Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tek 10-24-05, 01:41 AM	Excellent as usual, I think. I personally liked, "While Races of Eberron states that warforged druids maintain armor bonuses and racial immunities in animal form, this is incorrect." Way to go! The whole 'keep the dragonmark' while shifting is cool, but the thing I found the most intriguing was the Reincarnation in Eberron sidebar. Mainly, this: "A character who possesses a dragonmark will keep his dragonmark even in his new form." About a thousand character ideas swam through my head when I read this. A reincarnated human as a shifter with a dragonmark! Cool! heh. Good work, Keith.
zambuka 10-24-05, 02:06 AM	Excellent as usual, I think. I personally liked, "While Races of Eberron states that warforged druids maintain armor bonuses and racial immunities in animal form, this is incorrect." Way to go! It also suggests strongly that the marks are not as strongly tied to race as many would think. This suggests that the dragon mark is tied more closely to a person's spirit (or soul or life force or mojo or whatever mystical mumbo jumbo you want to call it). It also suggests, because you can't pass on your mark to offspring in your new race, that the souls for each race are different somehow.
Sturm Jaeger 10-24-05, 02:08 AM	I really liked the Followers of the Broken Path sect. It's a totally logical idea for a new druid sect, one devoted to fixing the Mournland. Making them an all-Warforged sect is just icing on the cake, though I can forsee druids of other races wanting to join, as they want to help heal that shattered land.
Tek 10-24-05, 02:17 AM	Indeed, the Followers of the Broken Path are definetly a great idea.
Shadowalk Nimblefeet 10-24-05, 02:21 AM	While helpful, this one was a little too technical for me and wasn't anything I couldn't find on the boards or hadn't already thought of myself. Still, I am thankful for it. The first in the Druid series was fantastic, and the last one is the one I've been looking forward to the most. I'm very eager to see what Hellcow has done with Valenar druids especially! I wonder if we'll get anything on kalashtar or Aereni druid paths as well?
Thwyvylyn 10-24-05, 02:35 AM	Magnificent as always, thanks Hellcow. Here :cookie:
Splendide 10-24-05, 02:37 AM	Hell of a lot more crunch than usual there.
MarkB 10-24-05, 03:49 AM	And excellent crunch it is, too - clears up just about all the common questions about Druids in Eberron. This is fairly typical of multi-part Dragonshards articles - first fluff, then crunch. I'll look forward to the next one.
Bluebrush 10-24-05, 05:01 AM	While helpful, this one was a little too technical for me and wasn't anything I couldn't find on the boards or hadn't already thought of myself. True to an extent, there is stuff I hadn't seen before, but most of it had come up on the boards. Though Dragonshards are probably more widely read than the message boards, since many will not have the time or stomach for such things.
Euangelion 10-24-05, 07:18 AM	Did anyone else catch that little aside poke at 5Nations regarding the magebred animals in the Breland chapter being available as animal companions? :D (I've already posted the appropriate quotes in the inconsistencies thread.)
MysticTheurge 10-24-05, 08:05 AM	I particularly like the new reincarnation table. While I had thought about making a new one to include changelings and shifters, I never would've thought to increase the chance of coming back as a shifter or an orc, but now that it's there it makes perfect sense.
Aubri 10-24-05, 10:59 AM	While Races of Eberron states that warforged druids maintain armor bonuses and racial immunities in animal form, this is incorrect. Woo! You tell 'em, Keith! :D
Hellcow 10-24-05, 11:17 AM	True to an extent, there is stuff I hadn't seen before, but most of it had come up on the boards. Certainly true - if you check my last post on the "Yay New Dragonshard!" thread you'll see that I posted a warning about just this. The critical thing is that this is that when I post on the boards, it's just my opinion. Whereas this - including the ROE contradiction - has been approved by the WotC design team. It makes it more official than the AKB thread, and I wanted to lay some of these issues to rest. As for Five Nations and magebred animal companions, apparently there was once a feat that made this possible; the feat was pulled and the reference wasn't. So you may see something in the future that lets the Brelish ranger have his magebred bear - but unless there is a feat or class feature that allows it, the ECS rule (no magebred companions!) takes precedence.
Joni-san 10-24-05, 11:48 AM	Another excellent Dragonshard, not as focused on one topic as the earlier but good nonetheless :clap:
makeshiftwings 10-24-05, 12:01 PM	Always good to see Keith lay down the law :) Now, if only we could get him to do it BEFORE the books go to print... ;)
polt 10-24-05, 12:55 PM	I liked it. Except for the part about the dragonmarked following the spirit, I don't know if I agree with that.
