Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ghorticus 09-05-04, 10:15 PM	I have been a part of the same Dungeons and Dragons group for about 4 years (ever since the introduction of the 3rd-edition rules), consisting of a bunch of my close friends. In our group we rotate the position of Dungeon Master every few months, and the DM either continues on with the previous campaign or starts a new one. Well, I've decided that we should give Eberron a shot, since I absolutely love the feel of the setting and I am getting really sick of the Forgotten Realms. Anyways, here's the problem: my players are munchkins. By that, I mean that despite being qualified roleplayers and really fun to play with, they are overly concerned with their characters's statistics. I have not served as Dungeon Master for this group in about two years, and since then, the main Dungeon Master has basically fostered the powergaming attitude among the players. The following is the current character creation method that we use: 4d6, drop-lowest, re-roll 1's and 2's. And for hit points on level-ups, we flip a coin and call it as it's in the air; if we win the flip, we get max hit points, otherwise we have to take half or choose to roll and take what we get... This leads to even the weakest of character classes such as the sorcerer to becoming absolute tanks. This leads to insanely powerful characters, much more powerful in relation to the challenges we're put against, and proves way too easy. For example, at 6th-level, the 4 of us breezed through the Heart of Nightfang Spire module. However, when I last ran a game and used the standard 25-point buy method, the players resented me for it and were not pleased at all. Anyways, I am planning to begin an Eberron campaign, which I hope will last a long time. I plan to bring my players through The Forgotten Forge, the adventure in Dungeon #113 (forget the name of it), the Shadows of the Last War, and then build on afterwards with my own adventures once I have a good feel for the campaign setting. I am going to be using the point-buy system again for generating characters. My question is, that considering my plans to mostly run the published adventures with minor changes, how many points should I allow for the character creation point-buy? Would 32 or 36 points be unreasonably high if I still wanted my characters to be challenged? I think it would be better to give them a nice amount of points and just make my encounters significantly harder, like giving a number of the NPCs they face an extra level or two, and maximum hit points. Of course, no matter what I am abolishing that silly hit point system we currently have though. Any suggestions?
WhirlingBlade 09-05-04, 10:33 PM	Youch... I came from a similar situation in that I had the fun of dealing with munchkin players. One thing that allowed me to continue is that fact that I am the DM.. Not them... If they want to be the player then they just have to learn to live with the fact that you are the DM and "what you say goes". One of my players was getting so outta hand that I even had to start restricting the feats that were available to the characters, and its something that they just have to live with. Eberron from what I read is an excellently designed and thought out world, where even players with average to low stats are still heros, and thus still get the ACTION POINTS to help make them different from the enemy Rogue they encounter on the high bridges of Sharn, that enemy will not have action points... But to answer your question I think that 36 points is too high. 32 sounds a bit better, but 28-30 is best IMO... But this is just my opinion. I do not use the point buy methods as I perfer the randomness of rolling. One thing I have learned to use for most of my games is like the standard 4d6 drop lowest, six times, assign as desired, but I give them a "free" 18, and only get them to roll 5 more times. This way they get their "high" stat for their prime requisit, and then have to hope for better rolls in the remaining 5... Hope this helped... WB
Gurv 09-05-04, 10:33 PM	4d6, drop-lowest, re-roll 1's and 2's. And for hit points on level-ups, we flip a coin and call it as it's in the air; if we win the flip, we get max hit points, otherwise we have to take half or choose to roll and take what we get... This leads to even the weakest of character classes such as the sorcerer to becoming absolute tanks. So you're saying that the lowest stat anyone could have is 9? I can't do all the math here, but the implications are characters with multiple 17s and 18s. I have always said that I DM the ultimate group of powergamers. I will be sending them all a link to this post as I admit this. I was wrong. But, I will tell you our current method for generating ability scores. Thus far, it has created characters with high scores, but not as sky-high as you must see. It also leaves a lot of flexability to the players. Have them assign divide 60 amongst 6 ability scores, none of which may be above 12. Then have them roll 6d6 and add a single die result to each score. I let them assign the scores as they wish after adding the additional die, but am considering having them assign the scores to abilities first, then rolling the additional dice. I think that will let them control where their best scores are without knowing exactly what they will be. At least I can still claim to have the worst min/max group in the world. Your group is obviously max/max. Gurv
Saurenda 09-05-04, 10:35 PM	I think adding a level or two to the bag guy is a great idea. you could give the BBEG a fe wlevels of paragon if you so choose, and it would still make things interesting. As for making things challaneging for the min max players, do somethigns a bit more unconventional. Have a dragonmarked mercenary use a spell like shield other and such to help protect his emplyer when the party fights, and also do little things like camaflauged caltrops. Easy for an artificer of 1 or 2 second level as it is a minor illusion with the ground. Another small thing to liven the moment up is have an artificer cast ray of enfeeblement through a scroll or spell stored item on one of the stronger characters. Poision is another good method. Several level one archers with posion can do a number if the party is caught in an ambush. A level 2 barbarian warforge that charges and rages to accompany this should lighten things up. Do simple things, and keep them on the verge taking action related steps rather than thinking about thier abilities in a min maxing sense. Encourage the rouge to tumble rather than sneak attack, in hopes of aiding a fellow in a trip attack. Make them so dependant on each other it becomes a matter of what they can accomplish together rather than what can the character do alone. Hope that helped ^^
Alac Luin 09-05-04, 10:41 PM	I was thinking about suggesting a 27 point buy as to not overpower them with a 30 point buy. I would say a 30 point buy is reasonable. I Shadows of the Last War a few encounters have been trublesome for some people, until they started to use the action points. (granted, some players breased through it, even the encounters they shouldn't have)
Saurenda 09-05-04, 10:41 PM	If all else fails have a gnome with the mark of scribing make a : Note to the PCs Illionary script so only they can read Have Spehia Snake Sigil and Exploding Runes on it. Add anny other visual only or read only effect on it too Instant Party crasher.
ChrisTheS 09-05-04, 10:50 PM	When you run Shadows of the Last War, do whatever you have to to slow them down getting from the mist border to Whitehearth (if they convince/bully the guy into taking them there in his landcart, broken cartwheels necessitating several hours repair has great potential). Then encourage them to find alternatives to hack-and-slashing their way through the rest of the adventure. If you can manage to get them thinking of combat as a potential danger and not a free font of XPs, then you don't have to constantly up the CR of future encounters to compensate.
Rolzup 09-05-04, 10:56 PM	Aw, that's nuthin'. Game I'm in right now, here's how the DM had us generate ability scores: Roll 2d6 for each ability, rerolling all 1s and 2s. Then take 40 points, and distribute them as you like. One-to-one, mind -- it takes seven points to go from 11 to 18. Plus, if you're a demihuman you can buy one ability up to 19, before adding the racial bonus. The result for my character, an Elven Swashbuckler/Rogue, was: ST: 18 DX: 21 CN: 14 IN: 18 WI: 10 CH: 14 ...which has proven to be a bit silly. Nor is he the toughest guy in the party. The GM's feeling is that there's no point in playing characters who AREN'T mighty heroes. It's been an interesting change, but I've found that I really prefer the standard method. These PCs are just too overpowered for my tastes. But how has the DM handled it? Powerful foes; one of our first combats was four 2nd level PCs against three rogues of at least 4th level, plus an 8th level assassin. We, ah, kinda got slaughtered. One PC dead, two unconscious, and the last guy ran off. I'd likely handle things a bit differently. Use the standard CR monsters, but add environmental facotrs in their favor. Fighting in the driving rain, on slippery rocks, against a creature that can cling to the slick surface. Or give human(oid) foes a tactical advantage like higher ground and/or a prepared position. Make 'em work for their victories, but don't stomp on them.
ChrisTheS 09-05-04, 11:05 PM	One thing to bear in mind is that just increasing or decreasing the CRs is not a foolproof way to rebalance the game. Case in point: in one game, I pulled a standard 'start off the PCs facing off against some kobolds' encounter. Standard 4d6-drop-lowest rolls, reroll anything under 9, rearrange points as you see fit. In the end I had a party of 5 characters with slightly above-average stats. I figured, 'heck, against kobolds, no sweat.' I reduced the entire party to 1 HP apiece in that encounter, because the players all botched their attack rolls repeatedly. Just bear in mind that the CR is not always right...
Ghorticus 09-06-04, 12:51 AM	Thanks for the advice everyone. I'm thinking that a 30-point buy would be the most reasonable option (considering that what we're running now are pretty much the equivalent of 50-60 point buy characters). If they start to breeze through the adventures, I will make some minor adjustments to make it more challenging for them.
stone_dog 09-06-04, 01:12 AM	Make 'em work for their victories, but don't stomp on them. Heh, this thread reminds me to go compile John Wick's "Play Dirty" articles from Pyramid magazine again so I have them for handy reading. Best GM advice ever and at the risk of angering the Wizo's, it alone is almost worth the price of subscription.
Takitron 09-06-04, 02:06 AM	/me points to this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=300267) or you could just use vanilla 4d6 drop low.. I like 24d6, assign 3-6d6 to each stat, roll and keep highest three, its fun and lets you shoot for a class you have in mind
tete 09-06-04, 02:32 AM	Sounds like your having a min/max issue more than a munch issue. Theres basicly 3 ways you can go on this 1. Not use d&d, class/level systems presented in D&D lend themselves to this style of play rather than some of the more classless skill basied systems where you dont care about leveling beacause a new character can still be deadly. 2. Use a differnt d20 system, this allows you to use all those d&d book you have while still pulling away (and in the case of mutants and masterminds very far away) from the class/level system. 3. Live with it, if you learn not to care about the sometimes cheesey d&d things that happen and just have a good time it really is for the best because every system will have somthing you don't like. Personaly I would buy the Advanced Players Guide by White Wolf and borrow someones copy of Mutants and Masterminds so i can steal the character creation system. This gives you a way more grim and gritty style of play along with a point basied character creation (as in everything is points... skills, feats, even your base attack) I personaly plan for my next Eberron campaign to be classes unless you want a prestige class. Thats my 1/50th of a dollar
Arianna Greenleaf 09-06-04, 06:21 AM	It really doesn't matter what the players stats are (or if they min/max) as long as you remember the golden rule... if the PCs can do it, so can the NPCs. Here are some other things: • Toughen up your NPCs (max HP, +2 levels/HD, potions they drink before ambushing PCs) • Add circumstantial modifiers (mist, weather, rain, slippery, combat while climbing or swimming, drowning potential, etc... those modifiers can add up) • Add traps during combat • Add situational things (must do all combat in 3 rounds before roof comes down, one foe is running away with kidnapped innocent in tow, bridge PCs are fighting on is about to fall apart, etc.) • NPCs fight smart (half their force is waiting around the corner, waiting for overconfident PCs; NPC bosses have devoted-defenders healing them or protecting them with spell or sword, etc.) • Introduce poisons/diseases (poisoned weapons, monster pet with disease bite) • Antimagic zones or golems or invisible wizards who only cast dispel magic as a readied action or archers 400-ft. away readying actions to shot spellcasters (forced concentration checks) • Recurring villians (might wait to ambush PCs while they are in the middle of another combat already!) • Make the PCs choices matter (if they really attack this bunch, they might risk the ire of House xxx, who ends up sending wave after wave of foes at them or prevents easy travel modes, etc.) • Sunder and spells that destroy items can easily deal with players that depend on items too much • Living spell can potentially be a nice touch to roll into an existing combat Anyway, you get the point. The DM must do some work to make the published adventure challenging for the min/max PCs. Spice it up with unpredictable things. The PCs stats won't be such a deciding factor anymore.
GrayS 09-06-04, 07:24 AM	IMHO, WhirlingBlade has made exactly the right point: You are the DM, and what you say goes! If they can't handle that, then they aren't fit sit in on any group. Also IMHO, I am not a big fan of point-buy systems, however you tweak them. I've been DMing for over 20 years (v1, v2, v2.5, v3, v3.5...) and have used the following mehtod for over 10 of those years: Roll 24d6 (in one go - it's very satisfying in itself!), and discard the lowest six dice. Then assign any three WHOLE DICE to each ability stat as the player wants. It's much more flexible than 4d6 seperately, it allows the player to 18 his/her prime stat (assuming they roll good), but it also means that they get a more "balanced" character because if they do max one (or more stats), then other stats get lowered very quickly. They effectively have to choose: do they want one or two high stats and mostly other LOW stats, or a good average?
Bluebrush 09-06-04, 08:26 AM	Since we're discussing stat generating variations, here's one I made up: Basically, physical and mental stats are divided into two seperate groups, and each group is assigned 18 stat points (Or however many is suitable for the power level of your game) to spend as in normal point buy. (A 14 is 6 points, a 16 is 10 points, and so on. The system you all know and some of you love.) So you could go for 14's in all stats, or max out one physical and one mental stat to 18 and spend the last couple to put a 10 in a different stat. You can trade points in this system between physical and mental at a rate of one extra point for two from the other category. For instance, you could have 20 points to spend on physical stats if you gave up 4 mental stat points. Basically, I came up with this system after a player made up a barbarian who invested all his 32 points into physical stats and absolutely none into mental. It also helps characters make more physically able casters and more cerebral warrior types, which helps out character classes with multiple ability score dependency, such as Monks and Paladins. Examples: Initial balance, 18 points to spend on physical scores and mental each initially. Gamrius Note, Bard. (Prancy musician for hire!) Str: 12 (4 points) Dex: 16 (10) Con: 12 (4) Physical points: 18 points. Int: 14 (6) Wis: 10 (2) Chr: 16 (10) Mental points: 18 points. Total points: 36 Now a character who has chosen to focus on Physical stats: Axehilt McSwordblade (His parents were killed by orcs, now he wants revenge!) Str: 18 (16) Dex: 12 (4) Con: 12 (4) Physical Points: 24 (18 plus 6 from trading) Int: 12 (4) Wis: 8 (0) Chr: 10 (2) Mental Points: 6 (18 minus 12 from trading) Total points: 30 Thoughts?
MaxDog 09-06-04, 08:50 AM	I believe that over in the Ask Keith Baker thread, HellCow said he uses a 28 point buy in his Eberron campaign -- so 30 might not be bad to help ween your players back from Munchkin-land. Gonna have to sell my DM on the 24d6 method -- I can hear it now --the roll of thunder!
Rossogia 09-06-04, 10:34 AM	if u want to roll lots of dice play a wargame. (and remeber how many u had at the start easy to lose them!) I often give my players a choice on generating characters 5d6, or point buy 30ish(depending on my mood), i would do 4d6 and 25 but i have a tendecy to send them against monsters that are a bit out of there league :devil:. cuz IMO the coolest looking stuff is a bit higher then orcs.
elecgraystone 09-06-04, 10:39 AM	Point system evil! I'd rather roll and have the chance to be lucky than have to be "balanced" with everyone else! Point system encourages people to be unbalanced. "well I don't need CHR so I don't add any points. I'm a swordsman so I'll put everything into STR and CON and wear heavy armor." You end up with people that can only do one thing. And if you are someone like a monk that needs several stats, you end up being sub-par to even the NPCs at whatever you do. We use 4D6 reroll 1's or 5d6 no rerolls. For HP max at first, roll after but MIN is half your max. This gives us a OK character to start off. (very few characters have to be shot with this method) We like being a little better than the average NPC. We have found that this doesn't overpower us. (we have never cake walked through any dungeon rated for our level.) Quite the opposite really. More times than I can count the cr/el seemed rated a tad too low. A few extra stat bonuses just make adjustments less needed. But that's just us. I have to say Ghorticus that I'd be having a tantrum on the floor with the point system, but I also know groups that use it and like it. It's just not for me! I could work with that 24d6 method though. Sounds cool!
Saurenda 09-06-04, 11:45 AM	Axehilt McSwordblade (His parents were killed by orcs, now he wants revenge!) Thoughts? Um doesn't this guy belong on character ideas that DMs never want to hear again? I love it when you Post Bluebrush ^^ That was hilarious. Min/max names always are.
Cunning Gnome 09-06-04, 12:59 PM	I played in a game so overpowered (stupid dm who does know rules) he used 90 straight points for stats 1 for 1, with max stats being 25 instead of 18. He put us up against rediculous creatures that can do over 50 points of damaage in one hit and can hit AC's of 40 without much problem!!! and my guy was only level 5!!! somehow we still manage to survive. Dont ask about the epic level game he ran :looloo:
sheik 09-06-04, 01:48 PM	Well Ghorticus, it seems you've gotten quite a few suggestions. :) I thought I'd add a few of my own as well, and if you wish to indulge me, ramble about philosphy and D&D habit while I'm add it. But ultimately I'd be most curious to hear how things are turning out for you? I personally think D&D by it's nature promotes some bad roleplaying habits, such as players always expecting encounters to be balanced, being rewarded for combat over roleplaying, reliance on rules and combat grids over imagination, and the mentality of 'us' vs the DM or the module. But alas, it seems you already have players with some of these habits. I'm trying to design a campaign specifically to try to break some of these habits, but also trying to keep in mind that the players are there to have fun. It sounds like your players really like to be in control and know they are the biggest guy on the block. Assuming they thus get most of their enjoyment from 'winning', how do you take that to the next level of play? Okay, enough babble, here are a couple ideas or options I'm planning on trying with my group: 1. In my game, all there characters start out with amnesia. They don't know who they are or even what they are capable of. In other words, I created all the characters. Right off the bat, this takes away some of the munchkin aspect, and the game becomes less about rules as they are forced to roleplay and not rely on stats. That said, and being an ex-powergamer myself, I tried to create characters for them that were actually really good at what they do, they are heros after all. I even used a 32 pts buy system and made them with several levels to start. I could talk about this idea for hours, but I'm sure you can see the initial effect this would have, so I'll move on. 2. I'm trying to make the adventure less about combat, and more about the choices they make (though this is hard if you are running a module). Do they help the people in the burning hut or battle the attacking force? Do they fight on the red team or the blue team, and then what are the consequences for either choice? Who or what are they really fighting for?? 3. I've been thinking about making the bad guys just as tough as the PCs, as stated in other posts above. I've always like the idea of making an 'evil NPC party' using the same rules the players use for character creation. Personally I like the rules that whatever goes for the players also goes for the GM. If they use really nasty feat or spell combinations, what's stopping you from using it on them. Perhaps let them know anything they want, the bad guys can also have too. Winning easy battles is fun, but winning really tough battles is exhilarating. You can always use the old 'fighting yourself' theme as well. 4. Personally, I'm trying to design my campaign so the players aren't motivated by your traditional greed, power or glory. My own answer to how to do that is simply by giving the players all these things. Give them all the power they want. Now the question becomes 'how do they use the power?' You can add morals and ethics here as you see fit. Perhaps they are duped into using their powers for the wrong purpose. If they want wealth, give them more gold than they can carry. Not only do they have to decide what to leave behind, and how to carry it through a dungeon or in combat, but surely other people are going to want some of it now. Or perhaps it belongs to someone still alive, or maybe the king could use it to help fund his army against the horde to the north. Glory and reknown are easy to give, and as usual, responsibilities and enemies come with it. I'm hoping that if I given them what they want, they'll have to think a bit deeper about their character's other motivations. 5. Lastly, perhaps just remind the players that the power level of Eberron is much lower. Even at mid-levels with a 32 pt buy, you'll be powerhouses relatively. But isn't that the point, everything is relative. Well, obviously I've ramble long enough, but thank you for letting me vent my ideas. Other people's thoughts are welcome. 2¢, sheik.
Magagumo 09-06-04, 02:17 PM	As I think people have well-covered the issues here (wean the group down to 28-30 pb and play smart), here's a few more ideas to challenge them. Create a sniper archer who fights from the rooftops of derelict buildings- he has an incredible balance check, enabling him to run on the edges of the buildings, but the rest of the group will end up crashing through the rooftops if they aren't careful [Just ran this at 15th lvl with an abyssal ghoul- Balance 40 allowed for 2 in' firing surfaces and blindsight 90' allowed him to sneak attack within Obscuring Mist. Adjust for the books you have, perhaps switching straight rogue build for ranger/rogue/monk, etc. if Blindsight isn't available. Works wonders against the heavily amored tanks.) Create an NPC who grapples well and take isolated players hostage mid-combat (esp. mages/cohorts)- Half-Giant fighter [Occult Slayer for fun] did the trick this past week as well. Pinning allows you to prevent those nasty Verbal-only spells ;) Hit them while they sleep with a well-balanced group of fighters & mages (perhaps a cleric w/ Mass Cure or such). Throw in a nasty surprise to throw them off. Personally, I prefer the Phrenic Young Adult Red Dragon that utilizes Fission :devil:
Brastan 09-06-04, 03:51 PM	Make um write at least a one paragraph background during character creation, including at least one plot device you can use. Standard 4d6 rolling. Sympathy toward good character concepts. (full re-rolls if stats and character idea don't match well). I dealt with power-gamers in Skill and Powers during 2nd Ed *shudder*. I leaned one thing, "just say no". If they're your friends and you have a good DM record/ Player record they should trust you. My group grew up from power gaming in to what's becoming Role Playing. We always used 4d6 standard rolling to keep all of our games unified on character creation. In the current Eberron game I'm running I have a Pirate whose twin bother was sacrificed by the Blood of Vol, an artificer who wants to take control of house Canaith, and Valenar elven ranger looking for a mystical cure to a plague that has befallen her tribe.
Zagumus 09-06-04, 04:08 PM	Try something completely different have them start with a 24 point by and there first level be a NPC level. 1 Expert, 1 Magewright, 1 Adept and 1 Warrior off on there great adventure. I have always enjoyed playing severly disadvantaged PC. It make everthing a challenge. I would give them better starting cash, 6D6 x 10gp, and say they are wealthy middle class that want to try something new.
atanhel 09-06-04, 04:13 PM	this might sound evil, but the best way to teach them a lesson is using the organic-roll ( I used it myself, and since them, haven't used anything else!) they have to rely on their own insight! it might take some time getting used to, but it beats the munskin-feel out foregood :D
Zagumus 09-06-04, 04:26 PM	:confused: organic-roll
nevcoup 09-06-04, 04:42 PM	:confused: organic-roll Ditto! What is an organic roll??? All I can picture is a bran roll with sesame seeds :mymy:
Brastan 09-06-04, 05:21 PM	:mymy: Not nice atanhel, that is evil. The organic roll is hold over from older editions, although it can be comical it can also lead to much upsetsness. The organic method is as fallows (at least what I remember). -Roll 3d6 for Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma in that order. You may not rearrange or re-roll stats. You take them as you roll them I hope your lucky. Example: Stat rolls in order 17, 5, 10, 12, 16, 8 (Okay so I was lucky) The stats would be Str 17, Dex 5, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 8 This could make a good combat cleric
Cap'n Nick 09-06-04, 05:41 PM	I got together like 8 people from work the make characters last night for our game which will be sunday nights. Organic roll. Sweet jesus can we say massacre in the making? But it should be fun. This'll be the first game i've run in years, and everyone wanted to play eberron. it wasn't exactly organic, but really really close. i allowed a 7th roll and the option of swapping that 7th for any of the 6, or swapping any two of the six. But it certainly has an organic feel, and with the party tank being a barbarian with 14 str, things will get very interesting very quickly. he has more hit points, at 14, than any three other characters combined. I'm seeing a lot of opportunity for character building through death. nik
WilliamPall 09-06-04, 07:20 PM	Okay, I was looking through this message thread and I saw someithing in the inital post that I don't think anyone has mentioned anything about (not 100% sure, kinda skimmed a little). But flipping a coin for max hit points per level? That's a 50/50 chance to get max hit points with a character that almost certainly has a high Con Bonus. . . . The only thing I want to suggest is my groups house rule for rolling HP. Both player and DM roll a die of appropriate type. The player can see the die that they roll, but the DM rolls behind the screen . . . the player then must decide whether to take their roll, or the roll of the DM, before the DM's die is revealed. Yes, it's slightly munchkin-ized . . . but I don't think it is to the extent of a coin toss.
Magagumo 09-06-04, 10:45 PM	Re: hp TO ensure we don't end up with crippling hp, my group rolls as follows: 1d4= keep what you roll, 1d6=keep what you roll, 1d8=Re-roll a 1 once, 1d10= re-roll a one twice, 1d12= re-rolla one twice or a 2 once. This ensures that the party isn't hitting rock-bottom on h, but still keeps the munchanisms (munchanizing?) down a bit...
Greyson 09-06-04, 11:12 PM	The idea of flipping a coin for Hit Points is really odd and a bit too inventive. It's not fair either. We use the RPGA standard of maximum Hit Points plus Con Bonus at first level. Then, half of maximum Hit Points per class plus one, plus Con Bonus. It is very fair, does not rely on chance, and is very consistent with each character class. We also use the 28-point buy for character ability scores. It is perfect and the DMG has the points listed. This system too, is fair, does not rely on chance and gives players the maximum opportunity to customize their characters. A lot of home-made ability generation systems out there are really weird and go too far in their "creative uniqueness." I say just use a tried and true systems in the core rule books, like Point Buys and 3d6/4d6, etc. I DM in Living Greyhawk several times a month, and I encounter min/maxing munchkins often. When I do face these pogues, I "power game" right back. I give monsters, NPCs, etc., maximum hit points; make use of feats that provide immense combat leverage; use weapons the PCs use, giving them a taste of their "own medicine." Anyway, just a few thoughts.
atanhel 09-07-04, 10:59 AM	about the organic roll: you may swits one stat with another! it's mega-fun, for to have a wizzard with 14 intel, trust me, it begins to matter at level 10 to have a headband of intellect, just to cast you spells! and people try more crazy stuff to stay alive ( actions points where always well spend)! it creates swasbuckling playen and roleplaying automaticly :D as for hp! they keep what they roll! if they die... it's a part of the game! though luck! ( it sound hard, but it's realy fun, trust me :) )
elecgraystone 09-07-04, 11:26 AM	I'd Also like to say that our group only has three characters all the time. Most adventures are made with 4-6 players in mind. A few extra stats bonuses helps make up the difference! If you are in a group of ten you can afford to be the weakest link! I've been that guy that hangs in the back and acts as an EXP sponge because I was unable to do anything. (no double digit stats/don't hurt me, I'm rich!) Until someone multiclasses, we don't even have the fighter/magic-user/cleric/thief that most games extect! An average character just can't keep up! (we don't pull any punches) We have tried other rolling methods but it only ends up with someone laying down once a battle! (sometimes more!) In the end it all boils down to how you play and how much you change the adventures/fudge rolls. (we try to run as-is) To Greyson, I always extect NPC's to make smart feat choices and I expect key NPC's to be better that average too. To Magagumo, why just use it to wean players from power-gaming? Always play npc's smart! It makes it more enjoyable to have killed a smart capable foe and to be challenged! Work hard and play hard! Don't pull punches unless 100% needed!
Angelion 09-07-04, 11:46 AM	This situation is very like mine. My players are munchkins, concerned with stats over roleplay. This concerns me, as they always seem to search for a better way to improved their pc, and always seem to have the knowledge at hand, In character as out of character. I too have served as a dm for the last 2 years, and recently converted into Eberron. I'm afraid for my players always to outsmart me, and they can be quite insulting when they belive opponents are "dumb", it's not always easy being a dm, they dont respect that. And similiar to your own, the old and more experienced dm that guided us in our earlier days of DnD... is forresting the munchkining, always giving ooc tips during battles, character creation and level up on how to make them better. It's fun to play, but gameplay is sinking slowly each session it feels like. I dont know what to do for my own problem, nor yours :(
elecgraystone 09-07-04, 07:22 PM	Stats and roleplaying are two different things! You need both! Power gaming also has nothing to do with in character knowlege! I find that I have more problems with LOW stats. The barbarian with the IQ of a house plant figures out the riddle. The 1/2 orc with the beauty of the back side of a rhino tries to charm the barmaid. Ect.
Magagumo 09-07-04, 07:26 PM	I couldn't agree more with smart NPcs, elecgreystone :) The real challenge is not playing oozes like mind flayers (i.e. low to no Int creatures should not function on the complex tactical level that some of the brutal, "genius" monsters [mind flayers, outsiders, older dragons, etc.]) :) Of course, if your players don't call foul, play ball! :P
eRaz0r 09-07-04, 07:47 PM	Stats and roleplaying are two different things! You need both! Power gaming also has nothing to do with in character knowlege! I find that I have more problems with LOW stats. The barbarian with the IQ of a house plant figures out the riddle. The 1/2 orc with the beauty of the back side of a rhino tries to charm the barmaid. Ect. You say firstly that you don't like Point Buy because it encourages munchies and powergamers and then say you like high stats and only have problems with low stats. ? I agree, that stats and roleplaying are different things. So why do you have a problem when a player can use point-buy to get the stats they want (within the limits on the number of points)? The biggest problem I have with point buy is not the system of stat acquisition, but rather many of the groups who use it seem to think that 32 or 36 (gasp) are the standard number of points to use. This is the problem, since one needs sacrifice nothing to get an 18 in at least one stat. Our group used the standard 25 points and the highest stat in the group was a 16. Those who use 32+ points are no better (but no worse) than those idiots who roll 4d6 drop lowest, reroll 1s and 2s, in two sets of seven, keeping the best set, and drop the attribute you don't like for a final set of six. And then the DMs complain that the CR system is broken. Morons.
stembolt 09-07-04, 10:48 PM	OK this is the obligatory introduction to my post where I point out you are in the wrong forum and being in the wrong forum you are going to get lots of lousy advice from people who do not know what they are talking about. I wrote that before I read the thread and I was justified. What is wrong with you people? Out of 39 posts about 4 or 5 were good (everyone can pretend I thought their post was good) a few were irrelevant and the other 30 were garbage. But enough about crappy advice, actually I’m not even going to give any advice. Other than go to the appropriate forum “What’s a DM to do?” and “Character Optimization Board” The rest of you should check out those forums as well.
straylance 09-07-04, 11:09 PM	A theory i'm currently working with, in regards to maxed stats, is to simply have higher stats for the mobs without increasing the CR. For instance, take Saber at the end of the Forgotten Forge adventure. The PCs are using a 32 point buy, so they have scores similar to 16,16,14,10,10,10 (min/maxed, of course). Poor Saber, theoretically a CR 3, has 14 12 14 11 12 10 (25 points). So I mess around with his stats, giving him STR 16 DEX 14 CON 14 WIS 12 INT 11 CHA 10; not quite 32 points, but PCs usually have slightly better stats anyway. This actually seems to work, so far. They have twinky stats, but they get worn out about when they should and don't make ridiculous xp (though I always hand out a wee bit more than the DMG recommends). Of course, you can't do the math for every mob you run; I would suggest winging it and making sure they have an extra bump to one or two of their primary stats (don't forget to fix the saves).
