Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Law 01-23-07, 08:39 AM	Hi guys, What is the general consensus of what would happen to a dragonmarked heir of House Cannith, if he was found guilty of murder? - excorciation? - branded an outlaw? - exile? - mystical punishment? The books (S:COT & Dragonmarked) give the options listed above, but exorciation doesn't explicitly mention murder, and the other options seem to be aimed at "the common man" and not a dragonmarked heir. Thanks, Law
Nived 01-23-07, 10:30 AM	Before the last war? Probably tried under the Galifar code of law and treated accordingly. Guilty of murder is probably either execution or inprisonment. Now-a-days.... depends on how useful they are to the house. They could be transfered to an outpost in another country (Say from Karrnath to western Aundair) and pleasently forgotten about till the whole thing blows over. "I have no idea where Roland d'Valdis is, I'm sorry sir." Or they're caught and/or turned over to said lawful government for punishment. Think of it like a celebrity trial after that. Like when the Kenedy cousin killed his wife. Then it's whatever the lawful punishment of the land is. Scions of the houses will have the utmost defense (a squad of Sivis lawyers... there is nothing more terrifying) if there's even a chance of getting them off and saving face.... but if its obvious they did it... they're probably cut loose and the house tries to distance them as much as possible. Just like real corporations! I'm sure there's an entire wing in the Dreadhold for this sort of thing... or they're just executed like any other musderer.
Syltorian 01-23-07, 01:33 PM	Excoriation - that depends on relative importance of the murderer and the victim. If he killed someone important (a royal prince, someone whose friend or relative has placed an important contract with Cannith, someone with a huge popular following), than it will probably be excoriation. If he himself is Merrix' brother, maybe he'll just be send somewhere else to let things cool down. If he murdered a fellow house-member, then he would probably be excoriated, because you do not kill family. In general: if his deed harms the house more than keeping him in would benefit them, then he'll probably be sent off. It also benefits the House if the members are loyal, so defending someone against the outside is already going to help them. It will strengthen the bond of the House. If this can be done at little risk (if he killed someone in a random village, who will not be missed by many people of note), then I doubt Cannith would care about the greater ethical issues at stake. They do not seem to be overly concerned about these to begin with. So, you'd need more details. Was it cold-blooded, premeditated murder? Or an accident, case of mistaken personality? In the latter case, the House could come to an agreement that they talk to Jorasco for remedying the situation - but that's only if he gets a really good favour of his House, and he'll be spending a long time paying that one back. Otherwise, Sivis laywers, unless the House feels it needs to make an example and gain some good public opinion by showing they care for justice. Just too many factors involved here; the House will act on a case-by-case basis. As for execution: I doubt it. Unless it was the worst kind of murder, it will probably be imprisonment. Whether that is Dreadhold (Golden Ward is what Nived is thinking of), I doubt it. That's only for the worst kind of war criminals, not common murderers. Possibly he could get off with house arrest. But as I said: there is no direct murder > specific punishment. It all depends on the circumstances.
Nived 01-23-07, 01:49 PM	I never read the Dragon article on dreadhold so I don't know the Golden Wing I just assumed. Also I've had House Orien on the brain lately and I can only imagine keeping one of them in prison is a pain in the rear. I however, do think execution would be on the table. 100 yrs of war, adventurers who kill on a regular basis.... Eberron has proven not to be quimish about death. I imagine the death penelty would be on the table in any murder case. However we both neglected one alternative. Fines... I can imagine that sentance for d'marks would lean a lot less towards capitol punishment and more in the 'massive fines'/bribes catagory. Having served their 'debt' to society (and paying the king tens of thousands of gold) they get a walk.
Kreistor2 01-23-07, 02:13 PM	What would the House do? Turn over the criminal to face his crimes, I would hope. If they don't, in my campaign, they'll find the people at their gates, ready to ttear the House down. Dragonmarks may have power, but the French Nobility had power greater than individual commoners before the French Revolution. The British had their superior power, their Red Coats, during the American Revolution. And the Russian Nobility had the same. It was all for naught, in the end. The powerless, with their numbers, are the greatest power in this world. Armies cannot stand against the will of the people, unless they are willing to slaughter wholesale, which in the end, only inspires others to take up the cause. There are twelve other Houses perfectly happy to gain the good will of the people by ensuring that a power-mad House comes down, and oh, yes, we'll be certain to provide their services... There must be repercussions for violation of Law and/or defying the will of the people.
