Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Azual 08-12-05, 10:22 PM	Here is the thing with one of my players. He is playing a Warforged Artificer, and he is at level one. He wanted to make an alternate way of casting scrolls, and so he designed a set of shoulder pauldrons that fit over his shoulders and held special scrolls that were in the shape of 1/2 inch thick, 3 inch diameter circular adamantine plates that fit onto special spaces on his armor and lock into place. By turning the plate and pulling it out he can remove the scroll and cast it. I thought, why not. It fit the requirements on the CA's guidelines for alternate scrolls, and it added a bit of flair not usully shown. Besides paper is so flesh-races. Now, heres my problem. he wants a Soarsled and he wants it as soon as he can create it. However, its 19,000 gold to make and it is not available anytime soon. However, he has an idea. He believes that if he sells these special scroll pauldrons, they will be all the rage and he will be able to sell them for money. However, he works for House Cannith and he wants all the profits. I just want to know how does copyright law work in Eberron, if any. I would guess that house Sivis would verify all copyrights, but do you thinkt his is a good idea?
Charles Phipps 08-12-05, 10:29 PM	Copyright law, as such, doesn't exist in Eberron. There's nothing legally preventing really House Deneith from manufacturing warforged save it would grossly endanger their relationships and the balance of power. Contracts exist but they must state exclusivity of deals. You won't be legally suffering any reprocussions from cannith but they might be seriously irked at you.
Azual 08-12-05, 10:32 PM	i mean, if you are selling artifacts from Xen'Drik in Breland they have your ID, adress, even the name and race of your first date within five minutes. You cant seriously mean that there is no copyright law.
gaiden 08-12-05, 10:35 PM	Off the cuff, I don't see what copyright has to do with this case. Now, as an alternate mechanism for inscribing a spell as a scroll... the method could certainly be patentable, assuming there's a patent system in Eberron. House Cannith is the big producer/manufacturer of the setting, and it seems like they, through either in-House production or through the various guilds, keep tabs on most of the physical production of the setting, with a few noteworthy exceptions (soarwood vessels being one). It seems to me that Eberron relies less on legal enforcement (patents, in this case), and more on the keeping of trade secrets. Thus, House Cannith is the only group capable of making the Warforged, because they have not just the creation forges, but also the knowledge that went into designing and building them. In real life, to patent something, you have to make all of the technical information that you wish to patent open to public scrutiny. In this case, Cannith relies more on what would correspond to real-world trade secret laws, meaning that as long as the methods are kept secret, Cannith is more or less guaranteed to be the only people with that knowledge. Similarly, the gnomes jealously guard the knowledge of elemental binding. In your case, I would say that House Cannith might have some sort of standing agreement that whatever new knowledge any employees create either pass into the House's hands, either immediately or, for a guild member rather than a blooded member, after a reasonable period of time. Either way, Cannith would certainly expect to see its share of the profits. There are more story hooks involved in this scheme, though. There will be other crafters, either affiliated with Cannith or not, who will want to learn the secret of this new alternate scroll construction, and your player may have to fend off hostile economic activity, thieves, assassins, and blackmailers.
