Dragonshards: Church of the Silver Flame, Part 2 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragonshards: Church of the Silver Flame, Part 2 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Edymnion
11-22-04, 01:25 PM Can't say this one was quite as good as the first one. Pretty much just said what we already had figured out on our own (most are experts and adepts, high rank does not equal high level, easy to find shelter in the temples, etc).

Some nice clarifications on some matters, nice to have the official word on it anyway. Overall though, the first half was more useful for my campaign than the second.
Kid SixXx
11-22-04, 01:31 PM Can't say this one was quite as good as the first one. Pretty much just said what we already had figured out on our own (most are experts and adepts, high rank does not equal high level, easy to find shelter in the temples, etc)..

I figured pt 2 would be the meat & potatoes portion of the article, as pt 1 was nearly all fluff.

Pt 2 will better help people flesh out that random Silver Flame temple that shows up generically in some future adventure.
MarkB
11-22-04, 01:46 PM I thought it did a very nice job of establishing the ways into the Church for various classes, the responsibilities of each Order, and the various forms that corruption within the Church could take, as well as where PCs could fit in most comfortably.

I think part 1 was the better part for players, but part 2 is definitely the better part for DMs - I'd feel much more confident including the Silver Flame as a major aspect of a campaign now than I would have done before reading that article.
polt
11-22-04, 02:04 PM Well, i have it with this Shard as with most of the others. Whilst reading it, several campaign ideas just kept popping up in my head.
Joni-san
11-22-04, 02:19 PM Well, it's going to be usefull in the future :)
Takasi
11-22-04, 05:14 PM I found this interesting:

Furthermore, a cleric of a good deity always possesses a good aura, regardless of her personal alignment.

So does this mean that a character who is evil can avoid "detect evil" if he takes a divine class dedicated to a god's alignment? What does this say about the nature of "good" and "evil" in Eberron? I guess I missed this in the ECS.
Rinna
11-22-04, 05:15 PM Personally, I liked the clarification of an 'evil' priest. I've always been confused when it came to alignment and what it exactly meant within the game. For the most part, I rarely ever give any of my characters an alignment and detect good/evil has never come up in game. Probably because we (as characters and as players) make our own determination as to what good and evil really are. However, the article did help in terms of how an evil character could follow a good religion. That's one of the things I love about this setting; the moral ambiguity. Excellent, overall.

Rinna
MarkB
11-22-04, 05:33 PM So does this mean that a character who is evil can avoid "detect evil" if he takes a divine class dedicated to a god's alignment? What does this say about the nature of "good" and "evil" in Eberron? I guess I missed this in the ECS.
Well, a character in-game can't just "take a class" in anything - that's a rules concept. What a Cleric is in gameworld-terms is somebody who has genuine, solid faith in a particular deity or divine concept sufficient that his belief can manipulate magical forces and procude divine spells. For an evil character to take such a class, they must genuinely believe in the divinity they're worshipping, and that on some level their actions serve their faith. It's not something someone can just casually pick up in order to dodge Detect Evil spells.
Naudachu
11-22-04, 06:03 PM Actually this is in the Player's Handbook under the Cleric class "Aura" (at least 3.5...not sure about 3.0). Here's Hellcow's take on it (from Ask Keith Baker... thread).

Originally Posted by Hellcow
As I read the rules, that is correct. Just by the basic PHB, a LN cleric of Moradin would have an aura of good. It's just that Eberron lets the cleric diverge somewhat farther.
Takasi
11-22-04, 06:04 PM Dodging detect evil is a rules concept though. Was this in the ECS? I'm at work so I can't reference it.
DwarvinJedi
11-22-04, 06:08 PM Now I want to play a NG or LG(I get rid of the alignment restrictions for Bards/Barbarians) bard of the Silver FLame, who is a friar or pilgrim.
LazarusX
11-22-04, 06:15 PM I found this interesting:

So does this mean that a character who is evil can avoid "detect evil" if he takes a divine class dedicated to a god's alignment? What does this say about the nature of "good" and "evil" in Eberron? I guess I missed this in the ECS.

