Dwarfs? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Dwarfs? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Stealth_Vicious
01-12-07, 09:49 PM Are the Dwarfs and orc still enemies in eberron, my dm challeged my backstory, saying orcs are not as bad in the eberron setting, but i can find no book to prove his statement, the only evidence i have to go on is whats in the players handbook, and it say dwarf have found common ground with the elves in there battles against the orcs, goblin, and knolls, and generally mistrust half orcs. is the still true, or has it changed? also i still have a +1 to attack those races, had that change as well? maybe in the players handbook 2, cause that's the only book a don't have access to.
The White Sorcerer
01-12-07, 09:59 PM The Mror dwarves battle constantly with the Jhorash'tar orcs of the Ironroot Mountains. The Shadow Marches orcs, on the other hand, have little against the dwarves and vice versa.
Alex_
01-12-07, 10:08 PM Not all Orcs in Eberron are bad. Not all Dwarves in Eberrong are good. They still have a history of racial conflict in the Mror Holds, where some Orc tribes come into conflict with the Dwarven Clans there. They are, however, pretty much unrelated to the Orcs living in the Shadow Marches. However, I think some clans are friends with them. The Dwarves don't get along with each other too well either.

So depending on what you want your experience with Orcs to be, you can view them as enemies, neutrally, or even as allies.

Your Eberron Dwarf still gets all the normal bonuses and proficencies listed in the PHB. They usually don't agree with the cultures in Eberron. For instance, all Elves gain proficency with the longbow and longsword, whether they were raised amongst Humans on Khorvaire, amongst the scimitar wielding Valenar, or the contemplative and more magically inclined Aerenal Elves. They all automatically know how to use longbows and longswords.

So ask your DM about it.
Just another user
01-13-07, 09:17 AM What you must consider is that in Eberron where are you from is almost as important, if not more, than what race you are. A brelandish dwarf could have feel to have more in common with a brelandish half-orc than with an Mror Hold dwarf.
Mror hodl dwarves have a strong rivality with the Jhorash'tar orcs, some of the mror dwarves could have a generic prejudice against all the orcs, it is not a generic thing but it can change from dwarf to dwarf.
Bluebrush
01-13-07, 09:51 AM As for the racial combat bonuses, it may be that dwarf physiology favours combat styles which are effective of those favoured by their traditional enemies.

Or maybe it's just reflected in all dwarf combat traditions.
Kreistor2
01-13-07, 09:57 AM In general, orcs in Eberron are not considered as brutish as in other realms, but they are still uncivilized. They occupy two areas -- the Mror Holds as others have mentioned, and the Shadow Marches.

The Shadow Marches orcs are far less classic. They are swamp dwellers. They serve as the protectors of Khorvaire against the larger efforts of the Daelkyr, who tend to operate below the SM more than anywhere else. Those orcs are far less monstrous than in other systems. They've never, at least in recorded history, turned into a horde and flooded into their neighbours' realms. Some worship nasty gods (Cults of the Dragon Below) but their primary religion is that of the druidic Gatekeepers.

Even in the Mror Holds, the orcs are small in number. Yes, they have a traditional conflict with the dwarves, but again, they don't build up into hordes and then flood across lands to overwhelem and rule.
Nived
01-13-07, 11:52 AM Now the thing I really ponder is how to justify the +4 dodge bonus to AC vs giants.

With the Gnomes one can argue its not that far from Droaam where we know there are standing armies of ogre.... that at some point in the past there were conflicts....

But seriously how do you get Ogre or Trolls up to the Mror Holds (as they seem to be the only giants prominant at all in Khorvaire.)
The White Sorcerer
01-13-07, 12:44 PM Droaam isn't the only place with significant ogre/troll populations, I imagine.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
01-13-07, 01:52 PM In general, orcs in Eberron are not considered as brutish as in other realms, but they are still uncivilized. They occupy two areas -- the Mror Holds as others have mentioned, and the Shadow Marches.
You forget the Demon Wastes, where Silver Flame worshipping orcs called the Ghaash'kala fight to keep the creatures of Khyber from emerging from the Labyrinth.

