Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 01-11-07, 04:19 PM	Anyone contemplated the idea of just utterly mixing up Eberron's cultural history in a way that utterly doesn't make any sense in the context of a medieval or victorian setting? Already in my campaign there's the fact that every race is present with no real rhyme or reason. The equivalent of Asians, Africans, Caucasians, Indians, and the like are all spread throughout Khovaire. I'm also considering the idea that plenty of things are left over from pre-Lhazaar arrival cultures that no one really remembers the origins of. Thus there's equivalents of samurai, kung fu Shaolin monks, and all the Western Knights that we've seen. What do you think? Can all that divorced of cultural context work?
ArcTan 01-11-07, 07:20 PM	Anyone contemplated the idea of just utterly mixing up Eberron's cultural history in a way that utterly doesn't make any sense in the context of a medieval or victorian setting? Already in my campaign there's the fact that every race is present with no real rhyme or reason. The equivalent of Asians, Africans, Caucasians, Indians, and the like are all spread throughout Khovaire. Yeah, so? So Eberronian humans don't have the same stupid hang-ups we do about skin color, eye shape and other minor physical characteristics. It isn't Earth, after all. I'm also considering the idea that plenty of things are left over from pre-Lhazaar arrival cultures that no one really remembers the origins of. Thus there's equivalents of samurai, kung fu Shaolin monks, and all the Western Knights that we've seen. What do you think? Can all that divorced of cultural context work? Yeah, sure. It's actually better than slavishly trying to make everything fit some real-world culture exactly. It's more fun. Gives you the feeling of actually being in an imaginary world and culture rather than a dressed-up version of real history. There's no reason why Eberron's martial traditions can't look and feel in some ways like Asian martial arts rather than European ones. Why Eberron religion can't be just as reminiscent of African animistic beliefs as some mishmash of Greek mythology and medieval Christianity. Etc.
Charles Phipps 01-11-07, 07:21 PM	I think it's more an issue of having the feel of a different and more cosmopolitan world actually.
cancerousmango 01-11-07, 11:31 PM	Dude, just have Dhaakani goblinoids replace all the human characters, get rid of the flying squirrel, and you've made Champloo even cooler than it already is. SERIOUSLY. just realized that I didn't make fun of this thread by saying that we need to be focusing on converting Air Bud to Eberron. Fancy that. I always do that to "How do I convert (X show, anime, whatever) to Eberron?
Alex_ 01-12-07, 11:30 AM	Eberron tends to have most of your real world cultures taken care of. Look to Xendrik and Aerenal for African and Souther American tribal cultures. The Talenta Plains Halflings are your Native Americans. The Karnnath are your Eastern Europeans/Russians. Valenar are Mongols/Persian horse cultures. Thrane and the Silver Church is very similar to Eastern religions conceptually, but more simialr to western religions in organization and terminology. In Eberron, there's no Human Asian, African, South American, etc -like culture. You want ninjas and samurai, you go with Goblins from Darguun. If you want nomadic hunter/gatherers with a strong sense of spirituality who wear feathers ad animal hides, you can go with Halflings from the Talenta Plains. Humans from Sarlona, I think, may have had different cultures correlating strongly with ethnicity while on Sarlona, but once they got to Khorvaire, all those differences pretty much dissapeared, just like Elves on Khorvaire are not anything like Elves from Aerenal or Xendrik. And generally culture under Galifar rule amongst human societies was psuedo- Western European.
Charles Phipps 01-12-07, 11:45 AM	I wonder where the Dargunn=Asian culture came from. That seems a pretty big leap given the fact that they've been mostly portrayed as a barbarian horde of warriors barely out of Tolkien as opposed to a more refined culture.
cancerousmango 01-12-07, 11:53 AM	I wonder where the Dargunn=Asian culture came from. That seems a pretty big leap given the fact that they've been mostly portrayed as a barbarian horde of warriors barely out of Tolkien as opposed to a more refined culture. The Goblinoids have a complex, albeit martial, culture.
goblin_pride 01-12-07, 12:14 PM	I wonder where the Dargunn=Asian culture came from. That seems a pretty big leap given the fact that they've been mostly portrayed as a barbarian horde of warriors barely out of Tolkien as opposed to a more refined culture. I hardly think horde would be appropriate for the oldest surviving culture on Khorvaire. The Dhakaani use more finesse than a ravaging horde, I think you've confused us for the Valenar.
Charles Phipps 01-12-07, 12:15 PM	Well I'm not referring to the Dhakaani per say but Dargunn as a whole. Remember, Dargunn is made of a group of mercenaries and slavers that revolted and took a underdeveloped portion of Khovaire. The Dhakaani were civilized but they're not the main part of the Dargunn whom seem to mostly be smelly brutes.
goblin_pride 01-12-07, 12:21 PM	The Dhakaani were civilized but they're not the main part of the Dargunn whom seem to mostly be smelly brutes. Are civilized, the Dhakaani will be straightening out the rest of the world's problems with Darguun shortly.
eehamburg 01-12-07, 12:25 PM	Well .. the picture of the hobgoblin warlord in the ECS looks fairly asiatic in flavor. I think that it comes from there.
Charles Phipps 01-12-07, 12:34 PM	Yes, well I'm just hesitant to make any real world human group restricted to being a non-human culture for the most part. Also, while they might make excellent Mongols (the Valenar make better ones). It's also hard to imagine the majority of Asian civilization surrounded by what I seem to be getting from Dargunn which is World of Warcraft.
Alex_ 01-12-07, 01:45 PM	I wonder where the Dargunn=Asian culture came from. That seems a pretty big leap given the fact that they've been mostly portrayed as a barbarian horde of warriors barely out of Tolkien as opposed to a more refined culture. The armor worn by Lhesh and the Hobgoblin warlord in the ECS show subtle Japanese influences in the helmet and the wearing of banded mail which is very popular amongst Asian cultures. Goblin affinity for chain weapons, which were used most notably by Asian cultures. The Old Dhakaani Empire was the largest and longest living Empire on Khorvaire. The largest and longest lasting Empire on Earth was China. The Dhakaani were agnostic, as are many Asian belief systems (if not atheist). Darguun is made up of multiple feuding clans and tribes led by warlords. Although such a state has existed in the history of many other cultures, it is most prominent in Chinese and Japanese history (Fueding Kingdoms, Warring States, etc). There exists a clan of Goblins known as the Shaarat'khesh or "Silent Knives" that are monk/rogue assassins that are entirely neutral in any conflict and are used by the other Goblin warlords against one another. I remember a thread where Kieth said that neither the Dhakaani nor Darguun was Oriental Adventures with Goblins instead of humans. There are just elements of real-world Asian influence in the Dhakaani and existing Goblin cultures, but they are more than that. The goblins of Darguun may be a far cry from the empire in terms of unity and sophistocation, but elements of Dhakaani culture still exist amongst them. Also keep in mind that not all people in Asia were Chineese or Japanese warrior poets or women in silk robes. There were martial barbarian cultures that practiced slavery and marauding in eastern Asia.
Charles Phipps 01-12-07, 02:18 PM	Yes and if there were Huns in a land, I wouldn't say European culture was represented.
Alex_ 01-12-07, 02:29 PM	Yes and if there were Huns in a land, I wouldn't say European culture was represented. I'm not following...:confused:
Charles Phipps 01-12-07, 02:53 PM	I'm saying that a few Asian elements don't really make the Goblin culture seem the best for representing Asian elements by example. However, you raised a very good point there.
Alex_ 01-12-07, 03:23 PM	I'm saying that a few Asian elements don't really make the Goblin culture seem the best for representing Asian elements by example. I didn't say that. However, they do have enough Asian elements absent from other culture (like Imperial pride, feuding warlords, clan structure, love of sword and chain/flail/nunchaku weapons, Samurai, and Ninja-like traditions) to make them worthy of serious consideration if you want to explore Asian themed options that are more consistent with Eberron's established setting. In Eberron, there is no perfect "Culture in Eberron=Culture in Earth History" comparison. Not even the 5 nations conform fully to the ways of medival and Victorian style Europe, but work better that way than any other culture. The Valenar are not the Mongols, but they are a better fit than any other culture. Many groups do take stronger cues and seem like they would work better with particular real world ideas than others though.
johnkretzer 01-12-07, 04:50 PM	I wonder where the Dargunn=Asian culture came from. That seems a pretty big leap given the fact that they've been mostly portrayed as a barbarian horde of warriors barely out of Tolkien as opposed to a more refined culture. Who say Asian culture is all that refined? Personaly Asian culture have always seem to me just as barbaric as any other culture in the same time period. Also hobgoblins have always been portrayed as Asian like.
Charles Phipps 01-12-07, 05:07 PM	Who say Asian culture is all that refined? Personaly Asian culture have always seem to me just as barbaric as any other culture in the same time period. Also hobgoblins have always been portrayed as Asian like. Not that I've ever seen. Lord Toede: Hai! Koneechewa Tanis Half-Elven San!
Splendide 01-12-07, 05:48 PM	If you want Asian influence in a more modern context, its hard to go past gnomes as well IMO.
Charles Phipps 01-12-07, 05:57 PM	that actually works better though I kept thinking French Revolution nobility ala Les Liasions De Dangerous. BTW, does anyone think a Champloo campaign would work? You know, one where the players wander around getting involved in the dirty deeds on a very local level as opposed to a Pulp?
Alex_ 01-13-07, 02:41 AM	[QUOTE=Charles Phipps;11163398]Not that I've ever seen. [QUOTE] Oh come on man. I know you've seen more of feudal Asian cultures than samurai, geishas, and aristocrats in silk robes drinking tea, watching plays, and doing calligraphy. The middle ages of China and Japan and the surrounding regions were full of plenty of warfare between warring warlords, martial law imposed against large populations of poor people living in mud and straw homes, and terror from crime bosses, bandits, and marauders. Public execution by means of boiling, beheading, and crucifiction were practiced. Prostitution was pretty much institutionalized, and it wasn't all pretty geisha girls acting as entertainers. None of that stuff would be out of place in Darguun, and is perfectly agreeable with an Asian setting.
Charles Phipps 01-13-07, 12:41 PM	[QUOTE=Charles Phipps;11163398]Not that I've ever seen. [QUOTE] Oh come on man. I know you've seen more of feudal Asian cultures than samurai, geishas, and aristocrats in silk robes drinking tea, watching plays, and doing calligraphy. The middle ages of China and Japan and the surrounding regions were full of plenty of warfare between warring warlords, martial law imposed against large populations of poor people living in mud and straw homes, and terror from crime bosses, bandits, and marauders. Public execution by means of boiling, beheading, and crucifiction were practiced. Prostitution was pretty much institutionalized, and it wasn't all pretty geisha girls acting as entertainers. None of that stuff would be out of place in Darguun, and is perfectly agreeable with an Asian setting. I'm referring to that Hobgoblins have ever been portrayed as Asian. Lord Toede is the signature Hobgoblin for me and the Monstrous Manual of 2nd edition portrayed them as more Spartans. Which really has nothing to do with the above post. And barbarian culture can be really any culture in the world. I could say Dargunn works perfectly for Norse Culture, for Conan the Barbarian sword and sorcery hijinks, and for Mordor. I don't think it would work well for Yakuza, Chambara, Schools of Martial arts, or Warring States period intrigue, or Imperial Court dramas. I also think the Valenar work better as Mongols so what's left?
Alex_ 01-13-07, 02:31 PM	I'm referring to that Hobgoblins have ever been portrayed as Asian. Lord Toede is the signature Hobgoblin for me and the Monstrous Manual of 2nd edition portrayed them as more Spartans. That may be the case in the Monstrous Manual 2, but in Eberron, they are portrayed as being more Asian. Valenar Elves are also very much unlike normal Elves in most settings and Monster Manuals too. Dwarves in Eberron prefer SHORT beards, and Halflings are a tribal people that ride dinosaurs and revere them much as Native Americans did the animals their lives depended upon. The way they're portrayed in other other books isn't usually the way they are in the Eberron setting. Which really has nothing to do with the above post. And barbarian culture can be really any culture in the world. I could say Dargunn works perfectly for Norse Culture, for Conan the Barbarian sword and sorcery hijinks, and for Mordor. But the Goblins of Darguun are not all Barbarians. They have cities and towns. They have agriculture. They have politics and trade. They have a very rich BARDIC tradition. The favored class of Hobgoblin women is a class that is heavily reliant upon charisma. There are SOME Barbarian groups, mostly amongst the Bugbears, and the land is dangerous and largely under the rule of Warlords and feuding clans, but it's no different than feudal China or Japan, or the Wild West of America. Not all Goblins in Darguun, or even most from the looks of it, are Barbarians. I don't think it would work well for Yakuza, Chambara, Schools of Martial arts, or Warring States period intrigue, or Imperial Court dramas. You do know that Lhesh Harruc, the current founder and leader od Darguun got to where he was more because of his natural charisma and leadership abilities than through armed might right? He has diplomats in the embassies of other other nations of Khorvaire. His government is engaged with legitimate business with the Dragonmarked houses. In addition to using his cunning to guide his armies to victory, he negotiates and forms agreements with other Goblin tribes and clans, with the other nations, and is looking to groom an equally charismatic successor to the throne. He has people in his own administration that want to supplant him. They think he is leading the nation in the wrong direction or not being firm enough with the other clans and warlords. Those are your warring states and your Imperial court dramas. The Dhakaani have martial art schools. They have what are essentially ninja villages where members take ranks in the monk class! Their soldiers are amongst the most disciplined and capable in the world. The Dhakaani are agnostic like many prominent Asian belief system. Those are your martial arts schools. And as far as Yakuza, keep in mind that Goblins in Eberron are very strongly aligned, especially the Dhakaani. Any crime they perform is going to be more organized. Hobgoblins mechanically speaking, make fine crime lords. Bugbears make fine thugs, and Goblins make fine informants and assassins.