My answer/example to this question:

If you are a Sovereign Host cleric; but are evil aligned; yep...you hide your evil detection. The gods do not affect your alignment restrictions; so be evil, and worship a good diety. How to roleplay this?

A) Lawful Evil => you do the deeds that your temple requires you to do; whether it be visiting the hospitals and care centers to tend to the injured/dying; or making sermons to preach about. Underneath it all though; you are really using these opportunities to make connections for drug smuggling/robbery/murder; or just personal wealth gain( Yes, i healed you by the grace of my god...that'll be 5gp please). You do not really plan on hurting your church; but you will not let your church hinder your personal advancement either.

B) Neutral Evil => i like to think this evil cleric in a good temple would be more the outright manipulator in the temple itself. Constantly trying to pit cleric vs. cleric; leader vs. subordinate; always playing the game where you come out on top. It's your own little playground until you can attain enough power/wealth to buy up/take over the temple for your own purposes. You want wealth and power, and you aren't bashful about destroying other's lives in the process...yet you realize you need the protection and cover that the temple provides you. You do the deeds required only if someone is watching; and would hurt your reputation in the temple if it was found out you are not a "true believer".

C) Chaotic Evil => Honestly....not sure how you'd pull this one off.

Anyway; those are my interpretations of evil clerics in good aligned temples.

Feel free to argue these points with me; I'm not at all saying i'm 100% right in the alignment descriptions I gave. This is just something I whipped up real quick for examples to assist in roleplaying ideas if someone has the urge to try an evil character in a good temple.

And; of course---we all have our own personal opinions on just what makes each alignment differ from another.
Hellcow
11-22-04, 06:26 PM Dodging detect evil is a rules concept though. Was this in the ECS? I'm at work so I can't reference it.
What is in the ECS - on page 35 - is that a cleric's alignment need not remain within one step of her deity. This does not change the Aura class ability of the cleric (PHB 32) which states that "A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deities's alignment." Again, the issue is that in other settings you could not have an evil cleric of a good god, therefore you couldn't have an evil cleric with a good aura. Note that adepts do not possess this class ability.

With that said, I am in complete agreement with MarkB here. Especially in Eberron, clerics are people of exceptional faith. Most people simply don't have the faith required to become a cleric, let alone to do it on a whim; that's why most priests are experts or adepts. If a PC wants to do it, I'd want to know if it really fits his character concept. Is he going to actively pray and engage in acts of devotion? Is he going to follow the code of conduct of the religion? Even priests who listen to the dark voice of the Flame still spend most of their time engaging in devotional acts towards the Flame, and they possess strong faith -- even if that faith has been perverted from it's original path (and as noted in the Dragonshard, many evil priests may be devoted to the true Flame).

Can it be done? Sure, by the rules. But that assumes that the DM allows a character to do it. In my opinion, multiclassing is always something that a character needs to justify -- and I certainly feel that I have the right as a DM to deny a request. The fighter can't pick up a level of monk one level and a level of wizard the next without some basis for how he learned these remarkable new skills.
Hellcow
11-22-04, 06:37 PM Feel free to argue these points with me; I'm not at all saying i'm 100% right in the alignment descriptions I gave.
I'd just add that in Eberron, the key thing to understand is that an evil person can do good things. In my opinion, an evil person can have noble ideals: it's a question of what he is willing to do to accomplish those ideals. From the dragonshard itself:

The most common form of corruption is when zealous devotion causes a priest to set aside mercy and compassion. Such a priest may be a pillar of his community and an admirable man, absolutely dedicated to the Church. But if he must sacrifice the innocent in pursuit of the greater good, he will. He will torture and kill without remorse. He will not glorify these actions, and will not torture needlessly – but he will not shirk from using dark methods to win the battle against evil.
Such a priest would have nothing to do with a drug business. He is truly devoted to those care centers. And when he catches the priest who IS using the care centers to fund his drug business, he will slowly and brutally torture him to teach him the error of his ways. He may spend most of the day doing good deeds: but he lacks empathy and compassion.