The Shadow Marches orcs are far less classic. They are swamp dwellers. They serve as the protectors of Khorvaire against the larger efforts of the Daelkyr, who tend to operate below the SM more than anywhere else. Those orcs are far less monstrous than in other systems. They've never, at least in recorded history, turned into a horde and flooded into their neighbours' realms. Some worship nasty gods (Cults of the Dragon Below) but their primary religion is that of the druidic Gatekeepers.

The Dragon Below/Gatekeeper split in the Shadow Marches is about 50/50 for the orcs, so the Gatekeeper religion isn't really their most dominant any more.

But seriously how do you get Ogre or Trolls up to the Mror Holds (as they seem to be the only giants prominant at all in Khorvaire.)

I imagine trolls and ogres live in the Mror Holds as well as the south west, just like orcs. Since trolls prefer mountainous terrain, the Mror Holds seems one of their more likely habitats. In fact, I've fleshed out the Mror Holds trolls quite a lot for my games.
Edymnion
01-13-07, 02:07 PM In general, orcs in Eberron are not considered as brutish as in other realms, but they are still uncivilized.Personally, I put the Eberron Orcs a rung or two up the civlized ladder than Shifters. They're no city boys, but they've got a more stable and organized life than your standard shifter tribe.Now the thing I really ponder is how to justify the +4 dodge bonus to AC vs giants.

...

But seriously how do you get Ogre or Trolls up to the Mror Holds (as they seem to be the only giants prominant at all in Khorvaire.)Hill Giants come to mind, and don't forget that the Dwarves originally came from Frostfell where they could have had to deal with Frost Giants. Really, you just have to let go of the idea that all giants need to be Xen'Drik giants, and you can put them pretty much where ever you want. I personally make Xen'Drik giants be Eldritch Giants, and all the rest of the normal giants are just big people across the rest of the world.
The White Sorcerer
01-13-07, 02:30 PM I personally make Xen'Drik giants be Eldritch Giants, and all the rest of the normal giants are just big people across the rest of the world.

Hmm... Eldritch giants seem a bit too advanced to represent the average modern Xen'drik giant.
Alex_
01-13-07, 03:37 PM Hmm... Eldritch giants seem a bit too advanced to represent the average modern Xen'drik giant.

Perhaps the Eldritch Giants in his Xendrik haven't fallen as far from their magical roots as the Giants in the core setting.
The White Sorcerer
01-13-07, 03:58 PM Perhaps the Eldritch Giants in his Xendrik haven't fallen as far from their magical roots as the Giants in the core setting.

Sure, but those would be exceptions. Most Xen'drik giants these days are hill giants and such.
Alex_
01-13-07, 04:23 PM Sure, but those would be exceptions.

Yeah it would be. It's his setting, and is a houserule.
mhacdebhandia
01-13-07, 05:18 PM Personally, I put the Eberron Orcs a rung or two up the civlized ladder than Shifters. They're no city boys, but they've got a more stable and organized life than your standard shifter tribe.
Especially those orcs associated with House Tharashk and the city of Zarash'ak.
Edymnion
01-13-07, 06:49 PM Hmm... Eldritch giants seem a bit too advanced to represent the average modern Xen'drik giant.
Perhaps the Eldritch Giants in his Xendrik haven't fallen as far from their magical roots as the Giants in the core setting.
Sure, but those would be exceptions. Most Xen'drik giants these days are hill giants and such.Thats not exactly what I meant. I meant that my Age of Giants giants were Eldritch Giants. The smatterings of what are left are mechanically hill giants and the ilk, although I do still have a few glory age giants still out there. And if the PCs run into any mummified giants, they'll be mummified Eldritch Giants.
The White Sorcerer
01-13-07, 07:41 PM Thats not exactly what I meant. I meant that my Age of Giants giants were Eldritch Giants.

Ah. My mistake. That makes sense. I, too, consider the eldritch giants as the closest thing to the ancient giants.
ArcTan
01-14-07, 01:49 AM Your Eberron Dwarf still gets all the normal bonuses and proficencies listed in the PHB. They usually don't agree with the cultures in Eberron. For instance, all Elves gain proficency with the longbow and longsword, whether they were raised amongst Humans on Khorvaire, amongst the scimitar wielding Valenar, or the contemplative and more magically inclined Aerenal Elves. They all automatically know how to use longbows and longswords.

So ask your DM about it.

One of Keith's Dragonshards specifically changes Tairnadal Elves' proficiency from longsword to scimitar.

As for the Elves in general, the Elves do have very long lives and very fresh memories of very bloody warfare -- I don't see why weapons training wouldn't be more of a cultural universal for Elves than Humans.

And the way the other races were written was intended to fit with the D&D racial traits. The Dwarves, for instance, maintained their independence only thanks to generations of constant struggle against the Dhakaani goblinoids and their orcish neighbors, and their whole martial tradition has evolved around that. The Gnomes similarly have a deep and lasting hatred of Dhakaan and Dhakaan's sometime orcish allies and a long, savage history of making war on those larger than them before they achieved their present state as a Switzerland-like power broker.
The White Sorcerer
01-14-07, 07:17 AM The Gnomes similarly have a deep and lasting hatred of Dhakaan and Dhakaan's sometime orcish allies

Gnomes don't get a bonus vs. orcs.
goblin_pride
01-14-07, 08:42 AM Gnomes don't get a bonus vs. orcs.

That's just 'cause the orcs didn't do too much during that whole incident in Zil. The lazy buggers were too busy watching the skies and talking to the trees.
Alex_
01-14-07, 10:53 AM One of Keith's Dragonshards specifically changes Tairnadal Elves' proficiency from longsword to scimitar.

As for the Elves in general, the Elves do have very long lives and very fresh memories of very bloody warfare -- I don't see why weapons training wouldn't be more of a cultural universal for Elves than Humans.

Few Elves alive today were present during the conflict with the Giants or Dragons. Only the Taerdanel fought with the Goblins or maintained what seemed to be a ppopular martial culture. Khorvaire Elves are raised pretty much like Humans of the 5 nations. There was a war, but not all of them were involved, and it doesn't make sense for EVERY Elf to be proficient with a couple of weapons they'll never really use any more than every Human, every urban Halfling, or every Half-Elf.

They are all very different culturally, but just because each culture has war in it's history, it means every single member of that race has practiced to master the exact same weapons (with the exception of scimitar for Valenar as an optional rule)? Come on. It's obvious that Eberron was hindered more than helped by the PHB in this instance.

And the way the other races were written was intended to fit with the D&D racial traits. The Dwarves, for instance, maintained their independence only thanks to generations of constant struggle against the Dhakaani goblinoids and their orcish neighbors, and their whole martial tradition has evolved around that. The Gnomes similarly have a deep and lasting hatred of Dhakaan and Dhakaan's sometime orcish allies and a long, savage history of making war on those larger than them before they achieved their present state as a Switzerland-like power broker.

These are (very good) attempts to explain away the silliness of the DnD racial bonuses and modifiers. However, there are Gnome familiies that have lived in Sharn for generations, and have just as much knowledge of Goblinoid war tactics as the Human next to them.

There are Dwarves who born and raised in Thrane, where they probably never encountered Orcs in any decent numbers- certainly not enough to be given a bonus against them compared to any other race.

Kieth and the other folks working in Eberron did the best they could, but the PHB cultural assumptions and related mechanics about every individual of every race is something of a limiting factor if you want to change things up a bit.

A WOTC published set of complete alternate rules for Racial traits and modifiers for PHB races that don't also make cultural assumptions would help. The DMG offers suggestsions, but leaves creation and balance up to the DM, while Unearthed Arcana offers regional variants, but still makes assumptions about culture.

