Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Azarias 04-09-05, 03:14 PM	Warning, looong post. Only read this if you're really bored, or like Eberron an awful lot ;) I like Eberron's ambiguous approach to alignment, but have concerns about some of the ways it interracts with D&D specifics. Paladins, for example, and undead. If mindless undead are still Neutral Evil, does a paladin born in Karrnath take on the whole army? - etc etc. My greatest concern is that the ambiguity makes clerics and druids even more powerful than they already are: the relaxations of alignment rules for divine spellcasters, and the ability to cast a whole array of aligned spells, gives a boost to the two classes who need it the least. So I'm thinking about trying this. I'm not running a game yet, so I've got time to tinker around. I'd be interested to know what y'all think. Any views on the system below would be really useful. 'Inherent Alignment: True Good, vile Evil, unswerving Lawfulness and heartfelt faith in Chaos are rare, occult beliefs in Eberron, comprehended by the few and incomprehensible to the masses. For PCs and NPCs who devote themselves to such things, alignment becomes a source of power as well as vulnerability. The vast majority of NPCs will be Neutral, but concern themselves little with the nature of Neutrality: they are as likely to vacillate between extremes as they are to follow a balanced philosophy. The world of aligned conflict goes on unbeknownst to them, for the most part, and its effects are often imperceptible to them. Inherent alignment is an extraordinary ability, possessed automatically by some planar beings, and acquired by those of exceptionally powerful beliefs and devotions. Inherence is divisible: alignments may be Inherent along one axis (Lawful-Chaotic or Good-Evil), both axes, or neither. All natives of aligned planes are Inherently aligned along both axes. All divine spellcasters – including both rangers and paladins – become Inherently aligned along both axes on taking up their faiths, and retain Inherence as long as they hold to their beliefs and alignment. Assassins and Blackguards become Inherently Evil on achieving prestige class status. Monks become Inherently Lawful at the same point their unarmed strikes acquire the Lawful descriptor (ie at 10th level), and remain so as long as they maintain their philosophies. Any creature whose natural attacks bear an alignment descriptor is Inherently aligned along the appropriate axis or axes. Any entity whose Damage Reduction is bypassed by aligned weapons will possess an Inherently opposed alignment. A creature whose natural weapons strike as both Lawful and Evil weapons is Inherent Lawful Inherent Evil. A creature whose Damage Reduction is pierced by Evil weapons is inherently Good. Inherent alignment is not restricted to the divine spellcasting classes. Unusual PCs and NPCs of any class may acquire an Inherent alignment if they devote themselves deeply to an aligned belief. Thus, divine spellcasting PCs automatically acquire an Inherent alignment, while a PC rogue or wizard would need to justify Inherence through background or roleplaying. A sorcerer who devoted his life to creating new spells by conducting experiments on innocents might acquire an Inherent Evil alignment, for example, while a rogue who swore to protect an urban underclass might become Inherently Good. Inherent alignments bring both great power and significant danger. On the one hand, aligned items, spells and abilities can only be used by those with Inherent alignments. A paladin smites evil and an evil cleric utters a Blasphemy by virtue of Inherent alignment. A good cleric could not cast Blasphemy any more than an evil cleric could cast Align Weapon (Good). A Chaotic Good fighter with no true conviction in his beliefs will gain no especial advantage from wielding a Holy Weapon. An Inherently Good cleric could cast Align Weapon (Good) on fifty arrows, but the projectiles would function normally in the hands of one lacking conviction in their power. On the other hand, effects which target creatures according to alignment will only affect creatures which are Inherently aligned. This includes the specific properties and effects of many spells, weapons, abilities and powers. It applies to effects targetted at certain alignments, but not to those targetted at the absence of alignment. For example, Blasphemy (which targets all non-evil creatures) will effect a crowd of Neutral Good creatures regardless of their inherence: in effect, Inherent Evil grants immunity to the vile words of the spell. A Holy sword, however, is forged to slay fiends and demons, not petty thieves and greedy merchants, and will only inflict bonus damage against Inherently Evil foes. Some spells have multiple effects, some of which apply to the Inherently aligned, some of which do not. For example, Eric (priest of Dol Dorn, alignment Inherent LG) is assaulted by Icthys the monk (alignment Inherent LE), Cacophonous the bard (alignment NE), and two fire elementals the latter has summoned from a scroll. Eric casts Protection from Evil as his assailants attack. Icthys hurls shuriken, Cacophonous casts Hold Person, and the elementals close to melee. Eric's spell works in the following ways: against Icthys's shuriken it provides a +2 deflection bonus, since Icthys is an Inherently evil foe: against Cacophonous's enchantment it provides no saving throw bonus, since the bard is not 'evil to the core'; however, the Hold Person is suppressed for the duration of the abjuration regardless, since Protection from Evil blocks such enchantments. The elementals are still warded out, since Protection from Evil prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures, and only Inherently Good summonses are immune to the effect. Had Cacophonous summoned celestial eagles, the creatures would not have been prevented from attacking Eric. There are two classes of spells which receive alignment descriptors in core D&D but which lose those descriptors in Eberron, and which can thus be cast by individuals without Inherent alignments. These are firstly, spells dealing with the undead, and secondly, all Conjuration (Summons) spells. In Eberron, the Negative and Positive Material Planes are considered no more Inherently aligned than the forces of electricity or magnetism. Because of this, undead and the Deathless are neither Inherently Evil nor Good. However, Unlife is cetainly believed to be 'evil' by most NPCs (and PCs), and undead creatures often loathe the living. Spells and powers associated with undead or the Deathless have no alignment descriptors in Eberron. This elimination of Good and Evil descriptors applies only to spells which are targetted at the unliving. Animate Dead is not an Evil spell: though evil men may use it to evil ends, it is itself amoral, using negative energy to create automata. Blasphemy, on the other hand, retains its Evil descriptor: its power is not drawn from Negativity, but from Inherent Evil. Mindless Undead are usually – but not Inherently – Neutral. Sentient Undead have the alignment description 'Usually Evil'. Conjuration (Summoning) spells are not Inherently aligned according to the creatures summoned or called, though Conjuration (Calling) spells are. Both Summoned and Called creatures are compelled to appear, but Summonses serve because they are forced to do so (rather than through any true desire or affiliation of beliefs) while Called creatures must agree to serve, and are rewarded for doing so. An Inherently Good cleric who attempted to call a named demon using Planar Ally or Gate would risk losing his Inherence, even if he called the fiend only order to kill it. On the other hand, an Inherently evil cleric might freely summon celestial creatures to die as they did his bidding. Lycanthropes in Eberron do not suffer an alignment change as a symptom of their condition, and lycanthropy does not confer an Inherent alignment in any case. A Lawful Good cleric infected by a werewolf will not lose his Inherent Goodness or Inherent Lawfulness automatically. If he does not struggle against his predatory nature, however, or revels in his wildly destructive power, he will eventually undergo an alignment change through an alteration in his beliefs, and will lose his Inherent alignment and divine powers in the process. Even so, his new alignment will not necessarily be one of Inherent CE. Most PCs in Eberron may change alignment without incurring penalties - alignment is not fundamental to the way they see themselves or the roads they have taken through life. PCs with Inherent alignments, however, risk much if they lose or abandon their Inherence. For divine spellcasters, Inherent alignment is a prerequisite for divine spellcasting and any associated extraordinary, spell-like and supernatural abilities. Once an Inherent alignment is manifested, such a character abandons it at her peril. One cleric of the Silver Flame may be Inherently Lawful Evil, and another Lawful Good, and both will continue to draw down divine power as long as they believe in themselves, but for both such characters, however, alignment change would reflect a shattering loss of faith and divine power. Non-divine spellcasting PCs who lose or abandon their Inherence are unable to