| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| darkthought05-30-05, 02:06 AM | Awesome dragonshard! This is exactly the something I've been wanted. Now if Keith goes deeper into the House of Vol, I'd be much, more more happy. :D |
| Marshall Stone05-30-05, 02:11 AM | I too liked the article. When I read this part: In time, two schools of thought came to dominate the field of necromancy: the techniques of the line of Vol, which many blame for the spread of vampirism into Khorvaire; and the traditions of the Priests of Transition, which focused on positive energy and the power of Irian. Ultimately it was the positive path that took root in the land, and the lines united behind the cult of the deathless. The Undying Court has ruled the land for over twenty thousand years, and today the deathless are inextricably linked to Aereni society. I couldn't help but think of a Variant Eberron, like in that Star Trek episode where Spock had a goatee. I wonder what Aerenal would be like if the Blood of Vol had taken root. How different might things be? It inspires a possible plot to play out. |
| FuzzCube05-30-05, 04:12 AM | Marshal this is an awesome idea. While the PCs are in Xendrik, the activate some artifact the PCs are sent back in time. The adventure is setup so that the good guys are the Vol supporters, the PCs help them win. When the PCs get back to present, they discover that they changed history, and now Aerenal is ruled by Vol. The undying court doesn't exist, and instead of the cult of Vol there is a cult of the priests of transition. But the vol court in Aerenal needs to expand constantly to support the growing number of undead that feed on the living. The natural choice for expansion is Khorvaire. The PCs come back to a Khorvaire which suffers from a growing number of undead raids and conquests. Now they have to get back to the past, and stop themselves from doing the right thing of helping the Vol supporters. |
| Marshall Stone05-30-05, 04:52 AM | Marshal this is an awesome idea. While the PCs are in Xendrik, the activate some artifact the PCs are sent back in time. The adventure is setup so that the good guys are the Vol supporters, the PCs help them win. When the PCs get back to present, they discover that they changed history, and now Aerenal is ruled by Vol. The undying court doesn't exist, and instead of the cult of Vol there is a cult of the priests of transition. But the vol court in Aerenal needs to expand constantly to support the growing number of undead that feed on the living. The natural choice for expansion is Khorvaire. The PCs come back to a Khorvaire which suffers from a growing number of undead raids and conquests. Now they have to get back to the past, and stop themselves from doing the right thing of helping the Vol supporters. Wow, that's not bad, I'm going to HAVE to do that now! <carefully steals idea>. |
| polt05-30-05, 05:46 AM | Really nice Dragonshard, lots of fluff. Great. Now, for the next want, I want to know what the deal is with Aerenal and baboons! |
| Zedium05-30-05, 07:08 AM | Yeah I wonder why the elves have an obsession with babboons. Maybe some kind of unfortunate Random Polymorph accident on a former leader? Hehe. Also, I wonder how clerics with the deathless domain handle their Create Deathless power, and even more their Control Deathless, seeing how deathless actually are their ancestors and all that. |
| Joni-san05-30-05, 12:31 PM | Not only a excellent Dragonshard but a nice thread too. A Bizarro Eberron would be an interesting place. *The Silver Flame be a evil Black Flame *The Kalashtar would be depraved terrorists while the Quori are an enlightened people |
| Mula05-30-05, 12:45 PM | *The Kalashtar would be depraved terrorists while the Quori are an enlightened people But that's how it really is. ;) |
| MarkB05-30-05, 12:55 PM | I too liked the article. When I read this part: In time, two schools of thought came to dominate the field of necromancy: the techniques of the line of Vol, which many blame for the spread of vampirism into Khorvaire; and the traditions of the Priests of Transition, which focused on positive energy and the power of Irian. Ultimately it was the positive path that took root in the land, and the lines united behind the cult of the deathless. The Undying Court has ruled the land for over twenty thousand years, and today the deathless are inextricably linked to Aereni society. I couldn't help but think of a Variant Eberron, like in that Star Trek episode where Spock had a goatee. I wonder what Aerenal would be like if the Blood of Vol had taken root. How different might things be? It inspires a possible plot to play out. One idea I ahd was for the prophet Aeren to become unearthed from his tomb, now animated as a lich or powerful spirit, proclaiming that the Aereni have got it all wrong, that the path to Elven power and glory he'd prophecised lay along the undead path pursued by House Vol, and the path of the Undying Court has doomed them all. Is he telling the truth, or has his own rebirth in undead form deluded him? Or is this all an elaborate ploy by the undead remnants of the House of Vol to return to power? |
| Mula05-30-05, 01:00 PM | MarkB, Aeren was a she. Just like Lhazaar. And Erandis. All great visionaries in Eberron are female, duh! :) |
| The White Sorcerer05-30-05, 01:32 PM | *The Kalashtar would be depraved terrorists while the Quori are an enlightened people That's not even far-fetched, considering the cycle of Dal Quor. Just change it so that the cycle is currently in the il-Yannah phase, and have the evil kalashtar worship il-Lashtavar. |
| Gez05-30-05, 02:08 PM | MarkB, Aeren was a she. Just like Lhazaar. And Erandis. All great visionaries in Eberron are female, duh! :) Sora Kell and her three daughters, Tira Miron, Jaela Daran, Daca the Pillar of the Community... The only exception I see is the Lords of Blade, who while being asexual, has a male, rather than female, personality. |
| MarkB05-30-05, 02:12 PM | MarkB, Aeren was a she. Just like Lhazaar. And Erandis. All great visionaries in Eberron are female, duh! :) Darn. I almost went back and checked the article as I was typing, too. |
| Mula05-30-05, 02:35 PM | The only exception I see is the Lords of Blade, who while being asexual, has a male, rather than female, personality.I think some of the founders of the Five Nations are male, too, like Karrn the Conqueror. Although I'm not sure if he's a he, actually. Oh yeah, Vvaraak was a she, too. :) And Taratai, the rebel Quori spirit who led her followers to Eberron (and became the kalashtar Quori spirits). |
| Bluebrush05-30-05, 03:18 PM | I think Galifar was a dude, wasn't he? |
| Zedium05-30-05, 04:46 PM | Oh well, this topic is going to get sidetracked anyway: It seems like a lot of major people were indeed women, but I think this because in Eberron there is no battle of the sexes. Women and men are seen as equals and thus have equal chances at getting further in scociety and becoming a myth. But I think there might be a link between Aeren and Lhazaar. Both lead their people into new lands, lands where their people would prosper. Coincidence? It gets even worse: Taratai, the Quori who lead the Kalshtar to Eberron was female too, and she too lead her people to new and safe lands. I wonder if Eberron has more stories like these, it seems there are 12 +1 females out there or something ;) |
| Edymnion05-30-05, 04:59 PM | Getting the thread back on topic (somewhat) of the Dragonshard, anyone else get one niggling little thing in the back of their heads when reading it? Society where crime is low, everybody is obsessed about the old ways and perfection? A very drizzt like character could easily come out of this, fleeing from the oppression of having to be perfect and doing things in the old way all the time, instead of just being evil and dominated by women. |
| Gez05-30-05, 05:34 PM | Getting the thread back on topic (somewhat) of the Dragonshard, anyone else get one niggling little thing in the back of their heads when reading it? Society where crime is low, everybody is obsessed about the old ways and perfection? A very drizzt like character could easily come out of this, fleeing from the oppression of having to be perfect and doing things in the old way all the time, instead of just being evil and dominated by women. I already thought Valenar was perfect for Drizzt-like. It's a nation of double-scimitar-wielding rangers (just a shade away from being dual-scimitar-wielding rangers), oppressed by their glorious past. If I ever play a Valenar elf, he'll be a renegade wanting to live for himself, rather than pretending to be some other, long-dead, dusty icon. In a general way, I've the feeling that Eberronian elves are more Tolkienian than D&Dish (living in the past, trying to preserve the past -- Tolkien referred to his elves as embalmers once -- in a sort of perfect stasis so that it would never disappear, strong adherence to old traditions and customs; while core D&D elves are strongly chaotic). |
| Edymnion05-30-05, 05:59 PM | Yup, but thats because Tolkien's elves, by the time of the LotR are essentially a dying race. They were the first sentient beings short of the "gods" to awaken on First Earth, they were the ones that explored the world, their golden age was waning before the advent of men. And they know it. They're desperate to hold on to what they had, which is quietly slipping out of their fingers. They're resting on their laurels, as it were. Huh, and the Tolkien elves were very militant as well... I think you may be on to something here. Eberron elves may very well be much closer to the concept of Tolkien elves than normal D&D. |
| ydirbut05-30-05, 06:11 PM | I didn't like this Dragonshard. But then again, I don't like elves. To me, it seems like it was " Elves are good and holy and can do no wrong", which I thought eberron was trying to get away from. They only even slightly negative thing in the article is sandwhiched between how elves can make goods humans can only dream about, and how the humans are just now catching up to the elves in magic. |
| Gez05-30-05, 06:44 PM | I didn't like this Dragonshard. But then again, I don't like elves. To me, it seems like it was " Elves are good and holy and can do no wrong", which I thought eberron was trying to get away from. They only even slightly negative thing in the article is sandwhiched between how elves can make goods humans can only dream about, and how the humans are just now catching up to the elves in magic. Yeah, it's annoying. Am I the only one whose reading of this... While people from all nations come to do business at the port of Pylas Talaer, foreigners are rarely welcome elsewhere in Aerenal. Unlike Riedra, no restrictions exist on travel across Aerenal, and adventurers can move freely through the land. But the elves have little patience for members of the younger races. Elf wizards and sages dedicate themselves to their studies, while Aereni artisans devote themselves to their crafts. Even farmers and other laborers pursue their duties with astonishing devotion, seeking perfection in all that they do. Outsiders are a distraction. They are often loud, rude, or simply ignorant, and they disrupt the order of Aerenal. So adventurers are allowed to travel unhindered through the land -- but they are rarely made welcome or catered to in any way. Furthermore, the laws of the land are swift and harsh. Crime is a rare occurrence among the Aereni, and they have no patience for those who disturb this peace. An Aereni magistrate may use zone of truth or other forms of divination to confirm the facts of a crime. But the word of the magistrate is final, and a criminal has no rights. While exile is more common than execution, the wise rogue will ply his trade in a more lenient land. ... made want to go there with a high-level character just to make a big mess, fireballing cities, burning fields, and defacing works of art for no other reason than to give that dictature of quiet perfection and navel-gazing a good slap on the face? (And because, frankly, :devil: they're elves, they deserve it.) |
| Just another user05-30-05, 07:14 PM | Yeah, it's annoying. Am I the only one whose reading of this... ... made want to go there with a high-level character just to make a big mess, fireballing cities, burning fields, and defacing works of art for no other reason than to give that dictature of quiet perfection and navel-gazing a good slap on the face? (And because, frankly, :devil: they're elves, they deserve it.) Yeah, sure. That would show them how they were wrong. :rolleyes: Well, that is until some deathless come to stop you, and put on you a geas that force you to repair all the damage you have done (without magic) before to exile you in someone of the nastier planes. |
| Bluebrush05-30-05, 07:16 PM | I think a Drittz't-a-like could come from anywhere, given those parameters. A conflicted main character who abandoned the traditions of his family to follow his own ideals and uses two-weapon fighting? Sounds eerily familiar... I think it's just that elves are going to tend to be obnoxious whatever setting you put them in. They live for hundreds of years, so they get lots of levels, they're graceful, universally beautiful (with the exception of Mialee) and have mastered the intellectually demanding field of arcane magic. I'm sure you could make an illiterate elf barbarian who grew up eating slime moulds in the sewers of sharn and he'd still shine as Mr. Perfect 998YK. Anyway. One thing I'm wondering, which I might post on the AKB thread, if childbearing tends to be done outside marriage, how is the raising handled? Does the child tend to go the the mother/father? The nobler of the two? Is he adopted depending on how much potential he may have? And I'm still mildly curious about this whole baboon thing. |
| Gez05-30-05, 07:38 PM | Yeah, sure. That would show them how they were wrong. :rolleyes: Well, that is until some deathless come to stop you, and put on you a geas that force you to repair all the damage you have done (without magic) before to exile you in someone of the nastier planes. Sheesh, a mind-numbingly static dystopia/utopia where everything is perfect because it has to be, enforced by omnipotent decayed immortals who were chosen amongst the most reactionary, unchanging, and close-minded of their kin. Yeah, can't you see why it needs, it desperately needs, being blown up? (I mean, just the fact they're elves make them deserve a thousand stabbity deaths, but this kind of Best-of-the-World-like civilization where everybody is a monomaniac navel-gazer that is taught to reject change because nothing could be better than what his ancestors did before, that the best anyone can hope for in life is to mimick, without the possibility of bettering it, the accomplishment of those zombie-looking guys who should have died millenia agos; it is just too unbearable. If they can't accept change and evolution on their own, they need to get it forced upon them.) |
| Twiggly the Gnome05-30-05, 07:48 PM | Anyway. One thing I'm wondering, which I might post on the AKB thread, if childbearing tends to be done outside marriage, how is the raising handled? Does the child tend to go the the mother/father? The nobler of the two? Is he adopted depending on how much potential he may have? And I'm still mildly curious about this whole baboon thing. Two words... Baboon nursemaids. :D |
| KP9105-30-05, 08:17 PM | :heehee Reminds me of the dog in Peter Pan. I think they society is perfect because when you live in the same city as your god, your not gonna disobey them. Especially with NPCs at low level in Eberron. Before anyone else posts it: Elf Commoner 1 vs. Ascendant Councilor :D |
| Taigis05-30-05, 08:22 PM | One thing I like about having the elves focus on tradition is that in part it explains why the elves aren't advanced beyond all the other shorter lived races. Since elven civilization has been around almost as long as the ancient giants, there must be some reason why they haven't build upon the technological advances of the past. Imagine what a genius like Archimedes or Da Vinci might have come up with if they had lived for centuries. Well, by focusing the elves on perfecting past techniques, it solves that problem. Taigis |
| Edymnion05-30-05, 08:38 PM | I didn't like this Dragonshard. But then again, I don't like elves. To me, it seems like it was " Elves are good and holy and can do no wrong", which I thought eberron was trying to get away from. They only even slightly negative thing in the article is sandwhiched between how elves can make goods humans can only dream about, and how the humans are just now catching up to the elves in magic.Well, don't forget that in this setting, the elves have been around tens of thousands of years longer than the humans have. They must have been doing SOMETHING right to last that long. The very fact they are stuck in the past is the only thing that keeps them from being near godlike, like the dragons. Yeah, the Elves are all advanced. The thing is, while advanced, they are stagnant. They are not growing, they are not evolving, they are sitting around intentionally trying to stay exactly the same. They escaped the giants nearly 40,000 years ago, and they are essentially the same now as they were then. The humans have been around for only a couple thousand years, but they're already nearly the equal of the elves in every reguard. Another thousand years, and the "young races" will have outstripped the elves, who will either be religated to essentially the same standing as the Omish are in America. They refuse to use modern technology, and are essentially a curiosity, but no one to really fear or consider in any important decision. That, or the very foundation of their entire civilization will crumble as they realize that their living in the past is destroying their future. In many ways, the elves are on a turning point in the game right now. Maybe they're getting more aggressive because they know their backs are to a wall. Maybe thats why the Valenar decided to "reclaim" some land. They are trying to expand again, to grow. Everybody assumes the next great war will be among the Five Nations. Perhaps the Elves are going to use the weakened state of Khovaire to stage an assault. The next Great Way may be between elves and men, and your PCs may be the deciding factor! :D |
| Euangelion05-30-05, 09:26 PM | Don't forget that many young elves are joining the Stillborn... cracks are appearing in their society. Valenar (Valinor? ;) ) isn't helping either. And as for the Aereni elves being goody-two-shoes, don't forget their feud with Argonessen. There's something about the Prophesy that the elves don't like, and that isn't necessarily a good thing for the rest of the races of Eberron (if the Prophesy does indeed ultimately point towards transformation rather than destruction as is commonly believed.) Maybe Part 2 will shine more light on these issues. |
| ydirbut05-30-05, 09:40 PM | And the humans created a civilization "tens of thousands of years ago". While not exact, that ain't exactly yesterday. Besides, one flaw does not a balanced kingdom make. |
| Edymnion05-30-05, 10:01 PM | And the humans created a civilization "tens of thousands of years ago". While not exact, that ain't exactly yesterday. Besides, one flaw does not a balanced kingdom make.Whoa, who ever said kingdoms had to be balanced? CHARACTERS need to be balanced. Things that the characters can do needs to be balanced. Things the characters cannot control don't need to be balanced, they need to be whatever the story calls for them to be. |
| ydirbut05-30-05, 10:08 PM | Ok "balanced" was not the word i should have used. "Noiry" isn't really a word, but that's what I meant. Besides, nations need flaws, otherwise they become ubernations, like FR, if you know what I mean. Edit- to Explain Further(this is hyperbole) Thrane is totally absent from corruption. The average templar of the flame is an advanced paragon tarrasque of legend with 20 levels of paladin. In the flamekeep, there exists a device called the smitetron 9000000000. It istantly deals 10000000000000000000d100 to the target of the flamewardens choice. Also, the Thranians have increased sex appeal, have cured cancer, and have longer lives. See what I'm saying? P.S. Marshall, that bizarro Eberron idea is GREAT. So great I have to spell it in all caps. |
| Taigis05-31-05, 12:38 AM | Thrane is totally absent from corruption. The average templar of the flame is an advanced paragon tarrasque of legend with 20 levels of paladin. In the flamekeep, there exists a device called the smitetron 9000000000. It istantly deals 10000000000000000000d100 to the target of the flamewardens choice. Also, the Thranians have increased sex appeal, have cured cancer, and have longer lives. Who's been reading my campaign notes? Taigis |
| ydirbut05-31-05, 01:15 AM | Hehe |
| The Dreaming Duck05-31-05, 01:27 AM | To me, it seems like it was " Elves are good and holy and can do no wrong", which I thought eberron was trying to get away from. They only even slightly negative thing in the article is sandwhiched between how elves can make goods humans can only dream about, and how the humans are just now catching up to the elves in magic. Were we reading the same article? "The elves often find themselves blinded by their traditions" "The elves have little patience for members of the younger races" "The word of the magistrate is final, and a criminal has no rights" "An elf must earn the right to sire or bear a child" ... this doesn't say "can do no wrong" to me, let alone "good or holy." This seems alien and disturbing, and something that a human would find to be stultifyingly oppressive or dull. As for "good", we've got that whole extermination of the line of Vol, strict control of their own population, complete disinterest in the problems of Khorvaire - where are you getting "good and holy"? They have a STABLE society, sure - but that stability has come at the price of innovation. The fact that humanity is catching up to them in magic isn't a statement of "how amazing the elves are" - it's a statement of "The elves are so pathetic that in three thousand years, the humans have already almost matched what the elves have accomplished in ten times that span of time." And as for stability, we have the civil war with Vol, the fights with the dragons, the Tairnadal split, and the implication from the Phiarlan article that there were other minor conflicts that simply weren't as significant as the Vol war - the Phiarlans were, if I recall correctly, basically being called upon to act as secret police. By your own admission you don't like elves, and I think you're letting some of that color your impressions here. If Aerenal is a utopia, it seems like a pretty bleak one to me. The elves are concerned with perfection, but at the price of innovation - they are obsessed with the past and it may cost them the future. They fight negative undead, but that doesn't make them good or holy. It makes them people who believe - perhaps mistakenly - that negative undead pose a threat to all life. Given that in Eberron, negative undead CAN be good, that puts us back on the level of the purge - the member of the Deathguard who kills a good vampire may actually be performing an evil act. And as for making goods humans can only dream at, well, it makes sense to me that someone who devoted 300 years to woodcrafting would be better than a human who'd had only 30 years to develop his skills. This seems like a logical extension of elven lifespan and culture as opposed to some kind of slam on humanity. Anyhow, perhaps part two will add more to the scales, one way or the other... |