MarkB 10-24-05, 01:00 PM	I liked it. Except for the part about the dragonmarked following the spirit, I don't know if I agree with that. It's by far the best ruling in game-mchanics terms - no need to lose or re-pick feats if your dragonmarked character is reincarnated. And I think anything which emphasises that dragonmarks are more - and different - than some genetically inherited trait is a good thing.
Edymnion 10-24-05, 01:51 PM	While Races of Eberron states that warforged druids maintain armor bonuses and racial immunities in animal form, this is incorrect.Its so nice to hear that, I just want to hear it again!While Races of Eberron states that warforged druids maintain armor bonuses and racial immunities in animal form, this is incorrect.While Races of Eberron states that warforged druids maintain armor bonuses and racial immunities in animal form, this is incorrect.I do so love it when RoE gets big holes shot into it! Come on Keith, hurry up and reload! :D
Zedium 10-24-05, 02:39 PM	*Hands Keith a shotgun and hums Cows with Guns* Anyway, great shard, nice crunch. Indeed I agree with Polt that the dragonmark following the soul is a bit iffy, but on the other side, how many times would a dragonmarked character get resurrected? And on top of that, Reincarnation is a weird spell to begin with especially if a character gains a monster with bonus HD or used to be a human and changed into a different race. Yay free stat adjustments and free skillpoints. Still, neat and I like the idea of a dragonmarked Druid of Vadalis with this huge mark on his body even in animal shape. I wonder if this also means that if someone is targetted by polymorph he keeps the mark.
Sithis 10-24-05, 03:37 PM	If the mark follows the soul, why is Erandis d'Vol's mark inactive? There are some costs to death and rebirth. A warforged will lose his armored plating, a shifter will lose access to his shifter feats, I'd expect a dragonmarked character to lose access to his "racial" feat as well.
Bluebrush 10-24-05, 03:53 PM	If the mark follows the soul, why is Erandis d'Vol's mark inactive?She's just a tad dead old boy. So it's likely that you need to be alive for your mark to work.
Hellcow 10-24-05, 04:00 PM	If the mark follows the soul, why is Erandis d'Vol's mark inactive? Because she's undead. It has followed her soul... into a dead body, which cannot support it. If she were reincarnated, her mark might be restored. HOWEVER, *I* believe that Erandis' mark is a special case on multiple levels: that it possesses greater power than the normal Mark of Death because of her half-dragon nature... that in essence, her form is a lens for the power of the mark, which is why the dragons and elves both took such extreme measures when they discovered what was going on. The fundamental idea behind Erandis, on the development team, is that her parents did not possess the power to raise her from the dead - but they could turn her into a lich, and did. However, at least in her case, she is trapped in this state. She can't be raised anymore; she's bound to her undead form, for better or for worse. And even if she could somehow be reincarnated, she represents the pinnacle of complex arcane breeding programs - and that work would be lost, even if she kept the base mark. Now you may say "But according to book X, a lich can be resurrected under Y circumstances..." to which I can only say that according the the development team, it won't work for Erandis... if she could restore her body to life, she'd have done it. As for keeping the mark in new forms (and yes, ditto for polymorph), this wasn't my decision: this is something I discussed with Bill Slavicsek, Chris Perkins, and the other people on the Eberron development team. I believe that Bill's analogy was to the dragon in humanoid form. When polymorphed, a creature's type and subtype change... but an outsider or a dragon still creates a half-celestial or half-dragon when it sires a child in humanoid form. The mystical essence of the character transcends form, and the dragonmark is a part of that. Obviously, there is an initial matrix: the Mark of Making only bonds with the human soul, even if that soul can later inhabit an animal body. But the mark-sticks-with-character idea is something coming down from the big brains at WotC, and not just a harebrained idea of mine that they didn't notice.
ekomega 10-24-05, 05:45 PM	Am I the only one troubled by the Reincarnation table? The probability of being reincarnated with a Level Adjustment went up significantly. I can understand why the chances of returning as a bugbear are greater, since there's more bugbears in Eberron, but a bugbear is an LA+1 race and has huge stat modifiers. And since bugbears have rights from the Treaty of Thronehold, it's not like coming back as a Lizardfolk or Gnoll, where anyone can kill you for looking at them cross-eyed. I still think the chance of coming back as a creature with an LA, since that LA offsets the penalty of being Reincarnated, should be very slim. There's a 5% chance of coming back as a Bugbear (3%) or Gnoll (2%) in Eberron, which is huge, compared to the 2% in the PHB Table (1% Bugbear, 1% Gnoll). For Lizardfolk, also an LA+1, went from 1% in the PHB to 5% in Eberron. That's 3.333 times as likely to come back as something with a LA+1. I would argue that an Orc also counts as an LA+1 in this case, since the penalties to INT, WIS, and CHA are all negated by Reincarnation. And the chance of that went from 4% in the PHB to 10% in Eberron. That makes it about 3x as likely overall (and 20%, or 1/5, of the time!) to be reincarnated as those 4 races. I think that is huge. Especially in Eberron where Resurrection is less of an option, and Reincarnation more of an option. Otherwise, I liked the dragonshard. But this part bothered me.
