Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BoneLord_of_Skullthrone 06-13-06, 06:43 PM	I have been doing a little bit of DnD research into the modern and Dhakaani goblinoid languages. This is all I have so far on vocabulary and structure. I still want to try and learn a bit more so that I can add some more character to my goblinoid PCs and NPCs (I am terrible at making up words). I would be appreciative, If anyone can find some goblin language or offer some other help with the task of deciphering the goblin mysteries. :) This is all I have so far: - Adjectives seem to come after the noun they describe. - Compund words are usually joined by a '. Dhakaan - empire, kingdom (esp. the great goblinoid empire) duur - dirge? or singer? (note similarity to "Doluurh") duur'kala - bards (lit. "dirge singers"; note similarity to "daelker") kala - dirge? or singer? kech - bearer (ex.: Kech Shaarat = Bladebearer) khesh - silent Lhesh Haruuk - specific name? or a title? shaarat - blade, knife, or dagger taarka - wolves volaar - word
Darth Syntax 06-13-06, 07:09 PM	I have actually been constructing the Old Dhaakani language using the words given the varrious eberron books as a guide, but assuming that a language spoken, say at the height of the empire would be rather different than the modern tongue, as 10odd thousand years is longer than recorded human history on earth, and languages do indeed change. General typological info on Old High Dhaakani (OHD) as i imagine it Also called Dhaarukan, OHD is a member of the Khorvairan language phylum, and is native to Khorvaire. It was the official language of the Dhaakani empire, and remains a literary language in Darguun, although the old form is only actively spoken by the Kech Volaar. OHD is primarily synthetic and secondarily aggluntinating. Nouns inflect for case and number, and verbs inflect for tense, aspect, person, and number. These inflections are usually suffixes and are generally semantically transparent. OHD has approximately 40 consonant and 16 vowel phonemes. Khorvairan languages are known for their large phonetic inventories. OHD possesses vowel harmony. The harmony is front-neutral-back with the front vowels (ö, ï, ä) being allowed to combine with each other and with the neutral vowels (e, i, ü, ı) but not with the back vowels (u, o, a, å). This sort of distribution occurs also with the back vowels which may also combine with neutral vowels. Vowel harmony does not apply to compounds which are interpreted as a collection of separate words and thus each word maintains its vowel qualities. Vowel length is contrastive, with there being short, regular, and long vowels. Short and regular vowels are not distinguished in the orthography. Long vowels are generally written as a doubling of the vowel, except long e and long o which are written as ē and ō respectively. There is a phonotactic constraint as to the length of words in OHD. All words must possess at least two mora, which is usually satisfied by either words of more than two syllables, or by a lengthening of the vowels. Simple monosyllabic words such as ‘go’ ‘be’ ‘got’ and the like are impossible in the language. Primary stress is always on the first syllable of the word with secondary stress falling on any additional long vowels. Pitch is present in OHD, which words as well as whole utterances having some degree of pitch. Pitch is independent of stress and has flummoxed more than one non-native speaker. 17 cases in an accusative system, although there are some dialects with 19 which also have some remnants of the old ergative-absolutive system. The common cases are as follows: Nominative, accusative(-um), genitive (-an,-am,-ang), essive (-tek), partitive (-ke), translative (-fo), inessive (-v), elative (-hin), illative (-kit), adessive (-pek), ablative (-or), allative (-mi), abessive (-nur), comitative (-aku), instrumental (-te), locative (-lo, -alo), dative (-o). Simple plurality is usually expressed with the suffix –et. Large scale plurality (expressions like “a whole lot of X”) are usually expressed by the reduplication of the first syllable of the noun. Mass nouns never take the simple plural marker and are generally treated as singular. When referring to discrete amounts of a mass noun, the noun is expressed in the partative cases, marked with –ke. Articles are expressed by prefixes, ne- for definite and o- for indefinite. Mass nouns cannot take an indefinite article affix and are instead expressed in the partative case should indefiniteness need to be expressed. Noun Incorporation is rare in OHD, although it can occur, especially with transitive verbs in the habitual aspect. There are some compound verbs in which the object seems to be incorporated but these are rare. OHD has a remarkable large inventory in the following semantic fields. Emotions, especially those to do with love and hate, death and killing, music, tea and the actions concerning is consumption, wine and wine making, military tactics, legal terms, philosophy, architecture, armor and weapons, metallurgy, social interaction, cuisine, terms for friends and foes, astronomy and astrology, alchemy, and mathematics. OHD only has grammatical gender in its pronoun system. The tense system is exceedingly complex, morphologically encoding not simply the “usual” distinction of past present and future, but rather specific degrees of each of these. The unmarked word order is SOV although VSO and OVS are also common word orders. Relative clauses are marked with a relativisng particle dele and follow the head noun. Those are my general notes to this point on the language, now for some lexical items. This is a work in progress so i may change things as it goes along. Some Kinship Terms daru: father dåru: my father därï: your father duru: 3rd person’s father yäyïn: mother yäyın: my mother yayun: your mother yåyun: 3rd person’s mother tïli: child tïliän: my child tïliäm: your child tïliäng: 3rd person’s child miin: daughter miinän: my daughter miinäm: your daughter miinäng: 3rd person’s daughter ēlo: son ēloan: my son ēloam: your son ēloang: 3rd person’s son koduul: brother koduulan: my brother koduulam: your brother koduulang: 3rd person’s brother sämiil: sister sämiilän: my sister sämiiläm: your sister sämiiläng: 3rd person’s sister some random lexical items kïïlikö: time kïrkk: circle kïïllämö: turn or revolve xaato: pig vesuu: water khaaru: blood noghesh: soul paalu: head haamun: ear tuulo: eye baantel: arm dēm: throat kaare: heart nōlu: tooth huun: tongue ba’aat: hand suōn: nose dhaahar: honor ahlukemar: alchemy kutikkalo: a stew-like dish of braised pork in a rich and spicy red sauce dhuurko: idiot taashan: sharp saule: wine, specifically red wine This is just a rather haphazard sample, and it is part of a larger project of mine to build 1) the culture and history of the Dhaakani for campaign purposes and 2) to create languages for the varrious groups, be they ethnic, national, or racial. Hopefully you will find this somewhat interesting
Darth Syntax 06-13-06, 07:12 PM	By the way, i am fairly sure that Dhaakan is a family name, the name of the bard who somehow founded the empire, which has sense become a cultural term.
OneWinged4ngel 06-13-06, 07:35 PM	Darth Syntax... This is AWESOME! I'm so going to use this now. :D
Darth Syntax 06-13-06, 08:11 PM	If any of you are interested i have more lexical entries for OHD as well as some basics of Qishketr (the name i have given for the shadow marches orc language) as well as some work done on Orjanyi Taalco (the language of the halflings spoken in Gatherhold) All of this has stemed from my desire to add character to the world by creating a lingustic outline for major languages, familes and the like.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-13-06, 11:13 PM	If any of you are interested i have more lexical entries for OHD as well as some basics of Qishketr (the name i have given for the shadow marches orc language) as well as some work done on Orjanyi Taalco (the language of the halflings spoken in Gatherhold) All of this has stemed from my desire to add character to the world by creating a lingustic outline for major languages, familes and the like. INDEED!!! Please do post!! :cheer: :clap:
BoneLord_of_Skullthrone 06-13-06, 11:14 PM	Kick-***! Now all I have to do is figure out how to pronounce all that stuff. :eek: Im embarressed to say that even though I speak english every day, I'm a little bit rusty on the actual rules, and I have no idea how any other language works. :embarrass Some "modern" goblin would be good too, and some orcish (or whatever you called it) would be very interresting. And I'll have to try and find where I read that "Dhakaan" means empire.
OneWinged4ngel 06-13-06, 11:41 PM	INDEED!!! Please do post!! :cheer: :clap: Seconded.
Darth Syntax 06-14-06, 12:34 AM	OHD orthography is based roughly on a combination of english and finnish, i will attempt to provide a useful means of decoding it. Othrographic system: all entries in []'s refer to the IPA (http://www.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/images/ipachart.gif) symbols which represent the sound. Where there is an english sound equivilent i will provide that as best i can. a- [ɑ] the 'ah' sound in father å-[ɒ] a bit the the 'aw' in a New Yorker's pronunciation of 'law' ä-[a/æ] either a fronted version of [ɑ] or the 'a' sound in 'cat' or 'hat' b-[b] just your standard b sound really d-[d] just your standard d sound ð-[ð] the 'th' sound in 'that' e-[e/ɛ] either something like the spanish 'e' sound for [e] or like the 'e' in men for [ɛ] ē-[e:/ɛ:] the long version of the 'e' f-[f] just your average f sound g-[g] the 'g' in get, never as in 'george' ğ-[ɣ] the so-called soft 'g' found in Turkish, a voiced version of the 'ch' in german h-[h] the standard 'h' sound i-[i/ ɪ] the [i] is the 'ee' sound of the vowel in 'feet', [ ɪ] as in 'bit' ï-[y] a fronted version of [u], much like vowel in the french 'tu' j-[dʒ] as in the 'j' in Jon, never a 'y' sound k-[k] just a standark k k'-[k'] the ejective 'k' sort of sounds like spitting a 'k' sound l-[l] the 'l' sound in 'lie' never as in 'lull' m-[m] the standard m n-[n] the standard n o-[o] similer to the french 'o' or the vowel in 'go' ō-[o:] long version of [o] ö-[ɶ/ø] much like the german umlaut vowels, or the swedish vowel written the same way p-[p] the standard p sound q-[q] a bit like a 'k' pronounced further back in the mouth r-[r/ɾ] either the trilled 'r' of italian or spanish, or the tapped 'r' in spanish s-[s] standard s t-[t] standard t þ-[θ] the 'th' sound in 'thing' u-[u/ʊ] the sound of the vowel in 'luke' for [u] or the vowel in look [ʊ] ü-[ʉ/ə] something like the vowel in 'the' v-[v] standard v sound x-[x] the 'ch' sound in the german 'Bach' y-[j] the 'y' sound of 'yes' z-[z] standard 'z' sound Digraphs hl-[ɬ] the "hissing l" found in the welsh as 'll' tl-[tɬ] much like 'hl' only with a 't' sound pronounced at nealy same time, found in Nahuatl (Aztec) zh-[ʒ] the french 'j' of jean also found in genre dh-[ðʰ] a sort of "murmured" or aspirated sounding [ð] ts-[ts] as in 'ritz' ny-[ɳ] the 'n' sound in 'canyon' ng-[ŋ] as the 'ng' in 'sing' (but not the way its said on Long Island) That is what i have worked out for the Latin othography so far. Now for some example sentences as best as i can format them on this forum dashes indicated affixation (prefixes, suffixes that sort of thing) GEN is the genative case LOC is the locative case dēda n-ēlo-an dhavdrak-ar he son-GEN kill-PAST 'he killed my son' yeyada ne-saule-lo bring the-wine-LOC 'bring the wine here!' More random Lexical items from OHD rïlın: house rïrïlın: block of apartments raadat: chariot raraadat: a unit of chariots yaraadat: cart kïle: wheel hlettesh: lead amaaru: riddle eda:1st person singular yōmat: 2nd person singular informal huunge: 2nd person plural informal dēda: 3rd SG F informal dōda: 3rd SG M informal daadan: 3rd SG genderless or of irrelevant gender informal (usually animate) toktan: 3rd SG genderless (usually inanimate) faalü: 3rd PL gender irrelevant or mixed informal faaru: 3rd PL M informal fïïli: 3rd PL F informal dhavdrak: kill goalaan: person baaru: savage, or someone who doesn’t understand OHD barbaaru: original a horde of savages, later a general term (not very perjorative) for a foreigner boghuun: mountain ehlutboghuun: literally a spine of mountains, mountain range ehlut: spine daoya: wealth gwaaron: bard ghēmna: hate komnaa: hate for annoying animate things (mosquitoes for example) gïïlem: hate for one’s enemies of circumstance (such as an opposing army) faalok’: hate for one’s personal enemies who are “evil” (i.e.the murderer of your children) tiilo: romantic, passionate love heliaa: love for one’s fellows, such as the love of “mankind” neme: love for one’s close friends pelann: love of some abstract concept (i.e. wisdom) sömmi: love of an inanimate object (a food for example) sholo: die tuulo: walk laum: sing lalaum: song fääsett: run gwelli: fight naumpo: light guunmei: land olvannu: olive kallavmo: grape
Darth Syntax 06-14-06, 12:52 AM	So, what language would you good people like to see sketched out next? Even if i don't yet have it worked out yet i can probably generate a very quick typological overview in an hour or so, although the finer points of the grammer will be missing. Also, i have divided a lot of the languages which only have 1 listing in Eberron into several languages, sometimes not at all related. the Orc languages are like this, Qishketr is spoken in the Shadow Marches, Luzhun Daigo (ghaash'kala) is spoken in the Demon Wastes, and Maduiyigu (Jhorash'tar) is spoken in the Mror Holds. They not related in any fashion, although Qishketr seems to be distantly related to OHD. I happen to find that the more languages there are the more "real" the world feels to me. So if you really want a language for some village in the middle-of-nowhere that is different, let me know and i might be able to spin something up with your help.
mhacdebhandia 06-14-06, 01:38 AM	Is Qishketr the same language as spoken by the Bonetree tribe in Don Bassingthwaite's novel The Binding Stone, or distinct from it? You might want to add his language - there's a vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation guide in the back of the novel.
