Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 11-15-04, 07:05 PM	What can I say other than "Thats it, I'm making a Paladin of the Silver Flame now."? :D
ReivaxZerai 11-15-04, 07:19 PM	What can I say other than "Thats it, I'm making a Paladin of the Silver Flame now."? :D Since reading the sourcebook cover to cover, and now this, I think the Silver Flame is scary. Scary as in, "Well, you can either lower the price of your drinks, or you're a 'monster'" Scary as in scary good NPC fun :P
MarkB 11-15-04, 07:20 PM	Gradations of evil exist, and while no mercy can be granted to the demon, hope remains that the greedy merchant or the arrogant king may follow a different path if shown how. The minister -- and the paladin -- leads by example and demonstrates to others the errors of their ways. Oh, dear - I'm guessing the Silver Flame aren't that well liked even aside from purges and Templars. Everyone hates a critic. Nice article, though it didn't touch on the intriguing ambiguity resulting from a demon having been fused with the Flame along with Tira Miron (I always want to call her Tia Maria). Perhaps in part two?
Sucros 11-15-04, 07:28 PM	I think playing a purist would be fun. My favorite PC's have all be obnoxious, and the more about the Silver Flame I read, the more I want to be part of what's wrong with it.
Splendide 11-15-04, 07:33 PM	So, will the innkeeper be finding a way to get that paladin removed from the picture? I say, yes.
SirLoin 11-15-04, 07:36 PM	That article kicked muchio assius. :cool: I can now provide my 'not so fanatical paladin' with some fuel for his fire. Its so hard to put passion into words. I also like the explaination about why they hunted the lycantheropes.
EvilDrPuma 11-15-04, 07:39 PM	So, will the innkeeper be finding a way to get that paladin removed from the picture? I say, yes. No, not at all. In fact, the idea seems to me to miss the point of that little vignette: that there are gradations of evil, and plenty of petty little scumbags like our innkeeper who lack the opportunity, the ambition, the skill, or the guts to be masterminds or to commit more serious breaches of the social contract. If the innkeeper didn't take the paladin's advice (and he probably didn't), then he most likely played it safe for a few days in case the paladin reported him to the authorities or House Ghallanda and then went back to gouging his prices. Petty little crimes for a petty little villain.
Bluebrush 11-15-04, 08:01 PM	Tira Miron (I always want to call her Tia Maria). It's Tira Misu for me.
Edymnion 11-15-04, 08:03 PM	That article kicked muchio assius. :cool: I can now provide my 'not so fanatical paladin' with some fuel for his fire. Its so hard to put passion into words. I also like the explaination about why they hunted the lycantheropes.Yes, after reading that article, I went back to my ECS and looked up Church of the Silver Flame entry, then the Exorcist of the Silver Flame PrC. Somewhere in the back of my head I've got an image. It is a Warforged, a flametouched iron arrowhead bolted to his forehead over the top of his normal insignia. His armor has been reshaped to place the Silver Flame large upon his breast. He is an Exorcist, standing alone in depths of a long lost dungeon, where no light reaches. Evil things move in the shadows, as he is engulfed in a pure silver flame, filling the room with it's light. He is the lone light in the darkness, the cleansing flame. He raises his bow and draws an arrow, which catches alight in his flame. As he launches his holy arrow directly towards the camera, the silver flame fills the scene as it fades to white. Okay, don't mind me, got sidetracked.
Splendide 11-15-04, 08:09 PM	No, not at all. In fact, the idea seems to me to miss the point of that little vignette: that there are gradations of evil, and plenty of petty little scumbags like our innkeeper who lack the opportunity, the ambition, the skill, or the guts to be masterminds or to commit more serious breaches of the social contract.Hmm, I got a completely different interpretation. "I am a paladin of the Silver Flame. I am sworn to fight evil in all its forms. My sword is for the fiends and monsters that deserve neither reason nor mercy. But you are no monster, and you can still find redemption." Handor put his hand on the hosteller's shoulder. "Consider your actions. Think about those you have harmed. Seek out a minister and cleanse your soul. The true darkness is rising, and if we are to survive we must all find a path to the light. If you cannot . . . then perhaps you are a monster, after all." Interpretation: I know you're a thief, but I'm not going to kill you....yet. If I come back and you're still a thief, watch out. For an innkeeper that may well be used to underworld bullying, this paladin represents another rival gang...sure, the price is two crowns for beer, but the extra crown goes to paying for `protection'. Its all very well for this guy to come wandering in here laying on the threats, but he's not the one that has to deal with smashed tables and harrassed customers. And he virtually threatened violence! This isn't on, I'm telling the gang and they can sort it out. I pay them for no harrassment, well, this is harrassment! And of course, if it turns out that there is in fact `something worse' as inferred by the paladin, there's a great motivation.
SirLoin 11-15-04, 08:11 PM	Somewhere in the back of my head I've got an image. It is a Warforged, a flametouched iron arrowhead bolted to his forehead over the top of his normal insignia. His armor has been reshaped to place the Silver Flame large upon his breast. He is an Exorcist, standing alone in depths of a long lost dungeon, where no light reaches. Evil things move in the shadows, as he is engulfed in a pure silver flame, filling the room with it's light. He is the lone light in the darkness, the cleansing flame. He raises his bow and draws an arrow, which catches alight in his flame. As he launches his holy arrow directly towards the camera, the silver flame fills the scene as it fades to white. Ahh yes good ol' Lance Strong-arm. The original warforged to take the 'first step' onto the Flame.
Golbez57 11-15-04, 08:41 PM	One of three PCs in the campaign I'm currently running is a Templar of the Church, displaced from Cyre and left without a family after the Day of Mourning. He's not so menacing... yet. I imagine that plunging him and his companions into the depths of evil will cut a harder edge along him, though. Of course, after he reads this article, it'll be interesting to see how he responds to the barroom games that'll be part of their next session! "Do not seek to drown your sorrows or responsibilities in that drink, sir." "No, I will not climb aboard that table and participate in this so-called 'sport'."
Edymnion 11-15-04, 08:43 PM	Ahh yes good ol' Lance Strong-arm. The original warforged to take the 'first step' onto the Flame.Why not? Warforged are seeking a purpose, and were built to fight. What better than the fight against evil in all of it's forms, to devote himself to this cause as he was devoted to fighting the war. Only this time, its his choice. This time, he doesn't fight for another, he fights for himself, to prove that he not only has a soul, but that his burns as brightly as any other's. As Tira Miron took the first step so many centuries ago, so does he! Okay, yeah, I'm gonna have to write up this guy's backstory here soon, while inspiration is still hot.
ReivaxZerai 11-15-04, 08:44 PM	If overcharging for things was a crime, or evil, then we can be sure that 99% of the people engaged in business will be burning in whatever hell their existence believes in. "charge three crowns when the price is two" What is the "the price"? Are there laws that say the price of ale in this pub cannot exceed 2 coins? If there is no law stating otherwise, if it is a free market economy, then the bartender can charge what he wants and the customers can drink elsewhere if they don't like it. No, the paladin of the Silver Flame in this article's example is clearly overzealous and clearly not a 'good guy' with a 'pure heart' which is what makes him all the more interesting to me. I love a RPG religion that has people thinking twice about its precepts. It isn't as though the innkeeper was taking the purses of drunks when they passed out.