But like I said, ask the DM. He may have his own set of options or may be able to come up with some houserules to adress it if your Dwarf, for any variety of reasons, DIDN'T train to become better at fighting Goblins and Orcs, or your Elf DIDN'T train to become proficient with the longsword and longbow.
Arcane Guyver
01-14-07, 06:07 PM A WOTC published set of complete alternate rules for Racial traits and modifiers for PHB races that don't also make cultural assumptions would help.
Quoted for emphasis. Not to jump on the whole 4e wagon here, but this is one of those things I hope they change for it (if and when it comes).

The problem is coming up with good replacement abilities for the culture-based stuff that won't unbalance the elf, dwarf, and gnome. And if you really want the cultural stuff (like elven weapon proficiencies), mayhap an extra 1st-level feat that is based on background would be in order. Bonus languages are also a thing of frustration for me, here...I'm thinking of just letting all races have free access to languages.

For example, eliminate the dwarven cultural traits and give them...I dunno...the 'Earth Sense' feat from Races of Stone. Then the dwarf could take 'Mror Combat Traditions' background feat, which would grant weapon familiarity with dwarven weapons, attack bonuses against goblins and orcs, and the dodge bonus against giants.
Alex_
01-14-07, 06:23 PM I think they might want to kind of start over with them.

Keep the bonuses and penalties to Attributes, but totally redo the other bonuses from scratch.
PlaDeDump
01-16-07, 08:54 AM Maybe the bonuses dwarves get against giants, goblinoids, and Orcs are for use for PCs only. This way, a player can say his/her character knows how to battle giants, et al, but not every dwarf has that knowledge. This can be a bonus for players and not mess up the setting by saying all have this battle knowledge.
Evilmonster
01-16-07, 09:31 PM Well, I figgure that the Dwarfs were alone aginst the goblin and orc natives for hundreds of years before the humans showed up and 'civilized' the contenent. So my dwarfs keep thier attack bonus aginst those guys.

But I switched out the elf's find-doors-without-looking thing for the dwarf's dodge bonus -vs- giants.