| ydirbut05-31-05, 01:53 AM | "The elves often find themselves blinded by their traditions" Like I said, that's between the part where it talks about how "the like of which a human craftsman could only dream" and "the magical talents of the younger races are becoming a match for the Aereni." Note use of word "becoming." "The elves have little patience for members of the younger races" This in the section where it talks about crime being unknown, their incredible devotion, about how the outsiders are "loud, rude, or simply ignorant," and how they rarely execute people? "The word of the magistrate is final, and a criminal has no rights" Not necessarily evil. If it is Evil, barely so. . "An elf must earn the right to sire or bear a child" how is this evil? |
| Saurenda05-31-05, 01:56 AM | Not only a excellent Dragonshard but a nice thread too. A Bizarro Eberron would be an interesting place. *The Silver Flame be a evil Black Flame *The Kalashtar would be depraved terrorists while the Quori are an enlightened people I do not need Drow in Xendrik welcoming advenures saying "Bizzaro I love you! Bizzaro I love you!" At any rate the article was indeed wonderful. Elves have gained multiple personalities instead of that one united nation of elves feeling I've had for most of my exposure to fantasy. Fanctions building within thier own societies and them dominating one another shows them as disfunctional as any other race, no matter how much longer they've been civilized. These ghost ghosts come back to haunt them. A shame there are no hunters for negative undead amongst the Deathless or living elves. Or vice versa. |
| Sarlax05-31-05, 02:37 AM | The elves must also be a culture of desperation. These are people who can live for centuries but are forced to live out the lives of the ancients the whole time. Imagine how many ideas an elf have over his life that he can't even share. The entire elven life is devoted to emulating the ancestors so perfectly that you can join them as one of the Undying. Most elves will never be accepted. You struggle for hundreds of years, serving your people with utter devotion, but you're still not good enough to be made eternal. And with every generation, as population concerns become greater, fewer elves will join the Court. |
| Just another user05-31-05, 02:59 AM | Were we reading the same article? "The elves often find themselves blinded by their traditions" "The elves have little patience for members of the younger races" "The word of the magistrate is final, and a criminal has no rights" "An elf must earn the right to sire or bear a child" ... this doesn't say "can do no wrong" to me, let alone "good or holy." This seems alien and disturbing, and something that a human would find to be stultifyingly oppressive or dull. As for "good", we've got that whole extermination of the line of Vol, strict control of their own population, complete disinterest in the problems of Khorvaire - where are you getting "good and holy"? If you ask me Aerenal seems the embodiment of lawful neutral, probably even more than the plane of Mechanus, because at least the modrons were (living) constructs. I think I can see a lot of Aeren PCs beign outcast that for some reason didn't want to follow tradition expecially considering that part were the elves believe their land can sustain a limited number of souls exile seem to be a popular punishment even for relatively slightest infractions not only for outsiders, but for elves, too. |
| EscherEnigma05-31-05, 08:25 AM | Am I the only one who sees some interesting parallels between Aerenal and Recluse from the book series 'the Saga of Recluse'? Obsessed with perfection, not directly hostile (in most cases) to other nations, very standoffish, elitish... And though they've been attacked by some of the most powerful people in the world their island has never been taken... Maybe its just me. I think this obsession with order also provides the perfect backstory for a PC from there. They were too individualistic, they didn't have the dedication to perfection, they wanted to try new things... and the elders wouldn't stand for this disruption in their ranks, so they were given a choice: reform or leave. |
| Zedium05-31-05, 10:22 AM | Hmm well I don't think the elves will outcast an elf who decides to do something different, they will just think he is doing it all wrong though and it will decrease his chance of getting into the undying court. But this new article has given us reasons why even good characters would join the Stillborn and Valenar, they are just extremely infuriated by the stagnant elf scociety. On the other hand, the new article makes Aerenal scociety strange and alien, and actually shows that elves live longer than we humans do. I don't see them holier than thou though. They certainly do stuff we humans would frown upon. (Sure, exiling may seem peaceful, but you try dropping an inuit into the Sahara, because exiles can either choose between Khorvaire of Xen'drik, both would provide a culture shock to say the least). Hmm, I can't wait to make a CN Aerenal Wizard/Rogue who was exiled because he stole something silly like a ring. |
| Gishsarath05-31-05, 10:35 AM | I can imagine the Elves of Aerenal having a tradition very similar to that of the Amish or the Meninites that live in isolated communities in North America. The tradition I speak of is a period of "wandering" in the outside world that young adults often embark on in their late teens, often characterised by "wild" behavior (by their standards at least). Once the young adults have gotten their sillies out, they can choose to remain in the outside world or return to their isolated communities and "archaic" traditions. The belief is that living a pure life free of sin means more to God if you know what exactly you are giving up. Perhaps the grand majority of Aerenal adventurers are the elven equivelant of young adults. They go out into the world and experience all that Eberron has to offer. They visit Xen'drik and see with their own eyes what their ancestors fought against. By the time they are out of Young Adulthood, they long to return to the peaceful serenity of Aerenal, truly thankful for what they have and ready to live a life of perfection and meditative contemplation. Those elves who don't want to return to the life that is promised them in Aerenal most likely end up joining the Tairnadal. |
| makeshiftwings05-31-05, 01:43 PM | I really like Aerenal. For some reason, of everything in Eberron, Aerenal always conjures up the most intense imagery and plot ideas. Which is surprising, since I generally loathe elves in other settings. The dragonshard was great, but I want more. More!! ;) |
| The Dreaming Duck05-31-05, 01:54 PM | "The elves often find themselves blinded by their traditions" Like I said, that's between the part where it talks about how "the like of which a human craftsman could only dream" and "the magical talents of the younger races are becoming a match for the Aereni." Note use of word "becoming." To which I again say the elves have a society that is thirty thousand years old. A single elf can live for almost ten times the lifespan of a human. If an elven craftsmen devotes himself to a single art, how COULD a human expect to match the knowledge the elf has accumulated over centuries? I don't see this as some sort of "the Aereni are amazing supermen" - I see this as a logical consequence of ANY elven civilization that is not inherently deeply chaotic (with the result that the elf never focuses on developing a particular skill set). The problem is the lifespan of the elves, and that's a thing from D&D, not Eberron. If you accept that they live so much longer than humans, the idea that elven craftsmen would be superior to human craftsmen is simply logical, unless you create mental limitations that make them inferior to humans. And, of course, the idea of elven crafts being superior to human crafts is pretty standard with the whole idea of elves, from Tolkein to fey in folklore (yes, elves are not fey in D&D, but they certainly have aspects of fey from the tales - long lived, magical, ethereal). As for magic, we already have the fact that elves have the favored class of wizard: arcane magic is supposed to be what they have a natural aptitude for. They learned magic in the Age of the Giants. The fact that humans are coming close to their achievements is a sign of their incredible stagnation. It's like saying "There's a culture that developed computers and airplanes during the Ice Age, and they've had them ever since, but they've never really gone any further than that." You may think that the elves are presented as perfect, but the greatest magic in the world is NOT in the hands of the elves - it's the remnants of the giant civilizations, or deep in Argonnessen. The elves may be able to hold off the dragons because of the power fo the Undying Court, but as far as has been said, they can't create major artifacts - and the giants could. So the elves have never caught up with the giants - and now humans are catching up with the elves. Again, this is a statement of stagnation and ultimately failure, not how immeasurably cool the Aereni are. As a final comment on this, it's also addressed by "Artists and bards are expected to perfect ancient techniques instead of developing new styles." A human may have difficulty mastering a technique that takes an elf centuries to learn - but he can come up with something the elves have never even considered. An elf is discouraged from doing this. Me, I'll choose freedom over perfection any day. "The elves have little patience for members of the younger races" This in the section where it talks about crime being unknown, their incredible devotion, about how the outsiders are "loud, rude, or simply ignorant," and how they rarely execute people? I think you're completely missing the point of this section. Let's break it down. "Even farmers and other laborers pursue their duties with astonishing devotion, seeking perfection in all that they do." As mentioned above, sounds good, but this is at the expense of innovation, and is something that is virtually forced on them by society: if you don't follow the old ways, you probably won't get to reproduce, let alone ever join the Court. Pressure to devote yourself to replicating what has been done before. Outsiders are a distraction. They are often loud, rude, or simply ignorant, and they disrupt the order of Aerenal. This is clearly from the elves' point of view. This isn't a statement that all humans ARE ignorant - it's showing that all elves THINK humans are ignorant. It's a shorthand way of showing the prejudice elves have against the younger races. So again, in my eyes, this isn't actually saying that the elves are perfect: it's saying that they AREN'T perfect, because they haven't escaped prejudice and don't recongize the accomplishments of the humans - who are quickly closing the magical gap, among other things. "The word of the magistrate is final, and a criminal has no rights" Not necessarily evil. If it is Evil, barely so. I didn't say it was evil. But are you claiming it's "holy and good"? From an alignment perspective, I'd go lawful neutral as others have said. My point wasn't that it was evil, but rather that it's unpleasant. Do you want to live in a society where you have no rights under the law? Is that really your idea of perfection? Certainly, the idea is that people accept it because they trust the magistrates - but there's nothing saying that you can't have a lawful evil magistrate, provided that he doesn't upset the order that the Aereni rely on. If any alignment is implied in the article, it's lawful - so I could easily see a lawful evil magistrate who despises foreigners and goes out of his way to inflict unpleasant punishments upon them. Moving on from there... Furthermore, the laws of the land are swift and harsh. Crime is a rare occurrence among the Aereni, and they have no patience for those who disturb this peace. Emphasis on the word "harsh". The word of the magistrate is final. The criminal has no rights. Punishments are "harsh". Execution is rare - which makes sense in a society that keeps such a close eye on its population - but following the use of the word "harsh" and the fact that magic is a prominent force in the nation, I could imagine any number of fun punishments. Aside from things like mark of justice, what about dire polymorph? You're an elf, you live a long time - spending the next 100 years as a chipmunk allows us to have far smaller prisons and save money on feeding you, and we don't have to listen to you talk. While we're at it, let's throw in blindness and bestow curse to really make sure you don't cause trouble. So they don't execute people often - "harsh justice" doesn't sound "holy and good" to me. "An elf must earn the right to sire or bear a child" how is this evil? Again, it's not evil. But is it a society YOU want to live in? If you fell in love and married someone wonderful, would you want to first have to prove that you had a right to bear a child - which primarily means mastering the techniques of the past, adding to that enforced stagnation - and then you have a child with SOMEONE ELSE. It's not evil. It's not good. It's just a system of reproductive control. But do you think it's presented as a pleasant thing - something the nations of Khorvaire should be emulating? Is this really a "look how cool and perfect the elves are" thing, or "look how strange and alien their culture is"? |
| ydirbut05-31-05, 03:02 PM | To which I again say the elves have a society that is thirty thousand years old. A single elf can live for almost ten times the lifespan of a human. The Humans have a society "Tens of thousands" of years old. The lifespan also means that every Pol pot, every Hitler, every Stalin also lives for the same time ( not ten times, but I can't find the part where it talks about aging.) If an elven craftsmen devotes himself to a single art, how COULD a human expect to match the knowledge the elf has accumulated over centuries? I don't see this as some sort of "the Aereni are amazing supermen" - I see this as a logical consequence of ANY elven civilization that is not inherently deeply chaotic (with the result that the elf never focuses on developing a particular skill set). Easily, Maybe: * the elves lack concentration, and cannot focus on one thing for that long * the giants bred the elves to be retarded * maybe elves have a form of amnesia? and remember, the elves only have a useful learning time of 200-300 years. As for magic, we already have the fact that elves have the favored class of wizard: arcane magic is supposed to be what they have a natural aptitude for. They learned magic in the Age of the Giants. The fact that humans are coming close to their achievements is a sign of their incredible stagnation. It's like saying "There's a culture that developed computers and airplanes during the Ice Age, and they've had them ever since, but they've never really gone any further than that." They still invented computers during the ice ages You may think that the elves are presented as perfect, but the greatest magic in the world is NOT in the hands of the elves - it's the remnants of the giant civilizations, or deep in Argonnessen. Oh my god, they are outclassed ancient of incredible magical power!!! Thos poor elves. The elves may be able to hold off the dragons because of the power fo the Undying Court, but as far as has been said, they can't create major artifacts - and the giants could. So the elves have never caught up with the giants - and now humans are catching up with the elves. Again, this is a statement of stagnation and ultimately failure, not how immeasurably cool the Aereni are. Ahh. So they held off the force that some people think could take the whole of khorvaire? Wow, that's such a downside "Even farmers and other laborers pursue their duties with astonishing devotion, seeking perfection in all that they do." As mentioned above, sounds good, but this is at the expense of innovation, and is something that is virtually forced on them by society: if you don't follow the old ways, you probably won't get to reproduce, let alone ever join the Court. Pressure to devote yourself to replicating what has been done before. I'm not claiming that they don't hold to the path. I'm claiming that that's their only significant flaw. Outsiders are a distraction. They are often loud, rude, or simply ignorant, and they disrupt the order of Aerenal. This is clearly from the elves' point of view. This isn't a statement that all humans ARE ignorant - it's showing that all elves THINK humans are ignorant. It's a shorthand way of showing the prejudice elves have against the younger races. So again, in my eyes, this isn't actually saying that the elves are perfect: it's saying that they AREN'T perfect, because they haven't escaped prejudice and don't recongize the accomplishments of the humans - who are quickly closing the magical gap, among other things. Every human civilization on Khorvaire is Biased against outsiders to some extent. Something else I just noticed. Ok elves should be rare, right? Long childhood(high infant mortatlity), long generations, repruductive controls. Yet there are (almost) 2,000,000 Elves just in Aerenal(not counting Valenar). There are 420,000 Orcs in Droam, Mror Holds, and the Shadow Marches combined What? |
| Siran Dunmorgan05-31-05, 03:46 PM | Something else I just noticed. Ok elves should be rare, right? Long childhood(high infant mortatlity), long generations, repruductive controls. Yet there are (almost) 2,000,000 Elves just in Aerenal(not counting Valenar). There are 420,000 Orcs in Droam, Mror Holds, and the Shadow Marches combined What? The Aereni have a civilization. Orcs don't. When you have a civilization, i.e., you live in cities, you have the population of the cities, plus the population of the surrounding countryside. When you don't have a civilization, i.e., you don't live in cities, you still have the countryside population, but not the city population. So, aye—given the land they've got, and the time they've had to populate it, two million is still a bit on the sparse side. Is that figure for just the living, or for the living and deathless combined? —Siran Dunmorgan |
| Psymnotica05-31-05, 03:57 PM | Another thing to consider about the population of the Elves of Aerenal vs the Orcs of Khorvaire is that civilization generally means advances in medicine, and the Elves of Aerenal have been studying magic in regards to life force and necromantic energies for thousands of years. Ever wonder what that might do for infant mortality or death due to disease? (No wonder they have a strict birth control policy.) On a different note, has anyone else gotten the impression that the Undying Court is, in the grand scheme of the Prophecy, not just a piece on the board but a major player? I mean, from what I've read I have gotten the impression that they are one of the more influential factions that oppose the Dragons, and are actively trying to manipulate the Prophecy for their own ends. Has anyone else noticed this or am I way off base here? |
| The Fireballed Mage05-31-05, 04:03 PM | One things this Dragonshard brought to mind for me (in a very direct way), were the Minbari from Babylon 5. They too were all about perfection, triumph of the ancient, and stagnant castes. As I described to my friend when we were talking about B5 long ago. "What's so great about the Minbari? Their archetecture is old, they're arrogant, stuffy, opinionated, stand-offish, kinda dull, their cuisine can at best be described as 'unadventurous', and their idea of a night on the town probably involves wind chimes and a bottle of scented water. Oh well... despite the fact their faults are legion... I still like 'em anyway!" :D As for why the elves don't progress much... I see the Aereni as involving a lot of mediation and contemplation in their lives. And I mean a lot. I see the elves as seeking a more spiritial existance, and to seek that is to search the world beyond the physical. The world unseen is a vast, intricate place where the mysteries are not so much solved, as experienced. In that vein, I can see an elf creating a fresco of an ancient hero of Xen'drik, in exactly the same pose as one in another village. The elf has spent years carefully carving the image, always going back and considering how it could be made closer to what it is copied from. And at every stage the elf withdrew into himself, spending weeks or months in 'vision quests', seeking not so much new physical achievements, but spiritual enlightenment about their action. Every new fresco brings forth a new spiritual quest, even if the fresco looks exactly like the dozen others the elf has done before. The same fresco itself could be completed by a human in a matter of months: an elf would take years to do just the work, but decades more in the quests to explore the 'spiritual' aspects of the fresco. Actually, I can see it being kind of creepy if a whole village retreats to seek enlightenment at one time. Imagine your PCs walking through a busy elvish village one moment, then the next there is no noise, no movement, nothing living visible as everyone retreats into mediation and contemplation for the next week. If you've ever been to Latin or South American, imagine a whole town going on a siesta... for three weeks. For adventureres (being the paranoid people they are) a whole town seeming to depopulate like that will probably freak them out. |
| The White Sorcerer05-31-05, 04:14 PM | high infant mortatlity :confused: Elves are the masters of the manipulation of positive energy. Why would they have high infant mortality? |
| ydirbut05-31-05, 04:18 PM | The Aereni have a civilization. Orcs don't. When you have a civilization, i.e., you live in cities, you have the population of the cities, plus the population of the surrounding countryside. When you don't have a civilization, i.e., you don't live in cities, you still have the countryside population, but not the city population. The Clans most assuredly have a Civilization. So, aye—given the land they've got, and the time they've had to populate it, two million is still a bit on the sparse side. Is that figure for just the living, or for the living and deathless combined? Just the living in Aerenal Another thing to consider about the population of the Elves of Aerenal vs the Orcs of Khorvaire is that civilization generally means advances in medicine, and the Elves of Aerenal have been studying magic in regards to life force and necromantic energies for thousands of years. Ever wonder what that might do for infant mortality or death due to disease? (No wonder they have a strict birth control policy.) Druids. |