Sithis 10-24-05, 06:10 PM	But the mark-sticks-with-character idea is something coming down from the big brains at WotC, and not just a harebrained idea of mine that they didn't notice. Oh, I don't think it's a bad idea, it's just not to my liking. That plus the reincarnation table in this article sort of leads to some cheesing of the system. I've got a great concept for a Cannith artificer who was reincarnated as an orc. My character will be a level down from the party, but he's got +4 strength, no negatives, an extra feat, and an extra skill point per level before now. It's a surprising break from the "no, you can't get a dragonmark on anything but the race it's meant to be on".
Raster 10-24-05, 07:15 PM	It's a surprising break from the "no, you can't get a dragonmark on anything but the race it's meant to be on". Although, they already broke that barrier with the Cataclysm Mage from the explorer's handbook.
MarkB 10-24-05, 07:47 PM	Now you may say "But according to book X, a lich can be resurrected under Y circumstances..." to which I can only say that according the the development team, it won't work for Erandis... if she could restore her body to life, she'd have done it. Hmm, I just thought of a neat sub-plot for an Eberron game - Erandis d'Vol has managed to get herself resurrected, with her powerful dragonmark still intact, but she's still masquerading as a lich because her entire religion would lynch her for hypocrisy if they found out she'd rejected the pinnacle of undead existence. She's now desperately trying to engineer a way to re-start the Line of Vol without giving away her newfound lease of life.
Darrek 10-24-05, 08:53 PM	Am I the only one who cannot 'download this article' in pdf form like all the previous ones? My archive has now become incomplete!!!!
Edymnion 10-24-05, 09:07 PM	Ditto, I already have a thread on it over in the RPG Boards Business forum.
Hellcow 10-24-05, 09:08 PM	That plus the reincarnation table in this article sort of leads to some cheesing of the system. Fair enough. I would say that the problem is that I'm not a power gamer, so I don't inherently design with power-gamers in mind. I gave orcs a greater weight on the table because of their strong historical tie to the druidic tradition; it didn't occur to me that people would start trying to kill their characters and play reincarnation poker hoping to get better stats, though now you've mentioned it I can certainly see it happening. With that said, I did establish that druids will only rarely perform the ritual, out of respect for the natural cycle of life. So you might get a spin at it, but if you end up as a kobold, the druid's not going to go along with your committing suicide so you can get another chance at orcdom. Ultimately, in my Eberron campaign reincarnation is something that is rare and unusual - reserved for "champions who die truly unjust deaths or fall while performing a great service to the wild." As such it may have been centuries since the situation has last come up; the enclaves aren't packed with cross-marked heirs. Furthermore, while you may still possess the mark, that doesn't mean the house will want anything to do with you; giving their dislike of mixed marks, how do you think Cannith will respond to an orc with the mark? At the very least, you're an embarassment to be hidden away. Though that in itself is a fun idea: Merrix d'Cannith was reincarnated as an orc, and has been concealing it through magical means for the last three years. Especially since he can't pass on the mark, his position in the house and the reputation of his bloodline would be jeopardized if the truth comes to light... but how long can he maintain the secret? In any case, it's certainly something you can choose to ignore - but it is the ruling from on high.
Just another user 10-25-05, 03:20 AM	Hellcow what you say is true with druids, and religion in general, it is easy to keep things in check, but things start to broke down when you insert artificers in the equation all you need is a 9th level artificer to start crank up scrolls of reincarnation,a nd if I was a lord of the houses (especially a old lord of the Houses) i'll pay artificers any price to have them. I mean you are a 90 years old human and *puff* you become a young adult, well, whatever you become and when your new body get old you can do it again, and again, and again. You are essentially immortal and keep your dragonmark. Honestly, this is something that should be addressed.
Illvillainy 10-25-05, 05:42 AM	Good grief, there's already one solution to players abusing the system: The DM's ability to say 'No'.
Isran_Imrador 10-25-05, 07:15 AM	Great shard. want more on the lyrandar druids :-) and liked the new warfoged path... So their mark keep on wooking after they have been reincarnated to something else?
