Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mike Czaplinski 07-28-05, 12:19 PM	Now that the game has been out for over a year, it seems that there are a few things that almost every DM, player or fiction writer seems to want to speculate on. I'm calling them 'cliches' for wont of a better term, not in any pejorative fashion. I wanted to pass them on for comment/addition to by the crowd, in no particular order: THE MARK OF DEATH REBORN: Heck, there is going to be an entire trilogy of novels based on this idea. From the earliest days of the setting, people seem obsessed with bringing back the Mark of Death, even though the entry for Vol in the ECSB pretty well explicitly states that it can't ever come back since she is the last of her line and she is unable to use its power because of her undead status (which is, itself, an interesting angle on the Dragonmarks that hasn't been explored to any extent). THE CAUSE OF THE MOURNING: Again, there seems to be a universal fascination with the disaster that laid Cyre low. Certainly, the concept of 'magic as nuclear devastation' is one that hasn't been explored much in literature or games before and has a definite resonance in our age, and it has figured quite prominently in the earliest fiction based on the world (CITY OF TOWERS, MARKED FOR DEATH, as well as the very first published Eberron adventure SHADOWS OF THE LAST WAR). Given that the offical stance is that the true cause will never be revealed (and I have a sneaking suspicion that even Keith himself never really planned out what the real cause was), it will be interesting to see if that stance is maintained going forward. DROW IN KHORVAIRE: It was inevitable, given the popularity of the Dark Elves historically in D&D, that Eberron would have to deal with them in some fashion. I personally think this particular subject is due more to collective habit than anything, since previous WOTC settings made extensive contributions to the mythology of the race (or, to be snarky, ran them into the ground in the name of short-term profit) that have become ingrained. I, for one, am quite happy to keep the Drow as being on Xen'drik, and like the somewhat Meso-American feel I've seen on the 'native' drow portrayed so far, but I am somewhat mixed on the Umbargen. Part of me wants to like them, since they're an interesting take on an all-evil culture, but part of me can't escape the fact that they're yet ANOTHER race of evil elves that are quite similar to stuff WOTC has done before. But, being upbeat by nature, I prefer the interesting take angle....... Any others I've missed? MikeC
Sithis 07-28-05, 01:02 PM	I wouldn't exactly call the re-emergence of the Mark of Death and the stories related to the Mourning to be cliches since they're pretty much directly inserted in order to be story hooks. It's like saying the Wizard of High Sorcery (in Dragonlance) that has had to pay a high price for his magic is cliche because they follow a built in story hook. Drow, well, that's unfortunate. It's a different take on the race, but it's both so different that you can't splice in other material and not different enough to escape from their previous portrayals.
Mike Czaplinski 07-28-05, 01:13 PM	I wouldn't exactly call the re-emergence of the Mark of Death and the stories related to the Mourning to be cliches since they're pretty much directly inserted in order to be story hooks. It's like saying the Wizard of High Sorcery (in Dragonlance) that has had to pay a high price for his magic is cliche because they follow a built in story hook. Like I said, I didn't use the word 'cliche' to be pejorative. Perhaps I should have called it 'Eberron mems'. Drow, well, that's unfortunate. It's a different take on the race, but it's both so different that you can't splice in other material and not different enough to escape from their previous portrayals. And I have to say that you've put the nail on the head: given that one of the core goals of Eberron was to make it compatible with what has gone before in D&D, WOTC and the Eberron design team seems to have done the best job they could have. Indeed, their handling of the drow could be the textbook example of how Eberron was able to make that tightrope walk. MikeC
LewisLlynn 07-28-05, 02:00 PM	I would call these "Subjects of Eberron Fascination." SEFs for short :D Well, let's see... You've already got the Mark of Death, Drow, and the Mourning. I'd like to add the Quori/Inspired, LoB, and Order of the Emerald Claw as BBEG SEFs (enough abbreviation there?). I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of right now.
