Drow of the Underdark in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Drow of the Underdark in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Boukyaku
06-19-07, 01:51 PM Would this book fit well with Eberron? Could the Drow Prestige Classes fit well with the setting, and if not, how could they be altered?
Syltorian
06-19-07, 02:23 PM I haven't got the book, so I cannot really comment. My impression was that it played up the traditional drow role of spider-worshipping, underground-dwelling, all-out villains, which means that the book would be worthless in Eberron. I'd be very interested in a reply to the OP's question, though. If my impression should be proven radically wrong, I'd be happy to hear that, and reconsider my decision not to buy the book.
Boukyaku
06-19-07, 02:26 PM I haven't got the book, so I cannot really comment. My impression was that it played up the traditional drow role of spider-worshipping, underground-dwelling, all-out villains, which means that the book would be worthless in Eberron. I'd be very interested in a reply to the OP's question, though. If my impression should be proven radically wrong, I'd be happy to hear that, and reconsider my decision not to buy the book.

The whole reason worth buying the book is for its prestige classes...Although they do have minor Religion alterations in the book, there's not enough to build a typical Drow from Eberron with these PrC's.
Alex_
06-19-07, 03:02 PM Which Drow Prestige classes are we talking about? I do believe there is a society of Drow with SOME similarities to the "classic" Victorian/Spider Worshippinng/Matriarchal Drow of Forgotten Realms fame. They're called the Umbragen, and they live underground where they worship the Shadow in the form of a Scorpion, and produce many individuals with levels in casting classes like Warlock.
Boukyaku
06-19-07, 03:31 PM Which Drow Prestige classes are we talking about? I do believe there is a society of Drow with SOME similarities to the "classic" Victorian/Spider Worshippinng/Matriarchal Drow of Forgotten Realms fame. They're called the Umbragen, and they live underground where they worship the Shadow in the form of a Scorpion, and produce many individuals with levels in casting classes like Warlock.

Well, fortunately, the Arachnomancer, and unfortunately, the Demonbinder. I am fidgeting between the 2.
mahavira
06-19-07, 07:12 PM My experience is that like Lords of Madness and the Fiendish Codices, DotU is next to valueless for an Eberron campaign. The feats and prestiges classes can be salvaged, but only by stripping them of any connection to Drow (with the exception of the feats which boost or modify the drow spell like abilities). This is a shame, because it's an excellent book (as indeed are LoM and FCI and II). While not being generic is a strength of Eberron, it is also an inconvenience.
Sarlax
06-19-07, 11:02 PM My experience is that like Lords of Madness...
How so? Only the flayers and beholders have a prominently different flavor in Eberron than they do in Lords of Madness. The aboleth, grell, neogi, and tsochar don't have big roles in the setting, so the written material for them works just fine.
Teron Gorefiend
06-19-07, 11:31 PM Which Drow Prestige classes are we talking about? I do believe there is a society of Drow with SOME similarities to the "classic" Victorian/Spider Worshippinng/Matriarchal Drow of Forgotten Realms fame. They're called the Umbragen, and they live underground where they worship the Shadow in the form of a Scorpion, and produce many individuals with levels in casting classes like Warlock.
It's the above-ground drow (well, some of them) who worship scorpions, and the ill-conceived scorpion god is an aspect of the Mockery. The Umbragen are quite unlike the traditional drow: they're generally Lawful Evil, very disciplined and loyal to each other (albeit mostly out of pragmatism), they make no significant distinction between the sexes and, far from being a dominant presence in Khyber, they're a small culture of grim survivors who only stay underground because they're more scared of the unknown surface then they are of the aberration hordes that constantly besiege their enclaves. Many of them willingly give up their souls to a force they call the Umbra (possibly the Shadow) in exchange for darkness-themed magical powers (represented by racial feats and warlock, spellcaster and variant soulknife levels) to protect their people.

Back to the real topic: as likely as not, the prestige classes from DotU work better with other races in Eberron.
mahavira
06-20-07, 12:03 AM How so? Only the flayers and beholders have a prominently different flavor in Eberron than they do in Lords of Madness. The aboleth, grell, neogi, and tsochar don't have big roles in the setting, so the written material for them works just fine.