Of course, while this may be "the most common form of corruption", that specifically applies to the Church of the Silver Flame; corrupt priests of Kol Korran are far more likely to focus on greed and graft.

And; of course---we all have our own personal opinions on just what makes each alignment differ from another.
Absolutely!
Naudachu
11-22-04, 07:31 PM It seems to me an evil cleric of a good god, has a twisted (or at least unique) view of what his/her god "really" wants. Its probably a person who thinks there's something drastically wrong with the existing church or society in general and seeks the quick and easy "fix"...usually death of whatever's causing the problem. But as we all know from the Jedi ;) that's the path to the dark side.

In general, I think people in power want power (and generally more of it) to control some bit of chaos...set things right. When the solution doesn't become readily availble they become obsessed. So, an evil cleric of a good god would probably be a person in some kind of position of authority (or actively seeking it), not so much a missionary (which a PC most likely is), although there are examples of that in history :( .

Well, I guess that's my take. In a roundabout way.
Hellcow
11-22-04, 08:01 PM It seems to me an evil cleric of a good god, has a twisted (or at least unique) view of what his/her god "really" wants.
Indeed. The critical thing here is that in comparison to, say, FR, it's very hard to know what the gods want. The gods are mysterious beings who do not manifest on this world (or in any of the known planes); while a high-level cleric can commune with something, even then there's no way to know exactly what that something is (Your god? A powerful outsider serving your god? A powerful outsider NOT serving your god? The collective unconscious?). They may guide their priests through dreams and visions - but judging whether a dream is a) a dream, b) a divine vision, or c) a quori manipulation is again a matter of personal faith. And taking the Silver Flame, it's an abstract force, not an anthropomorphic being. To the degree that it wants anything, it wants to abolish evil and protect the innocent - and that's something that different people can interpret in very different ways. One priest may see "protect the innocent" as including the werewolf cub; the other sees "protect the innocent" as requiring that cub to be destroyed, to save those it might later harm. A tragic sacrifice, but it's what the Flame wants -- or so that particular cleric believes.

My basic point is that alignment and religion are both more ambiguous and more a matter of personal faith as opposed to "Thor stopped by the temple yesterday and told me that if I didn't get my act together, he was going to squash me like a bug." Being "good" doesn't always mean that you serve the greater good, and being evil doesn't mean that you can't; it's all a manner in how you apporach your goals, whatever those might be. So one lawful evil watch captain might use the system for the bribes; another might be fiercely dedicated to upholding the law, but do so in a brutal and vicious manner, using torture and bloodshed to accomplish his goals. He's upholding the law, and in protecting the people he is at some level serving the cause of good -- but he's willing to do horrible things to do it, things which someone of good alignment should find horribly repugnant. It's very possible that he takes pleasure in these things -- sure, he'll only torture evil-doers, but he likes to watch them suffer. Not exactly saintly behavior.

This is where detect evil further falls down in Eberron: clerical aura aside, detect evil can't tell the difference between those two watch captains, yet you'll have a very different experience depending on which one you're dealing with. One expects a bribe; the other might chop your hand off for daring to offering him one.

Since the focus here has been on evil, I'll point out that it's just as possible in my mind for good people to do bad things -- it's again a matter of rationale and method. A templar of the Silver Flame may kill a young werewolf not knowing if his victim is "good" or "evil" (unless you're a paladin, you don't have the luxury of a good-o-meter) - but he will do his best to make the death quick and painless. He may balk at torture - but he may allow it to occur, especially if it is done outside his sight. I expect a good character to act with compassion and empathy, while an evil character will lack these traits. But the road to Mabar is paved with good intentions, and someone who tries to help (recovering the holy grail to cure the ill) may actually cause terrible harm (stealing the grail from the kobolds who possessed it, condemning them to plague and slow death). A member of the Aurum might be a good person who donates a great deal of money to charitable causes, who would never personally harm a fly -- but she is willing not to ask questions about how her mercenary agents acquire the things she desires.

