Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hellcow 10-19-04, 09:27 PM	Hey folks -- I wanted to get a quick show of digital hands on an issue relating to future Dragonshard articles. So far, I've been starting each Dragonshard off with a paragraph of fiction. My goal was to set the tone of the subject, and to potentially suggest how it could be dropped into your game. However, I've also been over-writing the articles. In particular, the Valenar and Daughters articles were three times the standard size (and I don't get paid by the word). That's why these last two articles were broken into two parts. However, a side effect of this is that 1/3rd of this week's article was fiction. So my question is, which would you prefer? 1. Have more two-part articles, with the first being fiction & flavor and the second being more concentrated material (understanding that you still won't see things like new spells or feats -- use the Valenar article as a model for this). 2. Drop the fiction and have more concise single-week articles. Obviously, I like writing the little fiction bits -- but what do you all want?
Flame_Drake 10-19-04, 09:34 PM	Keep the fiction, Kieth its been great so far :tiphat:
Gilgiga of the Hunt 10-19-04, 09:39 PM	I second that
Korhal IV 10-19-04, 09:43 PM	I third it. I like the fiction.
Kenzuki 10-19-04, 09:44 PM	Well personally, I love thel ittle bits of fiction you put into the shards of lore. It helps me better understand how things fit into the world etc. :D
Edymnion 10-19-04, 09:47 PM	Fourthed, keep the fiction. Crunch is nice, but I can make up crunch without much difficulty. Fluff, especially in a flavor heavy setting like this, is much more important. I want a better understanding of the world, and those in it. Crunch can't give me that, but fluff can. Keep da fluff!
SirEvets 10-19-04, 09:51 PM	I like the fiction as well and think there is real value in it.
Neofish 10-19-04, 09:54 PM	I'll fifth that action... The fiction helps give insight into Eberron. Like I now know that the daughters of Sora Kell speak in rhyme and riddle, finishing each others sentances, crunch would not have touched the subject at all. I like it, keep up the good work..!
Daelkyr 10-19-04, 10:02 PM	I also want you to keep the fiction. Yeah, it's tough having to wait a week for the rest of the article, but it's been so helpful it getting the tone across to me and then to my players. Example, the Daughter's of Sora Kell: I've got a 'forged sorcerer who wants to discover the cause of the Mournland. I was struggling to figure out exactly how to give him the hint/quest/red herring that he was looking for. Korranberg Library? The Twelve? The Prophesy? And then... I read the fiction and it hit me so hard I had to read it again. Perfect. :twitch: The fluff for the Valenar is also what settled my wife on that culture instead of the shifters. I love your work man. Keep Daine kicking.* ________________________________________ ______________ *But please fill us in on whats happening to Pierce and Lei too :bigeyes:
Splendide 10-19-04, 10:05 PM	No fiction, thanks. More meat.
Hellcow 10-19-04, 10:06 PM	OK, that seems like a pretty clear response! Thanks, everyone. [Edit]... or maybe not! Any more out there who want to weigh in on the no-fiction side?
Kenzuki 10-19-04, 10:20 PM	The more lore and flavor the better. That and the fiction for the Valenar just so pwnd.
SahinTC 10-19-04, 10:25 PM	I have to say I'm a flavor man, so go for the tasty broken up articles. I guess I'll eighthth (uhh...) the notion. :)
xnrdcorex 10-19-04, 10:32 PM	the fiction not only explains things in a light the non-statistic maniacs can appreciate but its also very fun to read. so keep it :D
Master of shaarat'khesh 10-19-04, 10:54 PM	I Ninth the motion for fiction. I have really enjoyed reading it. I can't wait for your book!
