Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stone_dog 07-04-05, 02:24 AM	Yup. Good solid stuff here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebee/20050704a) The bit at the end about aberrant marks really leapt out at me as being an interesting house rule!
MarkB 07-04-05, 07:44 AM	Small typo: Under the Neogi section, where it says "Now, however, the neogi can appear anywhere in northwestern Khorvaire", I presume that should be northeastern. That aside, an excellent article.
Elentilion 07-04-05, 10:35 AM	Until recently, the neogi were only a legend. Perhaps they had slumbered for a time and were finally awakened when dwarf explorers ventured too far into the depths of the Ironroot Mountains.(...) This part really looks like the awakening of Durin's Bane, the Balrog of Moria in LotR:FotR, by the Dwarves who were mining the depths of the Misty Mountains for mithril, as do the "legend" part, since just a few loremasters and an ocasional Legolas knew about Balrogs. Being the resemblance intentional or not, I really liked this bit. :)
Jayj 07-04-05, 10:51 AM	I'm really not certain why the concept of neogi starships needs to be scrapped. If the daelkyr really did destroy at least one other inhabited world, that must mean there are other worlds to travel from. The daelkyr did it, why not the neogi? The 'impossibly enlarged universe' concept does lend itself to the Lovecraftian sense of hugeness and insignificance that is key to warping the paradigms of hapless PCs. ('If Eberron really isn't the center of the universe... what -is-? If the evil daelkyr, savage gith, and greedy neogi came from the stars, what Else is out there?') That being said, I wouldn't give them recognizable, corporeal 'ships'. That would just make it Star Trek. You never see a Colour out of Space or a Star-Spawn of Cthulhu using a ship (although maybe the Mi-Go have ships, I forget). Living creatures (like large versions of byakhee) as transport, perhaps, or some sort of exotic 'bubble'-style magic ship would work well. - Jayj
LewisLlynn 07-04-05, 11:41 AM	You know what I like best about this article (and hopefully about those to come)? I don't have Lords of Madness—yet this article still proved useful. I think is going to be a really good series, because even those of us without the book Keith's talking about can enjoy and utilize the articles. BtW, I really like the neogi-dwarf link, as I'm always looking for new ways to link abberations to their origins! :D
Kryptonian Scion 07-04-05, 12:06 PM	Finally, we get a decent Hellcow Eberron article on a weekly basis again. A friend and I were lamenting the loss of weekly Dragonshards just the other day, but Eberron Expanded will heal those wounds really well.
stone_dog 07-04-05, 12:31 PM	This part really looks like the awakening of Durin's Bane, the Balrog of Moria in LotR:FotR, by the Dwarves who were mining the depths of the Misty Mountains for mithril, as do the "legend" part, since just a few loremasters and an ocasional Legolas knew about Balrogs. Being the resemblance intentional or not, I really liked this bit. :)It just makes me want to have a big ol fashioned boxed set of ancient Mror Hold goodness. Ah well. A man can dream. I'm really not certain why the concept of neogi starships needs to be scrapped. Lets see, because; the neogi are natives of Eberron and don't COME from any other planet, WotC probably doesn't want to open up the whole "spelljammer" can of worms, off world Eberron focuses on other planes not other planets and since things that show up in online supplements are official one paragraph in an Eberron Expanded that changes the nature of the world can interfere dramatically with planned supplements and sourcebooks. That being said, neogi obviously brew space mead and are developing "Star Spinners" to make webs that reach from Eberron to Siberys. Once they are UP there they harness the beasts that live in the great ring of crystals to set up colonies on the various moons. Maybe during one of these expiditions accidently makes its way into the Azure Sky, infesting Syrania with neogi. Eventually, the angels will find out where these evil things came from and come to Eberron to clean house.
mistakeagian 07-04-05, 12:39 PM	...since things that show up in online supplements are official one paragraph in an Eberron Expanded that changes the nature of the world can interfere dramatically with planned supplements and sourcebooks. Actually, in the request thread, Hellcow mentioned that Eberron Expanded is in no way official and is simply how he would use the books in his home campaign. He said he does not clear the articles for Expanded with the design team.
greatfrito 07-04-05, 12:41 PM	Yes, very good article. I hope they're all this interesting and long. Honestly, don't have Lords of Madness, but this made me consider it. 'Specially the thing about Aberrant Marks was awesome (though I still tie them to the Warlock class first... maybe now Abberations second).
stone_dog 07-04-05, 12:58 PM	Actually, in the request thread, Hellcow mentioned that Eberron Expanded is in no way official and is simply how he would use the books in his home campaign. He said he does not clear the articles for Expanded with the design team.Interesting and leads to good hopes for the future of Eberron web articles. In such a case simply replace the bit you quoted with "Keith doesn't seem into that sort of thing" and the mention of WotC with Hellcow. :D
Raziel_Brokodar 07-04-05, 01:16 PM	Good article Keith! :) Are you doing the Expanded Psionics Handbook next?
