Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DBlizzard 09-10-07, 07:08 PM	In Chris Thomasson's latest blog entry (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206361): Okay, here's something I wasn't expecting from the submissions in box. I'm seeing a lot more Eberron adventure pitches than FR adventure pitches. I can't quite figure out why, either. Is it because there's just more stuff out there for FR, so fans are less likely to send in ideas? Is it because people think there's more of the Eberron "story" to be told? The number of Eberron players is on the upswing? I'm not sure, but I think it's a mix of stuff. And I hope it's a lot of the latter. I really like Eberron. If I were running a game of my own again (I've been on DM hiatus for a couple years, something I'll be rectifying next week), I'd probably pick Eberron to run it in. I'm a workaholic DM in a lot of ways. I never stop thinking about cool adventures I want to run, or looking for ways to implement print adventures into my campaign. But I hate the down-and-dirty work of building a stat block. I think that's a main reason I went to Bill last summer and asked to be on the Insider team when he told us about the project. I'm a huge advocate for DMs having to spend more time doing the parts of the job they enjoy, and less time doing the parts they don't. Making a DM's life easier is a lot of what Insider is all about.
Rechan 09-10-07, 09:23 PM	This is definitely cool. I sure hope the adventures have a nice mix. Maybe some intrigue based plots, or just high flying action.
Nived 09-10-07, 10:53 PM	My personal theory, and please understand I'm not trying to bash Forgotten Realms. It just seems to me, now I could be wrong... but it seems to me that most generic adventures are easier to convert to FRs, after all they use generic fluff for their monsters, and in a similar vein FR adventures are easy to strip back to a generic adventure. Eberron has enough unique elements and takes on monsters that adventures written for it are clearly earmarked as Eberron adventures while some FR adventure writers may be choosing to just write their adventures generically, with clear influance as to where it'd happen in the realms just presenting it generically. I could be wrong, just a theory.
Nlogue 09-11-07, 01:29 AM	Ha! I AM the reason for this I'm sure. I submitted like ten or so Eberron adventure props...here's hoping! I play tested one of the adventures with James Wyatt at the table on Saturday, and he seemed to have a great time, so wow, that was an awesome experience.:cloud9: In fact I'm hoping to run a sequel to that adventure for James and the rest of the players at that session next time we cross paths...our session ended at a vertigo-inducing cliffhanger. Chris Lindsay and Chris Sims (both WotC bonafide employees) also play tested the same adventure in another session. All three of those guys rocked out the role-playing too, it was great times! James played an old-as-dirt paladin of the Silver Flame who is being forced into retirement (he was a big damn hero in the Last War and the Church did not want to see him come to some ignominious end on a mission). James was awesome in the role. Chris Sims and Chris Lindsay played two sides of the same coin - one a fresh-faced Citadel graduate and Brelish patriot, the latter a drunk has-been of a hero who was once a Citadel Elite and favored agent of the King (after a certain mission went pear-shaped he was exiled). They banged out awesome synergy and chemistry as polar opposites and it made for some great scenes! All in all very good times... ...and who knows - maybe they'll put in a good word to Chris about the adventure! :schemes:
Rechan 09-11-07, 02:15 AM	Glad to hear, Nick! :) Looking forward to seeing 'em! Did you ever find your notes for Quoth?
Nlogue 09-11-07, 03:32 AM	Glad to hear, Nick! :) Looking forward to seeing 'em! Did you ever find your notes for Quoth? Alas! I did not! They may have gone the way of the recycle bin. I'll try and look for em one more time on my computer when I get back from Seattle. Seattle...where the gaming be.
Kid SixXx 09-11-07, 08:21 AM	Wow, why did Tomasson have to put things that way? I'm as happy as anyone to see an increase of Eberron materiel, but jeez, the backlash on the FR boards about how Eberron is the bane of D&D can't be far behind.
_Radagast_ 09-11-07, 08:41 AM	Wow, why did Tomasson have to put things that way? I'm as happy as anyone to see an increase of Eberron materiel, but jeez, the backlash on the FR boards about how Eberron is the bane of D&D can't be far behind. That's funny, I feel like Eberron is a rebirth for D&D. Most of my old D&D buddies (we're not that old, 24-26) got back into D&D after years because of the setting that Eberron is. I really hope a lot of the Digital Insider content supports Eberron. FR is just showing its age...
