| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Edymnion04-16-07, 09:33 PM | Dragons of Eberron: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/eberron/957297200 Am I the only one thats a little worried by this line? "It introduces the continent of Argonnessen, homeland of the dragons, and describes various adventure sites and other places of interest that have never before been presented." Isn't Argonnessen supposed to be the place that nobody ever comes back from? Kinda hard to keep that pretense up when we're getting a book with ADVENTURE LOCATIONS in it. Or maybe its just me? |
| Lancer201004-16-07, 09:43 PM | I thought Argonesson was always more along the lines of, "Nobody goes there and comes back without the permission of the dragons, or if they've seen too much." That and if Keith has a large enough hand of it, I wouldn't be too worried. |
| NthDegree25604-16-07, 10:21 PM | Worried? Not at all. In my opinion, Argonessen was never truly meant to be left completely unexplored, and I'm glad we're finally getting to see at least a glimpse of it. |
| Belabras04-16-07, 11:28 PM | From what Hellcow has said about it so far I'm not too worried. Really looking forward to it actually. |
| Flame_Drake04-16-07, 11:51 PM | No offense meant by this Edy, I'm honestly curious: What were the last three Eberron books that didn't have something that worried you? I understand what your worried about and why, but at the same time, I've been hearing from Keith for months and months that hes been wanting to write about the various cultures of Argonnessen and I expect that this finally was his chance to do so. I'm expecting this one to be really good. Drake |
| DBlizzard04-17-07, 12:08 AM | Isn't Argonnessen supposed to be the place that nobody ever comes back from? I don't think so. It just has that reputation. It's the place that no one is known to have back from (at least recently). If they do, they just aren't talking about it. Kinda hard to keep that pretense up when we're getting a book with ADVENTURE LOCATIONS in it. Or maybe its just me? A book about a place that adventurers don't go (or at least don't come back from) isn't going to be a very useful book. |
| MrFilthyIke04-17-07, 12:09 AM | In Soviet Argonessen, Dragons roll you... Well, dragons ALWAYS "roll you". ;) I'm not worried, plus having a Changeling Seren Barbarian in my group, I'm curious to see what they add that'll work in my game. :) |
| Millenia04-17-07, 12:49 AM | ]Isn't Argonnessen supposed to be the place that nobody ever comes back from? Nobody except for the PCs. ^_~ After all, going into a known dangerous and "no one ever came back" type of place and coming back out at ALL is rather heroic, don't you think? Not to mention that the dragons (especially the Chamber) would want to bring the PCs to Argonnessen for a certain task or something else.... Though there is the possibility that the adventure sites mainly deal with the coastal area of Argonnessen, and thusly with the Seren barbarians and such. Kinda hard to keep that pretense up when we're getting a book with ADVENTURE LOCATIONS in it. Or maybe its just me? It's just you. ^_^;; |
| Bluebrush04-17-07, 06:21 AM | Well, before Secrets of Sarlona came out I had pretty much the same image of Rideria. How can you adventure in a land with big brother-esque security, a fanatically loyal populace and, for that matter, utterly flattened and dull society. It was later pointed out to me that, from a game design perspective, it's pointless putting a whole continent down and not having it be interesting. So I'll expect that while it will be difficult to dodge the Seren guardians and hide from the more territorial dragons, rare and unique individuals will be able to get in, see all the cool stuff, and possibly get back home to tell the tale. Also, it's going to be pretty boring if Argonessen is just wall to wall dragons. There's bound to be more cool civilisations there, even if they do just live under the shadow of the dragons. As a sub-point, this is Dragons of Eberron, not Secrets of Argonessen, so it may be a while before we get a book telling us how to get to Argonessen and where the best tourist spots are. I'm not worried, plus having a Changeling Seren Barbarian in my group, I'm curious to see what they add that'll work in my game. :)Oddly I was thinking of playing a Seren changeling barbarian the other day... How's that working out for you? |
| Thanqol04-17-07, 07:26 AM | Oddly I was thinking of playing a Seren changeling barbarian the other day... How's that working out for you? <.< Creeeepy. I'm playing with one right now >.> |
| Kid SixXx04-17-07, 07:27 AM | Dragons of Eberron: Isn't Argonnessen supposed to be the place that nobody ever comes back from? Kinda hard to keep that pretense up when we're getting a book with ADVENTURE LOCATIONS in it. Or maybe its just me? I think it's just you. ;) If anyone should return from someplace that no one else returns from, I think it should be the heroes of the setting, namely the PC's. Dragons of Argonessen arguably could shut the yaps of detractors that seem to believe that Eberron has no framework for high level or epic play. At the very least it'd give up & coming Seren barbarians that somehow invariably start their careers off in Sharn a book to use to polish up their backstories. |
| polt04-17-07, 07:27 AM | Really, it sounds like "Secrets of Xen'Drik" only with dragons. And that book sucked, so I think I'm not going to pick up this one. Really I think the quality of the books becomes worse and worse. The campaign setting itself is awesome. Sharn is pretty good. Five Nation was okay, but the rest of the books I've read? SUCKED. Was NOT worth the money. |
| Nlogue04-17-07, 07:53 AM | Dragons of Argonessen arguably could shut the yaps of detractors that seem to believe that Eberron has no framework for high level or epic play. All I can say is - Oh, yes sir, it certainly will. :) |
| Nlogue04-17-07, 07:54 AM | Really, it sounds like "Secrets of Xen'Drik" only with dragons. I promise you it is not. The book covers the dragons of Eberron...everywhere. I think it is pretty frikking cool, but then again I'm biased. ;) |
| polt04-17-07, 08:22 AM | Well, Secrets of Xen'Drik had those adventurelocations, and that was terrible. I might be thinking of Explorers Handbook though... I still remember the Dragons of Eberron Dragonshard, that was really bad. The cool thing Eberron did to dragons was to make them more than monsters, they made them almost what god is in Forgotten Realms for example. They were exactly how I always pictured dragons should be. But then that stupid Dragonshard began talking about rogue dragons and stuff like that, which when you read between the lines is a way of saying "But if you like how dragons was before, and wants them as monsters with phat l00t, then you can still have that." |
| Sereno04-17-07, 09:23 AM | But then that stupid Dragonshard began talking about rogue dragons and stuff like that, which when you read between the lines is a way of saying "But if you like how dragons was before, and wants them as monsters with phat l00t, then you can still have that." Which was, however, a direct response to the criticism that what's the point of a game of Dungeons and DRAGONS if there are no dragons for players to ever encounter, fight or (possibly) defeat? Personally, I've found using Eberron dragons *more* interesting than the "big fat lizards sitting on a pile of loot waiting for death at the hands of PCs" dragons of other campaign settings. Especially, the way you can weave the active Chamber dragons and the Draconic Prophesy into just about any plot you might want! However, there are a LOT of gamers who aren't interested in the "noir" aspect of Eberron and for the dedicated hack-n-slasher, a CS without fightable dragons is a loser.... |
| polt04-17-07, 09:39 AM | I know, but it still ruins the crediblity of the series for me when they go "Yeah, we changed this, so now it works like this, isn't it cool? But if you liked it better the old way, you can still do that, so really, we didn't change anything, we just added something." I like change. If I want all the old D&D stuff, I'll go play that. Make a setting and stand by it. Just compare the power level in the ECS, with the books afterwards. It's going up. I just wonder how long it'll take them to introduce a city of halfings where they're all tricksters and happy-go-lucky rogues. |
| RageMage04-17-07, 12:04 PM | All I have to say is: Races of Dragon, Dragon Magic, and Draconomicon. Well, that and an elaboration. Dragons are such an icon in D&D (being part of the name and all) that more than enough space is going to be spent on them. Hell, there are dragonshards and dragonmarks in Eberron. My first reaction to this is that it might give you something a little meatier if you read any of the aforementioned books and want to do something with them within the realms of Eberron. |
| polt04-17-07, 12:06 PM | Well, dragonshards and dragonmarks doesn't really have anything to do with dragons. Not directly at least. It's more because of legend and magic and people associate that with dragons. |
| Edymnion04-17-07, 12:24 PM | No offense meant by this Edy, I'm honestly curious: What were the last three Eberron books that didn't have something that worried you?Lets see, Dragonmarked and Faiths of Eberron spring to mind, but thats only two. If we ignore the horrible, horrible sidebars, Players Guide to Eberron makes three. |
| polt04-17-07, 12:27 PM | Of course people will think there's something wrong with the books. Sometimes it's just that you don't like the idea, but when they actually contradict and change stuff from the campaign setting? That's just stupid. I mean look at this forum, there's almost always a large group of people who finds obvious flaws within a week of the books release. How hard can it be to get factual data right? When it's supposed to be low power, when it says in the book that there's not supposed to be a guy who can ressurect people in every city, THEN WHY DO THEY PUT ONE THERE?! And there's tons of examples where the writers just got the setting wrong, and it's something a large percentage of peopel agree with. |
| MrFilthyIke04-17-07, 12:52 PM | Oddly I was thinking of playing a Seren changeling barbarian the other day... How's that working out for you? Pretty good actually, but definately not a min-max combo. He is the group linguist though. :) He went with that combo, as the player wanted to play a Warp-Spasm-Slaine-style Seren barbarian. So he's running a home-brew barbarian class that warp-spasms. So, the "human" flips out, twists into painful shapes, eyes nearly exploding, scales of his dragon totem sprouping on his body...I upped the Str bonus, but he's Exhausted afterward. It's balanced out ok so far. :) |
| Nundahl04-17-07, 03:16 PM | How hard can it be to get factual data right? Well it's not really "factual" now is it? Sorry, just giving you a hard time. I do, for the most part agree, there are some glaring issues that make me ... well angry isn't the right word, but just frustrated. As the DM, I get to make the world, so I take a little of this, a little of that from the books. If there is a contradiction, I pick which one I want to be true (thus far my general ruling being to err on the side of Keith 9 times out of 10). What bothers me is how confusing it is to the players, I make plans, they are browsing through source books and find a line that contradicts my plans, and then they call me on it later. Only for me to say, "no, in the ECS it says ..." and the back and forth begins. Not arguments, just time eating discussions I'd rather avoid. Wizards is pumping out books a little too fast and failing in the editing department ... oh yes WotC, we love your products, this is no veiled threat at "leaving" your fanbase, but we notice, respect us, take care of us ... edit the books just a bit closer! |
| Romulus LoneWolf04-17-07, 07:29 PM | Nobody except for the PCs. ^_~ After all, going into a known dangerous and "no one ever came back" type of place and coming back out at ALL is rather heroic, don't you think? Just what I was thinking. After all, it's only "A place no one ever comes back from" until someone finally does. And after all, your PCs are better then those other explorers, right? |
| DragoonDarkfire04-17-07, 07:43 PM | Well, Secrets of Xen'Drik had those adventurelocations, and that was terrible. I might be thinking of Explorers Handbook though... I still remember the Dragons of Eberron Dragonshard, that was really bad. The cool thing Eberron did to dragons was to make them more than monsters, they made them almost what god is in Forgotten Realms for example. They were exactly how I always pictured dragons should be. But then that stupid Dragonshard began talking about rogue dragons and stuff like that, which when you read between the lines is a way of saying "But if you like how dragons was before, and wants them as monsters with phat l00t, then you can still have that." That's like saying all aberrations are the creations of Xoriat. |
| DyloniusFunk04-17-07, 07:55 PM | With every new book they release the veil of secrecy is being slowly lifted. I remember in the ECS it was implied that Seren were all over the coast and anyone whoe ven saw Argonassen was chased down and killed. And only one professor ever made it back. Explorers Handbook comes along and we find out that the Seren aren't that bad if you have a Dragon marked person in your group, giving the chance for DM's to open the continent up for adventures. Sarlona of course is another example and slowly Xendrix is being revealed. A lot of that came from Explorer's Handbook which is one of the few books in the setting i would call DM primary. There are some PrC and stuff for players but a lot of it is world building materials and easy adventure hooks and locations. But now we're getting more specific books that are going to focus more on these other continents. These places will never be fully opened up they're just to big. Hell FR is over 20 years old and they have barely touched parts outside Fearun. |
| Hellcow04-18-07, 05:14 PM | First off: As others have said, this is NOT Secrets of Argonnessen. It's Dragons of Eberron. It's a book that explores the role dragons play in ALL of the cultures and continents of Eberron... and this covers a vast spectrum. The Storm Guardians of Adar. The manipulators of the Chamber. The unseen forces of Argonnessen. And those dragons who choose to act on their own. People have hit it on the head. Secrets of Argonnessen would be a lousy book because the continent is so far beyond the capacity of most characters. DoE does include ideas for adventuring in Argonnessen, but it's still the land no one returns from. But PCs are remarkable people. So you're epic level? Think you're a big shot? Well, do you think you can be the first humanoids in known history to venture into Argonnessen and return? Beyond this, the Dragons of Argonnessen chapter is about far more than adventuring IN Argonnessen. This is the homeland of the dragons - the oldest mortal race in Eberron, a force of tremendous power and intelligence. But they're not a hive mind. They're not a monolithic force. So what are the powers of Argonnessen? The Chamber is the MOST active force beyond the borders of Argonnessen, but there are others - and these could influence adventurers that never go into Argonnessen itself. Anyhow, I'm happy with how the book turned out. It may not be to everyone's tastes, but I think it adds a level of depth and makes dragons live up to their promise in the world - emphasizing that they AREN'T simple monsters, that they are complex and powerful creatures with a vast array of interests and roles to play. |
| Amaril04-18-07, 05:24 PM | So you're epic level? Think you're a big shot? Well, do you think you can be the first humanoids in known history to venture into Argonnessen and return? Sure, why not? After all, if the 9th-level PCs in Eyes of the Lich Queen can do it... |
| Hellcow04-18-07, 05:27 PM | Personally, I've found using Eberron dragons *more* interesting than the "big fat lizards sitting on a pile of loot waiting for death at the hands of PCs" dragons of other campaign settings. And you'll never see such a dragon in my campaign. To quote that Dragonshard... A rogue wyrm is the best choice for a traditional draconic villain. No tears will be shed or demons unleashed if the creature is destroyed. But both DM and party should always consider the cunning of the dragon. Part of the creature's power is its intelligence, and a dragon rarely allows itself to be taken by surprise. Dragons are not simply monsters: They are the children of sky and earth -- the legacy of the first age of Eberron. An encounter with a dragon -- rogue or not -- should always establish the power and majesty of these creatures, and it should always be a significant event. I don't want every dragon to be part of the Chamber, or any other organizations. Dragons are free-willed, mortal creatures, capable of having many different desires. But they are also among the most powerful and intelligent beings in Eberron. I'll never run an adventure where you get into a fight with a dragon "because it's just hungry". If I've got a dragon in Khorvaire, I want to know why he's there. I want to know the role he's played in history. Has he been manipulating the local priests of the Sovereign Flame for centuries? Did he kill the third prince of Thrane in the infancy of Galifar? Was he banished from Argonnessen, and if so, why? If he's got a hoard, where did those treasures come from? Does he have the sword of the third prince of Thrane... and if so, are there going to be people who want that back? I don't want every dragon to be part of the Chamber. Getting into a war with the Chamber is a VERY dangerous game for adventurers to play. But that doesn't mean that rogue dragons are "big fat lizards waiting to die." |
| Hellcow04-18-07, 05:29 PM | Sure, why not? After all, if the 9th-level PCs in Eyes of the Lich Queen can do it... I didn't work on EotLQ. I did write the bulk of the Argonnessen chapter in DoE. I'll leave it at that. (No offense meant to any of the authors of EotLQ - just saying that I've written DoE with my vision of Argonnessen in mind, and there may be differences between the two.) |
| davethebrave37104-18-07, 09:46 PM | I didn't work on EotLQ. I did write the bulk of the Argonnessen chapter in DoE. I'll leave it at that. (No offense meant to any of the authors of EotLQ - just saying that I've written DoE with my vision of Argonnessen in mind, and there may be differences between the two.) EotLQ has you go there essentially at the behest of a Chamber agent, and likely with the knowledge of the Chamber. There are, however, barbarian tribes inland which kind of confused me. Granted it's only a bay, but it's not Seren, it's much more north-east of there, which I find kind of odd now that I think about it...hmmm...Mr. Logue, you're posting in this here thread. Thoughts? |
| Vharuck04-18-07, 09:53 PM | Don't worry Edy, just think of it like it were any Forgotten Realms book: Useful only if you're playing epic characters. :P |
| Hellcow04-18-07, 09:59 PM | Useful only if you're playing epic characters. :P While this may just be a joke, it's not actually the case. IMO, Argonnessen is no place for low-level characters. But again, the book is about far more than Argonnessen. Are you standing in Sharn? The dwarf next to you might be an agent of the Chamber, or for that matter a rogue dragon with an interest in House Kundarak. Either way, his role in the adventure isn't going to involve combat... but we're back to the fact that dragons in Eberron ARE more than fat lizards waiting for adventurers to come along and beat them up. There's all sorts of roles for dragons in a campaign, and DoE explores a host of them. |
| Splendide04-18-07, 10:13 PM | Any dragons in Zilargo? |
| TheAnthroDM04-18-07, 10:22 PM | I'm no more worried about this than I was about the Secrets of Sarlona book. |
| davethebrave37104-18-07, 10:39 PM | I'm generally about as excited and expectant about future Eberron books as Edy is worried about them. |
| AntiSean04-19-07, 12:03 AM | Any dragons in Zilargo? Heck no, even the dragons are afraid of the gnomes! |
| TheAnthroDM04-19-07, 12:07 AM | Heck no, even the dragons are afraid of the gnomes! I dun blame them, I wouldn't want an Elemental bound to my face in my sleep. :D |
| Belabras04-19-07, 12:59 AM | First off: As others have said, this is NOT Secrets of Argonnessen. It's Dragons of Eberron. It's a book that explores the role dragons play in ALL of the cultures and continents of Eberron... and this covers a vast spectrum. The Storm Guardians of Adar. The manipulators of the Chamber. The unseen forces of Argonnessen. And those dragons who choose to act on their own. People have hit it on the head. Secrets of Argonnessen would be a lousy book because the continent is so far beyond the capacity of most characters. DoE does include ideas for adventuring in Argonnessen, but it's still the land no one returns from. But PCs are remarkable people. So you're epic level? Think you're a big shot? Well, do you think you can be the first humanoids in known history to venture into Argonnessen and return? Beyond this, the Dragons of Argonnessen chapter is about far more than adventuring IN Argonnessen. This is the homeland of the dragons - the oldest mortal race in Eberron, a force of tremendous power and intelligence. But they're not a hive mind. They're not a monolithic force. So what are the powers of Argonnessen? The Chamber is the MOST active force beyond the borders of Argonnessen, but there are others - and these could influence adventurers that never go into Argonnessen itself. Anyhow, I'm happy with how the book turned out. It may not be to everyone's tastes, but I think it adds a level of depth and makes dragons live up to their promise in the world - emphasizing that they AREN'T simple monsters, that they are complex and powerful creatures with a vast array of interests and roles to play. and that sounds like an excellent book. Looking forward to it. |
| taski04-19-07, 02:55 AM | I might have dismissed Dragons of Eberron (I'm tired of dragon-o-rama), but Hellcow's description makes it sound too interesting to ignore. I'll have to take a look at it. |
| Splendide04-19-07, 04:09 AM | Heck no, even the dragons are afraid of the gnomes!I hear that they just finished reconstructing a dragon skeleton in the Library's dracophysiology department :eek: |
| davethebrave37104-19-07, 12:23 PM | I hear that they just finished reconstructing a dragon skeleton in the Library's dracophysiology department :eek: I'm just wondering what the dracophysiology department needed to requisition that phylactery for... |
| From_Khyber04-19-07, 03:18 PM | I might have dismissed Dragons of Eberron (I'm tired of dragon-o-rama), but Hellcow's description makes it sound too interesting to ignore. I'll have to take a look at it. Seconded. While I'm moderately tired of the typical dragon-o-rama, Eberron dragons differ from the typical dragon-o-rama, which is why I'm looking forward to this book. Surely, there are books I'd rather see published (*cough* Monstrous Nations of Eberron *cough*), but the circumstances could be worse, I'd say. At least, Mr. baker is among the authors, so let's be thankful and see what's coming. Wouldn't be too worried, Edy! |
| Faithful_One04-19-07, 03:46 PM | I'm just wondering what the dracophysiology department needed to requisition that phylactery for... "Random" Gnome (and SO not a member of the Trust): Coffie cup. Yes, coffie. Nothing else. :incog: |
| Bluebrush04-19-07, 03:48 PM | "Random" Gnome (and SO not a member of the Trust): Oh . . .:thinks: we use that for . . . :lightbulb AS a coffie cup! Yes, coffie. Nothing else. :incog:Okay. Just watch out for dipsomancers. |
| CannibalSmith05-24-07, 01:13 PM | [..] the continent is so far beyond the capacity of most characters. If one's goal is just to go sightseeing, a mid-level druid could easily sneak about Argonessen taking form of inconspicuous animals, I guess. |
| Hellcow05-24-07, 01:34 PM | If one's goal is just to go sightseeing, a mid-level druid could easily sneak about Argonessen taking form of inconspicuous animals, I guess. You might. But are you SURE that the dragons - the creatures who taught magic to the giants, who in turn broke a plane off its axis - won't have ways to detect shapechanged creatures? Perhaps they have a warning system. Perhaps they've just seeded the borders with flying predators bred with true seeing. Mind you, I'm not saying that they have any of these things. But how badly do you want to play tourist? The legends are that people who go to Argonnessen don't return. Maybe that's just good PR. But are you sure you're ready to put it to the test? (Now, this doesn't necessarily add up with the presentation of Argonnessen in Eyes of the Lich Queen, but make of it what you will.) |
| Rechan05-24-07, 01:37 PM | You might. But are you SURE that the dragons - the creatures who taught magic to the giants, who in turn broke a plane off its axis - won't have ways to detect shapechanged creatures? Perhaps they have a warning system. Perhaps they've just seeded the borders with flying predators bred with true seeing. Mind you, I'm not saying that they have any of these things. But how badly do you want to play tourist? The legends are that people who go to Argonnessen don't return. Maybe that's just good PR. But are you sure you're ready to put it to the test? It's not so much that they HAVE this. But merely that they have the power and the intellect to do so. The possibility is more a threat than the actuality. Ultimately the question is: do you feel lucky, punk? |
| ChristopherGroves05-24-07, 01:46 PM | Lets see, Dragonmarked and Faiths of Eberron spring to mind, but thats only two. If we ignore the horrible, horrible sidebars, Players Guide to Eberron makes three. Oh wow ... Faiths of Eberron is on my list of "oops" books ... I'm only moderately worried ... and it isn't for fluff content - I can handle all manor of flavor. I just don't want some things that are as-yet unexplained to be explained. |
| Hellcow05-24-07, 01:50 PM | It's not so much that they HAVE this. But merely that they have the power and the intellect to do so. Exactly. You're rolling the dice - is it worth the risk? |
| Amaril05-24-07, 03:07 PM | Exactly. You're rolling the dice - is it worth the risk? Well, if you're a spellcaster who wants to become a dragon prophet (PrC), sure. |
| Elliot2205-24-07, 04:58 PM | I'm actually looking forward to this book, I love Dragons, and actually wanted to know more about some of the ones already mentioned. So to Hellcow can you just answer one questions. In DoE is there more information about the Dragon who taught the Orc's Druidic Magic? I love the Druid Class, and like Half-Orcs. So I wanted to know more about how the Gatekeeper Orcs got there magic, like why did a dragon know Divine magic, when they are Arcane (normally) creatures?.. So I just want to know if the Gatekeeper dragon (Cause I can't remember its name and don't have my books) is covered more in DoE? |
| Hellcow05-24-07, 05:12 PM | In DoE is there more information about the Dragon who taught the Orc's Druidic Magic? ...like why did a dragon know Divine magic, when they are Arcane (normally) creatures? Since I'm not involved in editing or development - and thus don't know exactly what will make the final cut - I'm afraid the best I can give you is a firm "Maybe". |
| CannibalSmith05-24-07, 06:08 PM | Exactly. You're rolling the dice - is it worth the risk? Unless dragons have really set up a huge security grid, there doesn't seem to be a substantial risk. My reasoning is that Argonessen is a huge continent (larger than Khorvaire) and I might travel hundreds of miles without seeing another intelligent being. |
| Vharuck05-24-07, 06:10 PM | Unless dragons have really set up a huge security grid, there doesn't seem to be a substantial risk. My reasoning is that Argonessen is a huge continent (larger than Khorvaire) and I might travel hundreds of miles without seeing another intelligent being. Then again, they've lived there since the beginning of Eberron and have access to epic level magic. Drawing upon folklore, most mortals in Eberron would consider it a possible theory that the dragons might have eaten the thirteenth moon as a midnight snack. |
| gelalshawr05-24-07, 06:22 PM | Unless dragons have really set up a huge security grid, there doesn't seem to be a substantial risk. My reasoning is that Argonessen is a huge continent (larger than Khorvaire) and I might travel hundreds of miles without seeing another intelligent being. Dragons are highly territorial, would be spread over the entirety of the continent, and have very enhanced senses not to mention access to divination magic, is it really so hard to believe that the only way you would manage such a thing is A:) you're very lucky and your DM has little to no imagination, or B:) you wander into the territory of a highly paranoid dragon that does have such a security grid in place |