Jayj 07-04-05, 03:31 PM	Lets see, because; the neogi are natives of Eberron and don't COME from any other planet, WotC probably doesn't want to open up the whole "spelljammer" can of worms, off world Eberron focuses on other planes not other planets and since things that show up in online supplements are official one paragraph in an Eberron Expanded that changes the nature of the world can interfere dramatically with planned supplements and sourcebooks. A perfectly legitimate point, and if this were officially endorsed material, I would be forced to accede. However, as it is, the article is mainly Hellcow's opinion, and I'm afraid this is one place where Eberron is unnecessarily limited, and I disagree with him on the specifics of aberration implementation. That being said, neogi obviously brew space mead and are developing "Star Spinners" to make webs that reach from Eberron to Siberys. Once they are UP there they harness the beasts that live in the great ring of crystals to set up colonies on the various moons. Maybe during one of these expiditions accidently makes its way into the Azure Sky, infesting Syrania with neogi. Eventually, the angels will find out where these evil things came from and come to Eberron to clean house. The main point, as I see it, is that Lords of Madness was designed and geared toward a Lovecraftian sensibility, and part of that sensibility is the sense that the PC/protagonist is vanishingly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. As I noted in the Cry of Xoriat thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5075384&postcount=52), the odds are stacked against him to the point where he must realise that victory can never be permanent and the destruction of Eberron is inevitable. We already know the daelkyr, the mind flayers, and probably the gith originated from some other world or worlds. A two-world universe, especially when one doesn't even hear about the other world aside from speculation, is too cramped for the mind-breaking 'Huge Universe' feel that is one of the most defining traits of Lovecraftian flavor. One doesn't have to be making trips to Fomalhaut or Aldebran every third session to acquire the feel; one must merely acknowledge and reveal to the PCs that there are other worlds, and the inhabitants at the very least outnumber you and don't care about you, and at the worst desire to enslave or destroy you just for giggles. So, if I were running a game with Lovecraftian elements, I'd keep the neogi and even the tsochar intact as-is: star-faring races of malicious intent and frighteningly exotic magical power who are unrelated to the daelkyr just as the mi-go and yithians are unrelated to the pantheon of Azathoth. Though the daelkyr are the most serious threat to survival faced by Eberron, they are not the only thing from outside the planet and its insular little pocket of orbiting planes. The dragons, the fiends, the daelkyr, and the cults of the Dragon Below realise that Eberron is not isolated and solitary. Everyone else staunchly believes in a self-centered little universe of just Eberron; to be exposed to the truth is to risk madness. As bad the daelkyr are... they're not even close to the worst thing Out There. - Jayj
Hellcow 07-04-05, 05:22 PM	Small typo: Under the Neogi section, where it says "Now, however, the neogi can appear anywhere in northwestern Khorvaire", I presume that should be northeastern. You are correct. Also on the Neogi, I noted that their ships shouldn't travel between worlds... in retrospect, if I use them I'll probably just drop the ships entirely. I'd have them attack from hidden tunnels to Khyber... with some sort of subterranean "ships" that allow them to travel swiftly between their settlements and targets.
Hellcow 07-04-05, 05:31 PM	I'm really not certain why the concept of neogi starships needs to be scrapped. If the daelkyr really did destroy at least one other inhabited world, that must mean there are other worlds to travel from. The daelkyr did it, why not the neogi? They don't HAVE to be scrapped; *I* would scrap them. My reasons: The daelkyr don't travel through physical space. They invade worlds by moving through dimensions. The other worlds that they have attacked may not even occupy the same physical space as Eberron; they may be reflections of Eberron itself. In my story, the neogi are born from a subterranean culture, and have only recently emerged from hiding. The idea that they use airships - let alone spaceships - doesn't seem to make much sense with that story. But, of course, the whole point of Eberron Expanded is that it's NOT cannon, since the books aren't core to begin with. It's what *I'd* do - that's all.
Hellcow 07-04-05, 05:34 PM	He said he does not clear the articles for Expanded with the design team. The design team does at least LOOK at them, but they don't require the same approval process, because they aren't official.
Hellcow 07-04-05, 05:35 PM	Are you doing the Expanded Psionics Handbook next? Nope. Maybe soon.
Edymnion 07-04-05, 05:43 PM	Nope. Maybe soon.:( I've been wanting to see your take on Half-Giants and Elans for a while now. I mean, I know where I put them (half-giants on the islands north of Xen'Drik, descendants of giants that defected to the Quori's side, and the Elans as living prisons for the Quori used by the Kalashtar, since killing a Quori is virtually useless), but I'd still like to see your take on things. Especially the possibility of using psionic classes and powers as non-psionic flavor (I'm considering having my WF Paladin take a few levels in Psychic Warrior for some of the flavorful battle moves, like Stomp).
Hellcow 07-04-05, 05:59 PM	main point, as I see it, is that Lords of Madness was designed and geared toward a Lovecraftian sensibility, and part of that sensibility is the sense that the PC/protagonist is vanishingly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Certainly, but a few more points. Eberron has Lovecraftian elements, but it is heavily inspired by Pulp stories - and in pulp, the heroes DO matter, even when they are up against insurmountable odds. Second, I feel that the addition of space ships detracts from the mystery of the world as opposed to adding to it. As it stands, the moons are places of mystery. We know that the Gith come from elsewhere, but because the daelkyr travel through holes in space and time we don't know if the world of the gith is elsewhere in the same universe as Eberron, a reflection of Ebeerron, or something else entirely. With reliable ships, we suddenly have to ask if the Neogi have moonbases and what happens when my PCs grab a Neogi ship and want to head out into the darkness. Space is no longer a mystery. Third, I feel that the planes are at least as interesting and overwhelming as planets. I think it's more mysterious to have villains crawl out of dreams or come from madness itself than to just cruise in from Pluto. With Eberron, we have the ability to say that the physical universe may BE nothing like