KelvanNailo 06-14-06, 01:48 AM	All of this has stemed from my desire to add character to the world by creating a lingustic outline for major languages, familes and the like. considering that's what tolkien did, I'd say it's a great idea and i love that you're sharing.
Darth Syntax 06-14-06, 01:49 AM	I've not read any of the novels so Qishketr is distinct and of my own divising. I may have a look at that language, but who knows. However i have only worked on one dialect of Qishketr (Qet-Kur-Taakk) which is spoken around the Blackwater Lake, and at least in my campaigns there are dozens of languages in the Marches, so the existence of one in the novels dosent rule out the existence of any others. So, thats several inquires about Qishketr, any takers for say Orjanyi Taalco (a halfling language) some other random language? I would would post more on OHD, and i will soon, but i need to figure out its case system a bit better. -- Thanks Kelvan, any input you or any of the others have for the languages would be greatly appreciated.
Darth Syntax 06-14-06, 10:40 PM	I have an update to the pronoun distribution in OHD for the interested. I will probably post the means of conjugating regular verbs in the near future (just as soon as i figure it out myself). Abreviations used NOM: nominative case ACC: accusitive case 1st Person bare stem: edh- singular NOM: eda singular ACC: dhuan Plural NOM: soli Plural ACC: ashan 2nd person informal bare stem: yō- singular NOM: yōmat singular ACC: yōmum Plural NOM: yōli Plural ACC: yōshan 2nd person formal bare stem: aadh- singular NOM: aadhu singular ACC: aazham Plural NOM: paalan Plural ACC: paazhun 3rd person masculine bare stem: dō- singular NOM: dōda singular ACC: dolim Plural NOM: dōshan Plural ACC: dōnu 3rd person feminine bare stem: dē- singular NOM: dēda singular ACC: delim Plural NOM: dēshan Plural ACC: dēnu 3rd person genderless inanimate bare stem: tosh- singular NOM: toktun singular ACC: toktiim Plural NOM: toshan Plural ACC: toshu 3rd person genderless animate bare stem: daadh- singular NOM: daadan singular ACC: daadhun Plural NOM: faalü Plural ACC: faloun Generall speaking, when a pronoun needs to be expressed in some other case the bare stem is used and it takes the appropriate case marker. -- If any of you want to see some words rendered in OHD (preferably a list of related words such as "words for military tactics" or "words concerning philosophy" with some example words from those fields), let me know and i will see what i can do. Also feel free to give me words in this language if you really like a particular word you invented. I would ask that you be mindful of the length restrictions (no monosyllabic words without long vowels) and the vowel harmony i posted about earlier. as always, comments, critisism, and questions are welcome
JawaBoyTex 06-16-06, 05:19 PM	So, thats several inquires about Qishketr, any takers for say Orjanyi Taalco (a halfling language) some other random language? I would would post more on OHD, and i will soon, but i need to figure out its case system a bit better. First off... Great Job! This is all very interesting. I personally have always been interested in Draconic, mostly because of my undying love for Kobolds. But really, do what you would like to do most. I'd be all for some halfling language info as well.
Joni-san 06-16-06, 05:23 PM	Very impressive! I'll have to take a closer look at this to see just how it works in practice. :bow: Bonus points for providing a well made pronounciation guide. Ever so usefull :)
ArcTan 06-16-06, 07:05 PM	I'd actually like to see the Riedran language done, just because I have a hard time figuring out what the few Riedran morphemes we've seen actually correspond to. "Quor Tarai" is "Dreaming Dark", but apparently so is "il-Lavashtar"...
Darth Syntax 06-16-06, 07:13 PM	Thankyou both. For information on the halfling language i am playing with, may i direct your attention to this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=653669) on the creation of languages for eberron. by the way, do any of you know an efficient way of incuding tables on these fora? Update on OHD Verbal Morphology This is the regular conjugation for the verb 'dhav-' kill. 'dhav-' is a class 1 (regular verb) below are lists for the past and the future in the indicative mood and in no particular aspect. Other verbs conjugated in this manner include the following yhōk-: hold vētte-: bend outward (convex) nōmme-: bend inward (concave) ghēmna-: hate komnaa-: hate for annoying animate things (mosquitoes for example) gïïlem-: hate for one’s enemies of circumstance (such as an opposing army) faalok-: hate for one’s personal enemies who are “evil” (i.e.the murderer of your children) tiilo-: romantic, passionate love heliaa-: love for one’s fellows, such as the love of “mankind” neme-: love for one’s close friends pelann-: love of some abstract concept (i.e. wisdom) sömmi-: love of an inanimate object (a food for example) dom-: live sholo-: die laum-: sing remember to apply vowel harmony rules as necessary. the dominant vowels are always in the verb root itself. Past tenses Items listed by number and person. Each row contains items which encode the following (in this order) : General past, Immediate past, Past: previously that day,Past: within a year,Distant past,Legendary past Singular 1.st: dhavetar, dhavetalu, dhavetatol, dhavetanul, dhavetaklu ,dhavetanut 2.nd informal: dhavanar, dhavanatlu, dhavanatol, dhavananul, dhavanaklu, dhavananut, 2.nd formal: dhavunar, dhavunalu, dhavunatol, dhavunanul, dhavunaklu, dhavunanut 3.M: dhavdrakar, dhavdrakalu, dhavdrakatol, dhavdrakanul, dhavdrakaklu, dhavdrakanut 3.F: dhavdrakar, dhavdrakalu, dhavdrakatol, dhavdrakanul, dhavdrakaklu, dhavdrakanut 3.N animate: dhavdrakar, dhavdrakalu, dhavdrakatol, dhavdrakanul, dhavdrakaklu, dhavdrakanut 3.N inanimate: dhavdrakar, dhavdrakalu, dhavdrakatol, dhavdrakanul, dhavdrakaklu, dhavdrakanut plural 1.st: dhavashar, dhavashalu, dhavashatol, dhavashanul, dhavashaklu, dhavashanut 2.nd informal: dhavular, dhavulatlu, dhavulatol, dhavulanul, dhavulaklu, dhavulanut 2.nd formal: dhavutar, dhavutalu, dhavutatol, dhavutanul, dhavutaklu, dhavutanut 3.M: dhavangar, dhavangalu, dhavangatol, dhavanganul, dhavangaklu, dhavanganut 3.F: dhavangar, dhavangalu, dhavangatol, dhavanganul, dhavangaklu, dhavanganut 3.N animate: dhavangar, dhavangalu, dhavangatol, dhavanganul dhavangaklu, dhavanganut 3.N inanimate: dhavangar, dhavangalu, dhavangatol, dhavanganul, dhavangaklu, dhavanganut Future tense set up along the same lines as the past, each line is listed for person, and the order of the words encodes the following tenses (in this order): General future, Immediate future, future: later that day, future: within a year, Distant future,Hypothetical future Singular 1.st: dhavetbel, dhavetbelu, dhavetbanto, dhavetbri, dhavetban, dhavetbanut 2.nd informal: dhavanbel, dhavanbelu, dhavanbanto, dhavanbri, dhavanban, dhavanbanut 2.nd formal: dhavunbel, dhavunbelu, dhavunbanto, dhavunbri, dhavunban, dhavunbanut 3.M: dhavdrakbel, dhavdrakbelu, dhavdrakbanto, dhavdrakbri, dhavdrakban, dhavdrakbanut 3.F: dhavdrakbel, dhavdrakbelu, dhavdrakbanto, dhavdrakbri, dhavdrakban, dhavdrakbanut 3.N animate: dhavdrakbel, dhavdrakbelu, dhavdrakbanto, dhavdrakbri, dhavdrakban, dhavdrakbanut 3.N inanimate: dhavdrakbel, dhavdrakbelu, dhavdrakbanto, dhavdrakbri, dhavdrakban, dhavdrakbanut Plural 1.st: dhavashbel, dhavashbelu, dhavashbanto, dhavashbri, dhavashban, dhavashbanut 2.nd informal: dhavulbel, dhavulbelu, dhavulbanto, dhavulbri, dhavulban, dhavulbanut 2.nd formal: dhavutbel, dhavutbelu, dhavutbanto, dhavutbri, dhavutban, dhavutbanut 3.M: dhavangbel, dhavangbelu, dhavangbanto, dhavangbri, dhavangban, dhavangbanut 3.F: dhavangbel, dhavangbelu, dhavangbatno, dhavangbri, dhavangban, dhavangbanut 3.N animate: dhavangbel, dhavangbelu, dhavangbanto, dhavangbri, dhavangban, dhavangbanut 3.N inanimate: dhavanrbel, dhavangbelu, dhavangbanto, dhavangbri, dhavangban, dhavangbanut some general things about adjectives in OHD As an SOV language OHD is relativly regular, its adjectives preceed the nouns they modify, so the english "a red spider" would be realized as 'jarde otavnaarat' with the indefinite article 'o-' attaching directly to the noun. however if one wanted to say something like 'the red spider' there are two ways of expressing this, each with suble semantic differences 'jarde netavnaarat" is simply 'the red spider' or 'the spider which happens to be red' whereas 'nejardetavnaarat' is something like 'the spider whose redness is a necessary part of its existence' this sort of expression is often used to emphasize the importance of the adjective. Lexical entries from the semantic field of people and mortal sentiant beings gaolaan: person or goblin uhtgaolann: goblin boghuun baarau: bugbear hōðgaolaan: hobgoblin täälin: Halfling (borrowing) bhuka: bhuka (borrowing) zhengaolaan: gnome, literally clever people hashuun: human shenträäd: giant (of Xen’Drik) aaruven: elf (from Arventari, a now extinct culture of sea-fairing elves of my own divisigng) ōrrq: orc qavukhaz: dwarf (borrowing from some old dwarven language, through yimyaataq, a northern goblinoid language) kälben: kobold
RedUncle 06-16-06, 07:20 PM	hey that's really cool... they use some of those letters in Norwegian... Å / å Ø / ø Œ / œ ... radical!!
Darth Syntax 06-16-06, 07:26 PM	I'd actually like to see the Riedran language done, just because I have a hard time figuring out what the few Riedran morphemes we've seen actually correspond to. "Quor Tarai" is "Dreaming Dark", but apparently so is "il-Lavashtar"... I'm fairly sure 'Quor Tari' and 'il-Lavashtar' are Quori words, not riedran per se, although they probably have them in the languages. That being said i have done a small amount of thinking on the varrious human languages (i have done away with the concept of common, and in general the concept of racial languages as a whole, so there are dozens of languages spoken by humans and others, and Riedran, although distantly related to the Galafaran dialects, belongs to a different branch of the language family) What 'i know' (meaning what i have dreamed up) of Riedran is minimal at the moment, other than it is an SVO dominant language (like english) it has complex noun and verbal morphology, probaly 5 or so cases, and has lexical tone (much like the varrious chinese languages and to some extent norwegian). If you want, I would be more than happy to look over the words you can find of seemingly Riedran origin, and we can go from there. As I posted in the the other thread (linked above) I would love to see what you guys think these languages should be like. I certianly don't have a monopoly on language creation, and I enjoy a good discussion.
RedUncle 06-18-06, 06:47 PM	you sound like quite the linguist, Darth Syntax! I too love languages -- which are your favorite two or three Earth languages and why?? and which do you speak fluently?
Darth Syntax 06-18-06, 08:03 PM	Red Uncle, I'm actually primarily mono-lingual, having lived my entire life in the US where leaning of foreign languages is sadly not a priority. However i am conversant in French and can understand a bit of Italian as well as some Norwegian. Now, as to my top three favorite Earth languages that is difficult and i would probably provide you with a totally different list if i responeded to this in a day or so. So here's a list of three languages i find interesting Classical Nahuatl- the language of the Aztec empire: not only do i find the phonology of the language interesting (especially the 'tl' affricate) but i am quite fond of Noun Incorporation (NI) ans nahuatl is an excellent example of this feature. Finnish- although almost any Uralic language could fit on my list, Finnish is the one i know the most about. The massive case system just boggles my mind and the vowel harmony is great (I used both in OHD of course). Arabic - The 'root and pattern' morphology of Arabic (such as the 'ktb' root being used for words related to writing and the like) is an elegant way to organize semantic fields, even thought it does break down in spots. Really, I have yet to come across a language I didn't at least like some feature of features of, although i tend to like synthetic or polysynthetic languages above anylitic languages, but this is probably the old "familiarity breeds contept" thing what with english being more anylitic than anything else . Sorry, no OHD update at the moment as I am not at my own computer currently and dont have access to the grammar. So any ideas for either lexical entires, semantic fields, gramatical features or what have you that any of you would like to see developed, please feel free to let me know.