Splendide 10-19-04, 11:00 PM	I might explain my position a bit better. I quite like the fiction, but fiction I can only use once. The broader setting info is something that I can use all the time. Also, splitting more articles into two-parters means a greater delay of the breadth of issues...ie. if Zil gnomes was 10 weeks away, suddenly its 20 weeks away. I don't really think a story makes up for that. Right now there's very little Eberron info available, so breadth is great....but in a year or so, I'd be right behind the fiction move, because we would already have a good amount of background through previous shards and Races of Eberron and so forth. Obvious Keith can do what he wants, but thats why I'm of this position.
Aris Stormdragon 10-19-04, 11:06 PM	By all means, keep up the fiction. It helps with getting a good feel for the setting. Also, maybe in a future Dragonshards, could we hear more about Daine, Pierce, and Lei? And what about Jode?
Megatron 10-19-04, 11:06 PM	I vote for Fiction, obviously. :D
DaemonAngel 10-19-04, 11:46 PM	Keep the Fiction. It gives a little life to the article and subject. If not for the fiction, the peice would feel a little to much like a text book, that simply gives information.
Hanuman47 10-20-04, 12:05 AM	I agree with Splendide. The fiction is great, but I'm not sure if it's worth it if it means the Dragonshards are going to come out half as quickly.
Korhal IV 10-20-04, 12:10 AM	Splendide does raise a point I hadn't thought of. How about this, Keith - give us the titles of the next ten Dragonshards, and put it up for a vote? :D Although, unless the Reaches are at the bottom of the list, I'm still voting for fluff.
Slayen 10-20-04, 12:19 AM	Keep the fiction I say. I haven't any problem waiting a bit for the rest.
polt 10-20-04, 01:13 AM	I looove the fiction, can't wait to see novel full of it :D
Marshall Stone 10-20-04, 02:01 AM	Fiction good, :thumbsup:
Splendide 10-20-04, 02:29 AM	Splendide does raise a point I hadn't thought of. How about this, Keith - give us the titles of the next ten Dragonshards, and put it up for a vote? :D Although, unless the Reaches are at the bottom of the list, I'm still voting for fluff. Of course, all this dispute could be solved by bumping the Zil and the Reaches up the priority list :D
DMSkippy099 10-20-04, 02:49 AM	I really enjoy both styles! I sort of enjoy the surprise each week, and wouldn't mind that continuing. Do some fiction heavy two part "shards" and throw in some "shards" that address other issues right to the point. Keep up the great work! I love it! Skippy
helzapoppn 10-20-04, 02:54 AM	Once Splendide explained the contrary point of view (shorter articles = more articles = more topics explored), I found myself agreeing. More fiction will be good after Sharn and Races of Eberron come out, since those works will give us the details we're all craving.
Angelion 10-20-04, 04:46 AM	My players would say "More meat to powergame with!" (bluntly said) and I would say the oposit. I will keep my trust that you can keep a good balance betwen fiction and meat.
gaerfindel 10-20-04, 09:11 AM	While I agree with Splendide, I must come solidly down on the side of more fiction. It definitely gives me a much better idea of the setting's flavour. For example, "Daughter of Sora Kell, Part 1" gave me this image: Daughters = Wyrd Sisters (And everyone knows you don't pissoff the Three Ladies... ;) ) Wouldn't have got that by crunch alone.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 10-20-04, 09:13 AM	Here's another hand for the fiction. :D
Euangelion 10-20-04, 09:19 AM	Keep the fiction and write two Dragonshards a week, that way everyone's happy. Uh, what was that? That's not going to happen, you say? Well, keep the fiction anyway! :D
polt 10-20-04, 09:23 AM	Well, maybe if you use the Fiction to get a message through. LIke with the Sisters, you get a very good picture of their personalities.
Chrys 10-20-04, 09:48 AM	I like the fiction...