SirLoin 11-15-04, 08:49 PM	Somehow I don't think overcharging people was what that bartender was doing. Hence the word 'harm' being used. That was a case of the paladins 'detect evil' or 'detect harm' picking up a blip on the radar.
helzapoppn 11-15-04, 09:22 PM	If overcharging for things was a crime, or evil, then we can be sure that 99% of the people engaged in business will be burning in whatever hell their existence believes in. "charge three crowns when the price is two" What is the "the price"? Innkeeper: The third Crown is for the Ambience, good Sir! Silver Flame Paladin: Right, this place just reeks of class. Here's a thought: 'Liquor Commissioner' as a logical PrC for Silver Flame Paladins...that would explain it.
Sucros 11-15-04, 09:56 PM	Somewhere in the back of my head I've got an image. It is a Warforged, a flametouched iron arrowhead bolted to his forehead over the top of his normal insignia. His armor has been reshaped to place the Silver Flame large upon his breast. He is an Exorcist, standing alone in depths of a long lost dungeon, where no light reaches. Evil things move in the shadows, as he is engulfed in a pure silver flame, filling the room with it's light. He is the lone light in the darkness, the cleansing flame. He raises his bow and draws an arrow, which catches alight in his flame. As he launches his holy arrow directly towards the camera, the silver flame fills the scene as it fades to white. Okay, don't mind me, got sidetracked. In one of the Sharn chapter openers, there's a picture of a warforged with the silver flame insignia on his chest, which the caption calls "flametouched".
Splendide 11-15-04, 10:33 PM	I kind of assumed the third crown was the result of deliberate shortchanging of drunks.
Sarlax 11-15-04, 11:54 PM	If a single lycanthrope remained alive, it could pass the curse to others, and they could pass the curse to others, and within a generation the problem could arise anew. This is either a 3.0 holdover or deliberate disinformation from the Silver Flame. Curse of Lycanthropy (Su): Any humanoid or giant hit by a natural lycanthrope’s bite attack in animal or hybrid form must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or contract lycanthropy. If the victim’s size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope the victim cannot contract lycanthropy from that lycanthrope. Afflicted lycanthropes cannot pass on the curse of lycanthropy. There's no risk of a terrible plague of lycanthropy. Only true lycanthropes can spread the curse, and they are able to control their forms constantly; there isn't too much risk of accidental transmission as long as the lycanthrope isn't using its claws. The Silver Flame murdered thousands of creatures whom it should have taught to exercise caution. There was never any danger of everyone in Khorvaire becoming a lycanthrope.
Hellcow 11-16-04, 01:04 AM	This is either a 3.0 holdover or deliberate disinformation from the Silver Flame. I'll go with 3.0 holdover. In point of fact, it comes from the fact that the line in question - "Afflicted lycanthropes cannot pass on the curse of lycanthropy" is only mentioned on page 176 of the MM, under the template description; it is not included on pages 171-175, where the description of the curse is given a total of seven times without mentioning this (I suppose a quibbler could argue that all the listed lycanthropes can spread it when afflicted, and it's only templated lycanthropes that can't -- but I'm guessing it was just carelessness on someone's part). In my opinion it goes against the phrase "lycanthropy can be spread like a disease"; and from the standpoint of traditional folklore, I think it would make far more sense to say that only afflicted lycanthropes can spread the curse, since in most stories "natural" shapeshifters do not infect others. Anyhow, for me this significantly changes the feel of the lycanthrope, and I for one will stick with 3.0 rules (or simply ignore the template paragraph, since that's what I've been doing by accident ever since I started playing 3.5 -- and given that no one else on the Eberron design team challenged this, I'm guessing that I'm not alone). Being as how the purge is in the past, it's up to you whether to do the same or whether to say that the followers of the Flame were mistaken, misled, willfully slaughtering innocents, or simply taking no chances.
Raster 11-16-04, 01:26 AM	I don't have anything against all this great info on "The darker side of the Silver Flame", but it seems to me that the side of the Curch of the Silver Flame that isn't particularly overzealous or outright corrupt has been neglected. Nearly every post on the boards about the CSF latches onto Lycanthrope purge, the possible third voice of the flame, the the overzealous examples, and says "hey I can use these guys as enemies in my campign!" ReivaxZerai's comment on the CSF being scary is just another example of this. Does anyone use a balance of honest, sincere, friendly members of the church to temper the excessive, holier-than-thou zealots in their campaign?
Hellcow 11-16-04, 01:31 AM	Does anyone use a balance of honest, sincere, friendly members of the church to temper the excessive, holier-than-thou zealots in their campaign? For what it's worth, Raster, in my campaign they're good guys more often than not. ;) As a side note here: while I encourage people to read and use the Dragonshard articles however they want, what is intended with the example of the paladin is not that he's literally noticed that the price is 3 and he thinks that's too high, but that he's used detect evil and senses evil in the man's soul. The point is that he knows the innkeeper is evil -- but he doesn't know what makes him evil. So he's saying "Something about you isn't right - but I don't know what it is. If you're just a swindler, hopefully you can change your ways. Because if you're an unrepentant baby-killer, I might have to do something about it." But again, the ambiguity about the church and the fact that its members can be used as both heroes and villains is certainly intentional, and I certainly don't want to discourage it.
Ectoplasmoid 11-16-04, 03:12 AM	When the Church targets a problem, it seeks to completely eliminate it. The templars act with ruthless efficiency. NOBODY expects the Thranish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is suprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency ...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Flame.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again. (Exit and exeunt) :)
Just another user 11-16-04, 03:14 AM	What can I say other than "Thats it, I'm making a Paladin of the Silver Flame now."? :D Until the next dragonshard's subject come up, at least. :) But I agree, that was very good. The piece of fiction in the intro should be used in the PHB to show how a true paladin should behave. (And this time even Under the Glass was very good) Oh, dear - I'm guessing the Silver Flame aren't that well liked even aside from purges and Templars. Everyone hates a critic. expecially when he is right. "charge three crowns when the price is two" What is the "the price"? I think it means "the fair price". I'm the only one that got a positive spin out of that piece of fiction?
MarkB 11-16-04, 05:33 AM	Anyhow, for me this significantly changes the feel of the lycanthrope, and I for one will stick with 3.0 rules (or simply ignore the template paragraph, since that's what I've been doing by accident ever since I started playing 3.5 -- and given that no one else on the Eberron design team challenged this, I'm guessing that I'm not alone). Being as how the purge is in the past, it's up to you whether to do the same or whether to say that the followers of the Flame were mistaken, misled, willfully slaughtering innocents, or simply taking no chances. I agree that the idea of afflicted lycanthropes being unable to pass on the curse seems wrong. Perhaps as a balance it could be changed so that afflicted lycanthropes are only able to pass on the curse after they've been afflicted for some time (perhaps a year), and the curse is well-established. Or that the offspring of two afflicted lycanthropes is a true lycanthrope, and can pass on the curse. Or as an interesting alternative, maybe the Silver Flame were successful - maybe afflicted lycanthropes used to be infectious, but the truly virulent strains of lycanthropy were all eliminated during the purge, and modern lycanthropes carry a diluted form of the curse which cannot spread so readily. Had the Flame not acted as they did, perhaps the plague would indeed have spread out of control.
polt 11-16-04, 05:37 AM	I really liked it, good writing, good info. Also, i really like the idea of a Paladin killing a child (because the child is a lycan), and then afterwards spending a day or something in mourning and praying. Awesome!
