Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hellcow 06-02-04, 01:56 AM	In previous threads, various people have expressed concern or interest in the fact that Eberron may be the setting of the D&D Online Game. Said threads have either been buried in the past or shut down because of hostility. So, to try to start things over again, what do you think about the idea of D&D Online using the Eberron setting? Is it a good thing? if so, why? If not, why, and what do you think would be a better choice? If you are interested in Eberron, what aspects would you like to see in an online game? To repost my earlier observations on the subject: At this time, I have not been involved in the development of D&D Online in any way. I know that other members of the WotC Eberron design team have been, so they aren't operating in the dark; however, I myself don't know anything about why they chose Eberron for the setting or where it will take place. However, as a fomer MMORPG developer, I can take a few guesses as to why they'd choose Eberron as the setting: 1. It's new. This is good for one reason: less material to be true to. If they go with Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, they have a built in fanbase -- but they are also bound by decades of existing material, and will have to deal with people saying "Why can't I be one of the Chosen?", "Where are the People of the Black Blood," or "As shown in Book #357, this could never happen in the Realms." Because Eberron is a new setting, the developers have more freedom to make what they think is the best game without disappointing fans who expect to see every detail of the world they've been playing with for over a decade. 2. There are large areas in Eberron that are inentionally mysterious. The Mournland. Xen'drik. Argonnessen. I don't know where they plan to set the game, but if they focused on Xen'drik then they get complete frontier action. This basically adds to my first point -- they wouldn't even have to worry about being perfectly attuned to the CSB, because there are no maps of Xen'drik. As long as they had the new races, the artificer, dragonmarks, & some of the organizations working in the background, they could do whatever they wanted. If they took this approach, they might not even have the lightning rail (train), as this currently only exists in Khorvaire. Frankly, this is probably what I'd do; it's better suited to an MMORPG, where you need a non-stop supply of action. As always, positive and negative opinions are welcome, but this time let's see if we can't keep things civil.
drekmonger 06-02-04, 02:38 AM	From a marketing standpoint, FR was the more natural choice. Even gamers who don't play PnP know the setting from Bioware's games. It probably would have sold like hotcakes. The relatively large playerbases of the various unofficial Toril muds supports this theory. (Personally, I don't like FR; I would be much more excited by a Planescape mmorpg based in Sigil with portals to famous locations, such as the Tomb of Horrors, the Demonweb Pit, the Underdark, Waterdeep, Greyhawk, that dragonlance inn, etc. etc.) The point is Ebberon has yet to earn it's chops--it doesn't feel like it's a part of the dungeons and dragons multiverse yet. (indeed, it's completely divorced from DnD cosmology) Many players of the game have a lot of emotional investment (and nostelga) in one setting or another....I wonder if old time gamers will manufacture some kind of backlash against everything Ebberon, out of spite for robbing their favorite setting of being *the* dnd mmorpg/rts. Anyway, there's a chance the Ebberon gamble will pay off. There are plenty of kiddies who've never touched a rulebook, Eberron might be the FR for this newer generation of gamers. If the Eberron rulebooks, novels, and video games all end up rocking and popular, we can have fun flaming hellcow for inventing the next Pokemon.
Brastan 06-02-04, 02:55 AM	However you must consider that Bioware is doing FR with its Never Winter Nights game and that has some major momentum behind it. Plus you want a setting were Players won't be competing with the NPC's. Why isn't so and so here, or why can't I bring I my super epic character? Getting around that, Eberron does make sense for the plain and simple reason that it is new. Look an The World of Warcraft that Blizzards is putting out. That story line just went though a major cataclysm and kinda cleared out the world. Now your going to have would be heros running around cleaning up the mess. Smilier but different situation in Eberron. However they'd better get the roles and interface done correctly, NWN is okay but it does lack some of what makes DnD DnD. (Not a type'o this time). I guess you can't replace good old fashion pencil and paper. Somethings to of note for the people writing Online DnD up, Don't forget the mounts and mounted combat or swimming or flying, I guess just go though the core books page by page and you'll be fine.
Alathayn 06-02-04, 12:07 PM	Actually I don't like it from a group-managing pointof view. When I played FR I allways had to fight asumptions the players made based on NWN and BG. Now we get Eberron and now we get two video games, one of the even a rts, that will mess up the players understandin of rules and background even more. Anyway, I've got no problems with the games themselfes and might even buy the rts-game, it's just that I think that settings that aren't based on P&P settings should be used, it can really mess up things. On the other hands I got into P&P because of BG2, but I think a setting based on the computer-game would work better for this way of recruiting.