makeshiftwings 08-12-05, 10:35 PM	What you're talking about isn't copyright, it's patent. But I also doubt they have any patent laws. Edit: gaiden got there first ;)
gaiden 08-12-05, 10:42 PM	Copyright law, as such, doesn't exist in Eberron. There's nothing legally preventing really House Deneith from manufacturing warforged save it would grossly endanger their relationships and the balance of power. Contracts exist but they must state exclusivity of deals. You won't be legally suffering any reprocussions from cannith but they might be seriously irked at you. Patent, not copyright, as such probably does not exist, and I'm pretty sure the Treaty of Thronehold prevents anybody, not just Deneith or Cannith, from making the 'forged, since one of the conditions of the treaty was that Cannith dismantle all creation forges and cease production of the warforged. Even without this legal stick to wave around, Deneith could never make a warforged unless they went so far as to steal a creation forge and kidnap a marked Cannith heir to run it for them (though it has been speculated that this is exactly what the LoB has done). Now, copyright... I could easily see copyright laws existing. Everyone from the Korranberg Chronicle (seeking to control replication/distribution of their paper) to the entertainers of Phiarlan would benefit from a legal system which defines 'ownership' and authorship of works such as newspapers, songs, plays, and so on. Playing an adventure based on a copyright dispute ("Oh noes, a Thuranni elven performer is singing a Phiarlan composer's aria without permission!") is probably not the most exciting prospect, but for a verisimilitude of setting, it would make sense that the Code of Galifar has some sort of copyright provision. Edit: Sirian cites Kieth, so let's go with that answer instead. It's probably right, anyway, and I like the thought of a gnome hunting down plagarists. :D
Siran Dunmorgan 08-12-05, 10:43 PM	Here is the thing with one of my players. He is playing a Warforged Artificer, and he is at level one. He wanted to make an alternate way of casting scrolls, and so he designed a set of shoulder pauldrons that fit over his shoulders and held special scrolls that were in the shape of 1/2 inch thick, 3 inch diameter circular adamantine plates that fit onto special spaces on his armor and lock into place. By turning the plate and pulling it out he can remove the scroll and cast it. I thought, why not. It fit the requirements on the CA's guidelines for alternate scrolls, and it added a bit of flair not usully shown. Besides paper is so flesh-races. Now, heres my problem. he wants a Soarsled and he wants it as soon as he can create it. However, its 19,000 gold to make and it is not available anytime soon. However, he has an idea. He believes that if he sells these special scroll pauldrons, they will be all the rage and he will be able to sell them for money. However, he works for House Cannith and he wants all the profits. I just want to know how does copyright law work in Eberron, if any. I would guess that house Sivis would verify all copyrights, but do you thinkt his is a good idea? I asked a related question in the AKB thread... Alas, there is no actual copyright law in Eberron. There is attribution law, i.e., you can register a work as 'yours' with House Sivis, and no one else can claim credit for it (Keith suggested that the gnomes used assassins to deal with plagiarists, in fact). But there is no one to prevent works of yours from being copied and used elsewhere. This is one of the areas in which we're still dealing with a medieval/renaissance societal base: the notion that someone might want to copy a work of yours is seen as flattering, and not as an infringement of some imagined so-called 'right.' Remember, there is no mass production system outside the Creation Forges, and they aren't used on trivial things like scrolls. The best you'll be able to do is bring the matter to the attention of your local Baron or Baroness. House Cannith wishes to encourage their inventors, so they probably have some compensation system in place that is actually beneficial to the inventor (as opposed to exploitatitve). Beyond that, your only hope is to keep the secret of the pauldrons' manufacture secret. House Cannith can help with that, too. —Siran Dunmorgan
Azual 08-12-05, 10:59 PM	so basically he can sell the plans, and cannith will probably give a percentage of all sold OR a flat up front fee. Hmm... i think that is a good idea. What do you guys think is a good amount of compensation for this invention? A percentage, a flat fee, or maybe a better standing in Cannith.
gaiden 08-12-05, 11:21 PM	so basically he can sell the plans, and cannith will probably give a percentage of all sold OR a flat up front fee. Hmm... i think that is a good idea. What do you guys think is a good amount of compensation for this invention? A percentage, a flat fee, or maybe a better standing in Cannith. Well, from a purely role-playing perspective, this could be justification for something like Favored In House, assuming the character is a human Cannith heir... I believe you said he was 'forged, though, so depending on how strongly you like the RAW that might not work. Increased standing could still benefit the character with a few favors to be called in, or maybe a guild title and some influence. Monetary rewards should be considered against the total character wealth by level, so decide how far ahead you want this to advance the character (and maybe also how much you want this to benefit him, compared with how much he had to expend to design and finally produce a working prototype).