MarkB 11-16-04, 05:41 AM	I liked the opening fiction scene, because it involves a paladin doing exactly what almost every paladin I've seen played does - using his innate Detect Evil ability effectively as a targetting scanner. I like the idea that a Paladin who does this could be effectively in-character as a Silver Flame Templar, and at least the article does make clear that in the case of such innocuous folk the Paladin's first weapon of choice should be words.
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 11-16-04, 05:55 AM	I like that the opening fiction sends something of a message to all the immature paladins out there. Specifically, it says, "A paladin who detects evil does not automatically slay the source of the evil. If there's an evil innkeeper, you give him the eye, and a warning; you are neither within the law or any sort of rational morality if you strike him down." And now, because I feel it to be necessary: *laughs* I didn't expect the Thranish Inquisition! No one expects the Thranish Inquisition! Our weapon is surprise! That's all, just surprise! What about fear? Oh, all right, surprise and fear. And a fanatical- Shut up!
Kid SixXx 11-16-04, 09:08 AM	For what it's worth, Raster, in my campaign they're good guys more often than not. ;) Ditto. The church's prime goal is the elimination of supernatural evil, so they're okay in my book. I'm not sure how the lycanthrope purges automatically stamped the church as an instrument of evil. Even with the alignment ambiguity that exists in the setting, we are talking about beings that usually see the other humanoid races as prey, such as werewolves & wererats. There is a bit of a double standard, IMO. The church hunted down all lycanthropes, so they are considered evil merely because some lycanthropes are occasionally good or neutral? I don't buy that.
BuddyL33 11-16-04, 11:13 AM	I personally love the Paladin of The Silver Flame I am playing in the Eberron game I play in. He is a 6'5", blonde-haired, blue-eyed man in his early 20s. He fights with a Gyrspike, and wants to abolish all evil. He is very naive in the ways of the real world!
lukelightning 11-16-04, 11:25 AM	If overcharging for things was a crime, or evil, then we can be sure that 99% of the people engaged in business will be burning in whatever hell their existence believes in. I got the impression that the paladin used detect evil on the guy, saw he was evil, and then intimidated him by saying "I Know and I Am Watching You." The comments regarding price/watering down ale, etc. were the paladin's way of highlighting how the guy was headed down the path of evil. If the guy were a farmer, the paladin might have said "perhaps you beat your animals, or steal your neighbors crops, or hoard your food from your hungry neighbors." If the guy was a fashion designer, the paladin would have said "I sense evil within you; perhaps you purposely design pants that make my butt look fat, or shoes that are far too painful to walk in..." I thought this was an excellent example of how one can play a strict paladin; notice that he didn't just chop the guy's head off because he detected an evil aura.
ReivaxZerai 11-16-04, 12:12 PM	I think it means "the fair price". Define fair? I think fair price for a beer is $2.50 If I go to a baseball game at Anaheim Stadium, it's $7.50 So, should Paladins be lining up outside the stadium's management offices, with their swords in hand? :) My point is, that I just think the story is cool. It shows a paladin who is not absolutely and totally a boring extreme of do-good, predictable, gullible, naive, stupid stereotype that makes the paladin a love/hate class; you either love it or hate it. There is nothing in those few lines to indicate that the bartender is anything malicious. Unless in Eberron, making a profit is considered evil :) Honestly, the few lines are enough to get me to maybe try one of the Eberron novels.
ReivaxZerai 11-16-04, 12:17 PM	I thought this was an excellent example of how one can play a strict paladin; notice that he didn't just chop the guy's head off because he detected an evil aura. Haha, yes, he said: You're not a monster. People who overcharge for their beer are monsters, but I'm going to give you a chance to stop overcharging, then next time we'll see if you're still a monster. Unless you've changed, next time you see me coming you better run Great little piece of writing.
The Fireballed Mage 11-16-04, 12:49 PM	That's the great thing about the fiction piece and how it relates to the Church of the Silver Flame: it means different things to different people. The paladin is right: As the goal of the Silver Flame is to fight supernatural evil and corruption, this paladin does the right thing. The barkeep is a little evil, and such does not yet deserve smiting. But his customers will benefit if he knows that he's being watched. Words will prevent the innocent from suffering from this little man, and maybe keep him away from greater evils. The paladin is wrong: What gives this paladin the right to look into the soul of this man? What mitigating details of his man's life does the paladin not know, and not care about? How can the paladin be just in passing judgement, when it appears he's using gifts better spent against fiends to lord power over innkeepers? Who truly has the greater evil in their soul? That's what's great about the CSF. It can do both good or evil, depending on your view.
Joni-san 11-16-04, 12:54 PM	Interesting article there Keith, can't wait to see the next part of it :) I'll propably portray the Curch of the Silver flame in many vaious way. From honest believers, raving (mindless) zealots to corrupt clergy. And why not throw in an adventure based on RL news every now and then (Like that one kid in Chicago :bigeyes:, that town in Sweden :yuck:, the events in northern India :headexplo and of course that zoo in Taiwan :D)
Golbez57 11-16-04, 12:57 PM	Anais, the Cyran refugee and Templar of the Church I mentioned in an earlier post, shines pretty brightly next to Demetrious. The latter was once a thuggish mercenary who served various masters in the Last War who, wounded terribly on the field, was taken in and tended to--physically and spiritually--by the monks of a monastary dedicated to the Silver Flame in the mountains of Aundair. Demetrious was one of the few survivors of a raid by renegade hobgoblin mercenaries during the late stages of the last war, and eventually spent many years in their slave fighting pits once he was pressed back to the western mountains fo what was eventually Dhakaan. (Yeah, it wasn't easy for me to work with "I want to be a Fighter/Monk who follows the Silver Flame and hates hobgoblins because they made him fight as a gladiator.") He has found a kindred spirit in Anais, the paladin who holds the same faith and was among his eventual rescuers. Demetrious, while technically one of the "good guys", has some pretty deep spiritual scars. Anais exhibits the more benevolent side of the Silver Flame faithful in his efforts to help Demetrious recover from his ordeals, and experience has already shown that Anais could stand to learn something from Demetrious' "evil is not to be bargained with or rehabilitated, but scoured" approach. They play off each other really well. It'll be interesting to see how their characters develop alongside one another, and how they respond--differently and similarly--to the intrigues that'll eventually be reavealed within the Church.