Charles Phipps 07-28-05, 02:48 PM	Oh shush folk, they're cliches if they're done badly! 4. Eberron has high technology People have difficulty imagining that Eberron is actually advanced with magic and basically alot of people are just treating it as a fantasy game set in a technologically advanced society...sort of like Final Fantasy VII. Computers, motorcycles, etc. 5. Warforged R.o.b.b.i.e Warforged are treated like robots and they are used for all the fun robot plots that people may or may not have cooking around in their head. Warforged revolts, sexaroid warforged (nevermind the impossible), and warforged replicants.
sh0 07-28-05, 03:28 PM	5. Warforged R.o.b.b.i.e Warforged are treated like robots and they are used for all the fun robot plots that people may or may not have cooking around in their head. Warforged revolts, sexaroid warforged (nevermind the impossible), and warforged replicants. That is my absolute biggest pet peeve about this setting. Warforged are NOT robots, but I've seen players try to play them like the robot from Lost in Space. ARGH!
Salla 07-28-05, 03:33 PM	That is my absolute biggest pet peeve about this setting. Warforged are NOT robots, but I've seen players try to play them like the robot from Lost in Space. ARGH! Depends on which robots one uses for inspiration. Now, full-personality bots like Transformers? That works. ;)
darkthought 07-28-05, 03:46 PM	Depends on which robots one uses for inspiration. Now, full-personality bots like Transformers? That works. ;) Ah, Warforged druid with Shapechanging abilities? Warforged arcane caster with polymorph self? (Would the somantic component be the warforged folding his limbs in odd and contorted directions, and the verbal component be "Nahnahnahnahnah?") :D
Charles Phipps 07-28-05, 04:03 PM	Ah, Warforged druid with Shapechanging abilities? Warforged arcane caster with polymorph self? (Would the somantic component be the warforged folding his limbs in odd and contorted directions, and the verbal component be "Nahnahnahnahnah?") :D Reminds me of my idea the warforged are actually from another world that was contacted by the Giants long ago. Their god Primus having warned them of the coming of UNICRRRONNNNN I admit, I'm guilty of using "Replicant" warforged myself. Basically, warforged who look and feel but had to commit murder for the parts. It's sort of a fun balancing act to make a warforged character automatically a fugitive if he's ever discovered. 6. House Cannith does EVERYTHING House Cannith is the only person with artificers in this game and pretty much create everything on the planet. There may be a few eccentric artificers out there but expect everything to be made with the House Cannith seal on it if you find out.
Ashrem Bayle 07-28-05, 04:24 PM	Warforged...period. Is there an Eberron novel or module that doesn't feature a warforged as a major character? Warforged are the new drow...if you can look over the new drow. I love the 'forged as much as the next guy, but I fear they're oversaturating the setting.
Salla 07-28-05, 05:06 PM	Ah, Warforged druid with Shapechanging abilities? Warforged arcane caster with polymorph self? (Would the somantic component be the warforged folding his limbs in odd and contorted directions, and the verbal component be "Nahnahnahnahnah?") :D Nah, I hate the druid class. :) I just steal the names ... I'm itchin' to do a maximum-age Warforged Fighter-Juggernaut named Ironhide. ;)
Lenin97 07-28-05, 07:03 PM	Warforged...period. Is there an Eberron novel or module that doesn't feature a warforged as a major character? Warforged are the new drow...if you can look over the new drow. I love the 'forged as much as the next guy, but I fear they're oversaturating the setting. Sorry but how can you compare the 'forged to Drow... when I hear some Comic Book store lifer tell me the life story of a single Warforged ranger and how it is the greatest story set to paper, then I shall agree. :P Personally, I love warforged. Their story as a race is a major selling point of Eberron for me. I think so many are drawn to Warforged because they are a new flavor. (plus being a tad overpowered compared to base races ;) ) They are also an instant hallmark of Eberron. In the end though... drow are just played out ;)
Vharuck 07-28-05, 09:15 PM	This cliche: "Oh my God, that's not Bob! He's a changeling!" Sadly, I as a DM have used this. I wrote myself into a corner and had nowhere else to go.