But, again, this is all a matter of personal opinion and preference. You may want to handle alignment in an entirely different manner, but this is the sort of thing we had in mind in trying to bring the noir tone into Eberron.
Marshall Stone
11-23-04, 02:11 AM So does this mean that a character who is evil can avoid "detect evil" if he takes a divine class dedicated to a god's alignment? What does this say about the nature of "good" and "evil" in Eberron? I guess I missed this in the ECS.

You know, another thought on the matter, is that it doesn't matter if one could avoid being detected as Evil by someone who can cast a detect evil spell or by a paladin that can do it because actions speak louder that spells or special abilities.
Afterall, besides paladins and clerics, not many other classes/races can "detect evil". You don't need "detect evil' to know that a cleric of the silver flame who is using torture ruthlessly to get information is evil. I would even go so far as to write that a well rolled Sense Motive check could clue one in on an NPC's general inclinations; though not actually confirming the NPC's alignment.

I also agree with MarkB that part2 is the better part for DM's.

The only thing I would do different is allow a player, besides being Called to be a paladin, to also be able to Train to be a Paladin. I mean Yeah, a special-ness (for lack of a better word) of the Paladin class is the idea that they are "Called" to serve a higher purpose by a higher being, I can also see someone who so wants to serve a higher purpose, be a part of something bigger than himself, to train to get that position, earining that Call so to speak. Half Jokingly it's like the character was pestering the higher power saying, "I'm worthy too, let me prove it, give me a chance," and the high power going,"Alright, alright."

Now, it could be argued that that is what a cleric is for, But a Paldin is significantly enough different from a Cleric that aspiring to be a Paladin is arguably a truer mark of ones faith; especially in Eberron, where you can have an evil Cleric of a good deity but a Paladin Must still be Lawful Good!

Also, you could argue that while it's great to be Called to Paladinhood, in a way that character has been giving his faith, how much more meaningful is it for a character to not strive for Clericdom, which again serves a significantly different role, but to seek out the Calling of Paladinhood and achieve it?

Admittedly I'd have it that most Paladins are Called and that would be the basic assumption I would make for a player that wanted to play a Paladin; something which would be included in the player's background. But I would also allow a player to say he was never Called but Trained for the Paladinhood, if he could provide a really good backstory for it.
Geoff Watson
11-23-04, 03:50 AM I found this interesting:

So does this mean that a character who is evil can avoid "detect evil" if he takes a divine class dedicated to a god's alignment? What does this say about the nature of "good" and "evil" in Eberron? I guess I missed this in the ECS.

That won't work.
He'll show up under detect good, but that doesn't stop him from being detected by detect evil.

Geoff.
MarkB
11-23-04, 05:31 AM Indeed. The critical thing here is that in comparison to, say, FR, it's very hard to know what the gods want.
That brought up an interesting thought for me - how does a Phylactery of Faithfulness operate in Eberron?

Phylactery of Faithfulness: This item is a small box containing religious scripture affixed to a leather cord and tied around the forehead. There is no mundane way to determine what function this religious item performs until it is worn. The wearer of a phylactery of faithfulness is aware of any action or item that could adversely affect his alignment and his standing with his deity, including magical effects. He acquires this information prior to performing such an action or becoming associated with such an item if he takes a moment to contemplate the act.
In Eberron the part about affecting one's alignment is still valid, though less relevant (an alignment change won't automatically cause a Cleric to lose his abilities, though it will for a Paladin). But given that the gods' desires, if any, are unknowable, what about the "his standing with his deity" part? In Eberron, would that translate as the Phylactery warning against actions that go against the precepts of the church, or those that go against the wearer's (or maybe the creator's?) personal interpretation of those precepts?