fuindordm 11-18-04, 04:12 AM	This was a really great article. I'd love to see a similar one on the Blood of Vol; I can't quite get my head around the lighter side of this religion. You know, what the common folk believe, how they worship, and how they find something uplifting amid the creepiness of having a mummy for your high priest. Ben
ImmortalBlueMage 11-18-04, 07:20 AM	I don't have anything against all this great info on "The darker side of the Silver Flame", but it seems to me that the side of the Curch of the Silver Flame that isn't particularly overzealous or outright corrupt has been neglected. Nearly every post on the boards about the CSF latches onto Lycanthrope purge, the possible third voice of the flame, the the overzealous examples, and says "hey I can use these guys as enemies in my campign!" ReivaxZerai's comment on the CSF being scary is just another example of this. Does anyone use a balance of honest, sincere, friendly members of the church to temper the excessive, holier-than-thou zealots in their campaign? I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. I'm really not happy with the nominal depiction of the Silver Flame in the material that's been put out thus far. There's a stereotype of the Paladin: He's stuck up, a prude, a pain in the ass, judgemental, short-sighted, narrow-minded, self-righteous and ignorant. Doesn't drink, doesnt' swear, says his prayers three times a day. If any of the other party members so much as belch in public he'll lecture them for an hour. When he Detects Evil, he draws his sword and starts hacking bodies left and right, shouting out the name of his God and deeming his enemies "BEYOND REDEMPTION!" I hate this image of the Paladin, and in my opinion, the Silver Flame plays right into it. To be honest, I wish the Lycanthrope Inquistion had just been left out of Eberron history altogether, because that's all anyone seems to remember when they talk about Thrane, and it just seems to paint the Silver Flame as the bad guys no matter what (everyone does remember that Lycanthropes are monsters, right, that their MM entries read "usually evil"?). Bottom line, I'm not particularly fond of the fact that my favorite class is constantly played for the fool, and while the Silver Flame could be a great storytelling tool to help fix up the Paladin's image, instead, thus far and as written, it just seems to be making things worse.
Kid SixXx 11-18-04, 08:58 AM	I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this.. Neither do I. My comments are on the first page of the thread. As I said before, there is a bit of metagaming going on IMO. People who seem to have sour feelings about organized religions in real-life are going after the CSF, and using the Lycanthrope purges as the vehicle to villify the entire organization. It's ironic that they brand the church as an evil organization as a whole for the Lycanthrope purges, which were pretty much the result of a minority opinion in the church that became policy. In the same breath, the very same people absolve all Lycanthropes (including werewolves and wererats, which are usually evil and actively prey on humanoids), merely because a handful of Lycanthrope types are good or neutrally aligned. That hardly seems balanced.
Imruphel 11-18-04, 09:07 AM	(snip) There's a stereotype of the Paladin: He's stuck up, a prude, a pain in the ass, judgemental, short-sighted, narrow-minded, self-righteous and ignorant. (snip more good stuff) I have to agree with you. The paladin is NOT lawful neutral and shouldn't be played this way. Sorry, to be more specific, if played this way he is likely in breach of the "good" component of his alignment.
Ezrael 11-18-04, 09:41 AM	Neither do I. My comments are on the first page of the thread. As I said before, there is a bit of metagaming going on IMO. People who seem to have sour feelings about organized religions in real-life are going after the CSF, and using the Lycanthrope purges as the vehicle to villify the entire organization. Okay, without dragging in Godwin, any time an organization engages in a 'purge' of a group it's going to be scrutinized both out of game and in-game. The Silver Flame war on lycanthropes can certainly be justified in-game, but nevertheless, it can also be villified in-game: a lot of people aren't going to like the idea of a religious order deciding who lives and who dies based on a condition (a curse, really, in some cases) they didn't ask for in many cases. Especially since in Eberron, alignment is not determined by the Monster Manual: you don't just dismiss all lycanthropes as evil because their stat block says so. That's as much metagaming as anything anyone else might have done. It's ironic that they brand the church as an evil organization as a whole for the Lycanthrope purges, which were pretty much the result of a minority opinion in the church that became policy. In the same breath, the very same people absolve all Lycanthropes (including werewolves and wererats, which are usually evil and actively prey on humanoids), merely because a handful of Lycanthrope types are good or neutrally aligned. That hardly seems balanced. Again, first off you don't know that lycanthropes are usually evil in Eberron any more than red dragons: alignment is not inherited. But that aside, an atrocity is an atrocity whether or not it's in the service of a greater social good: the example above of a paladin being unable to stand by and watch torture even for the purposes of wringing important information out of a captive comes to mind. Sure, many lycanthropes may well be evil, but a paladin is held to a higher standard of conduct than others: he can kill lycanthropes because they've harmed others, or threaten to do the same. He can kill them because his supervisors assure him they're evil monsters and he has no ability to nor reason to question them. There's plenty of reasons why good people would go along with the lycanthrope purge: there's also plenty of reasons why good people would deplore it. But I find the idea that, especially in a setting like Eberron where alignment is not destined nor fixed in the manner of other D&D campaigns that lycanthropes have to be excused for the evil actions of other lycanthropes... in other words, saying that it's okay that a few innocents were brutally murdered if you got some evil ones too... to be a very un-Paladin like code of action. It sounds more like a justification after the fact, not a real reason. I don't think the whole Church of the Silver Flame is evil because of the Lycanthrope Purge any more than I think that the whole of the Catholic Church is responsible for the Spanish Inquisition. But Torquemada? Evil. Those that supported and abetted the auto da fe? Also evil. Whether, as Montague Summers argued, you believe that Torquemada was acting in the best interests of Europe and Christendom or not is immaterial: even if every single person tortured and killed by the Inquisition was guilty of heresy or worse, it was still evil. Similarly, even if the Church of the Silver Flame can quite rightly argue, as Torquemada could not, that Lycanthropes were a very real dangerous threat that doesn't justify hacking the young werewolf who's never hurt anybody in his life and just wants to be left alone to death. That's an evil act, and many paladins actually took pains to not do that, allowing their targets to escape to other planes. For myself, events like the Purge serve as very real reminders that even very good men can do evil. It makes the Silver Flame more compelling and multi-dimensional to me: I actually briefly played a Shifter Ranger in an IRC game who had a Warforged