Atlictoatl 10-20-04, 10:51 AM	Keith -- In a previous thread where you asked for feedback about the presentation style of Dragonshards, I advised that the strongest articles are those that include a piece of fiction, background, and crunch in each article. The Heirs of Dhakaan still stands out as one of the best Dragonshards, IMO, although you have done some phenomenal work since. I'm not going to vote for you to cut your pay in half, if that is what will come of more articles split into two installments. I also think that, while two parts is always a neat treat, the Dragonshards as a whole suffer from too many two-part or installment articles. I very strongly believe that the fiction/background/crunch format delivers the best articles. Even short fiction serves the purpose of engaging the creativity of the reader in the fashion that is crucially different from other article fluff and crunch. So, please don't give up the fiction, but I do encourage you to strive for one-page articles. If it comes down to a decision about the two, I strongly maintain that forgoing any fiction will, overall, weaken the efficacy of the Dragonshards. As others have said, the words of fiction bring the setting alive in a fashion nothing else can. Fiction needn't be long, though. All of that said, I'm confused. Daughters of Sora Kell, Part One was one of the shortest Dragonshards ever, and these puppies are on a webpage. Why does wordcount matter, aside from an aesthetic / "page too long" perspective? I get why wordcount matters to you and your editor(s), but not why things need to be serialized. (there's a whole other conversation about how to get WotC to pay for the crucial fluff. Contrary to most mainstream business instinct, the more you write about the Daughters of Sora Kell, the Valenar, and the Shulassakar, the more likely it is that I will buy Eberron product the moment it comes out. You being voluminous *helps* WotC, and they should encourage it.)
Lujayne34 10-20-04, 11:26 AM	That said however, I think interspersing to the point articles with the installment ones is a good idea. I think someone already suggested that kind of format. Maybe do a two-part with fiction, then the next time a one part with no fiction. I really really really really love the fiction! I can't wait for the novels to come out!!!!
Foxboy2000 10-20-04, 11:30 AM	Agreed. IMNSHO, part of the reason that Forgotten Realms is so well-loved is that Ed Greenwood (hope I got the name right) had a basement chock-full of type- and handwritten notes of fluff for FR. So. Any chance that there'll be a series of articles in DRAGON like Greenwood's FR bits? :D
The Rooster 10-20-04, 01:02 PM	I like the fiction. Rooster
MrFilthyIke 10-20-04, 01:12 PM	While I agree with Splendide, I must come solidly down on the side of more fiction. It definitely gives me a much better idea of the setting's flavour. For example, "Daughter of Sora Kell, Part 1" gave me this image: Daughters = Wyrd Sisters (And everyone knows you don't pissoff the Three Ladies... ;) ) Wouldn't have got that by crunch alone. What's funny, is having NEVER read Pratchett, my wife's a big fan and I know exactly what you are talking about. :)
MrFilthyIke 10-20-04, 01:14 PM	Maybe just keep the fiction to one paragraph? Or keep it at 10 lines? something like that?
7sigma 10-20-04, 01:29 PM	More fiction. This is really helping me out in getting the feel of the setting. ;)
Kyrianna 10-20-04, 03:43 PM	I agree with keeping the fiction. While the crunch is nice, any DM can make up crunch. The flavor of a setting is a harder thing, though, and I love the way we can get a feel for the world, as much as we can for mechanics, through the fiction. After all, without the flavor, Ebberon is the realms with four new races and a new core class.
xanthus 10-20-04, 03:47 PM	I'll raise my hand as well among the plethora of people who vote for more fiction. I loved the fiction at the beginning of the Valenar Dragonshard and the Daughters of Sora Kell Dragonshard. I imagine that the masses are firmly in favor of fluff.
Harshmage 10-20-04, 03:52 PM	So my question is, which would you prefer? 1. Have more two-part articles, with the first being fiction & flavor and the second being more concentrated material (understanding that you still won't see things like new spells or feats -- use the Valenar article as a model for this). 2. Drop the fiction and have more concise single-week articles. Obviously, I like writing the little fiction bits -- but what do you all want? I like it the way it is. I may have to wait a while for the Dragonshard articles to complete, but hey, a good bit of fiction helps get my mind going in the right direction.