The Grell chapter is the only part of the book I didn't like, to be honest. I never really understood why they warranted a chapter of their own. 'they're nomadic hunters that view all other life as food' could have just gone in a monster manual entry.

The description of the Eberron cosmology doesn't seem to support other worlds (certainly that seems to be the position of Hellcow, and while one can certainly houserule that, it just doesn't seem to fit well). This requires some adjustment of Grell, Neogi and Tsochar.

The main problem I have though is that with the Daelkir invasion posited as the source of abberrations in Eberron, unrelated origins for the other abberrations in LoM feel like square pegs in round holes. In a regular world where there isn't some unifying theme for aberrations the different origins make sense and are cool. With 85% of abberations being Daelkir minions from Xoriat or created by the Daelkir in Eberron, and a good chunk of the rest being mournland mutants, it just doesn't fly for me. Perhaps it's just a matter of taste, I just find the fluff incompatible with Eberron's flavor and cosmology.
Nived
06-20-07, 12:27 AM You know maybe you should read Keith's Eberron Expanded article on Lords of Madness first.

Eberron is not the first world that the daelkyr have attacked. It is possible that the mind flayers were created when the daelkyr destroyed the native world of the gith races. If so, the githzerai and githyanki are descendants of those few survivors who fled to Kythri and the Astral Plane, while the mind flayers are descended from survivors of the progenitor race who were twisted in the same manner as the dolgaunts and dolgrims.

So Eberron's cosmology certainly can support other worlds existing out there somewhere.
mahavira
06-20-07, 01:44 AM You know maybe you should read Keith's Eberron Expanded article on Lords of Madness first.

So Eberron's cosmology certainly can support other worlds existing out there somewhere.

I've read the article. It still places the Daelkir front and centre of otherworldly abberrations. For example, it suggests Tsochari be creations of the Daelkir that envy Illithids' position as chief minions. Looking at the LoM info on tsochari, all I'm really left with is a stat block, the rest is subsumed by the Daelkir angle.

Also, the other worlds referred to in LoM are mostly other planets rather than parallel primes, and in some ancient Ask Keith Baker thread he specifically said he didn't like the idea of other worlds within the same prime.

The best idea in the Eberron expanded was to have the Aboleth be the aquatic equivalent of Rakshasa from teh Age of Demons, but even that undermines the flavor of the LoM description because while they're pretty old, they're contemporaries of Rakshasa, dragons and coatl rather than the sole remnants of an ancient and alien era.

Ultimately this is perhaps just a matter of taste. I like Eberron. I like LoM. Likewise, I like both chocolate and barbeque ribs, but don't eat them together.
ArcTan
06-20-07, 03:01 AM My experience is that like Lords of Madness and the Fiendish Codices, DotU is next to valueless for an Eberron campaign. The feats and prestiges classes can be salvaged, but only by stripping them of any connection to Drow (with the exception of the feats which boost or modify the drow spell like abilities). This is a shame, because it's an excellent book (as indeed are LoM and FCI and II). While not being generic is a strength of Eberron, it is also an inconvenience.

Keith Baker did an Eberron Expanded for Lords of Madness. Though you have to ignore a lot of the fluff, most of the crunch works *fine* for an Eberron campaign. The mind flayers and beholders may have a different origin in Eberron, but their personality and behavior really need not change much at al, save that the daelkyr as present as a kind of universal god for all these races.

Haven't read Drow of the Underdark, though I think most of the stuff about the drow in the Underdark in FR really doesn't work well for Eberron, mainly because it *feels* setting-specific -- it's an FR touchstone the way Warforged and the Lightning Rail are an Eberron touchstone, and it feels wrong to try to transplant them elsewhere.
ArcTan
06-20-07, 03:03 AM The Grell chapter is the only part of the book I didn't like, to be honest. I never really understood why they warranted a chapter of their own. 'they're nomadic hunters that view all other life as food' could have just gone in a monster manual entry.