| Edymnion05-31-05, 04:20 PM | Easily, Maybe: * the elves lack concentration, and cannot focus on one thing for that long * the giants bred the elves to be retarded * maybe elves have a form of amnesia? and remember, the elves only have a useful learning time of 200-300 years.Okay, now you're just being silly. Your answer to "An elf can spend hundreds of years practicing their art, where a human can only spend about 50" is "Elves are retarded ADHD patients". That don't cut it. Take a human artisan and an elven artisan (or even dwarven or halfling, which both live longer than humans) who both apply the same amount of devotion to their craft over their lifetimes, and tell us how a human that practices for 50 years can ever be a match for an elf of the same mindset that practices it for 300 years. The elf would have 6 times more experience than the human would by the time they became too old to work. Of course they are going to be better at it. But, they're copying old works. The place the humans would be able to excell and surpass them would be in innovation. Say the elves have perfected the art of making a composite bow. They have made the perfect bow, no other single piece bow could ever be any better than this one. They spend hundreds of years learning to make this Ultimate Bow. Then a human comes along and invents a Compound Bow with all of the wheels and pullies, and creates a bow that blows the elven bow right out of the water in terms of power and range. Nobody can build a better traditional bow than the elves, but the humans, through innovation, have created a better kind of bow. It makes perfect sense that the elves would be among the best in the world at what they do, but since they are stagnant, anyone with the innovation to come up with new ways of doing things will likely surpass them, because they find a new way to do things. The elf plows his field perfectly with a hand plow, while the human uses a tractor. Tractor doesn't make perfectly straight lines like the elves, but it does it faster, so the human can do more and get a larger crop than the elf. Just because the elves do it more skillfully doesn't necissarily mean they do it better where functionality is concerned. |
| The White Sorcerer05-31-05, 04:26 PM | Elven population vs. Orc population Elves mostly live in Aerenal. A safe place with no real threats to one's well being. Orcs mostly live in the Demon Wastes, Droaam, the Mror Holds, and the Shadow Marches. Hostile environments where one must fight for survival. Nuff said. |
| ydirbut05-31-05, 04:42 PM | Elves mostly live in Aerenal. A safe place with no real threats to one's well being. Orcs mostly live in the Demon Wastes, Droaam, the Mror Holds, and the Shadow Marches. Hostile environments where one must fight for survival. Excpet for, you know, the DRAGONS That are trying to invade. Except for that minor threat, it's perfectly safe. And plus, living in a hostile enviroment would lead to innovation, and to the Orcs taking over the universe, as it shoulkd be ;) . Okay, now you're just being silly. Your answer to "An elf can spend hundreds of years practicing their art, where a human can only spend about 50" is "Elves are retarded ADHD patients". That don't cut it. i am not. Look at Mid-life crises in humans. Now imagine doing the same thing for 200 years. I imagine boredom would strike eventually. Plus, if you could breed a slave race, wouldn't you make them as stupid as possible? Take a human artisan and an elven artisan (or even dwarven or halfling, which both live longer than humans) who both apply the same amount of devotion to their craft over their lifetimes, and tell us how a human that practices for 50 years can ever be a match for an elf of the same mindset that practices it for 300 years. The elf would have 6 times more experience than the human would by the time they became too old to work. At death, the Average Elf has spent 250 years outside of childhood. The average human has spent 75. 3 & 1/3, not 6. Take the average Elven artist, give two hundred years to practise. Then Take Michalangelo, and give him 60. Compare the results. But, they're copying old works. The place the humans would be able to excell and surpass them would be in innovation. Say the elves have perfected the art of making a composite bow. They have made the perfect bow, no other single piece bow could ever be any better than this one. They spend hundreds of years learning to make this Ultimate Bow. Then a human comes along and invents a Compound Bow with all of the wheels and pullies, and creates a bow that blows the elven bow right out of the water in terms of power and range. Nobody can build a better traditional bow than the elves, but the humans, through innovation, have created a better kind of bow. But the Human doesn't do that, because the elves"produce bows the like of which a human craftsman could only dream." Doesn't exactly leave much room for improvement. The elf plows his field perfectly with a hand plow, while the human uses a tractor. Tractor doesn't make perfectly straight lines like the elves, but it does it faster, so the human can do more and get a larger crop than the elf. To bad tractors haven't been invented yet. |
| Gurv05-31-05, 05:12 PM | i am not. Look at Mid-life crises in humans. Now imagine doing the same thing for 200 years. I imagine boredom would strike eventually. Plus, if you could breed a slave race, wouldn't you make them as stupid as possible? Perhaps. But I would also breed them strong and tough, and the giants didn't do that because that is obviously not something they lack. In fact, it stands to reason that giants don't need slaves that are like slaves humans use at all. What most people tend to forget it that this isn't Earth and these people are not human. The giants must have bred the elves for different traits than humans would breed slaves. It seems that they wanted smaller, agile slaves. The fact that elves are not retards, and in fact have especially sharp minds (I think that favored class wizard indicates that they have a nack for study and memorization rather than a tendancy towards amnesia and retardation) seem to suggest that this is what the giants were trying for. Smart slaves. |
| The White Sorcerer05-31-05, 05:20 PM | Excpet for, you know, the DRAGONS That are trying to invade. Really? I know they've invaded in the past, but now? Point me to the page that says the dragons are constantly invading Aerenal. |
| Gurv05-31-05, 05:23 PM | Really? I know they've invaded in the past, but now? Point me to the page that says the dragons are constantly invading Aerenal. If I am understanding some of the "logic" I've been reading, it seems likely that the dragons have suffered amnesia by this point and given up on attacking the elves. |
| ydirbut05-31-05, 05:38 PM | They don't have to constantly invade. One Cr24 monster a millenia could kill so many people, it's not even funny. Perhaps. But I would also breed them strong and tough, and the giants didn't do that because that is obviously not something they lack. In fact, it stands to reason that giants don't need slaves that are like slaves humans use at all. So would I. What else would you use slaves for? What most people tend to forget it that this isn't Earth and these people are not human. The giants must have bred the elves for different traits than humans would breed slaves. It seems that they wanted smaller, agile slaves. The fact that elves are not retards, and in fact have especially sharp minds (I think that favored class wizard indicates that they have a nack for study and memorization rather than a tendancy towards amnesia and retardation) seem to suggest that this is what the giants were trying for. Smart slaves. Actually, i'd say Humans are smarter than elves, but thats just me. |
| Gurv05-31-05, 05:47 PM | They don't have to constantly invade. One Cr24 monster a millenia could kill so many people, it's not even funny. Because everyone else is CR 1, right? So would I. What else would you use slaves for? Well, if I were 15 feet tall with a Str of 29 and a mastery of magic that Khorvairian civilization has yet to reach, I think that big strong slaves might be obsolete. Perhaps I would want slaves to entertain me. Maybe I would want them to spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week studying magic and creating new spells for me to learn. Perhaps they could be used to craft magical items so that I don't have to spend a lot of my own time and life force so that I can have tons of enchanted items. Maybe I would teach them to think outside the box. Actually, i'd say Humans are smarter than elves, but thats just me. Humans aren't smarter than elves. What could possibly lead you to that conclusion? Neither are smarter than the other, they just do things differently. I mean, if you don't like the race, fine. But you're not going to convince anyone unless you have something to support it with. |
| Psymnotica05-31-05, 05:54 PM | Another thing to consider about the population of the Elves of Aerenal vs the Orcs of Khorvaire is that civilization generally means advances in medicine, and the Elves of Aerenal have been studying magic in regards to life force and necromantic energies for thousands of years. Ever wonder what that might do for infant mortality or death due to disease? (No wonder they have a strict birth control policy. Druids. Hmmm. Simple enough answer, but it doesn't really explain/support your argument. I mean, I can draw a lot of conclusions from that one word, but I don't automatically see druids being focused on healing. Druids revere nature, and nature has consistently demonstrated that only the fittest should survive. Which, by the way, only goes to support why Orcs have such low numbers as compared to the Elves of Aerenal. Care to elaborate your reasoning? |
| The Dreaming Duck05-31-05, 06:01 PM | the giants bred the elves to be retarded Sheesh. Let's get to the bottom line here. Ydirbut, is your problem with elves as presented in the PHB and the ECS, or with elves as presented in this article? I don't know what you expected to see in an article on Aerenal elves. I expected an article that was consistent with what had been said about Aerenal in the ECS and about elves in the PHB. If the article had said "The giants bred a short attention span and early senility into the elves, and the elves aren't a match for human cultures on any front", I'd say "What the %&$?" The PHB provides no indication that elves suffer from ANY reduced mental capacity, which is something that should show up as a stat adjustment. The ECS says that the elves "concern themselves with events that cover the sweep of centuries" – which downplays the idea of early senility. Battling the dragons to a standstill is not something THIS article created – it's something that's in the ECS. Thus, it's the role of this article to explain what sort of society could accomplish that task. On the same page, it says that the elves are some of the best woodworkers on Eberron – IE, they produce bows human craftsmen can only dream of. It says that they are among the most accomplished wizards of Eberron – so if this article said otherwise, it would be blatantly contradicting the ECS. And it talks about their racial pride and arrogance, which to my mind is exactly what is being implied by the "outsiders are noisy and ignorant" line. It's not a statement that outsiders ARE ignorant – it's that arrogant elves consider them to be so. In my opinion, this article expands on the culture in a consistent manner, while presenting the flaws of the civilizations. They have a very rigid society, lack innovation, and have a low opinion of individual rights. Nothing is said about their alignment; I see nothing that indicates altruism, and what I do see is that they invoke harsh justice that doesn't take into account criminal rights. You're complaining that the elves are too perfect, whereas in my mind Keith's gone to some lengths NOT to make them perfect. He COULD have said that they possessed magical secrets humans could never hope to match. He could have said that they are the most moral beings ever to walk the earth, that they have an enlightened society and altruistic society. Instead, he says that they have no crime because they have a swift and harsh system of justice that has no mercy for criminals – which basically means that the lack of crime has evolved out of fear as much as altruism. So I'll ask you: being consistent with the preexisting material of the PHB and ECS – in other words, avoiding "elves are retards" as an answer – what did you expect this article to say? Because from your arguments all I'm getting is "I hate elves in general." But the Human doesn't do that, because the elves"produce bows the like of which a human craftsman could only dream." Doesn't exactly leave much room for improvement. Again, you're just reading what you want to read as opposed to the authors intent. Edymnion is exactly right here. The very next sentence is "But he still follows the traditions of the past, and the bow he makes today is a mirror of one that could be found in a 5,000-year-old tomb." A human will never be as good at the traditional elven arts as an elven master craftsman. But that doesn't mean that the elven arts are the ultimate achievement – the article makes clear time and again that this clinging to the past is a form of stagnation. No human can make a bow to match that of an elven master. But he can make a crossbow. A new form of compound bow incorporating new materials or systems discovered within the last 5,000 years. Or, for that matter, a gun. The elves are the best at what they do, and the ECS has already said that they are some of the best craftsmen in Eberron. But the edge that humanity has is innovation, which is why we're already closing the magic gap. In a thousand years, humanity my be beating the elves on every level. remember, the elves only have a useful learning time of 200-300 years. How's that? In the magical world of D&D, people actually get smarter as they age. An elf has a minimum natural lifespan of 350 years, with an average lifespan of 550 years, and a maximum of 750 years. He actually gets SMARTER in those final centuries – he may be incredibly frail, but he's got a +3 to all mental ability scores. This is reflected by the elf cook in Sharn, the 18th-level commoner – Hellcow's observed that you could kill her by sneezing on her, but she's had hundreds of years to practice and master different cooking techniques, hence her being 18th level. Excpet for, you know, the DRAGONS That are trying to invade. A valid point, but in my (entirely personal) view the battles between the elves and the dragons don't necessarily involve a great deal of direct conflict between elf and dragon – they are more battles between the Undying Court and the dragons. Without the Undying Court, the island would have been wiped out long ago – and thus, the conflict may mostly occur in the skys above Aerenal and never reach the elves below. On the other hand, we know that orcish civilization – along with that of the goblinoids – was almost completely destroyed by the daelkyr, and that this was a ground war that inflicted massive casualties. They still invented computers during the ice ages Again, I have to say: what on earth is your point? Let's switch back to magic as opposed to computers. My point was that elves had magic 30,000 years ago, but haven't advanced it much since then. Yours, as best as I can tell, is "Yeah, but they had magic 30,000 years ago, which makes them too cool to be allowed to exist." Are you playing Eberron? The fact that the elves had magic 30,000 years ago is a clearly established part of the setting. They fought the giants to a near standstill. For this article to claim otherwise would be a bizarre violation of everything that's come before. Even there, it's worth questioning whether the elves even invented their magical techniques in the first place, or whether they simply sponged them off of the giants to begin with – making them more pathetic than the humans who developed their own traditions. You don't like elves. I get that. But what I'm not seeing is how this article fails to advance the elves presented in the ECS in a logical manner. So setting aside your wish that the elves be retards – since it's clear that was never intended in the setting – what would have made you happy? And I'll ask again - for all your saying that they are presented as being "holy and good", if you could live anywhere in Eberron, would you choose Aerenal? Would you want to be an Aerenal elf? As I said, I'll take freedom and innovation over security and stagnation any day. |
| The Dreaming Duck05-31-05, 06:03 PM | Hmmm. Simple enough answer, but it doesn't really explain/support your argument. I mean, I can draw a lot of conclusions from that one word, but I don't automatically see druids being focused on healing. Druids revere nature, and nature has consistently demonstrated that only the fittest should survive. Especially the Children of Winter. Furthermore, the primary druidic tradition of the orcs are the Gatekeepers, which are noted as being a small and fading sect; the clans may be civilized, but druids aren't a major part of the clans, and until recently, you wouldn't find Jorasco outposts in the Marches. |
| The Dreaming Duck05-31-05, 06:10 PM | Well, if I were 15 feet tall with a Str of 29 and a mastery of magic that Khorvairian civilization has yet to reach, I think that big strong slaves might be obsolete. Perhaps I would want slaves to entertain me. Maybe I would want them to spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week studying magic and creating new spells for me to learn. Perhaps they could be used to craft magical items so that I don't have to spend a lot of my own time and life force so that I can have tons of enchanted items. Maybe I would teach them to think outside the box. A fascinating point. After all, a dedicated wright is tiny and a human is medium - a 2-size category difference. In other words, the same as a huge giant to a medium elf. Perhaps the elves were the dedicated wrights of the giants! With that said, I haven't seen anything indicating that the ELVES as a race were created by the giants. The Ring of Storms article implies the exact opposite, because long before the elven Rebellion, the Qabalrin were a society shunned by giants and other elves alike. Hellcow has said that the drow may have been created by giants modifying elves - but that doesn't mean the elves weren't there to begin with. And as long as the elves ARE there, it comes to a "use what you've got." Digging quarries, building homes - sure, a giant might do it faster, but why should the giant bother when he can have six elves do it for him? Humans aren't smarter than elves. What could possibly lead you to that conclusion? Neither are smarter than the other, they just do things differently. I mean, if you don't like the race, fine. But you're not going to convince anyone unless you have something to support it with. Hear, hear. If you hate elves and wish that they weren't in Eberron or D&D at all, good for you. But this is a thread about the DRAGONSHARD - and if you feel that the Dragonshard has distorted the material of the ECS and PHB and concealed their great stupidity, I'd like to hear how. |
| Sarlax05-31-05, 06:34 PM | Humans aren't smarter than elves. What could possibly lead you to that conclusion? While I'm not on the "Elves blow and so this dragonshard suckz d00d!" side of the debate, it's not unreasonable to think humans might be smarter than elves. Humans learn a lot faster than elves. Faster than many races, actually. Even a race with +2 Intelligence has the same number of skill points as a human, on average. They have the bonus feat, too. They have "Any" as their favored class, which allows them to learn many different abilities. Altogether, it's a fair position to take that humans are smarter than elves - and every other race in the PHB or ECS. |
| ydirbut05-31-05, 06:58 PM | Because everyone else is CR 1, right? Most people (minimum 80%)are level 1 commoners. Well, if I were 15 feet tall with a Str of 29 and a mastery of magic that Khorvairian civilization has yet to reach, I think that big strong slaves might be obsolete. Perhaps I would want slaves to entertain me. Maybe I would want them to spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week studying magic and creating new spells for me to learn. Perhaps they could be used to craft magical items so that I don't have to spend a lot of my own time and life force so that I can have tons of enchanted items. Maybe I would teach them to think outside the box. How does a 15 foot tall giant with a str of 29 raise crops? Humans aren't smarter than elves. What could possibly lead you to that conclusion? Neither are smarter than the other, they just do things differently. I mean, if you don't like the race, fine. But you're not going to convince anyone unless you have something to support it with. The PHB. Their 2 primary facets of intelligence, The Increased amount of skills and the Bonus to skills(knowledge mostly). Humans have that bonus, the increased amout of skills. Ergo Humans are smarter than elves(not by much though). Hmmm. Simple enough answer, but it doesn't really explain/support your argument. I mean, I can draw a lot of conclusions from that one word, but I don't automatically see druids being focused on healing. Druids revere nature, and nature has consistently demonstrated that only the fittest should survive. Which, by the way, only goes to support why Orcs have such low numbers as compared to the Elves of Aerenal. Care to elaborate your reasoning? Mages do not receive healing spells. Druids do. If The gatekeepers believed in "survival of the fittest", then Orcs almost assuredly have and ECL. They would also probably lose their light blindness Sheesh. Let's get to the bottom line here. Ydirbut, is your problem with elves as presented in the PHB and the ECS, or with elves as presented in this article? I'm not saying that's true, I'm saying that COULD explain why the Elves aren't perfect. I don't know what you expected to see in an article on Aerenal elves. I expected an article that was consistent with what had been said about Aerenal in the ECS and about elves in the PHB. If the article had said "The giants bred a short attention span and early senility into the elves, and the elves aren't a match for human cultures on any front", I'd say "What the %&$?" Have you ever played the video game Dark Reign It's Sci-fi, but the basic plot concern a fight between the empire type organization and the rebels, who are descended from convicts that have a sort of kill switch built in, almost all die areound 25. Something like that, but without the dying. The PHB provides no indication that elves suffer from ANY reduced mental capacity, which is something that should show up as a stat adjustment. The ECS says that the elves "concern themselves with events that cover the sweep of centuries" – which downplays the idea of early senility. And yet Elves will only live for 500 years tops. On the same page, it says that the elves are some of the best woodworkers on Eberron – IE, they produce bows human craftsmen can only dream of. It says that they are among the most accomplished wizards of Eberron – so if this article said otherwise, it would be blatantly contradicting the ECS. And it talks about their racial pride and arrogance, which to my mind is exactly what is being implied by the "outsiders are noisy and ignorant" line. It's not a statement that outsiders ARE ignorant – it's that arrogant elves consider them to be so. And yet, in the article, while it uses a Bowyer as an example, applies to all elves. In my opinion, this article expands on the culture in a consistent manner, while presenting the flaws of the civilizations. They have a very rigid society, lack innovation, and have a low opinion of individual rights. 