Splendide 07-28-05, 09:47 PM	THE LORD OF BLADES IS INVOLVED IN EVERY CONSPIRACY HE IS GOING TO DESTROY EVERYONE WITH A ROBOT ARMY, JUST LIKE THE TERMINATOR
Radkres 07-28-05, 10:08 PM	What gets me is how often they forget that Warforged are the only living constructs to be given freedom and none of the older models are even touched. So I work on the older models that were not given freedom gives me more of a palette to work from. Other than the I am a real boy Warforged story line.
a_psh 07-28-05, 10:12 PM	One cliche that I've noticed a lot, at least in discussions: The warforged are all naive Data/Pinnochios or emotionless tanks, except for the crazy ones that want to DESTORY ALL HUNAMS!!! DESTORY!!! DESTORY THE MEATBAGS!!! *beeps with murderous rage* (and even those are sometimes emotionless tanks).
Charles Phipps 07-28-05, 10:24 PM	One cliche that I've noticed a lot, at least in discussions: The warforged are all naive Data/Pinnochios or emotionless tanks, except for the crazy ones that want to DESTORY ALL HUNAMS!!! DESTORY!!! DESTORY THE MEATBAGS!!! *beeps with murderous rage* (and even those are sometimes emotionless tanks). Well emotional immaturity is presumed to be part of the appeal of warforged. It's questionable how mature though that certain warforged personalities will be though given they don't have horomones, don't eat, and don't sleep. Therefore concerns over sex, resources, and exhaustion are eliminated from their personalities. Which means really...they are BOUND to have odder personalities than most. HK-47 and C-3PO plus the Transformers...well you could do worse for archetypes
MysticTheurge 07-28-05, 10:26 PM	Sorry but how can you compare the 'forged to Drow... when I hear some Comic Book store lifer tell me the life story of a single Warforged ranger and how it is the greatest story set to paper, then I shall agree. :P Personally, I love warforged. Their story as a race is a major selling point of Eberron for me. I think so many are drawn to Warforged because they are a new flavor. (plus being a tad overpowered compared to base races ;) ) They are also an instant hallmark of Eberron. In the end though... drow are just played out ;) Honestly, this gets on my nerves. It's probably my biggest peeve with the Eberron boards. I've never read a Drizzt book in my life, but if I had to guess, everyone likes him cause he's a good character. Everyone also like Drow because they were a new flavor, and for a long time a hallmark of their home setting. Part of me can't wait until someone writes a really good warforged for a few years, which you all love and who's "life story" you can recite by heart, only to have some hot new game designer release something else and have to listen to a whole bunch of other gamers bash your warforged. And everything can get "played out" in the end. (I'm mostly tired of people complaining about Drizzt. You all sound like the person who's Hero couldn't quite ever measure up to everyone else's and so now you're bitter. Just stop the hating already. ;) ) As for Eberron Cliches... Spies. The entire world teetering on the brink of war. Sharn. (I know it's pure eberron, but it's already become it's own cliche) Angsty Shifters. (Angst in general I think.) Day of Mourning Survivors. "Undead" elves. Giant Ruined Temples (Or Ruined Giant's Temples.)
Calatash 07-28-05, 10:27 PM	Not so much an in game cliche, but an out of game cliche. "Ohmigod! Drow suck!"
Charles Phipps 07-28-05, 10:34 PM	The problem with Drizzt is just the meme that so many people wanted to play the character rather than play their own. Drizzt was a wonderful character but no one wanted to play drow wizards, swordsmen, or whatnot...only repentent rangers. There's similiar evils like "Lestats" or "Louies" in VTM and Leogolas attacked a lot of games too after the Trilogy.