Kid SixXx 09-11-07, 10:33 AM	That's funny, I feel like Eberron is a rebirth for D&D. Most of my old D&D buddies (we're not that old, 24-26) got back into D&D after years because of the setting that Eberron is. I totally agree as it was Eberron that got me back into pen & paper. It's just that there's always been this misconception held by the FR faithful that Eberron development always comes at the expense of FR materiel. I fear that Thomasson's statement will only add "fool to the fire" once it begins its inevitable circulation through the internet.
DBlizzard 09-11-07, 10:43 AM	I'm as happy as anyone to see an increase of Eberron materiel, but jeez, the backlash on the FR boards about how Eberron is the bane of D&D can't be far behind. It's been floating around for a while. I think it's even stronger among the Greyhawk group, because some perceive Eberron as getting the slot that Greyhawk "deserved." In fact, he said nothing negative about FR. The only thing he implied was that Eberron had more stories left to be told than FR. I think that's a fair statement since FR has told a lot of it's stories and Eberron hasn't been around long enough to even touch them.
Kid SixXx 09-11-07, 11:00 AM	First I see this: In fact, he said nothing negative about FR. And then this: The only thing he implied was that Eberron had more stories left to be told than FR. I'm kinda fuzzy how you couldn't help but add some sort of negative connotation to that, whether it be that the FR is somehow "tapped out" or that somehow Eberron has more proactive fans than other settings do. An abundance of new Eberron based adventures is certainly that will inspire me to actually burn currency on the online Dungeon, but Thomasson's statement certainly can be inferred as divisive by folks that are already hellbent on being resentful of our beloved setting.
DBlizzard 09-11-07, 01:01 PM	I'm kinda fuzzy how you couldn't help but add some sort of negative connotation to that, whether it be that the FR is somehow "tapped out" or that somehow Eberron has more proactive fans than other settings do. You could, but you'd be adding it. Just because a setting has more untold stories than another setting doesn't mean that the second setting is "tapped out." An abundance of new Eberron based adventures is certainly that will inspire me to actually burn currency on the online Dungeon, but Thomasson's statement certainly can be inferred as divisive by folks that are already hellbent on being resentful of our beloved setting. Or it could be a call to FR fans to get off their buts and submit adventure ideas.
Kid SixXx 09-11-07, 01:54 PM	You could, but you'd be adding it. Just because a setting has more untold stories than another setting doesn't mean that the second setting is "tapped out." How am I adding it? It's right there in the blog. Not to rehash what Thomasson already said, but sheesh, I'm not sure how you can honestly say that you can look at Thomasson's statement and not see the outright indictments. Of course the next question is do I agree with his assessments, and the answer is absolutely. Or it could be a call to FR fans to get off their buts and submit adventure ideas. And again, my own stereotype of the about FR fans not withstanding (ie. the misnomer that they seem to prefer to debate FR canon rather than actually play the game), I completely agree. But even in agreement, there are better ways to prod the creativity of other setting communities rather than an outright goad. The pulling of the FR's collective punk card can only end poorly.
Hopeless 09-12-07, 11:05 AM	In Chris Thomasson's latest blog entry (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=206361): I suspect that might be due to 2 things at least; 1) The THIRTEENTH version of Final Fantasy is due out in a couple of years let alone all the other series that involve fantasy and tech and 2) The simple fact that Eberron is significantly more interesting than the Forgotten Realms, even if they think 20's pulp/noir is what draws people to it, the rest of us know its due to all those roleplaying computer games with the gradually getting utterly impressive intro's thats really responsible after all when people think of a campaign where there's airships, shifters, changelings and an accurate portrayal of the differences between religious faiths and nationalities the first thing I think of is the intro to Final Fantasy XII and the initial battle and think... THAT's D&D! Of course then I watch the Lord of the Rings extended version and think... now the guy playing Gandalf would make a great Elminster mind you he won't be interested in chasing women around though! (Apologies to Ian McKellan but it is true he would make a great Elminster!)