Charles Phipps 01-13-07, 02:41 PM	Well to be blunt I think a better candidate for Asia in Khovaire would be the Valenar actually. While the Riders are certainly the most prominent, the Khovaire Elves are potentially able to fill in the ranks of the Bureaucracy while their rich cultural and ancestral tradition could be accented by adding Asian influences. It seems much less a square peg in a round hole than attempting to convince me the WoW orc like Goblinoids of Dargunn are remotely Chinese or Japanese influenced. Though you've certainly given me a great deal to think about friend.
Hellcow 01-13-07, 03:07 PM	Not all Goblins in Darguun, or even most from the looks of it, are Barbarians. I'd agree. Look to page 154 of the ECS: "Rhukaan Taash, the largest and most powerful of the Ghaal'dar clans, rules over the lowlands. While the clan possesses many skilled warriors..." Meanwhile, Haruuc himself is a fighter/rogue, and MY reason for making him that way was based on the idea that his rogue levels are largely devoted to Charisma-based skills... Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive. He's no bard, but he is a skilled, capable diplomat capable of influencing his people with words as well as his blade. Now, Haruuc is an exceptional man. And the Ghaal'dar are NOT, on a one-for-one basis, capable of matching the Dhakaani. Nonetheless, they are skilled and disciplined warriors, not savages. The Daelkyr reduced the goblinoids to "savagery", but that was seven thousand years ago - human civilization wasn't looking so great back then either. Today, the culture of the Ghaal'dar and Marguul are certainly violent, with a long tradition of tribal and clan conflict. But that doesn't make it primitive... and under the rule of Haruuc, even the clan warfare has been pulled back. As for characters with barbarian class levels, there certainly are some, but again note that Haruuc is a fighter. Among the Dhakaani, barbarians aren't actually savages; the state of rage is a carefully cultivate thing, allowing the soldier to become a force of primal fury on the battlefield. The favored class of Hobgoblin women is a class that is heavily reliant upon charisma. Correct. It's worth remembering that hobgoblins take no penalty to Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma. Humans may not find them attractive, but they can be just as influential and humans. I don't think it would work well for Yakuza, Chambara, Schools of Martial arts, or Warring States period intrigue, or Imperial Court dramas. I'm afraid I also have to disagree on almost every count here. There are many intrigues in the court of Lhesh Haruuc, as the clans of the Ghaal'dar vie for position and Lhesh Haruuc searches for a worthy successor. Beyond Rhukaan Draal, the clan struggles occasionally break into full violence - especially between the Ghaal'dar and the Marguul bugbears. Even among the Ghaal'dar, the hobgoblins take a great interest in martial skill; there are chainmasters of the Ghaal'dar who seek to master the arts of the past (note that the Darguun Mauler feat from Races of Eberron is NOT limited to Dhakaani). And if you DO bring in the Dhakaani, you absolutely have martial arts traditions (albeit primarily based around use of weapons), "silent knives", a value for both artistic and military traditions of the past, and a political and military struggle between clans to inherit the imperial throne. As for organized crime, it's not a subject that's been discussed within the Ghaal'dar - but certainly something I could see. Again, neither hobgoblins or goblins have an intelligence penalty. They are not a stupid race... and clan/family loyalty is certainly a strong value, which could easily lead to organized crime. Now, as has been said before, it was not my INTENTION to make Darguun a reflection of any particular culture. I'm NOT saying that it's Asian; I wouldn't put in specifically Asian fashions or customs, and the artistic traditions of the Dhakaani dirge singers are different from any culture in our world. However, it's not a savage and barbaric culture, either. It is a very different place from any of the Five Nations. It is a land where violence is more acceptable. But that doesn't rule out political intrigue... and it certainly doesn't rule out martial skill or discipline.
Charles Phipps 01-13-07, 03:26 PM	Well I stand corrected.
Hellcow 01-13-07, 06:50 PM	Well I stand corrected. Yes and no. *I* think Darguun could work well for all of the things you mentioned. If I work on a Darguun sourcebook, you may see some of those things. But as always, if YOU want a different flavor in Darguun, go for it. If the question is "Could the current material support the things you mentioned", I believe that it can. But if your story calls for something different, run with it. Certainly as it stands, the Marguul are the most savage of the cultures and the best source of barbaric goblinoids, but it's certainly possible to have less civilized Ghaal'dar on the outskirts of Haruuc's sphere of influence and still be within canon. I personally like the idea of court intrigue among the goblinoids. It's something that would have a different flavor from the Five Nations, but again, hobgoblins are not brutes; they are just as intelligent as humans, and things like their bardic tradition and use of the spiked chain shows a level of sophistication beyond "Smack enemy with club." Their culture shouldn't be a match for any human culture because they aren't human... and actually, it's the difference that makes that I'd love to explore if I ever have the time.
Romulus LoneWolf 01-13-07, 07:38 PM	I always saw the Dhakaani more like Klingons, or as a wierd mix of Samurai and Roman culture, really. And I really don't see what's wrong with making Human culture on Khorvaire a little more multi-cultural, really. After all, it's not as if past D&D settings didn't have multiple human ethnic groups with the same Human Racial stats. Grayhawk's humans of the Flanaess are divided into the Flan, Oeridians, Baklunish, Sueloise and Olman, for exemple. Why can't Eberron have multiple human ethnic groups that mixed together in the Five Nations?
ArcTan 01-14-07, 01:55 AM	Well to be blunt I think a better candidate for Asia in Khovaire would be the Valenar actually. While the Riders are certainly the most prominent, the Khovaire Elves are potentially able to fill in the ranks of the Bureaucracy while their rich cultural and ancestral tradition could be accented by adding Asian influences. Except that the Khorvaire Elves and Valenar Elves are two completely distinct cultures that haven't even had any direct contact with each other in generations, since Phiarlan first fled to Khorvaire right up to when the Valenar were brought in by Cyre. They're certainly not two integrated pieces of the same culture or the same region, which is what you seem to be implying here. The Valenar are insular and xenophobic, while the Khorvaire Elves are pretty well integrated into the general human-centric culture of Khorvaire. The two should view each other with distrust and mutual contempt. (The ancient ancestors of House Phiarlan were from Aerenal in any case and viewed the Tairnadal as an alien culture -- so that distrust was already there.) A future where the Valenar conquer Khorvaire and make the Khorvaire Elves into their administrators is a possible one, I guess, but it's an unlikely and bizarre one.
ArcTan 01-14-07, 01:57 AM	I hardly think horde would be appropriate for the oldest surviving culture on Khorvaire. The Dhakaani use more finesse than a ravaging horde, I think you've confused us for the Valenar. The snide "in-character" remarks roleplaying as a Dhakaani are getting kind of old, goblin_pride. Also, a smart Dhakaani would remember that it took the combined might of an empire the size of all Khorvaire to evict a small force of invaders not much bigger than the population of Valenar now. Yes, in the end the Dhakaani whupped the Tairnadal, but only at the expense of years of bloody battle and the resources of an entire continent. A smart Dhakaani would view the Valenar with respect, as their closest matches in ability -- if not their betters, now that all that remains of Dhakaan is a small number of clans hiding in caves.
ArcTan 01-14-07, 01:58 AM	Also, Charles -- You *are* aware that Warcraft Orcs show some pretty heavy Asian influences, right? You did take note of the Blademaster Hero from Warcraft III, right?
ArcTan 01-14-07, 02:00 AM	Are civilized, the Dhakaani will be straightening out the rest of the world's problems with Darguun shortly. You mean by kick-starting the war of genocide and conquest the rest of the world is terrified is going to come out of Darguun?
ArcTan 01-14-07, 02:05 AM	[QUOTE=Alex_;11167729][QUOTE=Charles Phipps;11163398]Not that I've ever seen. I'm referring to that Hobgoblins have ever been portrayed as Asian. Lord Toede is the signature Hobgoblin for me and the Monstrous Manual of 2nd edition portrayed them as more Spartans. Which really has nothing to do with the above post. And barbarian culture can be really any culture in the world. I could say Dargunn works perfectly for Norse Culture, for Conan the Barbarian sword and sorcery hijinks, and for Mordor. I don't think it would work well for Yakuza, Chambara, Schools of Martial arts, or Warring States period intrigue, or Imperial Court dramas. I also think the Valenar work better as Mongols so what's left? The reason I don't like this thread is that I don't like stereotyping real-world cultures as fantasy cultures or vice-versa. You can draw parallels between *any* imaginary culture and *any* real culture and make it stick, if you try hard enough. FWIW, "Asian culture", broadly stated like that, encompasses such a range of time periods and regions that any stereotype you can think of has an example within it. The fact that a lot of people in the West have chosen to see Asia as a land of exotic culture and sophistication and Old World tradition is a matter of prejudice (Orientalism) and an artifact of the history of how the West encountered Asia, not any objective factual feature of Asia itself. Not all Asian rulers were scholarly philosophers or mustache-twirling masters of intrigue. Some Asian warlords weren't all that different from your stereotypical Spartan warlord. And there were plenty of times and places where there were "barbarians" in Asia besides the Mongols. You don't need to ride little horses and live on the steppes to be a less-civilized raiding culture living in parasitic relationship to a bureaucratic culture of law.
Charles Phipps 01-14-07, 02:13 AM	I'm aware of that. My reluctance to put Asian influence in Hobgoblin land is because I don't want to restrict a single culture into a place that requires a lengthy history and cultural heritage to properly represent the times, ideals, and thoughts. I'd appreciate you keep your accusations of orientalism to yourself though. I was noting though that the Khovaire elves have been immigrating to the Valenar lands in fairly vast numbers out of a desire to make a true elven homeland.
Splendide 01-14-07, 07:45 AM	The Singapore of Khorvaire's Malaysia.
goblin_pride 01-14-07, 08:37 AM	I'd appreciate you keep your accusations of orientalism to yourself though. Arctan does raise a valid point. Asian isn't a national or cultural label, it pretty much covers a vast area and timeframe. I realize for simplicity Asian typically describes Chinese and Japanese cultures, but we have to remember that India is technically Asian. Now before anyone blows a gasket that India is a sub-continent, I just want to point out that we're using the word "Asian" like it's a specific nation or culture when it's really not even close to that. It's not very often I agree with Arctan, but on this I have to. Asia is the largest continent on the planet and has a vast array of cultures and nations to take into account, is it fair to lump all those places, all those cultures and all those people into one simple five letter word?
goblin_pride 01-14-07, 08:39 AM	You mean by kick-starting the war of genocide and conquest the rest of the world is terrified is going to come out of Darguun? Actually I was referring to the war-mongering, barbaric Ghaal'dar, but if you want to go the other way, that could be arranged, I'm sure.
Alex_ 01-14-07, 11:10 AM	I'm aware of that. My reluctance to put Asian influence in Hobgoblin land is because I don't want to restrict a single culture into a place that requires a lengthy history and cultural heritage to properly represent the times, ideals, and thoughts. Then don't offer a lengthy history of cultural heritage. Make it an assumption of the setting.
Hellcow 01-14-07, 11:32 AM	I was noting though that the Khovaire elves have been immigrating to the Valenar lands in fairly vast numbers out of a desire to make a true elven homeland. I believe you're confusing "Khovaire elves" with "Khoravar", the half-elves of Khorvaire. As discussed in Dragonmarked, House Lyrandar is interested in using Valenar as the basis for a Khoravar state. Meanwhile, there IS a true elven homeland, namely Aerenal; the elves of Khorvaire have chosen not to live there. I'm not personally familiar with anything about full-blooded elves coming to Valenar in significant numbers, though someone else may have suggested it; do you have a reference for this?
Charles Phipps 01-14-07, 12:14 PM	Whoops. And basically yes, I was worried that Dargunn would demean the variety of cultures by stuffing them all together. Arctan seems to have misread most of my point though I suppose one could stick Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and so on influence amongst tribal lines.
goblin_pride 01-14-07, 12:26 PM	And basically yes, I was worried that Dargunn would demean the variety of cultures by stuffing them all together. Arctan seems to have misread most of my point though I suppose one could stick Japanese, Korean, Chinese, and so on influence amongst tribal lines. I've been working at making Dhakaan something that could be all one culture, but in the end I couldn't do it. I've settled instead on a more patchwork empire, individual cultures held together through a shared philosophical focus. I realize that makes it somewhat like the Zen of the Japanese Samurai but it seems to work. In a sense, I've broadened the Dhakaani into something similar to Asian, with the empire absorbing and accepting other cultures whole.
ArcTan 01-14-07, 08:22 PM	Arctan does raise a valid point. Asian isn't a national or cultural label, it pretty much covers a vast area and timeframe. I realize for simplicity Asian typically describes Chinese and Japanese cultures, but we have to remember that India is technically Asian. Now before anyone blows a gasket that India is a sub-continent, I just want to point out that we're using the word "Asian" like it's a specific nation or culture when it's really not even close to that. It's not very often I agree with Arctan, but on this I have to. Asia is the largest continent on the planet and has a vast array of cultures and nations to take into account, is it fair to lump all those places, all those cultures and all those people into one simple five letter word? Even if you rephrase "Asian" to "East Asian" and rephrase "East Asian" to just "China, Japan and Korea", there's still a much larger variety of cultures that have existed in those places than most people suppose. The unity of Chinese culture over a 5,000 year history is largely illusion -- there's been just as much turmoil, upheaval and change in China as there has been in Europe, and lumping all of Chinese culture into one attitude or stereotype makes as little sense as claiming Vikings drinking blood out of their enemies' skulls are the same culture as self-flagellating Benedictine monks are the same culture as well-manicured Victorian merchants.
ArcTan 01-14-07, 08:23 PM	Actually I was referring to the war-mongering, barbaric Ghaal'dar, but if you want to go the other way, that could be arranged, I'm sure. The current Lhesh Haruuc is described as the best chance Darguun has for peaceful coexistence with the other nations of Khorvaire. The Ghaal'dar are nasty uncivilized bastards, but they can be persuaded to cooperate out of a desire for profit and fear of losing their skins. The Dhakaani clans are described as the exact opposite of this -- they won't settle for anything less than reclaiming the full glory of Old Dhakaan, and they are willing to give up anything to achieve this goal. I'm not saying the Dhakaani couldn't in some way be persuaded to live peacefully with existing human governments as the rulers of Darguun, but it'd probably require some worldshaking catastrophe to convince them that this was in their best interests.
ArcTan 01-14-07, 08:25 PM	I'm aware of that. My reluctance to put Asian influence in Hobgoblin land is because I don't want to restrict a single culture into a place that requires a lengthy history and cultural heritage to properly represent the times, ideals, and thoughts. *shrug* Aside from using real-life cultural milieus as inspirations for incidentals like names or the kind of architecture a place has or the way a language sounds, I don't see the benefit in saying that a real-life culture has any particular place in Eberron at all. I can imagine ways in which Breland, Thrane, Aerenal, Darguun, Old Dhakaan, Adar, Riedra and so on could all be compared to various times and places in China, for instance. In fact if it floats your boat there's no reason to have a somewhat two-dimensional portrayal of Eberron where *everything* feels vaguely "Chinese-ish" the way most fantasy settings have everything feel vaguely "England-ish".
Romulus LoneWolf 01-14-07, 08:29 PM	Also, Charles -- You *are* aware that Warcraft Orcs show some pretty heavy Asian influences, right? You did take note of the Blademaster Hero from Warcraft III, right? They also have wolf-mask wearing Shamans, have wolf-riders, live in spikey buildings, and their warriors weild heavy axes and wear horny helmets. None of which are really purely asian, at least from the pictures of Asian cultures that I've seen. The Night Elves also have strong asian influences in their architecture, but not much else. Like the Orcs, it's a mixture of numerous influences and some original content. The only strongly asian culture from Warcraft are the Pandaren.
Romulus LoneWolf 01-14-07, 08:49 PM	I think that instead of making humanoid cultures purely based off of one earth culture or another, it would be more interesting to blend different influences together to make new, unique cultures, much like Warcraft's Orcs.. For exemple, take the Darguun Goblinoids.. While yes, one could base their warrior culture on the Samurai of Japan, the Japanese weren't ALL about martial arts and samurai warriors. And they were a feudal culture rather then an empire like what the Dhakaani were described as having. I imagine the old Empire of Dhakaan having influences based off Greek Sparta, Imperial Rome, and the Klingons, and mostly some original concepts as well. Modern Goblinoids would either have entirely assimilated into Human cultures, would've maintained some of the old traditions (The Dhakaani), or would've fallen from that ideal to something more primitive..
JulesCARV 01-14-07, 10:23 PM	One could mix things up so that every culture is different, and Khorvaire isn't all that cosmopolitan (except certain areas), but at the same time each individual culture isn't consistent with the cultural archetypes from the real world. For example, rather than having a single "oriental land," you could say that in Aundair, wu jen are common. Most Aundairans know a bit of reasonably accurate information about wu jen, their taboos, and their powers, and wu jen are commonly found in the rural parts of Aundair or the Eldeen Reaches, where druidism influenced wizardly arcane magic. However, no one in Aundair except a few Royal Eyes knows anything about ninjas, because ninjas are primarily the secret servants of the Brelish throne, a special division of the Dark Lanterns, and Aundairans who claim to know anything about ninjas at all frequently have wild misconceptions, such as thinking that ninjas can kill people with a gaze or that they can turn into small insects to hide themselves and sneak into places.
Hellcow 01-14-07, 11:46 PM	Aundairans who claim to know anything about ninjas at all frequently have wild misconceptions, such as thinking that ninjas can kill people with a gaze or that they can turn into small insects to hide themselves and sneak into places. The fools! Everyone knows that those are all myths. Ninjas can't do any of those things. Although they can, of course, summon giant toads.
goblin_pride 01-14-07, 11:58 PM	The fools! Everyone knows that those are all myths. Ninjas can't do any of those things. Although they can, of course, summon giant toads. That shows what you know. Everyone knows ninja is just the goblin word for Gnome.
Hellcow 01-15-07, 12:09 AM	That shows what you know. Everyone knows ninja is just the goblin word for Gnome. Please. The goblin word for "gnome" is "gninja". Besides which, everyone knows that GNOMES can summon giant toads, too.
goblin_pride 01-15-07, 12:14 AM	Please. The goblin word for "gnome" is "gninja". Besides which, everyone knows that GNOMES can summon giant toads, too. Sorry, Gninja, and I forgot about the toads.
Romulus LoneWolf 01-15-07, 12:17 AM	I kinda look at Human culture on Khorvaire as being similar to Human culture in Exalted's Creation, a mixture of diverse cultural elements from East and West... The Player's Handbook already suggests numerous asian elements like Samurai and Wu-Jen, while Dragonmarked showed Merrix D'Cannith wearing Greco-Roman clothing..
Splendide 01-15-07, 08:18 AM	Don't forget the dwarves in various books dressing like bits of aztec architecture.
eehamburg 01-15-07, 09:31 AM	Please. The goblin word for "gnome" is "gninja". Besides which, everyone knows that GNOMES can summon giant toads, too. But can't Gninjas summon giant gnats, as well? or flies?
JulesCARV 01-15-07, 08:59 PM	Of course, in a world where there are shapechangers, gaze attacks, and giant toad summoners, believing that (single-classed) ninjas are capable of such things is incorrect, but it is not particularly superstitious or irrational.
Alex_ 01-15-07, 10:20 PM	Of course, in a world where there are shapechangers, gaze attacks, and giant toad summoners, believing that (single-classed) ninjas are capable of such things is incorrect, but it is not particularly superstitious or irrational. They think all ninjas are powergamers then?
JulesCARV 01-16-07, 12:40 AM	Maybe they think that they're mostly ninja/druid/daggerspell shaper multiclasses. Certainly good wisdom synergy to AC, shapeshifting into tiny animals aids stealth, etc. Granted, a ninja/druid/daggerspell shaper is at least level 7, which is getting into the "heroic" range in Eberron, but you know how scary the Brelish intelligence services are. Why, my cousin's husband's friend's teacher's barrista's roommate says that they didn't like Boranel, so they killed him and replaced him with one of their own changelings instead!
eehamburg 01-16-07, 08:44 AM	They think all ninjas are powergamers then? Along with the pirates ...