MysticTheurge 07-28-05, 10:43 PM	The problem with Drizzt is just the meme that so many people wanted to play the character rather than play their own. Drizzt was a wonderful character but no one wanted to play drow wizards, swordsmen, or whatnot...only repentent rangers. There's similiar evils like "Lestats" or "Louies" in VTM and Leogolas attacked a lot of games too after the Trilogy. Yes well as they say, don't hate the game, hate the player.... or something like that. ;)
Ibbins 07-28-05, 11:26 PM	As for Eberron Cliches... Spies. The entire world teetering on the brink of war. Sharn. (I know it's pure eberron, but it's already become it's own cliche) Angsty Shifters. (Angst in general I think.) Day of Mourning Survivors. "Undead" elves. Well, what can you expect? These are a few of the defining aspects of the Eberron world, so of course they'll be repeated! Just like fighters are a key part of the D&D game itself. "You're playing a fighter? That's so cliche..." "The campaign's starting in Sharn? That's so cliche..."
KP91 07-29-05, 12:20 AM	They already had a thread with some of the exact same things. It was called Eberron Drizzt'isms. If the !search was up! (please fix soon WizO) I send a link. For all I know, it's gone now, it was a long time ago.
a_psh 07-29-05, 01:15 AM	Well emotional immaturity is presumed to be part of the appeal of warforged. It's questionable how mature though that certain warforged personalities will be though given they don't have horomones, don't eat, and don't sleep. Therefore concerns over sex, resources, and exhaustion are eliminated from their personalities. Which means really...they are BOUND to have odder personalities than most. HK-47 and C-3PO plus the Transformers...well you could do worse for archetypes Well, the thing I was observing is that people will basically have like 2 possible personalities for the overwhelming majority of the warforged out there, and those two are the emotionless ubertank and the naive, sensitive, benevolent, and confused Data. That makes it, as defined by the OP, a "cliche" (this thread was started with the assumption that there really isn't a better word for it). In constrast, enemy 'forged will usually be also emotionless tanks, or psychotic fanatics.
Dwarven Jazz Bassist 07-29-05, 01:51 AM	Well, the thing I was observing is that people will basically have like 2 possible personalities for the overwhelming majority of the warforged out there, and those two are the emotionless ubertank and the naive, sensitive, benevolent, and confused Data. That makes it, as defined by the OP, a "cliche" (this thread was started with the assumption that there really isn't a better word for it). One of my players played a warforged who went to join the LoB's call and attempt to start a warforged nation. After being with him the character began to notice the same traits he had seen in the fanatic human commanders he had during the war. His faith in the LoB all came crumbling down when he was commanded to slaughter human children with a dagger, and after the deed was done he left the Mournland and traveled to (gasp!) Sharn wanting to redeem himself of his deeds. Once there he met with a Cleric of the Silver Flame who gave the warforged the name "Remorse," and together they adventured giving all of their rewards to orphans in Sharn. And to this day his goal is to find the LoB and use that dagger to kill him.
Charles Phipps 07-29-05, 02:05 AM	I also add Bender as a possible cliche.
DoveArrow 07-29-05, 02:49 AM	Additional SEFs, if I may use the phrase, that I'm tired of seeing: 1) Oriental Adventures in Eberron. 2) Gunpowder in Eberron. They are not official Eberron canon, people! They will never be official Eberron canon! If you want to introduce them into your game, fine! However, If you insist that they should be canon, then you'll be seeing a different kind of cannon real soon! AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT CANNONS IN EBERRON EITHER! Note: this is coming from a guy who has introduced both gunpowder and Oriental Adventures into his own game, but who is tired of long threads about how the campaign setting should incoporate these concepts due to a misinterpreted statement at the beginning of the Eberron Campaign Setting.
Charles Phipps 07-29-05, 02:52 AM	Yes, absoluetly. Besides, everyone knows Sarlona is Oriental and they have LASER pistols in Eberron!
