Post/Author/DateTime	Post
loremaster marvin 11-23-04, 04:16 AM	I have edited this post because the rest of you have proven you are incapable of debating in a manner worthy of a civilized message board. No thread for you. P.S. Eberron still sucks. Bye.
Pinky's brain 11-23-04, 04:31 AM	What ability modifiers did the dragon magazine version have?
DJDave 11-23-04, 04:32 AM	well hoody hoo to you too I think you have a small point in that I think there are things about the new races that make it difficult to really justify a 0 ecl difference but there must be something in that none of my party have chosen changeling (though I do have a warforged). My main gripe with this post is that rather than invite a discussion on changelings you just posted, effectively "Eberron sucks ya boo" and ran away. So go back to Greyhawk and never darken the door of Khorvaire again! seriously though the rest of you in here. Where do you see the downside of Changelings? My theory is that they have an inherent trust deficit among the more populous races which a DM can use to offset the natural bonus that the class has. I think it has more roleplay significance than anything. and Eberron is for role-play innit? :P
MarkB 11-23-04, 04:47 AM	Changelings are a one-trick pony - they have an effective one-off +10 bonus to one skill, plus some very minor bonuses to others, all non-combat-related. If you're running a campaign that's going to have lots of uses for disguise, they'll have a large inherent advantage, but everywhere else, the other core races' starting packages will outshine them.
DJDave 11-23-04, 04:57 AM	I would concur. I have often thought that a lot of ecl ratings are biased the other way in that they are too harsh.
Doc Phobia 11-23-04, 05:23 AM	My main gripe with this post is that rather than invite a discussion on changelings you just posted, effectively "Eberron sucks ya boo" and ran away. Ya got it in one Dave. This has TROLL written ALL over it ;) And we all know what to do with Trolls!
Just another user 11-23-04, 05:23 AM	Munchkin is who munchkin does.
Save-vs-DM 11-23-04, 05:50 AM	Please do not feed the Trolls. Move along, folks, nothing to see here. I will willingly discuss anything about this setting, provided I'm given something constructive to comment on - but that gives me nothing to work with. SvD
LazarusX 11-23-04, 06:35 AM	Can warforged have dragonmarks??....no Can elves have dragonmarks??...mmmmmmm yes Can changelings have dragonmarks??....no Can humans have dragonmarks??...mmmmm yes Can Shifters have dragonmarks??.....no Can Dwarves have dragonmarks??...mmmmm yes ****** Are dragonmarks powerful??....mmmm yes Oh; and if you actually read the ECS; you'd learn that there are many many political and/or "powerful" figures that use illusion/polymorph to attend to everyday business of Sharn(to name but the largest city). Changelings fit the profile; and like I said earlier, they cannot produce a dragonmark, which is a powerful thing to have. Oh, and btw---for the changeling to really effectively use his ability A) DM has to run a campaign that your ability would actually affect the outcome of the adventure. B) Character would actually have to successfully portray the race he morphed into by action/etiquette/customs/traditions. Remember; just because you LOOK like a Elf doesn't mean you know the customs and niceties of an elf. Actions speak louder than words or looks. Sorry; but as with what SvD said; this post started out with childish antics; so I wanted my reply to be able to be understood by the original poster.
ImmortalBlueMage 11-23-04, 07:21 AM	In the meantime, enjoy your "balance." Thanks, we will. Balance will be a nice change of pace after slogging through your post and and enjoying your obnoxious, arrogant, and self-righteous demeanor. Changelings are not, as you claim, a "+4 ECL for no ECL penalty". They're a +4 ECL without Detect Thoughts, without +2 to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Charisma, without +4 to Wisdom, without Darkvision, without Racial Hit Die, without Racial Skills and Feats, without a +4 Natural Armor bonus, and without immunity to Sleep and Charm, for no ECL penalty. Your initial post says "not to tell you about" all those things. Wonder why not? Maybe because they're all devestating to your argument! By your logic, the Doppleganger's entire LA is based on it's shapechange ability, and that laundry list of abilities I just gave were all free! Now who has no sense of balance? I just wonder if you'll come back to this board long enough to see how wrong you are? My guess is no.
Brastan 11-23-04, 08:48 AM	I would like to add the by the RAW, ignoring the comments about the ability made by Mr. Baker, the ability only gives a bonus to disguise checks. One has to be quite proficient with the Disguise skill to have a real benefit. Any character with a decent spot check will figure out that a Changeling is not what its posing as. This is only slightly more powerful than rouge with a Hat of Disguise or other similar augmentations. Although maybe not since Changelings don't really get any other major racial benefit. For example of the broken Changeling your thinking of, I am currently running a 6th level Bard/Mindbender. I have continually maxed out his ranks in Bluff and Disguise, with average rolls he can pass as some ones moderate friend but not some ones spouse. I could just as easily substitute a magic items or spell and get the same effect. Last note, Magic items and spell that give a similar bonus as the Changelings ability don't stack. Best bonus only. Now Rant :rant: Next time don't lead off your post making derogatory assumptions that the setting is broken, unfair, power gameish, ect. until you ask posse a reasonable question. No reason to get nasty from the first sentences. This is flaming(especially considering were your posting) and I should report you WizO but I'll give you the befit of explaining yourself and engage in reasonable dialog. The regulars around here will be more then happy to address balance issue you have with content from the setting. Now can we start over. :)
Targos 11-23-04, 09:09 AM	Actually a hat of disguise is better than a changlings ability in that it can change a persons equipment although the changling doesn't radiate magic not can he/she be dispelled. A changling's "Minor Shape Change" ability does not affect their possessions. Their gear nor their cloths are affected by their shapechange and Hellcow has repeated that more than once. They can achieve some very effective disguises, but they can't change them at a moments notice. If you know your dealing with a changling it will be pretty obvious despite their disguise modifier when they round the corner and find somebody else that's wearing the exact same cloths, armor, and weapons. (Even if you don't suspect a changling, but know they exist it will still be obvious to most.) They can take a few minutes to change their cloths and gear to optimize a disguise, but when they start collecting magic items at higher levels they're not going to want to dump their expensive gear for the sake of their disguise.
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 11-23-04, 09:29 AM	I don't really think this thread needs my help in destroying this guy's argument; it's already been done. I would just like to point out that I believe the title and original content of this thread violates the CoC's "deliberately antagonistic" clause.
Zalaz Mavi 11-23-04, 10:42 AM	After asking what it was, the player said it was just like a half-doppleganger, so I initially said yes, why not? I don't think it's so much that he's attacking the setting, but acting on self-resentment. The player took advantage of his ignorance, and now he's going to take his temper out on everybody but who's really at fault. "The stupid shall be punished," as my mother used to say...
Brianish 11-23-04, 10:57 AM	Way to go, Loremaster.
Kid SixXx 11-23-04, 11:12 AM	So, can we get this thread locked yet?
lugnut71 11-23-04, 11:53 AM	You ever notice that when a troll shows up to a village everyone knows it is a troll but no matter what you can't stop pooking it with a stick.
Brianish 11-23-04, 12:06 PM	And then it eats your liver.
EvilDrPuma 11-23-04, 12:22 PM	So don't use it. See? That was easy. Now toddle along and find something important to do.
Argonel 11-23-04, 12:49 PM	What I'd like to know if what makes a half-doppleganger so much worse than a changeling to go from a sure why not - to a munchkin post. Looking at it I thought changling have great roleplaying potential but little to no combat improvements that would give them a munchkin tag. Lets take a moment to see if the original poster has a point or if it is a true troll. And if it was a troll lets see if we can turn it into a rational discussion just to frustrate the troll.