Dark Wizard 09-12-07, 10:37 PM	I'm more of a Realms fan, I spend most of my time on the FR boards, but I have taken a look at Eberron and see many points of interest in Eberron, so don't shoot me just yet. I have a few observations and thoughts on the difference Chris Thomasson pointed out. These are my own views (possibly skewed, probably biased) and I do not presume to speak for anyone else. The first thing that comes to mind is as a FR fan I found the blog post somewhat negative leaning against the Realms. He probably didn't meant it that way, but he basically posted a faux pas. Upon my first skim of that post, my immediate interpretation was something like this: Chris Thomasson: "So it turns out Eberron is getting more DI adventure submissions than FR. I'm not sure why, maybe it's for several reasons (most of which hint at franchise fatigue and general staleness on the part of FR) but I guess I could see why. If I had time to run a game I would use Eberron too. I like Eberron a lot and hope it succeeds and gets more players, more adventures and more support! Go, Eberron!" While I didn't expect such from his blog, there was absolutely no encouragement towards FR and gamers who like that setting in his post. There was no call for FR fans to send in more submissions. He understood there was a disparity but made no hint of further thought and investigation into why or how to address the issue, then ended with a big applause for Eberron. It was more a mini-celebration of Eberron's success. This isn't a problem in itself, but he came off as celebrating Eberron's success at the expense of FR, to me at least. Of course after a few seconds I realized he's just excited for Eberron and merely neutral towards the Realms. It's somewhat disheartening when a WotC employee comes out and shows that sort of favoritism. I'm not saying WotC employees can't have favorite settings and talk about them, but hopefully they will consider how they phrase their enthusiasm. Another point is that over the last year or two, WotC released almost all adventures for the Realms. We had Secrets of the Moonsea, the mostly core generic Expedition to Undermountain, various smaller ones (Sons of Gruumsh, Twilight Tomb), and the three-part mega-adventure Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave, Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land, and the upcoming Anauroch: The Sundering of the World. So four out of seven of the 160 page sourcebooks for FR have been adventures, plus the 224 page Undermountain. That is a good set of adventures for a long while. One thing I noticed is that many on the FR boards really didn't receive the adventures well, for possible reasons too lengthy to get into here. A third reason is that many are discussing, getting excited about, reading, or trying to get a copy of Grand History of the Realms. It was compiled by just a fan, who happened to be very hard working and loved his hobby a lot. The WotC designers liked his work so much they bought it and turned it into a sourcebook. Honestly, that probably trumps any DI submission. To many Realms fans, GHotR represents the exemplar of what a Realms sourcebook should be (noticed how it's not an adventure involving an RSE). If you skim over the FR boards, you will see groups of fans working on various projects, the Elves of Faerun netbook, the Kara-Tur Redux thread, the Utter East thread, the work on integrating the Tome of Battle into the Realms. An even greater compilation of fan generated work can be found in the Candlekeep Compendiums at candlekeep.com. There are something like eight of them so far, most at least two or three dozen pages long, well written and research, and presented professionally. Another impressive fan project that can be found on the net is the Northern Journey campaign which developed some little visited parts of Faerun and a set of adventures written for that area. Realms fans are far from inactive in piecing together new material. It just seems many of us view DI as secondary (maybe even less than that) to what we can do ourselves within our own communities. One final thing that came to mind. Eberron doesn't seem like it's slated for a 4E update until at least 2009, that's a full two years away. Meanwhile FR is slated for a 4E release next year. There have been numerous hints at major changes to the setting (anywhere from a 10 year to a full 100 year timeline jump, numerous places devastated and many NPCs killed due to the ensuing chaos or passage of time). Some of the details are being released in upcoming novels, GHotRs, the final part of the mega-adventure and the like. Many of these sources are being released this month. I think a lot of fans are waiting it out to see what happens before their participation in WotC's version of the new Realms can be decided. WotC is also giving us a lot of mixed signals. Rich Baker said the "points of light" design philosophy will not be forcefully applied to the Realms, yet the prologue of the Orc King contains a detailed, point-by-point paraphrasing of his "points of light" post. I think there is a major disconnect with what WotC feels is right for the setting and what some of the long time fans of the setting think. I suppose thats a good summary of the community's sentiments. FR's creator doesn't visit the WotC FR forums, but instead he frequents candlekeep.com, as do most of the designers and authors for the Forgotten Realms. The fan interaction with the designers/authors there is very active. Many of the WotC FR board regulars visit Candlekeep as well. A lot of the discussion takes place outside of WotC's territory. So in away, Realms fans are somewhat selfsufficient and independent from WotC. At the same time, WotC hasn't made some of us feel welcomed (especially not with comments like those noted above). Most of it has to do with the direction of the setting with the constant RSEs (Realms Shaking Events). WotC is doing it's own thing and the fans are doing something else, there probably is overlap, especially with the supposed silent majority who votes with sales and money rather than opinions on the forums. Maybe it's because more of Eberron's lead designers are in house or Keith Baker hangs out here compared to the most well known Realms designers being freelancers who make more appearances at non-WotC sites. Maybe it's because the Realms survived TSR's fall and pick up by WotC. It survived three editions and is about to head into another. There may be a sense of remoteness to the company that owns the Realms or the current rules edition. This is probably magnified when many fans don't feel the company cares all that much about the Realms other than novel and book sales. That's just how it seems to me.