Belabras 10-20-04, 04:05 PM	One more vote for the fiction.
ENHenry 10-20-04, 04:19 PM	Here's my vote, Keith: If in the future WotC asks you to cut the article size, then drop the fiction. If all it means is to split it into two weeks, then keep the fiction. After all, though it's less "meat", we're still getting all of the article, even if it's taking us a little longer. And ultimately, one of us here will be collecting these things into one big PDF or such, so in the long run it doesn't matter. :)
Solarious 10-20-04, 06:09 PM	Fic-Tion! Fic-Tion! Fic-Tion! There is relatively little meat in any of the Dragonshards. Most of it is, after all, fluff, because that's what everyone's favorite Infernal Majesty does. Write about the cultures and explore it. The fiction helps give a point from which to start, and gives the article deph. So... cut it and the mass majority of your readers will cry rivers that will sweep your house away. :devil:
Darkest90 10-20-04, 08:14 PM	Here is the reason why I vote for More Fluff instead of More Crunch: While having shorter, more concise articles would pump dragonshards out faster, it also means that those topics will have less attention. When the Reaches article rolls around, I would like to have two of them, with double the information, instead of half of what I would normally again. I don't want to wait a whole 'nother dragonshard cycle before it is brought up again. So they might come out slower, but since there is more information, it isn't wasting anyone's time, it's still a dragonshard. And I will wait patiently until it gets to the Zil gnomes, because I will get two shards about them instead of one. Cool? Cool.
Splendide 10-20-04, 08:39 PM	Except you're not getting two shards, you're getting one shard, and one short story about maybe a couple of specific Zil.
Hellcow 10-20-04, 08:44 PM	Except you're not getting two shards, you're getting one shard, and one short story about maybe a couple of specific Zil. Well, the Valenar article is what we're using as the example here, Splendide. The first part didn't include much crunchy detail, but it included the history of the nation. So looking to that, if that had been about gnomes instead of elves, would you have wanted me to skip part 1 and go directly to part 2? And while it's true, the story is going to be about individuals, assuming that there is a story at all the goal is to establish the flavor of the subject matter and possibly suggest how it could be incorporated into a game. In the case of the Valenar, the goal was to establish that: There are female warriors in Valenar culture. Why a Valenar warrior might go adventuring (following in the footsteps of her ancestor). The way in which Valenar might bring up her ancestors in speech. The general attitude Valenar have towards their foes in battle. So sure, it was a specific Valenar; but the goal was to try to set the tone for the culture as opposed to saying "Here's a specific isolated NPC."
Hellcow 10-20-04, 08:50 PM	Reading all of the responses, I think I'll keep things as they stand. Fiction will be short but present in articles where I feel it serves a useful purpose (you'll note that there re a few that don't have any fiction). Some articles will be split -- most likely racial articles will fall into this category -- but if a subject can be covered quickly and concisely, it will only use a single article. Thanks for all of the feedback - it's good to hear what people think!
