Eberron alignments [Archive] - Wizards Community

Eberron alignments [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
greedo99
01-22-05, 12:32 AM just a general question, because of the kind of alignment blurs in Eberron would you let a paladin slide with a NG, LN or a CG?
jonthegm
01-22-05, 12:34 AM just a general question, because of the kind of alignment blurs in Eberron would you let a paladin slide with a NG, LN or a CG?
None of them. Paladins are held to a sterner standard. LG or nothing.
Dauntless
01-22-05, 12:48 AM None of them. Paladins are held to a sterner standard. LG or nothing.

What he said.
N'wah
01-22-05, 12:50 AM If you've got Unearthed Arcana, you could use the variant paladin of freedom (CG), paladin of tyranny (LE), and paladin of slaughter (CE), but that's about it. The paladin class is supposed to be a bit extreme in its alignment selection.
JBW
01-22-05, 01:55 AM Since you seem interested in houserules on this issue, as the rules are pretty clear, I personally allow Paladins to be "any good". Their powers (Detect X and Smite X) are already based upon anti-evil and not anti-chaos so it's pretty easy to do. Specifically 'Lawful' spells are removed from the spell list. Paladins code is adjusted to place all emphasis on good above all - most paladins are neutral good and lawful or chaotic just represents variations in the approach a particular paladin prefers. This opens up a great variety of RP options in the paladin class while still restricting it to 'good guys' - it works quite well in my game but it may not fit your tastes.

Jay
Launchpad McKwak
01-22-05, 02:20 AM just a general question, because of the kind of alignment blurs in Eberron would you let a paladin slide with a NG, LN or a CG?

I thought the alignment blurs were in the context of races/monsters, and the alignments given to them in the monster manuals. e.g. hobgoblins as lawful evil, treants as neutral good.

Whereas in Eberron, I think they're trying to say, "Ignore this part. It's a generalization, a stereotyping of our/their/your race!"

As opposed to class alignments, which I think were written in stone for the purposes of game balance, or philosophical outlook.
Ponderosa
01-22-05, 10:22 AM That's not completely true. Clerics, for example, can change alignments from that of their god and still remain clerics, so there is some variance allowed with classes and alignments, too. Paladins are the ones that are different. Assuming you're playing with the core paladin, then paladins in Eberron are held to the highest standard. They must always be lawful good and conform to their code of conduct. It even says in one line in the Eberron book that if you want to play a holy warrior that is questioning his belief or is overly ruthless and harsh, then you should play a fighter / cleric and have it be a templar of a certain church.

I personally really like that about paladins. Even in Eberron, a land of blurred alignments and shades of gray, paladins will always be the bastions of order and goodness that they always were. You can't always trust the guards, your employer, or even your friends, but you can always trust a paladin to do what he knows is right.
Beleriphon
01-22-05, 11:34 AM I personally really like that about paladins. Even in Eberron, a land of blurred alignments and shades of gray, paladins will always be the bastions of order and goodness that they always were. You can't always trust the guards, your employer, or even your friends, but you can always trust a paladin to do what he knows is right.

Exactly. In Eberron alignments are the same, its just that anybody can by any alignment. Chaotic Evil is still Chaotic Evil and a paladin sitll has to be Lawful Good.
WilliamPall
01-22-05, 01:12 PM One of the fun things about this alignment blur of Eberron, in regard to Paladins and Clerics, is that the Gods of Eberron can have followers of any alignment. So technically, there can be Paladins of any of the Gods. Blood of the Vol, The Keeper, The Cult of the Dragon Below . . . all could have paladin's.

But the paladin's would all be LG, no matter what the deity's alignment, AND the paladin's view of the God would be very different than an evil follower of the same God.
Uller999
01-22-05, 05:41 PM While I like the Unearthed Arcana mod for paladins I also think that in Eberron paladins should maintain their rigid adherance to LG. The reason is as everyone has said above, they serve as the true source of lawful goodness without resorting the planes. A free willed being has chosen (or been chosen) to work for the proactive good of the society and the common man etc. Considering that everything else in eberron (dragons, churches, guardians of the law, etc) is so ambiguous as to what alignment they possese and how big a deal it is; I think paladins staying as LG is a good offset to things like the Lord of Dust, Dreaming Dark, etc.
Don't get me wrong though, I really like the fact that alignment is not as strict in eberron but for paladins I think its an integral part of their class to be lawful good.
Radiating Gnome
01-22-05, 09:36 PM One of my players and I are having an interesting discussion that is sort of parallel to this.

She's playing a cleric, not a paladin, who has become an exorcist of the silver flame -- which is still not quite as austere as a paladin (any good, not LG) but can have some of the same flavor.

One of the things I've been trying to impress upon my players is the idea that the Gods are distant in Eberron -- the don't get directly involved with the lives of mortals. In part, that's can be part of what makes it possible for a cleric to be of any alignment, no matter whom he serves.