Joni-san 06-19-06, 06:32 PM	*Snip* Finnish *Snip* I knew there was something familiar there. Anything else you used? :P
Darth Syntax 06-19-06, 07:22 PM	OHD does have some Finnish (and uralic in general) gramatical systems (especially in the use of vast armies of cases) as well as in phonology (the vowel harmony is essentially the same). However Turkish has had a large infuence on OHD, especially in the sound system as well as some gramatical features in relation to the construction of verbs. Nahuatl contributed some of its sounds to OHD the [tɬ] in particular. Sanskrit has also made is presence felt in OHD, especially with retroflex sounds and the rather robust presence of murmmured sounds in the language, usually written as a voiced sound followed by an 'h' (the exeption being 'dh' which 'should be written as 'ðh' but isnt just be confusing. dh is however generally pronounced as a murmmured 'd' sound in the modern languages which are desended from OHD) The pitch system (which occurs on polysyllabic words) is based a bit on Japanese and a bit on the southern slavic languages, so I'm all over the map again. There are smatterings of other languages (usually in the form of a random feature here or there) in the language, for example the tense system is losely based on that of Bamileke-Dschang (a dialect of Yemba in Camaroon), and i am fairly sure there is some Ancient Sumerian floating around in there somewhere. So, anyway, lots of influences, some large, some small, in OHD
Hellcow 06-19-06, 08:03 PM	"Quor Tarai" is "Dreaming Dark", but apparently so is "il-Lavashtar"... You're getting confused, ArcTan. "il-Lashtavar" roughly translates as the Darkness that Dreams, AKA the Dreaming Dark. "Quor Tarai" is the "spirit of the age", the defining force of Dal Quor. The current Quor Tarai is the Dreaming Dark, but Quor Tarai doesn't mean Dreaming Dark. It's the title of a position currently occupied by the DD. And lest it go without saying, impressive work, DS!
Darth Syntax 06-20-06, 02:29 PM	Thanks Hellcow, especially for the clearing-up og the Quori terms. Speaking of those, do you have any idea what the structure of Quori is or anything of that nature?
ChimericalWolf 06-24-06, 07:25 PM	Darth, have you thought about putting up a website for this sort of thing? I know it'd be top of my bookmark list, and I'd love to be able to refer people to that sort of thing...
Darth Syntax 06-24-06, 10:27 PM	ChimericalWolf, I would do a website but i have exactly 0 knowledge of how that sort of thing works. However, if you have any pointers or the like, I would take it under advisment. -- Sorry, no OHD update at the moment. I am still working out the case system, and I have been busy with the real world far too much of late, so its slow going. If any of you would like to see a particular aspect of the language explained (which probably means I go off and create it) just let me know.
ChimericalWolf 06-25-06, 01:18 AM	Well, despite a semester of Web Page Design, I'm pretty useless when it comes to...well, web page design, but you can always go to angelfire or any of the other free services, and they have a pretty basic interface that allows you to stick things where you want them. I wouldn't mind seeing OHD Philosophy, or even just more basic words that I can pepper my goblin's speech with.
Darth Syntax 06-26-06, 03:51 AM	Just a biref look at naming conventions in OHD Names in OHD generally belong to their own class of words as they generally lack independant meaning. The names are listed first by the full name and then followed by a collection of common shortened forms and nicknames(If i have thought of them). These are all personal names, not family names and this is not a complete list. As a general note, Dhaakani goblins pefer names with front and neutral vowels, Bugbears prefer names with back vowels, and hobgoblins do not seem to have a perference one way or the other. Female Names Hlaarai - Hlaari, Ahrri, Ahrritu Yannyone - Yannya, Yanyi, Yonne, Yanyitu Tavaarua – Tavaa, Arua, Vaaru Fentïïlen – Fenti, Tïïlen, Lennö Zheluunam – Zhela, Unam, Luuna Đōdeann – Đōde, Deanntu Tuura – Rala, Tulu, Ralatu, Ralati Gelantuur – Gelan, Lantu, Geli Haalilaru – Haali, Liilu, Aliil Sammpoti – Sampo, Saali, Poti, Yaando – Yaali, Yayaa, Yaadi Tliläämiyän – Tliilä, Äämiy, Miyään, Lääni, Määyähnne – Määyä, Ääne, Ääyä, Sölenni - Sööli, Lēnni, Öölenn Vöinnyämenem – Mene, Vöinnyä, Innyi Tïïräi - Tïïri, Ïïli Merrötli – Merrö, Tlili, Hlödüüre – Düüri, Hlööri Nennäämin – Nēni, Miinö, Yïïhli Ğhääle Biintïre Vellennö Yöyöemvö Öläümmve Gittelök Tliliennö Tuurka Määrit Saalme Riitvah Aaysuune Laluay Þiliannö Male Names Harann – Raan, Aarta, Haalar Saanduruk – Saandu, Uuru, Kaalu Amrit – Mrita, Aamri Yaigyaatan – Gyaata, Yaitann Ghuularakut – Uular, Ghuuli, Aarkut Dhaarğolash – Ğolaa, Laashto, Aarğo Aumuurtole – Aumu, Tole, Uuru Yïïliähn – Yïïli, Liiähn, Liänn Yaando – Aando, Yaan, Aati, Yaalo, Ömhertiic – Örnnte, Hērtto Jaidhuruut – Jaidur, Uurut, Uuru Bailaar – Bailai, Ilaar, Laarko Lhaagash – Lhaash, Shaala, Aagash Tlönnäkt – Tlöön, Äkttö, Hlaarash – Hlaaro, Aarash Kurak’ - Kuuru Jaadaro – Daaro, Jaadar Yöölay - Laytro, Yilen, Nuurinnan Khäälömnır Yääğerïn - Yäärïn Vänyinnärö Vräilenn Ängtïïlenn Sennörı Nenngään Felääntö Yïyïlann Vektööre Määğlirrät Yïïhli Iloann Saakari Tirkkonen Aartakan Aayan Uutlokt Shaalokto Kirkölänn Jaankhut Kōduutan Ðaanduram Kyklōsar Beluuta Väyööllïnär Ruunush -- Enjoy the names. More OHD information to come, I promise.
Atlictoatl 06-28-06, 12:49 PM	ChimericalWolf, I would do a website but i have exactly 0 knowledge of how that sort of thing works. However, if you have any pointers or the like, I would take it under advisment. Darth Syntax, I would recommend contacting Jhonen Olain's Eberron Journal (http://www.coveworld.net/eberron/). If they don't want to host it themselves, they might be able to suggest someone who would. If you needed it, I'd be happy to make some very rudimentary web pages using .txt files you sent to me, but I would not be able to host it myself. You'd get a much better result contacting one of the existing Eberron fan pages out there. Maybe Keith would even be willing to host it on his web page, I don't know. :) As an aside, are you familiar with the game world Tekumel at all (aka Empire of the Petal Throne or Gardasiyal, http://www.tekumel.com/)? It's been around for over 30 years, and was created by a linguist and professor of asian cultures, and features many published languages for the nationalities of the game world -- many players of the game have studied the languages and often communicate in them at conventions and email. It's quite the fleshed-out gameworld!
Darth Syntax 07-01-06, 07:31 PM	Darth Syntax, I would recommend contacting Jhonen Olain's Eberron Journal (http://www.coveworld.net/eberron/). If they don't want to host it themselves, they might be able to suggest someone who would. If you needed it, I'd be happy to make some very rudimentary web pages using .txt files you sent to me, but I would not be able to host it myself. You'd get a much better result contacting one of the existing Eberron fan pages out there. Maybe Keith would even be willing to host it on his web page, I don't know. :) Thanks for the offer. At the moment I don't really feel the language is in a state that warrents posting: its still rather fragmented and the like. That being said, when I knock this thing into a more reasonable form I may take you up on the offer. As an aside, are you familiar with the game world Tekumel at all (aka Empire of the Petal Throne or Gardasiyal, http://www.tekumel.com/)? It's been around for over 30 years, and was created by a linguist and professor of asian cultures, and features many published languages for the nationalities of the game world -- many players of the game have studied the languages and often communicate in them at conventions and email. It's quite the fleshed-out gameworld! I had not heard of Tekumel until you mentioned it. I will definatly be looking into it however as it looks very cool. -- Now then, minor OHD updates for today Question formation in OHD there are several ways of forming basic interogative statments. The first is by the addition of a question particle to an otherwise normal declarative sentence. Although OHD is an SOV language (where one would expect the question particle to fall at the end of the sentence c.f. Japanese) the question particle comes at the beginning of the statment. Nuo viili-et eda tlöön-ke? QUEST. Have-1.s 1.s book-PART ‘can I have the book?’ In most cases questions are formed by promoting the verb to the front of the phrase, as in the above example. In most dialects of OHD the simple act of verb inversion (forming a VSO statment) can be used to create a well formed question yöönn-dräk saule-ke ne-nullo-v be-3.s wine-PART the-bottle-INESS ‘is there some wine in the bottle?’ Some notes on the case system in OHD This is just my initial musings on the OHD case system. It is not complete, nor is it representative of all the varrious functions of the cases. For example, I may 'find' more uses for the ablative case at some point in the future and when or if that happens I will make another post to that effect. Anywho, on with the cases . . . The partative case and the accusative case The notion of telicity is important to both the grammar and the semantics of OHD. Atelic actions, such as studying, talking, and any other verb than can take a temporal oblique, has it object expressed in the partative case. The objects of emotions are also expressed in the partative case. Eda de-ke ghēmna-et 1.s.NOM 3.M.S-PART hate-1.s ‘I hate him’ the partative case is also used when the verb is expressed in the imperfective aspect eda laulin-ke tu-laum-et-ar 1.s song-PART IMPERFECTIVE-sing-1.s-past ‘I was singing some of the song’ or ‘I sang part of the song’ Tentative requests are usually expressed in the partative case as well Nuo viili-et eda tlöön-ke? QUEST. Have-1.s 1.s book-PART ‘can I have the book?’ expresses involving mass nouns are almost always expressed in the partative case nuo yöönn-dräk saule-ke ne-nullo-v QUEST. be-3.s wine-PART the-bottle-INESS ‘is there some wine in the bottle?’ Objects of verbs in the future tense can be expressed in the partitive case, especially when the speaker wishes to express some degree of uncertainty. Tloen-an-bri yōmat ne-tlöön-ke Read-2.s-FUTURE.YEAR 2.s the-book-PART. ‘will you, hypothetically, have read the book within a year?’ the accusative case is used to express telic verbs eda dolim dhav-et-ar 1.sNOM 3S.ACC kill-1.s-PAST ‘I killed him’ however the same sentence with the object in the partattive case is not ungrammatical. Instead the meaning of the utterance changes eda do-ke dhav-et-ar 1s.NOM 3s-PART kill-1s-PAST ‘I tried to kill him’ The Ablative case In OHD the ablative case fills a variety of roles, usually having something to do with the notion of movement away from something. Väyööllïnär, the classical Dhaakani linguist, divided the Ablative case into several different classes based on their particular semantic function 1. The General Ablative The general ablative expresses the meaning “from off of”, “from” or “away” and is generally physical in meaning. The particular meaning of the general ablative is determined by context. Ne-rïlın-ör The-house-ABL ‘from off of the house’ or ‘from the house’ or ‘away from the house’ 2. the Passive ablative passive subjects are usually expressed in the ablative case Haraan-or ne-laulin laum-drak-ar-n Haraan-ABL the-song.NOM sing-3.S-PAST-PARTICIPLE ‘The (whole) song was sung by Haraan’ 3. the ablative of manner the ablative case may be used to express the manner in which a particular action is done. Usually the ablative of manner is used to express abstract or non-physical concepts related to manner. Dēda ne-laulin-ke tu-laum-ar änyïn-ör She.s the-song-PART IMPF-sing-3.s care-ABL ‘she is singing the song with care’ or more literally ‘she, from out of care or love, is singing the song’ the use of the commitative case to express such statements is ungrammatical in OHD *Dēda ne-laulin-ke tu-laum-ar änyïn-äkü *She.s the-song-PART IMPF-sing-3.s care-COM *‘she is singing with care’ The commitative case The committive case has a relatively restricted usage in OHD. It used to express “with” statements that deal with physical objects Määyä sämiilän-äkü tu-tloen-ang Määyä sister.MY-COM IMPF-read-3PL ‘Määyä is reading with my sister’ -- General Notes of near-future updates - The Instrumental case, the dative case, the locative case - A brief discussion of the philosophy (both high and low) of the Dhaakani empire durring the period in which OHD was the spoken language - The rest of the cases - relative clause formation - more random lexical entries As always, comments, critiques, ideas, corrections and the like are welcome.