Cifer 01-23-07, 02:43 PM	Dragonmarks may have power, but the French Nobility had power greater than individual commoners before the French Revolution. The British had their superior power, their Red Coats, during the American Revolution. And the Russian Nobility had the same. It was all for naught, in the end. The powerless, with their numbers, are the greatest power in this world. On the other hand side, we have the peasant's war, the hungarian revolution of 1956 and several others which failed. Of course, openly defying the will of "the people" will draw consequences. However, House Cannith wouldn't need to do so. A good deal of the people won't care - that is, the people of about three nations (plus many people not inhabiting the Five nations). Then there is the question wherefrom the rest of "the people" would learn of the murder. Are the newspapers really independent enough to not be influenced by what the Houses want them to talk about and are they widespread enough to reach "the people"? And when the house really pours some ressources into the whole thing, what do you think would come out? The poor member of the house is a victim of a dreadful intrigue! Watch Commander Shiny - whose new aircoach is certainly not related to this at all - can testify that the evidence does not in any way lead to him. Anyway, he was seen in company of his house peers drinking at a Ghallanda tavern - oh, the youth. What, a beggar saw him at the crime scene? Now where would we get if we believed every beggar? And did you know by the way that the beggar in question was a known drunkard and drug addict? As long as a house doesn't want a criminal to be punished, he won't be. It's mainly a question whether it believes the campaign to prove his innocence worth the trouble.
(Psi)SeveredHead 01-23-07, 06:37 PM	I figure the House might try to bribe the judge/jury/marshall/whoever makes the decision, depending on whether they think the House member was valuable. There is no guarantee, however. (If a d'marked had a huge gambling problem and didn't do anything other than operate eldritch machines, and then committed a high profile rape and murder, I'm pretty sure the House would just turn them over and say "hey look, we believe in justice too." In other words, sometimes the House wouldn't interfere with justice.)
Nived 01-23-07, 06:40 PM	Well clearly its on a case by case basis. I'm just saying real world annalogies would be with corporate crime (someone lower on the totem pole takes the fall for something the board was clearly in on) Or celebrity crime.
goblin_pride 01-23-07, 08:40 PM	There must be repercussions for violation of Law and/or defying the will of the people. Doesn't the treaty of Korth give the D'marked houses a form of diplomatic immunity? A murderer from a D'marked house would just be shuffled off to another country without having to worry about punishment for their crimes unless they were extremely heinous and/or worrisome to the house in question. It's no different than a Jorasco healing occupying troops, Ghalladra sheltering and feeding enemies of a given state, Cannith selling arms and armor to both sides and the two Spy houses stealing secrets for both sides, all of these are capital offenses under most legal codes but they were commonplace during the last war. The Nations accept that the D'marked Houses and their members are beyond reach because they need to be to be able to provide the services they do. I liken it a bit to the old ecclesiastic courts in the middle ages in Europe, a priest could be tried by the church's courts, but woe be unto the secular leader that would dare to try a priest.
Paranoia833 01-23-07, 09:04 PM	There must be repercussions for violation of Law and/or defying the will of the people. It's been said, but bears repeating, unless the murder is very public and the victim particularly well liked, "the people" as a whole probably wouldn't care. While the peasants of Eberron are considerably better educated and enjoy a better lifestyle than their historical counterparts, the average citizen is still reliant on word of mouth/the couriers guild for news/communication (Sivis message stones are only for the wealthy) and outside of very exceptional circumstances simply doesn't have the means to organise a large scale social movement. (Not to mention that Eberron isn't exactly the stuff of political science theses: For example, I'm still convinced that if it were to follow real world political trends Zilargo would destroy itself the first time it hit any kind of economic downturn). That said, given that Eberron seems to be undergoing the magical equivilent of an industrial revolution with a distinct middle class beginning to emerge, if one wanted to run a political campaign in that vein one could justify it easily enough. Heck I think there was a "communism on Eberron" thread where we discussed something like that. Anyway back to the topic! Personally I'd say it depends on if the crime coming to light would bring great embarrassment or economic difficulty to the House. If so it would probably be swept under the rug. The guilty family member would be quietly sent away (possibly excorciated depending on his/her position within the house) with a few bribes to the local authority to ensure criminal proceedings never see the light of day. If, on the other hand nothing could be linked to the house as a whole and the suspect was some unmarked in-law he'd probably just be turned over to the authorities for Galifar and excoriated/disowned if he's found guilty. If the victim was another family member it would probably be dealt with within the family, with the murderer being quietly killed off or excorciated depending on the circumstances. If the victim was from another dragonmarked house I imagine the suspect would be turned over to The Twelve, with a similar punishment if found guilty. If the victim was someone truly, truly important. If, say, our dragonmarked psychopath murdered King Boranel in a fit of insanity, the house would probably deal with him very publicly and painfully, in order to sate the mob's bloodlust and assure them that the house as a whole was unconnected.
Shady314 01-24-07, 04:10 AM	Doesn't the treaty of Korth give the D'marked houses a form of diplomatic immunity? Actually it seems to have done the exact opposite. It laid out the rules the Houses would agree to live by and what benefits the House would receive in turn. It bound them to the will of Galifar allowing them to be neutral entities but at the time the one nation they served was Galifar. I doubt Korth gave them immunity from himself. I'm sure a lot of it has been turned upside down now that's there's 4 different nations one of which isn't currently using the Code of Galifar. It's up to the DM how much leeway you think Korth was willing to grant them and what the current legal climate is like. Diplomatic immunity gives representatives of another nation immunity from prosecution within our own. (Which would be odd since at the time of the edicts there was one nation not 5) People can and have been tried within their own countries for crimes in another. It isn't a license to kill and do anything you want. In my personal opinion I do agree in general the DM house probably handles this all in house provided they can get to the suspect before local law enforcement. It seems like this is exactly what Dreadhold was created for. Politically sensitive criminals best forgotten but that you don't want killed since they are technically family. Excoriation is a necessity for severe crimes. You just can't have your house connected to something like that.
Shady314 01-24-07, 04:13 AM	Hi guys, What is the general consensus of what would happen to a dragonmarked heir of House Cannith, if he was found guilty of murder? - excorciation? - branded an outlaw? - exile? - mystical punishment? The books (S:COT & Dragonmarked) give the options listed above, but exorciation doesn't explicitly mention murder, and the other options seem to be aimed at "the common man" and not a dragonmarked heir. Thanks, Law Just to nitpick. Excoriation IS exile. :)
The Law 01-24-07, 07:01 AM	Just to nitpick. Excoriation IS exile. :) Not quite ;) Exile is mentioned in the S:CoT, and compared the the description of Excorciation in Dragonmarked, there are subtle differences. Don't have my books handy, so don't ask me for particulars :D
The White Sorcerer 01-24-07, 07:09 AM	I doubt Korth gave them immunity from himself. [SNIP] It's up to the DM how much leeway you think Korth was willing to grant them and what the current legal climate is like. FYI, Korth was the place where the Korth Edicts were signed. Galifar was the king who signed them.
Kid SixXx 01-24-07, 08:46 AM	Actually it seems to have done the exact opposite. It laid out the rules the Houses would agree to live by and what benefits the House would receive in turn. It bound them to the will of Galifar allowing them to be neutral entities but at the time the one nation they served was Galifar. Yep, House Deneith's Sentinel Marshals have the right to enforce the Code of Galifar across the borders in Khorvaire because the house itself is subject to the code.
Shady314 01-24-07, 09:39 AM	FYI, Korth was the place where the Korth Edicts were signed. Galifar was the king who signed them. :doh: The lesson here is always Proofread before you hit submit. :banghead:
Shady314 01-24-07, 09:50 AM	Not quite ;) Exile is mentioned in the S:CoT, and compared the the description of Excorciation in Dragonmarked, there are subtle differences. Don't have my books handy, so don't ask me for particulars :D That's ok. I had a little free time and thought this sounded interesting and found it on page 134 of S:CoT. It sounds like excoriation but for common folk. To paraphrase... A common alternative to long term imprisonment is to mark the convicted with a "pen of the living parchment" to indicate his status (it doesn't say but I'd assume it's in an obvious location) and exile him from Sharn or even Breland. If he returns he may be executed or sentenced to hard labor. Compared to excoriation where the entire services of a DM house are utterly lost to you forever. Other members can be excoriated merely for speaking to you. All the assets and resources you have tied to the house are gone and you can't set foot on their property. Sounds like the DM equivalent of exile. It'd be rather silly to exile a member from the Sharn enclave or something but keep him within the house. And if you want to hush it up marking them with the pen is an awful idea.
The White Sorcerer 01-24-07, 07:30 PM	:doh: The lesson here is always Proofread before you hit submit. :banghead: And knowing is half the battle, young padawan.:teach: