Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Egres 05-07-05, 04:04 AM	From the Eberron C.S. Errata: Page 86: Weretouched Master Replace alternate form class feature with following text: Alternate Form (Su): At 5th level, a weretouched master can, as a swift action, assume the animal form related to his lycanthrope heritage (the same animal selected at 1st level). By spending two daily uses of his shifting ability, the weretouched can transform into animal form as if using the polymorph spell on himself, except that the duration is a number of rounds equal to the duration of the weretouched master’s shifting. The weretouched master doesn’t gain any of the normal benefits granted by shifting while this ability is active, and the weretouched master can’t use this ability at the same time that he is shifting. Only the specific animal form indicated for the lycanthrope heritage (see below) can be assumed. A slain weretouched master reverts to his normal humanoid form, although he remains dead. Separated body parts retain their animal form, however. Heritage Animal Form Bear Bear, brown (CR 4) Boar Boar, dire (CR 4) Rat Rat, dire (CR 1/3) Tiger Tiger (CR 4) Wolf Wolf, dire (CR 3) Wolverine Wolverine, dire (CR 4) Add Weretouched III class feature at 5th level: Weretouched III (Ex): At 5th level, a weretouched master gains an additional bonus to one or more ability scores while shifting. These bonuses stack with all other ability score bonuses granted during shifting (such as from weretouched I). Heritage Ability Bonus(es) Bear +4 Str Boar +6 Con Rat +6 Dex Tiger +2 Str, +4 Con Wolf +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con Wolverine +2 Dex, +4 Con Emphasis mine. No more Hybrid form!
Kintara 05-07-05, 04:10 AM	Yay! It may be a nerf, but now I can take Weretouched 5 with out feeling icky and railroaded into one of the "good" forms.
(Psi)SeveredHead 05-07-05, 04:20 AM	Cheers! Now rats aren't totally useless.
Wrathamon 05-07-05, 04:50 AM	makes me want to play one now :)
Pinky's brain 05-07-05, 05:37 AM	As I said on the other thread, I apologize :) Didnt think they had the guts to completely change the capstone ability. I think they went a bit overboard on the alternate form ability though, considering the gain and considering the resource cost it is completely and utterly useless. Given that they pretty much completely forgot about how the lycanthrope's alternate form worked they had pretty much free reign to change the alternate form around, to turn it into something usefull ... the 5th level in a 5 level 3/4 BAB PrC already hurts bigtime for people without fractional BAB/saves (unfortunately most). So something a little better than this wouldnt have been out of place. Personally Id say give them an alternate animal form which can be assumed/dismissed as a standard action (takes no use of shifting). Let them keep their own physical ability scores, and the ability to shift. Because it is an alternate form you dont get animal growth abuse anyway, so it is relatively safe. The rat has the worst alternate form then, but he has the biggest increase to the most usefull single stat now! :)
Zagumus 05-07-05, 06:29 AM	So I am a swiftwing, what do I turn into? a rat?
Pinky's brain 05-07-05, 06:52 AM	Whatever you want ... the shifter traits have bugger all to do with your "lycanthropic" heritage (mechanically it is now so far removed from lycanthropy that the link becomes a bit tenuous).
Pozas 05-07-05, 09:24 AM	So I am a swiftwing, what do I turn into? a rat? I'd say choose a flying animal with a CR of 3 or 4. Dire Bat (MM) or Dire Hawk (MMII) or Dire Eagle (Races of Stone). The big balancing trick was replacing the wolf/wolverine/boar with dire versions thereof, while keeping the bear and tiger in their non-dire versions.
Pinky's brain 05-07-05, 09:29 AM	Nah not really, the balancing trick was to just make the alternate form useless and change the real capstone ability to weretouched3.
Dex The King 05-07-05, 01:04 PM	The weretouched master doesn’t gain any of the normal benefits granted by shifting while this ability is activeHmmmm, this actually makes a great deal of sense. The weretouched master at level 5 now works like a natural lycanthrope. They have their normal humanoid form, a specialized hybrid form (shifting) that is their best for combat, and an animal form can be used well to fight but not as well as the hybrid. Plus, it's much better now that one can be something other than a tiger or bear and still be good.
