Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ieattrollsforbreakfast 06-08-05, 05:51 PM	Now that Eberron is almost a year old, we are beginning to see patterns and stereotypes in the characters we play and the NPCs we meet. In a few years time, I expect some of them will become so over-used they will be as disliked as double scimitar wielding drow in and FR game. The first character trend I have noticed is the good aligned Vol cultist. You know the kind of character I'm talking about, the paladin or cleric of the Blood who values life and hates the gods for taking it away. Whether or not this will explode to good aligned drow-like proportions, well...who knows? Has anyone noticed any others beginning to creep in?
Solarious 06-08-05, 06:07 PM	Good aligned Vol cultists? They're already practically everywhere. They just kinda lie low for the most part since others view them as the traditional necromacers who want to kill everyone to turn them into zombie labourers. :P Something I notice every now and then is the Mournland-twisted Warlock. Of course, the Mournland is the Mournland, what do you expect? Another trend is the Dragonmarked heir who is alienated from the practices of the larger 'family'. Aside from those, I personally don't see that many 'trends', and then, infrequently. Maybe someone with more exposure than me? :)
talion09 06-08-05, 06:11 PM	excoriate dragonmark heirs Not to take anything away from Hellcow and Daine & Co, but there have been a lot of excoriate characters popping up on the boards, although not in my game at least. --- On a somewhat related note, I'm a little tired of the Emerald Claw as the evil badguys. Not that they don't make good badguys, but they are a little overused in the official WOTC stuff. 2 out of 3 novels so far, and all three official adventures (excluding Dungeon mini-adventures) have used the Emerald Claw as the main badguys, and its starting to get repetitive. Lets see some more novels/published adventures showing some love for the Aurum, Lords of Dusts, Daelkyr, Quori, etc.... Eberron has a great cast of factions and organizations, so lets use a little more than Emerald Claw/Blood of Vol...
Hellcow 06-08-05, 07:25 PM	Lets see some more novels/published adventures showing some love for the Aurum, Lords of Dusts, Daelkyr, Quori, etc... Well, City of Towers had three of your four, so I'm trying. ;) Of course, the problem with the more subtle organizations is that you may not recognize them right away...
Ibbins 06-08-05, 07:52 PM	Aye, I'm still clueless as to how to incorporate any of those chums without the PCs just getting ticked off at me for being inexplicably evil for apparently no reason.
KP91 06-08-05, 08:08 PM	Well, City of Towers had three of your four, so I'm trying. ;) Of course, the problem with the more subtle organizations is that you may not recognize them right away... Aurum or Lords of Dust? I wonder which. Another trend are psionic changelings. In the CoT and the Marked for Death novels.
Gurv 06-08-05, 08:17 PM	Of course, the problem with the more subtle organizations is that you may not recognize them right away...My players yelled at Erandis Vol. Pretty much told her off when she caught them sneaking into her castle to free a friend who had been lost to the Order of the Emerald Claw and their vampire leader (the players really didn't know it was her). I am well aware that there was no way that they could have accomplished what they did that game without her allowing it. She was going to turn them all into ghouls before they stood up to her. Now they are unknowingly acting as her dupes. The last thing they heard from her was "I think I am being too subtle with you".
talion09 06-08-05, 08:40 PM	Yep, players don't always catch on to the "subtle" things, lol --- Humorous, but off-topic: My players around 12 sessions ago came across a tome written in Xendrik heiroglyphics. Rather unusual since they found it in a secret room in a bandit fortress on the border of Aundair & Breland. One of the PC's uses a glyphbook & Decipher Script to quickly figure out that there is a lot of references to gates, portals, the Last War, constellations, summoning & Quori in the tome. Said PC's then proceed to shove the book into the bag of holding and promptly forget about it. Only to bring it out everyone once in a while during the dividing of treasure, only to shove it back into the bag again. Oh, and they knew it was magic off the start, due to liberal use of a wand of detect magic on pretty much any loot found. As good PC's, they proceed to ignore the following "subtle" hints that the book is important, and they should either decipher it fully or get rid of it. 1. A Vampire of the Emerald Claw (Garrow) makes an attack on the party, specifically stating he wants the tome, following SOTLW. 2. At the ir'Tain gala, an ir'Tain scion, Mhaedros, makes an substantial offer for the book, if the PC's happen to of come across it. He was a "prisoner" in the bandit base, and the reason the PC's were there in the first place. (To rescue him) 3. On the lightning rail between Gatherhold & Sharn, the PC's are attacked by an assassin also searching for the book. Afterwards, they learn that the assassin is a former Last War spec-ops veteran who is powerful enough that House Thuranni came to an "agreement" with him instead of taking him out. --- Basically, in between each adventure, I gave the PC's an encounter revolving around someone trying to get the book. One of the PC's takes a copy of the book to a Morgrave scholar in hopes of speeding up the translation process. That scholar studies the copy, and then commits suicide two days later. My PC's shrug that off as coincidence and get back on with making money and earning exp, shoving the book back into the ever-present bag of holding. --- 4. The PC's finally have a clue that the book might be important. They proceed to go to a church in Sharn and immerse the book in a font of holy water. The water boils and turn to blood, the statues of the Host start to weep blood, the room darkens, the priest with them falls into convulsions, etc... At this point, my PC's say "Maybe we should look into this magic book about quori and summoning that we have been carrying around FOR 3 MONTHS OF GAME TIME!" That was last session that they had the epiphany that the book was important. I figured they would catch on way earlier, like say they first time they attempted to decipher it.
Hellcow 06-08-05, 08:43 PM	Aurum or Lords of Dust? I wonder which. The answer can be found on page 316, if you know your organizations. Aye, I'm still clueless as to how to incorporate any of those chums without the PCs just getting ticked off at me for being inexplicably evil for apparently no reason. The Cults of the Dragon Below are relatively easy. The article in the recent issue of Dragon gives a few suggestions on this front. The Lords of Dust can be trickier, but I hope to have the opportunity to go into more detail about them in the near future - and keep an eye on the conversion notes for the Age of Worms adventure path (when they fianlly go up). And, of course, the next two books in the Dreaming Dark series will, surprisingly enough, deal more directly with the Dreaming Dark.
Gurv 06-08-05, 09:03 PM	And, of course, the next two books in the Dreaming Dark series will, surprisingly enough, deal more directly with the Dreaming Dark.And you call yourself subtle... :P Can you imagine the confusion you could have sown if no psionics, kalashtar, or Inspired ever came up in the trilogy at all? :schemes:
KP91 06-08-05, 09:25 PM	The answer can be found on page 316, if you know your organizations. *GASP* Talk about a spoiler. I'm guesiing you mean (and I'm not saying a name because of the no novel rule) the female gnome who works on illegal imports who name happens to be the first thing on the page and is one of the employers of the characters is in the Aurum (she doesn't seem very Lords of Dust or at least I hope not and she has the rings that correspond to the platinum level in the Aurum).
Solarious 06-08-05, 09:30 PM	Can you imagine the confusion you could have sown if no psionics, kalashtar, or Inspired ever came up in the trilogy at all? :schemes: There would be no confusion, just suspicions that Hellcow has been secretly consorting with the Daelkyr.
Beleriphon 06-09-05, 12:49 AM	There would be no confusion, just suspicions that Hellcow has been secretly consorting with the Daelkyr. Nope, just a mindflayer thrall. My thrall that is *Dr. Zoidberg noises*
ryanroyce 06-09-05, 02:05 AM	Something I notice every now and then is the Mournland-twisted Warlock. Of course, the Mournland is the Mournland, what do you expect? And here I thought I had a nifty idea. :doh: Where have you seen Mournland-Warlocks before (aside from Elric, of course!)? Ryan
ussie 06-09-05, 02:16 AM	LOL ! omg your game players are sooooooooooooooooooooooooo clueless i love all of them
Hellcow 06-09-05, 03:19 AM	Where have you seen Mournland-Warlocks before (aside from Elric, of course!)? An adventure I've been running at cons uses a warforged warlock affected by/drawing power from the Mournland.
Isran_Imrador 06-09-05, 09:04 AM	Not that iam tired of them but the Silver flame paladin with bow is stating to get a few members here in trondheim..
The Fireballed Mage 06-09-05, 09:56 AM	--- 4. The PC's finally have a clue that the book might be important. They proceed to go to a church in Sharn and immerse the book in a font of holy water. The water boils and turn to blood, the statues of the Host start to weep blood, the room darkens, the priest with them falls into convulsions, etc... At this point, my PC's say "Maybe we should look into this magic book about quori and summoning that we have been carrying around FOR 3 MONTHS OF GAME TIME!" And that, dear DMs, is what happens when the players, not the characters, fail their DC 5 Wisdom checks. :D
fuindordm 06-09-05, 11:00 AM	Yep, players don't always catch on to the "subtle" things, lol 4. The PC's finally have a clue that the book might be important. They proceed to go to a church in Sharn and immerse the book in a font of holy water. The water boils and turn to blood, the statues of the Host start to weep blood, the room darkens, the priest with them falls into convulsions, etc... At this point, my PC's say "Maybe we should look into this magic book about quori and summoning that we have been carrying around FOR 3 MONTHS OF GAME TIME!" That's awesome. Any more stories like that out there to share? Ben
ryanroyce 06-09-05, 01:27 PM	An adventure I've been running at cons uses a warforged warlock affected by/drawing power from the Mournland. Ah. Which cons? The only one I attend is Dragon*Con, here in Atlanta. My warlock is a Khorvaire elf of Cyre who was caught in the mist-blast of the Mourning. He survived, but his body was laced with several pseudo-dragonmarks unlike anything that the Houses possess. Each of these 'marks' are the source of a different invocation (including detect magic and eldritch blast) and are warm to the touch. For the last four years, he's been wandering Khorvaire and desperately trying to stay off the radar of the Houses, the Twelve, and Host knows who else might want to get their hands on him. Ryan
Hellcow 06-09-05, 02:15 PM	Not that iam tired of them but the Silver flame paladin with bow is stating to get a few members here in trondheim.. Of course, any paladin of the Silver Flame SHOULD use the longbow, since it's the favored weapon of the Flame. So while it might get annoying, I think it's a slightly different category than "Despite drow being vile and evil, every drow I meet is a chaotic good dual-wielding ranger who's turned his back on the ways of his kindred." Ah. Which cons? The only one I attend is Dragon*Con, here in Atlanta. Recently, KublaCon in SF, and Conquest LA, and Genghis Con and OPUS in Denver (sort of a Mongol theme). I post my con schedule on my website. (http://www.bossythecow.com/) I've never been to Dragon*Con, but I'd like to someday.
Gurv 06-09-05, 03:18 PM	Of course, any paladin of the Silver Flame SHOULD use the longbow, since it's the favored weapon of the Flame. So while it might get annoying, I think it's a slightly different category than "Despite drow being vile and evil, every drow I meet is a chaotic good dual-wielding ranger who's turned his back on the ways of his kindred." Exactly. A paladin of the Silver Flame using a bow is the proper archetype, while Drizzt is the reverse of the drow-archtype. I believe that is what this thread is about: oddly predominant role reversal. I think the "friendly warforged" is becoming common, but I think that was expected by the designers. So the archtype really is warforged discovering his inner self and discovering things like feelings. Other than that, I haven't seen anything that seems remotely Drizzt-like, aside from a couple of people trying to play his clones in Eberron.
Rechan 06-09-05, 04:10 PM	I've seen a lot of talk about a Warlock of the Silver Flame, but then I don't like the 'YOU MUST BE LINKED TO DEMONS' that comes off Warlocks. (snfl, wished GM took warlocks seriously). I think 'Shifter who wants to return Lycanthropy to a thriving state and expose the corruption and errors that the Silver Flame executed during the Purge' might apply, but then, that's just me. ;) And the Sybris or Eberron kobolds who want to venerate the good or neutral dragons and convert other nests to good, I've seen too, but this are again mostly mine. For I long for a paladin kobold. Ahem. Back to the thread.
The Dreaming Duck 06-09-05, 04:25 PM	I think 'Shifter who wants to return Lycanthropy to a thriving state and expose the corruption and errors that the Silver Flame executed during the Purge' might apply, but then, that's just me. ;) Yes, I've seen a lot of this too. Though in my experience, it's more often "wants to restore lycanthropy and utterly destroy the Church and all its followers" as opposed to "expose the corruption." Which I find to be amusing, since morally it puts those characters on exactly the same level as the people who ordered the Purge - being willing to kill innocents in order to deal with the bad folks that share their characteristics. And given that the Purge was so long ago and seems to be something the current administration would be less likely to order, the balance of innocent-to-guilty is probably far higher than it was in the case of the Purge.
Rechan 06-09-05, 05:08 PM	Yes, I've seen a lot of this too. Though in my experience, it's more often "wants to restore lycanthropy and utterly destroy the Church and all its followers" as opposed to "expose the corruption." Which I find to be amusing, since morally it puts those characters on exactly the same level as the people who ordered the Purge - being willing to kill innocents in order to deal with the bad folks that share their characteristics. And given that the Purge was so long ago and seems to be something the current administration would be less likely to order, the balance of innocent-to-guilty is probably far higher than it was in the case of the Purge. Tangent time! Heh. However, they could point the bloody finger at the Puritans currently holed up in Aundair; the Puritans were the ones who pushed for the Purge, and are still "monsters are evil!" To a Shifter who understands the politics of the Silver Flame and learns how the Purge went down, the Puritans should seem like the KKK, and thus Shifters would target them rather than the Silver Flame as a whole. It would probably take a Dreamsight or other High Wisdom Shifter to differentiate and not go full on indiscriminate killing. But then, I hate just utterly painting one guy as the badguy and the other as the obviously good guy. For instance, "Restore Lycanthropy with order; removing the overly evil individuals, setting up a universal Code of Conduct and a Pact, and destroying Infected lycanthropes because they are an abomination and a risk". Now the challenge is not 'put the sword to all the Flamers and bring back baby eating lycanthropes' but just a disagreement on the evilness of lycanthropes and the guilt of the puritans. "Reasonable", and not "wholely" unjust and evil; just questionable shades of grey.
Solarious 06-09-05, 05:32 PM	Nope, just a mindflayer thrall. My thrall that is *Dr. Zoidberg noises* I like you already. When do we take over the world? And that, dear DMs, is what happens when the players, not the characters, fail their DC 5 Wisdom checks. :D Only DC 5? I was thinking something in the negatives.
Teron Gorefiend 06-09-05, 08:49 PM	Tangent time! Heh. However, they could point the bloody finger at the Puritans currently holed up in Aundair; the Puritans were the ones who pushed for the Purge, and are still "monsters are evil!" To a Shifter who understands the politics of the Silver Flame and learns how the Purge went down, the Puritans should seem like the KKK, and thus Shifters would target them rather than the Silver Flame as a whole. It would probably take a Dreamsight or other High Wisdom Shifter to differentiate and not go full on indiscriminate killing. But then, I hate just utterly painting one guy as the badguy and the other as the obviously good guy. For instance, "Restore Lycanthropy with order; removing the overly evil individuals, setting up a universal Code of Conduct and a Pact, and destroying Infected lycanthropes because they are an abomination and a risk". Now the challenge is not 'put the sword to all the Flamers and bring back baby eating lycanthropes' but just a disagreement on the evilness of lycanthropes and the guilt of the puritans. "Reasonable", and not "wholely" unjust and evil; just questionable shades of grey. To be fair, the Aundairian people pushed for the purge because they were being slaughtered and cursed by bloodthirsty monsters. The approach was imperfect, but those were desperate times; even good lycanthropes were inexplicably turning evil. The Church did try to solve the underlying spiritual problem as well as fight the lycanthropes themselves. To compare the Puritans as a whole to the KKK is quite unfair, and I wouldn't consider a shifter with such views well-informed. At most, any KKK-like deliberate persecution would be the work of a minor faction among the Puritans.
Ibbins 06-09-05, 08:50 PM	Just trying to get a bit more on-topic, here (though I recognize that I helped pull it OT). Seems to me that to truly find another Drizzt-ism we don't need old cliches, we need a specific example of a character that is the first in a slew of cliched guys. Think about the dual-wielding good drow, and recall that he was the original, he was supposed to be an insanely cool, unique style of character, until all the noobs and munchkins sorta said 'screw that' and copied the concept about 17 trillion times. I haven't read any Eberron books (though I figure I should this summer), so I'm not familiar with any potential characters who could become the Drizzt of Eberron. All those guys mentioned, like the Mournland Warlock and the Bow-wielding Silver Flame Pally, aren't Drizzt-isms, because none were based on a single character from the start.
Teron Gorefiend 06-09-05, 09:17 PM	Just trying to get a bit more on-topic, here (though I recognize that I helped pull it OT). Seems to me that to truly find another Drizzt-ism we don't need old cliches, we need a specific example of a character that is the first in a slew of cliched guys. Think about the dual-wielding good drow, and recall that he was the original, he was supposed to be an insanely cool, unique style of character, until all the noobs and munchkins sorta said 'screw that' and copied the concept about 17 trillion times. I haven't read any Eberron books (though I figure I should this summer), so I'm not familiar with any potential characters who could become the Drizzt of Eberron. All those guys mentioned, like the Mournland Warlock and the Bow-wielding Silver Flame Pally, aren't Drizzt-isms, because none were based on a single character from the start. A while back someone expressed an interest in imitating Burch from the Marked For Death book, but as far as I know that was an isolated case. City of Towers has been out longer and I don't think there's been anything of the sort based on it. Early on, I half-expected the obligatory warforged character (who turned out to be an archer named Pierce, if I'm not mistaken) to get that kind of attention, but it hasn't happened yet. I assume it must have taken several books before Drizzt became as popular as he is now; it seems Wizards will stick to publishing unrelated trilogies for Eberron for the forseeable future, which may not provide enough exposure to any one character for something similar to happen. On a related note, I think the current approach to Eberron novels (unrelated trilogies) is ideal, because I don't think Eberron needs a FR-esque meta-plot anytime soon, if at all, and recurring, power-accruing characters are a big step towards pointlessly world-altering novels.
Ibbins 06-09-05, 09:19 PM	On a related note, I think the current approach to Eberron novels (unrelated trilogies) is ideal, because I don't think Eberron needs a FR-esque meta-plot anytime soon, if at all, and recurring, power-accruing characters are a big step towards pointlessly world-altering novels. Amazingly true.
Rechan 06-09-05, 09:35 PM	To compare the Puritans as a whole to the KKK is quite unfair, and I wouldn't consider a shifter with such views well-informed. At most, any KKK-like deliberate persecution would be the work of a minor faction among the Puritans. Seeing as the Silver Flame unfairly slaughtered Shifters, I think the analogy is somewhat fair. And, the Puritains now don't need to be so ... well, Puritan. I mean, they're called Puritans for a reason - I don't think they're warm and fuzzy and huggable towards everyone. ;) Hmm. I seem to be attributing to the derailment here, so uh... Seems to me that to truly find another Drizzt-ism we don't need old cliches, we need a specific example of a character that is the first in a slew of cliched guys. Think about the dual-wielding good drow, and recall that he was the original, he was supposed to be an insanely cool, unique style of character, until all the noobs and munchkins sorta said 'screw that' and copied the concept about 17 trillion times. What you said.
Teron Gorefiend 06-09-05, 10:03 PM	Seeing as the Silver Flame unfairly slaughtered Shifters, I think the analogy is somewhat fair. And, the Puritains now don't need to be so ... well, Puritan. I mean, they're called Puritans for a reason - I don't think they're warm and fuzzy and huggable towards everyone. ;) But the killing of shifters was a misunderstanding, and it mostly stopped well before the end of the purge. As for the modern Puritans, I think they're closer to the many real-life religious groups whose beliefs seem extreme if you don't ascribe to them. I'm not american, so please forgive me if this is way off-base, but I'd sooner compare the Puritans to the inhabitants of the "Bible Belt." Some are crazed fundamentalists, but most are just a little narrow-minded, and more annoying than dangerous even if you're the object of their fear-based prejudice.
Hellcow 06-09-05, 10:22 PM	To be fair, the Aundairian people pushed for the purge because they were being slaughtered and cursed by bloodthirsty monsters. The approach was imperfect, but those were desperate times; even good lycanthropes were inexplicably turning evil. The Church did try to solve the underlying spiritual problem as well as fight the lycanthropes themselves. To compare the Puritans as a whole to the KKK is quite unfair, and I wouldn't consider a shifter with such views well-informed. At most, any KKK-like deliberate persecution would be the work of a minor faction among the Puritans. Just for my two crowns on the issue: Not only was the Church responding to, as TG says, something that was already claiming innocent lives, but evil lycanthropes played a significant role in the deaths of shifters - framing the shifters to divert the attention of the Church against them and to set two possible allies against each other. So it's NOT as simple as "weres good, church bad" or "church good, weres bad." The church may have wielded the sword - but many of those shifter deaths were ultimately caused by lycanthropes. Add in the human deaths that were being caused by the lycanthropes, and you're dealing with a war as much as anything else - and innocents die in war. Shifters have a right to anger against the Church. But both then and now, there are shifters that have chosen to direct that anger against the evil lycanthropes, and have joined the Church or fight at the side of the Templars. The Puritans may cause difficulty and pain, but they are motivated by the desire to protect their families and children from a threat that could come again, and they feel the same anger as the shifters - fury and resentment for the thousands of innocent Aundairians killed in the lycanthropic uprising. You can compare them to the KKK if you wish - but if so, you're giving the KKK a lot more depth and justification than I would have expected. And for what it's worth, even the Puritans spend most of their time battling things everyone would agree are threats: murderous undead, rampaging aberrations, and so on. They may be harsh and unyielding compared to Jaela and the moderates, and as a result they may be more prone to see evil where it's not - but that doesn't mean that they never do good. Back on topic, I personally don't think any of the characters in City of Towers stand out as much as Drizzt does, which may be good or bad. In Drizzt, you have a complete reversal of tradition - drow are universally evil, and here's the lone hero emerging from this morass of sin and villainy. By comparison, the characters of City of Towers are, largely, regular guys. Sure, Pierce is a warforged archer - but he's not the only warforged archer ever made (though his history will be explored in more depth in the future). Daine may have his own issues with his family, but it's not like they're as evil as the FR drow. Daine & co are people who may end up in remarkable situations, and they have their own issues to deal with - but for better or for worse, I don't think a world of Daines would be quite as bizarre as a world of Drizzts. Now, Lei, on the other hand... Well, I suppose we'll have to see how things turn out. ;)
Euangelion 06-09-05, 11:41 PM	Stereotype, stereotype, hmm..... How about "displaced Cyran refugee?" ;) (Straight from the Department of Redundancy Department!)
Hellcow 06-09-05, 11:49 PM	Stereotype, stereotype, hmm..... How about "displaced Cyran refugee?" ;) (Straight from the Department of Redundancy Department!) Perhaps... but again, there are supposed to be hundreds of these folks. Sharn's got a district of 'em. There's New Cyre. So it's still not the same as having the unique hero who somehow becomes ubiquitous. I guess it is a matter of refining the question: is it "What's going to be Eberron's equivalent of Drizzt?" or "What are the most sterotyped characters in Eberron?"
Raster 06-10-05, 12:06 AM	On the subject of Drizztisms, if you read the worlds of D&D message boards where novel discussion happens, it seems that Burch is the most popular character from Marked for Death, leading one to wonder if he'll go through a Dritzz like role reversal (i.e. sidekick -> main character of several series') but only time will tell. On the off-topic Silver Flame topic, I was under the impression that, even though the majority of Puritains are in Aundair (due to being outside the moderate influence of the Keeper) just being a Silver Flame worshipper in Aundair doesn't make you a Puritain, and just because you live in Thrane doesn't make you a moderate. In other words, it's not so clear cut Aundair = Puritain, Thrane and Breland = moderate, there are moderates and Puritains wherever the Flame is Worshipped, but Aundair has a higher percentage of Puritains than elsewhere. Keith, can you clarify this?
Rechan 06-10-05, 12:07 AM	Not only was the Church responding to, as TG says, something that was already claiming innocent lives, but evil lycanthropes played a significant role in the deaths of shifters - framing the shifters to divert the attention of the Church against them and to set two possible allies against each other. That's right, I forgot about that. I guess I'm just eager to go against the grain of liking the Silver Flame by trying to make siding with the lycanthropes and have legitimacy in being against the Silver Flame "work" by painting the Puritans as scapegoats. Raster: I figured that there are a few large Puritan pockets in Aundair. Several hamlets or towns comprised of them, and a strong presence in a city or two, but not 'we're up to our necks in wackos'.
Hellcow 06-10-05, 12:36 AM	I guess I'm just eager to go against the grain of liking the Silver Flame... Interesting. Personally, I've tended to see more negative statements about the Silver Flame than the other way around; I usually feel that I'm having to point out that they do some good instead of that they are capable of doing evil (both, of course, being true). Shifters who hate the church are perfectly justified in their hatred. While wererat masterminds may have contributed to the cause, it was templars who killed their ancestors, and the point of the lycanthrope manipulation is that it WAS subtle - subtle enough that many shifters know nothing of it today, or believe that it's Church propaganda. But those shifters that fight alongside the templars are justified in hating the lycanthropes for setting their people at odd to begin with, and the puritans who still seek vengeance for the deaths of their ancestors are justified as well. I have no problem understanding why someone could or would hate the Church: but that doesn't make them right and those who revere the Flame wrong. It's simply the case that there's room for many points of view. And I have no doubt that there are some Puritans who are truly despicable and capable of terrible acts of bigotry, bloodshed, and zealotry, and this sort of thing is undoubtedly more common among the Puritans than the moderates - but this doesn't mean that all Puritans behave this way; it's just more likely, based on their beliefs and what their ancestors have suffered. My main point is that the shifter who swears to kill every follower of the Flame is as much a zealot as the Puritan who declares that shifters are the minions of the lycanthropes and must pay. They're both equally right or wrong, depending who you ask. And you should certainly find both in Eberron. As for your question, Raster, you are absolutely correct. Western Aundair has the highest concentration of Puritans, and Breland has the highest level of worldy corruption - priests lured by the gleam of gold. But both these forces can be found anywhere the Flame is worshipped. There are Puritans on Thrane's council of cardinals, and many Keepers of the Flame have come from this background.
talion09 06-10-05, 01:03 AM	On the subject of Drizztisms, if you read the worlds of D&D message boards where novel discussion happens, it seems that Burch is the most popular character from Marked for Death, leading one to wonder if he'll go through a Dritzz like role reversal (i.e. sidekick -> main character of several series') but only time will tell. I don't think Drizzt was meant to be a real sidekick in the first place. Even in the first novel (Icewind Dale), the main hero role was pretty much split evenly between Drizzt and Wulfgar, and Drizzt was the one who got to face off against the two main BBEG's... plus, I seem to recall reading Salvatore writing (in the preface to the collector's edition of the Icewind Dale Trilogy? I'm too lazy to pull it off the shelf and check) about pitching the book to TSR, and how he pulled the good drow character out of thin air when pushed for a less stereotypical character to round out the human barbarian, gruff dwarf fighter and sneaky halfling thief... and that the TSR editors loved the (then) radical concept and encouraged it. Anyways, personally I don't think Burch was "cool" enough to become a leading character in his own right, let alone star in several trilogies.
Euangelion 06-10-05, 01:28 AM	I guess it is a matter of refining the question: is it "What's going to be Eberron's equivalent of Drizzt?" or "What are the most sterotyped characters in Eberron?" Yep, and I was aiming for this part of the original post: Now that Eberron is almost a year old, we are beginning to see patterns and stereotypes in the characters we play and the NPCs we meet... Not that I think Cyran refugees are boring. Each one has their own story to tell, after all... As for the other issue being discussed on this thread: I guess I'm just eager to go against the grain of liking the Silver Flame... and the response: Interesting. Personally, I've tended to see more negative statements about the Silver Flame than the other way around... I completely agree that there's been far more negative comments directed at the CotSF on these boards, meaning that time and time again Keith has had to restate the positive aspects of the Church to balance things out. But of course that doesn't mean that the way rank and file gamers out there generally feel about the CotSF are accurately represented by those who post on these boards. It could be that by and large the CotSF is quite popular in general, even though it's somewhat unpopular on these boards. Finally, I think that if any Eberron character concept has the potential to go from completely fresh, "never thought about playing that kind of character before" to "don't tell me, it's another one of those," it would be a kalashtar soulknife, simply because psionics have always been the unpopular stepsibling of D&D, and the kalashtar, and the kalashtar soulknives in particular, are just plain cool. Now, we just have to meet one in a novel (if we haven't done so already ;) ), and the rest will be history! :D
ussie 06-10-05, 05:26 AM	I personally find the church of the silver flame a fantastic idea. It is perhaps one of the most relevant ideas that eberron has. What Mr.Baker has conveyed in the State of Thrane are two very interesting ideas that deserve merit. 1) the silver flame is a good religion in its tennants, however the people who practice are not always that. That is what many would agree could be status of most religous beliefs, that a religion has many remarkable and admirable traits and is in its root a source of good.... HOWEVER SOME people have taken to interpreting tenants in extremes, with zealotry and in its fundamentals, which has portrayed it in a negative light .finally people commit atrocities in the name of their god to further their own agenda, while doubting the churches actions is consdered blasphemy. The silver flames genocide of lyncanthropes and shifters can be likened to genocides committed during the crusades etc., 2) the self righteousness of Thrane is something we see in the international political scene, that sooner or later everyone must be converted. Perfect examples would be the belief that democracy must be spread or everyone must be converted to a particular faith (i condone nor condemn either but pointing out that in todays world such thoughts exist, something that has been translated well into the Thrane concept, and while some might tolerate deep down for some such a divide is unquestionable). The reason why i think so much negative is said of the CofSF is that it has so many shades of grey ,some might feel that in a make believe world, where there is so many shades of grey it cannot be good, but it, like life isnt so simple, its messy, its glorious, its descpiable and the best of all its SO JUICY and ripe with adventure. The moral ambiguity of the church heirachy is fantastic.
Rotipher 06-10-05, 12:57 PM	Hmmmm.... maybe the shifters' goal ought to be "Convert All CofSF Puritans Into Good-Aligned Lycanthropes And Let THEM See What It Feels Like"! ;-D
Sarlax 06-10-05, 05:43 PM	Interesting. Personally, I've tended to see more negative statements about the Silver Flame than the other way around; I usually feel that I'm having to point out that they do some good instead of that they are capable of doing evil (both, of course, being true). I think this connects to something else I've noticed in Eberron. While one of the elements of the setting is that the tone of the game is refined by blurring traditional alignment distinctions, there's a tendency for the specifics to easily fall into stereotypes. IE, the Blood of Vol is always the bad guy. It's said again and again in the ECS and other products that the true nature of the church is greatly evil, but that common worshippers are just dupes. Where's the gray? Except for Lan Hazal in Sharn, all the players in the Blood seem to be evil. What about Darguun? On my first glance, I thought, "Excellent! Someone finally recognized goblinoid potential." But oh - they're still evil and brutal. They were brutal mountain dwellers who went on raids until they betray Deneith. Their nation is unstable. They enslave. The capital city has that rough/crude architecture. While there's a lot more nuance and depth for goblinoids, such as the Kech Volaar, they're still largely cast in that "disorganized killer" stereotype. Eberron does great job of challenging stereotypes, but I think it could go much further. I hope future products add more depth to the setting instead of relying on stereotypes to guide storylines.
Gurv 06-10-05, 07:34 PM	IE, the Blood of Vol is always the bad guy. It's said again and again in the ECS and other products that the true nature of the church is greatly evil, but that common worshippers are just dupes. Where's the gray? Except for Lan Hazal in Sharn, all the players in the Blood seem to be evil. I've been trying to break that stereotype in particular in my current game. The players have had trouble with the Emerald Claw and are fighting against a vampric Lord-Knight who reports directly to Vol (although they don't know this and think that she is just some even more powerful vampire, hehe). But at the same time, one PC has actually spoken with Lan Hazal and is currently negotiating with him, seeking to trade some pre-Vol necromancy found in Xen'drik for access to his temple's libraries (he wants to be a Blood Magus, of all things, and I told him there was going to be more to it than the prereqs as written). But the point is that I am trying to get my players to stop looking at an organization as a single entity and see that it is made up of individuals, each with their own goals.
Hellcow 06-10-05, 07:52 PM	IE, the Blood of Vol is always the bad guy. It's said again and again in the ECS and other products that the true nature of the church is greatly evil, but that common worshippers are just dupes. Where's the gray? Except for Lan Hazal in Sharn, all the players in the Blood seem to be evil. That's actualy something I personally am trying to fight. In my opinion, the Order of the Emerald Claw is supposed to be evil. In a pulp setting, you need a few people that ARE black and white, and that's where the EC comes in: your players can be fairly confidant that if the EC is involved, it's OK to stop it. Personally, I believe that the description of the Blood of Vol in the Sharn book represents the views of the average follower of the faith. High Priests may be more tied to the EC, but the average village community will be more like the people of Sharn. The religion is about the battle with death, and that's not inherently evil. So in my opinion, the description of the worshippers as "dupes" is flawed; it's simply that they may be used as dupes by manipulative and powerful members of the church (which can happen in any religion). But their view is the common one. What about Darguun? On my first glance, I thought, "Excellent! Someone finally recognized goblinoid potential." But oh - they're still evil and brutal. They were brutal mountain dwellers who went on raids until they betray Deneith. Their nation is unstable. They enslave. The capital city has that rough/crude architecture. While there's a lot more nuance and depth for goblinoids, such as the Kech Volaar, they're still largely cast in that "disorganized killer" stereotype. That's not how I see them, and I hope that it will become clearer in the future. In my opinion, Lhesh Haruuc is a brilliant diplomat and strategist. His capital city has crude architecture because he is establishing a nation from nothing, and appearance is not his concern; even among the Dhakaani, the goblinoids place function over appearance, and typically adapt natural environments to their purposes. So I see this as a question of priorities more than anything else. There are still raiders (notably the Marguul), but I see Haruuc as struggling to overcome that - to bring a greater level of civilization to all of the lowland goblins. As for the Dhakaani, on many levels I see them as being more sophisticated than many other cultures (Shadow Marches, Talenta Plains, possibly even the Mror Holds). They are highly disciplined, possess excellent engineering and architectural skills, and they are starting to take arcane magic more seriously. They have different values than the other humanoid cultures, but they are bloodthirsty savages. So there are still disorganized killers among them, but not among the Dhakaani, and Haruuc is trying to curb that among other people - and humans have their bandits as well. The Ghaaldar are far from a utopia - so it shouldn't be terribly surprising that they do have crime and people who prefer to raid others to make a living, since these things are found throughout human civilization. Darguun is not as civilized as any of the Five Nations, but it's been around for a far shorter time - and much of that was during a time of war. Eberron does great job of challenging stereotypes, but I think it could go much further. I hope future products add more depth to the setting instead of relying on stereotypes to guide storylines. So do I, for the most part. Though as I said, I do think that there is a role for a few recognizable heroes and villains. In Raiders of the Lost Ark, you know the Nazis are bad guys. In Eberron, you know the Emerald Claw are bad guys. But worshippers of the Blood of Vol shouldn't always be villains, and that's where we'll see how things go.
Sucros 06-11-05, 07:07 AM	IMO, stuff like Silver Flame Archers and cyran refugees shouldn't be compared to stuff like Drizzt, as they are more of a successful archetype. Heck, I play a barely controlled, hot blooded Valenar elf who wields a double schimitar. And that's a good thing. I'm enjoying the culture of the world. (admittedly, I'm a druid, which there's no precedent for, but with a strong tradition of rangerdom and a good probability that one of the great ancestors was a druid) </end tangent> A drizztism is when a large population emulates a small minority. I think the eberron example that best fits is excoriate/foundling dragonmarked heirs. The ammount of PCs that play these characters are out of proportion with the ammount of the eberron population who fit this frame. At this point it's actually quite natural. Many players fear being tied down by aliegances to organizations, which is a shame, because I think they're missing out. I think (hope?) that this will ease as more and more material comes out for the dragonmarked houses. And this certainly hasn't reached epidemic levels yet. Another one that's a bit overrepresented is the evil or fanatical follower of the silver flame. While there is very clearly a population of this, I would as a PC find myself to be very wary of any NPC i meet with a silver flame symbol, as the evil/fanatical portion get's around alot.
Kerrara 06-11-05, 01:14 PM	Aberrant Dragonmarks. I think the only thing holding back more is that they are weak and they have no progressions as other dragonmarks do. I think if we ever got a aberrant prestige class or improved aberrant marks that didn't suck we'll suddenly start seeing a LOT more. Not that I can complain, I play an aberrant :embarrass . What can I say, they sounded so cool in Sharn:CoT!
D666 06-11-05, 05:50 PM	One stereotype I expect to see a lot of is the experimental Warforged. Warforged as: bards, druids, monks, psions, wizards, warlocks, anything except a plain vanilla fighter. This even though combat was the whole point of the Warforged project. You might call them stereotypically non-stereotypical Warforged. Gene
DemonLordEnigma 06-11-05, 10:15 PM	Actually, when it comes to the dragonmarks, in one case having a lot of them disenfranchised with the House wouldn't be a stereotype. In this case I'm talking about Cannith, as with the shattering of the House and the destruction of Cyre it makes sense to have hundreds of dragonmarked people scattered throughout Khorvaire, as long as they are from that house. The lack of unified leadership in turn can easily lead to a large number of people abandoning the House. To add on to it, many of them could be horrified by the destruction of Cyre and turned against the House because it refuses to unify and do something. Or, they could be people like Merrix, who actually are on the side of the warforged only decided to leave the House because of what happened in the past. In effect, this leads it to where it is perfectly justified to have all of these d'Canniths running around without a House affiliation to back them. This leads to my theory that a power struggle within the Cannith compound in Cyre led to an attempt to sabotage the creation forge, resulting in the creation of the Mournland. It would fit with the mood of the world. Anyway, I'm perhaps one that is grabbing an old stereotype: I'm playing the typical Drow who is outside of their home. In this case, the Drow isn't with the party willingly: They kidnapped her. Escape attempts have resulted in seventeen deaths, the party being forced to flee Breland because she caused a tower to collapse (remember that Sharn Inquisitive about a tower collapse? DM used it creatively), Thrane sending four groups of people to assassinate the "mysterious demons in disguise", and the Daughters of Sora Kell putting a price on the party's head. All of this just because they wanted to translate one measely book written in Giant, which my character happens to not know a word of.
Cutlass 06-11-05, 10:21 PM	The warforged were in production by all sides involved in the conflict for 30 some odd years. Towards the end of that period as it became better understood what warforged could be capable of theyw ere designed to fill other tasks than simple brute combat. One of the things that makes sorting this out somewhat more difficult is that there hasn't been any firm information on just what the economics of warforged production were. However, given that warforged are a player character race and there are at least two sources of clandestine warforged production one of which is specifically emphasizing experimental models and stretching the envelope as it were then I don't see any real problems with having warforged PCs of any class. The only thing that I would emphasize is that the player come up with a suitable back story describing why that particular warforged was produced to begin with.
MageofMyth 06-12-05, 12:06 PM	I am getting tired of seeing Warforged Druids and Warforged Bards. The Warforged were created for battle, and made out of inanimate material, why are they all Druids, and Bards. I have only seen one played as a fighter since Eberron came out, but have gotten to the point where I want to kill players that come up with the Warforged as druids or bards.
Beleriphon 06-12-05, 01:18 PM	I am getting tired of seeing Warforged Druids and Warforged Bards. The Warforged were created for battle, and made out of inanimate material, why are they all Druids, and Bards. I have only seen one played as a fighter since Eberron came out, but have gotten to the point where I want to kill players that come up with the Warforged as druids or bards. Well druid are intesting but a little odd, bards make sense. They can bolster anybody within hearing of them in battle. I imagine that many warforged units had a drummer (read 1st level bard) to bolster them in battle.
Hellcow 06-12-05, 01:52 PM	One stereotype I expect to see a lot of is the experimental Warforged. Warforged as: bards, druids, monks, psions, wizards, warlocks, anything except a plain vanilla fighter. This even though combat was the whole point of the Warforged project. Sure, but scouts, rangers, sorcerers, bards, barbarians, wizards, and depending on your backstory even monks or rogues all have a place in battle. Clerics do as well, obviously, but I have trouble with the idea of "making" a cleric; like druids, I think that cleric is a path the warforged has to find for themself. But sorcerer or warlock: hey, he's a living wand. In a world where magewrights with wands of fireball assume the role of cannons, the idea of a warforged sorcerer is little different from building a tank. Plain vanilla fighters might form the bulk of the warforged corps, but there's more to combat than just the fighter, and I don't think there's anything strange about warforged being made to fill other combat roles. I am getting tired of seeing Warforged Druids and Warforged Bards. The Warforged were created for battle, and made out of inanimate material, why are they all Druids, and Bards. Interesting. In my games, I've yet to see either of these, actually, though I've seen people talk about warforged druids. On the inanimate material, actually, that's untrue; they are living constructs, so they do have the spark of life within. They include wooden components, and if I was making a druid I might say that his wood was livewood, just for the wackiness of it. But I do think warforged druids would be rare - if you're running into more warforged druids than fighters, that seems like a good candidate for weirdness.
Twiggly the Gnome 06-12-05, 02:46 PM	Interesting. In my games, I've yet to see either of these, actually, though I've seen people talk about warforged druids. On the inanimate material, actually, that's untrue; they are living constructs, so they do have the spark of life within. They include wooden components, and if I was making a druid I might say that his wood was livewood, just for the wackiness of it. That's what I did. One of my NPCs is a Warforged with livewood components named Ironroot. The original livewood tree had a Dryad bound to it. Ironroot became a Greensinger Druid, and his "sister" became an Artificer. :)
Rechan 06-12-05, 07:43 PM	So do I, for the most part. Though as I said, I do think that there is a role for a few recognizable heroes and villains. In Raiders of the Lost Ark, you know the Nazis are bad guys. In Eberron, you know the Emerald Claw are bad guys. But worshippers of the Blood of Vol shouldn't always be villains, and that's where we'll see how things go. Not to derail into OT land again, but while I agree that the setting needs Badguys (ala Nazis in RotLA), I personally make the distinction between the Emerald Claw and the Blood of Vol. I know that sounds bonkers, but to me the Emerald Claw is more the reckless, ruthless organization of minions to the BoVl. And Erandis I see as a very sympathetic individual. I give her a lot of benefit of the doubt. And so I can see the Blood of Vol (at least Erandis herself, a few cohorts and inner-circle minions) as good beliefs/intentions, but at "any means necessary". They're not the cackling maniacal evil of the Emperor, but the Darth Vader "I've lost everything, I'm cold, bitter, lost, and just Going onward with what I know" - that potential of a heart somewhere beneath all the dead armor is there, but it's just frozen in blackness. And thus, the Emerald Claw is just the hand of Erandis that carries out ruthless actions at any means, and they are comprised of more ruthless, ambitious individuals with their own agendas, who want to climb the teir into the Blood of Vol's folds.
Rechan 06-12-05, 07:51 PM	That's what I did. One of my NPCs is a Warforged with livewood components named Ironroot. The original livewood tree had a Dryad bound to it. Ironroot became a Greensinger Druid, and his "sister" became an Artificer. :) That is awesome. I really like 'Dryads bound to' stuff. It's just an interesting idea and it allows for stuff to play with. And I like the duo idea.
ParanoidWarforged 06-13-05, 02:27 PM	I have to admit, i've never come across a good (or even friendly) follower of the Flame; that's a supposedly rare stereotype which seems much overused. In my opinion, the Order of the Emerald Claw is supposed to be evil. Given that i've just introduced a squad of Emerald Claws who remain firm Karrn patriots, and are honestly fighting only for their country's greatness, i'm now mildly embarassed... oh well, at least it's not overused.
Hellcow 06-13-05, 02:52 PM	Given that i've just introduced a squad of Emerald Claws who remain firm Karrn patriots, and are honestly fighting only for their country's greatness, i'm now mildly embarassed... No need to be. I do consider the Emerald Claw to be Karrn superpatriots. I still believe that very few people who are evil consider themselves to be evil, and I do believe that the majority of the soldiers of the Emerald Claw are acting in what they believe to be the best interests of Karrnath. My point is that the Emerald Claw: Is acting against the wishes of King Kaius, who is trying to promote peace. Is always prepared to take violent action, which many members of the Blood of Vol are not. Places the interests of Karrnath - and their view of Karrnath's interests, specifically - above the good of anything else on Khorvaire. Believe that a Khorvaire united under Karrn would be a utopia. Their goal isn't to restore Galifar: it's to create a new empire of Karrnath. Believe that Vol will bring in this empire. Are so devoted to the cause that they will act without questioning their orders - even if those orders benefit Vol with no clear benefit to Karrnath. (By comparison, most followers of the Silver Flame should only consider violence a first resort against supernatural evil, as the ministry is supposed to fight human evil with good works when possible; should seek to perform charitable works when the opportunity presents itself; and in theory, at least, place the greater good above the power of Thrane or the Church itself.) So, are all soldiers of the Emerald Claw bad people? Not at all. But if you are a hero, you can usually rely on them being on the opposite side. Looking to another pulp example, they're stormtroopers. They are the agents of the bad guy, whether they believe it or not - and the odds that Erandis Vol is actually up to something that is good for everyone is very low. Now, even this doesn't mean YOU have to use them this way. But it's the purpose they were designed to serve in the game world. Eberron was inspired by pulp and noir sources, and the EC was intended to be a pulp villain - they are the armies of Ming the Merciless, not the Fat Man from the Maltese Falcon. If you're running a more strongly noir-themed game, you can certainly make them more complex. But when I'm going subtle, I tend to use the Dreaming Dark or the Lords of Dust; when I want some straight-up goons, I turn to the Emerald Claw.
Euangelion 06-13-05, 09:46 PM	Of course, if the novels aren't considered to be canon, it's possible that no character will become the Eberron equivalent of Drizzt. My understanding is that part of his appeal (and Elminster's, etc., etc., etc., etc...) was that they're considered to be official parts of the setting, so a GM is allowed, even encouraged, to drop them in from time to time. But if Daine and all the others are just in Keith's version of Eberron, not the official one, then their crossover appeal is minimized. But this is a good thing. It keeps each GM's version of Eberron their own, and they're under no obligation to add whatever happens in a novel to their game. They can add anything if they want, but they have a ready defense when one of their players insists that this or that has to be in the game just because it was in City of Towers (or in a book from the other series, like the Mark of Death returning or a half-elf manifesting the Mark of Passage!) So, maybe no Drizzts at all. Edit: I hope this doesn't break the "no talking about the novels" thing. If it does, I'll happily erase it.
Fordel 06-14-05, 03:01 AM	No need to be. I do consider the Emerald Claw to be Karrn superpatriots. I still believe that very few people who are evil consider themselves to be evil, and I do believe that the majority of the soldiers of the Emerald Claw are acting in what they believe to be the best interests of Karrnath. A perfect example of this is the movie swordfish. The BadGuys in the movie aren't just simple villians, they honestly believe the ends justify the means. They're willing to sacrifice hundreds, even thousands of lives to ensure the nation as a whole survives with it's freedoms. As to warforged bards, they make perfect sense. Figure you make a troop of WF soldiers, you aren't going to send them out without any kind of support. A Bard is a great support character. Access to magic, has a keen sense of "what's what" has bits of usefull knowledge and can keep morale going. The 'music' part would come after a little time. Most armies throughout history have some kind of music behind them. Even just simple chants or rythems can be enough to keep your soliders on the line instead of running away. Bardic 'Music' doesn't have to be actual music, it just has to be heard. It could be a poem or a speech. An example of what I'm thinking of is in the movie "the 13th warrior" at the final battle scene, the remaining warriors are faceing overwhelming odds, all sure they will soon be dead. Then Buliwyf strugles out to the wall with them, and recites a prayer, then slowly, one by one, the others join into the prayer. As they recite it, there resolve sets in... death or not they will fight on. I don't see a warforged bard as someone prancing around with a lute. I see them as the hardened soldier you have come to reley on. The one where things seem down, you look to them and there they stand, in the face of whats coming and urgeing everyone around them to fight on. When your not fighting, the WF bard is the one telling the stories, keeping spirits up.
Jar Head 06-14-05, 03:34 AM	This isn't a Drizzt-ism really, but a stereotype I make myself when I play certain races. Well, even before Eberron I have always wanted to play a kind-hearted, good-natured goblin character. I have always loved goblins, and always hated that they were always seen as these beastial, primitive, barbaric beasts and raiders. Always unintelligent, crude, murderers. Why can't these ugly beasts be kind or good ever? And I always wanted to do that. Then Eberron came along and made that even easier. I created a very kind-hearted goblin character. He went to war because of his first love, because of his fear of living where he did. His name was Mereph. A human gave him the name, and for story-purpose, it was an Elven word. It meant kind-hearted. Anyway, now if I play goblin characters, I tend to think of them as kind-hearted characters. Or good in nature. I am going to start soon on making a backstory of a hobgoblin paladin. And the goblin Mereph? He had a good friend that was a Bugbear. The Bugbear was a bully for a long time, but Mereph grew on him, and he too began to look out for the weak. Until others thought the Bugbear to be weak, and killed him.
DarkWarriorKarg 06-14-05, 09:06 AM	Eberron Dritzz-ims? How about the people who almost froth at the mouth if you mention playing a drow? Now THERE's an Eberron stereotype I've seen around these parts. :D
demonpunk 06-14-05, 10:02 AM	First of all, this is more of a playing-style stereotype than a specific character stereotype. Second, maybe its just my greedy players. The "freelance" style seems to fit most Eberron parties. By this I mean that the PCs are usually hired by a noble or organization to accomplish some task. Versus regular D&D, where PCs are more commonly motivated by heroic intentions. I know this is a huge generalization, but I'm really just pointing out a trend I see. Anyway, every party I've run in Eberron (including two completely different gaming groups) is full of greedy jerks. When Lady Elaydrin offers a 2nd level party 2000gp each to recover a schema, they demand double. When the riverboat captain in Xen'drik demands extra money to go deep into the jungle, they threaten him to get what they want. When they discover a treasure map to a small island, they steal a boat instead of just paying for passage. Morality has just gone down the drain whenever I start an Eberron game! Has anyone else noticed this in their groups? I'm not saying Eberron is an amoral setting or that it really encourages this type of behavior, but it seems to crop up all the time with me. Or maybe I just play with greedy a-holes.
EscherEnigma 06-14-05, 11:46 AM	since the games I used to play in all the time (typically d20 Star Wars) seemed to end up with the players being the willing stooges of the villains (not even high ranking stooges... we always died too soon...) I'll take greed. As to that comment about the anti-drow sentiments... yeah, I've seen that alot. Still alot of Anti-Forgotten Realms feelings 'round here I guess.
ryanroyce 06-14-05, 05:19 PM	No need to be. I do consider the Emerald Claw to be Karrn superpatriots. I still believe that very few people who are evil consider themselves to be evil, and I do believe that the majority of the soldiers of the Emerald Claw are acting in what they believe to be the best interests of Karrnath. My point is that the Emerald Claw: Is acting against the wishes of King Kaius, who is trying to promote peace. Is always prepared to take violent action, which many members of the Blood of Vol are not. Places the interests of Karrnath - and their view of Karrnath's interests, specifically - above the good of anything else on Khorvaire. Believe that a Khorvaire united under Karrn would be a utopia. Their goal isn't to restore Galifar: it's to create a new empire of Karrnath. Believe that Vol will bring in this empire. Are so devoted to the cause that they will act without questioning their orders - even if those orders benefit Vol with no clear benefit to Karrnath. (By comparison, most followers of the Silver Flame should only consider violence a first resort against supernatural evil, as the ministry is supposed to fight human evil with good works when possible; should seek to perform charitable works when the opportunity presents itself; and in theory, at least, place the greater good above the power of Thrane or the Church itself.) So, are all soldiers of the Emerald Claw bad people? Not at all. But if you are a hero, you can usually rely on them being on the opposite side. Looking to another pulp example, they're stormtroopers. They are the agents of the bad guy, whether they believe it or not - and the odds that Erandis Vol is actually up to something that is good for everyone is very low. Now, even this doesn't mean YOU have to use them this way. But it's the purpose they were designed to serve in the game world. Eberron was inspired by pulp and noir sources, and the EC was intended to be a pulp villain - they are the armies of Ming the Merciless, not the Fat Man from the Maltese Falcon. If you're running a more strongly noir-themed game, you can certainly make them more complex. But when I'm going subtle, I tend to use the Dreaming Dark or the Lords of Dust; when I want some straight-up goons, I turn to the Emerald Claw. Heh. IMO, the Emerald Claw is COBRA, full of Nameless Blueshirts (nameless emeraldshirts) with a few Destros (evil cannith artificer!), Zartans (q'barran changeling!), and Baronesses (phiarlan rogue/assassin!) thrown in for good measure. :D Hmmm... I wonder how many COBRA villains I can throw at my PCs before they get a clue. :plotting: Ryan
Levler 06-14-05, 10:36 PM	The only real Drizzt-isms I see are players trying to rip the Adamantine and Mithril offa dead Warforges and DMs trying to resurect the Mark of Death. Personally, I want to see more stuff about the Lord of Blades. I know people who just think him to be an psychopath hellbent on the destruction the "fleshy races." I see him more as someone who could be quite understanding and reasonable. Sure, he's going to kill you anyways, but he is far from insane. But as for Drizzt-isms, here's one for you that will become QUITE popular soon: A warforged monk dedicated to the mockery, who, because he has no skin, instead flays those he kills and attaches the flesh to himself. What's that? You don't think my idea will catch on? Poo. :(
Euangelion 06-14-05, 10:40 PM	But as for Drizzt-isms, here's one for you that will become QUITE popular soon: A warforged monk dedicated to the mockery, who, because he has no skin, instead flays those he kills and attaches the flesh to himself. What's that? You don't think my idea will catch on? Poo. :( Ya know, junk like that really gets under my skin! :rimshot:
Fordel 06-15-05, 04:31 AM	Ya know, junk like that really gets under my skin! :rimshot: That was painfull :mad:
Raven Dark 06-15-05, 10:46 AM	First of all, this is more of a playing-style stereotype than a specific character stereotype. Second, maybe its just my greedy players. The "freelance" style seems to fit most Eberron parties. By this I mean that the PCs are usually hired by a noble or organization to accomplish some task. Versus regular D&D, where PCs are more commonly motivated by heroic intentions. I know this is a huge generalization, but I'm really just pointing out a trend I see. Anyway, every party I've run in Eberron (including two completely different gaming groups) is full of greedy jerks. When Lady Elaydrin offers a 2nd level party 2000gp each to recover a schema, they demand double. When the riverboat captain in Xen'drik demands extra money to go deep into the jungle, they threaten him to get what they want. When they discover a treasure map to a small island, they steal a boat instead of just paying for passage. Morality has just gone down the drain whenever I start an Eberron game! Has anyone else noticed this in their groups? I'm not saying Eberron is an amoral setting or that it really encourages this type of behavior, but it seems to crop up all the time with me. Or maybe I just play with greedy a-holes. I get that from my players a lot too. When offered more money than their characters had ever seen before (much less held) to go retrieve a relic, they said no, that it wasn't enough. They changed their minds awfully quick when their benefactor began to leave with their money. :) It didn't help the cause in Whispers of the Vampire's Blade when the party rogue tried to pickpocket (unsucessfully) their benefactor! Talk about earning the trust of the King! Even later, the characters would literally strip their defeated enemies naked, throw everything in a wagon they had bought, and sell it later! They took EVERYTHING! They then used the proceeds to buy market permits in every market in Sharn as well as an upscale magic shop in Skyway. So, now they are selling all their mundane treasures in the markets for full price (instead of half) and their magical treasures in Skyway to the rich for full price (instead of half)! What's worse, at least one player has discovered the use of Item Creation feats. He is making items at 40% of the normal price (50% off cause he 's making them and an additional 10% off cause he's joined a wizard's circle) and the group sells them for at full price! They then used all of that money to build themselves (discounted) magical items so now they are all powered up the wazoo! The items crafter hasn't even come close to running out of XP. It's taken them 6 months of down time, but once they start adventuring again, nothing will stop them. Q: So, is Eberron a campaign setting practially designed for greedy players? A: More than any other it is. I second that this "player pattern" should be considered a Drizztim.
EscherEnigma 06-15-05, 11:14 AM	pft. Greedy players can't be a 'drizzitim'. Wasn't it agreed earlier that a 'drizztim' was when something new and original in a book gets snatched and people run with the idea? Greedy players is just amusing. and... to be completly honest, if you let them have 6 months of downtime without interruption, then you LET them get that powerful. Me? I'd be tickled if my players got that creative.
ParanoidWarforged 06-15-05, 12:55 PM	Wasn't it agreed earlier that a 'drizztim' was when something new and original in a book gets snatched and people run with the idea? It doesn't specifically need to be in a book, IMO- any cool idea that's suggested as unusual and then becomes commonplace fits it for me :)
ENHenry 06-15-05, 01:51 PM	Hmmm... I wonder how many COBRA villains I can throw at my PCs before they get a clue. :plotting: Ryan Perhaps you should start calling Vol "Erandis Commander" and have the greenshirts shout "Draaa-CO!" when charging into combat with their CLAW (Combat Light Artillery Weapon) tanks. Also, be sure the PCs never get hit, even in storms of crossbow-fire. :)
Foxboy2000 06-16-05, 08:19 AM	Also, be sure the PCs never get hit, even in storms of crossbow-fire. :) Sadly, that is the case with my party at all times. Low attack rolls + moderately high ACs = A hail of misses.
Jar Head 06-16-05, 11:13 AM	The only real Drizzt-isms I see are players trying to rip the Adamantine and Mithril offa dead Warforges and DMs trying to resurect the Mark of Death. Personally, I want to see more stuff about the Lord of Blades. I know people who just think him to be an psychopath hellbent on the destruction the "fleshy races." I see him more as someone who could be quite understanding and reasonable. Sure, he's going to kill you anyways, but he is far from insane. But as for Drizzt-isms, here's one for you that will become QUITE popular soon: A warforged monk dedicated to the mockery, who, because he has no skin, instead flays those he kills and attaches the flesh to himself. What's that? You don't think my idea will catch on? Poo. :( Actually, he could take that feat that removes all of his armor plating...
Runeblood7 06-16-05, 12:01 PM	The only thing I see in my area a lot recently is the crazy gnome artificer. Imagine the "Evil-Midnight-Bomber-What-Bombs-At-Midnight" kind of character. Does anyone else think that it's wonderfully ironic that A warrior nation like Karnath desires peace, while a peace loving nation like Aundair desires war for military superiority?
Jar Head 06-16-05, 02:22 PM	Does Karrnath really desire peace, or is that what our Kaius-III-Vampire-Impersonator what everyone to think?
Euangelion 06-16-05, 02:37 PM	A lasting peace would give him the opportunity to deal with the internal problems Karrnath has, namely the Emerald Claw/BoV. Then again, perhaps he sincerely feels responsible for Karnnath's role in the start of the war and is trying to make amends. Or maybe, as you suspect, it's a sham to lull everyone into a false sense of security, but that would take awhile since everyone's still on edge. I think that a combination of reasons 1 and 2 makes for the best story.
Aubri 06-16-05, 03:06 PM	Something I notice every now and then is the Mournland-twisted Warlock. Of course, the Mournland is the Mournland, what do you expect? Well, there aren't too many sources of Warlocks available in Eberron, since there's no Dark Gods per se. However, I'd like to run a Warlock from the Shadow Marches, raised in a tradiationally cultist family. :) Perhaps even a half-orc, depending on his combat style and stat rolls. (You can get away with a low-ish Charisma if you avoid save-based invocations.) Heh. It's probably not cliche, but it would be really fun to get in league with your DM and play a gnome who manipulates the entire party without them realizing it--sort of a political spin of the scouting rogue who always seems to have more treasure than everyone else. And who enjoys a good bread-and-water meal... :)
ryanroyce 06-16-05, 03:49 PM	Well, there aren't too many sources of Warlocks available in Eberron, since there's no Dark Gods per se. On the contrary, given the Age of Demons and the experiements the rajahs likely performed on humanoids of every stripe, warlocks can show up just about anywhere, IMO. And there's always an Eldritch Machine that could make them. :evillaugh Ryan
Aubri 06-16-05, 03:56 PM	RyanRoyce, I DID say "gods per se". :) It's my feeling, though, that making pacts with rajahs would count as being a member of the Cults of the Dragon Below. Well, even before Eberron I have always wanted to play a kind-hearted, good-natured goblin character. I have always loved goblins, and always hated that they were always seen as these beastial, primitive, barbaric beasts and raiders. Y'know, I feel the same way about kobolds. Maybe it was Meepo's fault, but I've always felt kobolds get the short end of the stick. They're minding their own business, mining out a mountain, and WHAM! A bunch of adventurers come in, slaughter anyone too slow to get under cover in time, and grab all their stuff! I really loved the recent article in Dragon about Kobold life--I'm going to run them all that way, starting the the NPC party member that my players STILL don't realize is evil (but loyal). :plotting: Goblins.. eh, they's ugly. :) Personally, I want to see more stuff about the Lord of Blades. I know people who just think him to be an psychopath hellbent on the destruction the "fleshy races." I see him more as someone who could be quite understanding and reasonable. Sure, he's going to kill you anyways, but he is far from insane. Oh, you will... did you see this? That's HIM! http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/90002.jpg
Brastan 06-16-05, 05:49 PM	pft. Greedy players can't be a 'drizzitim'. Wasn't it agreed earlier that a 'drizztim' was when something new and original in a book gets snatched and people run with the idea? Greedy players is just amusing. and... to be completly honest, if you let them have 6 months of downtime without interruption, then you LET them get that powerful. Me? I'd be tickled if my players got that creative. Creative should be rewarded, generally by not smiting those wealth chart breaking punks with bolts of lighting as I used to have a habit of doing. Even later, the characters would literally strip their defeated enemies naked, throw everything in a wagon they had bought, and sell it later! They took EVERYTHING! Yes... uh... is this your first time with wide scale battle field looting? It's actually quite common when the players aren't getting a good income from adventures normally. I've seen it as responsive rather than premeditated. Also if you don't like it remember those goods are technically stolen. Please review your S:CoT laws section for suitable punishments. If you need a reason to bring the law down on them use a deeply offended rival merchant who bribes the Guard to create trumped up charges. Murder could easily be one because when you ask were they got the goods from they did technically kill the people who originally owned it. IMO greedy Players is a D&D flaw/basic-element. There have always been greedy players. As for Drizzt-isms I have yet to see any 1 character type/build become super popular. Also when were talking about Drizzt-isms not only do we need to consider the influence of Novels but also the breaking of a stereotype (Evil Drow) with its opposite (a super unkillable Good Drow). Currently I don't see many trends in that way. Also Drizzt came out of earlier editions of D&D were options were limited compared to what can be done now. I feel a Drizzt-ism will occur once there is a Totally evil/villainous race is introduced to the setting and a character is created that rejects that group completely. Drizzt betrayed his people and his beliefs in amazing leap of faith. This is very heroic since he was breaking from evil, but it opened the flood gates for more rebel Drow. This shattered the unity of the Drow as a very Evil enemy race. In Eberron, were nothing is clearly black and white, there isn't an opening for this rampant rebel spirit. Even the off topic discussions of the Emerald Claw and Silver Flame show that both groups have many different facets that the FR Drow that Drizzt came from didn't have. If you want to get pessimistic then one could say that there won't be one Drizzt-ism but many. Were players will merely move between four or five tired stereo type characters, cycling them every time they need a new character. Don't hate the "glass is half-empty" view. ;)
Solarious 06-16-05, 08:45 PM	Well, there aren't too many sources of Warlocks available in Eberron, since there's no Dark Gods per se. Whaaaaaaat? Then what are the Rashashka Rajahs and the Dealkyr Lords (notice the use of the word LORD: these baddies are -much- more powerful than the ones in the ECS)? Chopped Liver? ;) Or perhaps french toast. :P I could never decide which.
Aubri 06-17-05, 02:47 PM	Whaaaaaaat? Then what are the Rashashka Rajahs and the Dealkyr Lords... That's why I said "per se". See my post in reply to RyanRoyce--worshipping rajahs and daelkyr makes you a Cultist of the Dragon Below. As I mentioned, they make a GREAT source of Warlocks. To expand on that, I don't count rajahs as 'dark gods' because they're bound and suppressed. If they were wandering around like Greyhawk's demon lords, then yes, they'd count. The way I see it, though, a warlock bound to a rajah is like a tiny hole in a dam... the rajah may stoop to that if it's the only channel that the rajah's power can take to escape its confinement.
Solarious 06-17-05, 09:36 PM	Well, the Rahjas, at the very least, count as the 'Dark Gods' of Eberron in my book... After all, what do you call something that's around 50HD, Divine Rank 10 monstrosity with numberous special and unique abilities? And probably stuffed with all kinds of character class goodies as well. I mean, come on, this is approaching Forgotten Realms level of power! :P As for the Dealkyr... does destroying worlds (like the one gith used to live on) count as the prerequisite for entering 'Dark God' status? ;)
knightserpent 06-17-05, 11:00 PM	Well, the Rahjas, at the very least, count as the 'Dark Gods' of Eberron in my book... After all, what do you call something that's around 50HD, Divine Rank 10 monstrosity with numberous special and unique abilities? And probably stuffed with all kinds of character class goodies as well. I mean, come on, this is approaching Forgotten Realms level of power! :P As for the Dealkyr... does destroying worlds (like the one gith used to live on) count as the prerequisite for entering 'Dark God' status? ;) Not to mention immune to spells.
Aubri 06-18-05, 01:59 AM	Well, the Rahjas, at the very least, count as the 'Dark Gods' of Eberron in my book... After all, what do you call something that's around 50HD... "Killable"? :mage: In any case, as I said... semantics aside, the Cults in general are the other source of warlocks. They'll either be accessing rajahs or Xoriat, and either way, it works out.
vivid_disorder 06-19-05, 05:58 AM	Changelings are supposed to be these amoral, hedonistic, lazy horders, IIRC (I kind of think of them as like cats would be if they were humanoid: they're pretty and they'll purr while you keep them happy, but they'll send you to the hospital if you move their cushion sort of thing) Now, how many kind-hearted lovable rogue changelings who only cheat and steal and use their powers for the good of the community do you reckon we're going to see in Eberron campaigns?
Orion Polaris 06-19-05, 04:43 PM	Kobolds' are getting absurd in my area. I've had to say no to five Kobold PC's since the Kobold Dragonshard was released. A PC wants to kill off his Half-Orc Druid Dragonshard prospector to make a Kobold Warlock! I love Kobolds, but they don't need a Drizz't!
Solarious 06-20-05, 12:34 AM	"Killable"? :mage: You can kill one, but another emerges from Khyber instantly. You still sure you can handle them? ;) I mean, we're talking beings who held the dragons back with a hand tied behind their collective backs, and we all know what kind of power those flying lizards can bring to bear. :schemes: Now, how many kind-hearted lovable rogue changelings who only cheat and steal and use their powers for the good of the community do you reckon we're going to see in Eberron campaigns? Not enough. :devil: Kobolds' are getting absurd in my area. I've had to say no to five Kobold PC's since the Kobold Dragonshard was released. Well now... isn't this supposed to be a good thing? :D If these people like kobolds so much, why doesn't someone make up a kobold campaign? :smirk:
ryanroyce 06-20-05, 03:58 AM	Recently, KublaCon in SF, and Conquest LA, and Genghis Con and OPUS in Denver (sort of a Mongol theme). I post my con schedule on my website. (http://www.bossythecow.com/) I've never been to Dragon*Con, but I'd like to someday. It'd be awesome to have you there, especially if I got the chance to play in one of your games. :ayyyy!: That said, I know people who know people at D*Con, so I can send the idea up the grapevine and see what blooms. :plotting: Ryan
Bluebrush 06-20-05, 07:08 AM	Morality has just gone down the drain whenever I start an Eberron game! Has anyone else noticed this in their groups? I'm not saying Eberron is an amoral setting or that it really encourages this type of behavior, but it seems to crop up all the time with me. In my group, the players had played through the ECS adventure, recovered Lady Elaydren's Schma... And then they decided to go back on their word and sell it someone else. Amoral AND stupid. And basically a swift kick to the groin of the plot.
Aubri 06-20-05, 02:16 PM	You can kill one, but another emerges from Khyber instantly. You still sure you can handle them? ;) I mean, we're talking beings who held the dragons back with a hand tied behind their collective backs, and we all know what kind of power those flying lizards can bring to bear. :schemes: That's okay, as long as I have enough balors. :D Seriously, though, in my original post I made the specific exception of Cults. There's no Dark Gods because there's no gods in GENERAL. There are certainly Dark Powers, which is why warlocks work at all. Call it semantics if you want. Amoral AND stupid. And basically a swift kick to the groin of the plot. Hah! Well, there's usually another way to pull them back into the plot. There's enough people competing for the schema that someone's bound to attack them, thinking they still have it, or to bring the problem right back to their doorstep ("This thing you sold me! People are trying to kill me for it! Here, take it back and give me my money!") or whatever. After all, if you're not a step ahead of your enemies, they're close enough to put a knife in your back. It kinda depends who they sold it to; another interested group--like the Aurum, with appropriate indirection--could stand in for Cannith for a while. ...hehe... or maybe-- (Shadows of the Last War spoilers) --Lady Elaydren could temporarily trade roles with the Emerald Claw for the first adventure. The giant owl messenger could deliver a job offer to retrieve the next schema for the Claw (via proxies) instead, offering the same job Elaydren does, and the warforged would still make sense attacking them on Cannith's behalf when they meet with the contact (who probably doesn't know he's working for the EC). At that point, you could either replace the Rose Quarry encounters with an equivalent challenge as a Cannith camp doing the same thing, or else insert some RP in the middle to get the PCs back on the right side. If you go for the former option, you'll need to work Garrow in one way or another; if you go for the latter, be sure the Claw can find out that the PCs have betrayed them so they have their dig in place when the PCs arrive at Rose Quarry.
Bluebrush 06-20-05, 02:31 PM	Well, the way it turned out was that Sabre kept hounding them for it, turning up at the Morgrave University Residence hall (Where the Kalashtar wizard was studying. This was Pre-Races of Eberron.) and wound up K.O.ing most of the party. Fortunately the gnome artificer had it, and he wasn't with them at the time. In the end, Lady Elaydren had the foolhardy idiots healed and and they caught up with the gnome and got him to return the schema. Thus we moved on to Shadows. I didn't really have much fun with that group though. ¬_¬ If I could have gone back and thought about it again, I might have gone more the "You want to sell me this thing? Without knowing what it does? I'll give you value strictly less than Lady Elaydren's offer of mucho money."
Von Ether 06-20-05, 02:37 PM	While I am expecting a lot of Artificer/Warforged buddy teams, in the novels I see a lot of "faithful Warforged sidekicks" popping up. That may be on the fast track to "clicheville."
Aubri 06-20-05, 02:49 PM	In the end, Lady Elaydren had the foolhardy idiots healed and and they caught up with the gnome and got him to return the schema. Thus we moved on to Shadows. I didn't really have much fun with that group though. ¬_¬ If I could have gone back and thought about it again, I might have gone more the "You want to sell me this thing? Without knowing what it does? I'll give you value strictly less than Lady Elaydren's offer of mucho money." Oh. Well, that would work too.
Tek 06-20-05, 04:07 PM	While I am expecting a lot of Artificer/Warforged buddy teams, in the novels I see a lot of "faithful Warforged sidekicks" popping up. That may be on the fast track to "clicheville." I've only seen one.
Mandarbgrim 06-20-05, 10:43 PM	An adventure I've been running at cons uses a warforged warlock affected by/drawing power from the Mournland. I had a variation of that with a players character. Warforged Warlock with amnesia discovered on the edge of the Mournlands. I was thinking of making him created by the Lord of Blades using a Daelkyr bound Dragonshard to fuel the Creation Forge..alright..there are probably logical problems with that in Eberron. But it sounded good...until the player got himself killed off by jumping from the falling airship in Whispers of the Vampire's Blade.
Bluebrush 06-20-05, 10:46 PM	But it sounded good...until the player got himself killed off by jumping from the falling airship in Whispers of the Vampire's Blade. "Aaaah! The airship's falling! We're all gonna die!" "Relax man, simple solution. We'll just jump out right before it hits the ground." "Hmm. Good thinking there."
Brastan 06-20-05, 11:00 PM	Amoral AND stupid While I don't think this is exactly a Drizzt-ism it does seem to be a more and more common occurrence. Looks like Eberron needs players to make two things. 1) Heros, real heros who to heroic and "noble" deeds. (These however seem to be in shorter and shorter supply. The Last War must have axed most the heroic folk while they were toddlers) 2) Villains, villainous PCs who whined up kill upstart heroic NPCs. (Thus removing any Drizzts or Elmenstars before they compete with PC Heros.) Statement as a Eberron fan: We don't need large numbers of setting BBEG or NPC Do-gooders. We can make and kill our own Heros an Villains thank you very much. ;) We've got a nice turn over rate too what with the higher level ones falling off of Airships on a regular bases.