Or would this aspect of the item simply be unworkable in this setting?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 11-22-04, 01:25 PM	Can't say this one was quite as good as the first one. Pretty much just said what we already had figured out on our own (most are experts and adepts, high rank does not equal high level, easy to find shelter in the temples, etc). Some nice clarifications on some matters, nice to have the official word on it anyway. Overall though, the first half was more useful for my campaign than the second.
Kid SixXx 11-22-04, 01:31 PM	Can't say this one was quite as good as the first one. Pretty much just said what we already had figured out on our own (most are experts and adepts, high rank does not equal high level, easy to find shelter in the temples, etc).. I figured pt 2 would be the meat & potatoes portion of the article, as pt 1 was nearly all fluff. Pt 2 will better help people flesh out that random Silver Flame temple that shows up generically in some future adventure.
MarkB 11-22-04, 01:46 PM	I thought it did a very nice job of establishing the ways into the Church for various classes, the responsibilities of each Order, and the various forms that corruption within the Church could take, as well as where PCs could fit in most comfortably. I think part 1 was the better part for players, but part 2 is definitely the better part for DMs - I'd feel much more confident including the Silver Flame as a major aspect of a campaign now than I would have done before reading that article.
polt 11-22-04, 02:04 PM	Well, i have it with this Shard as with most of the others. Whilst reading it, several campaign ideas just kept popping up in my head.
Joni-san 11-22-04, 02:19 PM	Well, it's going to be usefull in the future :)
Takasi 11-22-04, 05:14 PM	I found this interesting: Furthermore, a cleric of a good deity always possesses a good aura, regardless of her personal alignment. So does this mean that a character who is evil can avoid "detect evil" if he takes a divine class dedicated to a god's alignment? What does this say about the nature of "good" and "evil" in Eberron? I guess I missed this in the ECS.
Rinna 11-22-04, 05:15 PM	Personally, I liked the clarification of an 'evil' priest. I've always been confused when it came to alignment and what it exactly meant within the game. For the most part, I rarely ever give any of my characters an alignment and detect good/evil has never come up in game. Probably because we (as characters and as players) make our own determination as to what good and evil really are. However, the article did help in terms of how an evil character could follow a good religion. That's one of the things I love about this setting; the moral ambiguity. Excellent, overall. Rinna
MarkB 11-22-04, 05:33 PM	So does this mean that a character who is evil can avoid "detect evil" if he takes a divine class dedicated to a god's alignment? What does this say about the nature of "good" and "evil" in Eberron? I guess I missed this in the ECS. Well, a character in-game can't just "take a class" in anything - that's a rules concept. What a Cleric is in gameworld-terms is somebody who has genuine, solid faith in a particular deity or divine concept sufficient that his belief can manipulate magical forces and procude divine spells. For an evil character to take such a class, they must genuinely believe in the divinity they're worshipping, and that on some level their actions serve their faith. It's not something someone can just casually pick up in order to dodge Detect Evil spells.
Naudachu 11-22-04, 06:03 PM	Actually this is in the Player's Handbook under the Cleric class "Aura" (at least 3.5...not sure about 3.0). Here's Hellcow's take on it (from Ask Keith Baker... thread). Originally Posted by Hellcow As I read the rules, that is correct. Just by the basic PHB, a LN cleric of Moradin would have an aura of good. It's just that Eberron lets the cleric diverge somewhat farther.
Takasi 11-22-04, 06:04 PM	Dodging detect evil is a rules concept though. Was this in the ECS? I'm at work so I can't reference it.
DwarvinJedi 11-22-04, 06:08 PM	Now I want to play a NG or LG(I get rid of the alignment restrictions for Bards/Barbarians) bard of the Silver FLame, who is a friar or pilgrim.