Pinky's brain 05-07-05, 02:00 PM	They have an animal form which works entirely different from that of lycanthropes. It would have been like a lycanthrope if they could just assume their animal form during shifting, and get all the standard shifting bonuses. So same bonuses, just a different shape ... that is how the lycanthrope works. Wouldnt have been particularely unbalancing, sure the tiger is obviously the best. But animal forms dont make particularely good combat forms.
crazysamaritan 05-07-05, 03:26 PM	I like the new set-up. Haven't teasted it, but it seems to me that it's treating the 'shift' like the hybrid. MUCH more balanced, and rats make excellent snipers now.
stembolt 05-07-05, 03:55 PM	The change I think is fine, but they really should have upped the BAB to +1 as well. I'll have to think about house ruling that.
JBW 05-08-05, 01:59 AM	I'd really like the class if they had +1/level BAB and got rid of the alternate form completely. Weretouched III is good enough for the lone level 5 Ability. Jay
Vharuck 05-08-05, 02:09 AM	I'd really like the class if they had +1/level BAB and got rid of the alternate form completely. Weretouched III is good enough for the lone level 5 Ability. Jay What? The class wasn't meant for building the best shifter, it was meant to represent a shifter who learned the ways of his ancestors, the lycanthropes. Not being able to have an alternate form would be a rip-off.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 05-08-05, 02:27 AM	I'd just like to know what happens when a Weretouched Master gets afflicted with lycanthropy...
JBW 05-08-05, 02:35 AM	What? The class wasn't meant for building the best shifter, it was meant to represent a shifter who learned the ways of his ancestors, the lycanthropes. Not being able to have an alternate form would be a rip-off. What it means to you and what it means to me are obviously two different things. I prefer to see it as being a Shifter that has mastered his innate shifting ability more than a path for a wanna-be lycanthrope, so I favor it being a class that provides for greater shifting benefits without providing a questionable ability that actually degrades your shifting performance. Jay
Pinky's brain 05-08-05, 02:49 AM	What's the use of having an alternate form which you will never ever use? Also the lycanthrope has 2 alternate forms, which give the same benefits. If the animal form gave all the benefits of shifting I might see the connection to lycanthropy, but as it is he is closer to a druid than a lycanthrope with his animal form. As for what it was meant for ... the PrC was meant to let you "quickly learn not just to alter their humanoid forms but to actually take animal forms as their ancestors did". Also "over time they grow to master both animal and hybrid forms of all the once common lycanthropes". Id still like to see the original version of the PrC of which the description speaks, but I have given up hope (my guess is that it had more than 5 levels, and was forced into 5 levels shortly before release). I mean the heritage forms arent even correct anymore for human lycanthropes, those are animals for giant lycanthropes ... and considering the heritage form there is no justification for the bear shifter being stronger than the dire boar/wolf shifters. Having something remotely balanced is already a vast improvement though ... but I think they overnerfed a bit on the 5th level, considering the fact that you loose a point of BAB. Id have gone for +4 str, +2 con +4 str, +2 con +6 dex, +2 con +2 str, +2 dex, +4 con +4 str, +2 con +2 str, +2 dex, +4 con Guess they should just change the weretouchedIII ability to an alternate form ability (otherwise it stacks with stuff like bearwarrior, and that is a bit over the top). Then we truely have something like a lycanthrope again ... with a sorta/kinda hybrid alternate form except he doesnt change size, and an a animal alternate form ... both with the same benefits. As it is now I would most likely never take the 5th level of the WtM in a game without fractional BAB (Id just combine 4 levels with bearwarrior). For various reasons I am of the opinion that melee characters should be a little more optimized than the characters filling other roles in the party.
Capn Crunch 05-08-05, 03:05 AM	The cost of the alternate form, combined with the remarkably limited benefit it might possibly serve is what amazes me about the changes. I like the new Weretouched III, but they should return Alternate form to it's one shift cost and unlimited duration. At the very, very least, it should last as long as two uses of shifting would! The Capn
Pinky's brain 05-08-05, 03:16 AM	If it isnt unlimited duration it should grant you shifting bonuses too ... without gaining a hybrid form and shifting bonuses it is not a combat form, but a utility form (running/camouflage/swimming/etc). A utility form with that short a duration is of no utility.