continue in their current class, and must choose a new profession: their loss of belief is a life-changing incident. The paladin's code stands as written, but the holy warrior's ultimate fight is against the true forces of darkness - Inherent Evil and Chaos in all their manifold forms. Mundane evil and chaos pale in comparison to their true counterparts, and the paladin treats them accordingly. The paladin's definition of Evil is thus graduated. He will punish the street thug, but he will not look on him as an evil to be scourged from the face of the earth. A paladin might even associate with such a character, if the thug had sworn to kill a dretch or fiendish wolf, for example. Though the association would be difficult, and would require much forbearance on the part of the thug, the common purpose in fighting Inherent Evil would be of paramount importance, the association with mundane evil only secondary. In addition, the paladin will always be conscious of the mutability of mundane alignments: the Lawful Evil street thug he works with today may become the Lawful Good aspirant of tomorrow. Finally, since Inherent alignments are an extraordinary characteristic of individuals – not states or organisations – the paladin will rarely become involved in mundane wars, purges or crusades.
(Psi)SeveredHead 04-10-05, 09:35 PM	Warning, looong post. Only read this if you're really bored, or like Eberron an awful lot ;) I like Eberron's ambiguous approach to alignment, but have concerns about some of the ways it interracts with D&D specifics. Paladins, for example, and undead. If mindless undead are still Neutral Evil, does a paladin born in Karrnath take on the whole army? - etc etc. Only a foolish paladin would take on a whole army, even if he's assured they're all evil. My greatest concern is that the ambiguity makes clerics and druids even more powerful than they already are: the relaxations of alignment rules for divine spellcasters, and the ability to cast a whole array of aligned spells, gives a boost to the two classes who need it the least. IME, the alignment spells are pathetic. Blasphemy and holy word are exceptions, though - many people think they're broken because they can daze their opponents with no saving throws. IMO spells that are too specific in nature (eg they only target humanoids, they only target creatures of specific alignments) plain suck. But that's just me. So I'm thinking about trying this. I'm not running a game yet, so I've got time to tinker around. I'd be interested to know what y'all think. Any views on the system below would be really useful. 'Inherent Alignment: True Good, vile Evil, unswerving Lawfulness and heartfelt faith in Chaos are rare, occult beliefs in Eberron, comprehended by the few and incomprehensible to the masses. Sounds like allegiances in D20 Modern :) For PCs and NPCs who devote themselves to such things, alignment becomes a source of power as well as vulnerability. The vast majority of NPCs will be Neutral, but concern themselves little with the nature of Neutrality: they are as likely to vacillate between extremes as they are to follow a balanced philosophy. The world of aligned conflict goes on unbeknownst to them, for the most part, and its effects are often imperceptible to them. Inherent alignment is an extraordinary ability, possessed automatically by some planar beings, and acquired by those of exceptionally powerful beliefs and devotions. Inherence is divisible: alignments may be Inherent along one axis (Lawful-Chaotic or Good-Evil), both axes, or neither. All natives of aligned planes are Inherently aligned along both axes. All divine spellcasters – including both rangers and paladins – Hold on a minute. This applies to rangers and druids? I'm amazed that rangers would be held to any kind of alignment restrictions. (Honestly, rangers should never have been given spells in the first place.) become Inherently aligned along both axes on taking up their faiths, and retain Inherence as long as they hold to their beliefs and alignment. Assassins and Blackguards become Inherently Evil on achieving prestige class status. Monks become Inherently Lawful at the same point their unarmed strikes acquire the Lawful descriptor (ie at 10th level), and remain so as long as they maintain their philosophies. Any creature whose natural attacks bear an alignment descriptor is Inherently aligned along the appropriate axis or axes. Any entity whose Damage Reduction is bypassed by aligned weapons will possess an Inherently opposed alignment. A creature whose natural weapons strike as both Lawful and Evil weapons is Inherent Lawful Inherent Evil. A creature