Edymnion 10-20-04, 09:00 PM	Gonna have to re-iterate my position of keeping the fiction, if not exanding on it. Yes, it slows down the rate the dragonshards come out at. But, we don't know what those future articles are, so it doesn't really matter, because we don't know what we're missing out on. Now on to my main points: 1) Crunch is easy. I've been a DM for longer than 3e has been around. You tell me you want a Type X character, I can whip you up a half dozen builds of them in a half hour, easy. You tell me there's a tower someplace, and I can wing as many floors and layouts as you want me to include. Crunchy bits are easy to come up with for anyone that has more than a couple months of gameplay under their belt. 2) Eberron is one of, if not the, most flavor heavy settings I've ever played in. Eberron does not draw from traditional fantasy like almost every other D&D setting does. Most settings, you could play in a setting for weeks or months and not even know which one you are in as long as you simply change the names around. Not Eberron, you know you're in an Eberron game the instant you step foot into it. In Eberron, flavor is king. Crunch and mechanics, aside from the new things like the races, classes, and AP, the crunchy stuff is identical to core D&D. The flavor though, thats what sets this setting apart from any other. Maybe its just because I'm an experienced DM, but I find that having a good understanding of a setting is far more important than any amount of crunchy numbers. Tell me how the world works, and then I can tell you the nitty gritty details of things like hitpoints and BAB. But I can't turn raw crunch into campaign setting flavor, not without some idea on how they're supposed to be used. I mean, just looking at the mechanics for the Warforged, they come across as being very robot or golem like. However, reading the fluff for the race, you get an entirely differant picture. A race looking for their place in the world, that are shunned as relics of a past the rest of the world would rather put behind them, of, well, all of it. That fluff is what makes this setting stand head and shoulders above anything else in the game, IMO. Any cheap third party garbage book can churn out crunch, but only the best can turn out good fluff. :)
Splendide 10-20-04, 09:10 PM	...this crunch (Khoravar) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040906a) without fiction is extraordinarily useful, and involves no fiction. I think you're considering this fluff? ...this fluff (the Valenar fiction segment at the start) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041004a) doesn't really help me with my game and characters at all. I can already infer that Valenar bite off more than they can chew from the ECS....whereas the history stuff listed after it (the crunch) is all very useful stuff that I can use for character history, campaign history and so on. I don't think we're arguing for mechanics here, more the non-mechanic information that is broadly and repeatedly useful.
Solarious 10-21-04, 01:36 AM	I believe I will apologize for myself here. I don't always get everything about a setting immediately: it takes time. Not all of us are flavor experts, and that little *click* in your mind that lets you know that you understand what Hellcow is trying to get across... doesn't always happen immediately :) The fiction helps set the mood and tone of an article: gives you an idea of what the idea is all about. Taking gaerfindel's example, The Daughters of Sora Kell fiction helps people visualize a setting and general personalities of the three hags. I mean, creepiness at that level simply can't be described. Besides, a fiction doesn't take more than... what? A fifth of an article at worst? If a subject needs more than one article to explore, it's going to take more than one article whether there is fiction involved or not. Go easy on Keith... he slaves so hard for us :smirk:
stone_dog 10-21-04, 02:08 AM	Fiction is good I will readily admit. I like the tone and flavor of everything done so far and I feel that whatever will make Keith feel the most creative is probably a good thing for all of us. That being said if the intro fiction was dropped it wouldn't hurt my feelings too badly. That space could easily be used for an extra paragraph or two regarding the topic at hand more directly instead of from an NPC point of view. Judgement? They are like John Crichton's dog memories. Necessary? No, but keep them if you can.
stone_dog 10-21-04, 02:15 AM	As a side note and tangent I am slowly realizing that a Dragonshard or two on the Mournlands is probably pretty important. It pains me to admit since I am eagerly awaiting the astrology/nomy segment (Moons! Colors? Omens? Portents? Comets? Planets?) and anything to do with foods of various cultures (is Brelish cuisine mocked for being bland in other nations?), but with all the arguments about how the mournlands work in cannon and what they are generally like it is probably important that we get that all cleared up before we get on to other things. [/tangent]
Splendide 10-21-04, 02:51 AM	Whoops, lost this one over the page...didn't notice you'd responded! Well, the Valenar article is what we're using as the example here, Splendide. The first part didn't include much crunchy detail, but it included the history of the nation. So looking to that, if that had been about gnomes instead of elves, would you have wanted me to skip part 1 and go directly to part 2?I would want you to write a four part series :D But, at this stage I would reckon that one article is enough to chew on given that we're all only going off the ECS at the minute, and a lot of people have no interest in gnomes, but there's a lot we don't know. For example, I have no real interest in the shulassakar, but I can imagine a lot of people would...I'm glad its not two weeks worth of material though. The grass is always greener in the next article, you know ;) And while it's true, the story is going to be about individuals, assuming that there is a story at all the goal is to establish the flavor of the subject matter and possibly suggest how it could be incorporated into a game. In the case of the Valenar, the goal was to establish that: There are female warriors in Valenar culture. Why a Valenar warrior might go adventuring (following in the footsteps of her ancestor). The way in which Valenar might bring up her ancestors in speech. The general attitude Valenar have towards their foes in battle. So sure, it was a specific Valenar; but the goal was to try to set the tone for the culture as opposed to saying "Here's a specific isolated NPC."Sure, I get that, but you also explained 2) and 4) in the second part anyway. Also the part I like a little less about the `fiction as information' concept is that you can't tell which bits are individual and which bits are commonplace. For example, do all Valenar invoke the names of their ancestors in common speech? You can tag the extent of that sort of pratcie into a `non-fiction' segment more easily, I'd think. Again, its your series, so obviously you can do what you like. Thats just what I reckon and I won't burn my ECS either way, so its all good.