ArcTan 07-03-06, 06:55 AM	Very, very, very nice. :) My sister is an amateur linguist and knows far more about this sort of thing than I do, but I still get a kick out of seeing things like this -- as you say, it makes the world feel far more real and detailed. It may not seem to matter in an RPG to know that the difference between "I killed him" and "I tried to kill him" is the matter of a case shift in one verb, but it does give the feeling of one of the most basic assumptions we make about life -- language -- being different in different cultures. It also, of course, gives DMs an idea of exactly how to fudge a partially mistranslated utterance from Goblin for a human PC who only poorly speaks the language -- which is, of course, always a great way to introduce dilemmas and plot twists. :) ("So he *killed* him?" "I don't know, maybe he just tried to kill him, I didn't catch it." Unrealistic if Goblin is imagined to be some sort of cipher as English, but the sort of thing that all-too-commonly occurs in hasty translation.) I do very much like, by the way, the implication that certain "Common"/English words have their origin in Dhakaani, like "alchemy" and, most ironically, "barbarian" being the *Dhakaani* word for "foreigner". Brings home the feeling of Dhakaan being the Preexisting Civilization very well. I am, of course, looking forward to the discussion of Dhakaani philosophy and how it relates to language. (I'm guessing that the idea of alliance and enmity, love and hate, affiliance and so forth is central to both the culture and the language?) Anyway, I lost track of this thread and didn't get back to you about the Riedran and Quor languages, but I would be honored to see you try to give that the same treatment as Dhakaan. I agree that Riedran itself should be a distant relative of the human languages of Khorvaire, but peppered with modifications and terms introduced by the quori after the formation of the Riedran Empire. Do you think the radically statist and totalitarian nature of Riedra has an effect on how the language works? Simplifications introduced into the tongue in the name of universalizing it, etc.? Along the same lines, I would imagine Quor itself must be designed for creatures with different vocal apparatus from humans -- the quori we've seen certainly don't have anything like human-like bodies -- and yet the majority of Quori speakers we're likely to encounter, kalashtar and Inspired, are speaking it to each other in human bodies. I picture a language that's been forced into the human vocal register, perhaps in some awkward ways somewhere -- that the preponderance of odd consonant combinations in quori and kalashtar names may be because they're trying to represent unpronounceable sounds. Or something. (ECS says it's a "hissing, guttural language more suited to the alien forms of the quori than their human hosts". I imagine things like the "sh" representing a high-pitched squealing hiss that humans can't make, or the "th" representing a lower-pitched thrumming vibrations that humans similarly can't duplicate.) Anyway, this is the crappy Quor lexicon I have so far: "Quor Tarai" = "Spirit/Dream of the Age" "Dal Quor" = "Plane of Dreams" "Dal" = "Plane/Home/Land" "Quor" = "Spirit/Being/Entity/Dream" (Note: Since the quori live in the Land of Dreams where dream is an eternally existing substance that is only *shaped* and *altered* by dreamers, this is probably why for them, unlike us, the noun "dream" is different from the verb "to dream", since what a dreamer does is shape or alter the already existing dreams.) "Quori" = "Spirit/Dream" (personal) "Tara(i)" = "Age/Paradigm/State-of-Being" "Taratai" = "Age-Turner(?)" (Name, poss. has meaning related to founding of il-Yannah) "Il-Yannah" = "The Great Light" "Il-" = poss. definite article, or "Great" "Yannah" = "Light" or "Great Light" ("Yan" = "Light", "nah" = "Great") "Il-Lashtavar" = "The Dreaming Dark" "Lash" = "To Dream/To Shape/To Define" "Tavar" = "Dark" "Kalashtar" = "Ones Who Shape The Age" (highly speculative) ...And that's all I've got. Quor almost certainly has plenty of simple words for concepts that can only be expressed in human language using very complex, long terms, hence the description of kalashtar as forever using jargon like "kinetics" and "matter" and "ectoplasm" in everyday speech. As for Riedran, we don't have much -- just that "Sarlona" and "Adar" probably mean something in the root language of Riedra, and that the word "Riedra" itself means (IIRC, but I could just be making this up) something like "glorious" or "shining". Whatever it means, it's almost certainly a word constructed by the Inspired to connote a new, rational order rather than a word with old cultural baggage (akin to the constructed name "Pakistan" or "Pure Land" for the new Muslim homeland carved out of India). It'd be interesting to see what the actual word for "Inspired" is, but it seems to be a term that's always translated when referred to in Khorvaire, probably to take advantage of Khorvarians' positive associations for that term.
ChimericalWolf 07-03-06, 03:23 PM	"Kalashtar" = "Ones Who Shape The Age" (highly speculative) No cite, cause I don't have my books handy, but I think Kalashtar might mean "Wandering Dreams." Sure it doesn't fit into quor = dream, but words for snow and all that.
ArcTan 07-03-06, 03:49 PM	It still fits with "Lash" = "To Dream", though. "Lashtar" could be "Dreamer", "Ka" could be "Wandering" or "Lost", and "Va" could be "Dark". The rules for how these particles combine differently in different situations would, of course, be left to a better linguist than I.
Darth Syntax 07-03-06, 03:52 PM	ArcTan, thanks for the in-depth response, exactly the sort of thing I like to see, especially sense you made the comment regarding the semantics of the partative case and the like. Part of my goal for doing this (other than keeping my mind occupied for a bit while I wait for classes to being again and so forth) was to produce a language that was not at all a "Cypher of English" but rather is own construct, complete with a very different semantic understanding of the world. I do very much like, by the way, the implication that certain "Common"/English words have their origin in Dhakaani, like "alchemy" and, most ironically, "barbarian" being the *Dhakaani* word for "foreigner". Brings home the feeling of Dhakaan being the Preexisting Civilization very well. I am, of course, looking forward to the discussion of Dhakaani philosophy and how it relates to language. (I'm guessing that the idea of alliance and enmity, love and hate, affiliance and so forth is central to both the culture and the language?) Dhaakani culture (in my view, as we have very little about the old empire itself) was centered around the concept of "The Wheels of the Law" Nekïkïligetään which has its origins in the ancient Pre-Dhaakani period but was more fully developed by the bard, Dhaakan, in the years before the founding of the empire. The wordgetään is usually rendered as "law" in modern translations, and while this is a perfectly legitimate translation of the word, it leaves behind many of the nuances of the original word. Getään has several related meanings and would be more accuratly translated as 'the law, the universal order, the order of things,the rules of a game, logic, patterns' all of which have a descriptive, rather than a perscriptive meaning. Living according to the "Wheels of the Law" did not necessarily entail obeying the laws of the empire (although it was considered wise) but rather living according to the inherently harmonius and ordered universe. The Dhaakani philosophy emphasized contemplation [/I]tukelanut enu tusanyarut[/I], literally 'thinking and sitting' as well as tïyöönnït enu tusulanut 'being and acting'. Effectivly this produces a philosophy which has elements of stoacism as well as zen buddhism. This was the prevailing philosophy amoung the elite and the educated but had only marginal infulence on the lower classes. I will post more on this when I have a clearer understanding of some of the linguistic means of encoding the philosophy. You are correct in assuming that the concept of alliance and emnity (the old friend and foe dichotomy) is very important to the culture and the language. One's close friends are considered to be family members (both by convention and by leagal definition) and it often happens that property is inhereted by one's friends if one has no living relatives within 2 generations (more on inheretence law may come in the future). As I said, more to come at some point in the future. -- Now, on to reidran. I'll give a crack at it if you would like and see what I can spin up in an hour or so. Some general notes on how I view the various 'human' language in Eberron may be useful here. 1) I do not believe in the notion of 'common'. that said the language spoken by the Late-Galafarans and now the Post-Galafarans was very widespread and most educated or urban (which also includes towns and settlements with access to major trade routes) people in the 5 nations speak one of its many dialects which are generally mutually intelligible (although a mid-upper class Khoravar from Karrlakton is going to have some difficulty undersantding a cat-burglar from Sharn). 2) Rural and isolated areas do not necessarily speak 'Galafaran' much if at all. Places like nothern Karrnath, The Lhaazar, and the Eldeen, are full of dozens of languages, some rather distantly related to 'Galafaran' others of uncertian origin. 3) both Galafaran (which is 'properly' called modern Valdyavath) and Reidran belong the proposed Lan-Gathic language family with Galafaran begin a Lanthic language and Reidran a Gathic language. This makes them related, but the relation is something like the relation of Modern English to Hindi or Farsi (not all that close at all really). 4) ‘Galafaran’ is not English or any other existing language, rather through some process the languages of Eberron have been translated before they were presented to us. and English (although I doubt that ‘Galafaran’ looks much like English at all) was simply used to represent the Galafaran language. All of this was done On to world-internal things Reidran is a Gathic language of the Central-Gathic branch and is a synthetic, fusional language (like latin and many others) with SVO dominant word order. Nouns decline for 6 cases (nominative, accusative, dative, genative, locative, instrumental) and verbs inflect for two tenses (past and non-past, the future tense is formed lexically and through the use of imperfective aspect). Word in Reidran have tone (rising, falling, high, low, neutral) which seems to be a quori influence on the language. that's about all i 'know' about reidran. -- If anyone would like to discuss the outsider languages, let me know. (I find the possibilities inherent in them intriguing) -- More OHD to come, possibly later today
ArcTan 07-03-06, 05:40 PM	Dhaakani culture (in my view, as we have very little about the old empire itself) was centered around the concept of "The Wheels of the Law" Nekïkïligetään which has its origins in the ancient Pre-Dhaakani period but was more fully developed by the bard, Dhaakan, in the years before the founding of the empire. The wordgetään is usually rendered as "law" in modern translations, and while this is a perfectly legitimate translation of the word, it leaves behind many of the nuances of the original word. Getään has several related meanings and would be more accuratly translated as 'the law, the universal order, the order of things,the rules of a game, logic, patterns' all of which have a descriptive, rather than a perscriptive meaning. Living according to the "Wheels of the Law" did not necessarily entail obeying the laws of the empire (although it was considered wise) but rather living according to the inherently harmonius and ordered universe. The Dhaakani philosophy emphasized contemplation [/I]tukelanut enu tusanyarut[/I], literally 'thinking and sitting' as well as tïyöönnït enu tusulanut 'being and acting'. Effectivly this produces a philosophy which has elements of stoacism as well as zen buddhism. This was the prevailing philosophy amoung the elite and the educated but had only marginal infulence on the lower classes. Heh. Your Dhakaani ideas seem to be expanding what was already a tendency in the setting to draw parallels between old Dhakaan and the Far East (KB had already proposed using OA classes like the samurai and ninja for Dhakaan). While, of course, Dhakaan can't be identical to Tang Dynasty China any more than Thrane can be identical to the Papal States, it does seem to be a fun parallel to play with, and just as I tend to imagine the Five Nations as "European-feeling" by default, Dhakaan in my mind is very "Asian-feeling", especially with bits and pieces like the Dhakaani having tea-drinking rituals or the ECS drawing of an orcish rice farmer to add to that. FWIW the Wheels of the Law evoke Chinese Confucianism very strongly in my mind, and many aspects of Dhakaan -- especially the religious agnosticism and the extreme reverence for ancestors and legendary deeds -- seem "Confucian" to me, especially when contrasted with the Five Nations and the "Western" aspects thereof -- Breland's nascent sense of liberal individualism, Thrane's militant religious theocracy, Karrnath's totalitarian statism, etc. Much like imperial China, I can imagine an Empire where the upper classes firmly believed in a very secular, very this-worldly philosophical system while the lower classes maintained folk-religious beliefs in various deities and magic rituals, which would explain the origins of the Goblinoid Pantheon that ascended to importance after the Empire's fall. Now, on to reidran. I'll give a crack at it if you would like and see what I can spin up in an hour or so. Some general notes on how I view the various 'human' language in Eberron may be useful here. 1) I do not believe in the notion of 'common'. that said the language spoken by the Late-Galafarans and now the Post-Galafarans was very widespread and most educated or urban (which also includes towns and settlements with access to major trade routes) people in the 5 nations speak one of its many dialects which are generally mutually intelligible (although a mid-upper class Khoravar from Karrlakton is going to have some difficulty undersantding a cat-burglar from Sharn). Taking a note from Tolkien, this could be represented by "translating" various dialects of late-Galifaran into various English dialects, even to the point of "translating" archaic Galifaran into Anglo-Saxon or somesuch. (From a cultural, rather than linguistic standpoint, Latin might be a better choice to represent how people view the old language of the unified Empire, though.) I guess it's just that I'm too attached to _Planescape_ allowing me to call characters "berks" and "sods". 2) Rural and isolated areas do not necessarily speak 'Galafaran' much if at all. Places like nothern Karrnath, The Lhaazar, and the Eldeen, are full of dozens of languages, some rather distantly related to 'Galafaran' others of uncertian origin. 3) both Galafaran (which is 'properly' called modern Valdyavath) and Reidran belong the proposed Lan-Gathic language family with Galafaran begin a Lanthic language and Reidran a Gathic language. This makes them related, but the relation is something like the relation of Modern English to Hindi or Farsi (not all that close at all really). 4) ‘Galafaran’ is not English or any other existing language, rather through some process the languages of Eberron have been translated before they were presented to us. and English (although I doubt that ‘Galafaran’ looks much like English at all) was simply used to represent the Galafaran language. Right, a la Tolkien. Clearly Riedran and "Common" can't be that close or it wouldn't take ranks in Speak Language to learn Riedran -- my interpretation is that different dialects of a language, which a native speaker of one dialect can pick up in a relatively short time, are umbrellaed under one rank on Speak Language but completely mutually unintelligible languages aren't. I believe the RAW already specify that the Eldeen speak the "Druidic" language family, which could easily simply mean the languages spoken by the human cultural groups of the region, rather than having any special connection to druidic religious practice (except that the same cultural groups that speak the languages tend to have druidic orders as their religious leaders). On to world-internal things Reidran is a Gathic language of the Central-Gathic branch and is a synthetic, fusional language (like latin and many others) with SVO dominant word order. Nouns decline for 6 cases (nominative, accusative, dative, genative, locative, instrumental) and verbs inflect for two tenses (past and non-past, the future tense is formed lexically and through the use of imperfective aspect). Word in Reidran have tone (rising, falling, high, low, neutral) which seems to be a quori influence on the language. that's about all i 'know' about reidran. -- If anyone would like to discuss the outsider languages, let me know. (I find the possibilities inherent in them intriguing) -- More OHD to come, possibly later today I am interested in the Outsider tongues, although much of what is interesting about them comes from the fact that we know almost nothing about them. The "native speakers" of the elemental tongues, for instance, are mostly not intelligent enough to communicate using language on a regular basis, and you seem unlikely to ever hear Ignan unless you talk to a Greater or Elder Elemental. And it's not clear whether these languages are natural languages in the sense that we know or somehow "programmed" into the Outsiders who speak them, since their existence is derived from medieval ideas of languages called Terran, Ignan, Aquan and Aeran that were supposed to be variants of the original "true language" and whose rules could be determined through arcane science, being inherent to the nature of the world. Elementals were originally not merely supposed to speak them but to be commanded by them, in the sense of a magic language that programs their behavior. (This could be incorporated into how elemental binding works in Eberron.) Celestial and Infernal tongues are even more interesting. How do you create a language that inherently sounds good, or evil? Tolkien tried it with Elvish and the Black Speech, true, but... In any case, the implication that angels and demons who speak to humans automatically translate their language using telepathy means that these languages would be even more obscure (even assuming there really is a singular Celestial and singular Infernal language, which is doubtful, especially in Eberron). Quor is the only one we have any sources for, and Quor is the only one where we have evidence of humans being able to use it to communicate in a pronounceable, meaningful way. That's why I'm curious about it, and how it's interacted with, say, the Riedran language, and in what circumstances people like the kalashtar and Inspired use it to communicate with each other rather than using human languages.