LazarusX 11-22-04, 06:15 PM	I found this interesting: So does this mean that a character who is evil can avoid "detect evil" if he takes a divine class dedicated to a god's alignment? What does this say about the nature of "good" and "evil" in Eberron? I guess I missed this in the ECS. My answer/example to this question: If you are a Sovereign Host cleric; but are evil aligned; yep...you hide your evil detection. The gods do not affect your alignment restrictions; so be evil, and worship a good diety. How to roleplay this? A) Lawful Evil => you do the deeds that your temple requires you to do; whether it be visiting the hospitals and care centers to tend to the injured/dying; or making sermons to preach about. Underneath it all though; you are really using these opportunities to make connections for drug smuggling/robbery/murder; or just personal wealth gain( Yes, i healed you by the grace of my god...that'll be 5gp please). You do not really plan on hurting your church; but you will not let your church hinder your personal advancement either. B) Neutral Evil => i like to think this evil cleric in a good temple would be more the outright manipulator in the temple itself. Constantly trying to pit cleric vs. cleric; leader vs. subordinate; always playing the game where you come out on top. It's your own little playground until you can attain enough power/wealth to buy up/take over the temple for your own purposes. You want wealth and power, and you aren't bashful about destroying other's lives in the process...yet you realize you need the protection and cover that the temple provides you. You do the deeds required only if someone is watching; and would hurt your reputation in the temple if it was found out you are not a "true believer". C) Chaotic Evil => Honestly....not sure how you'd pull this one off. Anyway; those are my interpretations of evil clerics in good aligned temples. Feel free to argue these points with me; I'm not at all saying i'm 100% right in the alignment descriptions I gave. This is just something I whipped up real quick for examples to assist in roleplaying ideas if someone has the urge to try an evil character in a good temple. And; of course---we all have our own personal opinions on just what makes each alignment differ from another.
Hellcow 11-22-04, 06:26 PM	Dodging detect evil is a rules concept though. Was this in the ECS? I'm at work so I can't reference it. What is in the ECS - on page 35 - is that a cleric's alignment need not remain within one step of her deity. This does not change the Aura class ability of the cleric (PHB 32) which states that "A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deities's alignment." Again, the issue is that in other settings you could not have an evil cleric of a good god, therefore you couldn't have an evil cleric with a good aura. Note that adepts do not possess this class ability. With that said, I am in complete agreement with MarkB here. Especially in Eberron, clerics are people of exceptional faith. Most people simply don't have the faith required to become a cleric, let alone to do it on a whim; that's why most priests are experts or adepts. If a PC wants to do it, I'd want to know if it really fits his character concept. Is he going to actively pray and engage in acts of devotion? Is he going to follow the code of conduct of the religion? Even priests who listen to the dark voice of the Flame still spend most of their time engaging in devotional acts towards the Flame, and they possess strong faith -- even if that faith has been perverted from it's original path (and as noted in the Dragonshard, many evil priests may be devoted to the true Flame). Can it be done? Sure, by the rules. But that assumes that the DM allows a character to do it. In my opinion, multiclassing is always something that a character needs to justify -- and I certainly feel that I have the right as a DM to deny a request. The fighter can't pick up a level of monk one level and a level of wizard the next without some basis for how he learned these remarkable new skills.
Hellcow 11-22-04, 06:37 PM	Feel free to argue these points with me; I'm not at all saying i'm 100% right in the alignment descriptions I gave. I'd just add that in Eberron, the key thing to understand is that an evil person can do good things. In my opinion, an evil person can have noble ideals: it's a question of what he is willing to do to accomplish those ideals. From the dragonshard itself: The most common form of corruption is when zealous devotion causes a priest to set aside mercy and compassion. Such a priest may be a pillar of his community and an admirable man, absolutely dedicated to the Church. But if he must sacrifice the innocent in pursuit of the greater good, he will. He will torture and kill without remorse. He will not glorify these actions, and will not torture needlessly – but he will not shirk from using dark methods to win the battle against evil. Such a priest would have nothing to do with a drug business. He is truly devoted to those care centers. And when he catches the priest who IS using the care centers to fund his drug business, he will slowly and brutally torture him to teach him the error of his ways. He may spend most of the day doing good deeds: but he lacks empathy and compassion. Of course, while this may be "the most common form of corruption", that specifically applies to the Church of the Silver Flame; corrupt priests of Kol Korran are far more likely to focus on greed and graft. And; of course---we all have our own personal opinions on just what makes each alignment differ from another. Absolutely!