Cloud Divider 08-12-05, 11:35 PM	so basically he can sell the plans, and cannith will probably give a percentage of all sold OR a flat up front fee. Hmm... i think that is a good idea. What do you guys think is a good amount of compensation for this invention? A percentage, a flat fee, or maybe a better standing in Cannith. Well, honestly...how a deal goes down depends on a number of factors: 1) How do you (the GM) want to portray the Great Houses? Are they generally benevolent, or are they a little more self-serving, or even downright sinister? 2) Just how much of a potential market does Cannith see here? 3) Besides the plans, what exactly does the WF Artificer bring to the table? How much power or influence does this guy have? Is he otherwise a nobody? Is he buddy-buddy with Merrix? 4) How savvy a negotiator is he? How good a barrister can he afford to hire instead? The Cannith quite possibly have silver-tongued contract negotiators that can sell mud to a Shadow Marcher in a rainstorm. If you go with Self-serving Cannith, I could easily see them "acquiring" a set of these scrolls, and reverse engineering them, and mass-producing them on their own. If you go with Sinister Cannith, I can imagine them trying to acquire the plans/methods by force (your typical Cyberpunk-style "Let's extract the designer" type deal), and then selling it on their own. If you're wanting it to be a rather more positive experience... look at the deal this way: The Cannith can acquire the raw materials, and the means to mass-produce the items at a potentially reduced cost. So they provide quite a bit. Your PC provides the plans. Plans which the Cannith could quite possibly come up with on their own... This deal just saves them some R&D money, instead. Or there just might not actually be a market. So Cannith is accepting a fair amount of risk here. Naturally how good this deal is (for your player) will be dependent on probably a Diplomacy roll... So yeah, he may get a flat fee up-front, or a royalty, or some combination of the two...Or nothing at all. The Cannith may not think it's worth their time or trouble.
mistakeagian 08-13-05, 12:01 AM	Personally, i think the patent or not is moot. I mean, technically to make a metal scroll that fits your shoulders is a novelty, but not as effective as a nice paper scroll which is easier to access and cheaper to produce. I woun't see this catching on. Also if you letting him use these scroll as an alternate to the normal veriety, then i would rule the practice on alternate scroll is common. I mean maybe arenal use tiles and break them to cast their spells, and the lord of dust caryy small bones which when chewed allow them to cast inscribed magicks. I would say the pauldrons are just a neat version of something anyone who makes scrolls could do.
MysticTheurge 08-13-05, 12:26 AM	I think if he works for House Cannith it's probably a moot point. I would imagine that the Houses have a "work for hire" type relationship set up with their members, meaning that from a financial standpoint anything they create while performing their duties is House property. I would rule that he can't sell this idea to Cannith because technically they already own it.
nyysjan 08-13-05, 06:54 AM	there is no copyright or patent laws there is however a great number of thugs, spies, assassins and whatnot :D to make sure you don't step in anybodys toes
Azual 08-13-05, 09:23 AM	Personally, i think the patent or not is moot. I mean, technically to make a metal scroll that fits your shoulders is a novelty, but not as effective as a nice paper scroll which is easier to access and cheaper to produce. I woun't see this catching on. Also if you letting him use these scroll as an alternate to the normal veriety, then i would rule the practice on alternate scroll is common. I mean maybe arenal use tiles and break them to cast their spells, and the lord of dust caryy small bones which when chewed allow them to cast inscribed magicks. I would say the pauldrons are just a neat version of something anyone who makes scrolls could do. well, A) They arent flammable (a big plus) B) The warforged plans to experiment with a pauldron that can actually imbue metamagic once a day on one fo the scrolls (i thought was genius) C) They are easier to find (you cant lose something staped to your shoulders) D) they look cool.
Azual 08-13-05, 09:40 AM	I think if he works for House Cannith it's probably a moot point. I would imagine that the Houses have a "work for hire" type relationship set up with their members, meaning that from a financial standpoint anything they create while performing their duties is House property. I would rule that he can't sell this idea to Cannith because technically they already own it. that is, in fact, what i thought. See, he was created by Cannith four years ago, because they wanted to see if they could mass-produce a maigc item creator. It kinda worked, but they found out that they couldn't work twenty four hours a day. However, they did like the fact that they could make crafters, and so some of these (including the character) were transferred to work for higher up Artificers to teach them how tyo make more complicated magic items. The character was soon shown to be a genius at inveting magic items, many of which were taken by Cannith and kept. However, his last creation, the Scroll-Pauldron, he kept secret and he made on his own time. His master, the Artificer Frenis 'ir Cannith, always disliked the contruct nature of Warforged. He couldn't connect to their bizzare and reserved ways, and so with the character, his only apprentice, he treated him much more like a servant than a student. The character wanted to be treated like a son to the artificer, and spent many a time trying to curry the man's favor. However, on the day of mourning, his son, Ulysses, died int he cataclysim, and so Frenis lay in mourning for days, never leaving his room. Then one day, the character walked into Frenis' room and said that in his son stead, he would take the name of Ulysses and be a son of the artificer. Touched by the emotion that the Warforged showed, Frenis left mourning and the two finished Ulysses apprenticeship and the artificer decided to tell him it was now that he was going to be an artificer. Then the Treaty of Thronehold was signed and Ulysses was a free man, and even though Frenis offered him a position in his workshp, he declined, saying that he would always be in Sharn, crafting in his own personal workshop. The two still meet every saturday to discuss new ideas over lunch then go back to Frenis' workshop so ulysses can work at his old desk once again. ... :) this isnt my story, its one of my characters, but it hink he likes it. Any details i need to clear up?