2 flaws is all that they have? Nothing is said about their alignment; I see nothing that indicates altruism, and what I do see is that they invoke harsh justice that doesn't take into account criminal rights. You're complaining that the elves are too perfect, whereas in my mind Keith's gone to some lengths NOT to make them perfect. They are less "perfect" than they are in many other settings, which is something I like, but they still seem "too perfect." (By the way, since when did we have varying degrees of perfect?) He COULD have said that they possessed magical secrets humans could never hope to match. He could have said that they are the most moral beings ever to walk the earth, that they have an enlightened society and altruistic society. Like I said, I dislike Elves in eberron much less than I dislike elves in other settings. Instead, he says that they have no crime because they have a swift and harsh system of justice that has no mercy for criminals – which basically means that the lack of crime has evolved out of fear as much as altruism. I imagine the Justice systems of the other nation are not exactly merciful either, adn yet they have huge problems with crime. So I'll ask you: being consistent with the preexisting material of the PHB and ECS – in other words, avoiding "elves are retards" as an answer – what did you expect this article to say? Because from your arguments all I'm getting is "I hate elves in general." probably because I do :P . I still feel that they are "too perfect" Again, you're just reading what you want to read as opposed to the authors intent. Edymnion is exactly right here. The very next sentence is "But he still follows the traditions of the past, and the bow he makes today is a mirror of one that could be found in a 5,000-year-old tomb." A human will never be as good at the traditional elven arts as an elven master craftsman. Convenient how The technology of the elves perfectly matches that of the humans. But that doesn't mean that the elven arts are the ultimate achievement – the article makes clear time and again that this clinging to the past is a form of stagnation. No human can make a bow to match that of an elven master. But he can make a crossbow. A new form of compound bow incorporating new materials or systems discovered within the last 5,000 years. Like Plastic or gunpowder, neither of which exist in eberron? Or, for that matter, a gun. The elves are the best at what they do, and the ECS has already said that they are some of the best craftsmen in Eberron. But the edge that humanity has is innovation, which is why we're already closing the magic gap. In a thousand years, humanity my be beating the elves on every level. A thousand years? I bet eberron will never progress that far. If it does, I bet their will be a cultural revolution that causes the elves to shake of their lehtargy. I totally typed the answer above this before I saw the "gun" part of your post. A valid point, but in my (entirely personal) view the battles between the elves and the dragons don't necessarily involve a great deal of direct conflict between elf and dragon – they are more battles between the Undying Court and the dragons. Without the Undying Court, the island would have been wiped out long ago – and thus, the conflict may mostly occur in the skys above Aerenal and never reach the elves below. On the other hand, we know that orcish civilization – along with that of the goblinoids – was almost completely destroyed by the daelkyr, and that this was a ground war that inflicted massive casualties. Yeah, the Super-intelligent Dragons would never have figured out to, you know, attack the elves base of support. The Daelkyr invasion happened 9000 years ago. The Orcs would have had plenty of time to recover. Again, I have to say: what on earth is your point? Let's switch back to magic as opposed to computers. My point was that elves had magic 30,000 years ago, but haven't advanced it much since then. Yours, as best as I can tell, is "Yeah, but they had magic 30,000 years ago, which makes them too cool to be allowed to exist." Yes, but they also must invented every other technological inovation between then and now. To put in perspective, 30 thousand years ago, we where still in the stone age. Are you playing Eberron? The fact that the elves had magic 30,000 years ago is a clearly established part of the setting. They fought the giants to a near standstill. For this article to claim otherwise would be a bizarre violation of everything that's come before. Even there, it's worth questioning whether the elves even invented their magical techniques in the first place, or whether they simply sponged them off of the giants to begin with – making them more pathetic than the humans who developed their own traditions. See above post. And I'll ask again - for all your saying that they are presented as being "holy and good", if you could live anywhere in Eberron, would you choose Aerenal? Would you want to be an Aerenal elf? As I said, I'll take freedom and innovation over security and stagnation any day. No, but only because I hate elves. Especially the Children of Winter. Furthermore, the primary druidic tradition of the orcs are the Gatekeepers, which are noted as being a small and fading sect; the clans may be civilized, but druids aren't a major part of the clans, and until recently, you wouldn't find Jorasco outposts in the Marches. Now they are a small sect. It was not always so. A fascinating point. After all, a dedicated wright is tiny and a human is medium - a 2-size category difference. In other words, the same as a huge giant to a medium elf. Perhaps the elves were the dedicated wrights of the giants! Possibly. With that said, I haven't seen anything indicating that the ELVES as a race were created by the giants. The Ring of Storms article implies the exact opposite, because long before the elven Rebellion, the Qabalrin were a society shunned by giants and other elves alike. Hellcow has said that the drow may have been created by giants modifying elves - but that doesn't mean the elves weren't there to begin with. And as long as the elves ARE there, it comes to a "use what you've got." Digging quarries, building homes - sure, a giant might do it faster, but why should the giant bother when he can have six elves do it for him? THe Giants had 40,000 years to breed the elves. Also it takes 110 years for the elf to learn what the human learns in 15. |
| Gurv05-31-05, 07:46 PM | I thought the article did a good job of explaining that elves are not perfect. They are rigid traditionalists who are quickly being overtaken by other races in many areas. Although they might have been the first of the "player races" to have powerful magic and a strong civilization, they are not growing at the same rate. I don't see where it even suggests that they are "good and holy". It also doesn't say that they're bad people, or a bunch of losers. But it hardly paints them as a superior race or culture. Just an old one that has had a lot of time to become powerful. Of course, they think that their ways are best or else they wouldn't have stuck with them for so long. The elven lifespan is cited as part of the reason why they are tradition-bound, and as part of the reason that they are so good at many things. I guess I am just missing why this became a debate about whether elves are superior or inferior to humans. They're not, and nothing ever said that they are. The article said that they are masters of various things and that humans and other races have yet to come close to matching them in those areas. The article also made a point about how the elven sense of tradition is preventing them from improving. Essentially the elves are ahead right now, but everyone else is catching up. |
| EscherEnigma05-31-05, 08:43 PM | I'd just like to point out that, from the Ask Keith Baker FAQ, the reason the elves have been able to hold the dragons off so long is: On a related note, I don't understand how the dragons and the elves of Aerenal could have been in conflict for ten millenia without the dragons obliterating the Undying. Again, it only takes 1200 years to produce a new great wyrm, and a single wyrm is more than a match for an ascendant councillor. How on earth could the elves have successfully repelled the dragons so often? Because you're not dealing with a great wyrm fighting an ascendant councilor. The powers of the individual members of the Undying Court are trivial in comparison to the power of the Court as a combined force. It's a similar idea to a psionic metaconcert. Note that the elves worship "the Undying Court", not members of the court – and that this force seems to have the power of a god, seeing as how it grants spells. The limitation is that the power of the Court is bound both to Aerenal and the elven race – and there is a limit to how far they can exert this great power. But when challenged on its home turf, the Undying Court may be the most powerful force in the world today, and its strength grows with every generation. . So its not really a question of a dragon landing on the island and causing chaos. It really IS the Undying Court vs. the Dragons, and beings gods (as a group, not individuals) they can match the Dragon's power, but away from the island this dwindles. For more elaboration on this you can look through the faq some more, or ask Keith yourself. Random note on the rants about elves: I've understood the +1 skill point a level and extra feat the humans get to represent their adaptability, not any intelligence. If it was supposed to represent intelligence, it would just be a sraight +2 to int. As is, they can learn more skills in as many levels as an equally intelligent elf, and have one more feat, but they aren't actually more intelligent, just more versatile. As for the whole 'perfect elves' thing... they aren't. They're arrogant, have a stagnant society, have created one of the worst necromancers in the world, picked a fight with their saviors (okay, maybe not 'picked a fight', but the dragons DID stop the giants from destroying them during their uprising, and they ARE in a millenia old conflict with the dragons now), had civil wars that lead to entire families leaving for good. On the other hand, they are perfect at SOME things, like their crafts. They can make perfect replicas of the weapons their ancestors used, and this level of devotion to a single craft is probably mirrored throughout their society. They choose one thing to perfect, and they do. But its NEVER something new, its always something old. They're perfect at mirroring the past. Back on the not-perfect thing, their stuborn adherance to tradition is driving off the younger generations, who are starting to rebel against their elders by seeking undeath in whatever way they can. So perfect? Hardly. Lawful to the n-th degree? Yeah. |
| The Dreaming Duck05-31-05, 08:56 PM | The PHB. Their 2 primary facets of intelligence, The Increased amount of skills and the Bonus to skills(knowledge mostly). Humans have that bonus, the increased amout of skills. Ergo Humans are smarter than elves(not by much though). Aha! A very good argument. But a human commoner and an elf commoner of the same level, and same intelligence who both focus on, say, Profession (Farmer) will have the same skill modifier. The human can have MORE skills, but he can't actually be better at those skills, because maximum ranks are determined by level... and despite the extra feat, you can't devote more than one Skill Focus to a single skill. So humans are more adapatable and versatile than elves - which this article certainly makes clear. To me, this is saying that there are more 8th-level commoners among the elves than humans, because the elves have more time to gain that level of skill. But a 1st-level human commoner will have more skills than the elf – and it's this versatility that makes humans the dominant race in this and most other settings. I'm not saying that's true, I'm saying that COULD explain why the Elves aren't perfect. Have you ever played the video game Dark Reign It's Sci-fi, but the basic plot concern a fight between the empire type organization and the rebels, who are descended from convicts that have a sort of kill switch built in, almost all die areound 25. Something like that, but without the dying. My point is that while this is a way to explain why elves wouldn't be perfect, it's also contraindicated by all the material on Aerenal so far. The elves are, more or less, all about long life and immortality – not dying (or suffering senility, or whatever) at an unexpectedly early age. So this article isn't at fault for failing to put something like that in, even if it would make you happy if it did. And yet Elves will only live for 500 years tops. I think we're looking at different sources. I see max age 350 + 4d%, which comes to a maximum age of 750. And in AERENAL, elves may then become deathless, who are apparently immortal. So we're back to the "Are we talking about elves, or are we talking about the Aereni?" Two flaws is all that they have? If that's all you care to see. I see many more. Just as I see "Other races are ignorant" as a flaw – an indication of elven close-minded arrogance – while you seem to see it as a statement that other races ARE ignorant. Basically, you don't want elves to be perfect, but you seem to be obsessing with their advantages and refusing to see their flaws. Both Endymnion and I are perfectly happy reading that "things human craftsmen can only dream at" line as "when they are working on the same fields, but humans unlike elves can advance to develop new techniques" – you're the one insisting that it means no human can ever match an elf, period. If you dislike elves so much, why do you refuse to acknowledge the flaws that are already implied? I imagine the Justice systems of the other nation are not exactly merciful either, adn yet they have huge problems with crime. Actually, the Code of Galifar presumes innocence and requires due process – both of which I'd call 'merciful'. If I was accused of shoplifting, I know which court I'd rather end up in. Aerenal also has a more monolithic culture, driven by shared religious belief, controlled breeding, etc (IE "You're a criminal? Forget about ever having a child or becoming immortal"); Khorvaire is filled with a far wider range of cults and beliefs, which are likely to generate crime. If it does, I bet their will be a cultural revolution that causes the elves to shake of their lehtargy. Again, now you're the one defending the elves from what I see as one of their biggest flaws. If they were going to have a cultural revolution, I think they'd have had one by now. Yeah, the Super-intelligent Dragons would never have figured out to, you know, attack the elves base of support. What makes you say that? Everything I've seen implies that the reason the dragons are attacking the elves is because they want to destroy the Undying Court. It's just that when you're attack an island protected by a godlike power, you may not get to choose the field of battle. Also it takes 110 years for the elf to learn what the human learns in 15. There's no clear basis for this. It takes 110 years for an elf to be considered an adult in Elven society. In a culture as hidebound as Aerenal, there could be hundreds of reasons for this: from "he needs to memorize the names of every elf ever born" to "until you've passed a century, you just don't have the perspective to drink or vote." I don't own Races of the Wild, but I'm pretty darn sure it took this approach – saying that elves mature mentally just as quickly as humans, but their society has very different values. The most obvious example of this is player characters. It takes an elf far longer to become a first-level wizard than a human. But it takes them EXACTLY the same amount of time to get to second level, improving spellcasting ability, knowledge skills, etc. Which, to me, just shows that elven "wizarding school" is far more strict in its curriculum, forcing its students to spend years learning useless trivia that has no game impact. Yes, you can cast burning hands, but you still don't have perfect pitch in your incantation – try in a thousand more times, and talk to me when you are done. Thus, they aren't stupid, but they aren't perfect either – they are hidebound and weighted down by tradition, potentially holding themselves back from their own true potential. |
| The Dreaming Duck05-31-05, 09:02 PM | As for the whole 'perfect elves' thing... they aren't. They're arrogant, have a stagnant society, have created one of the worst necromancers in the world, picked a fight with their saviors... had civil wars that lead to entire families leaving for good. On the other hand, they are perfect at SOME things, like their crafts. They can make perfect replicas of the weapons their ancestors used, and this level of devotion to a single craft is probably mirrored throughout their society. They choose one thing to perfect, and they do. But its NEVER something new, its always something old. They're perfect at mirroring the past. Great post all around. Your point about +1 skill point/level vs +2 Int is a good one - if the human had +2 Int, he WOULD be better at all Craft and Knowledge skills than his elf counterpart; as is, he just has more skills. |
| ydirbut05-31-05, 09:49 PM | Ok let's take some assumption. Lets use the example in the Dragonshard, an elf swordsmith decided to craft a copy of the sword from 5000 years ago. Only Swords from 5,000 years ago don't exist in the real world, because we where still in the stone age. Now, I know that Elven culture is so advanced and stagnat, but it doesn't seem to have any of the downsides of the "stagnant" part. Plus other races would have gained the Tech via technological diffusion. Aha! A very good argument. But a human commoner and an elf commoner of the same level, and same intelligence who both focus on, say, Profession (Farmer) will have the same skill modifier. The human can have MORE skills, but he can't actually be better at those skills, because maximum ranks are determined by level... and despite the extra feat, you can't devote more than one Skill Focus to a single skill. So humans are more adapatable and versatile than elves - which this article certainly makes clear. To me, this is saying that there are more 8th-level commoners among the elves than humans, because the elves have more time to gain that level of skill. But a 1st-level human commoner will have more skills than the elf – and it's this versatility that makes humans the dominant race in this and most other settings. Possible. My point is that while this is a way to explain why elves wouldn't be perfect, it's also contraindicated by all the material on Aerenal so far. The elves are, more or less, all about long life and immortality – not dying (or suffering senility, or whatever) at an unexpectedly early age. So this article isn't at fault for failing to put something like that in, even if it would make you happy if it did. It could explain why they developed the deathless. I think we're looking at different sources. I see max age 350 + 4d%, which comes to a maximum age of 750. And in AERENAL, elves may then become deathless, who are apparently immortal. So we're back to the "Are we talking about elves, or are we talking about the Aereni?" I just can't read and though it was 2d% :( . If that's all you care to see. I see many more. Just as I see "Other races are ignorant" as a flaw – an indication of elven close-minded arrogance – while you seem to see it as a statement that other races ARE ignorant. Basically, you don't want elves to be perfect, but you seem to be obsessing with their advantages and refusing to see their flaws. Both Endymnion and I are perfectly happy reading that "things human craftsmen can only dream at" line as "when they are working on the same fields, but humans unlike elves can advance to develop new techniques" – you're the one insisting that it means no human can ever match an elf, period. If you dislike elves so much, why do you refuse to acknowledge the flaws that are already implied? ok, 3, one of which is shared by virtually every other society on eberron. Actually, the Code of Galifar presumes innocence and requires due process – both of which I'd call 'merciful'. If I was accused of shoplifting, I know which court I'd rather end up in. Aerenal also has a more monolithic culture, driven by shared religious belief, controlled breeding, etc (IE "You're a criminal? Forget about ever having a child or becoming immortal"); Khorvaire is filled with a far wider range of cults and beliefs, which are likely to generate crime. ok, I concede the "justice" point. Again, now you're the one defending the elves from what I see as one of their biggest flaws. If they were going to have a cultural revolution, I think they'd have had one by now. I bet that at some point in the future, there will be a cultural revolution in eberron. I'm not saying I'm going to like that, i'm just saying it'll probably happen. What makes you say that? Everything I've seen implies that the reason the dragons are attacking the elves is because they want to destroy the Undying Court. It's just that when you're attack an island protected by a godlike power, you may not get to choose the field of battle. Yeah, but the Undying Court recieves it's power from it's worshippers. Additionally, that gives the elves a living(or perhaps I should say undying) god, which last time I checked, was something eberron was trying to get away from. There's no clear basis for this. It takes 110 years for an elf to be considered an adult in Elven society. In a culture as hidebound as Aerenal, there could be hundreds of reasons for this: from "he needs to memorize the names of every elf ever born" to "until you've passed a century, you just don't have the perspective to drink or vote." I don't own Races of the Wild, but I'm pretty darn sure it took this approach – saying that elves mature mentally just as quickly as humans, but their society has very different values. The most obvious example of this is player characters. It takes an elf far longer to become a first-level wizard than a human. But it takes them EXACTLY the same amount of time to get to second level, improving spellcasting ability, knowledge skills, etc. Which, to me, just shows that elven "wizarding school" is far more strict in its curriculum, forcing its students to spend years learning useless trivia that has no game impact. Yes, you can cast burning hands, but you still don't have perfect pitch in your incantation – try in a thousand more times, and talk to me when you are done. Thus, they aren't stupid, but they aren't perfect either – they are hidebound and weighted down by tradition, potentially holding themselves back from their own true potential. Ah. I guess none of that pre-110 training involves their eventuall class, because that adds further time. Plus if that were true, they would gain some bonus from it,no? Let's compare Aerenal Vs. Breland No crime Rampant Crime prejudiced Vs. Outsiders prejudiced Vs. Outsiders Lving God unknown god Master Craftsman Skilled craftsman No war Spent last 100 years killing fellow galifarians Incredible powerfull Undying Some reasonably powerfull humans |