Naudachu 11-22-04, 07:31 PM	It seems to me an evil cleric of a good god, has a twisted (or at least unique) view of what his/her god "really" wants. Its probably a person who thinks there's something drastically wrong with the existing church or society in general and seeks the quick and easy "fix"...usually death of whatever's causing the problem. But as we all know from the Jedi ;) that's the path to the dark side. In general, I think people in power want power (and generally more of it) to control some bit of chaos...set things right. When the solution doesn't become readily availble they become obsessed. So, an evil cleric of a good god would probably be a person in some kind of position of authority (or actively seeking it), not so much a missionary (which a PC most likely is), although there are examples of that in history :( . Well, I guess that's my take. In a roundabout way.
Hellcow 11-22-04, 08:01 PM	It seems to me an evil cleric of a good god, has a twisted (or at least unique) view of what his/her god "really" wants. Indeed. The critical thing here is that in comparison to, say, FR, it's very hard to know what the gods want. The gods are mysterious beings who do not manifest on this world (or in any of the known planes); while a high-level cleric can commune with something, even then there's no way to know exactly what that something is (Your god? A powerful outsider serving your god? A powerful outsider NOT serving your god? The collective unconscious?). They may guide their priests through dreams and visions - but judging whether a dream is a) a dream, b) a divine vision, or c) a quori manipulation is again a matter of personal faith. And taking the Silver Flame, it's an abstract force, not an anthropomorphic being. To the degree that it wants anything, it wants to abolish evil and protect the innocent - and that's something that different people can interpret in very different ways. One priest may see "protect the innocent" as including the werewolf cub; the other sees "protect the innocent" as requiring that cub to be destroyed, to save those it might later harm. A tragic sacrifice, but it's what the Flame wants -- or so that particular cleric believes. My basic point is that alignment and religion are both more ambiguous and more a matter of personal faith as opposed to "Thor stopped by the temple yesterday and told me that if I didn't get my act together, he was going to squash me like a bug." Being "good" doesn't always mean that you serve the greater good, and being evil doesn't mean that you can't; it's all a manner in how you apporach your goals, whatever those might be. So one lawful evil watch captain might use the system for the bribes; another might be fiercely dedicated to upholding the law, but do so in a brutal and vicious manner, using torture and bloodshed to accomplish his goals. He's upholding the law, and in protecting the people he is at some level serving the cause of good -- but he's willing to do horrible things to do it, things which someone of good alignment should find horribly repugnant. It's very possible that he takes pleasure in these things -- sure, he'll only torture evil-doers, but he likes to watch them suffer. Not exactly saintly behavior. This is where detect evil further falls down in Eberron: clerical aura aside, detect evil can't tell the difference between those two watch captains, yet you'll have a very different experience depending on which one you're dealing with. One expects a bribe; the other might chop your hand off for daring to offering him one. Since the focus here has been on evil, I'll point out that it's just as possible in my mind for good people to do bad things -- it's again a matter of rationale and method. A templar of the Silver Flame may kill a young werewolf not knowing if his victim is "good" or "evil" (unless you're a paladin, you don't have the luxury of a good-o-meter) - but he will do his best to make the death quick and painless. He may balk at torture - but he may allow it to occur, especially if it is done outside his sight. I expect a good character to act with compassion and empathy, while an evil character will lack these traits. But the road to Mabar is paved with good intentions, and someone who tries to help (recovering the holy grail to cure the ill) may actually cause terrible harm (stealing the grail from the kobolds who possessed it, condemning them to plague and slow death). A member of the Aurum might be a good person who donates a great deal of money to charitable causes, who would never personally harm a fly -- but she is willing not to ask questions about how her mercenary agents acquire the things she desires. But, again, this is all a matter of personal opinion and preference. You may want to handle alignment in an entirely different manner, but this is the sort of thing we had in mind in trying to bring the noir tone into Eberron.