our own - I see no reason to drop that now. Space is an utter mystery, which does make the events on Eberron all the more significant. We already know the daelkyr, the mind flayers, and probably the gith originated from some other world or worlds. Well, the gith and mind flayers are still linked. If that conjecture is true, it's because the mind flayers were born from the Gith. And if one assumes that, it's NOT a "two-world universe". The daelkyr entry states that they consider the destruction of worlds to be a form of art; aside from the use of the term "worlds", my intended implication was that this meant it was an art than had honed for eons. Xoriat has been around at least as long as Eberron, and it took them hundreds of thousands of years to get here. one must merely acknowledge and reveal to the PCs that there are other worlds, and the inhabitants at the very least outnumber you and don't care about you, and at the worst desire to enslave or destroy you just for giggles. Which I feel is the role of the planes. Each plane is itself FAR larger than Eberron, if not infinite in scope. If the inhabitants don't outnumber us, they are at least far more powerful than we are and far more alien - it's not just some other planet where life may have developed just as it has here. And yes, to the degree that the people of the outer planes do care about us, it is to destroy or enslave us, as we have seen. The daelkyr destroyed an empire that last thousands of years, and the best that has been done was to put them on hold, which seems to be something they don't even care about. The other thing about the planes is that they are RIGHT NEXT TO YOU. Who knows when a horror could slip through the folds of space to strike you? Any day the Inspired may complete their work and bring nightmares upon us. Spaceships can only hold so many people, they may need fuel, they can be stolen by others - lacks the cosmic horror, in my view. So, if I were running a game with Lovecraftian elements, I'd keep the neogi and even the tsochar intact as-is: star-faring races of malicious intent and frighteningly exotic magical power who are unrelated to the daelkyr just as the mi-go and yithians are unrelated to the pantheon of Azathoth. Sort of like how I've said the aboleths are tied to Khyber instead of Xoriat, and predate the daelkyr invasion by hundreds of thousands of years? :) Plus, my point on the neogi is that regardless of the role the daelkyr may have played in their origins, they AREN'T servitors of the daelkyr - at least to their knowledge. So they are an independent servitor race. Though the daelkyr are the most serious threat to survival faced by Eberron... Actually, I don't think they are. Even the powerful daelkyr lords are no match for one of the rakshasa overlords from the first age (the forces I equate to the Elder Evils, or as close as Eberron has to living gods). And let's not forget the Dream Dark, which is the spirit of an entire plane. its insular little pocket of orbiting planes. I think we have different views of the significance of planes. In my opinion, planes are not smaller than Eberron. They may be said to "orbit" because they go through complex patterns by which they intersect with Eberron, but that doesn't stop them from being far vaster than Eberron itself. It is through Xoriat that the daelkyr travel, and Xoriat can touch the mind of any creature that can know madness on the physical plane. If there are other planets in the same universe as Eberron, Xoriat touches them all. And as shown by the Gith, those planets are there. But do they occupy the same space - or dopeople not yet understand the nature of the universe itself? I certainly respect your opinion. I consider Lovecraft to be a powerful influence on Eberron, certainly the main inspiration for the Cults of the Dragon Below and the rajahs. But I we obviously have different opinions as to how to implement that mood. Personally, I find lords of madness who crawl out of the hidden spaces in our minds - and who take the things we love and transform them into monsters - far more disturbing than aliens who show up in a spaceship. But you are obviously welcome to do as you will in your iteration of Eberron!
makeshiftwings 07-04-05, 07:50 PM	I thought it was good, but I didn't like the beholder and mind flayer sections. I just don't like the idea of my two favorite monsters being nothing but servants and living artillery for a bunch of Cthulhu-wannabes ;). I prefer the original idea of the mind flayers thinking they are the true master race, destined to inherit the universe, concerned with their own inscrutable plans; not willing slaves to an army out to destroy everything that moves. I think in my version, I would still have the Illithid and Beholders come from Xoriat, but they wouldn't be servants or members of the Daelkyr army. The Daelkyr would just be one of many "factions" in Xoriat, and for some reason the Daelkyr just have more of an interest in Eberron than anyone else in Xoriat. But other Xoriat factions (the beholders, the mind flayers, etc.) still make their way into Eberron for their own reasons from time to time. I'd prefer to have the mind flayers have power on par with the Daelkyr; say, the network of elder brains and maybe some powerful rajah-like mind flayer demigods, but have their own agenda that doesn't involve just tearing Eberron apart. Perhaps they'd even be working against some of the Daelkyr's plans. Their power to hold off the Daelkyr and pursue their own agenda wouldn't even necessarily need to be through physical might; maybe Xoriat has some bizarre inherent code of law that stops the chaotic races from completely tearing eachother apart, forcing them to focus their aggression on other planes of existence instead of eachother.
stone_dog 07-04-05, 09:16 PM	I just don't like the idea of my two favorite monsters being nothing but servants and living artillery for a bunch of Cthulhu-wannabes ;). To be fair, the Elder Evils are the Cthulu parallels. The godlike overlords that are served by the Lords of Dust and probably have divine rank. The daelkyr are scions of the plane of madness and are pretty much inscrutable, but they are killable creatures. Masterminds and fiends that make for foes of epic heroes yes, but nothing compared to the ancient evils of the Age of Demons. Very powerful, but in Mythos terms merely intensely powerful independant races. Not close to matching Elder Gods, Great Old Ones or Outer Gods. The great thing about inscrutable agents of madness is that no hero or sage in all of Eberron will be able to determine if your version or Kieth's is the correct one. Anything information gleaned from or about these terrible creatures is probably tainted by their alien natures. Even if a daelkyr, illithid and beholder were all in the same room and told you the same thing, they are relating to you from an entirely different way of thinking and what they think they are telling you might not be what you are hearing.
