Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kisama 03-02-05, 02:40 PM	In another discussion the topic of dragon poaching in Eberron came up. While some folks would probably want to make killing dragons in their campaign a taboo subject I think it offers a lot of potential for cool adventure and should not be quickly dismissed. Just to be sure I had my facts straight, I read over the Dragonshard article: House Phiarlan, Part One. In this document it is stated that the Elves had entered into conflict with the dragons and this conflict helped to bring about the Undying Court. So from this information I can conclude that: 1) killing dragons is quite possible, not impossible at all, 2) killing dragons is not taboo, else the nation of Aerenal would have a thousand year old stigma hanging over their heads for having killed dragons during their war (no mention of that in the dragonshard articles). So on to the poachers! First, I see dragon poachers as being similar to the dinosaur poachers in Michael Crichton's Jurassic Park books. The poachers are rough and tumble folks. They do this work because of the challenge and the thrill it brings them. Some of them might be war vets yearning to recapture the rush of adrenaline they used to get from combat. They might also be soldiers down on their luck, looking to score a job that pays well enough for them to retire from. Some Aerenal Elves out to prove themselves might join a band of dragon poachers. Dragon poaching would most certainly not be advertised in the local papers so most of the folks who sign up for the work probably have a less than ideal past. The poachers probably also enjoy the challenge involved in the logistics of hunting dragons (and surviving). For one, you'd be going up against an intelligent foe with more than superior firepower. Also, you'd need to get on the dragon continent and that itself can be difficult. Not easy without some good reconnaissance first. Next you'd need to remain undetected. Mobility and counter-measures to magical detection would be key to surviving. Also an airborn dragon has an advantage so you'd either need a means of fighting from the air or forcing the dragon to land. You would most certainly need several mages to counter any magic the dragon may throw at you. And lastly, you'd need a really good evacuation plan if things went wrong. I picture dragon poachers as a large group. Similar to the marines in the movie Reign of Fire and the poachers in The Lost World. Dragon poaching is not a small operation. You need a lot of men who all know their stuff. As leader of a poaching team you need to strike a very delicate balance. When you have more men, your numbers help to confuse the prey in a fight and ensure the odds of survival of everyone involved. However if you have too many men, you end up with a small army and this works against you in that it hampers your mobility and ability to remain undetected. And just like in Reign of Fire, you make sure not to set camp in the middle of an open road at night when hunting dragons. :) Dragon poaching would open the door to some pretty cool stories in an Eberron campaign I think. For example: 1. Late in their careers, the players could be asked to join a poaching excursion and thus provide some heavy firepower. 2. Early in their careers, the players could have joined a poaching excursion as a get rich quick idea (only to barely survive). 3. If you envision an Eberron world where dragon killing is seen as taboo, then players could be asked to track down and put an end to a notorious dragon poaching operation. 4. You could also have an adventure where for whatever reason the players end up stuck on the dragon continent and have to figure out a way to get off in one piece. 5. A dragon poacher might have secretly smuggled baby dragons into sharn and the players need to locate them before the adult dragons make a visit to the City of Towers. At any rate that's my thinking on the subject. Let me know if you decide to use this in your campaign and how it turns out.
Zedium 03-02-05, 02:51 PM	I doubt that there is anyone stupid enough to hunt dragons in Eberron. There is more to dragons in Eberron than just insane HD and firepower, they are intelligent being who do not just sit on a big pile of gold and do nothing, they got a higher purpose and rarely show themselves to mortals. I think anyone who isn't a Seren and tries to set foot on Argonessen will have a hard time, let stand alone a chance of actually getting to the inlands. Also, City of Towers seems to hint at it that most people think dragons are just a myth, and I think only a few of the most ancient elves have seen a real life dragon over the past few centuries and lived to tell the tale.
Edymnion 03-02-05, 03:34 PM	Okay, I think you're a bit confused on something. I haven't seen anyone that has propsed that dragons are somehow unkillable or that doing so is taboo. The problem here is that you seem to be making the mistake of thinking that dragons, especially in Eberron, are just another monster. They're not. They are sentient beings just like humans or Warforged, they are SMARTER than just about anyone on Khovair, they have an entire civilization built up, and many of them study the Prophecy. In Eberron, it isn't just a matter of finding a dragon's cave, going in, and killing it. Eberron dragons live in draconic cities. They have well crafted meeting halls and libraries. They have organized defenses and armies. It isn't so much that you can't kill a dragon, its that if you try, you've suddenly got at least a dozen adult dragons bearing down on your butt for trying. And seeing as there are going to be a great many very old wyrms over there, combined with the more prevalent use of magic in this setting, its just silly to think that you could even get close enough to the continent to set foot on it without the Dragons knowing you are there. You are far more likely to be interecepted by a small squad of dragon guards before you even get within sight of landfall, much less actually make landfall. Its like saying you're going to go human poaching at Area 51, and thinking you can just walk into one of the most heavily monitored and guarded places on the planet, kill a few people working there, and then get back out in one piece. ESPECIALLY when the common idea on the boards is that Dragon Magic is actually this setting's name for Epic level magic. I mean, seriously, do you want to be the one to invade the homeland of a Lawful Evil Great Gold Wyrm that just happens to be a lvl 40 Wizard to boot?
zambuka 03-02-05, 05:29 PM	Edymnion is so right about this, particularly the bit about being intercepted before you reach shore. On the other hand there is the opportunity to hunt dragons in other parts of the world. This would have some serious repercussions of course but it would be relatively easy for a well prepared group to get away with it. Another alternative for dragon hunting is that, for political reasons within their own culture, the dragons may occasionally hire mercenaries to deal with rogue and criminal dragons. While hunting dragons may be suicidal if you do so on Argonessen it is not really much different from dragon hunting in other settings if you do so in Khorvaire or Xen'drik. It may even be a national sport over in Sarlona. One of the biggest differences is that the dragon you are hunting may be lairing in a mansion in the middle of Wroat and is actually good pals with the king.
Dragoloth 03-02-05, 09:43 PM	Just to twist things, maybe the dragons hire you.A very high level party hired by dragons to track and dispose of a deviant.For political reasons or they just don't want the hassel they hire the PCs to dispose of the problem.This would open up new possabilities like dragon hunting, slaying, or any other dragon oriented PrC, trained by the dragons.They do this to avoid being taken from their studies.Platinum knight or Vassel of Bahumet become viable PrCs.Just my two cents.
Okami 03-02-05, 11:23 PM	How disgustingly messy it would be to become involved in the politics of dragons... although I do like the thought of being hired for or stumbling across an assasination and finding out the target is/was in truth a deviant dragon. Generally though it seems the dragons would be very unlikely to stoop so low as to hire pithy underraces. Making a visible effort to try to recreationally kill the planet's most established and powerful creature should have some major reprecussions. Sure, you can do it. You can do anything. I'm pretty sure they would notice. If my party ever decided to make a trophy run to Argonassen I would be sure to see they were equipped with +5 Armor of Greater Tasting Lesser Filling because the ending to that joy ride is pretty obvious. Fun, but obvious. The Aerenal may not have a stigma amongst the rest of Khorvaire for their actions against the dragons but it can be assumed that the only thing keeping them in their current state of peace and continued existence is their role within the prophecy. If given the chance it could be assumed that the dragons would love nothing more than to mobilize, annihilate and be back home in time for dinner. Due to the prophecy however they must settle for keeping the lesser races as puppets.
darkthought 03-03-05, 12:25 AM	Just to twist things, maybe the dragons hire you.A very high level party hired by dragons to track and dispose of a deviant.For political reasons or they just don't want the hassel they hire the PCs to dispose of the problem.This would open up new possabilities like dragon hunting, slaying, or any other dragon oriented PrC, trained by the dragons.They do this to avoid being taken from their studies.Platinum knight or Vassel of Bahumet become viable PrCs.Just my two cents. And then when the PCs get too big for their britches, the dragon hires assassins or decides to deal with them itself. Dragon: "Thank you adventurers for dealing with this menace." Players: "Thanks. where's our gold?" Dragon: "Right here. For your next quest, you're going to travel to a different plane! *ROWR!*" *firebreath* Players: "eep!" *gains a one way ticket to doluurh."
Wordsmyth 03-03-05, 02:11 AM	The Aerenal may not have a stigma amongst the rest of Khorvaire for their actions against the dragons but it can be assumed that the only thing keeping them in their current state of peace and continued existence is their role within the prophecy. If given the chance it could be assumed that the dragons would love nothing more than to mobilize, annihilate and be back home in time for dinner. Due to the prophecy however they must settle for keeping the lesser races as puppets. IIRC, Keith Baker has stated that the Undying Court is probably the most powerful entity on Eberron on their home turf, though I could be remembering it wrongly. Unfortunately, I'm not up to wading through the Ask Keith thread right now to pull up a quote. :) It seems logical that a 50 HD Ascendant Councilor would have access to the same epic spells as a great wyrm classed dragon - perhaps more, as almost all of his HD can go into spellcasting.
Beleriphon 03-03-05, 02:46 AM	IIRC, Keith Baker has stated that the Undying Court is probably the most powerful entity on Eberron on their home turf, though I could be remembering it wrongly. Unfortunately, I'm not up to wading through the Ask Keith thread right now to pull up a quote. :) It seems logical that a 50 HD Ascendant Councilor would have access to the same epic spells as a great wyrm classed dragon - perhaps more, as almost all of his HD can go into spellcasting. Oh so true... but I'm sure that if a prissy elf can get 50 HD of spellcasting so can a dragon. A Great Wyrm Gold Dragon already casts as a 19th level sorcerer/cleric. Toss on an extra 20 levels of spell casting, or more, and you have one squashy dragon. Or for fun and profit to scare the begeezus out of your players make the dragon a Rogue and use sneak attack with its bite. That will leave a nasty, nasty mark.
Wordsmyth 03-03-05, 02:53 AM	Oh so true... but I'm sure that if a prissy elf can get 50 HD of spellcasting so can a dragon. A Great Wyrm Gold Dragon already casts as a 19th level sorcerer/cleric. Toss on an extra 20 levels of spell casting, or more, and you have one squashy dragon. True. However, taken at equal HD (Ascendant Councilor 50, Great Gold Wyrm 50), the Ascendant Councilor will have more magic due to the dragon's 40-odd Dragon HD only giving roughly 1/2 spellcasting progression (as you said, 19 sorcerer with ability to pick spells off the cleric list). The dragon will be more physically powerful, true - but that's irrelevant to his magical power. Or for fun and profit to scare the begeezus out of your players make the dragon a Rogue and use sneak attack with its bite. That will leave a nasty, nasty mark. I don't know, I'm somewhat partial to Warshaper 1 + Expansion II + Improved Natural Attack + Improved Rapidstrike. :D Sneak Attack is too easy to defeat with Great Fortification armour.
FuzzCube 03-03-05, 04:02 AM	I completetly agree with Edy on this. The main difference between dragons in Eberron to dragons in traditional D&D settings is that Eberron dragons have a culture. Dragon culture is probably the oldest in Eberron. It has been in place since the war between the dragons and children of Khyber. It is not only the oldest culture it's probably the most advanced culture in Eberron. Dragons taught the giants magic, and we know that giant society was far more advanced than current humanoid culture in Khorvaire. We know little of dragon culture because the main focus of the ECS is Khorvaire. I think this was done on purpose - leave dragon culture a mystery for the DM. If there was a poacher (serial dragon slayer) out there, the dragons would probably take him out as soon as they find him. Considering the power of a single young dragon an organized draconic force will probably find and kill the poacher in no time. For comparison, just think of the manhunt performed by police forces when they search for a serial killer (or a know cop killer). Now transport it to Eberron, give the police epic level divination magic, and turn the policemen to dragons with dragon firepower.
polt 03-03-05, 07:23 AM	Besides, we know that the elven - dragon wars took many thousands years, and there were hundres of years between the clashes. So unless you ahve that kind of time, you don't just go kill dragons :)
chimpman 03-03-05, 02:35 PM	I also agree with Edymnion, althoug I'm going to also say that I think some very cool campaign ideas could come out of this proposal. I would tend not to think of dragon hunters as "poachers" but as part of some super-elite anti-dragon political group. As others have mentioned before you are going to need to be pretty powerful in order to go against the dragons. So with that in mind which groups might be able to pull off a guerilla style war with the dragons? The following come to mind: 1) The Elves of Aerenal and the Undying Court. These guys could have agents (at nearly every level) out in the world trying to thwart the plots of the dragons. I see them less concerned about killing dragons and more concerned about disrupting their plans, but hey... if a dragon or two dies in the process no one in the Undying Court is going to shed any tears. 2) I've been toying with the idea that the Dhakaani might have reason to take issue with the dragon's interpretation of the prophecy (and thus with the dragons themselves). I mean what self respecting Dhakaani warrior is going to respect and honor something that predicted (and many might say caused) the downfall of his empire. I've been thinking of tying these disadents with one of the Seers of the False Presage (fan material by Trolls and polt IIRC). Might be fun. 3) The Dreaming Dark might want to rid Sarlona (and beyond) of as much draconic influence as possible. 4) The Daelkyr might have plans for the dragons as well, though I see them corrupting, more than killing, their enemies (and I'm not quite sure how PCs could get sucked into this one). 5) For a more mosntrous campaign, perhaps soemwhere deep in the heart of Xen'drik lurks a bunch of giants that have just found some ancient secrets and are aching for a fight. Would they join with their former slaves in order to punish those responsible for the destruction of their world so long ago? 6) And of course there are always the ancient enemies of the dragons... the Lords of Dust. These fiends have immense power... and wouldn't it be just like them to train up a bunch of unsuspecting adventurer types as dragon slayers. [Yeah I've been looking at my copy of Draconomicon lately and am just aching to find ways to use it in Eberron... ;)]
kisama 03-03-05, 03:48 PM	Do the math. The continent of Argonnessen is approximately 5,000 miles wide and 5,000 miles long from tip to tip. I say this from looking at the maps on the inside cover of the Eberron book. I also took digital cuts and pastes of the continent and compared to that to the scale bar on the bottom. I say approximate here because the island is just a bit longer than the 5,000 mile mark on the scale bar, but not by much. If we draw a circle around the island, the radius would be approximately 2,500 miles. This gives us a surface area of 4 pi r ˛ which equals 78,539,816 square miles for the circle but a lot of it is water which we don't need to patrol. Because of that I draw a square (very rough square) over the top of the continent and measure the length of the sides. Measuring with a ruler, the rectangle is 4,000 miles along the length, and 2,500 miles it's short sides, there's also a bit of land trailing out of the rectangle but I'll accept this variance at this point. So the surface area of the rectangle is 10,000k square miles. Again we have a bit of land sticking out of the square but I can live with 10,000k for the purpose of this discussion. Now lets just get some perspective here. The extreme width of Canada is 5,780 miles. The total surface area of Canada is 3,851k square miles. The US itself is 3,537k square miles. So the surface area of Argonnessen is more than Canada and the US combined. This sounds nuts but remember that I didn't draw the map. Hey, just how big is this freaking planet? Maybe whoever drew that map should have stopped to think about the sizes they made the continents... Now before we go further we need the circumference of this circle which surrounds Argonnesse as close as possible from north tip to souther tip. It works out as follows: C = d * pi which equals 4,500 * 3.1415 = 14,137 miles (again give or take). Now consider the Serens. On page Eberron book, Keith says the Serens patrol the long stretch of beach on Argenssen's northern shore. This works out to half of the circumferance in approximation which is half of 14k which is 7k miles. Now before you argue, if you look at the shoreline of Argonnessen you'll see that it has a lot of twists and turns, these would actually add to the distance the Serens would need to cover. So I think I'm being fair. If one of you wants to use a grid measure system to get the exact amount of miles for the shoreline then go ahead. So we have the Serens in their boats, traveling 7,000 miles total. They start at the far west tip of the continent, do a wide arc up to the north tip and then arc back down again to the far west tip. That sounds hard to believe. So let's just say they only patrol from the West tip to the North tip and then back again. This way they only have to journey 3,500 miles to travel the full length. It also works out to a quarter of the circumference of the circle surrounding the island. Sound plausible? Consider the shoreline length of Lake Superior is 2,726 miles. The shoreline length of Lake Michigan is 1659 miles. The shoreline length of Taiwan is 973 miles. The shoreline length of Florida is 2,276 miles. The fastest boat in the Player's handbook is the galley, at 96 miles per day. So to travel the shoreline of Lake Superior it would take a galley 28 days. For a galley to travel the lenght of the NE shore of Argonnesse would take 36 days one way. Now someone had said that the security for this continent was likened to Area51. Let's look at that. Area51 covers a surface area of 150 square miles. So it it were a circular island, the radius would be calculated as follows: radius = root( area / (4 * pi) ) = root( 150 / 12.56 ) = 3.4 miles the circumferance would be C = 6.8 * pi = 21 miles. A galley could patrol the entire circumferance of an island the size of area51 in 13 hours, a little more than half a day. This is plausable. Ok so we don't know how many Seren there are and it might very well be they have an armada of boats doing nothing else but traveling up and down the coast such that at any given point, let's say a boat would pass by any given point once per hour. How many galleys would you need? Well one galley traveling at 4 mph to pass a single point every hour, it means the galleys are spaced 4 miles appart. With that spacing you would need 3,500/4 = 875 or so galleys to cover the entire shore without leaving any gaps. Also keep in mind there would be overlap where at some locations you would have 2 galleys passing in both directions (one heading north the other on the return trip) at a single point in time.. Ok this sounds nuts so lets say the Seren are not a military navy and they have less severe security that we all figured. So let's give them 450 boats moving up and down the coast. That sounds better. No wait, just for reference, the Spanish Armada only had about 130 ships total. Ok so the Seren have 90 boats and they are all galleys moving at top speed. Which means you would have a galley every 38 miles appart. Which works out to a galley passing by a single point once per 9.5 hours...when they're not off pillaging and raiding as Keith puts it. Ok so what if the Serene has smaller boats combined with faster boats patrolling up and down the shore. Yeah that's a great idea and I'm sure they could sit down and do the math to figure out how they would need to space their boats for the optimum coverage of the shoreline...when they're not busy pillaging and looting for a living. And remember, that's just to cover the shoreline from the west to north tips of the continent. The other 3 sides are undefended at this point. Because there is no meantion of any other defense other than the Seren. Moving right along... Ok now lets look at the continent itself. We are told it is populated by dragons and is thus a very bad place. Is there just one major dragon city? If so what about the rest of the land? I mean the City of Constantinople was only 5 miles accross when it was at it's height, and that is with a population just shy of 400000 in 500AD. So if we have one big city of dragons with 500,000 (just to give the city a bit of umph we'll raise the population a bit), we'll assume because dragons are bigger, the city is 10 miles across which makes it 100 square miles rather than 25 that makes our population density in the city an average of 5000 dragons per square mile. Outside the city figuring less than 1000 dragons spread out over the rest of the continent our density is about 0.0001 dragons per square mile. Ok I am laughing now as I write this. Ok lets say our dragon population is actually 1 milion over the entire continent. We have 500000 in the big city called Dragonville, and the rest on the remainder of the continent. That give us the same density in the city and our density outside the city is 0.05 dragons per square mile. Ok so how about one dragon for every humanoid on Khorvaire? Taking a total of all the nations in the Eberron book, that would give us roughly 15.5 milion dragons! So my question is why are they hiding on this continent of theirs in the first place if there are so many of them. Even if this were so, we still have a lot of much empty space on this continent. 15.5 milion dragons would put the density at 1.55 dragons per square mile. Unfortunately it is extremely plausible that the more dragons we put on the continent the more politics will surface in their society because I don't remember reading anywhere in Keith's notes that Silver dragons and red dragons are all good buddies now. So the idea of having a united collective of dragons all banned together singing kum-ba-yah around a fire becomes less and less plausible as their numbers increase, so let's keep the dragon population at roughly the same number as Karnath, 2.5 milion. That gives us a nice figure of 0.2 dragons per square mile outside of their big urban center. But wait, that must mean we have dragon towns and smaller centers of urban life going on here. Because there is no such thing as a uniform population density . In real life societies we have pockets of high density mixed in with pockets of low density. And dragons are an advanced society who don't live in caves after all. No matter which way we slice it, is it plausable to say that a dragon or two might get sick of the crowding or rural life of sitting around all day studying the prophecy and decide to venture away from the dragon urban areas on his/her own? I think so. Which means finding a lone dragon sniffing the daisy's in the woods or off on a pleasure flight is plausible. Is this dragon going to have beefed up security watching his/her butt while away from the pack? Maybe, maybe not. Next time you go out for a walk, ask yourself if your neighbour 2 doors down knows where you're going to be for the next hour? Hmmm..... So said dragon could very well be the target of, here it comes... an attack!!! Now who in their right mind is going to take a dragon prisoner? Not I. So said attackers, would probably kill the dragon carve it up for bits and pieces to sell on the black market back in Khorvaire to the first meniacle mage to come along needing dragon parts for spell components to finish building his new Eldritch machine in his basement. Voilŕ! So in conclusion we have several plausible ideas: 1. Given the immense size of the continent, it is implausible for the Seren to patrol the shores in any reasonable manner. As well, no dragon could traverse and the patrol the coasts or inland in any reasonable amount of time either. Given this, the security for the continent can be described as lax at best. So a landing party of 120 men in 2 ships could easily make it onto and off the island. Hell I could land the allied forces from D-Day on a Argonnessen beach without the Seren's even knowing about it or being able to do anything about it before it's too late. 2. The likelyhood of encountering a lone dragon is dependant on one factor: the density of the dragon population on the continent. This is decided by whether or not Keith had envisioned one big dragon city where they all dwell (which would have living conditions worse than any urban slum you could possibly imagine due to overcrowding) or they are spreadout across the continent in small pockets. 3. The security on the continent would be pathetic. Even by air, the dragons would need to cover an area larger than North America . Last time I read the Monster manual there was no mention of Dragons travelling at super-sonic speeds. And yes they could use a teleport of some kind but it would still not be plausible for a dragon security force to know what is going on at any given time at any given location on the continent. They could use magic to extend their searching capabilities, but I don't know of any detection spell which has it's radius listed in 100's or 1000's of miles. Also magic has it's limitations. That which can be scryed or protected against, can be studied in order to formulate a counter-measure. So the dragons would need to resort to security similar to that we use. Areas of high security where there is less area to patrol and areas of little to no security where a dragon who ventures out on his own is pretty much on his own. So there you have it. Also I read over the Eberron book again just to be sure. Keith refers to Argonnessen as a land, not an island fortress or anything else for that matter. You could specualate that the dragons live in an island city off the shore of the continent and that is what has the highest security. But in doing so means you have a landmass next to it which is pretty much taking up space on a map... Now here's the thing. When I say here that the prospect of snatching a Dragon off Argonnesse is possible, that is my interpretation of the text as it is written. If you disagree, instead of posting crap like "it can't be done" how about instead answering this question for me: If you were a dragon and had the entire north america to defense against inturders how would you do it? Oh and the assumption that I thought only of dragons as monsters living in a cave was a bit insulting. Lastly, I can't believe they drew that continent so huge. Argonnesse should have been the size of Japan or New Guinea. That would have made what everyone is saying here much more easy to accept.
MarkB 03-03-05, 04:29 PM	Kisama: You seem to be assigning statistics to both the Serens and the dragons based upon pure speculation, and then subsequently treating those statistics as gospel-truth for the purposes of making your case. That doesn't prove anything. The one fact we have to go on is that nobody who has set out to explore Argonessen has ever returned. Given that there are entire universities and well-funded foundations dedicated to exploration, you can be sure that some of those expeditions were as well-equipped and well-organised as any conceivable poaching expedition. And they all failed.
Sarlax 03-03-05, 05:16 PM	Do the math. <SNIP> So there you have it. You are radically underestimating the power of magic. Consider the 4th level cleric spell Divination (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divination.htm): Similar to augury but more powerful, a divination spell can provide you with a useful piece of advice in reply to a question concerning a specific goal, event, or activity that is to occur within one week. The advice can be as simple as a short phrase, or it might take the form of a cryptic rhyme or omen. If your party doesn’t act on the information, the conditions may change so that the information is no longer useful. The base chance for a correct divination is 70% + 1% per caster level, to a maximum of 90%. If the dice roll fails, you know the spell failed, unless specific magic yielding false information is at work. As with augury, multiple divinations about the same topic by the same caster use the same dice result as the first divination spell and yield the same answer each time. Blue, Red, Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold, and Silver dragons can also cast cleric spells from their sorcerer list, so Divination is certainly within their grasp. It has a 25 GP material component, which is trivial for dragons. So here's what the dragons do. Every few days, several dozen (of your suggested 2.5 million) dragons cast this spell, asking, "Where should we be concerned about invasion?" or, "How should we best secure ourselves for the next couple days?" etc. This spell has no target, so it doesn't allow a saving throw or spell resistance. There's really no "defense" against it. You can properly note that even the most powerful caster only has a 90% chance of success. That's true, but remember that with several casters, the chance of errors drops dramatically. Divination provides excellent defense. And that's just one spell.
Siran Dunmorgan 03-03-05, 05:34 PM	Kisama: You seem to be assigning statistics to both the Serens and the dragons based upon pure speculation, and then subsequently treating those statistics as gospel-truth for the purposes of making your case. ??? Where, exactly, do you suppose Gygax and Arneson—on whom peace!—and Mr. Baker got their statistics for dragons and Seren? Mark, no offense, but—all of this is made up. Kisama is making a best-guess approximation on very slim data, and seems to have done fairly well at it. The one fact we have to go on is that nobody who has set out to explore Argonessen has ever returned. Given that there are entire universities and well-funded foundations dedicated to exploration, you can be sure that some of those expeditions were as well-equipped and well-organised as any conceivable poaching expedition. And they all failed. How do you know that? How do you know that they didn't make it to Argonessen, experience wonders beyond imagining, get invited to tea by the very Princes of Dragonkind... and had it quietly explained to them why it would be catastrophic for Eberron as a whole for them to report on what they had seen, so that when they got back, they reported the expedition a failure. Yes, I'm making this up—but so are all of us, Keith Baker included. If we aren't to indulge in speculation, why isn't "Ask Keith Baker" the only thread on this board? Kisama isn't treating these issues as 'gospel-truth': that term implies that these things were revealed in a way that admits of no question. Instead, we're presented with calculations based on observation. I have some problems with the area and population estimates—I don't think dragons would congregate in large cities, for example[1]—but I'm not objecting to the whole exercise. It's sufficient to say that dragon poaching on Eberron is a dangerous occupation, but, really, that should be true of any well-run Dungeons & Dragons campaign, not just one on Eberron. Now, that's led into a discussion of whether or not an expedition could land safely on Argonessen. Kisama's answer seemed to be "yes," since the dragons and the Seren could not reasonably patrol the entire coast. I believe that conclusion is mostly accurate: the dragons and Seren only loosely patrol those parts where it's reasonably easy to land a boat. Odd currents, tides, and migratory dragon turtles could handle the rest of it. Landing is only part of the problem however. The rest of it... well, that's up to your Dungeon Master. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] I suspect that while they might have areas where they meet for study or discussion, it's more likely that they have lairs more or less distributed throughout the continent, and these studies or discussions take place in the lairs of dragons specialized in those studies or topics.
Makabriel 03-03-05, 05:59 PM	And you are also assuming that 100% of the nation's landmass is approachable by sea. I'd wager that the dragons chose the world's most defensable continent when they decided to settle down. Clifff faces, barrier reefs, weather conditions, Iceflows.. you name it. How do you know that? How do you know that they didn't make it to Argonessen, experience wonders beyond imagining, get invited to tea by the very Princes of Dragonkind... and had it quietly explained to them why it would be catastrophic for Eberron as a whole for them to report on what they had seen, so that when they got back, they reported the expedition a failure. Actually, it does say in the book .. NO ONE has returned :D
DolArrah 03-03-05, 06:15 PM	On the other hand there is the opportunity to hunt dragons in other parts of the world. This would have some serious repercussions of course but it would be relatively easy for a well prepared group to get away with it. Now, why do you think that young dragons have the ability to cast sending :rolleyes:. One mistake like that and you have dozens of dragons, eager to kill you swooping down. Also, why would you attack a dragon. That is like someone from our world attacking an angel.
Siran Dunmorgan 03-03-05, 06:15 PM	And you are also assuming that 100% of the nation's landmass is approachable by sea. I'd wager that the dragons chose the world's most defensable continent when they decided to settle down. Clifff faces, barrier reefs, weather conditions, Iceflows.. you name it. Actually, it does say in the book .. NO ONE has returned :D No one has returned? Hmm... I guess I misread the section on Argonessen on p. 220 of the ECS: I interpreted the passage that reads "only one professor (from Morgrave University) has returned" to mean that one professor had returned. :) Now admittedly, the language in that section is somewhat ambiguous, but I don't believe that it directly contradicts my interpretation. —Siran Dunmorgan
Makabriel 03-03-05, 06:23 PM	No one has returned? Hmm... I guess I misread the section on Argonessen on p. 220 of the ECS: I interpreted the passage that reads "only one professor (from Morgrave University) has returned" to mean that one professor had returned. :) Now admittedly, the language in that section is somewhat ambiguous, but I don't believe that it directly contradicts my interpretation. —Siran Dunmorgan My apologies. *bows*. I stand corrected. If that is what it says, I'll take your word for it. I read it on my lunch break here at work and I was going from memory. Lords know my memory is not infallable.. :cool:
Dragoloth 03-03-05, 07:01 PM	I think the dragons would definatly hire the common races to take care of deviants .If there was a deviant dragon on Khorvaire that they wanted eliminated it would look much better if it was killed by the PCs.For the dragons to be seen killing one of their own could be seen as a weekness or at best it would prove they dont get along.The PCs killing a dragon would be just that, a group of adventurers killing a dragon.Of course they would keep the contract quiet. As far as getting onto Argonnessen I dont see it as impossible the PCs are supposed to be extraordinary beings, superheros.Nothing is impossible for them. In the end its the DMs choice.
zambuka 03-03-05, 07:13 PM	Do the math. ...SNIP... Nobody is questioning the sheer overwhelming size of everything on Eberron. So in conclusion we have several plausible ideas: 1. Given the immense size of the continent, it is implausible for the Seren to patrol the shores in any reasonable manner. As well, no dragon could traverse and the patrol the coasts or inland in any reasonable amount of time either. Given this, the security for the continent can be described as lax at best. So a landing party of 120 men in 2 ships could easily make it onto and off the island. Hell I could land the allied forces from D-Day on a Argonnessen beach without the Seren's even knowing about it or being able to do anything about it before it's too late. But remember those guardian statues along the coast (one of the images in the ECS) as you approach Argonessen? It is not unreasonable that these things somehow signal the aproach of trespassers. 2. The likelyhood of encountering a lone dragon is dependant on one factor: the density of the dragon population on the continent. This is decided by whether or not Keith had envisioned one big dragon city where they all dwell (which would have living conditions worse than any urban slum you could possibly imagine due to overcrowding) or they are spreadout across the continent in small pockets. Or one really huge spread out suburban style setting. Looking out my window at work here I can see how it would work. A dragon needs a lot of room and merely doubling the size of a human city wouldn't be near enough for even a fraction of the population. For a city of about 500,000 dragons we are probably looking at more along the lines of 100 miles across than your 10 miles. This would still cramp the dragons a bit as it would be about 8000 sq miles with about 60 dragons per sq mile. 3. The security on the continent would be pathetic. Even by air, the dragons would need to cover an area larger than North America . Last time I read the Monster manual there was no mention of Dragons travelling at super-sonic speeds. And yes they could use a teleport of some kind but it would still not be plausible for a dragon security force to know what is going on at any given time at any given location on the continent. They could use magic to extend their searching capabilities, but I don't know of any detection spell which has it's radius listed in 100's or 1000's of miles. see above note about listening posts. Constantly casting spells is quite an innefective way of doing things, that is why magic items are used. The dragons have had milllions of years to set up all the defenses and warnings they could ever hope for. It is unreasonable to think that in that time frame, after the demons and the war with the elves, they haven't found an efficient way to defend their borders from invaders. Now here's the thing. When I say here that the prospect of snatching a Dragon off Argonnesse is possible, that is my interpretation of the text as it is written. If you disagree, instead of posting crap like "it can't be done" how about instead answering this question for me: If you were a dragon and had the entire north america to defense against inturders how would you do it? Ok here is an answer to that question. If I were a dragon I would set up listening posts, and more than a few nasty traps in the more easily accessable regions, to aid in defending that large area. After all I would have had over a thousand years before modern armies to make all these things and I would have had the time to adapt them to new technology. Remember that dragons are smart. A typical adult dragon has the intellect to put mensa students to shame plus there is the racial memory thing. These listening posts will signal my minions with information about the location and numbers of invading forces and would alert my guard (perhaps other, younger dragons) to prepare to engage if my minions did not succeed. Even if the invading forces did get past my listening posts they would then have to find a suitable place to land. I would have had plenty of time to make the more welcoming and easy landing sites as dangerous as possible. Even the more difficult landing sites would still be pretty nasty to approach. These traps and even more listening posts (remember the huge amount of free time I have available as a creature with a life span over a thousand years?) would signal me of invasion. Argonessen has had an entire civilisation of dragons and a million years to come up with at least something. Before even the giant's civilisation they were dealing with things much much nastier than even the worst dragon hunter could ever imagine. There is every reason you could ever ask for, merely in the history of Eberron, for the dragons to have a well defended coastline you couldn't approach without at least someone knowing about you. You don't need to make the place a fortress to defend it, just make it so you can tell whenever anything unwelcome is aproaching so you can prepare point defenses as needed. I personally am not debating that dragon hunting can't be done, just that it is suicidal to try to do so on Argonessen. To stress again, they have had all the time in the world to protect themselves. Lastly, I can't believe they drew that continent so huge. Argonnesse should have been the size of Japan or New Guinea. That would have made what everyone is saying here much more easy to accept. The whole place is enormous. The demographics of the whole Khorvaire continent are also completely wrong (eg Karrnath has 2.5 million people and doesn't have enough farmland to support the population. Yet it is about 5 or 6 times bigger than England and Wales which supported a population of about 9 or 10 million before needing to rethink food distribution). If you half the scale or double the population things become a lot more realistic in terms of demographics.
Vharuck 03-03-05, 07:17 PM	Here's a good question, not how, but why? Dragons in Eberron are not the usual money-hoarding evil-incarnate beasts they are in other settings. They are a civilization (much like that of the humans or elves or dwarves) that do not seek wanton destruction. Killing a dragon is dangerous, and selling its scales is like selling the hide of halflings on the market. Yes, there may be a few seedy characters who will buy. No, it is not a profitable market. It's just screwed up.
MarkB 03-03-05, 07:26 PM	No one has returned? Hmm... I guess I misread the section on Argonessen on p. 220 of the ECS: I interpreted the passage that reads "only one professor (from Morgrave University) has returned" to mean that one professor had returned. :) Now admittedly, the language in that section is somewhat ambiguous, but I don't believe that it directly contradicts my interpretation. Well, it says the professor is the only one to return after negotiating with the Seren chiefs for the right to launch an expedition to Argonessen. The way I'd tend to interpret that is that out of all those who have suggested such a thing to the Serens, he's the only one who got away alive afterwards - not that he actually succeeded in his negotiations.
Cairn Stone 03-03-05, 07:57 PM	Well, it says the professor is the only one to return after negotiating with the Seren chiefs for the right to launch an expedition to Argonessen. The way I'd tend to interpret that is that out of all those who have suggested such a thing to the Serens, he's the only one who got away alive afterwards - not that he actually succeeded in his negotiations. The Dragons do not appreciate or welcome visitors according to the ECS so I tend to interpret that the same way as you. The Serens are charged with the task of making sure incursions beyond the Great Barrier rarely occur. Dragon's are extremely intelligent with almost immeasurable utilities at their disposal to keep people out of Argonessen(or to keep people from leaving if they do get in). The book hints that maybe some have scraped the tip of the iceberg, but that not even the Elves of Aerenal have caught more than a glimpse of the interior of Argonessen. It also says that those who have, have never returned. Could you make for Argonessen with the intent to poach some Dragons? You could try. You'd probably have to be crazy or ignorant :) but you could try. Would you make it out alive with the poached goods? If you did, you'd be the first. If you want to make Dragon poaching work in your Eberron game, it would probably be best to keep it away from Argonessen. But hey, that's just me and my crazy way of seeing things. Even still, one should consider the in game consequences of Dragon poaching very seriously. As has been stated before, Dragons aren't just some "tough monsters". They are the most powerful and intelligent beings in Eberron the way I see it. No one has returned? Hmm... I guess I misread the section on Argonessen on p. 220 of the ECS: I interpreted the passage that reads "only one professor (from Morgrave University) has returned" to mean that one professor had returned. :) —Siran Dunmorgan Well, the professor was negotiating with the Serens, who live on the Seren Isle/Totem Beach. I take this to mean that the professor did not make it to the interior of Argonessen, as an earlier paragraph in the Argonessen entry states that "no one" has returned from the actual continent.
Siran Dunmorgan 03-03-05, 08:59 PM	The book hints that maybe some have scraped the tip of the iceberg, but that not even the Elves of Aerenal have caught more than a glimpse of the interior of Argonessen. It also says that those who have, have never returned. ... Well, the professor was negotiating with the Serens, who live on the Seren Isle/Totem Beach. I take this to mean that the professor did not make it to the interior of Argonessen, as an earlier paragraph in the Argonessen entry states that "no one" has returned from the actual continent. Actually, it claims that "those who have set out to see the great cities of the dragons have never returned to share their tales," which—you will note—does not contradict my earlier scenario of the dragons simply asking them to not share what they've seen. Nor, for that matter, does it contraindicate the possibility that those who have ventured into Argonessen for some reason other than seeing the great cities of the dragons have also returned. In the case of our 'dragon poachers' they would certainly be wise not to tell anyone what they'd been doing, or how they'd done it, which certainly qualifies as not sharing tales. —Siran Dunmorgan
Cairn Stone 03-03-05, 11:15 PM	has Actually, it claims that "those who have set out to see the great cities of the dragons have never returned to share their tales," which—you will note—does not contradict my earlier scenario of the dragons simply asking them to not share what they've seen. Nor, for that matter, does it contraindicate the possibility that those who have ventured into Argonessen for some reason other than seeing the great cities of the dragons have also returned. In the case of our 'dragon poachers' they would certainly be wise not to tell anyone what they'd been doing, or how they'd done it, which certainly qualifies as not sharing tales. —Siran Dunmorgan First of all, the Dragons do not even want visitors at all. If even the Elves have barely seen a glimpse of the continent, what makes you think anyone at all has obtained Draconic secrets from within Argonessen? They don't want visitors, let alone apprentices to their ways within their own continent. Sorry, but I cannot see Dragons who don't want any outsiders in their continent "having tea with" or asking such outsiders not to share what they've seen. In the history of Eberron, the Dragons have gone to other locations outside Argonessen when they want to share something with another race(example: teaching magic to the Giants in Xen'drik, or perhaps Druidic secrets to the Orcs). Dragons allowing anyone to leave Argonessen is a big stretch in my opinion. The book makes it very clear that they don't like outsiders getting in, and they don't like them getting out if they happen to breach their defenses. On the intricacies of wording: The wording is "have never returned to tell their tales". This to me both means what you said in the sense that they don't share their tales, but also means that they never returned. We obviously both have different interpretations on that one.