The description of the Eberron cosmology doesn't seem to support other worlds (certainly that seems to be the position of Hellcow, and while one can certainly houserule that, it just doesn't seem to fit well). This requires some adjustment of Grell, Neogi and Tsochar.

The only ones who really suffer from this are the Neogi. I find Keith's halfhearted-sounding "the Neogi are, like, mutant Dwarves... somehow" to be one of his biggest missteps yet (in my opinion, anyway).

For me, either the Neogi are extraterrestrial invaders or they're nothing.
Setherial
06-20-07, 06:51 AM It's not a bad book but it's funny how they need to add Monster X in Eberron to monster descriptions even if they just don't make sense.

I was reading the book a while back and I was going over the description of a spider construct, forgot the name but it was rather cool. A critter I see myself using. Anyway the spider had as special abilities its venom and a web attack of some kind. Under "Bla Spiders in Eberron" they simply put, replace the spider with a scorpeon. That's a great way to waste space in a book. It's totally useless and they don't even attempt to go into the web attack complication which made the spider cool in the first place.
mahavira
06-20-07, 10:30 AM Back to the actual topic...

The demonbinder PrC needs a bit of work to be adapted to Eberron. The demons in the setting don't seem very interested in the prime material, and aren't even from the same place. My thought was this: some sort of apocalypse cult that views all demons everywhere as part of a greater trend towards chaos and the dissolution of everything that is. Essentially, it looks at the universe through a lense of creator-preserver-destroyer (like some kinds of hinduism with brahma, vishnu and shiva), and they think the universe has entered the destruction part of the cycle. Such a cult might have started among Cyran refugees who think the Mourning was the beginning of the end of the world, and want to hurry it along for everyone else (whether because they think they'll personally benefit or from a twisted desire to destroy the 'corrupt world' so the creation portion of the cycle can create a new and better world).

Most Eberron drow don't seem to fetishize scorpions in quite the same way that generic drow fetishize spiders, but there's no reason a splinter sect couldn't exist, so the Arachnomancer isn't a huge problem. Alternately, it could be a class for arcanists who believe in the Child of Winter druidic tradition.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Boukyaku 06-19-07, 01:51 PM	Would this book fit well with Eberron? Could the Drow Prestige Classes fit well with the setting, and if not, how could they be altered?
Syltorian 06-19-07, 02:23 PM	I haven't got the book, so I cannot really comment. My impression was that it played up the traditional drow role of spider-worshipping, underground-dwelling, all-out villains, which means that the book would be worthless in Eberron. I'd be very interested in a reply to the OP's question, though. If my impression should be proven radically wrong, I'd be happy to hear that, and reconsider my decision not to buy the book.
Boukyaku 06-19-07, 02:26 PM	I haven't got the book, so I cannot really comment. My impression was that it played up the traditional drow role of spider-worshipping, underground-dwelling, all-out villains, which means that the book would be worthless in Eberron. I'd be very interested in a reply to the OP's question, though. If my impression should be proven radically wrong, I'd be happy to hear that, and reconsider my decision not to buy the book. The whole reason worth buying the book is for its prestige classes...Although they do have minor Religion alterations in the book, there's not enough to build a typical Drow from Eberron with these PrC's.
Alex_ 06-19-07, 03:02 PM	Which Drow Prestige classes are we talking about? I do believe there is a society of Drow with SOME similarities to the "classic" Victorian/Spider Worshippinng/Matriarchal Drow of Forgotten Realms fame. They're called the Umbragen, and they live underground where they worship the Shadow in the form of a Scorpion, and produce many individuals with levels in casting classes like Warlock.
Boukyaku 06-19-07, 03:31 PM	Which Drow Prestige classes are we talking about? I do believe there is a society of Drow with SOME similarities to the "classic" Victorian/Spider Worshippinng/Matriarchal Drow of Forgotten Realms fame. They're called the Umbragen, and they live underground where they worship the Shadow in the form of a Scorpion, and produce many individuals with levels in casting classes like Warlock. Well, fortunately, the Arachnomancer, and unfortunately, the Demonbinder. I am fidgeting between the 2.
mahavira 06-19-07, 07:12 PM	My experience is that like Lords of Madness and the Fiendish Codices, DotU is next to valueless for an Eberron campaign. The feats and prestiges classes can be salvaged, but only by stripping them of any connection to Drow (with the exception of the feats which boost or modify the drow spell like abilities). This is a shame, because it's an excellent book (as indeed are LoM and FCI and II). While not being generic is a strength of Eberron, it is also an inconvenience.
Sarlax 06-19-07, 11:02 PM	My experience is that like Lords of Madness... How so? Only the flayers and beholders have a prominently different flavor in Eberron than they do in Lords of Madness. The aboleth, grell, neogi, and tsochar don't have big roles in the setting, so the written material for them works just fine.
Teron Gorefiend 06-19-07, 11:31 PM	Which Drow Prestige classes are we talking about? I do believe there is a society of Drow with SOME similarities to the "classic" Victorian/Spider Worshippinng/Matriarchal Drow of Forgotten Realms fame. They're called the Umbragen, and they live underground where they worship the Shadow in the form of a Scorpion, and produce many individuals with levels in casting classes like Warlock. It's the above-ground drow (well, some of them) who worship scorpions, and the ill-conceived scorpion god is an aspect of the Mockery. The Umbragen are quite unlike the traditional drow: they're generally Lawful Evil, very disciplined and loyal to each other (albeit mostly out of pragmatism), they make no significant distinction between the sexes and, far from being a dominant presence in Khyber, they're a small culture of grim survivors who only stay underground because they're more scared of the unknown surface then they are of the aberration hordes that constantly besiege their enclaves. Many of them willingly give up their souls to a force they call the Umbra (possibly the Shadow) in exchange for darkness-themed magical powers (represented by racial feats and warlock, spellcaster and variant soulknife levels) to protect their people. Back to the real topic: as likely as not, the prestige classes from DotU work better with other races in Eberron.
mahavira 06-20-07, 12:03 AM	How so? Only the flayers and beholders have a prominently different flavor in Eberron than they do in Lords of Madness. The aboleth, grell, neogi, and tsochar don't have big roles in the setting, so the written material for them works just fine. The Grell chapter is the only part of the book I didn't like, to be honest. I never really understood why they warranted a chapter of their own. 'they're nomadic hunters that view all other life as food' could have just gone in a monster manual entry. The description of the Eberron cosmology doesn't seem to support other worlds (certainly that seems to be the position of Hellcow, and while one can certainly houserule that, it just doesn't seem to fit well). This requires some adjustment of Grell, Neogi and Tsochar. The main problem I have though is that with the Daelkir invasion posited as the source of abberrations in Eberron, unrelated origins for the other abberrations in LoM feel like square pegs in round holes. In a regular world where there isn't some unifying theme for aberrations the different origins make sense and are cool. With 85% of abberations being Daelkir minions from Xoriat or created by the Daelkir in Eberron, and a good chunk of the rest being mournland mutants, it just doesn't fly for me. Perhaps it's just a matter of taste, I just find the fluff incompatible with Eberron's flavor and cosmology.
Nived 06-20-07, 12:27 AM	You know maybe you should read Keith's Eberron Expanded article on Lords of Madness first. Eberron is not the first world that the daelkyr have attacked. It is possible that the mind flayers were created when the daelkyr destroyed the native world of the gith races. If so, the githzerai and githyanki are descendants of those few survivors who fled to Kythri and the Astral Plane, while the mind flayers are descended from survivors of the progenitor race who were twisted in the same manner as the dolgaunts and dolgrims. So Eberron's cosmology certainly can support other worlds existing out there somewhere.
mahavira 06-20-07, 01:44 AM	You know maybe you should read Keith's Eberron Expanded article on Lords of Madness first. So Eberron's cosmology certainly can support other worlds existing out there somewhere. I've read the article. It still places the Daelkir front and centre of otherworldly abberrations. For example, it suggests Tsochari be creations of the Daelkir that envy Illithids' position as chief minions. Looking at the LoM info on tsochari, all I'm really left with is a stat block, the rest is subsumed by the Daelkir angle. Also, the other worlds referred to in LoM are mostly other planets rather than parallel primes, and in some ancient Ask Keith Baker thread he specifically said he didn't like the idea of other worlds within the same prime. The best idea in the Eberron expanded was to have the Aboleth be the aquatic equivalent of Rakshasa from teh Age of Demons, but even that undermines the flavor of the LoM description because while they're pretty old, they're contemporaries of Rakshasa, dragons and coatl rather than the sole remnants of an ancient and alien era. Ultimately this is perhaps just a matter of taste. I like Eberron. I like LoM. Likewise, I like both chocolate and barbeque ribs, but don't eat them together.
ArcTan 06-20-07, 03:01 AM	My experience is that like Lords of Madness and the Fiendish Codices, DotU is next to valueless for an Eberron campaign. The feats and prestiges classes can be salvaged, but only by stripping them of any connection to Drow (with the exception of the feats which boost or modify the drow spell like abilities). This is a shame, because it's an excellent book (as indeed are LoM and FCI and II). While not being generic is a strength of Eberron, it is also an inconvenience. Keith Baker did an Eberron Expanded for Lords of Madness. Though you have to ignore a lot of the fluff, most of the crunch works fine for an Eberron campaign. The mind flayers and beholders may have a different origin in Eberron, but their personality and behavior really need not change much at al, save that the daelkyr as present as a kind of universal god for all these races. Haven't read Drow of the Underdark, though I think most of the stuff about the drow in the Underdark in FR really doesn't work well for Eberron, mainly because it feels setting-specific -- it's an FR touchstone the way Warforged and the Lightning Rail are an Eberron touchstone, and it feels wrong to try to transplant them elsewhere.
ArcTan 06-20-07, 03:03 AM	The Grell chapter is the only part of the book I didn't like, to be honest. I never really understood why they warranted a chapter of their own. 'they're nomadic hunters that view all other life as food' could have just gone in a monster manual entry. The description of the Eberron cosmology doesn't seem to support other worlds (certainly that seems to be the position of Hellcow, and while one can certainly houserule that, it just doesn't seem to fit well). This requires some adjustment of Grell, Neogi and Tsochar. The only ones who really suffer from this are the Neogi. I find Keith's halfhearted-sounding "the Neogi are, like, mutant Dwarves... somehow" to be one of his biggest missteps yet (in my opinion, anyway). For me, either the Neogi are extraterrestrial invaders or they're nothing.
Setherial 06-20-07, 06:51 AM	It's not a bad book but it's funny how they need to add Monster X in Eberron to monster descriptions even if they just don't make sense. I was reading the book a while back and I was going over the description of a spider construct, forgot the name but it was rather cool. A critter I see myself using. Anyway the spider had as special abilities its venom and a web attack of some kind. Under "Bla Spiders in Eberron" they simply put, replace the spider with a scorpeon. That's a great way to waste space in a book. It's totally useless and they don't even attempt to go into the web attack complication which made the spider cool in the first place.
mahavira 06-20-07, 10:30 AM	Back to the actual topic... The demonbinder PrC needs a bit of work to be adapted to Eberron. The demons in the setting don't seem very interested in the prime material, and aren't even from the same place. My thought was this: some sort of apocalypse cult that views all demons everywhere as part of a greater trend towards chaos and the dissolution of everything that is. Essentially, it looks at the universe through a lense of creator-preserver-destroyer (like some kinds of hinduism with brahma, vishnu and shiva), and they think the universe has entered the destruction part of the cycle. Such a cult might have started among Cyran refugees who think the Mourning was the beginning of the end of the world, and want to hurry it along for everyone else (whether because they think they'll personally benefit or from a twisted desire to destroy the 'corrupt world' so the creation portion of the cycle can create a new and better world). Most Eberron drow don't seem to fetishize scorpions in quite the same way that generic drow fetishize spiders, but there's no reason a splinter sect couldn't exist, so the Arachnomancer isn't a huge problem. Alternately, it could be a class for arcanists who believe in the Child of Winter druidic tradition.