Silver Flame Cleric in his party, and they debated the Purge back and forth all the time. I think a Paladin of the Silver Flame as presented in the Dragonshards article could be a nice change of pace from the stereotypical paladin being decried: he's proactive but not reactionary, he tries diplomacy first but he's not afraid to call someone on his behavior, and you'll note that he comes right out and says the guy has nothing to fear from him at this point in time. I found it interesting and hardly the same as lecturing people over drinking or what have you. Personally, my model for a paladin in Eberron is Robert E. Howard's Solomon Kane. "I am a landless man," a strange, intangible, almost mystic look flashed into his cold eyes. "I come out of the sunset and into the sunrise I go, wherever the Lord doth guide my feet. I seek - my soul's salvation, mayhap. I came, following the trail of vengeance. Now I must leave you. The dawn is not far away and I would not have it find me idle. It may be that I shall see you no more. My work here is done; the long red trail is ended. The man of blood is dead. But there be other men of blood and other trails of revenge and retribution. I work the will of God. While evil flourishes and wrongs grow rank, while men are persecuted and women wronged, while weak things, human and animal, are maltreated, there is no rest for me beneath the skies, nor peace at any board or bed. Farewell!" - from Blades of the Brotherhood If I end up playing a Paladin in an Eberron campaign, and I'd very much like to, I would very much base him on Kane. Here's more on why. (http://www.nightshadebooks.com/discus/messages/2210/2499.html)
Kid SixXx 11-18-04, 11:14 AM	I seem to have struck a nerve... Okay, without dragging in Godwin, any time an organization engages in a 'purge' of a group it's going to be scrutinized both out of game and in-game. The Silver Flame war on lycanthropes can certainly be justified in-game, but nevertheless, it can also be villified in-game: a lot of people aren't going to like the idea of a religious order deciding who lives and who dies based on a condition (a curse, really, in some cases) they didn't ask for in many cases. Firstly, the origins of the curse are incidental. What matters is that they are currently lycanthropes, and that the majority of them take murderous pleasure in their condition. Secondly, we're talking about a condition that cause the the majority infected to prey upon other humanoid beings. 9 times out of 10, when a werewolf lays eyes on you, he thinks "dinner," not "nice armor." Especially since in Eberron, alignment is not determined by the Monster Manual: you don't just dismiss all lycanthropes as evil because their stat block says so. That's as much metagaming as anything anyone else might have done. Touche. That point I will concede. Sure, many lycanthropes may well be evil, but a paladin is held to a higher standard of conduct than others: he can kill lycanthropes because they've harmed others, or threaten to do the same. Not just harmed others.. Eaten others... Those not inflicted with the curse are usually on the menu. He can kill them because his supervisors assure him they're evil monsters and he has no ability to nor reason to question them. There's plenty of reasons why good people would go along with the lycanthrope purge: there's also plenty of reasons why good people would deplore it. As shown in the article, there had to have been some regret on the part of the paladins, but they are the swords of the church & responded in the manner they should have. Better to be dubbed a murderer by the unappreciative then branded a heretic by the organization that supports you, I suppose. I don't think the whole Church of the Silver Flame is evil because of the Lycanthrope Purge any more than I think that the whole of the Catholic Church is responsible for the Spanish Inquisition. But Torquemada? Evil. Those that supported and abetted the auto da fe? Also evil. Whether, as Montague Summers argued, you believe that Torquemada was acting in the best interests of Europe and Christendom or not is immaterial: even if every single person tortured and killed by the Inquisition was guilty of heresy or worse, it was still evil. Similarly, even if the Church of the Silver Flame can quite rightly argue, as Torquemada could not, that Lycanthropes were a very real dangerous threat that doesn't justify hacking the young werewolf who's never hurt anybody in his life and just wants to be left alone to death. That's an evil act, and many paladins actually took pains to not do that, allowing their targets to escape to other planes. A nice history lesson, but those victims of the Inquisition did not transform into beasts which, for the most part, ate the flesh of other beings. This is an apples to oranges comparison. In a nutshell, the Inquisition sought to solidify the power base of the Church in Europe by compromising the economic, social, and political clout of the Jews. By contrast, the Lycanthrope Purge was the active extermination of beings that, for the most part, posed a viable threat to humanoid populations, either by the spread of Lycanthrope, or hunting the humanoids for food. There is a world of difference in those two concepts. For myself, events like the Purge serve as very real reminders that even very good men can do evil. It makes the Silver Flame more compelling and multi-dimensional to me. Like most people, I find quite a bit of tragedy and misguided aims in the Purge, and like others, I find it disturbing that one organization would "make a decision for the rest of us" and assume such a sweeping course of action. However, given "typical" lycanthrope behavior & considering the alternative (ie. allowing lycanthropes to run unchecked), I don't view the purge as such a grotesque evil. The Church got them, before the Lycanthropes got to the rest of us. A pre-emptive strike was launched to quell Lycanthrope before it spread to others. Most rational societies would welcome that. If anything, given the existance of Shifters & their acceptance into society, the Purges were a gross social disservice, and a disservice only to Shifters who actively support Eberron society. I think that it's sad that out of the many things the Church does in defense of Eberron citizens as a whole on a daily basis (ie. de facto opposition of evil outsiders such as the Dal Quori and the Daelkyr), folks run to one set of circumstances (the Purges) as an example why the entire organization should forever be branded as a hive of villainy. In the same breath, the same people discount the immeasurable atrocities that the majority of Lycanthropes commit against normal people on a daily basis because: 1) Some types of Lycanthropes are good or neutral. 2) Eberron alignment ambiguity gives evil lycanthropes the possibility (not certainty) of being good or neutral. and / or 3) Real-life hang-ups with real-life religion translate into distrust of a fictional religious organization which, on it's face, tends to do pretty nice things for society as a whole, despite their stern exterior. The fact that Paladins are mostly stereotyped in metagame as zealous, holier-than-thou dunderheads eager to crush infidels does not help the matter. Don't get me wrong. I fully believe that any organization, especially the CSE, is capable of doing vast amounts of harm in the course of attempting to do something good. Blind faith will ultimately lead to the ruination of the CSE if it is not careful, or does not temper it's future actions with wisdom. I'm just not convinced that the Lycanthrope Purge was such a monstrous act as everyone believes it is.
