Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jhaelen 06-20-04, 05:15 PM	While I generally applaud the attempt to give the common player races a twist by giving them a completely new cultural and historical background, I think these changes do not always fit their racial benefits in game terms. To give a couple of examples: Dwarves are supposed to originate from Frostfell. Yet, they don't get anything that might help them to survive under these harsh conditions. Instead they gain things like poison resistance. Dwarves get a racial bonus to attack rolls vs. goblinoids & orcs. Why should Eberron dwarves get this bonus if nothing in their racial history suggests they've been fighting these races for any length of time? Eberron Halflings traditionally prefer a somewhat barbarian lifestyle in the Talenta plains, riding dinosaurs. Yet their preferred class is rogue and they get racial skill bonuses to move silently. Wouldn't it make more sense if they got bonuses to Riding & Handle Animals? Valenar elves seem to enjoy wading into melee, to impersonate their great racial heroes of times long gone. Yet, their preferred class is wizard! Everything I read about gnomes seems to suggest they should get a bonus to their Charisma or Intelligence score. Yet they get a bonus to Constitution! Why? I do agree that it doesn't make much sense to create lots of subraces that differ in significant ways from each other, but the 'Eberron versions' of the Core races should still be different from the 'Core races' if the assumptions behind the Core races no longer hold true. It makes no sense for members of a certain race to adopt a lifestyle that ignores their natural tendencies. A race with low physical stats will never develop into a (successful) warrior-nation just as a race with low mental stats probably won't count the mightiest spell-casters among their own. What do others think about these discrepancies?
therazoreater 06-20-04, 05:18 PM	Minor consistency problems that can easily be solved with house rules. However you do present a good point.
Ath'kethin 06-20-04, 06:13 PM	I don't have the book with me at the moment, but I seem to recall that for the Valenar elves' favorded class was changed to ranger.
Hellcow 06-20-04, 06:55 PM	Since I'm trying to concentrate my answers, I'm posting my answer to this on the Ask Keith Baker thread, here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3750062#post3750062) Originally posted by Jhaelen Dwarves are supposed to originate from Frostfell. Yet, they don't get anything that might help them to survive under these harsh conditions. Instead they gain things like poison resistance. Dwarves get a racial bonus to attack rolls vs. goblinoids & orcs. Why should Eberron dwarves get this bonus if nothing in their racial history suggests they've been fighting these races for any length of time? Well, the dwarves migrated from the Frostfell almost 13,000 years ago, so they no longer need to be adapted to arctic climates. Poison resistance reflects the hardy nature of dwarven biology more than constant exposure to toxins. As for orcs and goblinoids, when they arrived in Khorvaire the Dhakaani Empire was still at its height; and even today, the Jhorash'tar orcs (mentioned on 192 and 193) remain a threat across the Mror Holds. Eberron Halflings traditionally prefer a somewhat barbarian lifestyle in the Talenta plains, riding dinosaurs. Yet their preferred class is rogue and they get racial skill bonuses to move silently. Wouldn't it make more sense if they got bonuses to Riding & Handle Animals?? It depends if you see the bonus to Move Silently as a result of training, or as a natural gift of the halfling -- an aspect of build, grace, and other factors. Likewise with favored class. To me this reflects a cultural bias towards cunning, charisma, and stealth; even a barbarian may prefer to use ambushes to outwit and defeat larger prey. Valenar elves seem to enjoy wading into melee, to impersonate their great racial heroes of times long gone. Yet, their preferred class is wizard! Again, it's a matter of how you look at "preferred class". What this means is "class that is easiest to multiclass to". If you are a single-classed character, preferred class is completely meaningless. All elves have a natural gift for arcane magic. Most Valenar may take ranger as their main class. However, looking at a Talenta ranger and a Valenar ranger, the halfling would be more likely to multiclass to rogue and use stealth and cunning in battle; a Valenar would more likely multiclass to wizard and suppliment his sword with the power of magic. Everything I read about gnomes seems to suggest they should get a bonus to their Charisma or Intelligence score. Yet they get a bonus to Constitution! Why? Because it's about biology. Why don't the humans of House Cannith get a bonus to Intelligence? Charisma and Intelligence are very important in Gnomish society, but that doesn't mean that they have evolved into supergeniuses. They are tougher than you'd expect just because that's an aspect of their physiology. They undoubtedly WISH they were smarter, and perhaps there are gnome alchemists trying to find a way to tinker with gnome evolution, but as it stands, their natural gifts are what they have to work with (and for what it's worth, there are kobolds in the Seawall mountains, and they have clashed in the gem mines). A race with low physical stats will never develop into a (successful) warrior-nation just as a race with low mental stats probably won't count the mightiest spell-casters among their own. Sure, but where do you see this happening in Eberron (and this is an honest question -- if you see it happening, I'd like to know)? The halflings have a low Strength, but the point is that they rely on speed and cunning to suppliment their physical weakness (along with the strength of their mounts). Likewise, the Valenar use speed and spell to overcome physical frailty. And while the gnomes do not possess an Int or Cha bonus, they don't possess a penalty -- and for that matter, none of the core races from the PHB possess an Int or Cha bonus, so the gnomes are no worse off in this aspect than anyone else. And having the favored class of bard helps them scatter a touch of magic, knowledge, and diplomacy throughout their society. One of the reasons Eberron is low on subraces is because I don't like the idea of environment changing statistics. If it's that easy, why have humans never developed stat modifiers? In my eyes, an elf should be an elf should be an elf: Quick, fragile, with an aptitude for magic. The difference between the Valenar and the Aereni is cultural: the Aereni tend to hold to pure arcane studies, while the Valenar are more likely to have rangers - but they still have that innate magical aptitude if they care to exercise it. I'm less stuck on the secondary aspects. While I still see it as an aspect of physiology, if you want to switch the halfling's Move Silently bonus to Ride, go for it. I do think there is some logic to a Valenar's racial weapons bing shortbow and scimitar instead of longbow and longsword. But that's color -- not changing the fundamental nature and balance of the races. Anyhow, that's where we were coming from in creating the world. As I said, if you want to tweak the races, you won't get the Eberron Patrol knocking on your door in the night. Do what works in your campaign! (But expect Living Eberron to follow the core rules.)
stembolt 06-20-04, 07:01 PM	Remember that favored class is not supposed to be the class that the race most commonly takes (that would be expert or commoner anyway). It represents something about the races psyche and is supposed to be the class that above all they can most easily slip into. Halflings are so naturally rogue that they can easily pick up levels of the class without incurring xp penalties. Same thing with elven wizards. There are two ways to look at favored classes. Sideline or main class. Dwarves make such natural fighters that the 10th level dwarven cleric can pick up a few levels of fighter with no problems. The reverse is also true a 10th level dwarven fighter takes up fighter so easily that he could easily pick up a level of barbarian or rogue or whatnot.
EarthsShadow 06-21-04, 03:35 AM	It would be a good web enhancement to have to show off the possibilities of the variant races to have them get racial traits and modifiers that fit their descriptions within the eberron setting book. We can always find a way to tie the races to their core equivalents, but for the most part each major race has been changed, and some in major ways, to deserve their own cultural/racial traits and not just follow the main, core books. The elves of Valenar and Aerenal (misspelled) should have different racial traits, they are very different from each other and it would logically make sense. We can argue, and say, that the Valenar elves have become so enthralled with the ways of war and combat and haven't tapped into their magical heritage in such a long time that their magical natures have, by evolution alone, slowly disappeared from them over the last few hundred years, and that they should have different traits altogether. Same for the halflings of the talenta plains and halflings in other areas. Sure they are halflings, but they are very different from each other, and the halflings of the plaints should definately have some kind of racial bonus to animals and dealing with the plains. Same for the gnomes...these gnomes are knowledge seekers, they thirve on knowledge, so why don't they have at least a trait that deals with knowledge, or an increase to Intelligence, and get rid of their speak with animals ability...these gnomes don't need it, it doesn't fit their descriptions within the world of eberron, and should be replaced with something else. Sure we can change it, and I most likely will, but it's definately something you should have considered more than what you did. Your world is awesome, Eberron is a blast to read and makes me want to play it. It has become my world of choice. But you did mess up on this one part. As cool and as pulp noir and as fun as this world is, not having specific traits for specific races and peoples so they fit their world description is a big hole in the game... and it would be a kick butt web enhancement to write up, and it wouldn't take too much time to do.