Kid SixXx 08-14-05, 06:30 AM	However, he works for House Cannith and he wants all the profits. 1. As most folks have stated, you're describing a patent, not a copywright. 2. Superlative rules will follow here. As an employee of House Cannith, anything the WF develops is the property of House Cannith, especially if he used House Cannith resources to develop the equipment. 3. If he wants a soarsled, why doesn't he just ask House Cannith to pay him for this concept (and a couple of future concepts) with a soarsled, instead of asking for money?
nyysjan 08-14-05, 07:47 AM	well, A) They arent flammable (a big plus) B) The warforged plans to experiment with a pauldron that can actually imbue metamagic once a day on one fo the scrolls (i thought was genius) C) They are easier to find (you cant lose something staped to your shoulders) D) they look cool. A) Neither is a stone tablet or fire proof paper B) Derived from Rod of Metamagic (been there done that) C) They are also easy to see (Scroll case works just as well in most cases) D) Nothing for this one (Got no fashion sense) don't see there being any need for patent or copyright and canntih don't have any oblication to pay someone for the work they do while on duty except for their salary that has been stated in their contract.
Kid SixXx 08-14-05, 10:29 AM	and canntih don't have any oblication to pay someone for the work they do while on duty except for their salary that has been stated in their contract. True, but like any corporation, I'd think that Cannith would offer incentive bonuses to charges that exceed the house's expectations in some form or fashion. You don't retain competant and loyal workers by being tyrannical in your payscheme.
nyysjan 08-14-05, 12:00 PM	True, but like any corporation, I'd think that Cannith would offer incentive bonuses to charges that exceed the house's expectations in some form or fashion. You don't retain competant and loyal workers by being tyrannical in your payscheme. Any bonuses would be mentioned in the contract so that the contractee would be aware of, and suitably motivated by, them. same small bonus 100 / 200gp or maybe 10% of the said items retail prize. Let's remember that average worker even artificer won't earn that much in a month. A bonus equal to 6 months pay and 1 month vacation would be suitable
ParanoidWarforged 08-14-05, 05:39 PM	A lot of people are talking about re-imbursement packages and work for hire contracts. It's important to bear in mind that this sort of organised corporate thinking wasn't prevalent until the very arse-end of the industrial revolution- we're talking 1900s. If you want to play up the idea of the Houses being essentially megacorps, then cool, but personally i see them as far more like trade guilds- i.e the Masons. They kept their secrets amongst themselves, and if one of them made an advance, everyone benefited. If it was found one member had tried to undercut the others with a new technique he wasn't sharing... plot hooks abound :D In a setting this early into an industrial revolution a far more likely option would be to petition the House elders for a monopoly on these new items. It would keep people sweet and inventing, whilst at the same time not endangering House profits.
nyysjan 08-15-05, 05:45 AM	The houses aren't guilds or megacorps, they control guilds, sometimes several, but aren't guilds. Hirelings and workers are just that, hirelings and workers. They are not members, just servants. now if the person in question was a member of a guild controlled by the house, then the situation would be different (and he would have to give a certain percentage of all the profit he makes while working in the area controlled by the guild), but the post said that he was working for the house, not some guild.
Splendide 08-15-05, 08:23 AM	Azual, I think the issue that ultimately comes into play is the Warforged character's loyalty to his house. The second piece of backstory you posted in this thread has shown House Cannith and its members treating him extremely well...trying to find a way in which the PC would try to screw them out of money and still be in character seems to be the main conflict in play, not copyright laws.