Jayj 07-04-05, 09:48 PM	Eberron has Lovecraftian elements, but it is heavily inspired by Pulp stories - and in pulp, the heroes DO matter, even when they are up against insurmountable odds. Quite true, and it's quite possible to have a fun campaign where heroes are strongly effective against Lovecraftian elements. Things change a bit in a horror campaign, but that's not quite the point of the article as I sensed it. Point acceded. :) Sort of like how I've said the aboleths are tied to Khyber instead of Xoriat, and predate the daelkyr invasion by hundreds of thousands of years? :) Right, I should be up front and say that I heartily approve of your implementation of aboleths. The flavor is spot-on. Actually, I don't think they are. Even the powerful daelkyr lords are no match for one of the rakshasa overlords from the first age (the forces I equate to the Elder Evils, or as close as Eberron has to living gods). And let's not forget the Dream Dark, which is the spirit of an entire plane. A good point, and IMC, the daelkyr are simply the servants of one or more of the Progenitors, which are equivalent to Elder Gods/Elder Evils/Overlords (Khyber, Siberys, the Dreamking Dark, et. al. being among the most powerful thereof).The rajahs are simply Progenitors who created some of the fiends and got stuck here R'Lyeh-style. Any given daelkyr may be able to smack a Lord of Dust around, but they're still about at the same place on the food chain. Second, I feel that the addition of space ships detracts from the mystery of the world as opposed to adding to it. .... The other thing about the planes is that they are RIGHT NEXT TO YOU. Who knows when a horror could slip through the folds of space to strike you? ... Spaceships can only hold so many people, they may need fuel, they can be stolen by others - lacks the cosmic horror, in my view. ... I think we have different views of the significance of planes. In my opinion, planes are not smaller than Eberron. They may be said to "orbit" because they go through complex patterns by which they intersect with Eberron, but that doesn't stop them from being far vaster than Eberron itself. I think that's the crux of the disagreement. I think we can both agree that the standard 'planar orrery' view of Eberron & the planes is an incomplete and misleadingly planet-centric view of the cosmology, but I'd taken a slightly different tack in my campaign. Spoiler tag so that those not interested with my homebrew alterations may skip it. I had expanded the material plane to standard planet-star-galaxy proportions, and the Astral Plane to match. The other planes were local to Eberron, but the metaphysics got a bit 7th-dimensional. Khyber (who is by no means dragonlike) was trapped by Eberron & Siberys in a gargantuan rope trick-like effect, a dimensional pocket, where the walls and mouth of the pocket were composed of the planes and the 'fabric' of space of the planet itself. Like nesting balloons, they provided the walls of his cage. They resonated with 7th-dimensional waves, and coterminous and remote phases were where the warps and woofs of the planar fabric waves touched or were far from each other. Each plane was 'tied off' by anchoring them metaphysically to one of the moons. Each plane also resembles the geography of Eberron, i.e. Lake Galifar is still there in Fernia, it's just a lake of lava. If/when Khyber breaks free, Eberron the planet will still be there, but the planes and probably the magic of Eberron would be destroyed or severely shattered, like busting the balloons (which is what happened to Dal Quor). Not incidentally, there's a cheesed-off Khyber in space next to the planet, wanting a morning stretch by reaving all life there. In summary, all planes except the Astral were a local phenomena, the -real- product of Eberron's sacrifice rather than the planet's surface itself. Thinking like that had me favoring a view of the planes that was a bit more finite than your vision. I suppose the main reason I did that was because I wanted things such as fae, devils, elementals, and such to be a 'native' part of Eberron whereas aberrations were very distinctly Other. Most D&D players and most sufficiently-experienced adventuring PCs wouldn't blink twice at running into a pixie, ice elemental, or bebilisk, so a lot of the mystery to the 'infinite planes' concept is diminished, in my eyes, even if some of the planes are home to aberrations and nightmares. The Lovecraftian elements, in my view, need homes that are sufficiently distinctive from planar denizens in order to grant that sense of alien mystery. Hence, back to the stars. I like the stars because they are, above all, distant and alien, but also visible. They're something you can point to and say, "Somewhere, at one of those points of light, the tsochar make their cold, barren home" or "The constellations are aligning. We will have a Visitor." The planar orrery can do that, but it's indirect compared to being able to watch the stars swivel above and know fear. You do, however, make an EXCELLENT point about starships. The very concept of corporeal starships does take away from the mystery of magic and space, turning it into Star Trek or War of the Worlds. Lovecraft maintained the mystery of space by using risky magical transport like being clutched in a byakhee's grip or direct teleportation via Yog Sothoth's grace, and by rarely showing when he could just tell and show hinting glimpses, instead. In retrospect, I'll probably take the starships away from the neogi and just have them use Unearthed Arcana-style incantations to simulate Astral Caravan or somesuch. I will also remember well the potential in the concept that there are horrors right next to you, just out of sight past the fabric of space. No matter that the daelkyr may have come from distant stars where madness reigns... right now, their servants are -here-, and they can be anywhere and nowhere. Personally, I find lords of madness who crawl out of the hidden spaces in our minds - and who take the things we love and transform them into monsters - far more disturbing than aliens who show up in a spaceship. But you are obviously welcome to do as you will in your iteration of Eberron! Thanks, as always, for clarifying things and giving your insight. I've certainly changed my mind about the spaceship thing, and I've got some pondering to do about whether there's room for infinite planes in the flavor of Eberron I've been trying to concoct.
Hellcow 07-04-05, 09:50 PM	To be fair, the Elder Evils are the Cthulu parallels. The godlike overlords that are served by the Lords of Dust and probably have divine rank. Furthermore, the daelkyr are NOT the worst things in Xoriat. One of the more powerful daelkyr may be the equivalent of Dal Quor's Devourer of Dreams - but the DoD is still a big step down from the Dreaming Dark itself. The issue is that the greatest powers of Xoriat won't BE things that can easily be perceived or understood by mortals. The rakshasa overlords are, at least, nativeto our world/planeand thus embody concepts we can understand. I can certainly understand people not being happy with my take on mind flayers. Though I will note that my thing about mind flayers - and other aberrations, especially the daelkyr - is their utterly alien mindset. They aren't just humans with tentacles. They are the emissaries of the plane of madness, and their motives and thought processes should be disturbing and difficult to comprehend. Looking to beholders, I will again emphasize that while they serve in the armies of the daelkyr, they may be something far more than that - the eyes of Xoriat itself. What that means is up to you. But they aren't just following daelkyr around saying "Yes, master" - because even the daelkyr themselves don't use that sort of hierarchy. The daelkyr aren't TRYING to escape: theyare doing mysterious things in the depths. They are a lurking and inscrutible threat, but the rakshasa rajahs are a much closer parallel to the bound gods that may rise up and shatter the world with their return.
Hellcow 07-04-05, 09:58 PM	Thanks, as always, for clarifying things and giving your insight. And thank you for yours! Eberron is an evolving world that belongs to all of us, and other people have come up with excellent ideas that would never have occured to me. The idea of local planes is certainly a logical and interesting interpretation of the orrerry system, even if I see the planes in a different way, and the beauty of these boards is that they give the DMs all of these ideas to choose from. I certainly don't think my ideas are GOING to be the best ones, which is why I'm trying to emphasize that unlike Dragonshards, Eberron Expanded is not offical... just one more way of looking at things. So thanks for sharing your ideas and listening to mine!
stone_dog 07-04-05, 10:00 PM	The daelkyr aren't TRYING to escape: . I like to think that they have a cosmic version of a Chromatic Happy Apple dangling in front of them. The wards that keep Xoriat away might be entrancing to the Daelkyr and keep them basically drugged up so that they can't focus on anything on a grand scale. They are happily doing their little projects of mind numbing terror, starkly incomprehensible purposes and fiddling with symbiots in their spare time. when the wards fall down or Xoriat comes back they will sober up and go right back to tearing down the fundamental blocks of reality to see what amazing wonders they can create out of the destruction. Of course, it IS just a random thought that kinda makes me chuckle in evilness.
makeshiftwings 07-05-05, 12:55 AM	I can certainly understand people not being happy with my take on mind flayers. Though I will note that my thing about mind flayers - and other aberrations, especially the daelkyr - is their utterly alien mindset. They aren't just humans with tentacles. They are the emissaries of the plane of madness, and their motives and thought processes should be disturbing and difficult to comprehend. Looking to beholders, I will again emphasize that while they serve in the armies of the daelkyr, they may be something far more than that - the eyes of Xoriat itself. What that means is up to you. But they aren't just following daelkyr around saying "Yes, master" - because even the daelkyr themselves don't use that sort of hierarchy. The daelkyr aren't TRYING to escape: theyare doing mysterious things in the depths. They are a lurking and inscrutible threat, but the rakshasa rajahs are a much closer parallel to the bound gods that may rise up and shatter the world with their return. I do agree on the alien mindset and everything. I think it's mostly the choice of words that I dislike; calling them "servants" and "servitor races" and "living artillery" definitely make it seem like the daelkyr are just using their superior hit points and attack bonus to push the mind flayers and beholders around, and make them do their dirty work. I feel like the way its written now paints the daelkyr overlords as the masterminds, and the flayers and beholders as their puppets or soldiers. I would rather have the mind flayers (and to a lesser extent, beholders) be their own masterminds with their own agenda separate from the daelkyr. I think in the end it's just that I have this mind flayer obsession and I think they're "too cool to be servants". The Gith are a lowly slave race; not the mighty Illithid! :)
Ashrem Bayle 07-05-05, 09:01 AM	See, now this is the kind of stuff we need. Very interesting, very informative, and from Wizards point of view, it makes people buy books. I know, because I just got Lords of Madness. :) Everybody wins. This gets my vote as all-around best Eberron article to date.
Hellcow 07-05-05, 09:56 AM	I feel like the way its written now paints the daelkyr overlords as the masterminds, and the flayers and beholders as their puppets or soldiers. Whereas in my view they are more like the chief priests of a religion. While the daelkyr are not gods, they are the greatest manifested power of Xoriat on Eberron. But like gods, they are inscrutible even to those who serve them. The mind flayers ARE their servants. But that doesn't mean they are bowing and scraping all the time, or that they are puppets or soldiers. The mind flayers are the masterminds who coordinate the operations on the surface, where the daelkyr never go. The daelkyr are creating new races, new monsters, and engaged in other plans so far-reaching mortals will never understand them; the mind flayers are managing the short-term plans. I would rather have the mind flayers (and to a lesser extent, beholders) be their own masterminds with their own agenda separate from the daelkyr. Well, that I can't help you with, other than to say "So play it that way!" But my point is that the mind flayer "slavery" is not, I think as clear to an outside observer as you may see it. They are not "a lowly slave race" - they are the chief agents of a great power, and the primary cordinators of its plans on the surface. Likewise the beholders: they may serve the cause of the daelkyr, but they are the eyes of Xoriat itself. And as immortals, they may have actually seen the fall of Dhakaan - or even destroyed it with their own eyes. But I also think few people understand the daelkyr. Mind flayers have 30 years of history backing them up, plus the basic Lovecraftian archetype. The daelkyr have a paragraph. It's going to be some time before they have the detail required for people to understand them, and I think it will help when they do.