Hellcow 06-21-04, 10:57 PM	Originally posted by EarthsShadow Sure we can change it, and I most likely will, but it's definately something you should have considered more than what you did. It's a matter of personal preference. I certainly understand where you're coming from, but I don't like races shifting dramatically by environment... to be it comes down to the question of "If it's that easy to develop new racial modifiers, why don't humans have them?" I like the fact that if you just want to be the strongest you can be, then that's what half-orcs are for, even if the race has problems; once you bring in the multitude of subraces, you get to say "Eh, half-orcs suck, I'll just play a wood elf instead. I still get my +2 Str, and my Charisma is better as well!" But again, if you *like* subraces, and I know many folks do, I can certainly see making changes. However, with that said... Originally posted by EarthsShadow The elves of Valenar and Aerenal (misspelled) should have different racial traits, they are very different from each other and it would logically make sense. We can argue, and say, that the Valenar elves have become so enthralled with the ways of war and combat and haven't tapped into their magical heritage in such a long time that their magical natures have, by evolution alone, slowly disappeared from them over the last few hundred years, and that they should have different traits altogether. This I have to disagree with. First, you assume that the warrior ancestors of the Valenar and Aereni did not themselves use magic. If the ancestor was a warmage or evoker, then a Valenar with that patron will need to pick up a few levels of wizard to properly emulate her ancestor. In Eberron, magic is an important part of warfare, and while many Valenar may focus purely on sword and bow, that does not mean that there is no place for magic in their culture. In addition, remember that elves can live for 1,000 years; there are potentially living elves older than the kingdom of Galifar! As a result, elves are not going to lose a racial trait due to evolution over the course of a few centuries. If they never possessed that trait in the first place, you could argue that they wouldn't develop it; but as long as magic has always been in their blood, I don't see why they would lose it. Looking at the elven traits, I'd certainly like to give the Valenar a bonus to Ride or Handle Animal, but frankly, I don't see what could be swapped out. The elven skill bonuses reflect the sharp senses of an elf, and that's certainly something a Valenar warrior should possess. The weapon familiarity is entirely appropriate (even if I might use the shortbow so it can be used mounted), especially with the idea of a tradition of martial wizards. And the other traits are purely biological. Now, if you went with racial paragon levels, I could see Aereni and Valenar being quite different. But I think the base elf works fine for the Valenar -- again, I can see things I'd add, but nothing I'd take away. Looking to halflings -- Climb, Jump, and Move Silently all strike me as being biological in nature, and appropriate to the hardy Talenta halflings. If you're going to be trying to tame a wild dinosaur, you'd want to be fearless (bonus to fear saves) and lucky (bonus to all saves). Thrown weapons are a part of Talentan culture. And a bonus to Listen makes sense for hunters. Again, I could see things to add, but all of the existing abilities make sense as well. The speak with animals ability of the gnomes is most likely holdover from a time when they live in greater harmony with nature. On the other hand, it's an extremely useful ability for a culture with such a strong emphasis on espionage and intrigue -- "Hey, rat, whaddya hear?" A modification to Charisma or Intelligence might make sense with their culture, but raises major balance issues; and as it stands, they are no worse off on these fronts than humans. But, again, I do see where you're coming from, and I certainly encourage you to change them for your campaign, and to post what you come up with!
goodtremere 06-22-04, 11:25 AM	I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Baker, if we're going to parallel subracial attributes to evolutionary changes then we need to consider two factors: the time that a species has been in a differentiated area and the number of generations that occur in that time frame. As Mr. Baker has pointed out, elves live around 1,000 years so, even a displacement of 20,000 years ago is only 50 or so generations. But even 20,000 years isn't really enough time to significantly affect human evolution, except perhaps superficially. 20,000 years is enough time to affect culture though. Just look at how many empires have risen and fallen in our history. But regardless of how cultures have developed, society has virtually no effect on selecting traits, save those on the surface.
Aethamyr 06-22-04, 11:42 AM	Also, evolution does not occur as a result of use and disuse, at least in our world. It is a result of random genetic mutations being better adapted, and thus surviving to priduce similar offspring. I doubt that this has been a factor in Valenar evolution.
ENHenry 06-22-04, 04:52 PM	Keith made mention about the halfling climb and jump bonus, and I thought I'd bring up the point that the average STR 8 halfing can dead lift twice his own body weight, and drag or bench press 4 times his own weight. This effect becomes even more pronounced the stronger the halfling is. A STR 12 Halfling can dead lift three times his own body weight; proportionally to a human, that would be like me being able to dead lift (not bench press) between 400 and 600 pounds. A halfling would have it easier than most humanoids in lifting their own body weight to climb or jump.
stembolt 06-22-04, 06:52 PM	Small animals are proportionately stronger than large ones. And small weightlifters can lift proportionately more weight as well.
Jhaelen 06-22-04, 09:35 PM	First of all, thanks for joining the discussion, Keith :-) I think I understand your point of view a bit better now. 1. Environmental impact: I've never been a fan of the Forgotten Realms setting and I've never played in Faerun. It's a generic fantasy setting if there ever was one, IMHO. My favorite D&D setting so far has been Dark Sun. There were no subraces of any kind, but all of the standard races had been changed (sometimes dramatically) by the harsh environment. I always thought - and still think - it made a lot of sense. So regarding Eberron, I didn't want to argue for region-specific changes to races, but for changes to the races as a whole. Is an Eberron-Halfling different from a Greyhawk-Halfling? I assumed that the Talenta-Plains were the place on Eberron where halflings originated from (i.e. the Talenta-Halflings ARE the 'original' Eberron-halflings). If so, then this is the environment that will have shaped their race. Originally posted by Hellcow Well, the dwarves migrated from the Frostfell almost 13,000 years ago, so they no longer need to be adapted to arctic climates. [...] It's a matter of personal preference. I certainly understand where you're coming from, but I don't like races shifting dramatically by environment... Well, unless the dwarves came from someplace else BEFORE they lived in Frostfell shouldn't they still show some adaptation to their original environment, then? (You could argue, that's where the dwarves get their CON-bonus from, I guess...) 2. Cultural impact: It's true, to create cultural or regional variants, there are other ways to achieve them besides making changes to racial abilities or skill bonuses: IIRC in the 'Wheel of Time' setting each character gets a (free) background feat upon creation. Something like that would work quite nicely for Eberron, too. Actually there are already several feats that have a major impact on your character and apply only to characters with a certain cultural/regional background: The various druidic tradition feats or the Dragon Totem feat. 3. Bonuses to mental stats: Yep, it's true, none of the Core races has any. It's probably a good thing, too. Otherwise there is always the danger of becoming a default choice for characters with caster/manifester classes. 4. Favored classes: Hmm. My take on favored classes went something like this: It's the class, the race is most comfortable with, that comes most easily for them. Therefore almost all (exceptional) representatives of the race will at least have some levels in the class. So if you meet a group of kobolds, for example, chances are their leader will be a Sorcerer (or at least have multiclassed into Sorcerer). Correct so far? So what about Talenta halflings? Will the typical leader of a group of Talenta halflings be a rogue or a barbarian? What about Valenar elves? Will the typical leader be a ranger or a wizard? Of course, one could always get rid of the concept of different favored classes altogether and always treat the highest class of a character as the favored one - or would that take a significant advantage away from humans & half-elves?
