Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pallin Rahl 07-31-06, 01:15 PM	I've read a few articles recently that claim the Eberron setting is more geared to low-to-mid-level play... What are your opinions on this subject? Have you found that higher-level adventures work just as well in Eberron as anywhere else? ...what do you feel is the sweet spot (level range) for adventuring in Eberron, if you feel one exists? Though many of the "important figures" seem to be mid-level (vaguely) in the Eberron setting descriptions... I couldn't really see any huge reason why higher-level adventuring would be any different in Eberron than any other setting. /shrug ...just something I saw pop up in a few articles (by third-parties) recently and fealt like discussing a bit. :) ~~~~~ Long story short, I have a small party (only 2 PCs and their few NPC buddies that occationally adventure with them) that I would like to have end up in Eberron (I've recently been reading up on the setitng and find it quite nifty)... don't ask how, I have my ways :P (they're on a magically secluded homebrew continent that I'm thinking of meshing into the greater Eberron world in an interresting way). Thing is, they'll be level 8 or 9 by the time they get there... and I don't want any unforseen issues/problems to pop up relative to the setting. ;)
Ricohard_Draconis 07-31-06, 01:51 PM	well 8,9 and 10th level works well. this is the point where your really coming into your own on eberron. This is the level where you get to be Hero's with the capital H eberron works well enough at most levels: 1~4= street work investigation, tribulation and crime 5~10= 'this is my city/country and we don't want no trouble" 11~15= We keep the war from breaking out single handedly 16~20+=JLA, Your the first last and only line of defense, you face dealkyr head to head and save the world weakly.
Kalanth 07-31-06, 02:12 PM	My party consists of five players ranging from 10 - 12th lvl. I had little troubl running the game for those levels, but the problem I am having now is working on the game that gives them a true moment of danger. If I put them against NPC's they tend to complain because regular joes are fighting as well as them (their words, not mine). Hardest thing right now is finding a plot line that works with their level.
Kreistor1 07-31-06, 02:51 PM	To play high levels whil retaining the lower level nature of Khorvaire, you have to establish certain things. First, civil authority has to be a threat to the PC's. They should have certain allegiences that pervent the "I'm higher level, so I should take over" concept. They should know that they can't be King, and they can go to jail, even at L21. There are lots of places to put high CR threats. Xen'drik can be anything. Argonnessen can be epic. Khyber can be Epic. The Demon Wastes can be Epic. Underwater adventures can be Epic. You just need reasons why these forces can't seriously threaten Khorvaire. In most cases (Xen'drik, Khyber) there are serious restrictions on movement to Khorvaire for Epic level threats. Anyway, if the PC's play heroes, you should be okay. If they play villains, it won't work out nicely. Too many factions like the status quo, so the PC's will find themselves fighting the fores of authority.
hiryuu 07-31-06, 03:04 PM	If civil authority has to be a threat to the PCs, they're playing villains, not heroes, and so an enterprising band of heroes should stop them. Anyway, I successfully ran an Eberron game up to level 20; they ended the campaign by defeating a demon inside an eldritch machine that the demon had tricked them into constructing, and at the end, they discovered the machine was supposed to have the demon die inside it so it could be reborn as a human infant and be taught to live a mortal life to understand human morality in order to get its boyfriend back.
ccerose 07-31-06, 03:08 PM	The PCs in my group are currently levels 9-10. Even though they are a farily stong bunch, they are still willing to take assignments from House Cannith. They are currently in the Mournlands, which is providing a good challenge for the players. If they continue with the current adventure, they are going to wind up on one of the smaller islands around Xen'drik at around level 12-13 to face some giants and quori. By the time its over, the characters should be hitting level 15. I don't plan on writing any further adventures for the high level characters for a while. If I do eventually get around to continuing, they will probably face delkyr and their more powerful minions. Personally, I really enjoy running campaigns around levels 4-8.
Pallin Rahl 07-31-06, 04:10 PM	Note for those curious: They're "heros", not "villians" :)
The Dreaming Duck 07-31-06, 04:21 PM	In the Dragon Magazine article "Eternal Evil", Keith Baker suggests that there are around 90 potentially epic-level members of the Council of Ashtakala (the inner circle of the Lords of Dust), and that's not even counting the imprisoned rajahs. The point is that the members of the Council have little interest in exercising this power, because conquering human nations is essentially meaningless to them - just more paperwork and drawing the attention of other powerful forces. But if one of THEIR prophecies comes to fruition, they will act. In other words, there's some very powerful villains out there (and not all members of the council are rakshasa); it's just that they may not develop a reason to act until the players (luckily for the world) are fortunate enough to be ready to challenge them. If I put them against NPC's they tend to complain because regular joes are fighting as well as them (their words, not mine). If NPCs are 12th level+, they aren't regular joes, certainly. The city guard shouldn't be that powerful. But the player characters aren't the only people who get to be remarkable. Chapter Nine of the Eberron Campaign Setting specifically discusses the idea of recurring villains... NPCs who get tougher just as the players do. Hellcow has repeatedly said that this is how Vol and the Lord of Blades should work... that the Lord of Blades may only be 12th-level to begin with, but by the time the PCs are 12th-level, the Lord of Blades should be 16th-level. MOST people are regular joes and don't advance like this. But just as the PCs are remarkable, so are some of the villains. The Fantastic Four doesn't just gain a few levels and say "Well, Doctor Doom is no threat to us any more"... because Doctor Doom has gained a few levels as well. So sure, regular joes shouldn't be that tough... but at 12th level, you shouldn't be dealing with regular joes.
Psionycx 07-31-06, 04:29 PM	It's also key that Eberron is supposed to have the flavor of a high action-adventure type genre. As a rule, great action heroes are rarely significantly troubled by the cops. The lack of high-level "political" NPC's in Eberron leaves the door open for PC's to really shine, because there's nobody else that can face the really major threats in the world. You don't want to get into a scenario where the question is: "Shouldn't the government be taking care of this?" In Eberron the answer is no. Big time fiends, the Dreaming Dark and such are all threats on a scale that only high-level heroes can truly face them. Once PC's advance to high levels DM's have an open door to start putting them into conflicts with the daelkyr (and remember that the stats in the ECS are only for an "average" daelkyr), major fiends and other-planar monsters of all shapes and sizes. PC's adventures can take them to the orbiting planes or deep into places like Xen'drik and Sarlona where they can't just drop in at an inn to catch a breather between encounters. Eberron actually has more options at the high level end I think than it does at the low (where the adventures are more generic).
Kalanth 07-31-06, 04:39 PM	If NPCs are 12th level+, they aren't regular joes, certainly. The city guard shouldn't be that powerful. Like I said, their words, not mine. :) Now, my guys don't tend to break mass law and get into squables with the city guard, so I don't bother to stat them out at all. And the last battle they were in (which resulted in Lyrandar Tower collapsing and taking out a large number of buildings in Sharn) they fought side by side with City Guard and Lyrandar individuals (Lvl 2 Warriors). They were defending the tower against Emerald Claw soldiers (Lvl 2 Warriors with two lvl 1 clerics) and a Vroc who was the Emerald Claw leader. The battle went amazingly smooth, and was exciting, and there was no complaining about the level of the enemy. But, for most battles against NPC's it has been a large number of lvl 1 or 2 NPC leveled bad guys. Only exception was a short spot where they duked it out with a few Drow of which I had them around lvl 9 and 10 since they should be high enough to battle giants afterall. As for the politics, there are two sides to every coin in that world. Politicians can be enemies as well as allies and it can all take place in a small arena. Though I am thinking about doing a Serenity like plot line using a Karnathi Warforged who knows a bit to much about their king.
GreyLotus 08-01-06, 12:11 AM	I Think eberron at higher lvls kind of blows...Not much to do. I mean...You can take on dead elves...or maybe 1 liche....thats like it...