ChrisTheS 09-07-04, 11:46 PM	You can always also turn combat into a matter of judgement calls (just continuing to roll the dice secretly so that the players don't realize it), and have the foes hit when you think they should, miss when you think they should, and die when you think they should. This is more work, in general, but it keeps the combat moving quicker because you don't have to keep track of the monster stats. Just don't do it if you have a rules-lawyer in your party, particularly if they've memorized the MM.
GrayS 09-08-04, 07:57 AM	Stat point-buy systems = bad! But I digress. I agree with most posts here that the coin-flipping thing for hit points was a very bad precedent to set, and it's something that your players should be weened off from NOW! My group's house-rule on hit points (above level 1 of course) is: Roll it as normal. But if you don't like the roll, then you can ask the DM to make a roll. However, if you do ask for the DM's roll, then you HAVE to take the result of that roll, regardless of the outcome (better or worse than your original). Statistically, you are better off, but it doesn't always feel like that when both you and the DM roll bad. Example: If you decide that 50% is the cut-off to ask for the DM's roll, then you have a 50/50 chance of getting a reasonable HP increase on your own roll. If that turns out bad and you ask for the DM's roll, then (within the 50% you decided above), you have another 50/50 vchance of getting a good roll. So you have a total of a 75% chance of getting more than 50% hit points at each level-up! BTW, we also use this same basic idea when rolling hit points cured by spells (CLW etc). ;)
bloodwynd 09-08-04, 09:04 AM	(though I always hand out a wee bit more than the DMG recommends) Well for myself I threw away the whole idea a while back. I run a game once every two weekends, so I like to keep the characters going up about a level a session. That means that it should take them about a year to get to epic levels. For me this is the key. I don't think most of my players would enjoy one character for more than a year but anything faster is silly. What sort of speed to the rest of you DMs stick to or do you go with the DMG?
Magagumo 09-08-04, 09:21 AM	I've stuck to base experience (as per DMG) for fights, but give about 1/2 a CR's (i.e. CR=equal to party's level) to good roleplayers per session. We've been going for about 2 yrs now (of which only about 16 months have been playable), and have shot from 3rd level (5 players in party at all times) to 15th level in that time period. I'd say most to all of our sessions contained definitive challenges in combat (I rarely throw in a fight equal or less than their level in CR, generally +1-+2 both to compensate for the 5th player and to make the game fun for all). *Shrug* to each their own, but I've found they advance rather quickly by the rules.
ThatsDM2U 09-08-04, 11:28 AM	Sounds like your having a min/max issue more than a munch issue. Theres basicly 3 ways you can go on this 1. Not use d&d, class/level systems presented in D&D lend themselves to this style of play rather than some of the more classless skill basied systems where you dont care about leveling beacause a new character can still be deadly. 2. Use a differnt d20 system, this allows you to use all those d&d book you have while still pulling away (and in the case of mutants and masterminds very far away) from the class/level system. 3. Live with it, if you learn not to care about the sometimes cheesey d&d things that happen and just have a good time it really is for the best because every system will have somthing you don't like. Personaly I would buy the Advanced Players Guide by White Wolf and borrow someones copy of Mutants and Masterminds so i can steal the character creation system. This gives you a way more grim and gritty style of play along with a point basied character creation (as in everything is points... skills, feats, even your base attack) I personaly plan for my next Eberron campaign to be classes unless you want a prestige class. Thats my 1/50th of a dollar First off, it doesn't matter what game you play (level based or not), min-maxing will always exist. Trust me, been there both as a player and DM/GM/ST. It truely doesn't matter. If the players are going to min-max and Hack and Slash, that's what they will do. Secondly, I used to think that I was too nice to my players (4d6, reroll 1's, drop the low, for HP max at first level, roll after that (you got a one, tough!),max gold at first level), but some of the ideas I have seen flying around here make me wonder. Some of you guys are insane, but if it works for you...
elecgraystone 09-08-04, 03:24 PM	You say firstly that you don't like Point Buy because it encourages munchies and powergamers and then say you like high stats and only have problems with low stats. ? I agree, that stats and roleplaying are different things. So why do you have a problem when a player can use point-buy to get the stats they want (within the limits on the number of points)? The biggest problem I have with point buy is not the system of stat acquisition, but rather many of the groups who use it seem to think that 32 or 36 (gasp) are the standard number of points to use. This is the problem, since one needs sacrifice nothing to get an 18 in at least one stat. Our group used the standard 25 points and the highest stat in the group was a 16. Those who use 32+ points are no better (but no worse) than those idiots who roll 4d6 drop lowest, reroll 1s and 2s, in two sets of seven, keeping the best set, and drop the attribute you don't like for a final set of six. And then the DMs complain that the CR system is broken. Morons. Point system encourages people to dump all there points into one or two good stats and not touch the others. Throw away stats! (IE CHR for fighter, WIS for wizard, INT for sorcerer ect) This leads to the problems Iv'e talked about. (8 base -2 for race=6 stat!) If you roll, the low end of the stats tends to be higher. I, as a gamer and a DM, like players to be equal or better than the NPC's of their level. Better stats tend to let your character do more thing. (but you need roleplaying too!) Most NPC's in adventures ARE NOT made with a point system! No way close! In the end it boils down to how you and your players like to play. Also, I tend to think that the CRs are LOW for a lot of things. (but that's just me)
eRaz0r 09-08-04, 06:04 PM	Point system encourages people to dump all there points into one or two good stats and not touch the others. Throw away stats! (IE CHR for fighter, WIS for wizard, INT for sorcerer ect) This leads to the problems Iv'e talked about. (8 base -2 for race=6 stat!) This is a problem with a system that encourages dump stats, not the stat generator. If you have a game where actual roleplaying occurs, then there are no dump stats. A Fighter/Barbarian needs Wisdom for will saves and Spot checks and Charisma to lead his horde or to buy weapons in town at reasonable prices. In a game where the DM doesn't play to the characters faults, players soon realize they can dump certain stats with impunity. Either the DM needs to play to the flaws of a character, or you need to play a system where each stat is more equalized in the system. For example, GURPS has only 4 stats. Each is pretty important, especially in a fantasy/low tech setting. Strength governs the damage your weapons do (even bows). Dexterity governs your skill at almost every physical thing, IQ for all the mental skills, and Health your ability to resist poisons, take damage etc. You can dump on a couple of them, but the system is such that you don't gain as much by dumping. (GURPS suffers from slightly different problems, in that you could take average ST and HT and pump DX and IQ to get more out of your skill points, but dumping a negative modifier into ST and HT doesn't pay out more than taking an average - furthermore, in high-tech games, ST is pretty useless, since most combat is with firearms and damage is divorced from ST... but this is an illustration.) So in DnD, having 6 stats means you have more opportunity to pull points from one and put them into another. If you take 1 off 3 attributes, that gives only a minor penalty to all three, but gives you +3 more points to play with. Shoving all 3 into one stat gives a much larger benefit than the detriment (theoretically). (Of course, in practise, the even-point jumps means you could end up with a -1 ability penalty in 3 stats (say going from 10 in all 3 to 9) for a net +1 in another (10 to 13), which actually isn't an even trade at all. On the other hand, dropping all those 9's to 8's nets you another 3 points for no sacrifice (still -1) and can push the 10 to 14 with another 2 points to bring it to 15 or to bring another 10 to 12.). However, merely making the rolls random doesn't give you any appreciable benefit in this system, because random generation doesn't solve the problem of dump stats. It just makes it so that you get less control about which numbers you get. Furthermore, I don't know anyone who actually uses the standard stat generation system. They all use a higher point rolling system. This brings the average up, which is why you have a problem with Point Buy. What often happens is that someone will say (note: exaggeration) "We use 10d6, drop 1,2,etc fourteen times till we get what stats we want, and to be fair, we need 400 points in PB" The problem is that giving out those 400 points doesn't give you the same effect as the random system. With standard Point Buy I can leave something at 8 and spend all my points elsewhere. If you have a random system with a higher average, and higher minimum than the standard random generator, then you'll need to change the way PB works, instead of just handing out more points. The solution is not to give out 32 or 36 points, which really just changes the standard deviation instead of raising the average. Instead you either a) raise the baseline from 8 to 9,10 or whatever you want your minimum to be, or b) add a flat +2 (or whatever works) to each stat after they've spent their 25 (or 22) points. Both of these have a flattening effect on the stat curves. The first one makes high stats less likely, though, since they have to pay the increasing prices at 15, 17, 18 as normal. The second variation gives you the ability to get 18's for the price of 16's, which allows for more evenly high stats. This guarantees your lowest stat to be higher. They'll still dump stats, but that's because the system is designed to make it optimal to do so. However, you'll have fewer problems with the extreme highs and lows you get with the lower baseline and just throwing more points into the pot. If you roll, the low end of the stats tends to be higher. Only if you use a high-minimum system. The original system of 3d6 generates a minimum of 3. Even 4d6 drop lowest roll, still has a minimum of 3, but the likelihood of rolling 3 is much less. The 4d6 drop lowest has a higher average. Any other system is probably designed to be higher rolling. (Especially re-roll 1's and 2'). If you're using a system which tends to roll higher than an 8, then you're already pushing the boundaries of the random generation system. Is it any wonder that PB doesn't give you the results you want, since you've tossed out the original random system in favor of a higher rolling system ? I, as a gamer and a DM, like players to be equal or better than the NPC's of their level. Better stats tend to let your character do more thing. (but you need roleplaying too!) Better stats give the players a free ride. If the PC is naturally good at everything, he tends to be quite bland except insofar as he can be roleplayed to the contrary. Some of the most interesting and flavourful characters I've played or seen played have had flaws. Often, these were inspired by a low statistic. Also, I tend to think that the CRs are LOW for a lot of things. (but that's just me) Excellent stats won't save a party who can't work together and don't understand tactics. The effectiveness of inbuilt stats taper off as the characters increase in level.
ThatsDM2U 09-09-04, 10:05 AM	The concept of dump stats is, in my opinion, all in how you look at it (but that is probably because I DM and play to the characters flaws). All the time, I hear my players says they wish their character had a higher INT for more skill points, or more WIS for better rolls, or more CHA so they could stop being screwed on prices, haggling, and social interaction. You see, everything can be overcome and as it was said before, it's all about how you handle it.
stembolt 09-09-04, 10:14 PM	It is entertaining to see people who don’t really understand min/maxing debate it. Linear stat distributions usually work best (25 points yields 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) For a fighter this would usually go, for example, Str, Con, Dex, Wis, Int, Cha. The dump stat in this case is charisma. Because this fighter does not need charisma.(not all fighters don’t need charisma) One of the ongoing arguments of min/max is that regarding arcane casters. Since they are the classes that benefits from throwing everything into one stat.
eRaz0r 09-10-04, 01:16 AM	stembolt : I'm uncertain as to your point.
stembolt 09-10-04, 02:20 AM	Not suprising since I accidentally only posted half of what I wrote. Now if I only had saved what I wrote.
straylance 09-10-04, 02:25 AM	It is entertaining to see people who don’t really understand min/maxing debate it. Stembolt, I'm not sure you're helping any at all.
DreamingDark 09-10-04, 03:33 AM	...I personally think D&D by it's nature promotes some bad roleplaying habits, such as players always expecting encounters to be balanced, being rewarded for combat over roleplaying, reliance on rules and combat grids over imagination, and the mentality of 'us' vs the DM or the module...everything is relative. 2¢, sheik. Sheik's excellent commentary leads me to suggest something a little more radical: What if dice rolling existed only as a method of creating and perpetuating suspense? What if the DM was the only guy who knew the rules and he used his own players' thoughts and comments to help guide the story (er, game)? Basically, the idea is all about character, communication and a seamless form of group storytelling. No ridiculous rules-lawyering or pathetic pleas about "leveling", no complaining when a sensible reality differs from the dictates of a random dice roll. And in addition to an excellent back story (whether paragraph or novella), i find a picture of each character crucial to players getting outside themselves (though I suppose that being an artist suggests that i would find that crucial...) I find that if I give a female player great power it is a burden to her and can add immensely to the story (and the munchkin guys kvetch and moan like crazy). If i give a male player great power they become insufferable pains and just want more. And in most campaigns I've seen, guys predominate. I try to ensure that at least half my players are female. Eberron is a great world for such play, filled with surprises and treachery- Trust and good players are all a DM needs. Optimystical -Lee
Ghorticus 09-10-04, 04:18 AM	Hey guys, I've been toying with an idea for a new point-buy method. For my campaign, I'm going to try a 15 point-buy, with all stats starting at 11 instead of 8, with the costs to increase them as normal. This equates to the equivalent of a 31 point-buy, but it's not as overpowering as a 31 point-buy when all their stats start at 8. For example, here is one of my players's characters using this ability generation method, a warforged fighter: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 9 Starting all the stats at 11 gives the player some incentive to put at least 1 point into each (thus granting them a +1 instead of +0 ability modifier). Any opinions?