| The Dreaming Duck05-24-07, 06:37 PM | Unless dragons have really set up a huge security grid, there doesn't seem to be a substantial risk. Of course there's a substantial risk. As Vharuck has pointed out, the dragons have been an intelligent, active civilization for over a hundred thousand years. For much of that period of time, they've possessed epic level magic that's far beyond the understanding of humanity. Their students - giants who don't have the intelligence or lifespan of an elder dragon - developed this magic into a tool that could break the orbit of planes, and that was presumably done in the course of only a few thousand years. Next to destroying a moon, I'd consider a continent-spanning "detect shapechanger" to be a relatively minor effect. I think the question is just how badly they want to keep visitors out. But for the sake of argument, let's set aside the epic-level "They have powers beyond human understanding" premise. OK, they can't track every shapeshifter on the continent. However... What are you hoping to find? Sure, the dragons may not have security covering every square inch of Argonnessen. But they undoubtedly WILL have security covering anything interesting. So any time you get close to anything that could be worth seeing, you're likely to run up against glyphs or warding or who knows what. The dragons have every reason to maintain security. The draleus tairn are dedicated to their destruction. The Lords of Dust are extremely powerful beings who hate the dragons. And the Aereni could always take the offensive. So you're likely to have at least a few dragons cruising the sky with true seeing or other divinatory magic at work. They may not be worried about some 6th level druid - but they'll spot you all the same. Beyond this, Hellcow made a very different suggestion... "Perhaps they've just seeded the borders with flying predators bred with true seeing." Dragons may have far better things to do that look for you. But Argonnessen is, as you say, a large place. With the vast amount of time and power at their disposal, the dragons could have created a buffer zone hundreds of miles wide around the edge of the continent and filled it with hostile creatures bred to serve as guardians (which is essentially the same trick they do with the Serens). So it's not magic. It's not a DRAGON that's going to be your downfall. It's going to be a pack of souped up wyverns enhanced to served as border guards. A capable party of adventurers can handle wards or fight wyverns. But a lone druid who's just gained wild shape can easily fall prey to the wyvern bred with true seeing/arcane sight/whatever the dragons have developed to keep the hostile draleus tairn from doing this over the last thirty thousand years. Personally, I think this is far more likely that the "continental ward". Hellcow didn't say that you couldn't go to Argonnessen - just that it's a challenge worthy of high level characters. The presence of magically bred guardians and wards is exactly the sort of the thing that would accomplish this - making it possible, but certainly not trivial. |
| The Dreaming Duck05-24-07, 06:41 PM | Dragons are highly territorial... And it's important to remember that you're not dealing with traditional dragons - you're dealing with the dragons of Eberron. The Chamber is proof that the dragons of Argonnessen can and do operate in concert... as is, say, the destruction of the giant civilizations of Xen'drik. It's not just a matter of whether random dragon X has put up security alarms; potentially, it's what nations of dragons have devised to protect their borders. |
| JiCi05-24-07, 06:51 PM | You're not going to live old if you begin to worry about an Eberron book. You should more about the fact that every main event in Eberron turns around the number 13, the most accursed number. I'm not worried a single bit about this book. It's Dragons of Faerun for the Eberron setting. Perhaps the locations that no one comes back from are actually elaborated dragon lairs, or dragon graveyards. Argonnessen is populated with dragons, so I don't expect to see humanoid settlements like Xen'Drik and Sarlona, but more lairs loaded with treasure. These beasts aren't that "in" into building massive castles and towers. Ok, the Observatory in the Explorer's handbook is an exception (perhaps Hellcow can enlighten me on this one) |
| Rechan05-24-07, 07:23 PM | Argonnessen is populated with dragons, so I don't expect to see humanoid settlements like Xen'Drik and Sarlona, but more lairs loaded with treasure. These beasts aren't that "in" into building massive castles and towers. Ok, the Observatory in the Explorer's handbook is an exception (perhaps Hellcow can enlighten me on this one) I don't. Detailing a lair and treasure implies that "Hey this is what your PCs can do", as that's what's expressed in the product. I just don't see that for an Eberron project. Besides. Adventurers going to Argonnessen, kicking in the door to a dragon's lair and taking its loot is a death sentence for a party. Even if they get away, the dragons would hunt them down. |
| WarlockDa05-24-07, 07:44 PM | (Now, this doesn't necessarily add up with the presentation of Argonnessen in Eyes of the Lich Queen, but make of it what you will.) Any suggestions for modifying this part to better fit the concepts for Argonnessen? |
| Elliot2205-24-07, 08:18 PM | Since I'm not involved in editing or development - and thus don't know exactly what will make the final cut - I'm afraid the best I can give you is a firm "Maybe". I'm really okay with that answer, cause you have at least given me hopes as to saying someone wrote something about it, so the dragon has a chance of making an appearance, even if it is a small one, though that is one of the main dragons covered in like three books (ECS, Faiths, and Player's Guide) so hopefully more information will show up to clear up what the Dragon actualy did, but who knows, one can hope! |
| Nevarre05-24-07, 08:23 PM | My only minor concern about the book is that, as interesting as it will be for me to read, it's not going to one I'll be able to make great use of as it concentrates on Dragons; rarely seen, powerful and enigmatic that they are. Dragons in Eberron ARE cool - none of those lazy gold-coin-pile-warming Smaug wannabees, and if this book is as good as it looks to be, I'm going to want to make good use of it. :) As I wrote though, it's only a minor concern, and it's not going to stop me from buying it. I AM glad is not a 'Secrets of Argonnessen' book though. Since it's 'D&D', I think we need a 'Dungeons of Eberron' to go with it! Filled with info about the ruins of old empires, Daelkyr 'prisons', etc etc. :) |
| davethebrave37105-24-07, 08:41 PM | Any suggestions for modifying this part to better fit the concepts for Argonnessen? Seconded. I mean, what's the deal with these tribes anyway? Fighting amongst themselves for draconic favour and territory? Sort of a broken barrier between Argonessen and the outside world, doncha think? |
| Rechan05-24-07, 08:57 PM | My only minor concern about the book is that, as interesting as it will be for me to read, it's not going to one I'll be able to make great use of as it concentrates on Dragons; rarely seen, powerful and enigmatic that they are. Dragons in Eberron ARE cool - none of those lazy gold-coin-pile-warming Smaug wannabees, and if this book is as good as it looks to be, I'm going to want to make good use of it. :) Realize that just because they are rarely seen does not mean that their actions are not rarely felt. From what I understand, Dragons are a lot like the Aurum, or Erandis d'Vol, or the Lords of Dust, or the Dreaming Dark. They have their fingers in a lot of pies, and they are manipulating things from behind the scenes. Agents of the Chamber, even dragons themselves, might meet the PCs, but they're not going to reveal themselves. The book will likely provide you plots that involve the Chamber, for instance, or plots that involve the Prophecy. |
| CannibalSmith05-25-07, 12:44 AM | And it's important to remember that you're not dealing with traditional dragons [..] No such thing. Of course there's a substantial risk. *snip* The arguments are compelling. Thank you. To sum it up, the dragons have enough resources to make entrance into Argonessen simply impossible. The question thus is just how paranoid are they really. An idea: they don't have any big spells or monsters set up. Instead they rely on the Prophecy. Namely: Player: "I want to go to Argonessen." DM: "Your character never existed because his grandmother died at the age of 3. Roll up a new character." |
| Rechan05-25-07, 01:21 AM | An idea: they don't have any big spells or monsters set up. Instead they rely on the Prophecy. Namely: Player: "I want to go to Argonessen." DM: "Your character never existed because his grandmother died at the age of 3. Roll up a new character." Dragons have access to time travel technology?! :eek: |
| Soltares05-25-07, 02:12 AM | I haven't read all of the Eberron stuff I own yet, so forgive me if this is answered somewhere and I didn't get to it yet, but do the Dragons of Eberron worship the traditional dieties, or eschew faith in anything stronger than themselves, or consider Eberron, Siberys and Khyber the only entities worthy of their respect (if not actual worship)? I was looking at playing a Spellscale in a convention game, and the Blood-Quickening Meditations are all centered on figures like Bahamut, Io, Aasterinian, Tiamat, etc. that aren't really relevant to the setting, which led to me wondering if the Eberron Dragons had their own dieties. Adapting the Spellscale to have only three Blood-Quickening Meditations, one each based on Siberys, Eberron and Khyber, could be interesting... |
| CannibalSmith05-25-07, 04:34 AM | Dragons have access to time travel technology?! :eek: Bah, no. I mean, that they use the Prophecy to predict of any future attempts to enter Argonessen and kill those people before they are capable of doing it. Or even better, they prevent such people from being born. I was looking at playing a Spellscale in a convention game [..] Don't. Spellscales (along with dragonborn and spawns of Tiamat) are utter nonsense per se. Not to mention there's no place for them in Eberron. Even half-dragons exist only as dragon disciples. |
| Fabius Maximus05-25-07, 06:50 AM | Don't. Spellscales (along with dragonborn and spawns of Tiamat) are utter nonsense per se. Not to mention there's no place for them in Eberron. Even half-dragons exist only as dragon disciples.You mean in your Eberron? I wonder how Vol came to be in your Eberron... |
| Amaril05-25-07, 07:17 AM | Don't. Spellscales (along with dragonborn and spawns of Tiamat) are utter nonsense per se. Not to mention there's no place for them in Eberron. Even half-dragons exist only as dragon disciples.I like them. Besides, as I understand it, spellscales are the physical manifestation of sorcerer blood. In any case, the spellscales' meditation concept could parallel the dragon prophet's (MoE) relationship with the constellations. |
| ArcTan05-25-07, 07:48 AM | Of course people will think there's something wrong with the books. Sometimes it's just that you don't like the idea, but when they actually contradict and change stuff from the campaign setting? That's just stupid. I mean look at this forum, there's almost always a large group of people who finds obvious flaws within a week of the books release. How hard can it be to get factual data right? When it's supposed to be low power, when it says in the book that there's not supposed to be a guy who can ressurect people in every city, THEN WHY DO THEY PUT ONE THERE?! There's a difference between having someone in every town who can cast resurrection and one person in the largest city in the world who can cast raise dead. And there's tons of examples where the writers just got the setting wrong, and it's something a large percentage of peopel agree with. Honestly, the only books I really think this is true of are books that aren't actually Eberron books -- the egregious examples are when Eberron's been mentioned in books like Monster Manual IV or Cityscape. Some of the actual Eberron books have been more spot-on than others, but I don't actually have any *major* complaints about any of them. This includes the books that some people seem to live to bash, like Races of Eberron or Player's Guide to Eberron. |
| ArcTan05-25-07, 07:54 AM | Which was, however, a direct response to the criticism that what's the point of a game of Dungeons and DRAGONS if there are no dragons for players to ever encounter, fight or (possibly) defeat? If your characters haven't become interesting and significant enough to draw the attention or even the hostility of the Chamber, you're clearly not trying hard enough. The more awesome the dragon, the more awesome the dragon encounter. If you *want* to have lame dragons for lame encounters because those are easier to justify and run, I guess that's cool, but it's not the best way to do it. Personally, I've found using Eberron dragons *more* interesting than the "big fat lizards sitting on a pile of loot waiting for death at the hands of PCs" dragons of other campaign settings. Especially, the way you can weave the active Chamber dragons and the Draconic Prophesy into just about any plot you might want! However, there are a LOT of gamers who aren't interested in the "noir" aspect of Eberron and for the dedicated hack-n-slasher, a CS without fightable dragons is a loser.... If you want to manufacture a reason to have a dragon just sitting around in a cave waiting to eat people, fine, go ahead. It seems to me like you're missing the point of trying a different campaign setting, then, sort of like trying to manipulate plot events in Eberron so that you can end up with Humans and Elves in an alliance against Orcs and Hobgoblins. |
| Amaril05-25-07, 09:04 AM | If you want to manufacture a reason to have a dragon just sitting around in a cave waiting to eat people, fine, go ahead. It seems to me like you're missing the point of trying a different campaign setting, then, sort of like trying to manipulate plot events in Eberron so that you can end up with Humans and Elves in an alliance against Orcs and Hobgoblins. That's not really fair. Running dragons differently isn't the only reason to play in Eberron. |
| The Dreaming Duck05-25-07, 10:25 AM | To sum it up, the dragons have enough resources to make entrance into Argonessen simply impossible. The question thus is just how paranoid are they really. Certainly. Which brings us back to the point that your adventurer doesn't KNOW how paranoid they are. Your original assessment could be correct. They might honestly not care if some druid cruises around in hawk form. However, they might - not because they care about the druid specifically, but because they're worried about elves or rakshasa, or because once you allow one druid to cruise around and return, ten more druids are going to want to do it, and soon you're the center of the shapeshifting mortal tourist trade. Something like seeding the borders with dangerous monsters would deal with low-level characters without requiring epic magic (well, except for producing the creatures to begin with) or any continuous effort on the part of the dragons (other than making sure adventurers haven't thinned down the population). It's also a form of border protection that adventurers can overcome - but something that will deter low-level characters. In any case, I think the point is that as a low-level adventurer, you don't know how paranoid the dragons are. You know that they are creatures of legend, who wiped out the civilizations of Xen'drik and defeated the rakshasa rajahs. You know Argonnessen is the dark space on the map. Do you really want to go there on (or as) a lark? Or do you want to wait until you truly have to for some reason? Until you have a Chamber agent as a guide? Until you're summoned there by the oldest dragon of them all? If Argonnessen is in this book, I assume it's going to suggest ways to have adventures there. But I'm guessing it will be consistent with the idea that this IS that dark space on the map, the land people know nothing about - a place even more isolated than Xen'drik and Sarlona. |