gaerfindel 07-05-05, 10:44 AM	I like to think that they have a cosmic version of a Chromatic Happy Apple dangling in front of them. The wards that keep Xoriat away might be entrancing to the Daelkyr and keep them basically drugged up so that they can't focus on anything on a grand scale. They are happily doing their little projects of mind numbing terror, starkly incomprehensible purposes and fiddling with symbiots in their spare time.See, now this is the kind of giggle-inducing evil that keeps me coming back to the boards! :thumbsup: And it's quite brilliant besides. Maybe that's why the Changegate was left open? Something to distract the daelkyr with tantalizing (but ultimately futile) possiblilities? The proverbial candle-flame that kills the proverbial moth, mayhaps? :evillaugh:
makeshiftwings 07-05-05, 04:12 PM	Whereas in my view they are more like the chief priests of a religion. While the daelkyr are not gods, they are the greatest manifested power of Xoriat on Eberron. But like gods, they are inscrutible even to those who serve them. The mind flayers ARE their servants. But that doesn't mean they are bowing and scraping all the time, or that they are puppets or soldiers. The mind flayers are the masterminds who coordinate the operations on the surface, where the daelkyr never go. The daelkyr are creating new races, new monsters, and engaged in other plans so far-reaching mortals will never understand them; the mind flayers are managing the short-term plans. Well, that I can't help you with, other than to say "So play it that way!" But my point is that the mind flayer "slavery" is not, I think as clear to an outside observer as you may see it. They are not "a lowly slave race" - they are the chief agents of a great power, and the primary cordinators of its plans on the surface. Likewise the beholders: they may serve the cause of the daelkyr, but they are the eyes of Xoriat itself. And as immortals, they may have actually seen the fall of Dhakaan - or even destroyed it with their own eyes. But I also think few people understand the daelkyr. Mind flayers have 30 years of history backing them up, plus the basic Lovecraftian archetype. The daelkyr have a paragraph. It's going to be some time before they have the detail required for people to understand them, and I think it will help when they do. I guess when you put it that way it doesn't seem so bad. If the illithid are more of the mindset of "they need us, and we have something to gain by temporarily serving them" rather than "oh no! it's the daelkyr! do whatever they say or they'll kill us all!" then I can handle it. I think you're right that I might like the daelkyr's role more if there were more written about them. Right now, they're the new kids on the block, and for me, they haven't earned the right to take the mantle of "lords of tentacled abberationiness" away from the illithid yet. ;)
talion09 07-05-05, 04:17 PM	See, now this is the kind of giggle-inducing evil that keeps me coming back to the boards! :thumbsup: And it's quite brilliant besides. Maybe that's why the Changegate was left open? Something to distract the daelkyr with tantalizing (but ultimately futile) possiblilities? The proverbial candle-flame that kills the proverbial moth, mayhaps? :evillaugh: Changegate? Whats that?
aelryinth 07-05-05, 09:24 PM	I will respectfully disagree with Hellcow's take on one little item. The Keepers of the Cerulean Sign make WONDERFUL agents of the Chamber...basically a more lore-intense, arcane-focused Gatekeeper society, in service to the Dragons against both Khyber and the Daelkyr. However, the Topaz? They are of Good alignment, Divine Grace is a pre-req, and the whole thing is originally presented as a religious knighthood. I heretofore present: The Devoted Order of Supernal Topaz Defenders The most ancient of the known Knighthoods of Khorvaire is this pre-Galifar order sponsored by the Good deities of the Sovereign Host. Long before the equally long-titled Order of the Exorcists of the Silver Flame was formed, it was the Topaz Defenders who were the front line of the holy fight against the forces which seek to infiltrate and possess the minds of men. With their singular diadems rendering them immune to command and possession by fiends and aberrations alike, and possessed of the knowledge of the unclean, the gold and topaz-armored paladins, priests and free-thinking rangers (not to mention Shadowbane and Holy Liberators) were one of the most trusted forces among the common people of Khorvaire for their unflinching valor and ever-seeking vigilance against the foes that prey unseen on the common people. The visibility of the Topaz has faded somewhat with the rise of the Silver Flame. Many paladins are drawn to the more flagrant, open opposition to Evil espoused by the Flame, and paladins of the Sovereign Host tend to be looked down on the Silver Flame as being somehow lacking in faith and devotion. This lack of visibility has helped the Topaz all the more. While the Silver Flamers make bright and tempting targets, the Topaz work the shadows their counterparts have no place in, doing the kind of good work few ever hear of...and even fewer want to know of. While their long-lived enemies know of the Topaz and certainly haven't forgotten them, they generally consider the order a dying thing...when it is anything but. In the wake of the Mournland, ex-soldiers and fighting men who have seen things better left unsaid have silently been drawn to the Topaz Order, and the diadems of the Topaz are being quietly issued in greater numbers now then perhaps ever before. The Silver shine and the Topaz creep, the same fight in different places. Notes: Silver Flamers can certainly take levels in the Topaz Defenders, but tend to be looked down upon by 'purist' Silver Flamers as compromising their faith, and so tend to pursue the path of the Exoricist. The much more free-wheeling nature of the Topaz Defenders tends to somewhat dismay the Silver Flame, as well. There are no overt hostilities between the different orders, the Silver Flame tends to be somewhat condescending to the more ancient, 'dying order' of knighthood, oblivious to the true strength and power of the Defenders...and how solidly entrenched they are, having grown past pure support from the Church of the Host to having their own sources of support and income from a wider variety of sources. As a side note: Characters with Paladin levels may explicity continue advancing as paladins when existing the Topaz Defender PrC, even if they took another class (typically Ranger) in between, a sign of blessings from the Sovereign Host for their millenia-old vigilance and forebearance. ===Aelryinth 8-)
aelryinth 07-07-05, 12:59 AM	No comments on this take? I think the Sovereign Host should have their own sponsored Knighthood...and the flexible, short, multi-application use of the Topaz just endears itself to me this way. The entry reqs are far looser, meaning you have a wider assortment of knights, but the benefits work equally well against all the mind-snatching horrors of the setting. And if it's sponsored by the Host, it's likely been around far longer then the Order of the Silver Flame and its Exorcists. ===Aelryinth