bloodwynd 09-10-04, 06:18 AM	What if dice rolling existed only as a method of creating and perpetuating suspense? What if the DM was the only guy who knew the rules and he used his own players' thoughts and comments to help guide the story (er, game)? What do you mean "what if"? :) My players roll the dice and we generally go with the flow. The second the dice get in the way of the "game", the rattling of the little plastic things behind the DMs screen become highly irrelevant. If my characters are not supposed to spot something, I don't care if they all roll natural 20s, they won't see it. If they are supposed to see something, I don't care if they all roll natural 1s, they generally will see it. On the other hand even when it does effect the story line in a way that it should not I occasionally do allow extraordinary roles to change the whole course of the adventure. In Shadows of the Last War the whole adventure ended very differently from how is was intended to end, just due to both the really stange ideas that my party came up with and the amazing amount of "flare" that they carried them out with. This is what D&D and all Roll-playing is about to me....the dice are there for the same reason as the rules...they are there to aid game play, not replace it.
Nilhgualcm Leahcim 09-10-04, 10:50 AM	My GM was sick of everyone complaining about the stats they were getting. "My rolls suck!" "Point Buy doesn't give enough points." BOOHOO! So he made everyone take an 18 in every stat. We played through one session and quit, making new characters using the roll out of the Player's Handbook. Apparently, not only did the characters all get 18s, so did all the monsters. Kobolds are significantly scarier when they have 18s in their statline :mymy: . Cured all the munchkins in one session. LOVED IT! :D
bloodwynd 09-10-04, 11:18 AM	I like I like :schemes:
Alexius D'Cannith 09-10-04, 11:59 AM	a good munchkin can kill without death god stats, Combat Reflexes dex16+ (works sweet with elves, wood elves is just wrong) Hold the Line Power Attack, Greatsword, all quite easy with a fighter, you now have someone who switches say 3-4 points of power attack for all combats and can Attack anyone who charges them FIRST doing 2d6+8+(strx1.5) at lvl4 fighter thats reasonably deadly to most opponents How do you beat this you look through things for what will cause trouble, Do they have reach weapons? if the answer is no then around level 8+ start using Fire Elementals of the Huge and above sizes they have 15ft reach and can stay out of melee range for the party (while still pounding away_ and they have speed60ft Mobility Dodge and Spring attack, combined with over a hundered hp and dr 5/- doing huge amounts a hit thats quite horrific
bloodwynd 09-10-04, 12:03 PM	Want to keep your front line fighters scared, I have just one word for you: Swarms! :schemes: :invasion: All of a sudden they are in major danger and it is up to the spell casters and back-liners to save the day.
Magagumo 09-10-04, 01:35 PM	Personally, I like the 15 point buy off of 11s.. reminds me of how I craft NPCs from monsters (monsters w/ class levels generally should get elite stats, and are created on 15 pb rather than 25, so just drop 5 +2s or +4/+4/+2 or some other permutaion for a fairly good result). I suppose min/maxing isn't the greatest sin a player can commit, but it is wonderfully refreshing when they opt for average well-rounded characters... they tend to be more fun to play with anyways :) [The players & the characters]
sheik 09-10-04, 02:50 PM	What if dice rolling existed only as a method of creating and perpetuating suspense? What if the DM was the only guy who knew the rules and he used his own players' thoughts and comments to help guide the story (er, game)? Basically, the idea is all about character, communication and a seamless form of group storytelling. No ridiculous rules-lawyering or pathetic pleas about "leveling", no complaining when a sensible reality differs from the dictates of a random dice roll. I think you hit on exactly an idea I've been mulling over Lee. So I pose this question to the thread, as an extreme example. If you were a player, how would you feel in this situation: You have a character, but you don't know your character's stats. You don't know your level. You don't know your hit points, feats, or skill ranks, you might not even know your class. But you do know what your character likes, is like, and what he's good at. You are put into a setting and you just have to play. If a combat arrises, the GM(DM) asks you to roll a die, say to hit something, but he doesn't tell you all your bonuses. He describes variables that effect your result such as your footing, the short wall your opponent is trying to use to get in your way, or your size advantage. You may or may not roll your own damage, but he still doesn't tell you the final damage result, he only describes how the blow feels and looks in character, and how your opponent takes it. When you get hit, he doesn't tell you how much damage you take, only how weak or tired you feel, where you are bleeding, and if you are hobbled. Eventually the party learns who is good at dishing it out and taking it, but there are no numberical calculations to figure out how many hits you can take, etc.. The same goes for skills, you can roll, but you don't know the actual bonuses or ranks, only how well you do based on your success rate relative to other players and npcs. How would you feel playing like this? I wonder if I've gotten a bit off track. I think players by nature want to be able to quantify their chances of success before making any decisions. And of course everyone wants to succeed and improve there chances. It would be a lot of work of a DM, but would removing numberical numbers, at least from the players perspective, help them focus on other things? Is munchgin'ing the result of getting lost in the number as a way to 'succeed'? Applying DreamingDark's idea a bit more, why even roll for some skills if your character might logically already know the answer, or if the you are specifically looking for an ambush. Which is going to be more fun for the players that think to look, finding the secret door to the hidden clues and treasure, or missing a plot point because of a couple bad die rolls. A d20 is a huge range for a random roll. There is no bell curve or averaging or even a narrow possible outcome result like some other systems. Unless you are really skilled at something, the chances are success are extremely random or hard to predict. Well now I'm getting even more off track. To end of on a lofty question, all the numbers are important to give us a sense of balance, relative ability, a common ground and perhaps the ability to track achievement. Is their significance more than that? 2¢, dana. (sheik)