Darth Syntax 07-03-06, 07:52 PM	First off, ArcTan, thanks again for the indepth response. Now on to the culture of the Empire. While it is true there are some elements of Imperial China and Tokagawa japan in my view of the old empire, I have also included a healthy dose of some very "western" societies. Philosophicaly and scientificly the Dhaakani are a hybrid of Hellenistic Egypt, (with the emphasis on reason, logic, mathematics as well as on varrious technologies such as clockwork, steam power, optics, and even gunpowder) ancient Rome (truely asountounding feats of architecture, domes, arches, buildings of great height, as well as a complex system of roads and the like.), and classical Athens (philosophy, art and other speculative topics are popular and it is considered 'safe' to freely discuss politics, religion and the like, and these are the usuall topics of casual conversation. Asking how one's family is, or enquiring into someone's activities, the sort of things we consider safe topics, are considered very rude to discuss and are 'dangerous topics'). There are also many aspects of the Ottoman Empire in the Dhaakani, the most noticable being the existence of the Dhazutran who, very much like jannissaries, were elite slave-soldiers who were not only trained in the art of war, but were social and political elites. You refered to the Statism of Karrnath, and i agree with you there, but Karrnath has nothing on the power of the state when compaired with the Empire. Even the Empress (the head of state, supreme arbiter of culture and first philosopher) and the Noble General (the head of the government, commander of the military, and head of all worldly and pragmatic affairs) were subject to the abstraction of the State. The Idea State, in the Dhaakani sense, was one in which the laws and the leaders conformed to universal principles of order and of logic. And, much like a logicians take on the famous Mandate of Heaven, the civil servants, the army, and the populous as a who was charged with the removal of rules who where corrupt and incompitent. Unlike the Mandate of Heaven however, the Dhaakani system was based on the idea that the rulers must adhere to logical and ethical, rather than moral, order. Moral order had very little place in Dhaakani politics, and it was generally seen as a weakness to display compassion in ruling. Instead one placates the people by building civic buildings such as theatres, bath houses, libraries, and so forth, not because one wishes the people happyness, but because happy people are easier to rule and will risk their lives to defend the Empire in the event of a war. Same ends, different motives. And as to tea, yes the Dhaakani drink a lot of tea. Its the social beverage of choice. (coffee didn't come about until the Zil started to roast it in the early pre-galafaran period, and didn't really catch on untill the Karrnathi invented espresso*) The tea-houses of the empire were popular social gathering places where people would come and discuss politics, religion, philosophy and of course local scandals. The tea-house patrons would usually sit a low ring-shaped tables which could comfortably seat 5 to 10 hobgoblins (and more goblins of course) and would eat small tapas-like foods (most were very spicy, although cured olives were also popular) and share pots of tea (tea was a very serious thing, and knowing which tea is good and how to judge them was a sign of social sophistication). Tea was not, however, much of a ceremonial drink. To sum up, I think, the empire has a flavor all its own, using many of the great empires of earth as sources for ideas, but I do not want to limit myself to saying Dhaakai=East Asian and Galafar=Europe. I find it much more fun to start with a handfull of syncratic ideas and develope the culture from there. *I dreamed up the bit about Karrnathi espresso, but it makes sense considereing how cold and damp it must be in Karrnath. -- More OHD linguistics later, I promise. Also perhaps a discussion of Outsider languages (should that be a new thread?)
ArcTan 07-03-06, 08:24 PM	So was Dhakaan himself a military or political leader? Given his(her?) status as a bard and the identification with the Idea State of the Empire, it seems to me Dhakaan is more likely to be a philosopher and culture-hero, akin to the place Confucius or Mencius held in China. Your conception of the Idea State actually sounds a great deal like the Legalist (Han Fei-tzu) school of thought in China -- the actual practices of the Chinese state ended up being a compromise between the Legalists' extreme pragmatism and the Confucians' idealism. (Sorry to get hung up on China, but it's my field of expertise, if I have one.) The Mandate of Heaven was not necessarily a moral mandate in the sense we might think -- it did not directly correspond to the idea of the "divine right of kings", or to a very well-defined sense of a transcendent definition of virtue or morality. Indeed, the ultimate definition of the Mandate of Heaven was pragmatic -- an emperor who was unworthy was an emperor who could not maintain the peace. There were even philosophers who claimed that it was unjust to join a rebellion until the point it became clear the rebellion was going to win, because a rebellion with enough popular support to overthrow the emperor must be more worthy than an emperor who cannot rule competently enough to keep the people satisfied. (Strikes right at the heart of the question of political legitimacy, that one.) When it comes to Karrnath I think of its statism as a relatively recent thing, born of the Last War -- Karrnath still, after all, bears many marks of its feudal heritage, and the union between the Karrnathi warlords against the king is something that could break at any time. It's only from the ground-level that you could call the state truly totalitarian. I would believe that an empire as old as Dhakaan probably had a much more resilient state than exists in Karrnath right now. But, as you say, I don't see Dhakaan as truly "statist" for the same reason that I don't see post-Han-dynasty China as truly statist -- the state is respected for its ability to integrate its rulership with the harmonious whole of the cosmos, not merely for its temporal power. It all fits very well with Dhakaan being a superpowerful LN state, anyway. Any thoughts on the Dhakaani's relationship to things like arcane magic? KB has said that while the Dhakaani's grasp of "technology" was so profound they were able to create artifact-level items, they lacked what we think of as arcane spellcasting almost entirely. Could that be something to do with the ability to express magical concepts in their language, or with the structure of their society, or their philosophy? Also, do *you* think the Goblinoid Pantheon existed in any form prior to the founding of the agnostic Empire, and do you think there was any open conflict between religious movements that openly revered the gods and the agnostic philosophers of Dhakaan? Would the language used to refer to the gods and the supernatural be different in Dhakaan than in Thrane? (I think of the way Hinduism represents the gods or devas as merely a different kind of emanation from humans, for example, vs. the tendency of monotheistic religion to put capital-G God in a category all by Himself and capitalize His pronouns, or similar linguistic signs of reverence.) Thanks again for being interested in this stuff.
Darth Syntax 07-04-06, 02:48 PM	Your conception of the Idea State actually sounds a great deal like the Legalist (Han Fei-tzu) school of thought in China -- the actual practices of the Chinese state ended up being a compromise between the Legalists' extreme pragmatism and the Confucians' idealism. (Sorry to get hung up on China, but it's my field of expertise, if I have one.) No need to appologize for getting hung up on your field of expertise, it's good to have historical input. I myself am conversant in Chinese history, but my real focii are the Italian Renaissance, the Hellenistic period, and the early modern history of western and southern Asia (turkey, persia, india and such like), in addition to linguistics. -- In my version of the history of the empire, Dhaakan was a potent but relatively minor dirge singer from a kingdom called Hankarash. Hankarash covered the area around what is now Lake Brey, and indeed the city of Hankarash itself was built on the south side of the lake (although in later times whole districts of the city were built over the water itself). Now as to Dhaakan herself, whose full name was Hlaarai Dhaakan, she was indeed a great scholar and cultural hero who not only began the legal and cultural reforms that were to result in the Empire, but was to serve, reluctantly, as the first Empress. Much of the history of ‘She who turns the Wheels of the Law’ has fallen into the stuff of myth and legend, so that the true tale of the Bard may never be known. (more on this later if you or any one else is interested) -- It all fits very well with Dhakaan being a superpowerful LN state, anyway. Any thoughts on the Dhakaani's relationship to things like arcane magic? KB has said that while the Dhakaani's grasp of "technology" was so profound they were able to create artifact-level items, they lacked what we think of as arcane spellcasting almost entirely. Could that be something to do with the ability to express magical concepts in their language, or with the structure of their society, or their philosophy? My personal view on this is that the Dhaakani had an enormously advanced material culture, complete with an understanding of scientific matters that far surpassed the Galafarans. Additionaly, artifice and alchemy were practiced widely in the empire. These were considered "good" because they required real intellectual effort and reflected a deep understanding of the materials and process at hand. Arcane magic, as is practiced in the post-galafaran nations, would be considered lazy by the Dhaakani, because there is too much hand-waving and mystery and not enough science and real thought put into it. They did have celestial diviners, but they were as much astronomers as they were diviners in the traditional sense (more like Ptolemy than a traditional soothsayer). The alchemy of the empire was much more advanced that what has sirvived and is practiced today. Alchemy incompased not only the brewing of weird potions, but the creation and manipulation of substances (no conservation of matter or energy here), mechanics, and the creation of alteration of life. Durring the Daelkyr wars the Dhaakani were so pressed for soldiers they actually managed to produce alchemical 'clones' which they could throw at the aberations from Xoriat without fear of losing their more elite troops. Clockwork was also very prevalent in the empire, not only were clocks and general geared mechanisms (such as massive doors that could be opened by a single goblin due to the aid of gears and counterweights) by small analog computers, much like the Antikythera Mechanism (Antikythera Mechanism ) originaly but getting more and more complex as time went on. Their use of magic was primarily augmentative in nature, magical power sources, self-repairing mechanisms, that sort of thing, but much of the real workings were alchemical or mechanical in nature. Again all this comes from the idea that the mind must be activly involved in creation, sure a fireball is impressive, but what if 'we' could reliably make them, using nothing more than special chemicals, waxes, and the like? That would be even more impressive, not to mention cheaper in the long run. And thus the Dhaakani has cannon, gunpowder weapons (about late-mid 19th century level) and all manner of crazy devices dealing with sounds and magnets. -- On the topic of religion, you asked Also, do *you* think the Goblinoid Pantheon existed in any form prior to the founding of the agnostic Empire, and do you think there was any open conflict between religious movements that openly revered the gods and the agnostic philosophers of Dhakaan? Would the language used to refer to the gods and the supernatural be different in Dhakaan than in Thrane? (I think of the way Hinduism represents the gods or devas as merely a different kind of emanation from humans, for example, vs. the tendency of monotheistic religion to put capital-G God in a category all by Himself and capitalize His pronouns, or similar linguistic signs of reverence.) And now, a rambling answer. The Pre-Dhaakani religion was rather complex and populated with a whole host of major and minor gods. some of the more important ones I will list below. Aharannut: god of retribution and justice, later the keeper of the wheels of the law. Patron of the powerless, the wronged, seekers of revenge, judges, and the forgotten. Vhäänyïrräi: god of death, wisdom, knowledge, sorrow, the heavens, and time. Patron of sages, scribes, librarians, prophets, the blind, the grief stricken, ghosts, and dirge singers. Tuuratacha’a: god of the waters, storms, and natural forces. Patron of sailors, fishermen, hunters, the mad, and the drowned. Tïnhläämärı: goddess of contracts, law codes, arguments, and harmonious order. Patron of judges, lawyers, civil servants, and the like. Meluurhu: hermaphroditic god(dess) of hospitality, good fortune, wine, debauchery, food, trechery, and passion. Patron of innkeepers, cooks, revelers, wine-makers, guests, and gluttons. Holudaarmat: god of wheels, drinking glasses, trade, and travel. Patron of caravaners, merchants, traders, cart and wheelwrights, and drunks. Sholiraanma: goddess of protection, the sick, healing, youth, and civic virtue. Patron of children, the sick, the repressed, architects, and healers. Maluurgann: god of war, murder, honor, and blood. Patron of soldiers, generals, honorable murderers, assassins, and heads-men. Viiliyäle: goddess of agriculture, wealth, the sun, beauty, and eloquence. Patron of bards, farmers, merchants, the vain, and diplomats. Dvraato Tuuluk: god of anger, slaughter, decadence, loss, and treachery. Patron of traitors and of those betrayed, the dishonored dead, lecherous, warriors, and those displaced by war. Chaalor Gaann: god of fire, funerals, joy in the face of sadness, old age, wisdom, sand, and air. Patron of recently dead, mourners, the elderly, sages, and travelers in the desert. Anukaule: god of the sky, power, storms, procreation, politics, hospitality, and the blood-lines. Patron of fathers, kings, hosts, property holders, protectors, families. Magdaaryade: goddess of rain, purification, the stars, music, and riddles. Patron of tale-tellers, musicians, astrologers, and dancers. The Khaalkuukaro: the nine goddess of blood-vengeance, madness, pain, hunger, retribution, and the night. Patrons of those seeking revenge, the insane, the ravenous, and the unavenged dead. Now, the Dhaakani conception of gods would be much closer to the general poly-theistic understanding of god-hood. The gods were varriously understood to be incarnations of concepts, or archtypes, as elevated mortals , or as amalgamated entietes created out of the souls of the departed. Pre-Dhaakani religion was 'descriptive' in nature, rather than 'prescriptive', you honor the gods and make the sacrifices and say the prayers to avoid misfortune here on Eberron, not to appeas the creator or any such thing. When Dhaakan began her writings and her philosophy caught on, she never publicly denied the gods, she was simply unconcerned with them. They, if they existed, were part of the universal order to be sure, but the proper thought of mortals was to be directed to mortal affairs. This idea has echos of stoacism, buddhism, confucianism, and several other schools of thought. So while some accused her and her school of impiety (there were some problems early on but i havent yet fleshed them out), generally people went on worshiping the old gods and spirits. They still left food out on the shortests day of the year to appease the spirits, and so on. Actually, I think the average Dhaakani was rather superstitious and worried about spirits and demons. The fact that fey and demons are real added to this. Linguisticly the Dhaakani had lots of words for gods and other supernatural beings. Immortal beings and Outsiders Yruuğanluo: the Daan, from the compound yruughanluo “the sorrowful ones” possibly from the generally sorrowful and knowing expression of the Daan, although it could also be an imitation of the sound of the Daanvic language.* noure: god uhtnoure: small god yanoure: unimportant or marginal god, sometimes a forgotten god Daelkyr: originally a trickster god among the Yimyaataq, later the name for the invaders from Xoriat Anuangaktule: angles Ghētuan: Archon Ehledlile: eladrin Angarush: fiend hōðangarush: devils Yaangarush: demons Zhenangarush: yugoloth The Official Agnosticism of the empire did get them into trouble with some of their northern neighbors (in what is now Karrnath and very northern Cyre), the Yimyataaq and related peoples. They were also goblinoid people (a mix of the usual three) but they had maintained (a vastly different) polytheistic religion and considered their southern Imperial neighbors to be impious, imoral , drunks (the Dhaakani consumed lots of wine, but usually only with meals and seldom to the point of drunkeness. The Yimyataaq simply interpreated 'drink wine everyday' as 'drunk everyday'). * The Daan are a creation of mine, as I felt that there needed to be another exemplar of lawful-neutral, to represent the idea scholars and logicians as well as abstract order, to counter the leagalism and formalism of the formians. -- Well, that's it for the moment, more to come I assure you.