_Radagast_ 09-13-07, 12:58 AM	Dark Wizard, While I don't think my puny post does any justice to your well thought-out, and obviously time-consuming effort, I just have to say I don't think any of your points really have to do with why the FR has less submissions than Eberron. So there are some community efforts to put information on the web, there are similar efforts by Eberron fans. And, there's a few key fans who have developed some key material for the FR (notably the GhotR sourcebook you mention). This is not surprising considering the sheer volume of information out for the Realms, as well as the length of time FR has been a setting. The fact of the matter is, Eberron fans are showcasing their excitement at the future of Eberron by submitting plenty of proposals. FR fans aren't submitting. This doesn't mean that Eberron is dethroning FR as "the" setting, but it does mean that Eberron fans are stirred up and excited about producing material for other fans to sink their teeth into. Cheers.
Kid SixXx 09-13-07, 07:14 AM	While I don't think my puny post does any justice to your well thought-out, and obviously time-consuming effort, I just have to say I don't think any of your points really have to do with why the FR has less submissions than Eberron. Really? I think that DW spoke to the issue rather well. I think his comments about the split between fans and devs was pretty powerful. Why whould FR fans contribute submissions in support of a setting they think is broken or does not keep in touch with the fanbase? The answer to "Why is there a lower number of FR submissions?" seems to hover around the notion that they're doing their thing someplace else. The Candlekeep website seems to be the hotbed of FR creativity these days.
korcheck 09-13-07, 04:05 PM	Call me crazy but my thought in the subject is that if you look around this board and the net every once in awhile you'll see rumors floating around about how bad sales are doing for eberron. This may have led to die hards and regular fans alike to post more and submit more adventure ideas whereas because FR has such a long standing tradition the fans have grown a bit complacent knowing that WotC will keep FR as it's backbone or mainstay world as DW said it has survived longer than most other worlds. Just a thought.
Nived 09-13-07, 04:10 PM	Could be, all it really means is more Eberron adventures are being submited than FR adventures. The whys and what not are all just guesses.
Dark Wizard 09-14-07, 01:57 AM	I guess what I was trying to get at is that why FR fans are submitting less has nothing to do with fans thinking the setting is stale or a lack of enthusiasm towards the setting. I showed that FR fans are not inactive when creating fan material. In fact many took the initiative. Most of the fan projects on the FR boards are due to a perceived lack of regional style sourcebooks released for the Realms over the 3.5e era. Most of them address areas that WotC hasn't given attention to for years, even decades. On the other hand, projects like Elves of Faerun is part giant compilation of existing material and part new synthesis on an entire race in the setting. The fans have taken to filling in the gaps in WotC's offerings. We are every bit as excited about the Realms and willing to show it as the fans of any other setting. And what is the first thing a WotC employee thinks about the lack of FR submissions? Little better than a polite way of saying: "Oh, maybe there are no more stories to tell in the Realms. There's too much material out there already. The setting could be getting stale." It's little comments like that that scare us. They show they just don't understand what we want and show little effort to try to understand. When I see the next RSE I always feel very out of touch with what WotC is thinking. They didn't send a representative to post a thread on the FR boards saying that submissions are open for FR adventures. Maybe they don't want FR adventures. Heck I found out about the Thomasson's blog post when someone posted something at the FR boards saying it was a clear sign of FR's staleness. I went over to read the post myself. Later I came over here to browse like I do now and then (this time to see how 4E affected Eberron), but found this topic. I get the strong feeling that FR fans just don't care about the DI. We have little reason to. Really, if I was good at writing adventures, why should I submit a pitch? Money? We do this for fun. Recognition? I can write up a fan project (probably collaborate with several very knowledgeable and experienced gamers), compile it into a nice .pdf and post it up somewhere. In the end, if it's not part of DI, it's free for everyone. We get constructive comments from other fans and gamers. I can ask any of the half dozen designers who frequent the Candlekeep boards (including the setting creator) and the WotC FR boards for help or tidbits. Candlekeep hosts individual threads for each designer or author who agrees to have a thread there. The most prominent thread is the one where people get to ask Ed Greenwood questions. This thread reaches upwards of 80 pages every year (the other designers have far less, but they're still very present and some of them wander into other threads). All of Ed's posts are answers about various aspects of the Realms. Many of his posts are many paragraphs