| Amaril05-25-07, 10:46 AM | Keith, I don't recall if I've asked you this question already (I think I asked Nic, though), but can we look forward to suggestions, sidebars, or deliberate inclusions of material from Dragon Magic and/or Races of the Dragon? |
| gelalshawr05-25-07, 02:27 PM | Don't. Spellscales (along with dragonborn and spawns of Tiamat) are utter nonsense per se. Not to mention there's no place for them in Eberron. Even half-dragons exist only as dragon disciples. That's only your opinion, anyone that wants to play a spellscale or whatever in their campaign is well withing their rights to do so. So, Soltares, re-writing the meditations based on the dragon prophet might work, or instead of changing anything, just assume that the names are ancient legendary dragons from long ago, instead of gods. |
| davethebrave37105-25-07, 02:37 PM | That's only your opinion, anyone that wants to play a spellscale or whatever in their campaign is well withing their rights to do so. So, Soltares, re-writing the meditations based on the dragon prophet might work, or instead of changing anything, just assume that the names are ancient legendary dragons from long ago, instead of gods. Actually, there are constellations which are named after the dragon gods in Eberron, and on page 130 of the ECS, it actually states that they are seen as Gods by the dragons (perhaps they are legendary dragons from the Age of Demons who transcended reality). I actually introduced the race, but in a fairly mundane way. In Karrnath, as guests in a general's mansion, there was a servant there who was just a low-level commoner. But he was a spellscale. At the time, the party included a pseudodragon psion who was intensely curious about anything draconic, and started asking questions. He had human parents who both served Karrnath in the war as arcane support. In game, they all puzzled over the oddity of his birth, and as far as they know he's a unique occurence. Every once in a while, I plan on seeding one or two of 'em in. For instance, they haven't been to Aundair yet. That's a nation where you'd find a few of 'em. I still want to make them extremely rare, and for the most part commoners or experts or magewrights who look a little different, but I actually enjoy using Eberron version of other races (for instance, the kenku aeries in all the major cities suggested in MM III are in my Eberron, and one player even played a changeling who had infiltrated the Starilaskur aerie and then been transfered to the Sharn aerie, only to join up with the Tyrants secretly before joining the party...they actually thought he was a kenku for a large portion of the game). |
| Hellcow05-25-07, 02:44 PM | I'm hesitant to say what will or won't be in the final book. As I said before, once it's out of my hands things can get removed or added; there's certainly, say, a few of my sections in PGtE that picked up new sidebars along the way. So for most things you'll just have to wait and see. With that said, I feel that I can say with some confidence that you'll finally get some explanation of the role of the dragon gods and the religious beliefs of Argonnessen. |
| Amaril05-25-07, 02:48 PM | I'm hesitant to say what will or won't be in the final book. As I said before, once it's out of my hands things can get removed or added; there's certainly, say, a few of my sections in PGtE that picked up new sidebars along the way. So for most things you'll just have to wait and see. With that said, I feel that I can say with some confidence that you'll finally get some explanation of the role of the dragon gods and the religious beliefs of Argonnessen. So you're not at liberty to say what was in the manuscript when it left your hands? |
| Hellcow05-25-07, 02:57 PM | So you're not at liberty to say what was in the manuscript when it left your hands? I'd rather not. If I say "My favorite part was the section on the War of the Mark", it sets up an expectation that it will be there, and leaves people feeling robbed if it's not. If I say "There's nothing on the War of the Mark" someone may say "Eh, then I'm not interested" - when in fact, an editor may have said "What this book really needs is more on the War of the Mark" and added something in. Beyond that, legally I doubt WotC wants me going into too much detail months before the book comes out. (With all that said, let me note that I'll be very surprised if this book has anything about the War of the Mark.) I'm certainly happy with the work everyone did on the book. I'd suggest you check the table of contents when it comes out (they often post those as previews, IIRC) and see if it's implied. |
| Amaril05-25-07, 03:00 PM | Curse you, Baker, and your little dog, too! |
| davethebrave37105-25-07, 03:29 PM | With that said, I feel that I can say with some confidence that you'll finally get some explanation of the role of the dragon gods and the religious beliefs of Argonnessen. That's awesome news. |
| Soltares05-25-07, 04:43 PM | That's only your opinion, anyone that wants to play a spellscale or whatever in their campaign is well withing their rights to do so. So, Soltares, re-writing the meditations based on the dragon prophet might work, or instead of changing anything, just assume that the names are ancient legendary dragons from long ago, instead of gods. That could be an idea, yeah. They've got Spellscales as an option in the Xendrik Expeditions RPGA games, which got me thinking about them. They wouldn't be my first choice to introduce to the setting, but the setting is robust enough that introducing things from non-Eberron books won't pop it like a ballon, I imagine. :) Khyber is a little easier to ponder, as there is a Dragon Below domain to give an overview of what sorts of things fit the concept (+2 Knowledge (dungeoneering), 3 / day modify a summon monster spell to summon a preternatural creature instead of a celestial or fiendish one, for instance). Eberron has become one with the world, so again, pretty easy to work around (+2 Knowledge (nature) checks, Augment Elemental 3 / day on any elemental summoned via summon monster or summon nature's ally). Siberys, I don't really know enough about to figure out an appropriate meditation for (+2 Knowledge (arcana) checks, Enlarge Spell 3 / day?). |
| PoeticJustice05-27-07, 01:41 AM | A few questions... Could either of the authors in this thread confirm that the book will include material found in Draconomicon? Will the book describe and give examples of the traits and conditions that set the Dragons of Eberron apart from the Dragons of Faerun, et al? Beyond evil Bronze Dragons and whatnot, I hope to see some good rogue wyrm action on par with the only real example, Vvavrak (sp?). |
| BrotherDog05-28-07, 04:00 AM | Curse you, Baker, and your little dog, too! He's even more fun as a DM I must say. ;;D I can't wait the next World D&D Day. |
| SSj3goblin05-29-07, 12:07 AM | Really, it sounds like "Secrets of Xen'Drik" only with dragons. And that book sucked, so I think I'm not going to pick up this one. Sums it up pretty much for me. A book of sample dragons and maps. I'm still saving money for faiths of Eberron, wich looks more useful. |
| Hellcow05-29-07, 12:37 AM | A book of sample dragons and maps. As someone who worked on the book, I'll simply say that there's a lot more to it than "sample dragons and maps." The only map I worked on was a map of Argonnessen. If you're not interested in using dragons in any possible shape or form, then this isn't the book for you. But one of the points of this book is that dragons come in MANY shapes and forms. It's not just about "Here's a gold dragon who lives in a cave. Here's a silver dragon who lives on a cloud." It's about the Chamber. It's about the Storm Guardians. It's about the forces in Argonnessen no one's even heard of. It's about history dating back to the Age of Demons, and the Prophecy that foretells the future. It still may not be the book for you... but it's hardly just "sample dragons and maps." |
| Hellcow05-29-07, 12:38 AM | Will the book describe and give examples of the traits and conditions that set the Dragons of Eberron apart from the Dragons of Faerun, et al? I'm not sure I understand your question, PoeticJustice. What do you mean by "traits and conditions"? |
| Arandmoor05-29-07, 01:53 AM | Also, it's going to be pretty boring if Argonessen is just wall to wall dragons. There's bound to be more cool civilisations there, even if they do just live under the shadow of the dragons. Isn't there suposed to be a Kobold nation or something on Argonessen? I thought civilized Kobolds or something were their stewarts or something... |
| From_Khyber05-29-07, 06:44 AM | It sounds to me like this book is gonna make dragons easier to adapt into our campaign. Dragons are mainly seen as high/epic-level encounters, that are best used for high/epic-level parties - while this may is true, Dragons of Eberron is gonna show us (methinks), how to adapt dragons into a, say, low/mid-level campaign without being some random encounter, that you just happen to stumble upon, while doing a dungeon crawl. I think dragons have a bigger influence on the world, than meets the eye. Any NPC could be a dragon with a hidden agenda, that may or may not impact on the world (or at least the life of your PCs) - keep that in mind. What makes me excited about this book is, that it's not just another or second version of Draconomicon, but actually a Dragons of Eberron book. Eberronian dragons differ remarkably from dragons from other settings, and this is what makes them (and this upcoming book) interesting. |
| davethebrave37105-29-07, 09:36 AM | Sums it up pretty much for me. A book of sample dragons and maps. I'm still saving money for faiths of Eberron, wich looks more useful. I don't know if you saw any of Keith's responses in this and other threads, and on his personal website a while back that said "This is not, I repeat not a Secrets of Argonessen." And on that point, I'd like to point out that Secrets of Sarlona was totally different from SoX, because they learned that people didn't like that format. So even if it was another Secrets of book, it'd be completely different from SoX. Side note: I personally had no problem with SoX's format, but I liked SoS's format way better. |
| polt05-29-07, 09:49 AM | SoX was useless if you ask me. I don't want a bunch of random locations. I want information about the world, and maybe some crunch. Locations I can come up with myself. Even better, read some books and movies and get inspirations from there. |
| Adamaro2305-29-07, 09:52 AM | I loved how SoX was set-up, but i also liked SoS, and Explorer's handbook... So any format's fine with me. I 'm really looking forward to it. I never really cared about dragons in D&D, so i never got the Dragonimicon, or Dragons of Faerun, or any other dragon-related book. So actually i can't wait because in Eberron dragons seem interesting, now just sloths who stay in dungeons with gold... So my thoughts? I'm not worried |
| polt05-29-07, 09:55 AM | So actually i can't wait because in Eberron dragons seem interesting, now just sloths who stay in dungeons with gold... Wanna bet this book introduces one or two of those guys? |
| Amaril05-29-07, 09:58 AM | SoX was useless if you ask me. I don't want a bunch of random locations. I want information about the world, and maybe some crunch. Locations I can come up with myself. Even better, read some books and movies and get inspirations from there. The problem is that Xen'drik is supposed to be a DM's sandbox, and Secrets of Xen'drik was intended to be a toolkit for that purpose. Personally, I think it succeeded in doing just that. If you want more definitive information about Xen'drik without creating your own content, then you're out of luck, and Xen'drik is not the location for you to have adventures. If you don't mind creating your own content, but have no need for a toolkit such as SoX because you can come up with it yourself, then SoX isn't targeted to you, and you have no need to purchase it. That doesn't mean it's useless, especially when others such as me find it valuable. |
| polt05-29-07, 10:00 AM | The problem is that Xen'drik is supposed to be a DM's sandbox, and Secrets of Xen'drik was intended to be a toolkit for that purpose. Personally, I think it succeeded in doing just that. If you want more definitive information about Xen'drik without creating your own content, then you're out of luck, and Xen'drik is not the location for you to have adventures. If you don't mind creating your own content, but have no need for a toolkit such as SoX because you can come up with it yourself, then SoX isn't targeted to you, and you have no need to purchase it. That doesn't mean it's useless, especially when others such as me find it valuable. If you don't want to create your own content, you can't DM for very long :D Seriously though, if you can't come up with your own content for Xen'Drik, I wouldn't buy the book if you want to use Xen'Drik and can't come up with your own content. Because there's not enough content in that book to really make a cool adventure if you ask me. Not if yuou don't want to come up with stuff your self. |
| Amaril05-29-07, 10:01 AM | Wanna bet this book introduces one or two of those guys? My impression is that Keith wouldn't waste time on that stereotype. Even if there were one or two mentions of that type of dragons, I don't think it would be criminal. |
| polt05-29-07, 10:03 AM | My impression is that Keith wouldn't waste time on that stereotype. Even if there were one or two mentions of that type of dragons, I don't think it would be criminal. He already introduced those kind of dragons in the Dragons of Eberron Dragonshard. |
| Amaril05-29-07, 10:06 AM | If you don't want to create your own content, you can't DM for very long :D Highly untrue. There's so much material out there, one could DM for a very long time without having to create too much. Besides, the point of SoX isn't to replace creating your own content, but to give examples and set pieces to inspire the DM or to include in the content created by the DM. In actuality, it's exactly that kind of tool that I enjoy using. My mind is way too preoccupied with bigger concerns in my personal and professional life such that I don't always have the free time to sit around and daydream about an endless list of new ideas, let alone detail them out. It's extremely helpful to have something that can act as inspiration and/or a basis for such ideas. |
| Amaril05-29-07, 10:08 AM | He already introduced those kind of dragons in the Dragons of Eberron Dragonshard. And I didn't think it was a bad thing. Sometimes a DM and players just want a dragon to slay and loot to steal. Eberron allows for that as well as for the more exotic roles of dragons. Just like how Eberron has dozens of dungeons for traditional dungeon crawls. It's not what defines Eberron, but it's not forbidden either. PS - I meant waste time detailing such examples, not just mentioning it. I'd also bet that there's at least some mentioning of the stereotypical dragon. |