AvonRekaes 07-07-05, 01:42 AM	I really like the idea of tying the Topaz order to the Sovreign Host. I hadn't even thought about that in my game (I made them a sub-order of the Silver Flame). I tend to forget about the Sovereigns because they are so "laid back" and feel more like a casual religion. I think the Topaz Order would do the Sovereign's justice. Perhaps maybe it's sponsored by Dol Arrah and Balinor specifically. (Honor, Self-Sacrifice, and Hunt) Like Aelyrinth, I too did a detailed conversion of one of the prestige classes from Lords of Madness. I also did a few mechanical alterings to the class. I posted it a while ago, when I first got Lords of Madness, but I bumped it because I thought it was more relevant with the current article. You can find it here. The Enlightened Mind (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=413883)
aelryinth 07-07-05, 05:51 AM	Very good, very thorough. Didn't skip on the effort or the conversion. Two thumbs up! I'll have to do a Knowledge Check Chart for the Topaz! ===Aelryinth
aelryinth 07-07-05, 06:47 PM	Topaz Knowledge DC’s Knowledge Checks (History, or Religion if a follower of the Sovereign Host). Gather Information is suitable if searching for a Topaz contact. A Priest of the Sovereign Host has a +2 modifier to any of these checks due to the Order’s close association with the Church(es). DC 10 – The Supernal Order of the Topaz is the ancient and storied knightly order of the Sovereign Host, now in decline. DC 15 – The power and Emblem of the Knights are symbolized by the Topaz diadem they all wear. They have fought against creatures that plague the mind and souls of the faithful for as long as the Host has been known, but are much more free-wheeling then Silver Flamers. DC 20 (or Gather Information DC 30-level of Knight) – The Knights get support from more then the Church. Many landed nobility or wealthy folk support the Order or have been members in the past. Also identifies any famous Topaz Defenders hailing from the local area, current or past. Topaz Knights prefer discretion to fame in their line of work. Also learn that the Elite Knights of the Order are called Topaz Guardians. DC 25 – This check will note that the Order, while being less open, seems to have grown in numbers in recent years, what local powers support the Order, and where to go to contact them. DC 30 – A Knowledge check of this level will give an excellent idea of famous Topaz, their deeds, where they are based and how to contact their major bases…and their alliances with other organizations fighting the fight against the Plague of Shadows (the Topaz name for their battle against mind-controlling entities). --Mmmm, not the cleanest, but it should work. ===Aelryinth
greatfrito 07-07-05, 09:44 PM	If I may, now that I've sat down with a copy of Lords of Madness for a while and read things through, I'm kinda sad that they Grell aren't tied to the Daelkyr in some way. So I'm making them the -former- "soldiers" of the Daelkyr invasion, replaced eventually by the tainted and twisted Dolgrims and Dolguants. I needed a be-tentacled mid-CR aberration with ties to the Daelkyr. Makes me happy now!
aelryinth 07-08-05, 06:23 PM	Methods of the Topaz Defenders The Topaz Defenders are, as an Order, far more open then the Silver Flame. This comes because the Sovereign Host is far more eclectic in the worshippers they attract, and so the Topaz Guardians are far more lenient in who they admit then, say, the Exorcists of the Silver Flame. Too, the method of recruitment is far more comfortable and familiar. A Flamer would say to a warrior he just rescued from illithids, "Only with the power of the Flame can you stand against such horrors as these! Stand with us, and be victorious!" This doom-laden statement goes well with the zealous and the fearful, but tends to irritate those more free of heart. The Topaz Defender would say, "Any man with courage and strength of will can stand against those who would prey on the weak. Come and stand beside me, and I will show you how it is done." The Topaz are as much about giving hope and empowerment to the average man as about saving the innocent, and they worry far less about the primacy of their religion then the task they have devoted themselves to. ========================= Classes Paladins: The Paladins of the Host form the solid martial core of the Order, having the easiest time qualifying for the Topaz Guardians. With Divine Grace to bolster their will saves, multiple smiting abilities, the ability to sense evil and immunity to fear, paladins form the stalwart bastion upon which the Order rests. The gifts of being a Topaz Guardian apply equally well against Daelkyr and their minions, the Lords of Dust and their allies, and even minions of the Dreaming Dark, securing the mind and heart of the Guardian. Rangers: Neutral and Chaotic rangers with Aberrations as a foe find it something of a struggle to qualify for the Guardians, but make deadly foes once they do. They are among the best of the order at sniffing out the Plague, their minions and servants, and bringing the battle to them. Forming the elite scouts of the Order, they often assess their foe's plans and defenses in startling detail before going to other members of the Order for further aid. Where Silver Flamers would likely look down on such free spirits approaching the battle their own way, Topaz value the unpredictable means and methods of the rangers as a potent tool against the machinations of the enemy. Fighters: Fighters often have difficulty in qualifying for Guardian status without multi-classing, but their wide array of combat abilities makes them invaluable against the Plague. With a solid mix of ranged and melee tactics specifically learned to combat the Plague, Fighters make dangerous foes, and those who qualify for the Guardians are deadly, implacable enemies. Barbarians: Rage and smiting the Plague makes for a potent combination, and selfless barbarians make fine companions for stealthy rangers. With his mind free from the effect of mental assaults, a Raging Guardian is a terrifying foe for any aberration to face...immensely hard to grapple, virtually impervious to mental attack, and lethal in physical assault. Rogues: It is rare for Rogues to choose such an enlightened calling as the Topaz, but some feel the urge, particularly after personal experience with alien thoughts wrapped up inside their skulls, or watching dear friends having their brains sucked out. Rogue Topaz are masters of the Urban hunt for Cultists, possessed of a wide variety of skills that can sniff out the Plague from the highest levels of society to the lowest. They can work equally well with free-spirits and martial discipline, and by and large are the most 'professional' about their job. Many Rogues have levels in the Inquisitive class who join the Topaz. It is usually an Inquisitor Rogue who holds directing