Just another user 10-25-05, 07:46 AM	Good grief, there's already one solution to players abusing the system: The DM's ability to say 'No'. first, I wasn't talking about players abusing the system, I was talking about building a coherent world, in a wolrd where things works like in Eberron it only make sense that the rich and powerful use artificer-made reincarnation spells to stay young forever, (they evern work better that resurrection because with resurrection you can still die of old age.) second that ability works better if you can give a godnammed reason about why "No"? So, why an artificer can recreate any other spell, druidic or not, but they can't do it with Reincarnation? (and "because I said so" it is not really a valid reason)
Joni-san 10-25-05, 08:33 AM	The thing is, how well-known is Reincarnate? An artificer may not be aware of the spell. The odds for an avarege rich person knowing about it, even less so. If you don't know about it odds are you can't do it.
Just another user 10-25-05, 08:37 AM	The thing is, how well-known is Reincarnate? An artificer may not be aware of the spell. The odds for an avarege rich person even less. If you don't know about it odds are you can't do it. An aritficer needs to be familiar with a spell to recreate it? And an average rich (and old) person will pay a number of experts to find a way to not to die and after a while someone will come to tell him "studying the druidic traditions of the eldeen reaches we found legends about..." and he will say "get me the best artificer of Sharn"
Splendide 10-25-05, 09:50 AM	And the artificer says "OK sir, I've come up with a plan, but uh...I'll have to kill you first." "Kill me?" "Well, uh, yes. Kill you. It wouldn't be for long, and I'm nearly certain that I can bring you back. Fairly sure, anyway. The gods might intervene, but well, this is artifice...I wouldn't expect that we couldn't bring you back." "Oh." "Maybe even as a human, if we all get lucky. Probably an orc though. Maybe a bugbear." "...right." "I hear Dolurrh isn't as bad to visit as the priests say." "You know, this sounds interesting, I'd like to think about it, thank you for your time, guards please see this man out." "...but...but... I've been working on death machines, I've nearly got them killing hamsters painlessly now! Well, no audible pain anyway." "Yes, yes. Goodbye."
Aubri 10-25-05, 10:14 AM	And since bugbears have rights from the Treaty of Thronehold, it's not like coming back as a Lizardfolk or Gnoll, where anyone can kill you for looking at them cross-eyed. Technically, all law-abiding sentients should have protection under Thronehold. Dodging death by getting Reincarnated before you get too old is probably a good way to attract Inevitables... granted, Reincarnation might be 'natural' enough, but... I dunno. Anyway. Once our party Fighter got reincarnated as a badger. :) (Obviously, this was using 3.0 Reincarnate, when Badger was on the list...)
Hellcow 10-25-05, 12:13 PM	Dodging death by getting Reincarnated before you get too old is probably a good way to attract Inevitables... Good point. I do believe that any form of return from death carries the risk of Inevitable wrath, as I've posted elsewhere: yes, House Jorasco has altars of resurrection, but they're going to use augury before they use them to make sure bringing you back won't get the enclave leveled by angry maruts. If someone has an unfinished destiny in the world, then you're on safe ground bringing them back: but if their time truly has come, you're risking the inevitables regardless of the method you use. Obviously, this is a DM decision; the key is that PCs generally have a destiny, because they are PCs. But for other folks, money isn't the only obstacle. (Obviously, this was using 3.0 Reincarnate, when Badger was on the list...) Yes... One of my early pieces for Atlas Games involved a secret society formed of awakened animals and people reincarnated into animal form. Certainly, another wacky approach would be to say that when an artificer creates a scroll it uses the 3.0 table; a king might be a little more reluctant if he's likely to come back as a boar.
Aubri 10-25-05, 12:26 PM	Hehe! Sneaky. :) I would generally not sic Inevitables on people just for one infraction, but I've had an idea for a while of a circle of druids who commit ritual suicide when they're approaching old age and get reincarnated. Do that a few times, and then I'd start worrying about Maruts. Maybe. The flipside of that is that Reincarnation, as the name suggests, gives you a new body and resets your life counter; that might be enough to satisfy the Inevitables, or at least fly under their radar.
Siran Dunmorgan 10-25-05, 12:35 PM	Yes... One of my early pieces for Atlas Games involved a secret society formed of awakened animals and people reincarnated into animal form.Hellcow used to write furries? :D Certainly, another wacky approach would be to say that when an artificer creates a scroll it uses the 3.0 table; a king might be a little more reluctant if he's likely to come back as a boar.Now that inspires an interesting idea: adjust the tables so that the reincarnated character is more likely to come back as their totem/heraldic animal, e.g. the king of Breland might come back as a bear, the king of Karrnath might come back as a wolf, the Patriarch of Cannith might come back as a gorgon... —Siran Dunmorgan
Orion Polaris 10-25-05, 01:53 PM	That puts a whole new meaning to the words "AHHH! RUN IT'S MERRIX D'CANNITH!!!"
ekomega 10-25-05, 07:19 PM	Technically, all law-abiding sentients should have protection under Thronehold. I do not believe this is true. Several sources disagree with you, although I can't remember them. I believe S:CoT specifically mentions how Gnolls and other monsters from Droaam (which did not sign the Treaty) have no protections and therefore it is okay to kill them, but not okay for them to kill you. I will find the references when I have time. But they are there.