Edymnion 11-18-04, 02:38 PM	Heh, you guys would hate the Paladin I'm about to play. As a Paladin, he gets Detect Evil at will. He's only a level or two away from Exorcist of the Silver Flame, which at 4th level gets Detect Thoughts at will. Soul searching will take on a whole new meaning :P
Hellcow 11-18-04, 04:16 PM	There's a stereotype of the Paladin: He's stuck up, a prude, a pain in the ass, judgemental, short-sighted, narrow-minded, self-righteous and ignorant. Doesn't drink, doesnt' swear, says his prayers three times a day. If any of the other party members so much as belch in public he'll lecture them for an hour. When he Detects Evil, he draws his sword and starts hacking bodies left and right, shouting out the name of his God and deeming his enemies "BEYOND REDEMPTION!" I hate this image of the Paladin, and in my opinion, the Silver Flame plays right into it. I'm sorry to hear this, because in my opinion it's exactly the opposite of what a paladin of the Silver Flame should do; it's behavior that would be more common of a templar who was a fighter or warrior. Paladins of the church will be addressed further in part two, but to quote what I've written so far... Sadrian scowled as he watched the archierophant conduct the Ritual of Cleansing. He could sense the darkness in her soul; like so many of the priests in Sharn, she was filled with ambition and greed. But the Council of Cardinals had invested Ythana Morr with her position, and he had seen her perform miracles with the power of the Flame; it was not the place of a lowly Templar to challenge her faith. Hey! A paladin who senses evil, and yet doesn't start hacking right and left. Surely he wants to do something about it, but violence is not the answer. "I am a paladin of the Silver Flame. I am sworn to fight evil in all its forms. My sword is for the fiends and monsters that deserve neither reason or mercy. But you are no monster, and you can still find redemption." Ditto. He senses evil, but as it is human evil, his goal is to correct it through words and guidance. It is the task of the paladin to fight evil, but violence is not always the answer, and hopefully few people are beyond redemption. It's up to you to interpret how serious he was about his final comment; after all, a little intimidation can help drive a point home. The minister – and the paladin – is expected to lead by example, and to show others the errors of their ways. A handful of paladins found alternatives. Some helped werebears escape to Lamannia, while others sought to cure the afflicted. But... the Keeper of the Flame said that once the curse was set (changing alignment) it was too late to save the victim's soul. And so the templars relied on their silvered swords, cutting out the cancer and praying for forgiveness when innocents fell at their hands. Key point here. Paladins are rare. In my opinion, it is the paladin who should be the rarest of all PC classes, because while you can choose to enter the priesthood, a paladin must be called by the divine. In the lycanthropic purge, you're only dealing with a handful of paladins, not a vast army of them -- and the paladins would be the ones going out of their way to try to protect the innocent. They may be the reason there still ARE lycanthropes, if primarily on Lamannia. When the paladin has no choice, he acts with remorse and seeks to atone for his actions. The vast army of the Flame -- and the majority of its more zealous members -- are NOT paladins, because it is the paladin who can truly see where evil lies; the fighter or warrior can imagine it wherever he wishes. Though again, another point here is that evil does not always equal "things possessing an evil alignment"; if a good-aligned creature presents a horrible and unavoidable threat to innocents, it represents evil to the Silver Flame. Now, going back to that last quote: in Eberron, things are not always as they seem. I do not think that a natural lycanthrope must have a set alignment. While it is strongly implied that the bestial nature of the creature pushes it in a particular direction, I'm willing to say that you might find a natural wererat of good alignment. However, it is an inherent part of the curse of lycanthropy that the victim's alignment shifts to the listed alignment of the creature. When a character contracts lycanthropy through a lycanthrope’s bite (see above), no symptoms appear until the first night of the next full moon. On that night, the afflicted character involuntarily assumes animal form and forgets his or her own identity, temporarily becoming an NPC. The character remains in animal form, assuming the appropriate alignment, until the next dawn. A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes. Once a character becomes aware of his affliction, he can now voluntarily attempt to change to animal or hybrid form, using the appropriate Control Shape check DC. An attempt is a standard action and can be made each round. Any voluntary change to animal or hybrid form immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate lycanthrope. So in my opinion, any AFFLICTED werewolf is eventually going to become chaotic evil. And in the views of the Keeper of the time (Jaela might say differently), even a shift to a non-evil alignment was still an enforced change that indicated the destruction of the original soul. Now THAT view can be questioned, but that was the basis of it: afflicted lycanthropes ultimately suffer a drastic change of personality as the lycanthropic curse takes hold. I feel the paladin is challenged to display the true values of the church -- to use his gift to sense evil impulses to try to foster good, and to use his martial skill to defeat the forces that threaten the innocent. He is not simply a slaughterhouse who kills in the name of the divine - any warrior can do that. I feel that paladins should be among the least likely to be found among the zealots, because they are chosen by the divine and have the gift of sight. This is not to say that you shouldn't have more misguided paladins if that's what you want in your game, I just hold them to a fairly high standard in mine; if you want the misguided divine warrior, go with the fighter/cleric and have him THINK he can sense evil! As for lecturing party members if they belch, feh. Do they have evil intent in their souls? Then they need a lecture. That, again, was my point in the piece of fiction. Not that the paladin feels that he must lecture an innkeeper for having high prices. But that he knows this man is EVIL, and he wants to encourage him to change his ways - to talk to a minister who will help him find a better path for his life. The paladin does hope that there can one day be a world in which no one is evil: that is the goal of the Silver Flame. But only a small fraction of the followers of the Flame believe that the sword is the proper tool for all situations.
Hellcow 11-18-04, 04:20 PM	I'd love to see a similar one on the Blood of Vol; I can't quite get my head around the lighter side of this religion. You know, what the common folk believe, how they worship, and how they find something uplifting amid the creepiness of having a mummy for your high priest Then you need to read the sidebar on page 95 of Sharn: City of Towers!
Hellcow 11-19-04, 12:40 AM	I was just wondering if Eberron's lycanthropes change the rule that afflicted lycanthropes cannot spread the curse. I addressed this elsewhere, and initially I was just going to crosspost my previous answer. However, on consideration, I've changed my mind from what I wrote earlier. In retrospect, I see no reason to change the rules as written. However, that does not change the fact that when I created the idea of the lycanthropic purge, it was intended to be an action taken to eliminate a highly infectious magical curse. So, my current view -- which I will make official should there be a suitable place (Dragonshard or sourcebook) to do so, is this: Once upon a time, all lycanthropes were equal in power and capable of transmitting the curse. However, in the purge, the the Church brought magical power to bear in addition to physical force. They weren't just killing lycanthropes, they were engaged in a spiritual battle against the curse itself. The result of this is that today, the power of the curse is much weakened, and afflicted lycanthropes are neither as powerful or as infectious as they were when the purge took place (and yes, this would even affect those who were afflicted and survived the purge to this day; it's a blow against the magic that empowers all lycanthropes). So they were trying to fight the affliction as well as just the victims. With that said, as noted elsewhere, the opinion of the Church was that someone whose personality had been transformed was already lost (and yes, this can be seen as an overzealous stance). And as Elliot22 has pointed out, there's still the issue of breeding new natural lycanthropes and going from there. You can still get one bad natural lycanthrope cursing a village - and if that's a wererat or werewolf, all those victims end up evil. Even if it's not an evil lycanthrope, they are still subjected to a painful experience that ultimately alters their personalities. Most likely, the people the paladins sought to help (as mentioned in the Dragonshard article) were non-evil afflicted lycanthropes who were no longer infectious as a result of this magic; the paladins refused to believe that these people needed to be killed. And hey, as a result, they probably bred a new generation of infectious natural lycanthropes in Lammania. Way to spoil a perfectly good purge, paladins! ;) So: is there a new rule? No. But that's because things have changed over the last two centuries as a direct result of the actions taken by the Silver Flame.