long. They're complete with designer notes, what the origins or inspiration for something was, how things changed once they hit publication, suggestions on how use something. The good people at Candlekeep compile his answers and those of the other designers into organized files. Other designers and writers have posted up their own FR material. Frequent Realms freelancer Eric Boyd hosts two large .pdfs that converted many of the 2e monsters to 3e. They're something like 140 and 200+ pages (80 something monsters). Tom Costa has a .pdf of dozens of PrCs, feats, spells, items, etc. (80ish pages). Even Scott Bennie, who's main contribution to the Realms was 2e's Old Empires back in 1990, wrote up an unofficial update to that region (both rules and story). That file is 125 pages. Brian R. James compiled the 100+ page Grand History. WotC asked him if they could publish his work. It was unsolicited, he did it because he likes the Realms. It's nice that WotC likes his work too. I'm not saying that I wouldn't be proud if WotC published an article or adventure I wrote. I'm sure all FR fans would feel great if it was them. It's just only a very nice side thing to have on top of having fun in the Realms. WotC doesn't have to ask us to write for the Realms, we do that already. They might have to ask us to play ball on their field, since we have many fields of our own, which in our minds are just as good if not most likely better than WotC's. I'm not here to gloat that the Realms are better or more self-sufficient. I think so far they're just different. Maybe WotC understands the needs of Eberron fans more. Maybe Eberron fans have more faith in WotC. Maybe WotC has to take a different approach towards Realms fans rather than just trying to force us to flock to their banner. Maybe Realms fans are just paranoid old grognards. I also like hearing that Eberron is getting lots of fan support. Any setting that's has dedicated fans has to be doing good things. I'll return you guys to your regular Eberron programming now. I figured I would get that off my chest on a relevant thread outside of the FR boards, Helm knows if anyone actually pays attention to us Realms fanatics there. Oh wait, Helm's not around anymore. I guess the FR boards are where they put die-hard Realms fans out to pasture.
DragoonDarkfire 09-14-07, 11:52 AM	OH will you relax? In 10 or so years Wizards will have come up with a new setting and the rest of us Eberron fans will be in the same boat as you.
bhasu 09-14-07, 07:37 PM	I think all of peoples ideas might be correct. And Nick might also be singlehandedly responsible for it. All the stuff I submitted was Eberron related, due solely to the fact I have been in Eberron mode since it released. I played Forgotten Realms for a long time (though Planescape and Spelljammer, and even a touch of Ravenloft crept in) and it will always have a place in my heart, but these days I just feel Eberron is more in tune with the way I want to play. I don't think there is really a 'better' setting when it comes down to it. It is just personal preference. Can't we all just get along. (It's not like we are talking about an RP server vs. PVP, and I hope it never regresses to that)
Dark Wizard 09-14-07, 09:25 PM	I hope Eberron gets much more than another ten years before WotC uses a nuke to reset the world.
DragoonDarkfire 09-14-07, 10:16 PM	I hope Eberron gets much more than another ten years before WotC uses a nuke to reset the world. Eh. 10, 20, 30, either way we'll be in the same boat eventually.
Hopeless 09-15-07, 09:11 AM	I guess what I was trying to get at is that why FR fans are submitting less has nothing to do with fans thinking the setting is stale or a lack of enthusiasm towards the setting. I also like hearing that Eberron is getting lots of fan support. Any setting that's has dedicated fans has to be doing good things. I'll return you guys to your regular Eberron programming now. I figured I would get that off my chest on a relevant thread outside of the FR boards, Helm knows if anyone actually pays attention to us Realms fanatics there. Oh wait, Helm's not around anymore. I guess the FR boards are where they put die-hard Realms fans out to pasture. Hmm thats two messages and the feeling I'm getting is that the problem might not be due to lack of interest in developing new scenarios and ideas for the setting but the fact they've realised that there is a major change on the horizon and until they know what's actually going to happen any ideas they're having is being kept to themselves or between other FR fans until they know what they're going to have to deal with. It makes more sense though, when I read that extract from the Orcs King it immediately made me wonder how a campaign in that era 100 years from FR would start off with the descendants of characters in their present campaign. Something like; Roland the fighter, grandson of a legendary adventurer who chose to stand and fight in Nesme whose shattered remaints are still being fought over but heroes like Roland's grandfather is why Roland and others like him have chosen to become adventurer's in this dark era to help bring back the light! Not a scenario but an idea where such things can be developed from, but I suppose its more likely going to be set 10 years from current era ala spell plague or whatever that will be. Take care and all the best!