DoveArrow 07-29-05, 03:08 AM	Yes, absoluetly. Besides, everyone knows Sarlona is Oriental and they have LASER pistols in Eberron! Exactly. Wait, what? :P
Charles Phipps 07-29-05, 03:16 AM	Exactly. Wait, what? :P It's all subtext! The Dreaming Dark are NINJJJAAAA! Inspired are Daimayo! It all makes sense!
Missekat 07-29-05, 05:44 AM	For that really great WF story that might reach Drizzt proportions.. try reading the "Tash, son of Valtash" thread ;-) Its rather impressive
Lenin97 07-29-05, 08:38 AM	The problem with Drizzt is just the meme that so many people wanted to play the character rather than play their own. Drizzt was a wonderful character but no one wanted to play drow wizards, swordsmen, or whatnot...only repentent rangers. Ding ding ding! We have a winner! *Edit: Though is Drizzt's defence... I also hated the plethora of Rasitilin inspired wizards I've had to deal with in my time. :P
MysticTheurge 07-29-05, 09:42 AM	*Edit: Though is Drizzt's defence... I also hated the plethora of Rasitilin inspired wizards I've had to deal with in my time. :P Which is exactly my point. After a few more novels from Mr. Baker we'll start to see a veritable flood of Lei d'Cannith knock-offs, and then there will be a whole group of people going "Well at least she isn't a Cannith Excoriate Artificer :rolleyes:" and "Artificers are so cliche." Or something similar.
Lenin97 07-29-05, 09:47 AM	Which is exactly my point. After a few more novels from Mr. Baker we'll start to see a veritable flood of Lei d'Cannith knock-offs, and then there will be a whole group of people going "Well at least she isn't a Cannith Excoriate Artificer :rolleyes:" and "Artificers are so cliche." Or something similar. Or instead of those Drow Rangers, they'll all be Warforged with archery inspired verbs for names. :)
DoveArrow 07-29-05, 10:38 AM	Which is exactly my point. After a few more novels from Mr. Baker we'll start to see a veritable flood of Lei d'Cannith knock-offs, and then there will be a whole group of people going "Well at least she isn't a Cannith Excoriate Artificer :rolleyes:" and "Artificers are so cliche." Or something similar. Oh for crying out loud! Can't I have an original idea without someone from the gaming industry doing the same darned thing? I come up with a whole city that has ghosts living alongside mortals (it was based more on Etruscan cities, but whatever) and then Ghostwalk comes out. I start generating ideas for a campaign setting where magic has become a technology almost in and of itself and then Eberron comes out. So let me ask, does this warforged of Keith's want to be able to procreate too? I don't usually read fantasy, go figure, so I wouldn't know. If he/she/it does, then that just completes my theory that Wizards has a tap on my brain and they're just using me to generate ideas. Note: Yes, I know now that Monte Cook had the idea for Ghostwalk a long time before I did. However, I didn't know that when I wrote my module for a Dungeon proposal that now looks like a cheap knockoff of Ghostwalk (I never sent it in, because of that). It's not fair. Curse you Monte! Curse you and your creative genius! <sobs>
Mike Czaplinski 07-29-05, 11:10 AM	Wow. A lot of responses in a short period of time. I have to say that my view of the Warforged is somewhat skewed: not to sound like a egomaniac, but I was lucky enough to have played one of the Eberron preview scenarios at the RPGA's Winter Fantasy 2004 convention with Keith Baker himself at the table as a player (apparently, it was the only time he's ever PLAYED in his own world). He played a Warforged, and so that was my first impression of the race. James Wyatt was the DM, BTW, and we played the first 3 or 4 encounters of what later became WHISPERS OF THE VAMPIRE'S BLADE. The best way to describe how Keith played his Warforged would be that he played it like a Vulcan (though that's an imperfect analogy): a creature of high intellect that seemed perplexed by the goings on of the creatures around him. He played like he HAD emotions, but that he didn't really use them much because he had little experience with them. Not childlike, not robotic, but something distinctive that nevertheless drew on those qualities. <*shrug*> You really had to be there, but after that preview I overcame my initial skepticism about Eberron and moved into the camp of being a firm supporter. It also turns out that Keith was an old acquaintance of mine from his years of living on the East Coast, but that was only sauce for the goose. MikeC, shameless name-dropper......