She wants her character to have a close, intimate connection to the Silver Flame, the way clerics and paladins have connections with their dieties in more typical D&D, and I'm not letting her, basically.

The important thing, for me as DM, is that her character BELIEVES that she has a close personal connection with the silver flame -- but that belief doesn't make it so in game terms. She belongs to an order of exorcists, but she can't count on the Silver Flame to reach down from heaven and smite those members of the order that don't stick to their alignment and credo. The exorcists, like everyone else, will have to police their own ranks.

Given that, it's my opinion that there COULD be exorcists who have drifted from the "true" path. And the same might be true of Paladins.

I do think, though, that a Paladin, and to a lesser extend an Exorcist, who drifts from the path, would suffer some lost of class abilities -- not because the gods have taken them away, but because the Paladin's inner compas isn't quite pointing at true north anymore. The Paladin would lose the ability to detect evil, because his sense of evil is muddy an indistinct, etc. So, many of the same penalties would be assessed, but the source of the penalty would be the paladin himself, and not the diety, who is far too busy doing god things to think about whether or not a piddly little paladin in Khorviare is still making his bed with proper hospital corners every morning.

As for whether you could have a PC paladin whose "natural" alignment is something other than LG, I think I'd have to say no -- not for the PC, at any rate, unless the PC were willing to play an underpowered Paladin, who didn't have access to some of the Paladin powers (and without new compensating powers).

-rg
Doctor X
01-23-05, 04:31 AM I personally really like that about paladins. Even in Eberron, a land of blurred alignments and shades of gray, paladins will always be the bastions of order and goodness that they always were. You can't always trust the guards, your employer, or even your friends, but you can always trust a paladin to do what he knows is right.

Can you really trust them? He might do what he thinks is right, but that doesn't mean he's infallable. See the Silver Inqusition for examples... they didn't just kill the evil lycanthropes... oh no. They killed any that they found, without discrimination, not even those who surrendered.

Allignment is meant to be a grey area in Eberron, and I'm thinking that a paladin doesn't need to be a perfect champion of good... Just like Red and Black Dragons don't necessarliy have to rape and burn everything in their paths.

Now, this isn't to say that a person who is blatantly evil should be able to have any of the paladin's class features... but one paladin's view of what is "Good" and what is "Lawful" doesn't necessarily have to match with the rest of the world.