I figgure that dwarfs, being all famiular with engenering, would have the eyes for that sorta thing. And the elfs have the history of fighting giants. Personaly I like it quite a bit more that way.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stealth_Vicious 01-12-07, 09:49 PM	Are the Dwarfs and orc still enemies in eberron, my dm challeged my backstory, saying orcs are not as bad in the eberron setting, but i can find no book to prove his statement, the only evidence i have to go on is whats in the players handbook, and it say dwarf have found common ground with the elves in there battles against the orcs, goblin, and knolls, and generally mistrust half orcs. is the still true, or has it changed? also i still have a +1 to attack those races, had that change as well? maybe in the players handbook 2, cause that's the only book a don't have access to.
The White Sorcerer 01-12-07, 09:59 PM	The Mror dwarves battle constantly with the Jhorash'tar orcs of the Ironroot Mountains. The Shadow Marches orcs, on the other hand, have little against the dwarves and vice versa.
Alex_ 01-12-07, 10:08 PM	Not all Orcs in Eberron are bad. Not all Dwarves in Eberrong are good. They still have a history of racial conflict in the Mror Holds, where some Orc tribes come into conflict with the Dwarven Clans there. They are, however, pretty much unrelated to the Orcs living in the Shadow Marches. However, I think some clans are friends with them. The Dwarves don't get along with each other too well either. So depending on what you want your experience with Orcs to be, you can view them as enemies, neutrally, or even as allies. Your Eberron Dwarf still gets all the normal bonuses and proficencies listed in the PHB. They usually don't agree with the cultures in Eberron. For instance, all Elves gain proficency with the longbow and longsword, whether they were raised amongst Humans on Khorvaire, amongst the scimitar wielding Valenar, or the contemplative and more magically inclined Aerenal Elves. They all automatically know how to use longbows and longswords. So ask your DM about it.
Just another user 01-13-07, 09:17 AM	What you must consider is that in Eberron where are you from is almost as important, if not more, than what race you are. A brelandish dwarf could have feel to have more in common with a brelandish half-orc than with an Mror Hold dwarf. Mror hodl dwarves have a strong rivality with the Jhorash'tar orcs, some of the mror dwarves could have a generic prejudice against all the orcs, it is not a generic thing but it can change from dwarf to dwarf.
Bluebrush 01-13-07, 09:51 AM	As for the racial combat bonuses, it may be that dwarf physiology favours combat styles which are effective of those favoured by their traditional enemies. Or maybe it's just reflected in all dwarf combat traditions.
Kreistor2 01-13-07, 09:57 AM	In general, orcs in Eberron are not considered as brutish as in other realms, but they are still uncivilized. They occupy two areas -- the Mror Holds as others have mentioned, and the Shadow Marches. The Shadow Marches orcs are far less classic. They are swamp dwellers. They serve as the protectors of Khorvaire against the larger efforts of the Daelkyr, who tend to operate below the SM more than anywhere else. Those orcs are far less monstrous than in other systems. They've never, at least in recorded history, turned into a horde and flooded into their neighbours' realms. Some worship nasty gods (Cults of the Dragon Below) but their primary religion is that of the druidic Gatekeepers. Even in the Mror Holds, the orcs are small in number. Yes, they have a traditional conflict with the dwarves, but again, they don't build up into hordes and then flood across lands to overwhelem and rule.
Nived 01-13-07, 11:52 AM	Now the thing I really ponder is how to justify the +4 dodge bonus to AC vs giants. With the Gnomes one can argue its not that far from Droaam where we know there are standing armies of ogre.... that at some point in the past there were conflicts.... But seriously how do you get Ogre or Trolls up to the Mror Holds (as they seem to be the only giants prominant at all in Khorvaire.)
The White Sorcerer 01-13-07, 12:44 PM	Droaam isn't the only place with significant ogre/troll populations, I imagine.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 01-13-07, 01:52 PM	In general, orcs in Eberron are not considered as brutish as in other realms, but they are still uncivilized. They occupy two areas -- the Mror Holds as others have mentioned, and the Shadow Marches. You forget the Demon Wastes, where Silver Flame worshipping orcs called the Ghaash'kala fight to keep the creatures of Khyber from emerging from the Labyrinth. The Shadow Marches orcs are far less classic. They are swamp dwellers. They serve as the protectors of Khorvaire against the larger efforts of the Daelkyr, who tend to operate below the SM more than anywhere else. Those orcs are far less monstrous than in other systems. They've never, at least in recorded history, turned into a horde and flooded into their neighbours' realms. Some worship nasty gods (Cults of the Dragon Below) but their primary religion is that of the druidic Gatekeepers. The Dragon Below/Gatekeeper split in the Shadow Marches is about 50/50 for the orcs, so the Gatekeeper religion isn't really their most dominant any more. But seriously how do you get Ogre or Trolls up to the Mror Holds (as they seem to be the only giants prominant at all in Khorvaire.) I imagine trolls and ogres live in the Mror Holds as well as the south west, just like orcs. Since trolls prefer mountainous terrain, the Mror Holds seems one of their more likely habitats. In fact, I've fleshed out the Mror Holds trolls quite a lot for my games.