Darth Syntax 07-04-06, 04:21 PM	Minor update on the OHD case system. The Dative Case The dative case usually marks the indirect object of the verb Määyä delim venyar-drak ne-tlöön-ö Määyä she.ACC give-3s the-book-DAT ‘Määyä gives her the book’ Benefactive roles are not normally marked with the dative case, but in northern dialects of OHD this is grammatical and probably comes about by influence of Yimyataaq Ele tlöön yöönn-dräk Haraan-o This book be-3s Haraan-DAT ‘This is a book for Haraan’ In the standard dialect of OHD a benefactive relationship can be represented in several ways. This most common is by Ele tlöön anyarak-or Haraan ashan This book benefit-ABL Harann for ‘This is a book for Haraan’ The Locative case In OHD the locative case has a relatively reduced function, having been mostly supplanted by the essive, inessive, and the adessive cases. Several dialects of OHD have lost the locative altogether, but in the standard dialect it carries the function of encoding notions of “here” and “there” Yeyada ne-saule-lo Bring the-wine-LOC ‘bring the wine here’ yeyada ne-saule-alo bring the-wine-LOC ‘bring the wine (over) there’ The Inessive case The inessive case carries the general meaning of “in” or “inside” rïlın-v house-INESS ‘In the house’ nulo-v bottle-INESS ‘In the bottle’ More to come later. Look forward to the Abessive and Adessive cases as well as a thrilling discussion of negation. All this and more later on Darth Syntax' wonderful world of Eberron linguistics. -Brought to you by the Library of Korranberg, and the support of readers like you-
ArcTan 07-04-06, 04:34 PM	My personal view on this is that the Dhaakani had an enormously advanced material culture, complete with an understanding of scientific matters that far surpassed the Galafarans. Additionaly, artifice and alchemy were practiced widely in the empire. These were considered "good" because they required real intellectual effort and reflected a deep understanding of the materials and process at hand. Arcane magic, as is practiced in the post-galafaran nations, would be considered lazy by the Dhaakani, because there is too much hand-waving and mystery and not enough science and real thought put into it. They did have celestial diviners, but they were as much astronomers as they were diviners in the traditional sense (more like Ptolemy than a traditional soothsayer). The alchemy of the empire was much more advanced that what has sirvived and is practiced today. Alchemy incompased not only the brewing of weird potions, but the creation and manipulation of substances (no conservation of matter or energy here), mechanics, and the creation of alteration of life. Durring the Daelkyr wars the Dhaakani were so pressed for soldiers they actually managed to produce alchemical 'clones' which they could throw at the aberations from Xoriat without fear of losing their more elite troops. Clockwork was also very prevalent in the empire, not only were clocks and general geared mechanisms (such as massive doors that could be opened by a single goblin due to the aid of gears and counterweights) by small analog computers, much like the Antikythera Mechanism (Antikythera Mechanism ) originaly but getting more and more complex as time went on. Hrm. My gut reaction is to think you might be verging on the level of making Dhakaan too powerful, but I haven't really thought about it yet. The "clones" sound very close to warforged technology in functional scope if not necessarily in the mechanism of implementation, and the modern Cannith artificers were only able to create WF at all thanks to schemas stolen from old Xen'drik. And I do think that, great as Dhakaan was, they're still far behind the power wielded by the ancient giants. Then again, I would find it hard to believe the goblinoids themselves didn't send any expeditions to Xen'drik. Their use of magic was primarily augmentative in nature, magical power sources, self-repairing mechanisms, that sort of thing, but much of the real workings were alchemical or mechanical in nature. Again all this comes from the idea that the mind must be activly involved in creation, sure a fireball is impressive, but what if 'we' could reliably make them, using nothing more than special chemicals, waxes, and the like? That would be even more impressive, not to mention cheaper in the long run. And thus the Dhaakani has cannon, gunpowder weapons (about late-mid 19th century level) and all manner of crazy devices dealing with sounds and magnets. Well, a lot of their artifacts still seem suited to medieval-style warfare -- plate mail, swords, etc., so they can't have become dependent on firearms the way real late-19th-century civilizations did. I suppose firearms and similar complex structures are less likely to survive the passage of millennia than swords and armor, but it'd still be interesting to see why these kinds of artifacts haven't been recovered by anyone yet, or preserved within the caves of the Dhakaan clans. *snip* (Good stuff on the gods, and on the Yimyataaq) * The Daan are a creation of mine, as I felt that there needed to be another exemplar of lawful-neutral, to represent the idea scholars and logicians as well as abstract order, to counter the leagalism and formalism of the formians. Well, since Daanvi is stated to have axiomatic-templated creatures of all kinds as well as, specifically, formians and inevitables, it's not too big a stretch to assume there are civilizations of axiomatic elves, goblins, humans, etc. It'd be interesting if the Daan exist as an axiomatic goblinoid civilization that served as a spiritual model for the Idea State. Are your goblinoid deities modelled on the Sovereign Host and Dark Six? Or do you consider that a separate development? Sadly, yugoloths don't, IIRC, exist in the Eberron planes as written, but they would fit nicely into Shavarath as a smaller, mercenary army that constantly shifts allegiances between the demons and devils a la their role in Planescape. What about the Dhakaani's potential interactions with or knowledge of the rakshasa and the rajahs (who are, after all, a much bigger deal on Eberron than the extraplanar fiends)? Thanks again for the excellent writeups.
Joni-san 07-04-06, 05:05 PM	I want to know more about the first Empress. I also like your ideas of Dhakaani culture in general. I think I'm going to steal some :P
Darth Syntax 07-04-06, 05:29 PM	According to the ECS the 'loths are on Mabar -- As the gunpowder and why it has not survived: The height of the gunpowder weaponry occured during the the centuries before the Daelkyr wars and the empire was dealing primarily with the 'Barbarian' nations to the north and west (the empire itself covered what is now breland, zilargo, darguun, southern aundair, southern and central thrane, and souther and central cyre) and the gunpowder weapons were very effective against these mortal enemies. Also the Dhaakani did not have a monopoly on the technology, the Yimyataaq made use of some cannon, and the Niikata Vendrak (the people native to what would now be northern Aundair) were also rather keen on the explosive front. Most of the Dhaakani gunpowder weapons were designed for either personal defense (short range pistols and the like) hunting, or as seige engines. Use of large scale gunpowerd troops was common, but mostly as a pinning tactic rather than as the main thrust the the attack. To kill one's enemy with fire are shot, well, its artless, and you do not get the joy of seeing the fear in the eyes of the defeated. When the Daelkyr wars came upon the empire it was discovered that Byeshk was the most effective material to fight the invaders. However, byeshk makes poor bullets and so a lot of the more advanced weaponry was scrapped in favor of bladed weapons. After the Daelkyr wars the empire went into a long slow decline, and much of the vigor of the era of the Nine Golden Generals (truly a golden age, a period of high culture and political stability) was lost, and with it went the fabulous clockwork, the gunpowder, the advanced alchemy, and even much of the art and music so central to the stability of the empire. With the high culture gone, and the Wheels of the Law seeming broken, the empire fell apart. As to the 'alchemical clones' they were only dimly aware and tended to behave a bit like disoriented constructs. They are more similer to the Karrnathi undead than to the warforged, but because I thought myself into a corner (the Dhaakani loath the undead as well as making a point of cremating all bodies) undead were not an option, but homunculi (in the more original sense) were possible given the alchemical nature of Dhaakani science. -- Side Track on the Daan, Daanvi et al. The Daan are a variety of outsider (a family group if you will, like the archons, the tanar'ri and so forth) they are nominally the exemplars of abstract order. They are divided into 13 orders , each of which represents a different abstract such as music, mathematics, language, time, and so forth. As to axiomatic populations on Daanvi, I have come to the conculsion that axiomatic 'normals' such as mortal beings and the like are not native to Daanvi itself but are the product of manifest zones. They often make their way there, but the flora and fauna of Daanvi is a thing unto itself. The Daan themselves vary in apperence based upon what order they are a part of, but most have faces that look a bit like a cross between akhenaten here (http://whoolery.com/images/egypt_2004/luxor/luxor%20museum%20akhenaten%20bust.jpg) and a chinese dragon (the moustache-like facial tendrils really), and many arms in the manner of some depictions of Shiva. Currently there are 3 Daan known to exist on Eberron. the first is a fallen Daan (it became true neutral) and it teaches planar mathematics and the like at Morgrave. The second is also a fallen Daan (became LE) and is in the service of the lords of dust. And the Third retains its Daanvic nature and inhabits the space within the extra-dimentional rooms at the library of Korrenberg. I may write more about the Daan, and the planes in general later on. (probably in a different thread) -- The Pre-Dhaakani Dieties No, they are not really modeled on the Host per-se, but it would be possible to interpret say Vhäänyïrräi, as a LN combination of Aureon and the Keeper. There are some resonences, but the Host-concept seems to me to be a product of Galafaran syncratism "Oh you have a god of knowledge do you? Well so do we, it must be the same god and sense we're incharge here we'll call him Aureon." Also, the dieties worshiped by the Pre-Dhaakani, were completly different from the gods of the Yimyataaq. The Yimyataaq having a vastly different language and culture from the Dhaakani. -- The rhakshasas, in the Dhaakani understanding, were generally seen as evil spirits of the world (not wholly inacurate) to be placated or ignored. -- More on all of this later hopefully. And thankyou ArcTan for your replies and your interest in the topics (where ever they seem to wander).
Lord Psynister 07-04-06, 05:48 PM	Anybody have all of this stuff slapped together in a single file (email-friendly) as of yet?