| polt05-29-07, 10:16 AM | Highly untrue. There's so much material out there, one could DM for a very long time without having to create too much. Besides, the point of SoX isn't to replace creating your own content, but to give examples and set pieces to inspire the DM or to include in the content created by the DM. In actuality, it's exactly that kind of tool that I enjoy using. My mind is way too preoccupied with bigger concerns in my personal and professional life such that I don't always have the free time to sit around and daydream about an endless list of new ideas, let alone detail them out. It's extremely helpful to have something that can act as inspiration and/or a basis for such ideas. I disagree. If you want to make a game truly awesome, you have to tailor it to your players, and that means coming up with your own concept. And I totally agree that you ahve to get inspiration from somewhere, but that is why I think SoX is useless. It's not a very good book. If you want inspiration, watch movies, TV and read some of the awesome books out there. It doesn't even have to be fantasy. If inspiration is what you're looking for, there's so much better stuff out there than what's in SoX. |
| Amaril05-29-07, 10:25 AM | I disagree. Oh, well. I think you're misunderstanding me, and I'm not really inclined to elaborate further. Additionally, we're arguing over opinions rather than definitive facts. My players and I have a good time as is, and I find SoX to have value. Sorry you don't feel the same way. Just because you don't have much use for it doesn't mean it's useless altogether. I can think of thousands of products consumers buy on a daily basis. Just because I don't use it or have interest in using it doesn't mean they are useless. |
| Luis_Dragunov05-29-07, 12:18 PM | I've been playing in an Eberron campaign for a while now and, I've got to say, it's been a blast. I love every aspect of it, how it stands out from other settings by its sheer originality. Everything has a place in Eberron - and I don't mean that you can drop stuff in it, I mean that everything does have a place amid the world of Eberron, from magic to psionics, to obscure races from other supplements. And one thing I like the most is taking dragons and making them what they're supposed to be: inscrutable creatures of power and wisdom who see beyond the mortal world, gazing at the mysterious Prophecy in every raindrop. My only concern about Dragons of Eberron is that it won't do them justice. If I open that book and I see the mighty drakes, of epic arcane prowess, laying on piles of man-made coins and living in damp caves, I'm going to take enough acid to erase such information from my mind. Seriously, the great dragons of Eberron, descendents of Syberys, watchers of the Prophecy, the unseen instigators of mortal nations, teachers of arcane and divine magic, masters of Argonessen, living in caves and sleeping on piles of riches, would be a travesty. In my own mind I see Argonessen as a vast land pelted with titanic constructions of draconic spires and castles, whole mountains carved into observatoriums of the celestial dome, ample cities where drakes commune - not an empty expanse filled with thousands of caves where dragons, like in any other setting, simply hunt for sheep, slap eachother silly and keep their lair filled with tiny coins while proclaiming such heights of power. |
| The Dreaming Duck05-29-07, 12:40 PM | ...not just sloths who stay in dungeons with gold... He already introduced those kind of dragons in the Dragons of Eberron Dragonshard. Not in the Dragonshard I read. Yes, he says "Here is the lone dragon the adventurers may seek -- the deadly creature lurking in its hidden lair, gathering a hoard in the darkness." But now let's put that in context. Not all dragons have an interest in the Prophecy or in fighting demons. Dragons are free-willed creatures, and they possess all of the myriad personality traits that can be found in humanity. While most are content to live in Argonnessen, a few reject the society of their own kind. Some simply wish to be alone, far from the watchful eyes of the dragon elders. Others may wish to pursue arcane experiments forbidden by the rulers of Argonnessen, or to enjoy pleasures that can be found only in human lands. Whatever their reasons, such dragons exist across Eberron. Here is the lone dragon the adventurers may seek -- the deadly creature lurking in its hidden lair, gathering a hoard in the darkness. While the rogue wyrm may fill the image of the isolated dragon, remember the cunning and genius of dragons... Adventurers might stumble onto a rogue wyrm by accident; battling a thieves' guild, they could be taken by surprise when they discover the true power behind the organization... A rogue wyrm is the best choice for a traditional draconic villain. No tears will be shed or demons unleashed if the creature is destroyed. But both DM and party should always consider the cunning of the dragon. Part of the creature's power is its intelligence, and a dragon rarely allows itself to be taken by surprise. Dragons are not simply monsters: They are the children of sky and earth -- the legacy of the first age of Eberron. An encounter with a dragon -- rogue or not -- should always establish the power and majesty of these creatures, and it should always be a significant event. So. Remember the power and majesty of dragons. The dragon isn't a sloth sitting on a pile of gold. He's a genius pursuing arcane experiments forbidden by the Chamber, or the mastermind pulling the strings of a powerful guild or conspiracy. Like I said, if you see Baker as encouraging the "Boring dragon sitting around waiting to be killed" stereotype, we've been reading different articles. Beyond that, did you read Hellcow's last post on this thread? It's not just about "Here's a gold dragon who lives in a cave. Here's a silver dragon who lives on a cloud." It's about the Chamber. It's about the Storm Guardians. It's about the forces in Argonnessen no one's even heard of. It's about history dating back to the Age of Demons, and the Prophecy that foretells the future. It seems to me you're awfully quick to dismiss this book as a SoX clone or collection of useless dragons, when the authors - the people who actually know what's in the book - keep saying otherwise. |
| polt05-29-07, 04:11 PM | I don't think everything has a place in Eberron, I think everything can have a place in Eberron. |
| WarlockDa05-29-07, 07:04 PM | Any suggestions for modifying this part to better fit the concepts for Argonnessen? Didn't know if you missed this one Keith,...just curious on what advice you have for EotLQ since my group will be starting part two in a few weeks, and sadly DoE won't be in our hands by then :| I know alot of posters are likely running the same adventure and would love to get some advice to really make it fit better with your vision on Dragons in Eberron. (Or should this be better handled in a new thread?) |
| Hellcow05-29-07, 07:19 PM | Didn't know if you missed this one Keith,...just curious on what advice you have for EotLQ since my group will be starting part two in a few weeks... The embarassing truth is that I haven't gotten my hands on EotLQ yet. My recollection is that it involves... ... arriving on Totem Beach and venturing into the interior quite some distance. One thing I'd say is to simply reduce that distance. The dragons do essentially have a "buffer zone" that's chock full of hostile creatures and intended to weed out weaker intruders. My recollection is that if you go strictly by the maps, the target location in EotLQ is hundreds of miles into the interior. If you push it closer to the shore and say that it's an old, long abandoned location now in that buffer zone, then it's not that unreasonable for it to be something where you can dart in, reach it, and leave. You never actually cross that buffer zone into places the dragons really care about. If you are crossing a distance of hundreds of miles and spending an extended amount of time on the continent - well, I can't go into the consequences of that (or what else you might encounter) without touching further on the book. But push the target close to the shore and it's plausible. Beyond that, Nic is probably a better person to ask, since he worked on both. |
| WarlockDa05-29-07, 07:33 PM | Thanks a ton Keith :) |
| PoeticJustice05-29-07, 10:44 PM | I'm not sure I understand your question, PoeticJustice. What do you mean by "traits and conditions"? I am more than happy to clarify. Beyond alignment, dragons normally exhibit traits that add character to their species. Green dragons are imperious, white dragons are savage, bronze dragons are warlike, etc., etc. Although it's stated in the ECS quite clearly that it's possible to have an evil silver dragon, would that silver dragon, by nescessity of being a silver dragon, enjoy taking humanoid form to walk among mortals or form alliances to protect itself and its interests? In short, do the dragons of Eberron totally diverge from the grounded prototypical assumptions we have regarding them? Also, Draconomicon support? Fang Dragons, maybe? I think it'd be cool. |
| ORC_Paradox05-29-07, 11:56 PM | The Dragons of Eberron never worry. :P |
| Hellcow05-30-07, 12:07 AM | In short, do the dragons of Eberron totally diverge from the grounded prototypical assumptions we have regarding them? There are certainly factors in draconic psychology that are unique to Eberron, and this subject is covered. It's hard for me to say more than that right now. Also, Draconomicon support? Fang Dragons, maybe? I think it'd be cool. As I've said before, I'd rather not speak to specifics yet. As it gets closer to release (and when I see what emerges from editing and development), I'll be more comfortable addressing specifics. |
| polt05-30-07, 04:18 AM | I really think Dragons in Eberron should work kinda like gods in other settings. |
| Nlogue05-30-07, 05:15 AM | Didn't know if you missed this one Keith,...just curious on what advice you have for EotLQ since my group will be starting part two in a few weeks, and sadly DoE won't be in our hands by then :| I know alot of posters are likely running the same adventure and would love to get some advice to really make it fit better with your vision on Dragons in Eberron. (Or should this be better handled in a new thread?) Hmmmm...Keith seems to have the right of it there. Eyes Argonessen section deals mostly with things pre-existant of DoE as it was written a looooong time ago (an entire year ago actually)...but basically it draws a great deal from the extra details offered in the PGtoE about Argonessen. I would say the most important thing missing from Eyes (just no space for it really) is the travel from the Seren coast to Fang Crater and the Orrery there. The encounters listed in EoftheLQ won't do this trek justice in my opinion. DoE will greatly aid in this if memory serves. Though again, I am hesitant to share anything too much, because one is never sure what will make the final cut or be changed. My suggestion is to have Daros lead the PCs safe and secret ways across the land to avoid too many of the threats that should totally punk a party of their level (though it would be awesome for the PCs to glimpse great wyrms locked in territorial scuffles that shake the earth itself from afar...or even at one point have some huge monster that they can't defeat, like a super-advanced purple worm, start chasing the PCs only to be snatched up in the maw of a Collosal Red Dragon moments before the worm eats them. The red dragon ignores the insect like party and moves off to enjoy its meal). |
| Hellcow05-30-07, 11:35 AM | I really think Dragons in Eberron should work kinda like gods in other settings. Which, by and large, they do. The dragons of Eberron are largely mythic figures. They fought and bound mighty demon lords in the dawn of time; if they had lost this war, it's unlikely human civilization would even exist. It's worth noting that the gods of the Sovereign Host are often depicted in draconic form, indicating the awe in which humans hold these creatures. Through their knowledge of the Prophecy dragons shape the future, and in this they continue to battle the Lords of Dust to this day - a struggle in the shadows that few humans are aware of, though a handful of champions can be drawn into this conflict. Given the generally lower power level of Eberron, a great wyrm is as close to a god as most people can hope to meet; the Overlords of the first age may have a near divine level of power, but they are truly bound. And most of the great wyrms remain in Argonnessen, a realm most humans can never hope to see. Truly, Argonnessen is in effect Mount Olympus. People know that the "gods" live there. It's a place in the physical world. But you can't just go there for a casual stroll. Meanwhile, the younger dragons of the Chamber are essentially angels. They are the lesser emissaries of the gods. They, too, move unseen through the world shaping the lives of mortals. If and when they are forced into revealing their true form and doing battle, it's bad news for the foolish mortals who provoked them to it. And like the gods of many mythos, they could take a specific interest in a hero (as Hera aided Jason, for example), or decide to humiliate a hero who unwisely offends them. And whether you're dealing with rogue gods (say, Prometheus) or fallen angels, there are those who refuse to follow the rules of the heavens. These beings may seek to manipulate mortals, aid them in forbidden ways (Vvaraak), or they may simply wish to pursue their own agendas. As in the quoted section of my dragonshard, a dragon may secretly control a conspiracy or guild, or it may seek isolation for its own purposes. Nonetheless, it is a fallen angel - a creature of might and majesty, rarely seen by mortal eyes, and something that should never be taken for granted. As a mortal, you MAY stumble upon one hidden in Xen'drik or in the wilds of Sarlona... just as you could find a bound titan or a mighty jotun in other worlds, or for that matter a radiant idol flung from Syrania. But this is no trivial encounter, and the dragon will have its reasons for being where it is, whether it is an exile, pursuing forbidden work, a guardian (such as Rhashaak, a perfect example of a dragon from the ECS who is essentially in a lair with a hoard - not because he wants to live in a cave or cares about gold, but because his duty calls him there, and the gold is a sign of the devotion of his followers, which amuses him), or abroad from Argonnessen for some other purpose. Polt, you seem to be convinced that this book is somehow going to trivialize the role of dragons in the world. Nothing could be further from the truth. This book is about dragons of Eberron, who are as different from the dragons of other settings as the gods of Eberron are from their counterparts. It's also quite different from one continent to the next. In Khorvaire, dragons are typically hidden manipulators. In Xen'drik, they are more likely to be guardians or exiles in search of solitude. Argonnessen is a land of wonders, and it is a land OF dragons - because at the end of the day, dragons are mortal and have cultures of their own. But Argonnessen might just as well be Olympus - a land hidden from mortal eyes, populated by gods and angels. I'm going to stop posting, because I've really said all that I can at this point and I'm starting to repeat myself. So, to say it one last time, there's far more to this book than "sample dragons and maps". It's a book that provides new insight into the history of the world, and powerful forces that humans rarely see. It explores many different ways to use dragons, based on the style of a campaign and where that campaign is set; again, the motivations and actions of dragons in Khorvaire are generally quite different from those of the dragons of Xen'drik. But in each case it is an exploration of the unique place of dragons in the world and in history - not just "here's a monster for adventurers to kill." So if you have the opportunity, skim it when you see it on a bookshelf. If you have no interest in using dragons in your game in any capacity, it's a bad investment. But if you are interested in dragons in any form - as subtle manipulators, near-gods, or fearsome foes - I think you'll find something interesting to work with. |