Marshall Stone 11-23-04, 02:11 AM	So does this mean that a character who is evil can avoid "detect evil" if he takes a divine class dedicated to a god's alignment? What does this say about the nature of "good" and "evil" in Eberron? I guess I missed this in the ECS. You know, another thought on the matter, is that it doesn't matter if one could avoid being detected as Evil by someone who can cast a detect evil spell or by a paladin that can do it because actions speak louder that spells or special abilities. Afterall, besides paladins and clerics, not many other classes/races can "detect evil". You don't need "detect evil' to know that a cleric of the silver flame who is using torture ruthlessly to get information is evil. I would even go so far as to write that a well rolled Sense Motive check could clue one in on an NPC's general inclinations; though not actually confirming the NPC's alignment. I also agree with MarkB that part2 is the better part for DM's. The only thing I would do different is allow a player, besides being Called to be a paladin, to also be able to Train to be a Paladin. I mean Yeah, a special-ness (for lack of a better word) of the Paladin class is the idea that they are "Called" to serve a higher purpose by a higher being, I can also see someone who so wants to serve a higher purpose, be a part of something bigger than himself, to train to get that position, earining that Call so to speak. Half Jokingly it's like the character was pestering the higher power saying, "I'm worthy too, let me prove it, give me a chance," and the high power going,"Alright, alright." Now, it could be argued that that is what a cleric is for, But a Paldin is significantly enough different from a Cleric that aspiring to be a Paladin is arguably a truer mark of ones faith; especially in Eberron, where you can have an evil Cleric of a good deity but a Paladin Must still be Lawful Good! Also, you could argue that while it's great to be Called to Paladinhood, in a way that character has been giving his faith, how much more meaningful is it for a character to not strive for Clericdom, which again serves a significantly different role, but to seek out the Calling of Paladinhood and achieve it? Admittedly I'd have it that most Paladins are Called and that would be the basic assumption I would make for a player that wanted to play a Paladin; something which would be included in the player's background. But I would also allow a player to say he was never Called but Trained for the Paladinhood, if he could provide a really good backstory for it.
Geoff Watson 11-23-04, 03:50 AM	I found this interesting: So does this mean that a character who is evil can avoid "detect evil" if he takes a divine class dedicated to a god's alignment? What does this say about the nature of "good" and "evil" in Eberron? I guess I missed this in the ECS. That won't work. He'll show up under detect good, but that doesn't stop him from being detected by detect evil. Geoff.
MarkB 11-23-04, 05:31 AM	Indeed. The critical thing here is that in comparison to, say, FR, it's very hard to know what the gods want. That brought up an interesting thought for me - how does a Phylactery of Faithfulness operate in Eberron? Phylactery of Faithfulness: This item is a small box containing religious scripture affixed to a leather cord and tied around the forehead. There is no mundane way to determine what function this religious item performs until it is worn. The wearer of a phylactery of faithfulness is aware of any action or item that could adversely affect his alignment and his standing with his deity, including magical effects. He acquires this information prior to performing such an action or becoming associated with such an item if he takes a moment to contemplate the act. In Eberron the part about affecting one's alignment is still valid, though less relevant (an alignment change won't automatically cause a Cleric to lose his abilities, though it will for a Paladin). But given that the gods' desires, if any, are unknowable, what about the "his standing with his deity" part? In Eberron, would that translate as the Phylactery warning against actions that go against the precepts of the church, or those that go against the wearer's (or maybe the creator's?) personal interpretation of those precepts? Or would this aspect of the item simply be unworkable in this setting?