Mad Miso 06-02-04, 12:50 PM	In all seriousness(who me? never!) using Eberron for D&D Online is a gamble. It's a gamble for whoever it is thats making the game, and a gamble for Wizards to license it out as a Video Game so soon. A calculated gamble, but a gamble none the less. Just a roll of the die. It could pay off in a huge way, or it could backfire explosively. I don't think video games, in and of themselves, will "ruin" Eberron, anymore than dozens of CRPG's stretching back over a decade ruined Forgotten Realms. I think the odds are pretty fair though. If D&D Online and the RTS game kick serious arse, they will be successful. D&D games have a huge fan-base to begin with, and if the game is actually good, it'll sell like hotcakes. Like really yummy- better than Denny's when you're up starving at 2:00 in the morning on a good day-made just the way you like them-hotcakes. That's just a given. And if the games that good, I gurantee you won't hear any serious whining about how all the "cyborg-ninja-dinosaurs-who-ride-halflings-and-dual-weild-wands" ruined the games atomosphere. Whiners will surface, but they'll be brutally shot down by the ginormous fanbase who's just happy to be playing a D&D game that doesn't suck. And if the game is that good, it's almost impossible for it to be anything but a propoganda device for Eberron. Once a setting is out there and attached to something they already like-the game- many people will grow attached to it. Not everyone of course, but a lot of people. And if the games both blow chunks? Well, it's not a deathblow, but it certainly doesn't help any. Which is why it's a gamble. For a mature setting with an established fan-base, it's not really a problem. If most peoples first impression of the setting is a terrible video game, it might turn some people of. In the end, only time will tell. Eberron will introduce itself as a campaign book, video-game, and novel-line almost all at once. Sure it's a risk, but it's a damn fun one, and I intend to enjoy the ride. :cool:
Radazim 06-02-04, 03:03 PM	As long as they had the new races, the artificer, dragonmarks, & some of the organizations working in the background, they could do whatever they wanted. If they took this approach, they might not even have the lightning rail (train), as this currently only exists in Khorvaire. What little information that is available seems to ignore the new races and classes of Eberron. In fact, if you check out the Turbine web page for D&DO (http://www.turbinegames.com/index.php?page_id=64) , you won't find any mention of Eberron at all. (Odd, I thought it used to be there.) I think it would be a major PR issue if DDO launched without Warforged and the Artificer class, but if there's one thing Turbine is all about, it's adding new content post-launch. Even if they only launched with core D&D races and classes, there's plenty of opportunity to add more down the road. Rumor has it that all of the core races and classes won't make launch anyway. As long as DDO ships with Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Rogue classes and Dwarf, Human, Elf, and Halfling races, they can add the rest later. (IMHO, of course.) If any of you played the "Guildwars" E3 beta test recently, you'll recall that while it was a MM world, only the towns were truly MM while the adventuring areas were privately instanced for your group whenever you left town. Allowing people to meet in towns to trade and find others to adventure with is great. Such a system prevents camping and all the other assorted annoyances that result from people having to share limited resources. My understanding of DDO is that it may have a similar feel. The town areas will be MM, but adventuring parties will each get private quest dungeons. (There might also be "public" areas or dungeons where people can adventure together - or compete - without grouping up, but I'm not sure.) If this is true, then the lightning rail might be a useful mechanism to get people to/from different cities. Finally, I'm hoping that there isn't any PvP combat in DDO at all. The simple reasons being (a) PnP D&D is not in any way shape or form balanced for PvP, and (b) PvP violates the spirit of cooperative multiplayer adventuring that is the hallmark of PnP D&D. That being said, I do hope that there are ways to influence the game world by picking sides and doing quests for the different power groups. Sort of indirect PvP, if you will. (I realize that discussing PvP runs the risk of derailing this conversation and turning it into a flamefest, so I'm going to stop here.)
Hellcow 06-02-04, 03:32 PM	Originally posted by Radazim What little information that is available seems to ignore the new races and classes of Eberron. Actually, despite what I said earlier, many of the new races not make much sense in a MMORPG. Kalashtar won't be too much use unless you have psionics or limit instant communication, neither of which seem likely. Changelings wouldn't be much use unless appearance truly matters in the game (IE you actually need disguise to accomplish certain goals). And shifters would be a pain to implement because of the vast number of shifting options available to the character. So if there is an Eberron race, I'd expect it to be the warforged. Artificers are also a tricky class, because a number of their key augmentations -- spell storing item, weapon augmentation, and armor augmentation -- are extremely versatile. Spell storing item in particular. On the other hand, if they do implement magic item creation with creation feats, it would make the artificer the key class for players who like crafting activities. Hmm.
Radazim 06-02-04, 03:58 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow On the other hand, if they do implement magic item creation with creation feats, it would make the artificer the key class for players who like crafting activities. Hmm. It appears that crafting is out, at least the way that existing MM games do it. That's not to say that there won't be some kind of mechanism in-game to allow someone to take and use the Item Creation feats, but I'm betting that won't make launch. Plenty of other MM titles have had rich and robust crafting systems, but this isn't where I'd expect D&DO to innovate since crafting as a separate profession isn't really part of PnP. I don't think crafting, other than using Item Creation feats, has a place in D&DO. One of the problems I see with Item Creation is that in a PnP campaign, the DM is the final arbiter of balance when it comes to who can make what (or who finds what in loot). In an MM game without DM's, the devs need to come up with ways to simulate the DM's balancing act, otherwise every guild would powerlevel up their "craft mage mules" who would then churn out all the best gear for their lower level members. I'm a big anti-twinking fan, so it's probably best not to get me started on that topic either. ;) As for warforged, can you have them without also having artificers? If the augmentation function was provided through NPC "body shops", would that render the artificer sort of useless except as a warforged healer? (And would it then make more sense to just allow regular healing magic to work on them or add a separate "repair warforged" spell line to existing clerics?) I see what you mean that the other new races might not make sense as PC classes for D&DO. Perhaps they can be worked into the setting as NPCs.
Hellcow 06-02-04, 04:05 PM	Originally posted by Radazim As for warforged, can you have them without also having artificers? If the augmentation function was provided through NPC "body shops", would that render the artificer sort of useless except as a warforged healer? (And would it then make more sense to just allow regular healing magic to work on them or add a separate "repair warforged" spell line to existing clerics?) If they aren't going to bother with crafting -- and I agree that there's a lot of reasons not to with this game -- artificers would lose a lot of their abilities. However, as things stand, the "Repair Damage" spells *are* available to sorcerers and wizards in addition to artificers. So if you had a party of warforged, you could just focus on tanks and wizards...
Singing Urgosh 06-02-04, 07:13 PM	All previous points read and considered I am writing down what I think the game could/should have and a few things it could avoid. If my post concurs with yours :), but if it seems to contradict or oppose please be aware this is not my intention of this post, just my views on this matter. That said: I think that Eberron is a great setting to place a new, fresh online D&D game into. Why? The traditionalists have NWN and its myriad expansions and user made mods to satisfy them if medievil european settings is what they want. But if you look up any of the boards that offer mods to download and you will find all sort of magi-tech, high tech and homebrew settings finding there way in, and this is where Eberron could score alot of loyal followers (members of these boards included). Is it a gamble...yes. But so was NWN. (And IMHO its not that great anyway, good, but not what hey were selling). Is this WoTC's chance to improve on all of the letdows of NWN and create a new online world which will draw a % to PnP gamming.....damn straight. The world itself I would really like the world to be true to life size. A whole farm of servers to host the biggest virtual world currently known. If the players need to travel for days, then they literally travel for days (with some acelerated time engine of course) but just like in PnP, there is the option for each footfall to be played out, each ration counted and for the non-combat element of the game to be actually played. If this was in place, then the lightning rail would be considered a godsend by many a traveller, but a taunt by most who could not afford its fares. As I have read here already, I would thouroughly support extensive and well supported cities or towns in this world. Possibly even the option of creating new campsites, waysides or travellers posts if your party has the money, resources ad skills. I would also love to be able to set myself up as a shop/bar/stable/lab owner, and basically play (Sim style) the role of Fargruum the Dwarven Armourer, greatest hammer in all of Khorvaire (spelling?). PC's drop of items, money and other tid bits I ask for before I start work, and from there on in there is an extensive creation module toplay through in which I shape the item, decorate it, actually have to work on it for x hours to get the desired result and bestow upon it whatever enchantments I have/the PC wants/I feel would make a great item. These items would then be carried outinto the field and Farguun would earn a reputation for great work. It would make a great change from the instant weapons that NWN/BG/BG2 offer players, and would also allow for the creators to flavour their items in a certain style, enhancment set or who they even sell to. Just like a BMW dealer, they would not sell just to anybody...imagine walking into a forge and being told that you are not worthy of an item from this forge. I would also liek to see the option (probably more in non-combat areas) of allowing interacts and relationships to be worked on (once again, similar to The Sims). In this way having a high Cha would not guarantee a great discount if the shop owner actually did not like you (remember there is a D20 roll to determine attitude, not a guarantee that a Cha 20 opens all doors and gets a 20% discount). Maybe throw in the option of a few R&R activities (drinking, picking up, shopping, tourny) and the non-combat side of the game become quite fun too. Also, things like room availability, room prices, addmission into places to start with could all be more 'random' and realistic if people actually owned and ran some of the establishments and had thier own 'variable?' criteria for entry and other functions. Just like the forge, imagine if you had to present a dragon scale before work could be commissioned. You would then have to find the dragon, slay it, get the scale back to town and then hope that the forge does not say "Wrong colour, I want a blue one". As for the races of Eberron being in the game I say why not? The Warforged are an easy one to implement, although thier repair needs will make them more difficult to play (just like in PnP). The Changelings would be able to get into places only accessibible by certain races/traits, and be able to loose tails or 'police' should they be after them (imagine tracking a PC and then all of a suddent they meld into a commoner form and virtually vanish). The Kalsashtar...um, you would have to implement Psi powers and allocating a point system should be no problem. (I personally would love a psi system in a game, just for a change) Shifters would simply gain the benefit of thier racial skills (faster, toughter, more damage, etc) whenerver they manifested the ability much like casting a spell. All up, I do not see too may problems in having the races in game, but the game itself will have to come out of NWN mode and look at making a PC PnP game, not a PC game based on a PnP world. Probably the biggest thing that both the RTS and D&DO will need to do is to remain true to the story, history and dynaics of the world. No making tings up, no changing aliances or left field races. They need to make it fit. If any of the PC games do not 'fit' with the PnP world then you are going to cop the backlash from both sides and loose out on PnP players who might have bought the PC games and vice versa. I think that he games represent an excellent opportunity to cut in some cool visuals of much of the stuff in the CSB, and if done well the PnP players would flock to buy and play the game just to catch a CG rendereing of the LoB going to town on a human pikeman unit or an Articifer busting apart the greatsword of Kings to make pair of gauntlet swords for personal use... this imagary is what the PnP players will come to see, and it will also make the PC gamers want to pick up the CSB so they can play out these same actions or thwart the LoB which they now know about. In summary, I think that this is a great opportunity for WoTC, the Eberrites, the Netboys and for Keith to bring to life and share a vision that will truely span the up until now opposing sides of D&D players. I would also love to see instead of a campaign maker, a Mechanima maker that would allow me to script, direct and play out the greatest adventures of Stone Dogg the Warforged Barbarian and his trusty Singing Urgosh. Of course the White Wizard, Mad Mink and the acursed Harmony's Sorrow would all be there too. Just like the Red vs Blue series, I think that this function in a D&D game would have both types of player in rapture for hours, days, weeks if not years. I'm out. Stay sane.
Azzadar 06-02-04, 09:06 PM	I think Eberron is perfect for the RTS game Liquid is designing. They set it in Xen'drik, so the lack of info on the area works for them. I really can't imagine a FR or Greyhawk RTS. Setting DnDO in a gamble, as stated earlier. A new world is good for creativity. An existing world is good for the fan base. Overall, I have faith in Turbine and Liquid. I have enjoyed their games and look foward to these two. A side note about DnDO crafting. I think they should include crafting. People tend to like crafting (I had fun crafting stuff in Asheron's Call 2). There are lots of ways they can balance or restrict it. They can use level requirements, time limits and/or durability. I don't think crafted items unbalances thing too much. Higher level enhancements cost more. Crafter aren't just going to give items up that easily. Ashreron's Call 2 and Star Wars Galaxies have player created economies and the crafters I have met charge an arm and a leg for items with rare components or high material cost. Even in guilds. Some people even quest for items they need to craft gear. I think it'll be healthy for the game.
drekmonger 06-03-04, 12:24 AM	I can imagine a Dragonlance RTS (long overdue, in my estimation). Recreations of battles from the various DL wars would seem more interesting to me than conflict in mysteryland X, especially if they could figure out a way to make aerial combat between dragonriders cool. (Maybe a 3d interface like Homeworld....) Anyway, if the only reason to choose Ebberon shouldn't be that it's a blank slate. What's the point of saying these games are set in Ebberon if the specifics are glossed over? Might as well say they are set in ancient china, or on pluto. For example, the mmorpg. From a player's perspective, the best hook for playing in Ebberon are the new races/classes, which from the sound of it won't be in the video game. Also, aren't leveled mages and clerics suppose to be rare on Ebberon? Seems to me that you wouldn't be able to throw a stone without hitting one in a mmorpg...so why not pick a setting (like Planescape or FR) that is closer to the mmorpg conventions?