| Euangelion05-31-05, 11:23 PM | The real question that needs to be answered for me isn't "Why aren't Aerenal elves so much better at bowmaking and arcane magic than Khorvaire humans at this time?" but "Why aren't Khorvaire elves, who are as long lived as Aerenal elves but not constrained by Aerenal culture, not significantly more advanced than the other races of Khorvaire in everything they do?" |
| ydirbut05-31-05, 11:40 PM | I imagine the death rate of the Valenar can't be good. |
| Gurv05-31-05, 11:51 PM | I must be missing the point. What, exactly, is the problem here? The elves have an ancient civilization that is very powerful. Is that the problem? That the elves have a more powerful civilization than humans? As I read is, it is true that the elves have a more powerful civilization. But there is one thing that seems to balance that, at least in my eyes. Their civilization sucks. It sucks a lot. It has solved many social problems, but it is so stagnated and boring that anyone who isn't properly brainwashed into accepting it leaves as soon as they can. Someone has to have the most powerful civilization. One of the PC races must be the one with the oldest society. It happens to be the elves, and it is a traditional role, the archetypical ancient elves. It isn't the humans, because...well, because that doesn't make a very cool story, now does it? The humans are supposed to be the ones who have the most eventful history, with all the explosions and exciting events. Nothing has happened on Aerenal worth putting on a timeline since the fall of House Vol, and before that, the founding of the nation. So they're a bunch of master craftsmen with some ancient magic, some immortality rituals, and godlike leaders. And you know what? There isn't anything to do on Aerenal because of it. The place is enough to bore anyone but a scholar to tears. I mean, what are we, jealous that the humans don't have all of that, so we have to come up with reasons why the elves shouldn't.? Should we write to WotC and demand that they realize that humans should have just as much, if not more, and that the elven life span is a poor excuse favoring them with so much? That would be perfect. WotC could make all the human nations crimeless, monster-less, danger-free areas that have lived in utter peace with one another for centuries. :bored: That would save us all a couple hours a week, now wouldn't it? Listen. For story purposes, they want to have one extremely stable society that has been around for a long while. Mostly for contrast, I would imagine. They picked the elves, because they had other roles for the other races, and because it makes the most sense to have the longest lived race fill the spot. It isn't favoritism. The Aerenal elves suck so much as PCs that the designers were forced to create the Valenar just to make the elves playable again. The Aerenal exist also entirely as a plot point. Aerenal PCs are generally those who have rejected the tradition or at the very least taken a vastly different approach to them. Even Keith has said that the Deathless domain is mostly for NPCs. |
| ydirbut06-01-05, 12:06 AM | I must be missing the point. What, exactly, is the problem here? The elves have an ancient civilization that is very powerful. Is that the problem? That the elves have a more powerful civilization than humans? No. My problem is that the Elf Civilization lacks Depth. As I read is, it is true that the elves have a more powerful civilization. But there is one thing that seems to balance that, at least in my eyes. Their civilization sucks. It sucks a lot. It has solved many social problems, but it is so stagnated and boring that anyone who isn't properly brainwashed into accepting it leaves as soon as they can. Name downsides from this "stagnation". Someone has to have the most powerful civilization. One of the PC races must be the one with the oldest society. It happens to be the elves, and it is a traditional role, the archetypical ancient elves. It isn't the humans, because...well, because that doesn't make a very cool story, now does it? The humans are supposed to be the ones who have the most eventful history, with all the explosions and exciting events. Nothing has happened on Aerenal worth putting on a timeline since the fall of House Vol, and before that, the founding of the nation. But I thought Eberron was about sticking to the Cliche? So they're a bunch of master craftsmen with some ancient magic, some immortality rituals, and godlike leaders. And you know what? There isn't anything to do on Aerenal because of it. The place is enough to bore anyone but a scholar to tears. I mean, what are we, jealous that the humans don't have all of that, so we have to come up with reasons why the elves shouldn't.? Should we write to WotC and demand that they realize that humans should have just as much, if not more, and that the elven life span is a poor excuse favoring them with so much? The fact that nothing interesting happens there is not a flaw in the culture. Yes we should :). We should found the Organization for the Removal of Elves. O.R.E. I even made an acronym. |
| ydirbut06-01-05, 12:08 AM | I must be missing the point. What, exactly, is the problem here? The elves have an ancient civilization that is very powerful. Is that the problem? That the elves have a more powerful civilization than humans? No. My problem is that the Elf Civilization lacks Depth. As I read is, it is true that the elves have a more powerful civilization. But there is one thing that seems to balance that, at least in my eyes. Their civilization sucks. It sucks a lot. It has solved many social problems, but it is so stagnated and boring that anyone who isn't properly brainwashed into accepting it leaves as soon as they can. Name downsides from this "stagnation". Someone has to have the most powerful civilization. One of the PC races must be the one with the oldest society. It happens to be the elves, and it is a traditional role, the archetypical ancient elves. It isn't the humans, because...well, because that doesn't make a very cool story, now does it? The humans are supposed to be the ones who have the most eventful history, with all the explosions and exciting events. Nothing has happened on Aerenal worth putting on a timeline since the fall of House Vol, and before that, the founding of the nation. But I thought Eberron was about sticking to the Cliche? So they're a bunch of master craftsmen with some ancient magic, some immortality rituals, and godlike leaders. And you know what? There isn't anything to do on Aerenal because of it. The place is enough to bore anyone but a scholar to tears. I mean, what are we, jealous that the humans don't have all of that, so we have to come up with reasons why the elves shouldn't.? Should we write to WotC and demand that they realize that humans should have just as much, if not more, and that the elven life span is a poor excuse favoring them with so much? The fact that nothing interesting happens there is not a flaw in the culture. Yes we should :). We should found the Organization for the Removal of Elves. O.R.E. I even made an acronym. Not to mention it's not that useful as an adventure setting. |
| Euangelion06-01-05, 12:18 AM | I imagine the death rate of the Valenar can't be good. I'm not referring to the Valenar, I'm referring to the elves that have lived in Galifar (and what's left of it) for a thousand years, the elves that culturally are as Brelish or Aundarian as any human/half-elf/dwarft etc. except they happen to live for 500+ years. |
| The Dreaming Duck06-01-05, 12:53 AM | Now, I know that Elven culture is so advanced and stagnat, but it doesn't seem to have any of the downsides of the "stagnant" part. Sure it does. You yourself say that over the course of 5,000 years, humans went from the Stone Age to swords. Elves had swords 30,000 years ago, and they are STILL using swords. It's not a miracle that they had swords 30,000 years ago, because their culture goes back far longer than that – more than 5,000 years before that, in point of fact. So the miracle – and not in a good way – is that in the time it would take humans to go from clubs to gunpowder, the elves have gone nowhere. Humans and elves both use swords. The human smith may not make a sword as well as the elf, but why on earth is the elf still making swords? After 5,000 years, a human would be making lightsabers, not swords. The downside is that the elves are still using the tools that humans now match; if they were perfect, they'd be running around with lasers and spaceships (or the magical equivalent). Another thing I will note on the craft front is time. Nowhere does the article say that elves produce goods as quickly or efficiently as the people of Khorvaire. From everything else said about them, I'd assume that they don't – that "perfection" comes at the price of quantity and time. I see it as the difference between the smith who just hammers out a sword and the smith who spends a year folding and refolding the metal and retempering it using secret techniques known only to his ancestors. That sword is a work of art compared to what smith #1 makes – but smith #1 has produced 200 crappier swords in the same time period. I bet that at some point in the future, there will be a cultural revolution in eberron. I'm not saying I'm going to like that, i'm just saying it'll probably happen. I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean WotC is going to release a "Cultural revolution" supplement? What do you think it would include? Yeah, but the Undying Court recieves it's power from it's worshippers. Additionally, that gives the elves a living(or perhaps I should say undying) god, which last time I checked, was something eberron was trying to get away from. Except for the fact that the Undying Court has been a part of Eberron from the very beginning. I would say that Eberron is trying to get away from "Anthropomorphic deities that play an active role in the world, and that you could hang out with." The Undying Court is a vast entity (since Hellcow has made clear that it's the gestalt that is godlike, not the individuals that comprise it) and its power is greatly limited beyond Aerenal. So it can't pop into Breland to save the day – which in my mind is one of the big points of the "mysterious gods" thing. Ah. I guess none of that pre-110 training involves their eventuall class, because that adds further time. Why on earth would you assume that? A human can be an apprentice for a trade before he is technically an "adult", and if the trade is more complex it will take him longer to master it even after he is an adult. A human wizard could easily start an apprenticeship as a wizard before he's fifteen, and I'd assume an elf starts before he's 110. It just takes longer to become a wizard than a fighter, for either race. Plus if that were true, they would gain some bonus from it,no? Why? This is my point of stagnant technique. The human can learn the technique to produce a burning hands spell in a year. So can the elf, if left alone. But the Aereni techniques require the character to precisely replicate the hand gestures used by their ancestors, and to add an extra flourish, because that's how it's already been done. And if that takes you a thousand extra castings, so be it. You don't cast it unless it's PERFECT. And in this case, "perfect" doesn't mean "better" – because you could still generate the same effect with your sloppy hand gestures that you learned in a year. Again, if you feel that elves are stupid slow learners – how do you justify the elf going from 1st-2nd level in the same time as the human? Let's compare Sure, let's. Apparently neither of us have anything better to do with our time, which is sad. Aerenal Vs. Breland No crime Rampant Crime Or, as I like to see it, "Thousands of years under a harsh system of justice that offers little protection for the accused and under which convicted criminals lose both the chance to have children or enter the Undying Court, which is to say both figurative and literal immortality, in addition to being a stultifying atmosphere under which people are encourage to conform with tradition from birth, along with having little contact with outsiders" vs "A society where people are protected under the law and encouraged to believe that they have personal rights, where independence and innovation are valued, and where they regularly interact with people who have both different beliefs and come from different nationalities." Sure, Aerenal has less crime. But that's because it fundamentally has less freedom – which comes back to those flaws. So again, it's a question of what's more important to you: security or freedom. I don't think that's a simple question, and certainly not the easy victory for the elves you seem to be implying it is. I suspect that most of us on the boards would be happier living in Breland, even if we knew that we'd have to be idiots to go into Fallen after dark. prejudiced Vs. Outsiders prejudiced Vs. Outsiders Certainly. Though you still SEE more outsiders in Breland than Aerenal; there's 1% other in Aerenal, and most of that in Pylas Talaer, compared to Breland being very metropolitan. Lving God unknown god And this is a victory for who? My cleric of the Sovereign Host can still perform miracles, even if I can't prove the Sovereigns exist. And I don't even have to match their alignment. Sure, on the elf side, the Undying Court is their to protect them from dragons. But on the down side, it completely dominates elven life and society. How CAN we question tradition, when the Court is right among us in all its godlike power? If we decided to rebel, would we be crushed as quickly as Vol was? Master Craftsman Skilled craftsman Certainly. But MORE skilled craftsmen, producing far more goods. No war Spent last 100 years killing fellow galifarians *shrug* Virtually no contact with outside world, virtually no innovation or freedom = no war. You decide if it's worth it. And heck, in the elven timespan, the civil war against Vol wasn't that long ago. Incredible powerfull Undying Some reasonably powerfull humans With the understanding that those incredibly powerful Undying are largely bound to Shae Mordai, bound by elven tradition, and are at this point pretty strange, alien beings more concerned with contemplating the universe than getting involved in the world. The reasonably powerful humans are HUMAN – which in my mind counts for a lot. We don't know the names of any members of the Undying Court, and I think that's intentional: because they aren't relevant as individuals, but only as a collective force. Overall, the whole thing doesn't seem like a blanket win for Aerenal on any account. The elves are different from humans. They possess considerable magical power. But they aren't as powerful as they should be – or as powerful as HUMANS would be, if they were in their position. Where do you think human society will be in 30,000 years? In many ways, the elves aren't perfect or powerful – they're pathetic, and concealing it beneath the power of the Undying Court. You may not see that as a flaw, but I see it as a MAJOR flaw. And as for no depth, well, we've only seen part one, and beyond that, I must disagree. Elves are inherently difficult to deal with because of their long lifespans. I think that this addresses many of the problems I have with this issue, and the question of freedom vs. security is certainly an interesting one philosophically. It's not a human society, and it shouldn't be, because they're elves. But, again, given that this article is only half-over, it's a little early to make any judgments; I may hate what comes next. Who knows! |
| The Dreaming Duck06-01-05, 01:06 AM | No. My problem is that the Elf Civilization lacks Depth. Interesting. So - if you feel that the article is a failure and has created a society that lacks depth - can you do better? I would imagine you've written as many words as are in the Dragonshard just in this thread. You've mentioned a few ideas. So why not post your own Dragonshard on the subject on the Races board? "What the Aerenal Elves SHOULD Be"? This may sound like a snide response, but I mean it quite seriously. I think that the article does a good job of exploring the Aereni as they have been presented so far, and developing them in a logical context with the world. You clearly don't, and apparently have an idea as to what it should have been. So please, share it with us and we can all stop arguing. Either there's a better way to present the elves of Aerenal, in which case I'd love to see what you have in mind - or we're arguing about the existence of elves in general, in which case I don't see the point. |
| Edymnion06-01-05, 01:08 AM | No. My problem is that the Elf Civilization lacks Depth.How so? They've had just as much backstory as the other races. If you want a race that lacks depth, try the Shifters. Wow, they're beast people. Thats it. They do nothing more in their culture but run around hunting and killing things like animals. I mean, they are completely flat as a race. Name downsides from this "stagnation".They're 30,000 years behind where they should be? Look at the real world. The western world spent hundreds of years in the Dark Ages. Where would we be right now if those hundreds of years had been moving at the same pace as the Rennesaince and the modern age have? We wouldn't just be living on mars, we would likely be colonizing other star systems by this point. I call that a really bad effect of stagnation. But I thought Eberron was about sticking to the Cliche?And the cliche is that elves are an ancient, knowledgable, and powerful race. You know, you don't like elves. Thats fine. Nobody said you had to. But you're not going to be able to force your opinion that all elves are senile retards that can't pay attention to something for more than 5 minutes on anybody here. And we're obviously not going to be able to convince you to give Eberron elves a fair shot either. If you want to fix elves, then go righ ahead. Its your game, you can do whatever you like with them. Just make sure and tell your players ahead of time so they know not to try and be one of the core races in your campaign. ;) |
| ydirbut06-01-05, 01:38 AM | Sure it does. You yourself say that over the course of 5,000 years, humans went from the Stone Age to swords. Elves had swords 30,000 years ago, and they are STILL using swords. It's not a miracle that they had swords 30,000 years ago, because their culture goes back far longer than that – more than 5,000 years before that, in point of fact. So the miracle – and not in a good way – is that in the time it would take humans to go from clubs to gunpowder, the elves have gone nowhere. Humans and elves both use swords. The human smith may not make a sword as well as the elf, but why on earth is the elf still making swords? After 5,000 years, a human would be making lightsabers, not swords. The downside is that the elves are still using the tools that humans now match; if they were perfect, they'd be running around with lasers and spaceships (or the magical equivalent). But the Human Civilization has been around for a MINIMUM of 20,000 years. I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean WotC is going to release a "Cultural revolution" supplement? What do you think it would include? I would put money down(if I had any :) ) that the elves culture will change before it's Stagnation becomes a serious problem. Except for the fact that the Undying Court has been a part of Eberron from the very beginning. I would say that Eberron is trying to get away from "Anthropomorphic deities that play an active role in the world, and that you could hang out with." The Undying Court is a vast entity (since Hellcow has made clear that it's the gestalt that is godlike, not the individuals that comprise it) and its power is greatly limited beyond Aerenal. So it can't pop into Breland to save the day – which in my mind is one of the big points of the "mysterious gods" thing. It's still a godlike thing. Organization, what ever, it doesn't matter. Why on earth would you assume that? A human can be an apprentice for a trade before he is technically an "adult", and if the trade is more complex it will take him longer to master it even after he is an adult. A human wizard could easily start an apprenticeship as a wizard before he's fifteen, and I'd assume an elf starts before he's 110. It just takes longer to become a wizard than a fighter, for either race. After the age of 110, it takes 5 times as long for an elf to learn the magical arts as a human. Why? This is my point of stagnant technique. The human can learn the technique to produce a burning hands spell in a year. So can the elf, if left alone. But the Aereni techniques require the character to precisely replicate the hand gestures used by their ancestors, and to add an extra flourish, because that's how it's already been done. And if that takes you a thousand extra castings, so be it. You don't cast it unless it's PERFECT. And in this case, "perfect" doesn't mean "better" – because you could still generate the same effect with your sloppy hand gestures that you learned in a year. ok. Then why don't elves gain a bonus to knowledge history or Knowledge local? Again, if you feel that elves are stupid slow learners – how do you justify the elf going from 1st-2nd level in the same time as the human? How do you explain how the fastest way to become a wizard is to be a rogue? Sure, let's. Apparently neither of us have anything better to do with our time, which is sad. incredibly. ;) Or, as I like to see it, "Thousands of years under a harsh system of justice that offers little protection for the accused and under which convicted criminals lose both the chance to have children or enter the Undying Court, which is to say both figurative and literal immortality, in addition to being a stultifying atmosphere under which people are encourage to conform with tradition from birth, along with having little contact with outsiders" vs "A society where people are protected under the law and encouraged to believe that they have personal rights, where independence and innovation are valued, and where they regularly interact with people who have both different beliefs and come from different nationalities." Sure, Aerenal has less crime. But that's because it fundamentally has less freedom – which comes back to those flaws. So again, it's a question of what's more important to you: security or freedom. I don't think that's a simple question, and certainly not the easy victory for the elves you seem to be implying it is. I suspect that most of us on the boards would be happier living in Breland, even if we knew that we'd have to be idiots to go into Fallen after dark. Breland has problems with corruption in the police force, Organized crime, Drugs,etc. Don't try to sugarcoat it. *shrug* Virtually no contact