Fordel 03-03-05, 11:39 PM	Dragon Poaching... wouldn't it just be easier to jump off a cliff if you wanted to kill yourself? ;)
Siran Dunmorgan 03-03-05, 11:44 PM	In the history of Eberron, the Dragons have gone to other locations outside Argonessen when they want to share something with another race(example: teaching magic to the Giants in Xen'drik, or perhaps Druidic secrets to the Orcs). Dragons allowing anyone to leave Argonessen is a big stretch in my opinion. The book makes it very clear that they don't like outsiders getting in, and they don't like them getting out if they happen to breach their defenses. That last part is really key: they don't like them getting out. There's lots of sharing of draconic secrets, particularly with the Seren; that's where dracolytes, dragonkith, and dragonriders come from. But those called to serve disappear into the interior, even to the Seren. So where do the stories come from? Why are people so convinced that there are draconic cities? Is it all from the memories of the Deathless who've been there? I agree that the wording of the ECS entry on Argonessen is ambiguous: I take it to mean that at least one MU expedition set foot on Argonessen soil and returned alive, with, if not the cooperation of the Seren, at least a lack of completely lethal hostility. I doubt that such an expedition breached the "Great Barrier" spoken of in that passage. You may take it to mean that the expedition never even made it to Argonessen, having been stuck in the Seren islands and negotiating for their lives, not the opportunity to make landfall on Argonessen: the text—like so many things about Eberron—supports both interpretations. Now, I'm going to ask a sort of meta-game question. I'm genuinely looking for answers to this one, and I want everyone to think before responding. If you are the Dungeon Master—and it seems that many of you are—and one of your players in all seriousness proposed that one of their adventures—say a month later, to give you preparation time—consist of an expedition to the interior of Argonessen, how would you respond? You may freely assume that you have access to the Draconomicon and other such materials concerning dragons as may be needed to support preparing. —Siran Dunmorgan
chimpman 03-04-05, 12:04 AM	If you are the Dungeon Master—and it seems that many of you are—and one of your players in all seriousness proposed that one of their adventures—say a month later, to give you preparation time—consist of an expedition to the interior of Argonessen, how would you respond? You may freely assume that you have access to the Draconomicon and other such materials concerning dragons as may be needed to support preparing. Interesting question, but I think I would need a bit more information before answering. What is the average party level? What is the purpose of the expedition? Does it further the plot in some way? Is it an information/artifact gathering expedition? Is the draconic prophecy involved in some way? Or does the PC simply want to collect a little dragon hide? If the answer to the last question is yes, then I think I might tend to be a little harsh on the PC in question.
Marshall Stone 03-04-05, 12:21 AM	If you are the Dungeon Master—and it seems that many of you are—and one of your players in all seriousness proposed that one of their adventures—say a month later, to give you preparation time—consist of an expedition to the interior of Argonessen, how would you respond? You may freely assume that you have access to the Draconomicon and other such materials concerning dragons as may be needed to support preparing. —Siran Dunmorgan Hmmm....interesting. If I had such a request I'd first see what the other players thought. If the rest were all dead set against it for some reason then I'd probably turn that single player done. But anything short of that, I'd probably agree to it. Then I'd not sleep again until the adventure in Argonessen was actually run being to busy carefully plotting out the campaign. I'm not even sure where I'd begin. Maybe I'd involve Kender! :evillaugh Yeah, the group finds that in the heart of Argonessen a thriving Kender commuinty exists! Seriously though it would be one hech of challenge.
zambuka 03-04-05, 12:59 AM	If you are the Dungeon Master—and it seems that many of you are—and one of your players in all seriousness proposed that one of their adventures—say a month later, to give you preparation time—consist of an expedition to the interior of Argonessen, how would you respond? You awaken. The morning sun peeks through the clouds and a flicker of snow drifts pass. looking out the window you see, not far away, a lighnting rail station emblazoned with the livery of Karrnath. Last you remembered it was the middle of summer, you were in Sharn and just boarding a boat for some reason. It is perfect for one of those amnesia type adventures. What were they boarding the boat for? How did they get to Karrnath? How is it three months have passed?
magicmarker13 03-04-05, 07:49 AM	"look at me, i'm a dragon poacher in eberron, i equate myself to an ape rolling around in my own waste trying to pick a fight with a futuristic civilization of dinosaurs with IQ's of 300 and laser weaponry to boot." can we just call this thread a silly trollfest thing and move on to a thread that has a title that sounds more intelligent than "round squares, i believe by sheer stubborness this will work despite all logic, common sense, and literature to the contrary".
Gilganarz_the_reporter 03-04-05, 07:58 PM	: 1. Given the immense size of the continent, it is implausible for the Seren to patrol the shores in any reasonable manner. As well, no dragon could traverse and the patrol the coasts or inland in any reasonable amount of time either. Given this, the security for the continent can be described as lax at best. So a landing party of 120 men in 2 ships could easily make it onto and off the island. Hell I could land the allied forces from D-Day on a Argonnessen beach without the Seren's even knowing about it or being able to do anything about it before it's too late. Ummmmmmm...... You do realise there are a whole lot of independant Seren tribes, not just one big culture right?