JohnnyONeal 06-22-04, 10:23 PM	The cultures of the races in Eberron were built using the PHB rules as a starting point. As far as I can tell, the approach was to take a new and creative approach to familiar races without changing their biology. The fact is, the different cultures in Eberron are no more dramatically different than human races that have developed in the real world, and we're almost genetically identical. The difference between Valenar elves and Aerenal elves, for example, should be tiny. They are the same race, and actually quite similar cultures. One group has decided to focus on literally preserving ancestors, while another has decided to glorify their ancestors with deeds. They're no more genetically distinct that Democrats and Republicans, but they lead very different lifestyles. Environment is another big deal. Gnomes were once woodland creatures -- the implication usually being that they have fey-related roots -- but now they've channeled their natural curiosity inherent magical talent into the acquisition of knowledge and study of arcane mysteries. I don't think every aspect of their inherent nature has to contribute to their current culture, though their hardiness is probably helpful when experimenting with new alchemical substances. I think Keith has done a great job explaining how the various races' inherent natures are reflected in their cultures. The PHB races are a core part of Eberron, and I wouldn't really want to see them shaken up with variant options.
JohnnyONeal 06-22-04, 10:37 PM	Will the typical leader of a group of Talenta halflings be a rogue or a barbarian?A rogue, of course. The social skills available to rogues are a big part of Talenta culture, as well as the culture of halflings in general. The fact that halflings were the ones to develop the Mark of Hospitality is no coincidence. They're not Dark Sun barbarians; they're clever, fearless, nimble, and charming. Being a rogue doesn't mean the leader's going to be an expert at picking locks. But he's sure to be a smooth talker and a stealthy fighter. On the other hand, I don't think the "favored class as leader" rule really works. Favored classes represent the easiest class for a race to dabble in. An elf can make as good a rogue as a halfling, but a halfling fighter is more likely to sneak attack you than an elf fighter, just as an elf fighter is more likely to throw a spell at you. Shifter rangers aren't necessarily better than gnome rangers, but a shifter cleric is more likely to have some side training as a wilderness-oriented warrior. Et cetera. You get the idea.
Hellcow 06-22-04, 11:34 PM	Originally posted by JohnnyONeal Favored classes represent the easiest class for a race to dabble in. I agree completely. In my view, favored classes represent something that the character can easily explore without making it his focus, and without limiting his ability to pursue other classes. The halfling leader wouldn't be a barbarian or a rogue, he'd be a barbarian/rogue. Likewise a Talenta adept might have a rogue level or two. A Talenta rogue will focus on stealth, climb, jump, spot, listen, and probably a few social skills or sleight of hand; Disable Device or Pick Lock would be uncommon because these aren't part of their culture. Looking to rangers, you've got a human ranger in the Eldeen reaches, who may just focus on the one class (or do anything he wants, because he can). Then you have the Valenar ranger whose ancestor was a legendary arcane archer, who has learned just enough wizardry to follow in her ancestor's footsteps and enhance the power of her archery. And then there is the halfling ranger, smaller and weaker than either of the other two, but quick and cunning -- a master of the ambush, he always gets the first blow and his sneak attacks are deadly. You will certainly see more development of the cultures in the future, and that's when you might see cultural feats or similar things (though we won't be retroactively giving characters free feats at first level).
EarthsShadow 06-23-04, 03:51 AM	It makes more sense now Hellcow, but still... I like Eberron and I'm going to run the world.
stembolt 06-23-04, 08:00 AM	On the other hand, I don't think the "favored class as leader" rule really works. Favored classes represent the easiest class for a race to dabble in. Remember the opposite is also true. Favored class is the class so easy to do that a PC who specializes in it can dabble in any other class, or even more than one.