with outside world, virtually no innovation or freedom = no war. You decide if it's worth it. And heck, in the elven timespan, the civil war against Vol wasn't that long ago. That could be the reason for the elves stagnation. No conflict. With the understanding that those incredibly powerful Undying are largely bound to Shae Mordai, bound by elven tradition, and are at this point pretty strange, alien beings more concerned with contemplating the universe than getting involved in the world. The reasonably powerful humans are HUMAN – which in my mind counts for a lot. We don't know the names of any members of the Undying Court, and I think that's intentional: because they aren't relevant as individuals, but only as a collective force. CR 18 is probably more powerfull than anybody in breland. Certainly. Though you still SEE more outsiders in Breland than Aerenal; there's 1% other in Aerenal, and most of that in Pylas Talaer, compared to Breland being very metropolitan. Notice I did not say "non-humans", I said outsiders. And this is a victory for who? My cleric of the Sovereign Host can still perform miracles, even if I can't prove the Sovereigns exist. And I don't even have to match their alignment. Sure, on the elf side, the Undying Court is their to protect them from dragons. But on the down side, it completely dominates elven life and society. How CAN we question tradition, when the Court is right among us in all its godlike power? If we decided to rebel, would we be crushed as quickly as Vol was? Doesn't change the fact that you have a god. Certainly. But MORE skilled craftsmen, producing far more goods. Twice as many. How so? They've had just as much backstory as the other races. If you want a race that lacks depth, try the Shifters. Wow, they're beast people. Thats it. They do nothing more in their culture but run around hunting and killing things like animals. I mean, they are completely flat as a race. They seem one-dimensional to me. Interesting. So - if you feel that the article is a failure and has created a society that lacks depth - can you do better? I would imagine you've written as many words as are in the Dragonshard just in this thread. You've mentioned a few ideas. So why not post your own Dragonshard on the subject on the Races board? "What the Aerenal Elves SHOULD Be"? This may sound like a snide response, but I mean it quite seriously. I think that the article does a good job of exploring the Aereni as they have been presented so far, and developing them in a logical context with the world. You clearly don't, and apparently have an idea as to what it should have been. So please, share it with us and we can all stop arguing. Either there's a better way to present the elves of Aerenal, in which case I'd love to see what you have in mind - or we're arguing about the existence of elves in general, in which case I don't see the point. That's a good idea. I might do that, but don't expect it soon. They're 30,000 years behind where they should be? Look at the real world. The western world spent hundreds of years in the Dark Ages. Where would we be right now if those hundreds of years had been moving at the same pace as the Rennesaince and the modern age have? We wouldn't just be living on mars, we would likely be colonizing other star systems by this point. I call that a really bad effect of stagnation. Not neccasarily. A number of advances where made during the "Dark" age. Plus, Human Civilization has been around for almost as long, if not longer, And the cliche is that elves are an ancient, knowledgable, and powerful race. There's supposed to be an "it" in there. |
| Edymnion06-01-05, 02:07 AM | There's supposed to be an "it" in there.What? :confused: |
| Sarlax06-01-05, 02:11 AM | Or, as I like to see it, "Thousands of years under a harsh system of justice that offers little protection for the accused and under which convicted criminals lose both the chance to have children or enter the Undying Court This point is quite important. Everything about Aerenal is geared to achieving eternal life. Everyone spends centuries trying to perfectly replicate the actions of the very people who judge whether they're worthy of eternity. If you're ever convicted of a crime, you don't join the Court. That's it. In Aerenal, that's effectively a death sentence. For any crime. You have no future as an immortal and you'll never have your own family. Even a theft, if you're convicted, cuts you from your people forever. You're stuck with nothing but treading water until your permanent death - and that might be centuries away. |
| Gishsarath06-01-05, 02:47 AM | This point is quite important. Everything about Aerenal is geared to achieving eternal life. Everyone spends centuries trying to perfectly replicate the actions of the very people who judge whether they're worthy of eternity. If you're ever convicted of a crime, you don't join the Court. That's it. In Aerenal, that's effectively a death sentence. For any crime. You have no future as an immortal and you'll never have your own family. Even a theft, if you're convicted, cuts you from your people forever. You're stuck with nothing but treading water until your permanent death - and that might be centuries away. That was wonderfully insightful. Thanks! |
| EscherEnigma06-01-05, 03:49 AM | It's still a godlike thing. Organization, what ever, it doesn't matter. do you also have a problem with the silver flame? |
| The Dreaming Duck06-01-05, 04:10 AM | ok. Then why don't elves gain a bonus to knowledge history or Knowledge local? Why? All they know is "When casting burning hands, tradition demands that you hit a high C note in your incantations." That's not exactly a broad enough field of knowledge to warrant a skill bonus - it's just a hard thing to do, and one which the human wizard says "Huh?" at, since he's been casting it normally for years. How do you explain how the fastest way to become a wizard is to be a rogue? Easy. The actual techniques of wizardry aren't that difficult. What makes it take so long are all those boring exercises the teachers make you do. If they demand that I cast each spell a thousand times before I move on to the next one, we're talking years per spell in my spellbook. If I start as a rogue and get my buddy the adventurer to teach me the basics, I skip all of that. Breland has problems with corruption in the police force, Organized crime, Drugs,etc. Don't try to sugarcoat it. No, SHARN has these problems, and we know about them primarily because there's a whole SOURCEBOOK on Sharn. For all we know, despite the overall stability of elven civilization, Pylas Talaer is a cesspool of corruption. The Sharn Inquisitve articles painted the current commander of the Citadel as a pretty straight-up moral guy, and King Boranel seems to be a decent person. The fact that there's a pit of corruption in a country doesn't automatically condemn the whole place - and I'll bet my no money to your no money (what you were laying down on the revolution) that if there was a sourcebook about Aerenal (let alone, say, a sourcebook on Pylas Talaer or Shae Mordai) that you'd get that greater depth. Sarlax has hit it on the head. There's little crime in Aerenal (and it's described as "a rare occurance", not "no crime whatsoever") because regardless of what the magistrate does, any conviction is effectively a death sentence, from the viewpoint of the elf. Glancing at the ECS, I'll note that Breland is actually described as having an "attitude of acceptance and tolerance" towards outsiders (page 143) and "an emphasis on personal freedom". It talks about the people's "love for their king" and what a swell democracy it is. So again, the Sharn sourcebook highlights the nastiness found IN SHARN - that doesn't translate to dull misery across Breland, apparently. CR 18 is probably more powerfull than anybody in breland. So? The Eldeen Reaches has a CR 20 tree. The Daughters of Sora Kell are all around CR 18. And the Daughters could leave Droaam if they wanted, while the councilors are tied to Aerenal both physically and mentally. Doesn't change the fact that you have a god. Not really. You have a force of godlike power. You KNOW this force is earthly in its origins - because it was created by your ancestors. Mechanically, this may not make a difference, but philosophically it should. As the Sovereigns don't manifest, any tale or power can be attributed to them. I can believe that they watch over me wherever I go. I can believe that they want me to do strange thing X, or to kill intolerant culture Y. When the god is actually there, I DO know what they can't do. I know they can protect me if dragons attack, but that they can't actually strike at Argonnessen and prevent the dragons from attacking again. I know they didn't create the world, because 30,000 years ago they didn't exist. And I know that they don't want me to attack culture Y, because if they did, they'd come out and tell me. The existence of a force of godlike power - especially a force that I could join - is something that would and seemingly does have a huge impact on a culture; it's something that would be hard to escape as a member of the culture. This is something that, in my mind, adds depth to the Aereni, as opposed to just saying "They've got a living god! They're perfect and cool." But your karmic mileage may vary. ;) |
| Just another user06-01-05, 05:22 AM | This point is quite important. Everything about Aerenal is geared to achieving eternal life. Everyone spends centuries trying to perfectly replicate the actions of the very people who judge whether they're worthy of eternity. If you're ever convicted of a crime, you don't join the Court. That's it. In Aerenal, that's effectively a death sentence. For any crime. You have no future as an immortal and you'll never have your own family. Even a theft, if you're convicted, cuts you from your people forever. You're stuck with nothing but treading water until your permanent death - and that might be centuries away. Or, if you are really desperate you could move to Korvhaine and have sons with -ugh- humans. :yuck: |
| Gez06-01-05, 09:12 AM | Easily, Maybe: the elves lack concentration, and cannot focus on one thing for that long maybe elves have a form of amnesia? That's what I went for in my homebrew, since elves are supposedly chaotic, it fitted well. And that's why I'm always kinda annoyed by lawful elves with long traditions and single-minded devotion. Dwarves or gnomes with such traits, why not. Humans, it's possible, although not for the whole race. Halflings? Would be odd, but why not. Elves? That's just as if saying that all hill giants are camel jockeys, it seems a blatant impossibility. Oh well. I'll rationalize it with their trance. Elves, like everybody, are supposed to sleep. But they once discovered the method to trance, suppressing the need to sleep, and allowing them to retain their memories more efficiently. Without trancing at least once per month, an elf starts losing memories and focus. As a side bonus of this trance technique, they get to resist sleeps and enchantments. :confused: Elves are the masters of the manipulation of positive energy. Why would they have high infant mortality? -2 Con. It'll mean that statistically*, there will be elves born with a Con score of 1... It's doubtful they survive long. * 1 elven newborn on 216, if you use the "somewhat standard" NPC generating method of straight 3d6. That's 0.463% of newborn elves that will die if the ambiant temperature increases or diminishes by 1° in less than 2 hours, or if the mother/nurse/wandering baboon sighs nearby. Since I'd say that anyone with a Con score below 6 is likely to die while being infant, and since elves stay infants longer than humans, and since their Con score is so pathetic; yes, elves will have a high infant mortality rate, despite their supposed mastery of positive energy. |
| Mula06-01-05, 09:32 AM | That's what I went for in my homebrew, since elves are supposedly chaotic, it fitted well.Well, they aren't in Eberron.and since elves stay infants longer than humansI wanted to point out that elves mature as fast as humans, until the age of 15. |
| Siran Dunmorgan06-01-05, 10:28 AM | But the Human Civilization has been around for a MINIMUM of 20,000 years. Really? Can you substantiate that, with a reference of some kind? Even something vague would be helpful. I haven't seen any unequivocal evidence that human civilization on Eberron is more than four or, perhaps, five thousand years old. If you have access to an article or other text that indicates otherwise, I'd like to see it, as, I suspect would others here. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] As a helpful point of comparison, the best evidence we have for human civilization in the real world is only ten thousand years old. |
| ydirbut06-01-05, 01:26 PM | Description of Sarlona, pg. 220, ECS. |
| Edymnion06-01-05, 01:38 PM | Description of Sarlona, pg. 220, ECS.Yes, tens of thousands of years ago, sarlona was the cradle of the human race in Eberron. And tens of thousands of years ago, the Elves were a fully formed race that escaped from Giant slavery. They had tens of thousands of years MORE history as a race before they ever met the Giants. By the time the first human had appeared, the elves had already been born, grown into a powerful race, developed an entire culture, and then had that culture shattered as they were enslaved by an even greater culture of Giants. |
| The Dreaming Duck06-01-05, 01:48 PM | That's what I went for in my homebrew, since elves are supposedly chaotic, it fitted well. And that's why I'm always kinda annoyed by lawful elves with long traditions and single-minded devotion. Dwarves or gnomes with such traits, why not. Humans, it's possible, although not for the whole race. Halflings? Would be odd, but why not. Elves? That's just as if saying that all hill giants are camel jockeys, it seems a blatant impossibility. I'm not sure I follow, Gez. Why is it impossible? Because they are supposedly chaotic? Or because it seems impossible for a long-lived race to have long-standing traditions? If the former, Eberron is chucking any "everyone is alignment X" out the window anyway, so there is that. But in any case, I've never cared for "Elves are chaotic" myself BECAUSE of their long life. How do you live that long WITHOUT building up culture and tradition - unless, as suggested either you're incapable of long-term concentration or embrace the concept of chaos as the meaning of life? Tied to that, trance itself doesn't fit chaos to me. The elves not only don't sleep, they can't sleep. Instead, they meditate every night. Daily mediation seems more likely to spawn a lawful or at least neutral culture, because it's a structured act (as opposed to sleep which requires no conscious decision on the part of the sleeper, and eventually just happens whether you want it to or not). Though, of course, the nature of trance is a whole nother discussion on its own. |
| Siran Dunmorgan06-01-05, 01:56 PM | Description of Sarlona, pg. 220, ECS. "Tens of thousands of years ago, the vast continent of Sarlona was the cradle of human civilization." Cool! Thanks! I think I'll start a thread on interpreting this comment. More on-topic, I suspect that continuity is the primary issue: humans haven't had a single culturally identifiable civilization for all of those tens of thousands of years, i.e., civilizations on Sarlona have risen and fallen several times over the course of the millenia. The elves have not only had one civilization, they've had one coherent nation. —Siran Dunmorgan |
| Gez06-01-05, 02:52 PM | I'm not sure I follow, Gez. Why is it impossible? Because they are supposedly chaotic? Or because it seems impossible for a long-lived race to have long-standing traditions? If the former, Eberron is chucking any "everyone is alignment X" out the window anyway, so there is that. But in any case, I've never cared for "Elves are chaotic" myself BECAUSE of their long life. How do you live that long WITHOUT building up culture and tradition - unless, as suggested either you're incapable of long-term concentration or embrace the concept of chaos as the meaning of life? Tied to that, trance itself doesn't fit chaos to me. The elves not only don't sleep, they can't sleep. Instead, they meditate every night. Daily mediation seems more likely to spawn a lawful or at least neutral culture, because it's a structured act (as opposed to sleep which requires no conscious decision on the part of the sleeper, and eventually just happens whether you want it to or not). Though, of course, the nature of trance is a whole nother discussion on its own. Because I think it is impossible to have a race that is compatible with all of these statements: Has no memory troubles or attention deficit disorder. Is focused to the point of single-mindedness. Matures as fast as humans do, but live much longer, and are given one whole century longer than humans to become adults. Has no racial bonus to Crafts, Knowledges, or in fact any non-sensory skill. (Said bonus to sensory skills being furthermore explained by naturally keen senses rather than by training to develop them.) Is LA +0. What do the elves learn during these nearly 100 years? How to be proficient with bows and blades? But that doesn't take this long to learn to use these weapons! Especially for so weak a result, as they don't have any sort of bonus to attack with, as real training would. Do they learn how to cast spells, like all gnomes did (pre-revision, now it's natural spell-like abilities instead) ? No. Do they learn lots and lots of trivia and lore (as in, bardic knowledge as a racial ability) ? No. Do they get one big massive bonus to one skill that represent their calling ? No. To make sense of the elves, you have to remove some of the premises above, otherwise you end up with a walking contradiction. That's why I took advantage of their "chaoticness" in my homebrew... But Eberron didn't, and I'm not convinced by Eberron's own take on elves. (I do like the takes on the other races, both old and new. It's just the elves (including drow) that I find unconvincing and conceptually flawed as is.) |
| ardisian06-01-05, 03:16 PM | What did you learn during your childhood? Did you focus all of your efforts towards a specific craft and master it. Elves may physically mature by age 25 or so but they do not mentally or emotionsally mature by then. They likely drift from subject to subject with no pressure to really focus on any one thing. I have always taken the view that elven young are chaotic by nature (as are most children and teenagers :D ) and spend most of thier childhood in having fun and avoiding work. When an elf matures to adulthood they put away their childish ways and learn to focus on their chosen craft. I tend to view adult elves with a more lawful or at least neutral tendency. The adults would likely indulge their children and overlook their minor acts of disobediance as they are just 'children' but they would expect and adult to act like one. Elves do not activly focus on anything during their childhood and so get no particular bonuses. As an adult the elf may end up with very high levels (generally in NPC classes) by the time they die but they would not gain any of this as a child. [QUOTE=Gez]Because I think it is impossible to have a race that is compatible with all of these statements: Has no memory troubles or attention deficit disorder. Is focused to the point of single-mindedness. Matures as fast as humans do, but live much longer, and are given one whole century longer than humans to become adults. Has no racial bonus to Crafts, Knowledges, or in fact any non-sensory skill. (Said bonus to sensory skills being furthermore explained by naturally keen senses rather than by training to develop them.) Is LA +0. QUOTE] |
| The Dreaming Duck06-01-05, 03:36 PM | What do the elves learn during these nearly 100 years? How to be proficient with bows and blades? But that doesn't take this long to learn to use these weapons! Especially for so weak a result, as they don't have any sort of bonus to attack with, as real training would. Which is why I think the idea of tradition is the only thing that DOES work. A chaotic elf SHOULD learn dozens of useful skills in that first century; he'd drift from trade to trade, trying new things, picking up dozens of trades. Now, to begin with, remember that an "adult elf" is not a blank slate. He possesses the same skills as any first level character. So he may have craft skills, profession skills, spellcasting ability, whatever. THe question is how long it took him to learn these skills, and why. My concept, as I've said before, is that it's all about style. I've done some fencing and martial arts. At this point I couldn't go through a kata to save my life. But I remember enough of the basic concepts that I would be better off in a fight than I was before I studied these arts. I've porbably forgotten 90% of what I've learned in college, but I remember the most important lessons. I think the elves epitomize this. There is the knowledge you need to perform a task - and there is the unnecessary knowledge that doesn't actually provide any useful benefit, that may slip away through information overload, but that is part of the learning process. So we're training in the use of the sword. You're a human. I'm an elf. I'm trained in 3,000 different stances: this is the stance Kel Torae took when he faced the King of Stone. This is the stance used to acknowledge a superior foe of your line. This is the stance used to acknowledge an inferior foe of your line. In fact, we've got a whole combination of stances for EVERY elven line - here's the inferior/superior stance for a Jhalian/Gorlaen match-up. And that's just for the sword. As a fighter, I learn these for every weapon, and they're all different, including the accents you add based on the weapon your opponent is using. Meanwhile, you, the human, learn to kill people. A year later, we're adventuring, and we run into a gorgon. The fact that I know a thousand stances reflecting elven dueling history has no concrete effect on this situation whatsoever. You could say "Yeah, but shouldn't that give you a Knowledge: History bonus?" To which I say "Should it?" We're adventuring in Khorvaire. We find a Dhakaani ruin and the DM says "Make a Knowledge: History check" - why should my knowledge of elven sword tradition have any effect on this whatsoever? Yes, I have a vast store of knowledge that you, the human, do not - but there's no practical use to that knowledge. It's entirely cultural. If I encounter another elf of my line, I know the stance to take. So does he. It still has no game effect, it's just standard for our culture. I see the same thing for spellcasters. Elven traditions may be FAR more complicated than human traditions, even if they accomplish exactly the same thing - BECAUSE the elves are all about tradition. They aren't just trying to accomplish the task - they are trying to respect their history in the process. As a side note, I'll also note that the Trance vs Sleep thing means that they don't dream, which again implies more of a lawful or neutral culture to me. Dreams are a well of creativity and inspiration, injecting chaos into our lives. If I never have that chance for inspiration, for a reflection on my life or past that I would have never have consciously thought of - it seems to me that's going to create a more solid and well, dull civilization. On one level, you could argue that it's tradition that keeps them from going mad; that like the kalashtar they need to enforce stability through mental discipline to account for the lack of release in dreams. |