| WarlockDa05-30-07, 05:21 PM | Hmmmm...Keith seems to have the right of it there. Eyes Argonessen section deals mostly with things pre-existant of DoE as it was written a looooong time ago (an entire year ago actually)...but basically it draws a great deal from the extra details offered in the PGtoE about Argonessen. I would say the most important thing missing from Eyes (just no space for it really) is the travel from the Seren coast to Fang Crater and the Orrery there. The encounters listed in EoftheLQ won't do this trek justice in my opinion. DoE will greatly aid in this if memory serves. Though again, I am hesitant to share anything too much, because one is never sure what will make the final cut or be changed. My suggestion is to have Daros lead the PCs safe and secret ways across the land to avoid too many of the threats that should totally punk a party of their level (though it would be awesome for the PCs to glimpse great wyrms locked in territorial scuffles that shake the earth itself from afar...or even at one point have some huge monster that they can't defeat, like a super-advanced purple worm, start chasing the PCs only to be snatched up in the maw of a Collosal Red Dragon moments before the worm eats them. The red dragon ignores the insect like party and moves off to enjoy its meal). This is why I love Eberron so much and why I've been able to seriously get back into D&D over the last few years, authors and designers that care enough, and love their product/campaign setting so much they'll give advice and help you envision it they way it was intended. Thanks to Nick and Keith both! |
| davethebrave37105-30-07, 07:17 PM | ...wow. Keith...just...wow. I am speechless. I have already stated I'm super pumped for this book, but now it's even moreso. |
| Gurv05-31-07, 08:47 AM | The Dragons of Eberron never worry. It just seems that way, Paradox. That's because by the time they do start to worry, you've been dead about a week, and the world is crawling with outsiders. Keith: Do you foresee a section in Dragons of Eberron that deals with what we've been discussing: methods the dragons use to prevent outsiders from intruding on their land? Whether it is some kind of epic barrier, or something a little more complex? I find the discussion rather interesting, as I have run games where several (near-epic) characters failed to even reach Argonnessan several times. They always tried to pit their own massive resources against what they assumed was "epic dragon magic", sneaking in under cover of antimagic fields, mind blank spells, or whatever else they could think of. They never did realize that the dragons had a week's notice of their arrival due to a simple spell called divination and a basic question like "Will anyone attempt to breach our defenses in the near future"? Follow a positive answer with a few more castings and questions like "Who?" and "Where?', and the dragons often had their agents in place before the plan was even hatched by the players. As a race obsessed with Prophecy, they had the basics mastered and could resort to high-level divinations when the circumstances warrented it. |
| davethebrave37105-31-07, 11:03 AM | They never did realize that the dragons had a week's notice of their arrival due to a simple spell called divination <snip> Nondetection covers that. If they can cast or buy mind blanks and antimagic fields, nondetection shouldn't be an issue. |
| Hellcow05-31-07, 11:17 AM | Keith: Do you foresee a section in Dragons of Eberron that deals with what we've been discussing.... I've really been pushing the limits of my NDA, and as I said, I don't want to discuss specifics. However, I think I can get away with saying that there IS a chapter about Argonnessen and the role it can play in a campaign... so make of that what you will. |
| Darakhoranon05-31-07, 01:05 PM | Dragons as being similar to gods on Eberron? And walking around for players to meet (maybe without them realizing it, but...)? Great, Keith, you just provoked another of those stupid "No FR gods in Eberron!"-"discussions"... ;) Iīm pretty sure SOMEONE will misunderstand your remark and quote it out of context... Concerning sneaking into Argonessen: Originally Posted by Gurv: They never did realize that the dragons had a week's notice of their arrival due to a simple spell called divination <snip> Nondetection covers that. No, it doesnīt. PHB, page 257: "The warded creature becomes DIFFICULT to detect... the caster... must succeed on a caster level check..." So it IS possible to use divination to learn about those adventurersī plans. A caster level check shouldnīt really be a problem for our scaly friends... |
| davethebrave37105-31-07, 08:36 PM | No, it doesnīt. PHB, page 257: "The warded creature becomes DIFFICULT to detect... the caster... must succeed on a caster level check..." So it IS possible to use divination to learn about those adventurersī plans. A caster level check shouldnīt really be a problem for our scaly friends... Point taken. I've just found I fail on that check versus my players more often than not. Unlucky dice. :( |
| Gurv06-01-07, 12:00 AM | Nondetection covers that. If they can cast or buy mind blanks and antimagic fields, nondetection shouldn't be an issue. Nondetection protects the subject from "spells such as clairaudience/clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells". The spell divination has a range of "personal" and a target of "you". Since it doesn't target the warded creature, nondetection doesn't help at all. Same applies to the other spells mentioned...just because you're part of the answer doesn't make you the target of the spell. |
| taski06-01-07, 03:03 AM | The Lords of Dust have been plotting against the Chamber for eons, I'm sure they'd have some useful ways of getting into Argonesson. Mind you, working with the Lords of Dust is probably less safe than sailing to Agonesson and painting "We Hate The Prophecy" on your sails in red dragon's blood while whipping up a dragons' egg omelet and feeding it to your pet tiger named Durastoran. |
| The Dreaming Duck06-01-07, 12:07 PM | The Lords of Dust have been plotting against the Chamber for eons, I'm sure they'd have some useful ways of getting into Argonesson. Maybe yes... maybe no. The dragons and Lords of Dust have been fighting for eons. The Lords of Dust are the force that the dragons actually see as a threat; humans and the like have been around for a very short amount of time, and are an annoyance more than anything else. As far as we know, this struggle has been a stalemate. We don't hear about the dragons launching attacks on Ashtakala; given this, I wonder if there's any reason to assume that the Lords of Dust have lots of back doors into Argonnessen. I'd suspect that the majority of the defenses of Argonnessen are geared AGAINST the force the dragons see as a threat - the rakshasa, the Undying Court - and that mere mortals would have an easier time because they might pass under this magical radar. The rakshasa rajahs can't be bound by normal means. But a regular rakshasa can be bound. Most great wyrms have the ability to cast 8th or 9th level spells - meaning a potential for trap the soul or imprisonment. Bumming around Khorvaire is safe for the immortal rakshasa. Going to Argonnessen is placing that immortality at risk - challenging creatures that have the ability to locate you and the potential to imprison you. If I was a rakshasa, I sure wouldn't take that risk casually... and is there anything the rakshasa REALLY need in Argonnessen? The Lords of Dust are powerful. According to Hellcow, the Council of Ashtakala has its epic casters. While they can be bound, they are otherwise immortal and can unleash lots of magical devastation. But I still see it as a case of the superpowers leaving each others' capitols alone and tangling in the neutral zone. The LoD stay out of Argonnessen and the Chmaber stays out of the Demon Wastes. They use the lesser races as pawns and tangle in wider Khorvaire and Xen'drik and the like. But I djust don't see te LoD larking around Argonnessen - and I'd expect there to be defenses geared to catch rakshasa that may not notice a mere human. |
| Nuclear_Buddha06-01-07, 03:33 PM | Nondetection covers that. If they can cast or buy mind blanks and antimagic fields, nondetection shouldn't be an issue. For the psi-savvy dragon, Metafaculty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm) beats all that stuff. Hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) would help, too. Surely a dragon could get their claws on these powers by some means. I always think of Metafaculty because it specifically says it beats some of the unbeatables like Mind Blank. |
| taski06-01-07, 08:38 PM | Dreaming Duck, I agree that the Lords of Dust wouldn't hop over to Argonesson for nothing, and that the majority of their cold war would be fought on neutral and semi-neutral ground. However, I don't think either side would ignore the importance of discovering the enemy's plans before they're put into action. Divination and psionics can only go so far, and versatility is key in a shadow war. A certain level of mundane sneakiness can be very useful... even if it means bribing humans (or even dragons!) to get into the Chamber's halls. I wouldn't be surprised, either, if the Chamber had bought one of the rakshasas at Ashtakala. You don't always have to kick down the door yourself to get what you want. During our cold war on Earth, both Washington and Moscow were very well defended, and neither side launched an all-out attack on either city. But that doesn't mean spies weren't crawling around on the streets. They had to invest in counter-intelligence operations because there were spies crawling around. And that didn't stop the spies from coming -- both sides still couldn't afford to be surprised by an unexpected move. That's the situation I imagine for the Chamber and Lords of Dust: a stalemate in a win-or-die game. If they sit on their tails and do nothing, they'll quickly lose everything. |
| Hellcow06-01-07, 09:27 PM | The spell divination has a range of "personal" and a target of "you". Since it doesn't target the warded creature, nondetection doesn't help at all. Same applies to the other spells mentioned...just because you're part of the answer doesn't make you the target of the spell. I have to agree with Gurv. Mind blank prevents people from intentionally using divination magic against you. But I don't believe that it plucks you out of every oracle's sight. Otherwise you get into a tremendous maze with spells like augury - Action X is CLEARLY "woe" if Joe Mind Blank is around, but if we can't see him, then what would happen? Well, if he wasn't in the picture, than the neighboring king wouldn't be afraid of... and so on, and so on. So I'm with Gurv. Spells like augury and divination have a personal range. They don't target the shielded person. They simply provide information about the future, of which the shielded person happens to be a part. |
| The Dreaming Duck06-01-07, 09:33 PM | A certain level of mundane sneakiness can be very useful... even if it means bribing humans (or even dragons!) to get into the Chamber's halls. Certainly. My only point is that I think it WOULD involve bribing dragons or using humans. The rakshasa are the clear, known enemy. They're unusual in a number of ways (being outsiders), and thus I could conceive developing magical defenses that target them that could never target a bribed dragon. I'm not saying that the Lords of Dust have no interest in Argonnessen or agents there; I just think it's a place an actual rakshasa would be EXTREMELY reluctant to go, since they're far more likely to be caught and face eternal imprisonment if caught. I'm sure the LoD have spies, double agents, and the like to help them keep tabs on what's going on, and it's possible these connections could be used for the benefit of a PC. I just don't see the LoD THEMSELVES making the trip all that often. |
| CannibalSmith06-01-07, 11:44 PM | (or even dragons!) "Here, have this big pile of gold and look the other way while we destroy you, deal?" I just think it's a place an actual rakshasa would be EXTREMELY reluctant to go, since they're far more likely to be caught and face eternal imprisonment if caught. They're already imprisoned. For the psi-savvy dragon, Metafaculty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm) beats all that stuff. It costs 1000 XP to manifest! Also: "You elevate your mind to a near-universal consciousness, cogitating countless impressions and predictions involving any creature you have seen before, whether personally or by means of another power such as remote viewing." My point is, Metafaculty is unfeasible. |
| The Dreaming Duck06-02-07, 12:28 AM | "Here, have this big pile of gold and look the other way while we destroy you, deal?" Who said ANYTHING about gold? We both said "bribery". I think gold is going to be essentially meaningless to a dragon. But knowledge? A shard of the Prophecy? A promise of immortality (which the rakshasa possess and dragons do not)? A promise of revenge against an enemy? Beyond this, its not about "looking the other way while we destroy you". It's "to share information with us." It's been said multiple times that the dragons are not one monolithic force, that they aren't all part of the Chamber, and that even the Chamber has factions with different goals. So it's "I understand you hate Dragon Bob. If you tell me what Dragon Bob is doing, I'll help you get that piece of the Prophecy that sheds new light on that thing you've been working on for the last two centuries." It's not about DESTRUCTION - it's about espionage. As Taski said, it's like our cold war. The double agent may not hand you the command codes to his nation's nuclear arsenal; he doesn't want his nation to be destroyed. But giving you incriminating photos of the opposition party's political leader? Having that guy embrassed helps his allies. Or consider the concept of someone who wants peace helping an enemy nation get their own version of his nation's superweapon to create a balance of power. He won't help you destroy his nation, but in his opinion his actions help ALL nations. So yes, personally I think that there's dozens of scenarios that could involve dragons working with the Lords of Dust - and I think that's a very different situation from dragons allowing rakshasa to operate inside of Argonnessen. They're already imprisoned. No, they're not. We're talking about rakshasa - the Lords of Dust. They are the fiends who DIDN'T get imprisoned in the Age of Demons. Perhaps you're thinking of the rakshasa rajahs, who were imprisoned and who, if released, probably wouldn't stoop to something so trivial as personally spying on Argonnessen. But among other things, the "rakshasa rajahs" aren't actually rakshasa, a point Keith Baker's made a number of times (and why I imagine he introduced the term "Overlord" in the Eternal Evil article, to eliminate the point of confusion). They are the leaders of the rakshasa, but not rakshasa themselves. So, I maintain my previous point. The rakshasa of the Lords of Dust are immortal spirits who escaped being bound in the Age of Demons. Volunteering for a mission to go to the place where beings are best equipped to locate them and bind them just seems like a bad idea. |
| taski06-02-07, 04:37 AM | Yes, by "bribery," I meant whatever goods and/or services would be most tempting. The Lords of Dust aren't going to win anytime soon, and a dragon would be betting that they won't win in its lifetime, or was told that they'll spare it and provide it with a luxuriant immortal existence (a false promise, of course). I pretty much agree with Dreaming Duck once again, except on this one point: Volunteering for a mission to go to the place where beings are best equipped to locate them and bind them just seems like a bad idea. While it would be a bad idea, even a phenomenally terrible idea, I wouldn't put it completely out of the question. There may come a time when the Chamber has or knows something the Lords of Dust absolutely need immediately if not sooner. I would think they have developed some (possibly untested) methods of getting past the dragons for a quick, imperative mission. It may end in the rakshasa agent being imprisoned. But I can imagine that if this McGuffin were so important, the Lords of Dust could come up with an appallingly creative threat much worse than eternal imprisonment. The Lords of Dust are second in Evil only to the Rhajas themselves (and possibly those Things in Xoriat). The LoD hate to request volunteers when they can extort, oppress, bully, and torment instead. It's so much more fun. |
| CannibalSmith06-02-07, 05:33 AM | Yes, by "bribery," I meant whatever goods and/or services would be most tempting. The Lords of Dust aren't going to win anytime soon, and a dragon would be betting that they won't win in its lifetime, or was told that they'll spare it and provide it with a luxuriant immortal existence (a false promise, of course). Isn't such thinking too human for a dragon? |
| Darakhoranon06-02-07, 09:14 AM | No, not really. If the dragon in question REALLY detests his neighbours (maybe they didnīt let him join in their games when they were all wyrmlings...), heīd probably be inclined to at least "look the other way" or even hand over those incriminating photos of one of them in "social dealings" with a lesser race... And maybe the dragon just uses the rakshasas to advance his own plots? Hand over said photos, thus taking several opponents out of the picture, and in the end swoop in to "rescue" another dragon he wants in his debt? |
| The Dreaming Duck06-02-07, 12:02 PM | And maybe the dragon just uses the rakshasas to advance his own plots? Exactly my point. The Chamber represents a fraction of the dragons, and the ECS notes that the older dragons "reluctantly allow it to exist". So there's an instant motivation - a dragon who wants the Chamber shut down but can't take action himself. He's not going to provide information that will destroy the world. He's not going to provide information that will help release a rajah. But he MAY provide information that helps the Lords of Dust against the Chamber, because he doesn't like the Chamber. Beyond that, while they may be inhuman, dragons are mortals. It's been stated that their alignments vary; there's evil dragons out there. Again, they may not help the Lords of Dust DESTROY THE WORLD, but there's a lot of ways to provide minor assistance without destroying the world. And as Darakhoran says, the dragon may believe that he's actually using the Lords of Dust to get his goals - that he's the one in control of this situation. Dragons aren't human. I don't see a more luxuriant lifestyle being a strong motivator for many dragons. But neither are they actually angels. They have free will. They can be of any alignment. They can have personal desires that clash with those of their fellows. An evil dragon may be arrogant and proud, both traits that can be manipulated. On the other side we have the Lords of Dust, who are immortal spirits of deception. They've had a hundred thousand years to learn to manipulate their enemy, to learn to spot weaknesses and character flaws. They've undoubtedly failed many times, but as long as the dragon in question can't bind them, failure is merely a temporary setback and a learning experience. I doubt there's many dragons who would work with the enemy. But I'm sure that there's some - whether it's because they believe they're the ones in control, because it serves their own rivalries and feuds, or because they're getting something - knowledge, power, whatever - that is more important to them than loyalty to their kin. All of this ties to my previous point that "working with the Lords of Dust" does not mean "destroying the world." It means revealing activities or plans of the Chamber. Perhaps revealing the location of a dragon's lair. Things like that. It's like the Cold War in OUR world - and this cold war's been going on for eons. No one's going to win tomorrow. But individual spies will be assassinated, information will be gained or lost, etc. Releasing a rajah is like launching a nuclear weapon, and few dragons will help THAT happen. But they may be happy to provide information resulting in the death of an undercover dragon who's long been a thorn in their own plans. |
| Darakhoranon06-02-07, 03:07 PM | As already mentioned, the possible existence of double agents canīt be denied. Wait, did I say "possible existence of double agents"? Make that "double agents CERTAINLY exist"... But why is everyone only argueing that the LoD are trying to infiltrate Argonessen? Why canīt it be the other way around? Why canīt the dragons (maybe even the chamber) be trying to get a double agent into the LoDsī operations? Handing over "unimportant" pieces of information (which just COINCIDENTALLY disrupts the activities of another - aka rival - group in Argonessen) would help a given dragon/group of dragons by impeding the progress of their rivals while at the same time allowing them to "get a foot in the door". Spying from the inside is nearly always more effective than using divinations from far, far away - which ties into the original topic of this thread. |
| Nuclear_Buddha06-02-07, 08:00 PM | It costs 1000 XP to manifest! Also: "You elevate your mind to a near-universal consciousness, cogitating countless impressions and predictions involving any creature you have seen before, whether personally or by means of another power such as remote viewing." My point is, Metafaculty is unfeasible. <shrug> XP costs are a moot point to a DM-controlled creature (especially one so powerful as a dragon). Even you want to make the dragon consider that cost (as a gesture of fairness to the PCs) you have to keep in mind that the dragon doesn't just sit around all day. He's earning experience by working on his plots, too. If he feel's it's important that he just HAS to know what the party is doing, he'll spend the price. After all, he can't take it with him, so to speak. Similarly on the "seen before" thing. "Seen before" is pretty flexible, since it allows stuff like remote viewing to count. Have one of the dragon's agents scope out the party and then read his mind for an image. My point is, if the dragon needs to spot something from a distance, it will, by hook or by crook. |
| davethebrave37106-03-07, 03:09 PM | "Here, have this big pile of gold and look the other way while we destroy you, deal?" I should note that neither the Chamber nor the Lords of Dust would be so stupid as to do anything without several layers of proxies. "I'm working with the Aurum, and I can offer you X" and the dragon does some digging and reveals...he was working for the Emerald Claw the whole time...only to discover that the EC patron who sent the negotiator is actually an Aerenei embed! But wait, the Aerenei who personally sponsored this particular agent for this mission...is secretly aligned with a Cult of the Dragon Below who worship a Daelkyr! It turns out, however, that the Daelkyr they all worship is little more than an incredibly powerful Inspired Psion working an infiltration mission from underneath Khorvaire, where the kalashtar won't bother them...except half way through building an army under the pretense of being a Daelkyr, a Lord of Dust Enchanter magically dominated the Inspired agent! The dragon might find out the EC connection, or possibly the Aerenal connection. I doubt there'd be any further delving. And that's just one example of the kinds of onions both sides would lob at each other. The dragon isn't worried about his entire species becoming extinct by his betrayal, he thinks he's hampering a rival while keeping his hands clean and getting paid to do it (whether that's gold or something less tangible isn't really the point, as it's a benefit in exchange for a benefit). I highly doubt a raksasha arranges a meeting with a dragon on neutral ground and goes, "So, yeah...uhh...this isn't to do with the destruction of your entire race, I just kind of want to know what Geuxulitlirieuzuauezxxxuexuebdfoghwerui has been doing lately. No, no, personal plot. Nothing to do with our overarching stuff. Seriously. Don't worry about it." Likening it to the U.S.A./U.S.S.R. cold war (though I don't really see how it's all that applicable to a supernatural war in a fantasy setting that's been going on since the dawn of time and was at one time pretty frickin' hot) you could take the example of the "Belgian Ambassador" who assassinated Trotsky. The guy was a Soviet assassin, but the Mexican government assumed he not only Belgian, but high up Belgian. |
| CannibalSmith06-04-07, 12:54 AM | Now, that sounds like Eberron. |
| Soltares06-04-07, 04:32 AM | Again, they may not help the Lords of Dust DESTROY THE WORLD Unless they happen to be devotees of Garyx or Falazure, and that sort of thing floats their particular boat. According to ECS p 130, both the All-Destroyer, Cleanser of Worlds and the Night Dragon are followed in Eberron. |
| The Dreaming Duck06-04-07, 09:47 AM | Unless they happen to be devotees of Garyx or Falazure, and that sort of thing floats their particular boat. According to ECS p 130, both the All-Destroyer, Cleanser of Worlds and the Night Dragon are followed in Eberron. Excellent point. What Hellcow's said in the past is that the dragons aren't "THE DRAGONS" - they aren't a monolithic force, as shown by the fact that there are many who question whether the Chamber should be allowed to exist (and thus who might at least help against the Chamber, even if they didn't provide intelligence against Argonnessen). However, I think that DavetheBrave has hit it on the head. I think this level of subtlety is what you'd see on both sides of the war. You're dealing with inhumanly intelligent beings who live for thousands of years set against beings who live forever. On the one side you have telepathic shapechangers; on the other you have the potential for shapechaning (depending on dragon color) and powerful magic. The potential for intrigue is enormous. I could see a rakshasa or dragon cultivating an entire family line just for this purpose, without them even knowing it. It could be that the Aurum itself was founded to fill the scheme of a dragon or rakshasa - the members don't know and have their own agendas, but they also serve as the deniable agents for the DtB's sort of schemes. So yes, we keep mentioning our could war... but it's important to bear in mind that it's a cold war fought by powerful magical beings who live for thousands of years or more, measured across eons, and whose greatest threats (the rajahs) can only be unleashed through the fulfilment of prophecy and other special conditions. |
| Darakhoranon06-04-07, 07:00 PM | Just out of curiousity: Why is (nearly) everyone argueing that the LoD are the ones pulling tricks? Weīre NOT talking about a rajah after all, so no matter how powerful a given demon may be, thereīs at least the possibility of a more powerful (and much smarter) dragon... I can easily imagine a Great Wyrm out-thinking a demon - maybe with this "feint within a feint within a feint..."-stuff davethebrave371 suggested - and thus PRETENDING to sell out his "friends", when heīs actually setting up the rakshasa for something else. |
| The Dreaming Duck06-04-07, 07:22 PM | Just out of curiousity: Why is (nearly) everyone argueing that the LoD are the ones pulling tricks? I'm not. The whole concept of a "cold war" implies active participation by two sides. If you examine my previous email, you'll see that I was specifically addressing the fact that both sides would be engaging in deception ("I could see a rakshasa or dragon cultivating an entire family line... It could be that the Aurum itself was founded to fill the scheme of a dragon or rakshasa..."). If the focus has been on the treachery of the rakshasas, I'd say it's because the original issue was whether or not the Lords of Dust had a backdoor into Argonnessen that PCs could use. No one asked whether the dragons could help the PCs get into Ashtakala, so it wasn't relevant. Beyond this, I'd also point out that while the Lords of Dust and the dragons are both capable of great duplicity, the rakshasa are the ones who NEED it. The dragons won the ancient war. They're the superpower of the modern age. The Lords of Dust are the scattered remnants of a former superpower, whose great leaders have been imprisoned. This isn't a match-up between two equal forces... it's the victorious power needing to keep an eye on the few insurgants who escaped the enormous defeat. Thus the dragons have more reason for confidence and less need for subterfuge. They control an entire continent, and influence the world; the Lords of Dust are a group of pesky stragglers, playing with human toys in the vain hope of regaining their former glory. As a side note, I don't see a 7 HD rakshasa trying to outthink a dragon. I'm thinking of the prakhutus of the Council of Ashtakala. They aren't rajahs, but they're potentially epic-level beings with a connection to a rajah. They aren't necessarily more powerful or intelligent than the greatest great wyrm, and I'm sure some wyrms can match wits with them. But they are (potentially) older than the oldest great wyrm. A councilor of Ashtakala may have personal memories of the Age of Demons. Thus, they are capable of playing the loooooooong long game, even farther than the dragons. If the battle is lopsided, it's lopsided in favor of the dragons. Their biggest brains can certainly match the rakshasa wit for wit. I'd certainly imagine that they have vastly higher population and firepower than the Lords of Dust. They are, for all intents and purposes, the superpower of Eberron. The Lords of Dust may be their most dangerous foe, but they aren't equals. What the LoD have on their side is immortality and the cunning that comes from a hundred thousand years of insurgency. They can't match the dragons toe to toe, and as far as we know they've never tried. But they can set plans in motion that will take tens of thousands of years to bear fruit... and be there when they do. Essentially, the LoD HAVE to be cunning to survive. It doesn't hurt the dragons to be subtle, but it's not required. I'm sure there are dragons that can match wits with the best of the fiends - but on a per capita basis, I see the Lords of Dust as being more deceptive. |