Edymnion 01-13-07, 02:07 PM	In general, orcs in Eberron are not considered as brutish as in other realms, but they are still uncivilized.Personally, I put the Eberron Orcs a rung or two up the civlized ladder than Shifters. They're no city boys, but they've got a more stable and organized life than your standard shifter tribe.Now the thing I really ponder is how to justify the +4 dodge bonus to AC vs giants. ... But seriously how do you get Ogre or Trolls up to the Mror Holds (as they seem to be the only giants prominant at all in Khorvaire.)Hill Giants come to mind, and don't forget that the Dwarves originally came from Frostfell where they could have had to deal with Frost Giants. Really, you just have to let go of the idea that all giants need to be Xen'Drik giants, and you can put them pretty much where ever you want. I personally make Xen'Drik giants be Eldritch Giants, and all the rest of the normal giants are just big people across the rest of the world.
The White Sorcerer 01-13-07, 02:30 PM	I personally make Xen'Drik giants be Eldritch Giants, and all the rest of the normal giants are just big people across the rest of the world. Hmm... Eldritch giants seem a bit too advanced to represent the average modern Xen'drik giant.
Alex_ 01-13-07, 03:37 PM	Hmm... Eldritch giants seem a bit too advanced to represent the average modern Xen'drik giant. Perhaps the Eldritch Giants in his Xendrik haven't fallen as far from their magical roots as the Giants in the core setting.
The White Sorcerer 01-13-07, 03:58 PM	Perhaps the Eldritch Giants in his Xendrik haven't fallen as far from their magical roots as the Giants in the core setting. Sure, but those would be exceptions. Most Xen'drik giants these days are hill giants and such.
Alex_ 01-13-07, 04:23 PM	Sure, but those would be exceptions. Yeah it would be. It's his setting, and is a houserule.
mhacdebhandia 01-13-07, 05:18 PM	Personally, I put the Eberron Orcs a rung or two up the civlized ladder than Shifters. They're no city boys, but they've got a more stable and organized life than your standard shifter tribe. Especially those orcs associated with House Tharashk and the city of Zarash'ak.
Edymnion 01-13-07, 06:49 PM	Hmm... Eldritch giants seem a bit too advanced to represent the average modern Xen'drik giant. Perhaps the Eldritch Giants in his Xendrik haven't fallen as far from their magical roots as the Giants in the core setting. Sure, but those would be exceptions. Most Xen'drik giants these days are hill giants and such.Thats not exactly what I meant. I meant that my Age of Giants giants were Eldritch Giants. The smatterings of what are left are mechanically hill giants and the ilk, although I do still have a few glory age giants still out there. And if the PCs run into any mummified giants, they'll be mummified Eldritch Giants.
The White Sorcerer 01-13-07, 07:41 PM	Thats not exactly what I meant. I meant that my Age of Giants giants were Eldritch Giants. Ah. My mistake. That makes sense. I, too, consider the eldritch giants as the closest thing to the ancient giants.
ArcTan 01-14-07, 01:49 AM	Your Eberron Dwarf still gets all the normal bonuses and proficencies listed in the PHB. They usually don't agree with the cultures in Eberron. For instance, all Elves gain proficency with the longbow and longsword, whether they were raised amongst Humans on Khorvaire, amongst the scimitar wielding Valenar, or the contemplative and more magically inclined Aerenal Elves. They all automatically know how to use longbows and longswords. So ask your DM about it. One of Keith's Dragonshards specifically changes Tairnadal Elves' proficiency from longsword to scimitar. As for the Elves in general, the Elves do have very long lives and very fresh memories of very bloody warfare -- I don't see why weapons training wouldn't be more of a cultural universal for Elves than Humans. And the way the other races were written was intended to fit with the D&D racial traits. The Dwarves, for instance, maintained their independence only thanks to generations of constant struggle against the Dhakaani goblinoids and their orcish neighbors, and their whole martial tradition has evolved around that. The Gnomes similarly have a deep and lasting hatred of Dhakaan and Dhakaan's sometime orcish allies and a long, savage history of making war on those larger than them before they achieved their present state as a Switzerland-like power broker.
The White Sorcerer 01-14-07, 07:17 AM	The Gnomes similarly have a deep and lasting hatred of Dhakaan and Dhakaan's sometime orcish allies Gnomes don't get a bonus vs. orcs.
goblin_pride 01-14-07, 08:42 AM	Gnomes don't get a bonus vs. orcs. That's just 'cause the orcs didn't do too much during that whole incident in Zil. The lazy buggers were too busy watching the skies and talking to the trees.