| Sarlax06-01-05, 05:29 PM | I haven't seen any unequivocal evidence that human civilization on Eberron is more than four or, perhaps, five thousand years old. The Sarlona references have already been made. They may have been stretched, though. Whoever wrote it, we don't know what they meant by "civilization." Strong states with literate people? Or just primitive chiefdoms? Even if human states existed 20 KYA, we don't know if they existed continuously. Maybe they've been rising and falling periodically over the millenia. |
| The Dreaming Duck06-01-05, 05:51 PM | The Sarlona references have already been made. They may have been stretched, though. Whoever wrote it, we don't know what they meant by "civilization." Strong states with literate people? Or just primitive chiefdoms? Indeed. "Cradle of human civilization" just means that's where humanity physically evolved. They had a significant presence 20,000 years ago - but that could have been a stone age culture for all we know. One last point on my "Elves learn 3,000 sword stances" theory: this also explains why elf and human PCs advance at the same rate. Once he's in the field, he's learning just the basics he needs to improve: the exact same skills as the human. So he's not slowed down by the millenia of elven tradition he'd normally be learning. As for the question about why Khorvaire elves haven't gone further, it's an interesting one. Two thoughts come to mind. First, do they have a clear culture of their own? Or are they simply spread among humans, thus adopting human culture? Because if you DIDN'T devote yourself fully to one task, I don't see age automatically equalling skill. Like I said, I've forgotten a great deal of what I learned at college. If you aren't using your skills, they'll atrophy; an elf who spends a decade as a baker, a decade as a carpenter, a decade as a scholar, etc, etc should have basic skills in all of those - but a few centuries down the line, he'll probably be best at whatever he's been doing for the past few decades. So the elf cook in Sharn is a master because she does nothing but cook, and has done nothing but cook for centuries; if she tried to be a cook, an actress, and a blacksmith all at once, it might be more difficult. Of course, D&D has no system for skills atrophying through disuse, so this doesn't work that well there. But I can see the argument that an Aereni craftsman would end up as an 18th-level commoner after 300 years, while a Khorvaire elf would be a 9th-level expert: the Aereni does only one or two things, but does them amazingly, while the Khoravaire elf has impressive skills in a broader range of fields, but hasn't devoted himself so singlemindedly to one task. One other clarification: the reason I don't see the elf getting a bonus is because he takes longer to learn the basic skills, because of this expanded curriculum. So, it takes a human 20 years to get to rank 5 in a Profession. It takes an elf 100 years to get to rank 5. By my theory, in that hundred years, the elf has learned a host of fundamentally useless trivial details: the elven farmer knows the name of the first 1,000 farmers of Aerenal; he knows the twelve different stances for wielding a scythe, depending on what you're harvesting and what season it is; he knows a thousand traditional harvesting songs. These are all part of the apprentice process for an elven farmer, and he's not allowed to progress to the next rank until he's perfected these. But purely from a game perspective: knowing the myth of the creation of wheat or a thousand different songs doesn't actually make him a better farmer - it just means he's honoring the traditions of his culture and his ancestors, and thus is in the running for the Undying Court. (Likewise, the odds of the history of wheat playing a role in a campaign seem low enough that I don't see the need for the character to have Knowledge: wheat.) |
| Euangelion06-01-05, 08:06 PM | Ya know, Dreaming Duck, that makes a lot of sense. :bow: I can live with that explanation. But that leaves me with a darker, more sinister thought. You mean to say that the D&D 3.5 system isn't perfect? :eek: |
| ydirbut06-01-05, 09:09 PM | Right maybe the author didn't actually mean "civilization" when he said that :rolleyes: . |
| Slayen06-01-05, 09:29 PM | Right maybe the author didn't actually mean "civilization" when he said that :rolleyes: . And here is the author's thoughts on Sarlona: The majority of human history was more primitive, and much of those "tens of thousands" would have been stone age societies; beyond that, Sarlona certainly had a long period of warring states and empires rising only to quickly fall again. And even when humans came to Khorvaire, they didn't possess all of the arcane techniques (or dragonmarks) that they do today. From this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=439647) |
| ydirbut06-01-05, 09:31 PM | Teach me to open my damn mouth :P |
| Flippo06-02-05, 04:45 AM | I really like The Dreaming Duck's explanation. It also makes for some great fluff to use during my campaign, especially to describe a tenuous diplomatic situation. Maybe the elves solve a lot of diplomatic sress by means of a succession of poses, which to human eyes look like some sort of intricate dance. But really, I think you shouldn't keep staring at the bonuses given in the races' description. When I am the DM, I tend to give bonuses on all kinds of skill checks. When the Aereni elf negotiates with other Aereni, I almost instinctively give him a bonus, not a very large one, but still, whereas when the one to negotiate with the elves is a human (or even a Khorvaire elf), I don't give bonuses at all. This could indeed represent the fact that humans don't know the proper etiquette, so they accidentally speak to the ambassador, while using the stance an elf would use to adress a child, whereas the elf would not make that mistake. The ambassador, of course, knows that you can't expect humans (or any non-Aereni) to behave in the proper way, but if he meets someone who does, he will certainly be more favourably inclined. The reverse could also be true. Elves don't get bonuses vs humans, because, even if the elf used the proper stances, the human would not see their meaning. The human would just think: "get to the point, already" |
| Gez06-02-05, 07:21 AM | Which is why I think the idea of tradition is the only thing that DOES work. A chaotic elf SHOULD learn dozens of useful skills in that first century; he'd drift from trade to trade, trying new things, picking up dozens of trades. But they're gradually forgotten. Now, to begin with, remember that an "adult elf" is not a blank slate. Yes it is. An elf is adult at 110 years. He then needs 4d6, 6d6, or 10d6 additional years (so between 4 and 60 years) to become a first level character. The human, on the other hand, is adult at age 15, and only needs 1d4, 1d6, or 2d6 years to become a first-level character (between one and twelve years). He possesses the same skills as any first level character. So he may have craft skills, profession skills, spellcasting ability, whatever. THe question is how long it took him to learn these skills, and why. Yes, and he won't be better at any of these than, say, a first level human, halfling, gnome, dwarf, etc. A goblin craftsman may very well be as good as your elven craftsman, making the "items a mere human can't even dream of making" bit a bit ludicrous. My concept, as I've said before, is that it's all about style. I've done some fencing and martial arts. At this point I couldn't go through a kata to save my life. But I remember enough of the basic concepts that I would be better off in a fight than I was before I studied these arts. I've porbably forgotten 90% of what I've learned in college, but I remember the most important lessons. I think the elves epitomize this. Me too, especially the memory trouble part. :) There is the knowledge you need to perform a task - and there is the unnecessary knowledge that doesn't actually provide any useful benefit, that may slip away through information overload, but that is part of the learning process. So we're training in the use of the sword. You're a human. I'm an elf. I'm trained in 3,000 different stances: this is the stance Kel Torae took when he faced the King of Stone. This is the stance used to acknowledge a superior foe of your line. This is the stance used to acknowledge an inferior foe of your line. In fact, we've got a whole combination of stances for EVERY elven line - here's the inferior/superior stance for a Jhalian/Gorlaen match-up. And that's just for the sword. As a fighter, I learn these for every weapon, and they're all different, including the accents you add based on the weapon your opponent is using. Cool. That's what gnomes and dwarves do, too, and this result in a +4 dodge bonus to AC against giant and a +1 racial bonus on attacks against goblinoids and orcs or kobolds. But the elves do not have a +1 racial bonus on attacks against elves, or a +4 dodge bonus to AC against elves. Of course, you could say the bonus to attack and AC are of equal value, so it's a wash. I'll grant you that, even though the example of dwarves and gnomes would tend to go the other way. You could say "Yeah, but shouldn't that give you a Knowledge: History bonus?" To which I say "Should it?" We're adventuring in Khorvaire. We find a Dhakaani ruin and the DM says "Make a Knowledge: History check" - why should my knowledge of elven sword tradition have any effect on this whatsoever? Yes, I have a vast store of knowledge that you, the human, do not - but there's no practical use to that knowledge. It's entirely cultural. If I encounter another elf of my line, I know the stance to take. So does he. It still has no game effect, it's just standard for our culture. Then, if those traditions and huge fonts of trivia are so important in elven life, shouldn't other races suffer from a special penalty on Diplomacy checks made with regards to elves? Because they don't know the hundreds of special painstaking tidbits of lore that elves have to use everytime? As a side note, I'll also note that the Trance vs Sleep thing means that they don't dream, which again implies more of a lawful or neutral culture to me. Dreams are a well of creativity and inspiration, injecting chaos into our lives. If I never have that chance for inspiration, for a reflection on my life or past that I would have never have consciously thought of - it seems to me that's going to create a more solid and well, dull civilization. On one level, you could argue that it's tradition that keeps them from going mad; that like the kalashtar they need to enforce stability through mental discipline to account for the lack of release in dreams. Yeah, D&D elves don't make much sense if trance is an innate ability rather than a learned ability. |
| The White Sorcerer06-02-05, 08:36 AM | Right maybe the author didn't actually mean "civilization" when he said that :rolleyes: . Meh. As far as I'm concerned, civilization means, at the very least, Irrigation, Mining, and Roads. |
| Gez06-02-05, 08:49 AM | Meh. As far as I'm concerned, civilaztion means, at the very least, Irrigation, Mining, and Roads. I usually got Ceremonial Burying or Pottery (and some lucky times both!) as well. :) |
| The Dreaming Duck06-02-05, 10:45 AM | Yes it is. An elf is adult at 110 years. He then needs 4d6, 6d6, or 10d6 additional years (so between 4 and 60 years) to become a first level character. The human, on the other hand, is adult at age 15, and only needs 1d4, 1d6, or 2d6 years to become a first-level character (between one and twelve years). You're entitled to your opinion, and if you cling to it, I understand why you can't stand elves. But can you make me an "adult character" of any race? If it has no class, what is its hit dice? Even if you say "An adult with no other class levels would be a commoner", a commoner possesses skill ranks, representing some training. An "Adult" does not have no hit points, no feats, and no skill points: the adult age is a base figure that is modified by the subsequent ages for the class that you choose. Thus, I maintain that you may have undergone apprenticeship before that adult age. D&D 3.0 included the Apprentice rules for 0-level characters; that could be a reasonable compromise in this case, though 0-level characters might be TOO powerful. Our society today places less of a basis on early skills that a fantasy society would, because it's safer and we can afford to. But do you really think you didn't develop anything that could be considered a skill before you were 15? There's no right or wrong here, Gez. You don't like elves. I suggest you just don't use them, then. *I* am going to try to find a way to have them make sense in my mind as they are presented in the book without making them idiots, and personally, I have. I don't expect to convince you that you are wrong. That's not my goal. But I am trying to present an alternative for people who WANT to use elves but have trouble with the age. Yes, and he won't be better at any of these than, say, a first level human, halfling, gnome, dwarf, etc. A goblin craftsman may very well be as good as your elven craftsman, making the "items a mere human can't even dream of making" bit a bit ludicrous. Of course it is. Because the craftsman who makes "items a mere human can't even dream of" isn't first level. He's a 300-year old master craftsman with 18 levels of commoner - just like the cook we've seen in Sharn. I see no reason to assume that an elf can possess superior skills to a human within a human lifetime - less, obsviously, since an "adult elf" has already outlived any human. I see nothing in this Dragonshard implying that this is the case. But the elf can spend another three human lifetimes working on that craft - and this is EXACTLY what the article says, that the elves devote their entire lives to perfecting one skill. And bear in mind that the 300-year elf, as cool as he may be, also has a -6 to all physical stats: he may be incredible at what he does, but you could also kill him by sneezing on him. A first level commoner is a first level commoner, wherever they are. The point is that Aerenal has a lot more high-level commoners than Breland. However, I'd venture the guess that they have FEWER high-level experts - because elves tend to focus on a single profession/craft/whatever. This comes back to their limitations. Elves may produce items "humans can't dream of" - but humans are more versatile. Again, it's the 18th-level commoner vs the 9th-level expert. The commoner has unparalleled skill in one thing - but the human expert is equally effective in a half-dozen different crafts. On that "dream of" line, I also think you're really making too big a deal of it - considering that, in context, it's immediately followed by "But they make nothing new." Right, they make the best swords in the world. Someone has to. But they'll never make a lightsaber - and a human might. If a human and an elf try to make the same thing - and it's something that's part of elven tradition - the 300-year-old elf master craftsman wins. But the human may come up with something entirely different, which the ELF could never dream of (especially since elves don't dream). Cool. That's what gnomes and dwarves do, too, and this result in a +4 dodge bonus to AC against giant and a +1 racial bonus on attacks against goblinoids and orcs or kobolds. No, it's not remotely what gnomes and dwarves do too. Gnomes and dwarves train in effective combat techniques that allow them to more efficiently fight a racial foe. If you think that I was saying that the "stances" were supposed to make you BETTER at fighting a particular elf, you completely missed the point. My point is that it's a social language, like a tea ritual. The stance I use when fighting you shows a) my mastery of tradition, b) my acknowledgment of your lineage, and c) my personal belief as to whether you are my inferior, equal, or superior. That's it. I shouldn't get a +1 ANYTHING, because it's not ABOUT beating you - when if actually comes down to fighting, we've been trained exactly the same way. This is why I said that when we fight the gorgon, it would make no difference. Because the training HAS NO PRACTICAL USE. Its relevance is purely social. The point is that elven society has vastly greater amounts of etiquette and trivial schooling that are consider to be vital for anyone who wants to be a member of the Undying Court and to honor the ancestors - but has absolutely no use in game terms. Like I said, a farmer learning twelve stances for handling a scythe based on the grain he's harvesting: these aren't martial stances. They don't actually give him a bonus to farming. It's just tradition - and when he sees a human farmer, he thinks "what a clod." Then, if those traditions and huge fonts of trivia are so important in elven life, shouldn't other races suffer from a special penalty on Diplomacy checks made with regards to elves? If you go this route, you should make the same argument for EVERY race and culture. Humans may not spend a century learning etiquette, but each culture has its own traditions that make outsiders seem like clods. My answer is this: Foreigners in ANY culture don't receive a Diplomacy penalty because they aren't expected to know the rituals. If a foreigner somehow DOES know the rituals (the character speaks elven, makes a big Knowledge: local roll, I don't know) then they should get a BONUS to Diplomacy. Alternatively, every foreigner should take a penalty in any foreign court unless they can match local customs, in which case things even out. Yeah, D&D elves don't make much sense if trance is an innate ability rather than a learned ability. Why would you think it was a learned ability as opposed to innate? The PHB says "Elves do not sleep as members of common other races do" - not "they can choose not to sleep" or "learn techniques to rest more efficiently." They are immune to sleep, just like a warforged; you can't put them to sleep because they DON'T sleep. It's a weird racial trait. The question is, what happens if they don't "meditate"? Anyhow, like I said, I'm not really writing this for you. I understand that you and ydirbut dislike elves and that nothing I say will change that. And personally, I think the idea of "chaos elves" is interesting in its own way; like I said before, I'd LIKE to see what ydirbut comes up with that WOULD make him happy. But just like I won't convince you that you're wrong, you're not going to convince me that I'm wrong. ;) |
| Gez06-02-05, 11:16 AM | Why would you think it was a learned ability as opposed to innate? The PHB says "Elves do not sleep as members of common other races do" - not "they can choose not to sleep" or "learn techniques to rest more efficiently." It doesn't either claim it's innate, so you can read it the way you want. I'll highlight the following sentence, though: While meditating, an elf dreams, though these dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. Again, this can be read any way. It doesn't say the extent of these mental exercises (whether the whole trance is one or whether they're just a part of the trance). It doesn't even say why they bother doing the exercise in the first place. Presumably, it's important, otherwise they wouldn't. They are immune to sleep, just like a warforged; you can't put them to sleep because they DON'T sleep. False. They are immune to magic sleep effects, they even go as far as italizing sleep as they do with spells and magic items. You can put an elf to sleep by subduing him or with a sleep poison. It's a weird racial trait. If it was, it would be in the racial trait section. It isn't. :) The question is, what happens if they don't "meditate"? The rules don't say anything (though I haven't read Races of the Wild, so maybe it's addressed there). One can assume they'll suffer the same as what would suffer any other creature deprived of sleep. I chose to reconcile the annoying and self-contradicting aspects of elves a certain way. Eberron took a different way, which is only normal (otherwise, I'd rant about orbital mind-reading stations or something ;)), but what Keith and co. choose doesn't convince me. So here I am, saying I'm not convinced by Eberronian elves, and find them illogical. Not that my homebrew's solution was the only one valid, there are others. Eberron's solution just doesn't strike me as being one of those. |
| Korhal_IV06-02-05, 02:10 PM | The Dreaming Duck has the best points, IMO. I think I pretty much agree with everything he's said. :) |
| Siran Dunmorgan06-02-05, 02:15 PM | There's a difference between "asleep" and "knocked out". You can render a warforged or thri-kreen unconscious, too—but that doesn't mean it's asleep. "Sleep Poisons" knock people out: if you've ever had an operation where they used a comprehensive anaesthetic, you'll remember the difference between that and being asleep. Elves don't sleep. They only sort-of dream. They are immune—for example—to the effects of the nightmare and dream, explicitly: both spells contain the text "Creatures who don't sleep (such as elves, but not half-elves) or dream are immune to this spell." There's a whole interesting world to be explored there, in the relationship of the Undying Court, the elves as a whole, and the Quori: since the elves don't dream, they aren't interesting to the Quori as a food source, and the Quori might not pose much of a threat to the elves. Aerenal and Dal Quor could at least in theory, come to a kind of peaceful coexistence. I suppose the elves probably remember the Quori rôle in the downfall of the giants—but since the Quori intervention made the whole rebellion of the elves possible in the first place, there might not be much bad blood there at all. —Siran Dunmorgan |
| EscherEnigma06-02-05, 10:23 PM | I suppose the elves probably remember the Quori rôle in the downfall of the giants—but since the Quori intervention made the whole rebellion of the elves possible in the first place, there might not be much bad blood there at all.—Siran Dunmorgan Yeah, but you would also think that they would be grateful to the Dragons for toasting the giants. |
| Ravenscroft06-03-05, 03:04 AM | A lot to assimilate from 110 posts :help: From Races of the Wild (page 13) : Table 6-4 of the PHB suggests that elves dont reach their full physical growth until an age of 110 , at a minimum.That's not entirely accurate.The random starting age of elves is simply the age at which many elf adventurers feel ready to leave their forests and roam the world outside for a time.More than a few elves have commenced their adventuring careers at much younger ages. Humans attain full adult growth by age 20 , Elves at age 25. The distinction here is Adventurers , PC class characters gain no benefit from hanging around for 85 years doing nothing so they start at age 25 or close to that depending on Class choice. The other elves are pursuing NPC class stuff and dont adventure. You could give someone an NPC class who decides to become an Adventurer (the various Aristocrat/Whatever in the ECS and Sharn). One reason for an Aereni elf to adventure would be if he/she were accused of a crime.Guilty or Innocent you will want to redeem your Name and doing some notable deed is a likely choice. Thoth is the name given by the Greeks to the Egyptian god Djeheuty. Thoth was the god of wisdom, inventor of writing, patron of scribes and the divine mediator. He is most often represented as a man with the head of an ibis, holding a scribal palette and reed pen. He could also be shown completely as an ibis or a baboon. Thoth was also present at the judgement of the dead. He would question the deceased before recording the result of the weighing of the deceased's heart. If the result was favorable Thoth would declare the deceased as a righteous individual who was worthy of a blessed afterlife. I suspect something along these lines may be why we have Baboon in Aerenal. I doubt its because elves Dont need pants for a Victory Dance! :dancin: One of the hardest things to do in RPGs is the mindset of non-human/humanoid races. Most of the posts come across as how the Aerenal Society would affect you as a human. Not how the Aereni see themselves or if they would feel the same way as a human living in such a setting. For practical purposes in a game , does it really make any difference how long an elf lives compared to other races? Do the players of elf characters continue to game while their aged human companions retire? Maybe they attach themselves to human families and adventure with the kids and grandkids before they retire. :) |
| Hellcow06-05-05, 02:39 AM | So here I am, saying I'm not convinced by Eberronian elves, and find them illogical. Not that my homebrew's solution was the only one valid, there are others. Eberron's solution just doesn't strike me as being one of those. I'm sorry to hear that, Gez. But, sadly, I can't expect to make everyone happy all the time. In my opinion, the Aereni are about the exploration of age, tradition, and the cultural mindset that could develop around a society where immortal exists, and where a single individual might live almost a millenia even without it. I've never even considered the idea that elves might have learning disabilities or long-term memory problems, because these are things that should have significant game impacts, and they don't. Likewise, the idea that humans are more intelligent than every other species in existence because of their skill points doesn't work for me: if they were more intelligent, they'd be more intelligent (which is to say, +2 Intelligence); to me, more skill points and feats reflects their adaptable and versatile nature, not some inherent genius. Elves may have more crystalized ways of thinking; that doesn't make them stupid. The point about maximum ranks being determined by level makes sense to me: humans may have MORE skills, but they can't spend that extra skill point to give them more ranks than an elf (or dwarf, or halfling) could get in any one skill. Generally, I'm in agreement with the Dreaming Duck: I've always considered the PHB text to mean that elves simply do not sleep; this is something I addressed in the Oneiromancy section of Occult Lore. Elves may do something akin to dreaming, but they cannot dream - at least, the dream and nightmare spells specify that they can't target elves, which seems to me to be a strong indicator that they aren't connected to the same source. Likewises, dream says "creatures who don't sleep (such as elves...)" not "creatures who can choose not to sleep or are not affected by magical sleep effects." So you can certainly interpret it as trained if you wish - but it seems inherent to me. The DD's explanation of adult age is exactly the sort of thing I see. The elves, Aereni in particular, are heavily burdened by tradition. I've taken a few writing classes and learned much of what I know about writing from reading. An Aereni writer would need to spend decades on Grammar and reading the ancient elven poets before he would be considered a writer - and because that's how the society is constructed, this would tie into his own self-image and his ability to be taken seriously as a writer. If he's 30 years old, he's going to be dismissed out of hand, because he's only 30! Without spending 10 years reading Faelor he knows nothing about similes! But in reality, 1 year on grammar, 10 years on grammar, 20 years on grammar; that's not going to give him an actual bonus on his Profession (writer) skill. It's simply going to mean that both he and the people around him BELIEVE that he's qualified to be a writer. Far too much is being made of that "bows a human can only dream of" sentence. The idea that Aerenal has a lot of 18th-level commoners is really what I had in mind - both in that they can perform feats that are amazing but also that they usually only master one or two skills, as opposed to the versatile humans. Looking to the councilors of Sharn you see this. I believe, if you check the AKB FAQ, I once did stat blocks for Maza Thadian and Javan Tomallan, and despite being less than half her level, Javan is actually a better diplomat, because he's an expert and far more versatile - but Maza is simply amazing at what she does best, which is cook. So there are more high-level characters in Aerenal than Breland, but they are mostly commoners, and the high-level ones are all quite old. If a human bowyer DOES get 21 ranks in Craft, he could match an elven craftsmen. It's simply the case that there's VERY few human craftsmen of that level. In any case, the sentence was a sweeping generalization intended to be taken as poetic license, not as a concrete ruling - "No human can ever match an elf." And certainly, the idea that humans can and will continue to innovate and eventually outmatch the Aereni (if they don't change) is a what I see as the situation. Adherence to tradition has made the Aereni masters of their traditional crafts, but it is also a weight around their neck. I see the Aereni, as a culture, as being more lawful neutral than good. The Deathsguard wants to eliminate the taint of Mabar, but "good and holy" isn't how I'd describe the Aereni. The lack of crime is supposed to be a response to both a fairly draconian system of justice and many millenia of tradition. The description of "security vs freedom" is pretty much how I see it. Aerenal is peaceful and stable - but in part that's because if the Boromars set up shop in Aerenal, the Undying Court would crush them. And that should be as frightening as it is cheerful. With that said, I do think there are many cabals and levels of intrigue within Aerenal, especially Pylas Talaer - but that's a subject for the future. You may not get mugged or robbed by Aereni, but that doesn't mean it's a bright sunny place where nothing bad ever happens to anyone, and if that's the impression that comes across, well, I'll try to make that more clear in the future. I'm with Dreaming Duck on the idea of Aereni/Tairnadal military training. I'm not sure about the idea of different traditions dealing with the different lines, but I'm certainly not opposed to the idea - and the concept that the elves have vast amounts of what are functionally cosmetic traditions with great social or historical significance is exactly what I have in mind. The first level Tairnadal fighter - well, first off, most Tairnadal wouldn't even be considered full-fledged adults AT first level, because they expect you to be around 4th-level when you join a warband in the foreign lands - but he'd know all sorts of traditions about his ancestor, his ancestor's sword, the battles he fought, etc - but this certainly is far too specific to qualify for an overall History bonus. (and to stave off the question, I'll point out that the Valenar article does address the idea that a 1st-level Valenar PC has probably broken with tradition and cut off his training early, which is why he's only 1st level). By comparison, I certainly see the dwarf/gnome racial bonuses as representing military training for purposes of gaining concrete benefits - as opposed to symbolic training with social significance. Anyhow, I could ramble about this forever, and at this point I'm just repeating what others have said and spending time I could be devoting to the AKB thread. :) In any case, I am sorry to hear that it doesn't satisfy you, Gez, as I have certainly come to respect your opinions from your other posts on the boards. But this dragonshard - and the next one - are a continuation of the idea I wanted to explore with the Aereni, which is one of the impact of longevity, immortality, and the weight of the past. A more "live for the moment" elf is an intriguing idea - but it's not one I chose to explore in Eberron, and obviously at this stage of things I'm not about to suddenly say "Actually, despite what we said in the ECS, the Aereni are carefree and chaotic!" As a random note, following the Races of the Wild comment about elven age, I could see allowing Khorvaire elves to begin at a younger age; if I write a Dragonshard about Khorvaire elves, I'll probably add it in there. |
| Gez06-05-05, 01:51 PM | I'm sorry to hear that, Gez. But, sadly, I can't expect to make everyone happy all the time. In my opinion, the Aereni are about the exploration of age, tradition, and the cultural mindset that could develop around a society where immortal exists, and where a single individual might live almost a millenia even without it. I've never even considered the idea that elves might have learning disabilities or long-term memory problems, because these are things that should have significant game impacts, and they don't. IMO, they have, they make a 120-year old elf a first level character. :) Likewise, the idea that humans are more intelligent than every other species in existence because of their skill points doesn't work for me: if they were more intelligent, they'd be more intelligent (which is to say, +2 Intelligence); to me, more skill points and feats reflects their adaptable and versatile nature, not some inherent genius. This, and a few other gripes you address below, weren't my ideas/opinions but those of Ydirbut. But this dragonshard - and the next one - are a continuation of the idea I wanted to explore with the Aereni, which is one of the impact of longevity, immortality, and the weight of the past. A more "live for the moment" elf is an intriguing idea - but it's not one I chose to explore in Eberron, and obviously at this stage of things I'm not about to suddenly say "Actually, despite what we said in the ECS, the Aereni are carefree and chaotic!" True. But I think that's the reason Eberron's elves are a bit at odd with me. In my opinion, the long-lived, tradition-burdened, past-obsessed race niche was already filled by the lawful, clanic dwarves. Elves looked more like eternal adolescents to me, carefree and carpe diem. That said, Eberron does have a modus operandi of switching roles around (like orcs with an old druidic tradition protecting the world from arcane menaces, and invading elves who wage wars for combat's sake). |
| Hellcow06-05-05, 04:17 PM | IMO, they have, they make a 120-year old elf a first level character. :) *shrug* To me, I see it as cultural. Personally, I think it's more interesting to consider what could make a society make you wait a century before being fully accepted and why, as opposed to saying that the character simply can't function until that amount of time has passed - and it sounds like Races of the Wild takes this approach, even though I assume it does follow a more chaotic path to match the PHB. But I respect your opinion. In my opinion, the long-lived, tradition-burdened, past-obsessed race niche was already filled by the lawful, clanic dwarves. Elves looked more like eternal adolescents to me, carefree and carpe diem. Actually, this is the most compelling argument for chaotic elves I've heard in this thread, and I find it far more interesting than the "elves are physiologically incapable of learning" approach. And, of course, this IS the sort of behavior you find among the Greensingers, which are the Eldeen sect with the highest concentration of elves - adopting more of the attitude of the chaotic fey. Being long-lived and having a gift for magic gives the elves a fey flavor, but among other things, if I was going this route I'd personally make their favored class sorcerer or bard. Wizardry is a science that requires study and devotion, and I feel is more suited to a lawful culture than a chaotic one - whereas if elves had a natural gift for sorcery, they'd be more inherently magical creatures. Of course, favored class doesn't mean much; Greensinger elves are more likely to be bards than wizards, favored class be :censored::censored::censored:. But as I've said before, I think that favored class suggests a common aptitude that permeates the culture - that while Valenar may have more levels in ranger or scout than wizard, wizardry is such a part of their culture that it's easy to pick up a level. With a chaotic culture, I wouldn't see wizardry as being integrated at that level. (And as a note, no, this does not mean I'd give Greensinger elves a favored class of bard - elves is elves is elves.) Needless to say, in Eberron the elves and dwarves are very different, with elves having immortality, an unbroken history stretching back beyond any civilization on Khorvaire, and being isolationist by nature, as opposed to the dwarves being a bustling mercantile force actively trying to spread its influence and only just begining to recover its ancient history. So if I was to start up a campaign in the core world, I could certainly see going that route, and it does fit the Greensingers; but obviously the role of Aerenal is already clearly established as is. |
| drasticale06-05-05, 05:32 PM | In a world where you knew you were going to outlive almost four generations of that human baby in front of you, you wouldn't be in a hurry. The human baby, now a young man, has already devoted every day of his life that he could lift a sword practicing with it. The Elf seeing the child clumsily swing the sword to and fro laughs, and spends a half hour with his selected weapons today, and puts them away; in favor of exploring the forest. He'll practice again next week. The human man, and the Elf fight back-to-back thwarting the advances of kobolds. The human, with the culmination of his rigorous training over the past 20 years slays 20 kobolds on that day. The Elf matches him, though he has practiced with the sword for almost 100 years more. The Elf laughs because he knows he has 300 more years in which his skill will be slowly honed, while the human will reach his pinnacle and die out. The Elf knows he will be the strongest swordsman in the land, without having to devote every second of every day to the perfection of the craft, simply because he doesn't have the burden of mortality. --- This is why I think an age 20 human, and an age 120 Elf are equals. It's the chaotic mindset that lends itself to the slow progression of skills. Humans however, even if chaotic, are faced with the lingering shadow of their mortality every time they stare the Elf that was their grandfather's close friend in the face. Humans hold the spotlight on their craft for seconds at a time in the eyes of Elves; and strive for lasting immortality through innovation. And even lawful Elves would still see the long periods of their life as excuse to leave strenous daily training to the side <-2 constitution> Just my two galifar. |
| Ravenscroft06-05-05, 10:23 PM | It was pointed out to me on another thread , that sometimes you have to step back from the Rules (or the RAW) and look at the actual story you are trying to tell. Why would an elf perceive time in the same way as a human? Most of us have our days planned for us when we are babies and children. Does an elven mother say "Oh , i have years to raise this baby , wont matter if i take my time and leave it alone for a few days , while i be all wafty and ethereal cause im supposed to be roleplayed like some spaced out sixties hippie" Unless of course you decide this is why elves have communal child-rearing. So at least some elves are taking the time to put a day or so into a task before they decide "i have years to do this" and wander off aimlessly to OM with Nature Looks a lot like Elves (and Drow) have been abused in quite a few games and its hard to throw out the pre-conceived notions we have of them. This is one of the great things about Eberron , you can ditch all the baggage and start again. Having a monolithic , egyptian-style culture for the Aereni Elves makes me think about the possibilities inherent in such a setting (yeah i know im doing the "my glass is half-full" thing here) Also , isnt one of the staples of Wizards the Quest for Eternal Life? Looks like there have been plenty of Humans who became Liches for this reason. How much more obsessed would a very long-lived , but not Immortal race be in obtaining eternal life. |
| drasticale06-05-05, 11:07 PM | Well, considering that childrearing is the whole of 25 years... in which about only a fourth of that is intensive; and utterly requiring devotion of the parent... this means little to the 'wafty' nature of the Elves... It's the nature of the parent that imprints on the nature of the child. A child who doesn't have a parent around that much normally becomes a little less focused than one that has a parent who is around them more. |
| Gez06-06-05, 03:44 AM | Being long-lived and having a gift for magic gives the elves a fey flavor, but among other things, if I was going this route I'd personally make their favored class sorcerer or bard. Wizardry is a science that requires study and devotion, and I feel is more suited to a lawful culture than a chaotic one - whereas if elves had a natural gift for sorcery, they'd be more inherently magical creatures. That's one problem of favored classes, they're a misnomer. Sure, sorcerer would fit better than wizards (though IMC, I went with Wu Jen, their nonlawful restriction, strange taboo, exotic spell list, etc. fit fey-like elves much better than old grumpy bookworms), but elves have always been (since the "elf class" in basic D&D, which was a fighter/magic-user before multiclassing was allowed) adept at mixing magic with something else (especially warfare). The iconic elven prestige classes are bladesinger and arcane archer, which are both for fighter/mage type. |
| Hellcow06-06-05, 02:22 PM | That's one problem of favored classes, they're a misnomer. Yes and no - though I've gone into great detail on this on the AKB thread. In my opinion, "favored class" does not mean the class you're most likely to be - but it means the class you're most comfortable slipping into or dabbling in. Talenta halflings and Valenar elves may both have more, say, rangers than any other class - but if a Talenta ranger deviates he's more likely to slip in a level of rogue, and Talentans are fond of sneak attacks and ambushes. The Valenar ranger on the other hand has thousands of years of arcane lore to draw upon, and may throw in a level of wizard, allowing him to make use of a familiar, mount, mage armor, and other useful spells. I feel that favored class does say something about a culture and the nature of a race, even if it is not the DOMINANT class in the culture. Among the Valenar, fighters, rangers, and scouts may be the most common classes, with pure wizards being as common as, say, bards - but fighter, ranger, and scout may all dabble in wizardry. It's really "favored multiclass." Hence, I feel sorcerer - or wu jen - does make more sense for the chaotic, fey-like elves, as an innate mystical talent that may spontaneously manifest among any member of the race. To me, favored class of wizard implies a long arcane tradition, which goes along with a more stable and studious culture. |
| zambuka06-07-05, 01:30 AM | I know I am wading into this debate rather late but here goes. i am not. Look at Mid-life crises in humans. Now imagine doing the same thing for 200 years. I imagine boredom would strike eventually. Plus, if you could breed a slave race, wouldn't you make them as stupid as possible? No.. I wouldn't. A stupid slave is an almost useless slave. Why do you think working dogs are bred to be as intelligent as possible? A stupid slave can't adapt, can't be easily be taught new ways of doing things and needs constant supervision to make sure he doesn't do anything too stupid. I would breed my slave race to be intelligent enough to learn new things, independant enough to work unsupervised but compliant and unimaginative enough so they don't question why they are doing things or get bored of the things they are doing. If they did get bored they would be intelligent enough to quickly learn something new. They would be intelligent enough to adapt to situational changes but compliant and unimaginative enough not to question why something is done the way they are taught. The hard part is making your slaves unimaginative and compliant without making them into mindless drones that stand confused in a field when they encounter a stump or a rock bigger than the plow can move aside. A stupid slave will likely do something stupid with the rock or stump and break the plow or hurt himself. The intelligent and compliant slave will figure out a solution for the situation at hand and when the situation is over go right back to doing things the way they were told. This alien mind is what the Giants managed to create with the elves. For the most part they follow the traditional ways because they are the ways they were taught. The bowyer crafts the bow the way his grandfather crafted it for no other reason than that is how his grandfather crafted it. It just plain and simply does not occur to the average elf that things can be done differently so why would they be done differently. An elf would not be out of place saying something like "If it worked for grandfather and works for me why would my son need to learn anything different?". If an elven bowyer wanted to do things differently or got bored of making bows he would have the time to learn an entire new trade where he would do create in the new trade the same way his ancestors created. It would not occur to the elven mind that maybe he could make bows differently. I don't see elves as stupid or oppressed by a rigid and unbending system. I see them as a race that has lost its inquiring mind. Learning something new for an elf is a matter of sitting down and readng a few books that are written so that they are not just memorised but understood. Anything not in the ancient libraries holds no interest at all to the majority of elves. Certainly some get over this mindless compliance, these are the elves you find around Khorvaire, living up the lifestyle and breeding with humans. And the rare elf that becomes an adventurer. Even a few independant ones would make their way into the noble caste, these are probably the ones that keep their civilisation from just falling apart. Their system works because of the way an elf would think, not because it is forced on them. To the outsider Aerenal would be a depressing place, to the average Aerenal elf it would just be. |