| davethebrave37106-04-07, 07:28 PM | Just out of curiousity: Why is (nearly) everyone argueing that the LoD are the ones pulling tricks? Yeah, I'm not either. My post specifically mentions it could be either (I just used LoD fooling Dragon as an example). |
| From_Khyber06-05-07, 08:40 AM | I wonder if the release of a rajah (say, in the Demon Wastes) would stir things up abit (in Argonnessen, that is)? Would it result in a more obvious war between the LoD and the dragons, or? Then again, it would of course depend on the motives of that rajah, who may well be scheming to destroy Thrane firstly. And would the dragons (through the Prophecy) be able to gain knowledge of the release, before it would actually occur? Hmmm... |
| davethebrave37106-05-07, 09:38 AM | I wonder if the release of a rajah (say, in the Demon Wastes) would stir things up abit (in Argonnessen, that is)? Would it result in a more obvious war between the LoD and the dragons, or? Then again, it would of course depend on the motives of that rajah, who may well be scheming to destroy Thrane firstly. And would the dragons (through the Prophecy) be able to gain knowledge of the release, before it would actually occur? Hmmm... Even then it seems they either a) act through proxy or b) observe, as in in Thrane with Tira Miron, the coautl and the Silver Flame. It's not clear which of those it was, but it wasn't direct intervention or war. A mortal hero and a coautl battled it and bound it. No dragons there. |
| From_Khyber06-05-07, 09:46 AM | True, but surely the release of the rajah would impact on the dragons in one way or another, would it not? The destruction of Thrane was merely an example of a wide variety of different motives/goals that an overlord might have (might as well have said Aundair - Thrane just came to mind first). Perhaps a released overlord might not mean direct eruption of war between the LoD and the dragons, but surely the dragons would do something to hinder it from happening again, no? I say it'd require some sort of intervention. |
| Hellcow06-05-07, 11:04 AM | I say it'd require some sort of intervention. Not necessarily, no. The thing to remember is that dragons aren't altruists. As a species, they have very little interest in what happens to others. Look at Xen'drik. They didn't help the giants against the Quori (or the Quori against the giants). They didn't help the rebellious elf slaves. They acted when the actions of the giants actions threatened the dragons, and in the process they utterly destroyed all civilization on Xen'drik, including both giants AND elves. Some members of the Chamber may have more sympathy for humanity and seek to help in low-impact ways. But if Argonnessen acts en masse as it did in Xen'drik, it could be just as bad for humanity as the release of the rajahs. The second thing is to consider is that the dragons are playing a long game. The release of ALL the rajahs is clearly a disaster even they have to fear, but that's not necessarily the immediate goal of every rajah; it's not what the Whisperer in the Flame did when it was released. The reason the Overlords were defeated in the first place was because they failed to act together. Meanwhile, the Prophecy gives the dragons a road map to the future. So the question you have to ask is "If they aren't acting, WHY aren't they acting?" It's possible that the release of the rajah is a necessary event for something they want to have happen... that they are willing to see Thrane destroyed today because it means that in a century Huran Miron will become Keeper, and that if Huran becomes Keeper he'll establish Edict X, and if he does that... and so on and so on and so on. The death of tens of thousands of humans isn't nearly as important as that long-term goal. If it's the deaths of tens of thousands of dragons, maybe - but then they would act. Another thing to remember is that the rajahs are truly immortal and can't be bound by traditional spells... and that it was the couatl who bound them before. The dragons may have formed the bulk of the dragon-couatl army, but it was the sacrifice of the immortal essence of the couatl that created the bonds of the Overlords. Just as the rajahs can only be released under very special circumstances, it may take equally special circumstances to bind them again. So the dragons may not take direct action because they know that nothing they do can stop the rajah - that it can only be returned to its bonds when the Child of the Last Storm and the (insert cryptic prophetic roles that somehow applies to PCs here) redeem the tarnished flame and so on and so forth. In Eberron, the PCs should be the heroes. The dragons can't solve every problem; they couldn't have defeated the rajahs before without the couatl. Beyond that, if they are forced to take action en masse, the consequences for the Five Nations could be just as bad as them taking no action at all. So the PCs may receive aid from sympathetic agents of the Chamber. They may need to seek the knowledge of the dragons, or to acquire an artifact from the Age of Demons currently held in one of the deep vaults of Argonnessen. But their goal should be to solve the problem BEFORE the dragons decide it's serious enough to take action... not to say "No biggie, if it's too bad, the dragons will handle it." Perhaps they will - but look to Xen'drik and ask if that's the solution you want to see. |
| Hellcow06-05-07, 11:10 AM | The destruction of Thrane was merely an example of a wide variety of different motives/goals that an overlord might have... And the key here is that the dragons will have a far, far better idea than humanity as to what the motives and goals of the Overlord are. First, they have lore dating back to the Age of Demons. They KNOW the rajahs and what they are like, and they know the difference between the Keeper of Secrets and the Rage of War. Beyond that, through studying the Prophecy they know the possible paths of the future. So yes, the release of a rajah who will immediately seek to free and unite all his brethren, or even a rajah who will make the destruction of Argonnessen his top priority may require immediate draconic intervention... which means that as soft little humans, it's in your best interests to keep that from happening so the dragons DON'T take cataclysmic action. However, it may be that they know Sul Khatesh will take at least a decade to strengthen her own position before she attempts to free another rajah, and so they will wait to see if the Child of the Last Storm fulfills his destiny before razing Khorvaire. |
| Darakhoranon06-05-07, 11:19 AM | Tempting... Smoldering ruins of Thrane... Now, where was that rajah imprisoned again? |
| From_Khyber06-05-07, 11:33 AM | Ah, thanks for such elaborate explanation, Keith. The reason why I initially assumed that the dragons would take actions against a freed overlord is that it possibly could pose a threat to them, but as you mentioned, the dragons of course posses an extensive knowledge on the different agendas of each rajah - not all of them may (at first) seek to destroy the dragons (or even destroy anything). Meanwhile, I've totally overlooked the Xen'drik part (and the role the dragons played there), and it's an essential occurence to look at in this context. Very interesting, Keith :) |
| Bluebrush06-05-07, 04:34 PM | Tempting... Smoldering ruins of Thrane... Now, where was that rajah imprisoned again?In Thrane. And then they built the second biggest city in Khorvaire right on top of it. Say what you like about the corrupt churchmen, but they have nothing on the foolish town planners. |
| Hellcow06-05-07, 04:45 PM | Say what you like about the corrupt churchmen, but they have nothing on the foolish town planners. Ye of little faith. It is the pure unwavering devotion of the people of Flamekeep that strengthens the Flame and keeps the demon bound. The city NEEDS to be large, and living there is itself performing a duty to the church. Certainly, it's a risk - but the faith of the Silver Flame is founded on the principle of taking necessary risks to oppose supernatural evil. (OK, I'm making that up, but it COULD be true...) |
| From_Khyber06-05-07, 05:18 PM | I know it's up to the DM to decide how many rajahs are imprisoned and where their wee little penitentiary is actually located, but we can confirm that there are several scattered throughout Khorvaire, according to canon. Could anyone perhaps sum those locations up? Thanks in advance. |
| Bluebrush06-05-07, 06:12 PM | Ye of little faith. It is the pure unwavering devotion of the people of Flamekeep that strengthens the Flame and keeps the demon bound. ... (OK, I'm making that up, but it COULD be true...)Whether or not that's the case, it could make for a interesting Lords of Dust plot. You don't need to storm the Cathedral, battle the Keeper and spend weeks on a ritual to release the overlord if you can force the citizens to evacuate the city for some reason. Not that this will itself be easy (or even guaranteed to do any harm to the Flame at all) but a few well placed fires could go a long way to getting the less devout to move away from the Cathedral. (Divine duty or not, many families probably wouldn't want to risk their loved ones to the mundane flames.) |
| From_Khyber06-05-07, 06:39 PM | Whether or not that's the case, it could make for a interesting Lords of Dust plot. You don't need to storm the Cathedral, battle the Keeper and spend weeks on a ritual to release the overlord if you can force the citizens to evacuate the city for some reason. Not that this will itself be easy (or even guaranteed to do any harm to the Flame at all) but a few well placed fires could go a long way to getting the less devout to move away from the Cathedral. (Divine duty or not, many families probably wouldn't want to risk their loved ones to the mundane flames.) I personally think that the LoD would approach such a task differently. Instead of driving people away through destructive means, they'd probably attempt to alter the church's public face as a righteous, good-natured order that strives to thwart all that is evil. The LoD would probably scheme to infiltrate the core of the church, letting depravity consume it from the inside. Surely, this is a rather lengthy process (heck, the LoD have, after all, unlimited time), but with time you can have the church commit acts that make civilians and priests alike question their ways, the outcome of that being civil war. I don't know, perhaps a bit too unrealistic, but I got carried away *snickers* |
| Darakhoranon06-06-07, 06:12 AM | But then youīre stuck with a large, PUBLIC organization devoted to "evil". True, civil war would almost certainly follow (and which demon does NOT like a nice little war now and then?), but we all know that that civil wars in Khorvaire seldom stay "private"... A second "Last War" might be quite helpful for the LoDsī plans, but it might also mean that a couple of dragons loose their patience... Not necessairily because of any real fear of the LoD, but because another continent-spanning war would disrupt THEIR plans... |
| From_Khyber06-06-07, 06:35 AM | But then youīre stuck with a large, PUBLIC organization devoted to "evil". True, civil war would almost certainly follow (and which demon does NOT like a nice little war now and then?), but we all know that that civil wars in Khorvaire seldom stay "private"... A second "Last War" might be quite helpful for the LoDsī plans, but it might also mean that a couple of dragons loose their patience... Not necessairily because of any real fear of the LoD, but because another continent-spanning war would disrupt THEIR plans... And, at this point, what would their plans be? Bear in mind, that this would be a task completed through delicate subtlety, and if the LoD do it thoroughly enough, the dragons wouldn't suspect their involvement in this. Besides, where were the dragons in the Last War? Did they intervene? As far as my knowledge reaches, they didn't, but then again, I could be wrong. What I'm just trying to say is that what happens in Khorvaire doesn't necessarilly affect the dragons of Argonnessen. As for the other nations and their intervention, well, they might still keep their distance from a potential civil war in fear that another Mourning would unleashed. |
| Darakhoranon06-06-07, 09:15 AM | True. I probably didnīt use the best words to convey my meaning... What I wanted to say is this: Letīs suppose the LoD do infiltrate the Silver Flame and change the religion/its practices/etc. so that it serves their plots/sooner or later helps them free the rajahs. A short time later, all hell on Khorvaire breaks loose (or is right on the verge of doing that), since the balance of power is severly upset by the Silver Flame becoming "another" BoV instead of the (usually) good faith it is now. Just as you said, From_Khyber, the dragons probably wouldnīt care about another "Last War" (as long as nobody got on their nerves about it...), but theyīd almost certainly take a closer look - if only to make sure THEIR plans donīt get interrupted/the Prophecy is not endangered. In this case, the dragons just MIGHT get a hint of LoD involvement. And in that case... |
| From_Khyber06-06-07, 11:25 PM | Ah, well, it's of course an arguable theory, but it's far from unrealstic. I guess that it's up to the DM to decide whether or not the great dragons would find out, and thereby intervene. Nevertheless, it'd be a fun scenario, if you could somehow involve the PCs ;) |
| Darakhoranon06-07-07, 05:33 PM | Involving them is simple. Just get them to a (completely unimportant village) in the way of the dragon flight on itīs way to bomb Flamekeep... |