Flame_Drake 08-01-06, 12:27 AM	I Think eberron at higher lvls kind of blows...Not much to do. I mean...You can take on dead elves...or maybe 1 liche....thats like it... Or all of the Lord of the Dusts, or the Daelykr, or the several hundred liches and vampires that aren't named in the ECS, or advanced raidiant idols... not to mention the Rajahs and a continet of Great Wyrms thatcould have any number of reasons to kill you... Or the Darkness That Dreams, or a divinely inspired LoBster... Yeah there's nothing to do :rolleyes: Sarcasm aside, I think that Eberron is even better then other settings for high level adventures, because the stakes are so high since if you don't do it, no one will. That is the number one biggest difference between Eberron and other settings at high level: PCs are the best heros there the world has. Drake
OneWinged4ngel 08-01-06, 02:28 AM	There's more than enough high level encounters in Eberron. The only difference compared to some settings is that high level encounters actually have the epic feel they always should have. There's an incredible load of material, and it's really not hard to find an endless supply of material to use in high level encounters. Some people are just used to FR where every other baby's born with a +4 pacifier and the only reason you're saving the world is because that epic wizard from that little hamlet is too damn lazy to get off his easychair, and regular ol' people can take down "heroes", and thus can't seem to wrap their minds around the city guard not being able to threaten heroes who can blow up monsters as big as a skyscraper. There is seriously no shortage of high level and even epic level material in Eberron.
Psionycx 08-01-06, 11:12 AM	This is why I strongly agree that major NPC's such as rulers should not be high-levels. I mean, then what's the point? The kingdom is threatened by a powerful fiend. But the king (a 20th level paladin) has a budget meeting with his finance ministers, an audience with the weaver's guild and a luncheon with a foreign ambassador followed by a closed door session on national defense. The earliest he could possibly pencil the fiend into his schedule would be early tomorrow if he can move his morning judgements up to the afternoon. But by then the fiend will have chewed up some valuable real estate, so the king turns to a nearby page and say: "Be a good lad and run down to the tavern and round up some adventurers to take care of this fiendish chap. Oh, and tell my secretary to make sure there's plenty of mead in the finance meeting. Those ministers are much more tolerable when they've got a few pints in them. Run along now, there's a good lad." This is, unfortunately, much of the theme in FR. When the heroes are needed to save the world, it's because Elminister's busy and the Seven Sisters are getting their hair done. Adventurers are needed for the big guys to delegate the busy work to. But a lot of environments on Eberron are very high level friendly. The Demon Wastes, the interior of Xen'Drik, Sarlona and Khyber are all places that can challenge even high-level PC's. And that's without factoring in the planes. I tend to agree with King Boranel. Anything but politics! One thing that drags down a lot of campaigns (and what certainly dragged down the Greyhawk campaign setting) is an obsession with urban adventures and national politics. Too many players and DM's get fixated on adventuring in cities, and thus adventures tend to get tangled up in politics, dealing with rulers and authorities and such, and then players complain that there's no opportunity to really cut loose! Always remember that the "civilized" lands of Khorvaire represent a minority of the world. Not one of the Lords of Dust gives a damn about the supposed "authority" of the rulers of the Five Nations. The Inspired only pretend to be running a normal nation that can be dealt with through diplomatic channels when they're really the beachhead of an interplanar invasion. The daelkyr would turn the capitals or Khoravire into freak shows if they managed to escape the depths of Khyber. And the truth is that the governments may not be able to handle threats of these nature. Just like the Dhakaani Empire was unable to stand against the might of the daelkyr. In the end hobgoblin heroes and orc Gatekeepers saved the day, not some government authority. And so it would be if such a cataclysmic threat breaks loose today.
Pallin Rahl 08-01-06, 12:16 PM	Some very solid points. :) ...and I agree, I kinda like the notion that the PCs, by the higher levels, are among the small number of people actually in a position to deal with significant, large-scale threats. I too always found it odd in some settings... "Hey, can your group of level 14 adventurers do me a favor and take out that world-threatening lich. Yes, I'm a level 24 Wizard, what's your point?" ;) I have to say, I really dig the Eberron setting... I'm glad I finally got around to looking into it. :) (normally our group plays totally homebrewed campaign worlds)
Kalanth 08-01-06, 12:35 PM	One point made earlier is the politics. It is true, a lot of campaigns revolve around such a thing. I have done well this campaign through to have as little in the way of politics as possible. So far so good, but that is what you get when you are running for a group of Robin Hood esque pirates. Few populated harbors, and lots and lots of treasure hunting. :) I normally focus on the political side of the world, but I am finding it more interesting not using that part of Eberron at all for this high level game.
valkeriesmurf 08-01-06, 01:29 PM	Looks like most everyone has already hit all the major points on doing higher level adventures in Eberron. My two cents worth to add to it all, is yes, Eberron easilly supports a group of characters going from levels 1-10. After that, finding the places to take them adventuring gets a little harder and the DM has to plan a bit more what they're doing. Five Nations seems to have plotted out some slightly higher adventure spots of 11-2th level, maybe a level or two higher. I've seen a DM who's tried treating Eberron as generic and when getting to levels 13-14, the campaign/adventures fell apart as the DM just wasn't making it challenging enough. Everyone's pretty much hit on what threats and challenges to throw at the party and what they should be facing. But I've found if your PC's are high enough level, say 6-7... if you can find the right mix, CR 3 and 4s in the right numbers can still threaten them. So while many NPCs might not be high levels, if you have enough of them and don't say make them always level 1s, you can still threaten PCs. And if I recall rightly, past discussions of this have suggested that while even Forgotten Realms started off as low level to mid levels, over time it had NPCs get to higher level and Epic, plus the higher level adventures. Talk had been the same thing could and may happen with Eberron. The higher level and epic NPCs/Adventures will appear or become common place. In the mean time, you can rocket PCs to 10th level easilly, after that, the DM has to work tailoring the adventures and you can do it.
mahavira 08-01-06, 02:14 PM	I've run a game up till L13 with no difficulties finding challenges. There are entire regions of the map where sane characters just don't go before a certain level. The mournland, the demon wastes, Xendrik (the population consists of giants and drow of sufficient level to fight the giants). There may not be many -human- high level NPCs, but an illithid commoner is a L9 telepath, most dragons have a CR over 10, and that's not even getting into using the planes. A Shavarrath warlord decides to harvest soul power from Eberron to fuel his war effort, suddenly you have an adventure chock full of high level monsters. Also, for problems like common soldiers being no threat to the PCs, use the mob template from DMGII: they aren't fighting individual soldiers, they're fighting masses of them (I modified the mob template to create a mob of cultists capable of casting cleric spells as a group). Just my 2 cents.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 08-01-06, 02:23 PM	Ive never seen the problem with high level, or even epic level Eberron. Nations ahve there elite guards, the varius factions there best men, and any of thses could and should be a sutable chalenge for your players. Further more when I gm I tend to have a good idea of what they will be facing at the epic levels so I can forshadow and lead on in. On average 1 in 3 quests I give ties into this plot. For example the Next campeghn I'll be doing in ebberon (asuming my players are up for it) will be themed around the varius many legged scutling things in the varius books, plages of inscects and exoskelital nightmares tying into the awakening of an imprisoned Dealkyr with a love of insects who over the corse of the campeghn will escape and unleash his swarms upon ebberon. Famine Vermine and woe as the crops of nations are consumed by locusts. Low level bug hunts as the plages gather, leading to mid level dealings with nations on verge of war to feed there people before steping up to the dealkyrs greater minions and the man him self in the epic levels. its going to be fun, and hopefuly a refeshing chage from our normal urban campehns.
Psionycx 08-01-06, 04:05 PM	It's worth noting that there is something fundamentally wrong with your campaign if your players are still hanging around in civilized areas after 10th level. But it is true that a lot of players need to be dragged screaming and kicking out of their safe little city homes. After all, the dream of gaining levels is that eventually you'll be really powerful and able to lord it over the low CR population with impunity. The Five Nations are kind of a training ground for low-level adventurers to get experience in before moving on to face the more serious threats in Khorvaire. Most of these serious threats are actually based outside the nations. So, for example, if your main antagonists are the Dreaming Dark, at some point you're going to have to expand your horizons to Sarlona. Unless of course your players are extremely passive and lazy and are content to just sit around Sharn waiting for the next DD plot to swing their way. And if the DD manages to psionically subvert governments and rulers the PC's are probably not going to be able to resolve the problem by overthrowing a kingdom, so an head on collision with the Inspired will be needed. But of course, no party will last long in Sarlona without some serious personal abilities so this is a campaign demanding high-level PC's. Likewise, the Lords of Dust are either operating out of the Demon Wastes or Khyber and if run properly by the DM they cannot be ignored by PC's for long. Likewise, the armies of the nations won't be very useful in those kinds of environments (which is one reason the Demon Wastes were never claimed during the centuries of Galifar rule). So the authority of kings, queen and little girl clerics are meaningless here, and even the great armies of the Last War would be hard-pressed by armies of fiends. Like the ancient Gatekeepers some alternate solution, probably requiring special magic, perhaps even Epic magic, will be needed. The key is to get the players to stop adventuring in New Jersey. Adventures in urban environments or civilized countryside work well for low-levels and mid-levels, but are worthless for high-level. However, a quick look at the map of Eberron shows that "civilization" is actually a small part of the geography. Most of the world is either wild or else ruled by hostile powers. And then there are the planes beyond. High-level play becomes easy once you realize that.
Romulus LoneWolf 08-01-06, 04:35 PM	If NPCs are 12th level+, they aren't regular joes, certainly. The city guard shouldn't be that powerful. The common members of the city guard? Perhaps not. ...But by that level, maybe Lord Commander Iyan ir'Talan decides to hire some higher-powered NPCs to serve as a "special Watch Unit" of powerful troubleshooters..
Kalanth 08-01-06, 04:46 PM	Just have a pack of wild Karnathi Undead Bullettes wander out of Karn and kill whoever they come across. They are rather interesting beasts as it is (I believe it was Five Nations that had them listed), and a plot could be generated there. What I have noticed by sticking to this thread and working on a plot that will take the players from 12 to 20 is this. Eberron is like anyother gaming world, except the heros are the heros, and not hired lackies that are chosen because the best of the best is busy at that time. There are many great places to have an epic game. Droam, Darguun, Demon Wastes, Black Cap Mtns, Sarlona, Argonessan, Icewall, Xen'drik, and any little random island you make in between. I did all I could to use many of these locations already in our game, which is why I am going underneath the waves of the sea (See my thread "Undersea Adventure in Eberron). The only thing that is limiting our ability to run high level games in Eberron is the fact that it was written that Eberron is best for low-level characters. We are naturally boxing ourselves into a corner, instead of searching out a possible solution. And, I doubt any of you are, but never be afraid to change the world. Heck, that is why I collapsed both a major part of the economy and Lyrandar Tower in Sharn, effectively shutting down Air Ship shipments into and out of the city. Make those changes, and do all you can to make them memorable. Heck, if you really want to get bold, run an epic plot that uncovers the reason for the Mournland. To make it epic, use the rules that say healing does not work in the Mournland, that instantly makes everything nastier. Something like that can make a swarm of Zombies or Skeletons ten times nastier. They may cut through them like weeds, but each wound sticks with them until they leave. P.S. - Nastiest thing I ever did was have an Orc infected with Lycanthropy attack the players in the Mournland. Two were infected, but the disease never showed up in their system while they were there. It was not until they left the boarders of the grey mist and had made it back to Thrane that the disease appeared. What was best about it? One of the infected players was an Exsorcist of the Silver Flame. Ah, that was mean of me. :devil:
Psionycx 08-01-06, 05:19 PM	Well, consider the classic AD&D adventure series that began with Against the Giants, continued with Descent Into the Depths, Shrine of Koa Toa and Vault of the Drow, and culminated in the multi-planar adventure Queen of the Demonweb Pits. Basically it begins with a standard adventurer premise: giants are attacking. They're attacking out of the mountains so conventional armies are all but useless against them. So adventurers are recruited to investigate and take action. And as the adventure series progresses the PC's find a conspiracy with deeper and deeper roots until they have to go all the way to the Abyss and face a goddess! That is how a campaign ought to work! And that's how Eberron works. Any seemingly minor incursion by monsters could have roots stretching all the way to Dal Quor or Xoriat. The PC's start out as low-level and as they continue the campaign and try to track down the source of their woes they face progressively greater challenges that take them further and futher away from civilization.