Save-vs-DM 10-21-04, 02:54 AM	Fiction GOOD! FICTION WANT! MORE TALKIES! MONSTER BAD! Cheers, Save vs DM, raging 5 int Barbarian
Splendide 10-21-04, 03:17 AM	Fiction GOOD! FICTION WANT! MORE TALKIES! MONSTER BAD! Cheers, Save vs DM, raging 5 int Barbarian "What you do here elf?" Big fight guy look elf he spin spike ball and clan get close got fight soon. "Old elf kill many guys, you not old guys he killed!" Big fight guy hit elf but miss lose spike ball elf stab him smile. "Me kill many guys now!"
ImmortalBlueMage 10-21-04, 05:03 AM	It's pretty pointless right now being as this is a total landslide in favor of fiction, but I'll vote to keep it as well.
stone_dog 10-21-04, 02:57 PM	"What you do here elf?" Big fight guy look elf he spin spike ball and clan get close got fight soon. "Old elf kill many guys, you not old guys he killed!" Big fight guy hit elf but miss lose spike ball elf stab him smile. "Me kill many guys now!" ... ... Wow. If there will ever be a Dragonshards about ogre clans or hill giants, Keith needs to get you to help on the fiction. ;) That was great!
LewisLlynn 10-21-04, 04:00 PM	I think many people are using "fluff" to mean only the fiction. I believe there is plenty of fluff aside from the fiction. I find myself torn. On the one hand, I do like the fiction, and the encounters make Eberron seem more real. On the other hand, I am an impatient little jerk, so I would probably rather have new articles more often than articles less often with fiction. So I'll have to come down slightly on the side of no fiction, though I doubt my vote will count much, and I wouldn't be devestated at all if you did keep the fiction, Kieth.
EberronJunkie 10-21-04, 07:28 PM	double post sorry.
EberronJunkie 10-21-04, 07:30 PM	fiction is good, keep it coming, otherwise the articles just turn into hohum rules classification and errata with a bit of stats and characteristics thrown in, which no one wants. i like a bit of back story as well, gets the old imagination fireing, and some days it needs all the help it can get. So say yes to fiction, and frankly i'll wait another week to get the second part to the story, rather than have something thats been squished to fit some average.
gaerfindel 10-22-04, 11:26 AM	While I agree with Splendide, I must come solidly down on the side of more fiction. It definitely gives me a much better idea of the setting's flavour. For example, "Daughter of Sora Kell, Part 1" gave me this image: Daughters = Wyrd Sisters (And everyone knows you don't pissoff the Three Ladies... ) Wouldn't have got that by crunch alone. What's funny, is having NEVER read Pratchett, my wife's a big fan and I know exactly what you are talking about. Actually, I was thinking of the Wyrd Sisters as potrayed by Gaiman, but yeah. ;)