Have any of you guys looked at the Shadowbane Inquisitive class in Complete Adventurer? I think it fits this situation to the "T." A paladin might still view himself as lawful good, yet still do very horrible things to accomplish his goals.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
greedo99 01-22-05, 12:32 AM	just a general question, because of the kind of alignment blurs in Eberron would you let a paladin slide with a NG, LN or a CG?
jonthegm 01-22-05, 12:34 AM	just a general question, because of the kind of alignment blurs in Eberron would you let a paladin slide with a NG, LN or a CG? None of them. Paladins are held to a sterner standard. LG or nothing.
Dauntless 01-22-05, 12:48 AM	None of them. Paladins are held to a sterner standard. LG or nothing. What he said.
N'wah 01-22-05, 12:50 AM	If you've got Unearthed Arcana, you could use the variant paladin of freedom (CG), paladin of tyranny (LE), and paladin of slaughter (CE), but that's about it. The paladin class is supposed to be a bit extreme in its alignment selection.
JBW 01-22-05, 01:55 AM	Since you seem interested in houserules on this issue, as the rules are pretty clear, I personally allow Paladins to be "any good". Their powers (Detect X and Smite X) are already based upon anti-evil and not anti-chaos so it's pretty easy to do. Specifically 'Lawful' spells are removed from the spell list. Paladins code is adjusted to place all emphasis on good above all - most paladins are neutral good and lawful or chaotic just represents variations in the approach a particular paladin prefers. This opens up a great variety of RP options in the paladin class while still restricting it to 'good guys' - it works quite well in my game but it may not fit your tastes. Jay
Launchpad McKwak 01-22-05, 02:20 AM	just a general question, because of the kind of alignment blurs in Eberron would you let a paladin slide with a NG, LN or a CG? I thought the alignment blurs were in the context of races/monsters, and the alignments given to them in the monster manuals. e.g. hobgoblins as lawful evil, treants as neutral good. Whereas in Eberron, I think they're trying to say, "Ignore this part. It's a generalization, a stereotyping of our/their/your race!" As opposed to class alignments, which I think were written in stone for the purposes of game balance, or philosophical outlook.
Ponderosa 01-22-05, 10:22 AM	That's not completely true. Clerics, for example, can change alignments from that of their god and still remain clerics, so there is some variance allowed with classes and alignments, too. Paladins are the ones that are different. Assuming you're playing with the core paladin, then paladins in Eberron are held to the highest standard. They must always be lawful good and conform to their code of conduct. It even says in one line in the Eberron book that if you want to play a holy warrior that is questioning his belief or is overly ruthless and harsh, then you should play a fighter / cleric and have it be a templar of a certain church. I personally really like that about paladins. Even in Eberron, a land of blurred alignments and shades of gray, paladins will always be the bastions of order and goodness that they always were. You can't always trust the guards, your employer, or even your friends, but you can always trust a paladin to do what he knows is right.
Beleriphon 01-22-05, 11:34 AM	I personally really like that about paladins. Even in Eberron, a land of blurred alignments and shades of gray, paladins will always be the bastions of order and goodness that they always were. You can't always trust the guards, your employer, or even your friends, but you can always trust a paladin to do what he knows is right. Exactly. In Eberron alignments are the same, its just that anybody can by any alignment. Chaotic Evil is still Chaotic Evil and a paladin sitll has to be Lawful Good.
WilliamPall 01-22-05, 01:12 PM	One of the fun things about this alignment blur of Eberron, in regard to Paladins and Clerics, is that the Gods of Eberron can have followers of any alignment. So technically, there can be Paladins of any of the Gods. Blood of the Vol, The Keeper, The Cult of the Dragon Below . . . all could have paladin's. But the paladin's would all be LG, no matter what the deity's alignment, AND the paladin's view of the God would be very different than an evil follower of the same God.
Uller999 01-22-05, 05:41 PM	While I like the Unearthed Arcana mod for paladins I also think that in Eberron paladins should maintain their rigid adherance to LG. The reason is as everyone has said above, they serve as the true source of lawful goodness without resorting the planes. A free willed being has chosen (or been chosen) to work for the proactive good of the society and the common man etc. Considering that everything else in eberron (dragons, churches, guardians of the law, etc) is so ambiguous as to what alignment they possese and how big a deal it is; I think paladins staying as LG is a good offset to things like the Lord of Dust, Dreaming Dark, etc. Don't get me wrong though, I really like the fact that alignment is not as strict in eberron but for paladins I think its an integral part of their class to be lawful good.
Radiating Gnome 01-22-05, 09:36 PM	One of my players and I are having an interesting discussion that is sort of parallel to this. She's playing a cleric, not a paladin, who has become an exorcist of the silver flame -- which is still not quite as austere as a paladin (any good, not LG) but can have some of the same flavor. One of the things I've been trying to impress upon my players is the idea that the Gods are distant in Eberron -- the don't get directly involved with the lives of mortals. In part, that's can be part of what makes it possible for a cleric to be of any alignment, no matter whom he serves. She wants her character to have a close, intimate connection to the Silver Flame, the way clerics and paladins have connections with their dieties in more typical D&D, and I'm not letting her, basically. The important thing, for me as DM, is that her character BELIEVES that she has a close personal connection with the silver flame -- but that belief doesn't make it so in game terms. She belongs to an order of exorcists, but she can't count on the Silver Flame to reach down from heaven and smite those members of the order that don't stick to their alignment and credo. The exorcists, like everyone else, will have to police their own ranks. Given that, it's my opinion that there COULD be exorcists who have drifted from the "true" path. And the same might be true of Paladins. I do think, though, that a Paladin, and to a lesser extend an Exorcist, who drifts from the path, would suffer some lost of class abilities -- not because the gods have taken them away, but because the Paladin's inner compas isn't quite pointing at true north anymore. The Paladin would lose the ability to detect evil, because his sense of evil is muddy an indistinct, etc. So, many of the same penalties would be assessed, but the source of the penalty would be the paladin himself, and not the diety, who is far too busy doing god things to think about whether or not a piddly little paladin in Khorviare is still making his bed with proper hospital corners every morning. As for whether you could have a PC paladin whose "natural" alignment is something other than LG, I think I'd have to say no -- not for the PC, at any rate, unless the PC were willing to play an underpowered Paladin, who didn't have access to some of the Paladin powers (and without new compensating powers). -rg
Doctor X 01-23-05, 04:31 AM	I personally really like that about paladins. Even in Eberron, a land of blurred alignments and shades of gray, paladins will always be the bastions of order and goodness that they always were. You can't always trust the guards, your employer, or even your friends, but you can always trust a paladin to do what he knows is right. Can you really trust them? He might do what he thinks is right, but that doesn't mean he's infallable. See the Silver Inqusition for examples... they didn't just kill the evil lycanthropes... oh no. They killed any that they found, without discrimination, not even those who surrendered. Allignment is meant to be a grey area in Eberron, and I'm thinking that a paladin doesn't need to be a perfect champion of good... Just like Red and Black Dragons don't necessarliy have to rape and burn everything in their paths. Now, this isn't to say that a person who is blatantly evil should be able to have any of the paladin's class features... but one paladin's view of what is "Good" and what is "Lawful" doesn't necessarily have to match with the rest of the world. Have any of you guys looked at the Shadowbane Inquisitive class in Complete Adventurer? I think it fits this situation to the "T." A paladin might still view himself as lawful good, yet still do very horrible things to accomplish his goals.