Alex_ 01-14-07, 10:53 AM	One of Keith's Dragonshards specifically changes Tairnadal Elves' proficiency from longsword to scimitar. As for the Elves in general, the Elves do have very long lives and very fresh memories of very bloody warfare -- I don't see why weapons training wouldn't be more of a cultural universal for Elves than Humans. Few Elves alive today were present during the conflict with the Giants or Dragons. Only the Taerdanel fought with the Goblins or maintained what seemed to be a ppopular martial culture. Khorvaire Elves are raised pretty much like Humans of the 5 nations. There was a war, but not all of them were involved, and it doesn't make sense for EVERY Elf to be proficient with a couple of weapons they'll never really use any more than every Human, every urban Halfling, or every Half-Elf. They are all very different culturally, but just because each culture has war in it's history, it means every single member of that race has practiced to master the exact same weapons (with the exception of scimitar for Valenar as an optional rule)? Come on. It's obvious that Eberron was hindered more than helped by the PHB in this instance. And the way the other races were written was intended to fit with the D&D racial traits. The Dwarves, for instance, maintained their independence only thanks to generations of constant struggle against the Dhakaani goblinoids and their orcish neighbors, and their whole martial tradition has evolved around that. The Gnomes similarly have a deep and lasting hatred of Dhakaan and Dhakaan's sometime orcish allies and a long, savage history of making war on those larger than them before they achieved their present state as a Switzerland-like power broker. These are (very good) attempts to explain away the silliness of the DnD racial bonuses and modifiers. However, there are Gnome familiies that have lived in Sharn for generations, and have just as much knowledge of Goblinoid war tactics as the Human next to them. There are Dwarves who born and raised in Thrane, where they probably never encountered Orcs in any decent numbers- certainly not enough to be given a bonus against them compared to any other race. Kieth and the other folks working in Eberron did the best they could, but the PHB cultural assumptions and related mechanics about every individual of every race is something of a limiting factor if you want to change things up a bit. A WOTC published set of complete alternate rules for Racial traits and modifiers for PHB races that don't also make cultural assumptions would help. The DMG offers suggestsions, but leaves creation and balance up to the DM, while Unearthed Arcana offers regional variants, but still makes assumptions about culture. But like I said, ask the DM. He may have his own set of options or may be able to come up with some houserules to adress it if your Dwarf, for any variety of reasons, DIDN'T train to become better at fighting Goblins and Orcs, or your Elf DIDN'T train to become proficient with the longsword and longbow.
Arcane Guyver 01-14-07, 06:07 PM	A WOTC published set of complete alternate rules for Racial traits and modifiers for PHB races that don't also make cultural assumptions would help. Quoted for emphasis. Not to jump on the whole 4e wagon here, but this is one of those things I hope they change for it (if and when it comes). The problem is coming up with good replacement abilities for the culture-based stuff that won't unbalance the elf, dwarf, and gnome. And if you really want the cultural stuff (like elven weapon proficiencies), mayhap an extra 1st-level feat that is based on background would be in order. Bonus languages are also a thing of frustration for me, here...I'm thinking of just letting all races have free access to languages. For example, eliminate the dwarven cultural traits and give them...I dunno...the 'Earth Sense' feat from Races of Stone. Then the dwarf could take 'Mror Combat Traditions' background feat, which would grant weapon familiarity with dwarven weapons, attack bonuses against goblins and orcs, and the dodge bonus against giants.
Alex_ 01-14-07, 06:23 PM	I think they might want to kind of start over with them. Keep the bonuses and penalties to Attributes, but totally redo the other bonuses from scratch.
PlaDeDump 01-16-07, 08:54 AM	Maybe the bonuses dwarves get against giants, goblinoids, and Orcs are for use for PCs only. This way, a player can say his/her character knows how to battle giants, et al, but not every dwarf has that knowledge. This can be a bonus for players and not mess up the setting by saying all have this battle knowledge.
Evilmonster 01-16-07, 09:31 PM	Well, I figgure that the Dwarfs were alone aginst the goblin and orc natives for hundreds of years before the humans showed up and 'civilized' the contenent. So my dwarfs keep thier attack bonus aginst those guys. But I switched out the elf's find-doors-without-looking thing for the dwarf's dodge bonus -vs- giants. I figgure that dwarfs, being all famiular with engenering, would have the eyes for that sorta thing. And the elfs have the history of fighting giants. Personaly I like it quite a bit more that way.