Calatash 07-29-05, 01:10 PM	Hey! Long before I read the Drizzt novels I had an unrepentent drow Wild Talent assassin (AD&D 2nd for anyone that cares). He was just sick of being bossed around by females, so he went to the surface were -he- could be the big kid on the street. I remember once a guy was playing a Rastilin knock off named Rast ( :rolleyes: ) in a dragonlance game. So, I took a non-weapon proficincey in History of Dragonlance Heros, desided the guy was going to be just like Rastilin, and killed him in his sleep. Too bad he had a Con of 6. In 2nd edition. Teehee :)
Charles Phipps 07-29-05, 04:43 PM	The drow are admittedly rife with storytelling possibilities. In addition to being a society that really IS as close to pure evil as you can imagine, they're a society of assassins/wizards/clerics with practically everyone a PC class. They have a 50% oppressed gender and oppressed religious environment. They're overall a very cool race. Of course, I play my drow differently in Xen'drick. I just outright make them the weirdest ass tribesmen possible with the worst stereotypes about Mayan priests imaginable mixed with a bit of Lovecraft, really throws off players. Part of the appeal of warforged is the fact that they DO fulfill the role of Robots for such questions as "if humans don't want me, why did they make me", X-men like "We are the next stage of human evolution", and things like Frankenstein or Data in "I want to be more human." There's also the recent literature from Star Wars in "Attack of the Clones" were the option is that you're a manufactured soldier for the purposes of war. There's a lot to mine there. Just to be completely original, I had my warforged insane. He claimed the explosion in the Mournlands had blasted the soul of his commanding officer into him. But Cliches again... Sarlona- Sarlona must be the niftiest place on Eberron because it's ruled by weird ass alien gods! The women must be stepford like, it's got an Oriental culture, there's secret psycho orgies, there's Jaffa with the Quori being G'ould, and ooo oo they're communists! Nevermind all depictions seem to indicate that aside from being remarkably well run, there's no real signs that's anything but a normal kingdom.
Hellcow 07-29-05, 05:58 PM	DROW IN KHORVAIRE For what it's worth, Mike, I have no plans to bring drow to Khorvaire. They have their place in Xen'drik, but and if someone wanted to run a "drow invasion" campaign, they could - but it's not on my list of things I can't wait to do. And yes, I don't see the warforged as robots; the second book in The Dreaming Dark trilogy will give Pierce a little more spotlight time, and hopefully that will become clear. They are beings who were made for war and who have known nothing else in life until recently. They have emotions but have never been encouraged to explore or develop them; as a result you'll see a range from those who embrace emotional behavior to those who try to retain the emotional detachment that served them well in war.
a_psh 07-29-05, 07:56 PM	For what it's worth, Mike, I have no plans to bring drow to Khorvaire.And yes, I don't see the warforged as robots; And that's why we love you so much.
Raziel_Brokodar 07-29-05, 07:58 PM	If you can call them that, the only constant Class/Race combos are Dwarf/Gnome Artificer, and Warforged Fighter, and I have no problem with them or even playing them...
Radkres 07-29-05, 10:56 PM	I feel are good films to show you an example of how I view warforged cold personalities. Soldier with Kurt Russell, Equilibrium with Christian Bale, Blade with Wesley Snipes, and Avalon with Malgorzata Foremniak. For the cold thinking characters that suppress their feelings from ether training or drugs.
darkthought 07-30-05, 03:27 PM	I feel are good films to show you an example of how I view warforged cold personalities. Soldier with Kurt Russell, Equilibrium with Christian Bale, Blade with Wesley Snipes, and Avalon with Malgorzata Foremniak. For the cold thinking characters that suppress their feelings from ether training or drugs. Blah. Soldier was just bad acting, period.