ArcTan 07-04-06, 05:58 PM	According to the ECS the 'loths are on Mabar Ah, you're right. Mea culpa. As the gunpowder and why it has not survived: The height of the gunpowder weaponry occured during the the centuries before the Daelkyr wars and the empire was dealing primarily with the 'Barbarian' nations to the north and west (the empire itself covered what is now breland, zilargo, darguun, southern aundair, southern and central thrane, and souther and central cyre) and the gunpowder weapons were very effective against these mortal enemies. Also the Dhaakani did not have a monopoly on the technology, the Yimyataaq made use of some cannon, and the Niikata Vendrak (the people native to what would now be northern Aundair) were also rather keen on the explosive front. Most of the Dhaakani gunpowder weapons were designed for either personal defense (short range pistols and the like) hunting, or as seige engines. Use of large scale gunpowerd troops was common, but mostly as a pinning tactic rather than as the main thrust the the attack. To kill one's enemy with fire are shot, well, its artless, and you do not get the joy of seeing the fear in the eyes of the defeated. When the Daelkyr wars came upon the empire it was discovered that Byeshk was the most effective material to fight the invaders. However, byeshk makes poor bullets and so a lot of the more advanced weaponry was scrapped in favor of bladed weapons. After the Daelkyr wars the empire went into a long slow decline, and much of the vigor of the era of the Nine Golden Generals (truly a golden age, a period of high culture and political stability) was lost, and with it went the fabulous clockwork, the gunpowder, the advanced alchemy, and even much of the art and music so central to the stability of the empire. With the high culture gone, and the Wheels of the Law seeming broken, the empire fell apart. Logical, and nice. As to the 'alchemical clones' they were only dimly aware and tended to behave a bit like disoriented constructs. They are more similer to the Karrnathi undead than to the warforged, but because I thought myself into a corner (the Dhaakani loath the undead as well as making a point of cremating all bodies) undead were not an option, but homunculi (in the more original sense) were possible given the alchemical nature of Dhaakani science. Hmm. Making a true alchemical clone-type homunculus in this sense would be an interesting hook for a campaign, if you could make creatures who look just like living people but are mindless and easily controlled (as opposed to undead, who tend to be identifiable by sight). Currently there are 3 Daan known to exist on Eberron. the first is a fallen Daan (it became true neutral) and it teaches planar mathematics and the like at Morgrave. The second is also a fallen Daan (became LE) and is in the service of the lords of dust. And the Third retains its Daanvic nature and inhabits the space within the extra-dimentional rooms at the library of Korrenberg. Cool. Does the fallen Daan live in its true form, or hide in a human identity? No, they are not really modeled on the Host per-se, but it would be possible to interpret say Vhäänyïrräi, as a LN combination of Aureon and the Keeper. There are some resonences, but the Host-concept seems to me to be a product of Galafaran syncratism "Oh you have a god of knowledge do you? Well so do we, it must be the same god and sense we're incharge here we'll call him Aureon." True, although KB has said this isn't simply cultural imperialism -- that there are astonishing, coincidental similarities between human gods, goblinoid gods, and Zil gods, which is why theologians of the Host can make a decent argument for these entities having some true metaphysical existence. PGtE says that the Dark Six actually didn't exist until the humans discovered the goblinoids -- that the gods they could identify as their own native gods they took to be versions of the Sovereign Host, and the gods they couldn't they identified as "evil" gods. Also, the dieties worshiped by the Pre-Dhaakani, were completly different from the gods of the Yimyataaq. The Yimyataaq having a vastly different language and culture from the Dhaakani. -- The rhakshasas, in the Dhaakani understanding, were generally seen as evil spirits of the world (not wholly inacurate) to be placated or ignored. -- More on all of this later hopefully. And thankyou ArcTan for your replies and your interest in the topics (where ever they seem to wander). You're welcome, and thank *you*.
taski 07-05-06, 04:03 PM	I'd be happy to make a PDF of this, if anyone's interested and Darth Syntax is okay with it.
Hellcow 07-05-06, 05:17 PM	PGtE says that the Dark Six actually didn't exist until the humans discovered the goblinoids -- that the gods they could identify as their own native gods they took to be versions of the Sovereign Host, and the gods they couldn't they identified as "evil" gods. As a side note, I consider this to be a flawed statement, and one which I do not believe will be supported in Faiths of Eberron. In my opinion, the deities of the Dark Six have always been closely tied to the Sovereign Host. Looking to the traditional mythology of the Host, the Shadow is Aureon's shadow; the Mockery is related to Dol Dorn and Dol Arrah; Arawai is the mother of the Fury; and the Keeper is Kol Korran's brother. And on the point of cultural imperialism, variations of the Host and Six have been found as far back as Xen'drik; giant temples have been found with clear variations of the modern deities, though just as with the orcs of the Shadow Marches and the Talenta Plains, each culture has its own twist. As ArcTan says, it's not simply that the priests of the Host say "Trade in your god for ours"... it's that the two really are quite close to begin with. The giants of Xen'drik never worshipped Aureon... but they worshiped Ouralon, the "Lord of Light and Law", who smote the Qabalrin worshippers of the Shadow. And again, it is this degree of symmetry that many philosophers use to claim that the gods MUST exist. The concept is that you can worship whatever you want. You can worship a shoe. But if you worship a war god with a long sword and a name that sounds SOMETHING like "Dol Dorn" - Dolador, Duldyrn, what have you - your prayers seem more likely to be answered. In any case, this will be addressed in Faiths of Eberron. I haven't had time to review the entire thread - this particular bit just popped out at me sifting through my inbox - but it certainly looks like you're doing good work, DS. Keep it up!
Hellcow 07-05-06, 05:34 PM	Maybe Keith would even be willing to host it on his web page, I don't know. Legally, I'm not really allowed to post Eberron material on my website, whether it's mine or someone elses; the best I can get away with is an NPC or something like the Sharn index, and that only with special permission. And, of course, while I am impressed with the level of work DS has done throughout the thread and certainly encourage people to use it in their campaigns, I do have different ideas about culture, which you may see if a Dhakaani sourcebook hits print. The irony is that I can't simply post, say, a Dragonshard on my views of Dhakaani culture, because of the restrictions on those articles. I do think that DS has done excellent work here, and I think that having it as a PDF on one of the other sites mentioned is a great idea. (Though with that said, understand that I have no legal authority when it comes to anything Eberron!) And as to tea, yes the Dhaakani drink a lot of tea. Its the social beverage of choice. (coffee didn't come about until the Zil started to roast it in the early pre-galafaran period...) As a minor note, per my novels the Eberron herbs-boiled-in-hot-water beverage is actually called tal... while per the Zil Dragonshards, the Zil beverage of choice is maleko, water infused with flavor through use of prestidigitation, allowing the creation of subtle flavors that cannot actually be found in nature. This reflects the gnome's innate talent for prestidigitation and their strong sense of smell and taste, allowing them to appreciate flavors that other races can barely taste. If I was to use coffee in the game, I'd probably give it to the Shadow Marchers. But that's just me. ;) And hey, even if the people of today drink tal, it's possible the Dhakaani called it tea.
Darth Syntax 07-05-06, 05:57 PM	PGtE says that the Dark Six actually didn't exist until the humans discovered the goblinoids -- that the gods they could identify as their own native gods they took to be versions of the Sovereign Host, and the gods they couldn't they identified as "evil" gods. There are several problems with this theory, when one looks at the theology and philosophy from a world-internal standpoint. The first is that most of the gods of the Dark Six are negative analogues to varrious Host dieties. The Shadow = Aureon The Keeper = Kol Korran The Devouerer = Arawai The Furry = Olladra The Mockery = Either of the Dol's The Traveler is the only one that dosent line up, and the Traveler is odd any way and seems to have been incorporated into the Dark Six simply because it did not fit anywhere else. The Negative aspect theory actually opens up some interesting possibilities concerning the world, religion, politics and so for. *Warning, what follows is true only in my version of the world* When the Lanthic sea people came to Khorvaire along with Lhazzar they brought with them their own religion, which was a complex polytheism in which the gods were neither benevolent nor inherently cruel, they had aspects both good and evil. The Lanthic people originally stuck to the coasts but as they pushed inward the came into conflict with the native goblinoids, but these were mostly conflicts over land and other mundane things. As more humans migrated from Sarlona they began to push the goblinoid people further to the south. Some of the later migrants (a Gathic speaking people who migrated into what was once the heart of the old Dhaakani Empire) actually developed a syncratic culture with the native people which resulted in a period of human-goblinoid cooperation in what is now southern Thrane and Breland. In the north (where the weather is worse and the resources more scarce) the human-goblinoid conflicts continued until they came to a head around the time of Karrn the Conqueror. Karrn, being a savy as well as brutal leader, saw in the on-going conflict a chance to create a definative "other" enemy and unite the human population. He, and some of his underlings began to demonize the goblinoids, not just as rivals in relativly mundane conflicts, but as sub-sentiant evil savages who worshiped strange and evil gods. The tactic was remarkably effective and the humans returned to fighting the goblinoids with renewed vigor. Although Karrn was not sucsessful in his wars, he did leave the idea that goblinoid = evil, on the Karrnathi and related people. Durring the period between Karrn and Galafar, a marked shift occurs in the old Lanthic religion. The gods, such as the 'Ur-Aureon' become to be understood not as a single being with positive and negative aspects but as two seperate entities, one positive, one negative. The negative aspects of the gods not only incorporate the old lanthic practicies and beliefs, they also borrow haphazardly from the varrious goblinoid gods (mostly these would have been the gods decended from Yimyataaq religion). These new 'Dark Gods' become conflated with the old goblinoid religions and this mentality is shared by Galafar (he grew up with it and all) and so the religion of the Host and the Six which he understood became the officially sactioned religion of his empire. Thus the Host and the Six come down to the modern age. Now, it is true that the Host and the Six do fill some very broad roles in mythology and the like, and as such gods similer to them would be expected all over, but I think its more of the psychological needs to the people (what ever species) as well as the influence of the varrious planar and supernatural events that shape the conceptions of the gods. It really is not much of a strech to assume that many cultures would come up with a godess who bears enough similarity to Arawai to be seen as different version of the same diety. The Greek godess Demeter is effectivly Arawai, so its not much of a stretch to assume the female god of agriculture and fertility is a fairly common concept. -- The Daan once again 'The One who Sorrowfuly Sings in Silence' or more acuratly 'The Becoming that is whithin the Weeping Singing that has not Sounded'* , the Daan who teaches as Morgrave appears in a form very similer to its original form. It is about 3 meters in height, four armed and dresses in strange robes with whorling designs. 'Silence' as it is known by many, is an expert both on matters of planar structure and planar politics, as well as being a phenominal musician. As to the 'evil' Daan i know nothing other than it exists and it desires to remake the world according to its own perverse sense of order And finally 'The Recursive Windings of the Undending Book' whose more 'accurate' name is inherently unwritable due to the fact that it is infinite, who lives in the Libraray of Korranburg, appears as either an ancient gnome always carrying an ornate lantern, or in its true, many armed form. * The language of the Daan has no nouns, and instead forms noun-like elements out of verbs. The English presented here is but a pale reflection of the Daanvic language. -- I want to know more about the first Empress. I also like your ideas of Dhakaani culture in general. I think I'm going to steal some First, I am glad you like my interpretation of the Dhaakani culture. Secondly, As to Hlaarai Dhaakani, more shall be written soon, once I have my rambling notes spun into a more useable shape. I can however provide you with some information. What follows are some notes on Hlaarai Dhaakan's early history, sorry for the disjoint nature of it, but I am culling from several documents i have produced over the last few months. In the final years of the reign of Broken Bells (the great wars that tore apart southern-central and south-western Khorvaire, named for the saying ‘All kings who the lust of blood follow, the breakers of bells are’) the king of Hankarash, in order to prove the potency of his army, sent them to capture the city of Nelinntö. The city itself was relatively unimportant from a strategic point of view, but the Hankarashi king had failed time and time again to take the city and so it was a thorn in his side. To accomplish his goal, the greatest army ever yet seen in the kingdom was assembled, fully four million soldiers, many were conscripts and slaves forced to fight for the twisted desires of the king. And so, the great army was sent off to satisfy the vanity of the king. Durring the siege of Nelinntö, the favored wife of the king of Hankarash dies giving birth to the child who was supposed to inherit the throne. Wracked with grief the king orders that the finest Dirge Singers in the kingdom be brought before him to sing in honor of the dead queen. Hlaarai Dhaakan is among the Dirge Dingers brought before the king, and she is chosen to sing the Body-Watching Dirge, the most potent and sorrowful of songs. No expense was spared for the funeral of the queen, unending sacrifices were made, 1,000 white goats alone were offered to the god Vhäänyïrräi, lord of sorrow, wisdom, and the dead. Dhaakan was not pleased to have been chosen for the honored position of singing the Body-Watching Dirge, for she was worried about her father, her brothers, and her husband, all were part of the army sent to Nelinntö. She feared her worry would cause her voice to falter and that for this transgression she would be put to a most painful death. She