Brastan 05-08-05, 03:29 AM	I'd just like to know what happens when a Weretouched Master gets afflicted with lycanthropy... Now there's your quick way to an " Ancestral Heritage." This actually forms the bases for a villain I'm working on slowly. As far as I can tell a Shifter could shift while in the hybrid from of a lycanthrope. What the Weretouched Master gives you is security in when you shift as afflicted status is a pain to control. It also messes with your alignment and outlook on life. *Bang*, Ow! And I'm having problems getting into wizards D&D website so I can look at the Errata myself right now. :( I also lent my ECS to a friend for the weekend so don't have that either. From what I'm seeing here its brought more in line with what the Shifter is capable of. Considering that this is not a lycanthrope template and does not deal with the existing creature hit dice it seems to work. Although 2 shifts used is a bit pricey. The hybrid form was junk anyways. What would you rather have 2 levels lost(no hit dice, base attack, or abilities) or 1 level with a moderately useful ability. If you want to become a true Shifter you need the Moonspeaker PrC in RoE to get the Extra Shifter Trait, the Level Swap for Druid that grants the Beast Totem, and the Extra Shifter Trait feat itself. Realistically you could have 3 Shifter forms with out epic levels. The mix of Shifter Traits that exists suggest that no one individual shifter is descended from one type of lycanthrope but the race as a whole is a mix of different ancestries that combine in very odd ways. A Swiftwing shifter could very well have both a Werebat and Wererat heritage. It could also have Werebear in there as well.
Pinky's brain 05-08-05, 03:38 AM	The hybrid form was junk anyways.For the bear and tiger? :) No ... it was not.
darkthought 05-08-05, 04:08 PM	I'd say choose a flying animal with a CR of 3 or 4. Dire Bat (MM) or Dire Hawk (MMII) or Dire Eagle (Races of Stone). The big balancing trick was replacing the wolf/wolverine/boar with dire versions thereof, while keeping the bear and tiger in their non-dire versions. The Dire Hawk is also in Races of the Wild, updated for 3.5 rules. :)
I_hate_goblins 05-08-05, 07:50 PM	I'll admit, I am new to D&D. I've only been playing for about 2 months. After I created my character the first thing I did was map out where I wanted to go with it in the future. I planned on multiclassing Weretouched Master after 5 levels of Barbarian and at least one level of Ranger. Believe it or not, I accomplished that during our last session and surprise, surprise... I found this errata hours before we were set to play again. What the heck??? My first reaction was that perhaps the class was too powerful before, but that this was scaled down to drastically. Or at least that's what I thought initially. Now let me get back to the title of my response: Okay, maybe I'm retarded but... The way the errata is worded, you still do get a full animal and hybrid form when using "Alternate Form" and you also still use the ability modifiers chart that's in the Eberron Guide when using your "Alternate Form". The errata says, replace "the text regarding alternate form" not "replace the text and chart, etc.". The way I interpret this errata is that they have made a clear separation between "Alternate Form" and "Regular Shifting" so you can't stack them both together whereas you could previously. By not having your shifting bonuses available in Alternate form, and having to use 2 shifts to get into Alternate Form, it balances this class out a lot better. It seems to me that your Alternate Form shift lasts as long as the duration of a normal shift. Strictly going by the way they worded this errata, Weretouched III is an additional feature for the class, not a reduction of Alternate Form capabilities in regard to the ability modifiers chart in the campaign setting. It seems to me that Weretouched III only applies to "Regular Shifting" and has nothing to do with your "Alternate Form" capability which is also gained at 5th level. The way I interpret Weretouched III is that you now get a Heritage ability bonus when you "Shift Regularly" and that it stacks with any other bonuses you get while "shifting regularly" in addition to Weretouched I bonuses. Like I said, maybe I'm retarded, but that's the way I see this errata.
Pinky's brain 05-08-05, 09:36 PM	Okay, maybe I'm retarded but... The way the errata is worded, you still do get a full animal and hybrid form when using "Alternate Form" and you also still use the ability modifiers chart that's in the Eberron Guide when using your "Alternate Form". The errata says, replace "the text regarding alternate form" not "replace the text and chart, etc.".The chart does not mention the hybrid form, and the new alternate form ability no longer mentions that your ability scores are not replaced anymore. Given the incredibly harsh costs and the limited duration it would be fair ... but oh well.