whose Damage Reduction is pierced by Evil weapons is inherently Good. Inherent alignment is not restricted to the divine spellcasting classes. Unusual PCs and NPCs of any class may acquire an Inherent alignment if they devote themselves deeply to an aligned belief. Thus, divine spellcasting PCs automatically acquire an Inherent alignment, while a PC rogue or wizard would need to justify Inherence through background or roleplaying. A sorcerer who devoted his life to creating new spells by conducting experiments on innocents might acquire an Inherent Evil alignment, for example, while a rogue who swore to protect an urban underclass might become Inherently Good. Inherent alignments bring both great power and significant danger. On the one hand, aligned items, spells and abilities can only be used by those with Inherent alignments. A paladin smites evil and an evil cleric utters a Blasphemy by virtue of Inherent alignment. A good cleric could not cast Blasphemy any more than an evil cleric could cast Align Weapon (Good). A Chaotic Good fighter with no true conviction in his beliefs will gain no especial advantage from wielding a Holy Weapon. An Inherently Good cleric could cast Align Weapon (Good) on fifty arrows, but the projectiles would function normally in the hands of one lacking conviction in their power. On the other hand, effects which target creatures according to alignment will only affect creatures which are Inherently aligned. This includes the specific properties and effects of many spells, weapons, abilities and powers. It applies to effects targetted at certain alignments, but not to those targetted at the absence of alignment. For example, Blasphemy (which targets all non-evil creatures) will effect a crowd of Neutral Good creatures regardless of their inherence: in effect, Inherent Evil grants immunity to the vile words of the spell. A Holy sword, however, is forged to slay fiends and demons, not petty thieves and greedy merchants, and will only inflict bonus damage against Inherently Evil foes. Fair enough, I guess. Does a ranger who is no longer inherently ... whatever alignment ... lose his spells? Not that I think they should have spells, but if you take their spells away you should compensate them. They're not a class for which alignment is important. We're talking about a setting where a ranger of can have any other alignment, and even change it once a week, without modifiers. I guess what I'm digging at is that this system should not affect ranger spellcasting one way or another. Some spells have multiple effects, some of which apply to the Inherently aligned, some of which do not. For example, Eric (priest of Dol Dorn, alignment Inherent LG) is assaulted by Icthys the monk (alignment Inherent LE), Cacophonous the bard (alignment NE), and two fire elementals the latter has summoned from a scroll. Eric casts Protection from Evil as his assailants attack. Icthys hurls shuriken, Cacophonous casts Hold Person, and the elementals close to melee. Eric's spell works in the following ways: against Icthys's shuriken it provides a +2 deflection bonus, since Icthys is an Inherently evil foe: against Cacophonous's enchantment it provides no saving throw bonus, since the bard is not 'evil to the core'; however, the Hold Person is suppressed for the duration of the abjuration regardless, since Protection from Evil blocks such enchantments. The elementals are still warded out, since Protection from Evil prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures, and only Inherently Good summonses are immune to the effect. Had Cacophonous summoned celestial eagles, the creatures would not have been prevented from attacking Eric. Sounds pretty good. Not that it nerfs Protection from Evil, as that spell doesn't stack well anyway. There are two classes of spells which receive alignment descriptors in core D&D but which lose those descriptors in Eberron, and which can thus be cast by individuals without Inherent alignments. These are firstly, spells dealing with the undead, and secondly, all Conjuration (Summons) spells. In Eberron, the Negative and Positive Material Planes are considered no more Inherently aligned than the forces of electricity or magnetism. Because of this, undead and the Deathless are neither Inherently Evil nor Good. However, Unlife is cetainly believed to be 'evil' by most NPCs (and PCs), and undead creatures often loathe the living. Spells and powers associated with undead or the Deathless have no alignment descriptors in Eberron. This elimination of Good and Evil descriptors applies only to spells which are targetted at the unliving. Animate Dead is not an