ImmortalBlueMage 11-19-04, 06:45 AM	I'm sorry to hear this, because in my opinion it's exactly the opposite of what a paladin of the Silver Flame should do; it's behavior that would be more common of a templar who was a fighter or warrior. My attitude exactly. Keep in mind Keith, I'm not leveling criticism at you, I'm more annoyed by the gaming community and the pervading view of the Paladin. Let's face it, most people just hate the Paladin in the party because he's the one who won't let them kill everything in sight, so they paint him as an arrogant bastard. My only criticism is that I don't think the Lycanthrope purge was a good idea to include in the game, not based on it's own merits, but because it was destined to be the only thing people ever remember about the Silver Flame.
nyysjan 11-19-04, 07:24 AM	IMO werewolwes and other lycanthropes get really shafted in the rules with the alignment change anyway the rules say quote "Noble creatures sach as bears eagles and lions tend to produce good aligned lycanthropes" unquote and quote "This is a reflection of how these animals are perceived, not an innate quality of the animal itself" unquote so i would think it more likely that most people afflicted with the "Curse" do not change alignment but go little crazy because the animal instincts start giving them new messages they cant handle and start acting in ways they think these creatures should and that changes their alignment not the curse and anyway should not a werewolf be lawful creature after all they live in packs and have highly hierarchial social structure. :confused: and killing people only because they might cause trouble is inherently evil othervise we should kill all people because they can and might cause trouble
Kid SixXx 11-19-04, 01:10 PM	and killing people only because they might cause trouble is inherently evil. othervise we should kill all people because they can and might cause trouble I would concur with this if the notion of murderous lycanthropes, such as werewolves, merely "causing trouble" weren't such a massive understatement. I've seen enough werewolf movies to be hip to the notion of lycanthropes being tragic figures, but the fact of the matter remains that regardless of whether or not they embrace their heritage, they are still remarkably destructive and humanoids are usually either their prey, or future victims of the curse. I suppose if the Silver Flame decided to hunt down the Hag rulers of the monster dominated countries, we'd all of a sudden see sympathy for the Annis & the Night Hags, merely because the rules state that not all Hags have to be evil?
lukelightning 11-19-04, 02:01 PM	Part of the problem with the lycanthropic purge is that the D&D idea of a werewolf (or other lycanthrope) is in many ways very different from the classic view of a werewolf. A classic werewolf is a person who has been cursed or infected by lycanthropy. Most of the time they are a normal person, but when there is a full moon they change into a bloodthirsty monster. As a human they are usually ignorant of their condition, or abhor it and keep it secret, but are certainly not in control of it. But when they change, they are evil regardless of their regular attitudes. Some are aware of their nature, and perhaps can control it, but in these cases they are evil in their "unchanged" form as well. Being a lycanthrope was never a good thing. The notion of a good lycanthrope is an oddity. In D&D it came about by the interpretation of the character of Beorn, a man in the Hobbit who can change into a bear, as a "werebear." I feel this was a mistake, and opened the doors to all sorts of interpretations for non-evil werethings. Now in D&D there seems to be no reason not to be a lycanthrope (meta-gaming LA issues aside). If lycanthropy doesn't make you evil and allows you full control of your mind wouldn't everyone become a were something? Great bonus to stats, damage resistance, heightened senses with no drawbacks. That's why they changed the lycanthropy infection rules; otherwise one PC who is afflicted with it could infect all the other PC's if they want.
polt 11-19-04, 02:21 PM	Well, in the spirit of Eberron, i'm thinking of changing the rules, so Lycans can be of any alignment. With the good ones being rarer.
Hellcow 11-19-04, 02:25 PM	A classic werewolf is a person who has been cursed or infected by lycanthropy. Most of the time they are a normal person, but when there is a full moon they change into a bloodthirsty monster. As a human they are usually ignorant of their condition, or abhor it and keep it secret, but are certainly not in control of it. But when they change, they are evil regardless of their regular attitudes. Some are aware of their nature, and perhaps can control it, but in these cases they are evil in their "unchanged" form as well. Being a lycanthrope was never a good thing. Now in D&D there seems to be no reason not to be a lycanthrope (meta-gaming LA issues aside). If lycanthropy doesn't make you evil and allows you full control of your mind wouldn't everyone become a were something? . I completely agree, and that's why I hold to the alignment change being a significant alteration in personality -- and something I insist on, even with Eberron's lower emphasis on alignment. When I wrote The Complete Guide to Wererats for Goodman Games, I put a lot of thought into what it meant that the curse shifted your alignment -- how was this reflected in the victim? And if you accept that the alteration of alignment does change the victim's personality, it's reasonably logical to conclude that a good lycanthrope would not go around infecting others willy-nilly -- and thus, the evil lycanthropes would form the majority of the lycanthropic population, because they would be the ones running around biting people. (With that said, I actually rather like the idea of a werebear who believes in the Silver Flame running around and biting people BECAUSE it will force them to become good.) But to me, the change of alignment means that the curse has taken over. Your personality is reshaped by magic. It's not just that the evil man no longer feels like doing evil now that he's a werebear: it's that he's a completely different person than who he was before. Certainly with wererats, my argument is that once the wererat is fully converted, his loyalty is to other wererats, not to his former friends or allies. The werewolf is chaotic evil to conform to the traditional image of the werewolf as murderous killer. Quoting the MM 3.5, "evil-aligned lycanthropes seek to murder as many intelligent creatures as possible, often killing their own family members and friends." As to it being unfair to say "Wolves are evil and eagles are good", to me the issue here is not the actual nature of the creature, but rather human perception of it. People fear the wolf, and thus the werewolf is evil. THe eagle is perceived as noble, and the were-eagle reflects this. Lycanthropy is not ABOUT having a close bond with nature - you're not a druid! It's a magical curse. Does this make it a good thing to kill non-evil lycanthropes? No. But it is why the curse was seen as a threat.
lukelightning 11-19-04, 02:29 PM	Well, in the spirit of Eberron, i'm thinking of changing the rules, so Lycans can be of any alignment. With the good ones being rarer. Well, that's the problem; I think people have taken alignment flexibility too far. Good vampires and werewolves and liches and drow are so ludicrously common they are a cliche. I don't mind good lycanthropes in theory, but they should be incredibly rare. And the way Alignment works in Eberron, just because that weremongoose is Chaotic Good doesn't mean she's nice to strangers (especially since she'd probably be defensive to the point of paranoia).
polt 11-19-04, 02:31 PM	How about this: It takes five years (maybe shorter) before the alignment starts chaning. A person bitten by a wearwolf isn't going to be evil within a second, but over the years, his personality changes, and he becomes wicked. I agree. In my world, liches and vampire is still evil.
lukelightning 11-19-04, 02:41 PM	I agree to part of this: in human form their alignment might stay the same for a while, but the point of a werewolf is when they change "the beast" takes over. If you take away this factor, then lycanthropes become kind of bland. They are just shapechangers with damage resistance. How about this: It takes five years (maybe shorter) before the alignment starts chaning. A person bitten by a wearwolf isn't going to be evil within a second, but over the years, his personality changes, and he becomes wicked.
Dex The King 11-19-04, 05:26 PM	There was a good thread about the Lycanthrope purge a while back. Some very good points were made both opposed and favoring the event. After all, some good has arisen out of it. And I have used members of the church as good far more often than as evil, especially with the Keeper of the Flame.
Just another user 11-19-04, 07:34 PM	Now in D&D there seems to be no reason not to be a lycanthrope (meta-gaming LA issues aside). If lycanthropy doesn't make you evil and allows you full control of your mind wouldn't everyone become a were something? Great bonus to stats, damage resistance, heightened senses with no drawbacks. That's why they changed the lycanthropy infection rules; otherwise one PC who is afflicted with it could infect all the other PC's if they want. I guess the last is the reason they made non-natural lycantropes non-infective.
Ashfallen 11-19-04, 09:23 PM	As Keith says, the Lycanthrope Purge wasn't the paladins' fault. Paladins are few and far between in the Church, it was the Puritan faction who drove the Purge, and the Puritans would probably have the fewest paladins of any Flamer faction. Also, as he says, most of the templars shouldn't be actual paladins, they should instead have warrior and adept, fighter and cleric levels - but do they know they're not paladins? IMHO, probably not: we're all templars here. A paladin needn't necessarily know he's a paladin, any more than he knows how many hit points he has. He knows he can do certain things other people can't, and he knows those abilities are granted by the Flame for him to fulfil the tasks it requires of him. Which the Church says, in the case in point, is to kill all the lycanthropes. Remember, paladins are "mystically held to a higher standard than even clerics". So, those paladins with political power in the Church would have opposed the idea of the Purge in the first place, and those in the field would have used their detect evil ability to determine who deserved to die, and restrained the non-paladin holy warriors from killing non-evil lycanthropes where they could. However, any lycanthrope who did show up as evil, even if they were a day old, a paladin would have killed, and rightly so. If a character researched the Lycanthrope Purge in the records of the Church of the Silver Flame, they might find some court martial transcripts of templars prosecuted for refusing to obey orders, and suffering ecclesiastical punishments for "claiming to have the Flame itself, rather than the Church, indicate the Flame's enemies to them". This was a time when the Lawful Neutral, and some of the Lawful Evil, elements of the church--ie, the Puritans--were in the ascendant. A paladin tried at court martial by a Lawful Evil Puritan ecclesiarch would be in a lot of trouble. Worse, rooting out self-righteous dissidents would be exactly the assignment that would appeal to such an ecclesiarch. But this was a hundred and fifty years ago, and the Puritans are weaker in the Church today, in large part due to the troubling outcome of their adventurism. Even today, it's contrary to the nature of Eberron to have the Church blithely accept a paladin's detect evil as superseding church dogma. The paladin himself should have some trouble with that idea, as Keith points out in his story extract. Ironically, it seems to me that paladins are more likely to be plagued with self-doubt than filled with self-righteousness. An interesting take on this paladin-type personality is in the Seafort Saga ("Midshipman's Hope") by David Feintuch. Nicholas Seafort is a truly honorable and righteous person, but he thinks of himself as undeserving and sinful and is amazed and disgusted by the admiration other people have for him. Quite the opposite of the creepy stereotype discussed upthread. That said, there is a place for creepy paladins. Neither high Wisdom nor high Charisma is a class requirement, just an advantage within the class, and even high Charisma doesn't necessarily make a person likeable, just awfully hard to ignore.
nyysjan 11-20-04, 05:04 AM	I still think that sudden change in alignment is a bit cruel to the wolf. Some cind of long battle between the man and the beast might be in order and would give great roleplaying opportunities. And still i don't think that how humans percieve an animal would change someones alignment unless the seed is already there. Animal instinct and human intellect are not very compatible so going mad is not very unlikely but someone with high Will save or possibly Charisma might be able to retain there own personality
Edymnion 11-20-04, 11:54 AM	They can fight it, but when they shift, they are still going to become evil until they shift back. And any 'thrope that WILLINGLY shifts has already lost the battle and given in to their curse. There's nothing in the rules that makes it impossible for you to roleplay any of it, you just have to realize that certain things are the way they are. It doesn't have to make logical sense, any more than turning into a giant werewolf makes any logical sense in the first place. Its magic, and it follows it's own rules.
Hellcow 11-20-04, 03:07 PM	I still think that sudden change in alignment is a bit cruel to the wolf... Animal instinct and human intellect are not very compatible so going mad is not very unlikely... The issue is that you're seeing "animal instinct" and the actual nature of the true animal involved as being relevant to a lycanthrope. I don't. Note that ALL animals -- bear, rat, wolf, boar -- are neutral. A werewolf's change in alignment does not happen because he becomes more like a wolf; if that was the case, he'd become neutral and his intelligence would drop drastically. Instead, he becomes the embodiment of what people fear about the wolf - a predator lurking in the shadows, waiting to strike and kill. Like I said, this is not a druid's wild shape: it is a curse that can turn even the most noble soul into someone who will "seek to murder as many intelligent creatures as possible, often killing their own family members and friends." The SRD also notes that "An evil lycanthrope who is aware of his actions in animal form is not compelled to murder and kill indescriminately, but he delights in bloodshed and will certainly seek out opportunities to slaughter intelligent beings, preferably those of his own race." That's not normal behavior for a wolf, or (I hope) the average player character; but it is normal behavior for a werewolf. The point is that as a werewolf, you are not a mingling of your own persona and a true animal; your personality is shaped by a curse that transforms you into a murderous beast. but someone with high Will save or possibly Charisma might be able to retain there own personality Exactly correct. From the SRD, "Each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his lycanthropic form... Any voluntary change into animal or hybrid form immediately and permanently changes the character's alignment to that of the the appropriate lycanthrope." As Edymnion has said, you can fight it. But it will get harder every time, and you still become evil while shifted. And if you ever willingly change, you have surrendered to the curse and your personality is lost. This is not just extra power: it is a frightening curse that will destroy your personality. I agree with Luke Lightning that the concept of the good lycanthrope was probably inspired by Beorn, and I think that was a mistake. In my opinion, people like Beorn, kitsune, etc should not be lycanthropes; they should be entirely different creatures. I don't think there's any indication that if Beorn had bitten Bilbo, the hobbit would have become a cheerful hobbit-bear; it seems to me that Beorn had learned the art of shapeshifting, and that if anything he was a highly focused druid. This is also why, from a traditional sense, I think that it makes more sense to say that afflicted lycanthropes afflict others, and naturals don't; this would allow you to say that the afflicted lycanthrope is the victim of a curse, while the natural one is not, and pave the way for natural lycanthropes of all alignments. However, I agree that the restriction was undoubtedly put in as a stop-gap against powergamers who actively seek the affliction and who would immediately share it with the entire party. However, holding to the rules as written, my view is as I stated above. The curse could once be transfered by all lycanthropes, but over the course of the purge the power of the curse itself was weakened, limiting the power of afflicted lycanthropes and their ability to pass on the curse. (For a recent example of the classic werewolf, look to Van Helsing; simply being clawed by a werewolf is enough to pass the affliction; while the victim is in beast form he loses all control and seeks to kill his own friends or family; and he knows that he can only hold out for so long before the beast takes over completely.) When dealing with the Church of the Silver Flame, it's also important to note that the vast majority of the members of the church are human and that the purge ended a century ago. The Keeper at the time was a puritan who stated that once the curse had fully taken hold, there was no hope for the victim; but that doesn't mean that Jaela Daran would declare the same thing. It is an example of how far the Church can go when pushed to extremes and driven by puritan zeal; that doesn't mean that it is an example of daily behavior, any more than the Inquisition or Salem Witch Trials reflect on the religions of our world. Extremist beliefs are usually frightening, and as a DM it's up to you to decide how pervasive the puritans are in your use of the Church.
scaryfroman 11-20-04, 03:22 PM	After reading this thread and the dragonshard, I am getting drawn to the idea of a Werebear paladin of the flame, whether as a character or as an NPC. I think there could be a lot of potential there.