Pozas 05-09-05, 09:08 AM	- The Alternate Form lasts as long as a normal shifting. Otherwise, it follows the ruls for Polymorph (quoted below from the SRD): - Upon changing, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). (So you regain 2 hp per character level upon changing, which can be quite a few) - If slain, you revert to its original form, though it remains dead. - The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. (This replaces the ability scores adjustments from the previous WTM version) - It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form. (This includes Improved Grab, Pounce, Disease, Trip, depending on the animal) - It does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. (You do not gain blindsense, blinsight, scent, etc...) Polymorph also works as Alter Self in several ways, so here are the relevant parts (also from the SRD): - Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. (Base attack and saves are adjusted by your new stats) - You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). - You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. (So a WTM barbarian can still rage in alternate form, for instance) - If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. (Unapplicable, since none of the forms allowed are capable of speech) - You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components. (Unless you have Natural Spell feat, you cannot cast spells in Alternate Form. A DM might allow Alternate Form to fulfill the prerequisites for Natural Spell) - You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). (That is, you get the speed, speed modes, natural armor, weapons and size of the new form. A WTM bear or tiger takes up 4 squares in a grid, a tiger has three natural attacks [or five, as it can rake during a pounce]) - When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. (boots, rings, bracers, cloaks, and other pieces of clothing resize to fit their wearer, so they're still active. Armor worn and weapons wielded meld into the form and are useless). So Alternate Form can be useful in certain situations: - Since it is a swift action, a WTM tiger could change to tiger form, charge a foe and pounce it, making FIVE attacks (1 bite, 2 claws and 2 rakes). If he has ranger levels and the foe is a favored enemy, all attacks gain the bonus to damage. If he is a rogue and the foe is flatfooted, all five attacks gain sneak attack damage. - A WTM wolf in Dire Wolf form can attack a foe and attempt a trip as a free action, and the foe can't trip the WTM in return. - A WTM bear can use Improved Grab on an enemy without provoking Attacks of Opportunity. Coupled with the bear's high damage, he can crush an enemy (specially a spellcaster) in a few rounds. - A WTM rat can bite an enemy a few times and then retreat and let Filth Fever take it's toll on the enemy. It also has a climb speed, so the WTM has +8 on climb checks, and can use Dex to climb, instead of Str. Being Small, it can fit through holes that the WTM couldn't fit otherwise.
Pinky's brain 05-09-05, 09:22 AM	The amount of rogue WtMs is going to be slim ... going toe to toe with low AC is also not something you want to do as a rogue, he doesnt have the HP to make himself that vulnerable. Those 5 natural attacks put together only represent a 3.5x strength bonus, the WtM is likely to loose all magical buffs ... most tiger WtMs would be better off just pouncing with a two handed sword (he has pounce from weretouched II). The bear WtM already has improved grab anyway, again loosing the buffs from magical items means this is a bad deal. I agree about the rat, he is the only one with an alternate form which might be usefull rarely ... rather than practically never. Still, I would say overall the new alternate form ability is defacto useless. Shifts are a very valuable resource, and squandering two attempts on something like this is something you would only do if it could help in a BBEG fight (which it wont) or if it is going to save your life (only works for the rat).
Pozas 05-09-05, 09:46 AM	Why would the WtM loose buffs? If those are spells, they still affect him in animal form. If they come from items such as gauntlets of ogre power or belts of giant strength, they are still active. Remember: boots, rings, bracers, cloaks, and other pieces of clothing resize to fit their wearer, so they're still active. So that bear WtM with a belt +4 will, in bear form, have an impressive Str of 31 (!!!). On top of that, he'll be Large, so he'll have an extra +4 on Grapple checks. The WtM could do a full attack with a greatsword while pouncing, but his attacks are at Full/-5/-10/-15. If he changes to animal form, he will not only have a Str of 23 (plus items and spell buffs), but his attacks will be Full/Full(claws)/-5(bite)/Full/Full (rakes). So he will be getting four attacks at his highest BAB.