power over a large gathering of Topaz, organizing them with focused intellect and skill, and is often the 'public face' of the Topaz with extraordinary people skills. Slippery-minded Topaz rogues are extremely hard to mentally control or confuse, and apt to notice such effects used on them. Bards - Bards qualify remarkably easily for the Topaz, usually from the perspective of fighting for personal freedom. Cult Hunters on a par with Rogues, they tend to be less organized, but masters of the social arena, with excellent support skills to inspire their comrades to greater deeds and actions. Holy Liberator Bards make truly devoted Topaz Guardians that can motivate small armies to take a stand against the Plague. Clerics - Clerics with the Knowledge Domain qualify easily for the Guardians, and serve in a support role to the rest of the Defenders. Often they form the solid support line of the Order, operating Churches, safe houses and places of healing where members of the Order can retreat or retire to in safety and peace, or where those stricken by the Plague can come to for succor. From easing the nightmarish dreams of a mage who must learn the unclean lore of the illithids, to removing the enslimed skin of those afflicted by an aboleth, clerics reinforce, protect and support the Order and all those afflicted by the Plague unstintingly as the living arms of the Host. Magi: Pure Magi rarely become Guardians, but are often members of the Order, seeing first hand what horrors need to be fought, and often understanding far more of them then any other class. Magi work superbly well with rogues, as pure intellect and skill often do, in deciphering the plans and strategems of the enemy, and often take Aberration Bane as a metamagic feat. It should be noted that a Mage truly devoted to fighting the Plague often becomes a Keeper of the Cerulean Sign, and thus a hidden Agent of the Chamber. The Topaz has long known of this relationship, but Cerulean Keepers fight Khyber and the Daelkyr with unstinting zeal, and are possessed of more pure knowledge about the Plague then possibly any other organization, save the Chamber itself. Sorcerors: Sorcerors who join the Topaz often do it in a personal war against the Dragon Below. More prone to adventure lust then magi, Sorcerors often feel a calling in their blood to bring the battle to the hordes of Khyber, and by extension the Daelkyr. Monks: Monks qualify for Guardians easily, and make superb field agents in all areas. Perhaps the most impervious of the Topaz to mental attack and domination, Topaz monks can reach masterminds of the Plague with speed and occupy them with martial discipline despite any number of obstacles, allowing their fellows time to work through lesser beings. They work especially well in tandem with Rogues when Cult Hunting. Artificers: Rarely are artificers members of the Topaz, having more worldly things to occupy their time. They are often called in as mercenaries, hirelings, or for support roles, but would generally only join the Order if somehow personally stricken somehow by the deeds of the Plague. The ability to craft constructs immune to mental domination is not a task to be overlooked, nor the ability to tailor weaponry particularly deadly against specific foes. Druids: Generally speaking, Druids who despise Aberrations generally join the Gatekeepers, and those with a REAL mad on for them join the Abolishers. The Topaz willingly accept those who choose to ally with them, and such Druids generally form the same kind of support role for wild settings as Clerics do for rural and urban. A Topaz Druid will generally be at the center of a circle of Topaz rangers and barbarians devoted to the fight against the Plague, and probably closely affiliated with or even serving as a more uplifting spiritual center to a group of otherwise grim Abolishers. Races Humans are the most numerous members of the Order, both by dint of numbers and aspects of Faith. As the most common prey of the Plague, and the most likely to form Cults, they also tend to be the most common foe the Order does battle with, usually as dupes, pawns, fanatics and disguises for masterminds. Dwarves are also remarkably apt to join the Order, enjoying its crusading theme against the Plague, and the history behind it without the zeal typical of the Silver Flame. The knowledge that their ancestors were wiped out by the Daelkyr has caused the numbers of Topaz among the Mror to increase substantially in recent years. Elves find little reason to affiliate with the Order, their interests turned in other directions. The rare adventurer will choose the Plagues as a life-path, and a Valenar might well find the Topaz a worthy goal to aspire to, as a battle against a nigh-invincible foe. Half-Elves of all origins are often quietly drawn to the tasks of the Topaz. Their diplomatic skills and ability to move at different levels of society makes them natural hunters of cults, and their love of freedom often sets them at odds against the tyrannical mindsets of the Plague. Gnomes enjoy the Topaz as a deadly Game of move and counter-move, perhaps the deadliest one could play, with Masters who have been honing their skills for millenia. To a gnome, uncovering the plots of a fiend, outwitting an illithid, or simply planting a pick in the skull of a great umber hulk all show his mastery, and generate a thrill of cerebral victory like no other. Only humans outnumber gnomes among the Topaz. Orcs, Half-Orcs and Goblin-kin: All such have been members of the Topaz in the past, although the Good alignment qualifier makes it a rarity. Possessed of a racial anathema for the Daelkyr, these races can often be recruited for service against the Plague if it involves the Daelkyr. Regretfully, they are also often subverted and used as pawns by those same beings. Halflings: The Halflings of Eberron tend to be either too worldly or too barbaric to take up the Topaz mantle often, although they make fine scouts and agents once they do join. For most, the thought of doing battle with the Dragon Below on a regular basis is just not a career choice they would rather pursue above the protection of clan and family. ========================= I would also like to Posit another possibility on the origins of Neogi and Umber Hulks. Neogi, being of small size and clever tongues, are made from Gnomes by the Daelkyr. Their (underground?) ships are part of their instinctual genius, domination instincts and society a brutal version of the gnomish intellect and social infighting at work...along with sly tongues that conceal much. It also means they could master Elemental binding and have their spider ships in imitation of the stock they are descended from. Umber Hulks are made from Dwarves, their wits dulled, their affinity for Earth and fighting instincts made stronger, and made into a puppet race for the neogi to honor their millenia-long battle to hold off the Daelkyr. Their ability to endlessly tunnel in servitude to their masters is a fine perversion of the Dwarven love of mining. ===Aelryinth