The White Sorcerer 10-25-05, 07:26 PM	I do not believe this is true. Several sources disagree with you, although I can't remember them. I believe S:CoT specifically mentions how Gnolls and other monsters from Droaam (which did not sign the Treaty) have no protections and therefore it is okay to kill them, but not okay for them to kill you. Maybe it means the natives of Droaam? A gnoll citizen of Breland is most definately protected by the law.
Illvillainy 10-25-05, 08:45 PM	Maybe it means the natives of Droaam? A gnoll citizen of Breland is most definately protected by the law. That's obviously the intended meaning anyway.
Just another user 10-26-05, 02:44 AM	And the artificer says "OK sir, I've come up with a plan, but uh...I'll have to kill you first." "Kill me?" "Well, uh, yes. Kill you. It wouldn't be for long, and I'm nearly certain that I can bring you back. Fairly sure, anyway. The gods might intervene, but well, this is artifice...I wouldn't expect that we couldn't bring you back." "Oh." "Maybe even as a human, if we all get lucky. Probably an orc though. Maybe a bugbear." "...right." "I hear Dolurrh isn't as bad to visit as the priests say." "You know, this sounds interesting, I'd like to think about it, thank you for your time, guards please see this man out." "...but...but... I've been working on death machines, I've nearly got them killing hamsters painlessly now! Well, no audible pain anyway." "Yes, yes. Goodbye." Ok, so you have two choices, wait to die of old age and be certain to end in Dolurrh or risk to die and come back, young again, even as a non-human, but with all your knowledges, your dragonmark and, if you play it right, your money. Wow, sure it is an hard decision, i'm sure only that only ,I dunno, 99% of the persons you ask it would choose to be reincarnated. Even the risk to attract Inevitables I don't see how stopping many people to try. The choice is between certainly die now and maybe die in a while, it is not really a choice.
Splendide 10-26-05, 04:35 AM	Ok, so you have two choices, wait to die of old age and be certain to end in Dolurrh or risk to die and come back, young again, even as a non-human, but with all your knowledges, your dragonmark and, if you play it right, your money. Wow, sure it is an hard decision, i'm sure only that only ,I dunno, 99% of the persons you ask it would choose to be reincarnated.Thats really easy to say from a completely detached viewpoint. If you're rich enough to get this done, you're rich enough to have a very healthy streak of paranoia. How do you know that this guy is on the level? Do you really trust this mercenary artificer to do the right thing? Couldn't he have been influenced to kill you, and hired an orc to impersonate you? How does the Silver Flame view people playing games with their mortality? Its all very well to have faith in artifice, but there are bigger issues for a man of any religious beliefs. Not to mention the stigma involved in coming back as a member of the lesser races. A wealthy human returning as a bugbear will have his reputation, and his family's reputation, for ever lessened for doing so. How about the idea that it just doesn't work? What if you go to Dollurh, and the process accidentally pulls a different soul back that your own? What if an enemy has locked off access to the plane so that you can't return? There are so many issues involved at a personal level for the characters, that just looking at statistical book information like you have is just ludicrous. Even the risk to attract Inevitables I don't see how stopping many people to try. The choice is between certainly die now and maybe die in a while, it is not really a choice.Precisely. Thats why they would take the choice to `die in a while' and not to be actively killed for a dubious parlour trick.
Just another user 10-26-05, 06:33 AM	Thats really easy to say from a completely detached viewpoint. If you're rich enough to get this done, you're rich enough to have a very healthy streak of paranoia. How do you know that this guy is on the level? Do you really trust this mercenary artificer to do the right thing? Couldn't he have been influenced to kill you, and hired an orc to impersonate you? How does the Silver Flame view people playing games with their mortality? Its all very well to have faith in artifice, but there are bigger issues for a man of any religious beliefs. Not to mention the stigma involved in coming back as a member of the lesser races. A wealthy human returning as a bugbear will have his reputation, and his family's reputation, for ever lessened for doing so. How about the idea that it just doesn't work? What if you go to Dollurh, and the process accidentally pulls a different soul back that your own? What if an enemy has locked off access to the plane so that you can't return? There are so many issues involved at a personal level for the characters, that just looking at statistical book information like you have is just ludicrous. Precisely. Thats why they would take the choice to `die in a while' and not to be actively killed for a dubious parlour trick. yes, but you are missing a very important, fondamental and central point. The guy is OLD. The "dying in a while" is a very short while, and when you are facing an eternity of nothing every other issue are meaningless, ***K the silver flame, ***k the honor of your family, too. You became a bugbear? Big deal, there is always polymorphing, or illusion spells and most important you are a live bugbear, rather than a dead human. "what if you go to dolurrh and stay here? If you wait too much you are sure that you'll go there, so what is the difference? We are talking about a world where people is willing to become a undead, with all the resulting problems to not go to the afterlife and you think someone would have problems to do a thing that not only make you (essentialy) immortal, but make you young, too? You don't have to trust the artificer, there are ways to be safe. a eye of aureon to be sure he is not working for your enemies, possibly a geas, some trusted/charmed/geased bodyguards to watch, hint to him that you have a Phiarlan contract on him and that only you know the "Safeword" to cancel it, so he is better be sure that the thing works, etc.
Splendide 10-26-05, 06:55 AM	yes, but you are missing a very important, fondamental and central point. The guy is OLD.That word carries a lot more with it than just `you will soon die'. The "dying in a while" is a very short while, and when you are facing an eternity of nothing every other issue are meaningless, ***K the silver flame, ***k the honor of your family, too....and suddenly, I don't think we're talking about "an average rich (and old) person" any more. We're talking about a villain, and in that case, go for it. Thats an NPC.
Hellcow 10-26-05, 12:18 PM	Ok, so you have two choices, wait to die of old age and be certain to end in Dolurrh or risk to die and come back, young again, even as a non-human, but with all your knowledges, your dragonmark and, if you play it right, your money. Wow, sure it is an hard decision, i'm sure only that only ,I dunno, 99% of the persons you ask it would choose to be reincarnated. That's not the issue at all, JAU. Of course YOU want to take that risk. But who do you get to do it for you? Yes, the inevitables will go after you. But they're also going to go after the person who made it possible for you to return, because THIS is the person who's really messing with the natural order. THIS is why Jorasco does augury before any resurrection - which tells the heir if performing the resurrection will bring woe on him. They don't give a copper crown about what happens to you. But they've had enclaves destroyed by inevitables before. It's not about YOUR choice of Dolurrh or life: it's about the adept's choice of Dolurrh or attempting to resurrect you. Yes, the artificer can make you the scroll and could be a thousand miles away when you use it. But an artificer who makes a business of producing scrolls of reincarnation may find that he has a lot of new friends from Dolurrh dropping by, wherever he goes. If you want to have reincarnation and resurrection be a regular part of life, go for it. I don't - and the existence of the inevitables is a good way to enforce it. People can return through any number of means, provided that it is their destiny to return; and this allows the DM leeway to decide who can and cannot safely come back. Otherwise, using magic that breaks the natural order is a grave risk that anyone - cleric, druid, or artificer - should use cautiously... explaining why it hasn't played a greater role in the history of Eberron.
makeshiftwings 10-26-05, 12:35 PM	I can tell you right now that I certainly would think twice about letting some random guy off the street stick a knife in my throat just to try and bring me back as a bugbear. Most people change as they get older; they don't fear death, and are willing to accept it. I don't think Eberron would be full of old people who are so obsessed with living forever. There would be a few, sure, but not many. And all artificers aren't automatically godless heathens who will do anything to make a quick gold piece; I'm sure there are many artificers who would balk at the idea of killing someone over and over to bring them back with Reincarnation scrolls, and would be offended by someone saying "What, you're not a druid, it's not like you have any morals or anything."
polt 10-26-05, 12:39 PM	Also, I don't think a druid knows that if he cast spell A, you will come back as the following creatures: ... It's probably be more like "I can reincarnate his soul in another body, however I have no power over what creature he will become".
Obezageip 10-26-05, 12:53 PM	Wow...this is amazing. I always assumed that changing your race made a dragonmark nonfunctional. So...does this mean that using Alter Self doesn't surpress your dragonmarked abilties?
polt 10-26-05, 12:56 PM	Wow...this is amazing. I always assumed that changing your race made a dragonmark nonfunctional. So...does this mean that using Alter Self doesn't surpress your dragonmarked abilties? I don't see why alter self should surpress your dragonmark. However, I disagree with the ruling that the dragonmark stays if you are reincarnated, so I don't play with that. HOWEVER, if you get reincarnated and have a dragonmark, it becomes aberrant.
Hellcow 10-26-05, 12:59 PM	HOWEVER, if you get reincarnated and have a dragonmark, it becomes aberrant. A fine idea. By the current ruling, Obezageip, yes, alter self wouldn't take the mark away. But as Polt says, it's up to the DM to decide whether to use the ruling. If you check the AKB FAQ (message 51, I believe) I originally said that you'd lose the mark if you were reincarnated as a member of a different race. This is the ruling from the WotC development team.
DragonWatcher 10-26-05, 01:22 PM	HOWEVER, if you get reincarnated and have a dragonmark, it becomes aberrant. It's my understanding that even Aberrant marks can only be possessed by members of a dragonmarked race. So, an orc, kobold, drow, naga, medusa, or baalor could not possess an Aberrant mark any more than they could possess the mark of making. Am I wrong on this? If not, Polt, are you saying that this (read: Reincarnation) is one way that a non-dragonmarked race can possess a mark (albeit an aberrant mark)?
polt 10-26-05, 01:33 PM	Well, I just don't like that a human can reincarnate and then suddenly he's a Bugbear with a mark of making. We know the marks follow certain bloodlines, and it makes more sense to me that it turns aberrant when the race suddenly changes. Although you are correct, normally an aberrant mark can only manifest on dragonmarked races.
AvonRekaes 10-26-05, 01:34 PM	This whole thing just got me curious as to how big a threat a Marut could be, so I decided to see just that by advancing a Marut to it's last hit die. I give you the results, and they are not pretty. FINAL MARUT Huge Construct (Extraplanar, Lawful) Hit Dice: 45d10+40 (272 hp) Initiative: +5 Speed: 30 ft. in full plate armor (6 squares); base speed 40 ft. Armor Class: 40 (–2 size, +1 Dex, +23 natural, +8 full plate armor), touch 9, flat-footed 39 Base Attack/Grapple: +33/+61 Attack: Slam +52 melee (4d6+20 plus 4d6 sonic or 4d6 electricity) Full Attack: 2 slams +52 melee (4d6+20 plus 4d6 sonic or 4d6 electricity) Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft. Special Attacks: Fists of thunder and lightning, spell-like abilities Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 15/chaotic and adamantine, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 10, low-light vision, spell resistance 35 Saves: Fort +17, Ref +16, Will +18 Abilities: Str 50, Dex 13, Con —, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 18 Skills: Concentration +23 (+27 casting defensively), Diplomacy +6, Knowledge (religion) +30, Listen +47, Search +10, Sense Motive +13, Spot +32, Survival +19 (+21 following tracks) Feats: Ability Focus (fists), Awesome Blow, Combat Casting, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Armor x 4, Improved Natural Attack (slam), Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-like Ability (mass inflict light wounds), Quicken Spell-like Ability (wall of force) Environment: A lawful-aligned plane Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 23 Treasure: None Alignment: Always lawful neutral Advancement: — Level Adjustment: — Nicknamed the “Final Solution”, this epitome of the inevitability of death is so named because many believe it to be the final marut the Inevitables will send after an offender. It is uncertain if this is true however, because there are no records of anyone surviving an encounter with one. Combat Once it has found its target, a marut brings it the death it has been trying to avoid. Those who defile death through necromancy may instead receive a geas and/or mark of justice to enforce proper respect. It typically uses quickened wall of force to shut off any escape routes, then opens up with chain lightning while it closes to melee range. Once there, it strikes with its massive fists, using quickened mass inflict light wounds followed in subsequent rounds by circle of death if beset by numbers of defenders. It hits spellcasting opponents with repeated uses of greater dispel magic, and it uses dimension door and locate creature to track down foes who flee. A marut’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Fists of Thunder and Lightning (Su): A marut’s left fist delivers a loud thunderclap whenever it hits something, dealing an extra 4d6 points of sonic damage and causing the target to be deafened for 2d6 rounds (Fortitude DC 54 negates the deafness). Its right fist delivers a shock for an extra 4d6 points of electricity damage, and the flash of lightning causes the target to be blinded for 2d6 rounds (Fortitude DC 54 negates the blindness). The save DCs are Strength-based and include the marut’s Ability Focus feat. Spell-Like Abilities: At will—air walk, dimension door, fear (DC 18), greater command (DC 19), greater dispel magic, mass inflict light wounds (DC 19), locate creature, true seeing; 1/day—chain lightning (DC 20), circle of death (DC 20), mark of justice, wall of force; 1/week— earthquake (DC 22), geas/quest, plane shift (DC 21). Caster level 44th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Skills: A marut has a +4 racial bonus on Concentration, Listen, and Spot checks. ...Yeah, that's a beast. So next time your players start getting out of hand and won't take "no" for an answer, you know what to do. :P
makeshiftwings 10-26-05, 02:14 PM	This whole thing just got me curious as to how big a threat a Marut could be, so I decided to see just that by advancing a Marut to it's last hit die. I give you the results, and they are not pretty. FINAL MARUT Wow... I think you need to add a "Hook" line with a catchphrase like in the newer statblocks, and have it be: "Only two things in life are certain: death and taxes. And I'm fresh out of W-2 forms."
Hellcow 10-26-05, 02:17 PM	Yeah, that's a beast. So next time your players start getting out of hand and won't take "no" for an answer, you know what to do. :P That is pretty impressive. And as an immortal spirit, it can just keep coming back for more. And don't forget, while we know there are maruts on Dolurrh, that doesn't mean that there aren't other, entirely new spirits on Dolurrh that serve the same purpose. Of course, as I said before, I don't have a particular problem with PCs coming back, if you want them to: they have a destiny. The question is why The Five Nations isn't chock full of lists of reincarnated kings. If critters like this may show up to squash the adepts and artificers who try it, well, that's one explanation. Now, with kings, I could see the same issue I raised with Merrix. If you believe in the blood right of kings, I could see people taking a dim view of reincarnation. Our king was a human with the blood of Karrn the Conqueror and Galifar the first - not some orc with dirt in his veins! By the Code of Galifar, intelligent undead are outside the protection of the law: so we have at least one example where the law does not support extension of life by any means necessary. If they say that once you become a vampire you're no longer legally you... there's certainly a precedent for saying that the same is true once you die and return as a kobold.
polt 10-26-05, 02:19 PM	I thought of another thing actually. Who's gonna believe the bugbear who claims he is the king? Even though he knows a lot of stuff, and the druid say it's a-okay.
Tek 10-26-05, 04:48 PM	I thought of another thing actually. Who's gonna believe the bugbear who claims he is the king? Even though he knows a lot of stuff, and the druid say it's a-okay. True enough. And anyways, even if the whole reincarnation was done in like, a public square, who would even want to follow a bugbear? This isn't Darguun, so I doubt that the country would want goblinoids to start ruling. It also brings up the fact that he's never going to sire a son or daughter that would be an effective next-in-line. Sure, he might have the mind of a human king, but if he mates with another bugbear, the kid's going to be a bugbear - through and through. Unless you got some.. half-bugbear thing going, but still, it's just not going to be very pretty for the nation. And if he comes back as a kobold... Yeesh! The only thing I really see working with the reincarnation would be a changeling - he could look like himself, act like himself, and all that other stuff, but this also raises the point that was brought up a few months ago. People are not guarenteed that he is the king. Everyone knows changelings exist, and I bet there would be some measures to make sure he's the real king. Even if he came back as a human, I would rule that he would look completely different than his former self. Basically, a reincarnated king would be worse off than if he just stayed dead.
Aubri 10-26-05, 05:10 PM	THIS is why Jorasco does augury before any resurrection - which tells the heir if performing the resurrection will bring woe on him. I'll just point out that Augury only sees 30 minutes into the future. :) (I ran into that in one of my games, when the PCs wanted to see if working for a prospective patron was ultimately a good idea.)
Hellcow 10-26-05, 06:37 PM	I'll just point out that Augury only sees 30 minutes into the future. :) Absolutely: and most forms of raising the dead take ten minutes. The point of using augury is to find out "Will rampaging maruts show up and kill me if I raise this guy from the dead?" If it's going to happen, in my opinion it's likely to happen right then and there: the marut effectively follows the departing soul out of Dolurrh and shows up to deal with you both. If you defeat it, then you can get into an "on the run" scenario. So augury won't help the artificer decide whether it's a good idea to make a scroll; it's possible the inevitables won't notice for a while, possibly not until it's used (at which point they may start by smacking down the scroll user and then start hunting for the maker). But for the Jorasco adept, knowing that the decision to activate the altar will bring "woe" on him in the next thirty minutes is exactly the information he needs.
Just another user 10-26-05, 06:58 PM	If you want to have reincarnation and resurrection be a regular part of life, go for it. I don't - and the existence of the inevitables is a good way to enforce it. People can return through any number of means, provided that it is their destiny to return; and this allows the DM leeway to decide who can and cannot safely come back. Otherwise, using magic that breaks the natural order is a grave risk that anyone - cleric, druid, or artificer - should use cautiously... explaining why it hasn't played a greater role in the history of Eberron. No, Kwith, quite the contrary, I don't want resurrection be so availlable that why I was os bothered that by the RAW they would be so easy to accomplish. Now the idea of demons that come not only after the reincarnated but the caster of the magic, I can live with. It don't make the "rich guy buy himself a new life" totally impossible (which is a good thing because it is an interesting scenario) but is a good enough deterent that it will not happen too frequently, just money is not enough they must make so that the caster will face something worse than a enraged marut if he don't make the scroll/cast the spell "if you care for your little daughter, we have a proposal you can't refuse." Dependign on how devastating are the marut in their mission there could even be laws against such things, so even if someone do it and survive it will become an outlaw.