Pinky's brain 05-09-05, 09:57 AM	Sorry, meant magical item buffs. Most stuff which fits your human form wont fit your animal form, whether all items instantly resize to fit is also not something everyone agrees on. Bears dont have waists as such, how is that belt staying on? The WtM tiger will have +6 to str from shifting in humanoid form anyway ... his weapon will have an enhancement bonus, and his weapon attacks can benefit from haste.
Pozas 05-09-05, 10:42 AM	Everyone's agreement is not needed. Draconomicon, page 24, "Dragons and Magic Items", second column, second paragraph: "Because magic items that must be worn will fit users of any size, a dragon can use any magic item a humanoid character can." If a dragon, a winged quadruped, can wear these items (and the text goes on to specifically mention belts, boots, gloves, gauntlets, etc), why can't a bear (who does have a waist, btw)? As for the WtM tiger, haste can affect his natural attacks as well (in this case, the primary attack is a claw). As for enhancements, any WtM that considers his natural attacks (wether shifting or in animal form) a significant part of his combat power (and any WtM surely thinks this way) will have amulets of mighty fists, potions of greater magic fang and other such items. As for the +6 Str a WtM tiger would get (+2 if he's razorclaw or longtooth, +2 for weretouched I, +2 for weretouched III), he'd have to start with a Str of 17 to match the Str 23 of the tiger. Since we've established that buff items still function, the weapon enhancement has to be significant to match the benefit of having so many natural attacks at full BAB. And here's another thought: pay a spellcaster to have Permanency + Greater Magic Fang cast on you. Presto! Instant enhancement bonuses to natural weapons. Not to mention the fact that while in animal form, you're type is Animal, which means you're a valid target for Animal Growth and all it's combat goodness.
Pinky's brain 05-09-05, 10:59 AM	Okay, got me there ... never read that part of the draconomicon. So you would just loose your armor. A claw isnt a weapon you hold. Permanency cast by others has a good chance of vanishing with the first area dispel you come across. Amulet of mighty fist cost 3 times as much as a weapon of the same bonus (but still a significantly better investment than a permanent greater magic fang). The ability is still called alternate form, and alternate form has a couple of special rules ... one is that you keep your type.
Pozas 05-09-05, 11:11 AM	Then I think the ability should be renamed to avoid confusion. This part of the description clearly states how the ability works: "By spending two daily uses of his shifting ability, the weretouched can transform into animal form as if using the polymorph spell on himself, except that the duration is a number of rounds equal to the duration of the weretouched master’s shifting." So, it works like Polymorph, except for the duration part. In other words, it works like Wild Shape (which also differs from Polymorph only on the duration part). As for the Permanency, it's not vulnerable to dispelling if the shifter himself does the casting (as per the description of the spell). And the Amulet of Mighty Fists only costs that much because it's an amulet, an item that has no affinity for destructive/combat power. Just turn it into Bracers or Gloves of Mighty Fists and the costs lowers dranatically (as per the Rules of the Game articles).
Pinky's brain 05-09-05, 11:15 AM	Creatures in the MM often have text to explain how their particular alternate form ability works (Imp for example, or a vampire). I dont think that is meant as a complete replacement of the alternate form text in the glossary. Permanency is always subject to dispelling, with a self cast permanency he just needs a higher caster level. I dont really buy the bracer slot for amulet of mighty fist, it's not like you are just fighting with your forepaws ... but that is for the DM to decide, if he even allows new magic items (that is a variant rule in and of itself).
I_hate_goblins 05-09-05, 02:26 PM	Ok, I think I understand it all know. You don't get a choice of a hybrid alternate form anymore, but when you choose to use Alternate Form (animal only) you use the ability scores listed in the Monster Manual instead of adding the bonuses on top of your own ability scores as listed on page 87 of the Eberron Campaign setting. For instance, if I chose Bear Lycanthrope heritage at Weretouched I, while in my alternate form I would have STR 27, DEX 13, CON 19 added to my normal ability scores. Correct??? Weretouched III, on the other hand, will sort of serve as a replacement for losing the Hybrid Alternate Form ability because you can still have full use of your armor and you now get a +4 STR modifier that stacks with any other modifiers when you shift normally. For instance, in my case, I am a Beasthide Elite shifter and I am planning on chosing Bear lycanthrope heritage at Weretouched I. By the time I get to 5th level Weretouched Master and gain Weretouched III, each time I shift I would get the following modifiers and benefits stacked (Level 5 Barbarian/Level 2 Ranger/Level 5 Wertouched Master): Shift 3 times a day for 13 rounds each with +6 STR (weretouched I and weretouched III bear heritage), +2 CON (Beasthide), +4 Natural Armor (Beasthide and Beasthide Elite), 1d4 claws as natural weapon +3 (for weretouched I Bear heritage and I'll be a 12th level character), +20ft landspeed (adding Longstride as an extra shifter trait and also taking longstride elite by that time), DR 4/Silver (will have shifter defense and greater shifter defense), Gain 12 HP back after shifting (Healing factor), and Frightful Shifting. (not to mention extra wild empathy and the Alternate Form capability). Now with all of that, why on earth would anyone feel that this prestige class is not worth taking? You'd have to wait forever to get all those shifts a day and shifter feats otherwise. I think those benefits are pretty impressive for a 12th level character. Also, don't forget that you can also rage at the same time to get an even higher STR modifier which also effects the duration of your shift because of the CON modifier. Plus, Alternate Form is still a pretty badarse capability even though you burn 2 shifts to assume it. However, if you're smart, you'll have 3 shifts a day at that point anyway, like my character will. On the other hand, alternate form is definetely not as good an option as Weretouched III in most cases with this revision. In my case, I will have a STR 18, DEX 20, CON 16 with my character by the time I get Alternate Form and Weretouched III. By choosing Alternate Form over just shifting with my Weretouched III features, I'll lose out on my Dexterity, Constitution, and AC (big time) and will only get a slight advantage in Strength in return. I agree, seems hardly worth 2 shifts for my character, but for characters with lower ability scores than I have, maybe that won't be the case. I guess I have more of a problem with how they worded this errata rather than the actual revisions they made. But for the sake of nitpicking, personally, the only thing I would like to see changed is that instead of using only the Monster Manual ability scores in Alternate Form, they revise it to: "use whichever ability score is higher, out of the Animal and your own character score's". That makes more sense to me.
Vharuck 05-09-05, 03:25 PM	I dont really buy the bracer slot for amulet of mighty fist, it's not like you are just fighting with your forepaws ... but that is for the DM to decide, if he even allows new magic items (that is a variant rule in and of itself). Are you talking about that item in RoE? IIRC, it only affects your claw attacks. Checked it, yup.
Pozas 05-09-05, 03:50 PM	I dont really buy the bracer slot for amulet of mighty fist, it's not like you are just fighting with your forepaws ... but that is for the DM to decide, if he even allows new magic items (that is a variant rule in and of itself). It's hard to imagine an Eberron DM not allowing new items, but anyway... As for Amulet vs. Bracers or Gauntlets of Mighty Fists, here's the SRD on item affinities: "Amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, scarab -> Protection, discernment" (which is cleraly not the case of an amulet of mighty fists) "Bracers -> Combat" (so hypotethical bracers of mighty fists would fit) "Gauntlets -> Destructive power" (ditto) "Wondrous items that don’t match the affinity for a particular body slot should cost 50% more than wondrous items that match the affinity." And here's the Rules of the Game article that spells out the possibilities of Gauntlets of Mighty Fists: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050111a As per the article, +1 Gauntlets of Mighty Fists should cost about 4000 gp.
Dragom 05-09-05, 05:24 PM	Well at last the rat is showing his own. The alternate form is far from useless. It's just as impressive as wildshape. You still end up with a crappy AC but you do get to deal a lot of damage and benefit from the skills and mobility of the animal form. A wolf with a level of Barbarian has a speed of 50ft and can still rage. Standing tall and swinging with a great-axe is the only thing the new ability does worse then the old one.
I_hate_goblins 05-09-05, 07:21 PM	As I indicated earlier in the thread, I am an inexperienced D&D player. I have only been playing 2 months and this is the first time our DM has used Eberron as a setting. I could just ask him the following question, but I want to field it hear first. If you check out my earlier post, it shows the capabilities my character will have when shifting regularly as a level 5 barbarian/level 2 ranger/level 5 weretouched master. My character will have the following base ability scores at that point: 18 STR, 20 DEX, 16 CON, 14 INT, 15 WIS, 11 CHA. Don't worry, I now know my scores are ridiculous but I rolled them fair and square. Anyway, here is my question: Could someone please provide some specific examples of when it may be beneficial to use the revised alternate form instead of just shifting regularly in a combat situation? I'm having a hard time understanding when I might want to do that with my character rather than shift regularly. Thanks to whoever offers their input?
Tap Tap 05-09-05, 08:32 PM	Well at last the rat is showing his own. The alternate form is far from useless. It's just as impressive as wildshape. You still end up with a crappy AC but you do get to deal a lot of damage and benefit from the skills and mobility of the animal form. A wolf with a level of Barbarian has a speed of 50ft and can still rage. Standing tall and swinging with a great-axe is the only thing the new ability does worse then the old one. A wolf with a level of Barbarian would have a speed of 60ft. 50ft normal + 10ft Barbarian. Wouldn't it?
Pinky's brain 05-09-05, 11:09 PM	A wolf would also only have his bite.
The White Sorcerer 05-10-05, 01:29 AM	Shift 3 times a day for 13 rounds each with +6 STR (weretouched I and weretouched III bear heritage), +2 CON (Beasthide), You only get the ability bonus from your first shifter trait.
Gez 05-10-05, 04:44 AM	You only get the ability bonus from your first shifter trait. Beasthide is his first shifter trait. His secondary trait is longstride, and I have not seen him adding to his Dex from Longstride, so I suppose he knew that rule. :)
The White Sorcerer 05-10-05, 06:01 AM	Beasthide is his first shifter trait. His secondary trait is longstride, and I have not seen him adding to his Dex from Longstride, so I suppose he knew that rule. :) :embarrass D'oh!
Dragom 05-10-05, 12:35 PM	A wolf with a level of Barbarian would have a speed of 60ft. 50ft normal + 10ft Barbarian. Wouldn't it? Eep, Your right, I thought I had the wolf stats properly memorized...
Dragom 05-10-05, 01:01 PM	A wolf would also only have his bite. A bite (1d6+1) or (1d8+4) (Improved natural attack (bite) and rage) and a trip (+1 or +3 {Rage} or +5 {improved trip} or +7 {improved trip and rage}) is more then most creatures get on a charge. And 240ft is a longer charge then most characters can manage. And unlike a Druid you can end the alternate form swiftly. And finally you can play 'which one is the real me?' and 'which wolf is the real threat?' games with that pansy ranger's animal companion wolf that you haven't been able to find a use for before. So you can go to alternate form, do a confusing dance with your Lupine compaion for a round and then charge + bite and trip and change into normal form to make your attack of opportunity with a normal weapon and meet the foes standard action attack with your armor. Then trade a Full-round attack for a Full-round attack and if you don't like the trade you can do a full retreat. Mind if you where really good at trips you might have stayed in wolf form and just relied on tripping him everytime he gets up. If you had combat reflexes, you could bite and trip him twice on his round (Full ATB on each), and bite him once on your round (Full ATB again) for good measure. All against a prone target (+4 to hit). But this only work's on medium bipeds with STR of less then 26 and small creatures of all sorts.
Pozas 05-10-05, 06:44 PM	Just a quick note, Dragom: The Weretouched Master wolf form is a Dire Wolf! So we're talking at least 1d8 bite (or 2d6 with Improved Nat Attack) and a Str of 25 (Trip at +8 for Str and +4 for size, for a total of +12, before raging).
Dragom 05-10-05, 07:38 PM	Oh... It would be better to do a "I prepare an action to bite and trip him when he gets up." Just incase you missed a bite or failed on one of your trips.
Magagumo 05-10-05, 11:45 PM	Note that you can't trip them while standing up from prone- they're either prone (during the AoO) or not (after it), but you can't establish a trip lock. Several dscussions including the FAQ cover this issue if you need further proof :).
Pinky's brain 05-11-05, 02:35 AM	Having only the attack+trip on the charge is not the problem, the round after that is ... getting only a single attack when you are in full attack range is a bad idea (you dont have reach BTW). You could change back, but then you just invested 2 shifts in a very ineffecient way.
Pozas 05-11-05, 07:24 AM	Well, you can still Grapple the prone foe, and use grapple checks to inflict bite damage (tiny stuff like 2d6+8, if you have Imp Nat Attack).