Evil spell: though evil men may use it to evil ends, it is itself amoral, using negative energy to create automata. Blasphemy, on the other hand, retains its Evil descriptor: its power is not drawn from Negativity, but from Inherent Evil. Mindless Undead are usually – but not Inherently – Neutral. Sentient Undead have the alignment description 'Usually Evil'. Conjuration (Summoning) spells are not Inherently aligned according to the creatures summoned or called, though Conjuration (Calling) spells are. Why the difference? If you sumon the essence of a creature that is evil to the core, shouldn't that be just as evil as calling the creature itself? The paladin's code stands as written[/qutoe] Still a great way to make them unplayable :rolleyes: The prohibitions against fooling opponents (or being forced to out-Aes Sedai them) and stealth "except as a last resort" are pure foolishness IMO. [quote]but the holy warrior's ultimate fight is against the true forces of darkness - Inherent Evil and Chaos in all their manifold forms. Mundane evil and chaos pale in comparison to their true counterparts, and the paladin treats them accordingly. The paladin's definition of Evil is thus graduated. He will punish the street thug, but he will not look on him as an evil to be scourged from the face of the earth. A paladin might even associate with such a character, if the thug had sworn to kill a dretch or fiendish wolf, for example. Though the association would be difficult, and would require much forbearance on the part of the thug, the common purpose in fighting Inherent Evil would be of paramount importance, the association with mundane evil only secondary. In addition, the paladin will always be conscious of the mutability of mundane alignments: the Lawful Evil street thug he works with today may become the Lawful Good aspirant of tomorrow. Finally, since Inherent alignments are an extraordinary characteristic of individuals – not states or organisations – the paladin will rarely become involved in mundane wars, purges or crusades. Makes sense. Well, sort of. What if he runs into an inherently evil rogue. Will the rogue appear different to him from a regular evil rogue when he uses [i]detect evil? Or, better yet, should detect evil only work on inherently evil creatures?
The White Sorcerer 04-10-05, 10:28 PM	My greatest concern is that the ambiguity makes clerics and druids even more powerful than they already are: the relaxations of alignment rules for divine spellcasters, and the ability to cast a whole array of aligned spells, gives a boost to the two classes who need it the least.Druids still need the neutral component in their alignments, just like paladins still need to be lawful good. The alignment restriction was lifted for clerics only.
Azarias 04-17-05, 04:20 AM	soorry - been away a week. Thanks for replying guys - Karrnath paladin/Karrnathi undead army: heh. Okay let's say he's not Lawful Stupid. By the core rules he'd still try and do something about the use of NE undead, wouldn't he? He might be more circumspect, but by the book the presence of an undead army would render it almost impossible for a paladin to coexist peacefully with the authorities in Karrnath. That strikes me as unfortunate - espceially as mindless undead only became NE in 3.5. Druids do need their neutrality, but that doesn't stop them gaining power in Eberron. A NG druid could summon a NE salamander, a NE druid a giant owl etc etc (actually, they could do this by the book in the standard game, but that's only because they forgot [I guess] to include alignment restrictions in Summon Nature's Ally). The difference between Summonings and Callings is big. A Summoning gives the creature no choice in what it does - for the summons itself, it's a kind of compulsion spell. A Called creature, on the other hand, makes a bargain with the caster, a la Faust - sold souls and all that. A NE cleric who summoned a NG celestial hippogriff to die for him in the cause of evil is behaving with suitable evillness, don't you think? A NG cleric who calls and deals with an osyluth is risking his soul, though. I thought the one should be unaligned, the other aligned. Druids and Clerics in Eberron do gain power. The ambiguity allows them to cast a wider range of spells (less so for druids, but still - as if they need an advantage!), and play more freely. I have nothing against free play - in fact, I like the Eberron alignment ambiguity very much - but it seems to me that clerics especially benefit, that paladins have to be shoehorned in a wee bit, and that a bit of work therefore needs to be done with the alignment system for the setting.