prayed to her household gods, to Vhäänyïrräi her patron, and to Sholiraanma, goddess of protection to watch over her family. She received no answer, no sign, that the gods had heard her prayers. The King demanded that The funeral of his beloved wife be attended by all people of the city, free and slave alike, that they might all share in his grief. The hexagonal plaza before the palace (the pre-Dhaakani and the Dhaakani themselves preferred to use hexagons and triangles in their architecture and city planning because the number 3 was considered to be a representation of true balance as well as being auspicious) was filled with thousands of people, the roofs of the buildings were thronging with the poor, the slaves, and many goblins, indeed it was a spectacular sight. As the funeral procession made its way through the crowd from the house of the dead to the great pyre erected in the center of the plaza, shouts and cries were heard in the crowed, news had come from Nelinntö. The voices of the messengers were confused but their meaning was unmistakable, the whole of the Hankarashi army had been slaughtered by the defenders of the city and their allies, the ground was red-black with blood, only a few survived long enough to tell the tale and then expired. When Dhaakan heard this news of the slaughter of her family and all she held dear, her grief welled up insider her, but she could make no sound. Still, in spite of the horrific news, the funeral was to continue, and so it was that Dhaakan made ready to sing over the body of the dead queen. As she began, memories of her slaughtered kin could not be driven from her mind and so it was the grief and sorrow for them that poured out in her song. As her voice rose and fell reciting the words of the dirge with such emotion that had never been heard, the populous was indeed moved to tears and as the song rose to great crescendo, Dhaakan held a note, and such a hold it was, one would have thought her lungs would have burst from the strain of it. There she stood kneeling before the dead queen and for what some called hours, and others days, she held out that single note, such was its volume, it sorrow and its rage, that those within a radius of 10 meters fell to the ground, their ears bleeding, and their eyes streaming tears. When Dhaakan finally ended her song, there was not a soul in Hankarash that had not been moved to the deepest sorrow by her song, and all felt her just rage at the king for sending an army to its death for a city of little value but to his pride. In the aftermath of the dirge Dhaakan did not speak for five years, and refused to be seen by anyone. In her solitude, alone with her grief, she burned with the desire to discover what purpose was served in the needless death of so many. When she could find none, she turned her mind to a different task, to devise a means to end the needless suffering brought on by the wars, and to have her revenge for the death of her kin. Durring this period of seculsion Dhaakan writes what will become The Turnings of the Law the first of the books that would become the founding principles of the empire. Initially she attempts to spead her new-found wisdom in her homeland, but runs afoul of the local authorites, not the least of which was the king, for her apparent renuciation of the gods, and her strong belief in the abolition of the hereditary monarchy. Dhaakan brings her newly finished work before the warlord Saanduruk Vhaahratun of Dro Guuluk (one of the other states involved in the Broken Bell wars), after being exiled from Hankarash for blasphemy and sedition, who is intrigued by the notion of all people within the State, regardless of their position, being subordinate to the Law. Dhaakan is appointed chief advisor to the warlord and given the title of Negaolkukuligetann, “the one for whom the wheels of the law turn”. Dhaakan creates the first independent law-court but refuses to serve as a judge on the grounds that she did not want power over the people. Vhaahratun implements Dhaakan’s caste system, dividing the population of Dro Guuluk by occupation, social status, and education, instead of by species for the first time. Members of all three species (goblin, hobgoblin and bugbear) are found in all of the castes, and the strengths of each is made to work to the benefit of all. Worship of the old gods declines as Dhaakan’s system of law and social order gains strength as the dominant belief system. Dhaakan calls for an end to the wars between the Six Kingdoms, claiming that she has in mind a means to make each the master of the other. The Six warlords, Vhaahratun of Dro Guuluk, Amrit of Fenu’ut, Khïïlän of Dvraan, Yaigyaatan of Hankaresh (who replaced the king who exiled Dhaakan), Maaru of Janntol, and Bailaar of Kotvran grudgingly agree to meet with the former bard in the hopes of pacifying their subjects, many of who have begun to follow “the noble path of Dhaakan.” For 2 months Dhaakan holds the warlords effectively captive in her former home city of Hankarash while she outlines her plan for a unified empire held together through a common culture of law, discipline, and high art. Vhaahratun and Maaru are the first to agree to the plan and through much bargaining a treaty is signed which ended “for all time the spilling of blood between the Six kingdoms”. The Confederation of the Six is created and Vhaahratun is appointed supreme commander by the other five war-lords. Vhaahratun and the other five war-lords plea with Dhaakan to become empress of this new united state. Initially she refuses claiming that she does not see herself as fit to lead. Amrit of Fenu’ut and Yaigyaatan of Hankaresh propose the creation of a dualistic rule for the new empire. All temporal power over the armies, the enforcement of the law, taxation, and infrastructure will be under the direct control of the hōðuhrrla’at, the supreme and noble general, and all power over the creation of new laws, cultural forms, education, and philosophy will be under the rule of the Itarreamme, the empress. Dhaakan agrees to this and at the winter solstice is crowned Itarreamme Hlaarai Dhaakan. She appoints Vhaahratun as hōðuhrrla’at, and the remaining five become governors of the respective lands. -- More later on all of this
Darth Syntax 07-05-06, 06:04 PM	As a minor note, per my novels the Eberron herbs-boiled-in-hot-water beverage is actually called tal. I was just using the word tea to reference the nature of the drink, that actual OHD word for "an infusion of leaves from the eberron equivilent of Camellia sinensis and often with some additions, usualy from other plants" is tläänn. -- That's all I have for now, but I'm sure i'll come up with more later.
Hellcow 07-05-06, 09:33 PM	It really is not much of a strech to assume that many cultures would come up with a godess who bears enough similarity to Arawai to be seen as different version of the same diety. The Greek godess Demeter is effectivly Arawai, so its not much of a stretch to assume the female god of agriculture and fertility is a fairly common concept. Certainly. The weird part is when two cultures with no cultural contact both choose to depict their female fertility goddess as a bronze dragon. Or when two cultures share a legend about a god of magic who exchanged his shadow for mystical knowledge. The concept with the Host is that you can worship whatever you wish... but if you worship a female feritility deity in the form of a bronze dragon with a name not unlike "Arawai", you're more likely to get your prayers answered than if you worship a male fertilty deity in the form of a fat gorgon who's named "Bob". This doesn't conclusively prove the existence of the Sovereigns. It's possible that they are simply archetypes embedded in the unconscious, or that it is the fact that so many people share this ideal that gives it power. Likewise, while a Sovereign or member of the Dark Six is a powerful source of magic, many cultures have entirely different theologies built up around their deities. The sahuagin worship of the Devourer and the Talentan veneration of Balinor - while both these deities can be traced to the Soveriegn analogues by their symbols and rites - have nothing in common with the practices humans brought over from Sarlona. Essentially, the Sovereigns and Dark Six are an example of spiritual survival of the fittest. Every culture is likely to have a weather god. But those who worship Arawai or the Devourer were more likely to receive miracles. As a result, those cultures are more likely to thrive. As a result, you find a lot of cultures that worship some variation of the Sovereigns or Six... even if they do so in their own way. What this means - whether there are sentient gods, or whether these are just resonant archetypes that serve as lenses for mystical energy - remains an open question.
Darth Syntax 07-07-06, 08:51 PM	To Hellcow: I shall have to mull this over, its an interesting idea. To the thread as a whole: Other than the general continuation of the description of OHD, what all would you like to see? A discussion of other Goblinoid languages (I have a bit on Yimyataaq), more cultural information (as I or anyone else sees it)? Sayings, proverbs, and the like from OHD? I'm in a bit of a language block at the moment (my mind has wondered off to the planes to work on my imagining of Daanvi) as a bit of a nudge would be most helpful -- Thanks again to everyone who has participated in this thread, and I promise more updates in the near future.
ChimericalWolf 07-10-06, 09:02 PM	How about OHD curses? And maybe OHD words that might come up in regards to psionics? *nudge, nudge* (This has nothing to do with the fact that I'm playing a Blue. Nothing at all.)
Darth Syntax 07-10-06, 09:51 PM	I'll begin working on some curses, insults and the like. -- As to the issue of Psionics, considereing the era in which OHD was spoken (the 500 years prior to the Daelkyr wars and the century or three afterwards) I am not entirly sure how many psionic terms would exist in the language. MHD (middle high dhaakani) which arose in the later periods of the empire (the long, slow decline) would undoubtedly have a more developed psionic vocabulary. But, I'll see what I can come up with.
ChimericalWolf 07-10-06, 10:12 PM	Oh, I'm not thinking so much in the way of Manifester, or Psicrystal, or Psion, but more basic words that I could slip into character with, like thought, mind, crystal, stuff like that.
Splendide 07-10-06, 10:18 PM	When looking at foreign languages, the only two things you really want to know about them is how to call people rude things and how to pick up chicks. A guide to doing so would be superb.
Darth Syntax 07-11-06, 04:24 PM	With the boards going into limbo soon, I will keep my post short. Oh, I'm not thinking so much in the way of Manifester, or Psicrystal, or Psion, but more basic words that I could slip into character with, like thought, mind, crystal, stuff like that. Ah alright then. That I can do without too much difficulty Terms dealing with the mind shonkaar: mind hashonkaar: no mind or empty mind khelan-: think, general (class 1 verb) khelant: thought, general oygaant: thought, specific oygaa-: think, specific (class 1 verb) köönsäryä: mental self (roughly ego) ghaanlya: brain gōntaarn: conscious tluuto-: perceive (class 1 verb) ğashyaa: idea (in the Platonic or Idealist sense) ğashyō: idea (in the more common understanding) dhuurko: idiot vekko-: dream (class 1 verb) vekkonut: dream (as a noun) kashyaarana: the state of being aware senhaan-: aware (class 1 verb) Other tludaan: crystal (general category) When looking at foreign languages, the only two things you really want to know about them is how to call people rude things and how to pick up chicks. A guide to doing so would be superb. I'll begin working on this in the comparativly near future, for now, here is one of my favorite insults. It is roughly equivilent to 'take a long walk off a short pier' only it is considered about 5 times as rude. sulan-an khangar-an nōlu-et-am! do-2.s break-2.s tooth-PL-GEN 'go break your teeth!' more later
ArcTan 07-11-06, 06:27 PM	I'll begin working on some curses, insults and the like. -- As to the issue of Psionics, considereing the era in which OHD was spoken (the 500 years prior to the Daelkyr wars and the century or three afterwards) I am not entirly sure how many psionic terms would exist in the language. MHD (middle high dhaakani) which arose in the later periods of the empire (the long, slow decline) would undoubtedly have a more developed psionic vocabulary. But, I'll see what I can come up with. Since the daelkyr's illithid servants were prominent users of psionics, it seems to me that the Daelkyr War would be a good time for terms and concepts related to psionics -- perhaps expressed in a generally negative light -- to develop. Maybe not terms like "psicrystal" or "manifester", but terms for being _dominate_d, _feeblemind_ed, _mind blast_ed and so on wouldn't be out of place, or terms for ceremorphosis and the mind flayers' brain-eating process.
ChimericalWolf 07-26-06, 11:01 PM	Like heck I'm letting this thread get lost in the pile. *Kick to the top* Let's see moar! MOAR!
Darth Syntax 07-27-06, 12:59 AM	Owing to some minor computer issues (not to mention attending the wedding of a close friend in 107 degree heat and other boring real-world issues) my OHD progress is sadly nil at the moment. Hopefully the creative juices will begin flowing again soon and we will have insults galore. What would prove most helpful would be some ideas on the semantic frame of OHD insults. For example: english speakers equate intelligence with light, so calling someone 'dim' is very mildly insulting. OHD speakers, on the other hand, equate intelligence with sound and so calling someone something like 'a sour note' or 'out of tune' would be semantically equivilent to the english 'dim'. What I do not know is how they refer to other things. -- Anyway, thank you all for your continued support of this thread. Also, if anyone has any ideas (especially about gramatical features and the like) please feel free to post them.
Darth Syntax 07-30-06, 12:06 AM	Ok, here is the very begining of some insults and explitives for OHD, hopefully i will not get in too much trouble for this. Basic insulting terms dhuurko: idiot barbara: literally ‘savage’ laumnur: ‘without a song’ mildly insulting term for a none-to-bright person gyashuna: from the now obsolete verb ‘gyasha’ meaning ‘to be disowned, especially for one’s own conduct’ roughly equivalent to the English [illigitimate child] shyoğa: actually the name of a species of cuckoo-like bird, but used insultingly to refer to devious habbits, especially those that are horribly self-serving. Roughly equivalent to a gender non-specific form of [dergatory term for females which often related them with dogs] paakash: vulgar term for vomit, used much like [exciment] tshïïteshti illönän: ‘eater of clay’ originally simply a descriptive term for a dwarf (due to the mrorish custom of eating clay to prevent digestive problems), but it quickly became derogatory. vaağar: a general expletive, something like ‘damn’, of uncertain origin -- Splendide, I know of, and join with you, in your love of all things Zil. I was wondering if you (or anyone else for that matter) might be interested in some light discussion of the modern Zil language. If you are, please let me know, and I will post what I have, and then a discussion of Zil can commence. -- Anywho, the OHD case system (why oh why dear gods of old Dhaakan did i make it so massive?) is comeing along and I should have some more information on that in a few days. Enjoy todays appitizer and I am relativly sure a second course should be awaiting you all within a few days.
BoneLord_of_Skullthrone 08-17-06, 03:49 PM	:bump: