Eberron good choice for no raise-dead? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Eberron good choice for no raise-dead? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
EveOtter
05-10-04, 08:04 PM I'm looking forward to getting Eberron and running a game. I have long wanted to run a game where raise-dead and other forms of bringing people back isn't done. With Eberron's 'noir' intent and the apparent 'lack of involvement' of the gods, I'm thinking this would be a good chance.

I know I'll have to watch the CR's and encounters and stuff to compensate for the fact that 3.5 assumes some PCs will die and be brought back.

What do you guys think?
Brastan
05-10-04, 08:24 PM The existence or not of a god or gods should not keep you from offering a no return policy on dead characters. This is your chose and needs no excuse to your players. However they will be mightily up set when there favorite character is kill by really bad streak of luck.

Eberron still has the option of raising dead heros, however there are very few high level clerics that can cast such a spell. A band of adventures would have to pretty much undertake a whole additional quest just to resurrect their fallen companion. Keep that option in mind in case of an accident.
EveOtter
05-10-04, 08:41 PM I suppose it's good to have an escape if I do kill someone on accident.. although, more, I wanted the 'death is permanent" law to make murder a more serious crime, make the past war an even more horrible thing, and even more, I would like to make death REALLY scarey, to enhance the feel of the game. I want the characters to think their way through things and be gasping in terror for their lives, and if a death happens I want it to be "No! You killed Jim! NOOOOO!!!" not, "Aw, drat.... Someone scoop up the halfling and let's go back to the Temple..."

I would even really like it if it could be that an afterlife is not assured; that the most frightening aspect of death is the not-knowing what comes after, if anything. But I gather that the Planes etc are very influential in Eberron, so probably people know all about 'heaven and hell' as they exist in the setting.

One of my main concerns is that, if Eberron is very magic-rich, it would seem odd that the power over life and death isn't mastered as easily as flying trains...?
Hellcow
05-10-04, 09:07 PM In general, divine magic is something that is more mysterious and serious than arcane magic. Arcane magic is something people treat as, more or less, a form of science: by combining invocation x + component y you get spell effect Z. Divine magic is a matter of faith and miracle, and the fact that the gods aren't just folks you can hang around and talk to adds to that. Temples are not the primary source for healing in the world, and if a cleric is honest, someone of a different faith offering gold in exchange for a divine miracle would be an insult. And messing with life and death is an even more serious act: fate chose to strike you down, and you want the priest to intercede and get the fates to change their minds. In *my* campaign, you can't buy raise dead or resurrection: The only way to be restored is to perform a quest or service for the cleric in question, proving both that you have the favor of the god and that the church should be helping you.

Likewise, if you are a cleric who can raise the dead, and you run around doing it with no regard for who you're saving, you might draw the attention of a few angry fates.

With that said, that's what *I* prefer. There is an option presented in case you want raise to be available in the same manner as healing is available. And, there are ways to guard against raising the dead -- because yes, without the threat of death, you don't got no noir.
Brastan
05-10-04, 09:07 PM *Edit*
Didn't know you got in head of me Hellcow. EveOtter, listen to him over me. He knows things.
*Edit*

The main thing is that magic is every were, but not every one can tap into it. Hang around here long enough and you'll start to get the idea. From what I understand most of the high-level NPC's that were around are know mostly dead. To give you an idea of what's going on in the setting, the highest level (confirmed) cleric in an 11 year old girl who has become the living embodiment and voice of the Silver Flame. She is only 16th level stat wise. So everything is rather low level. the Lord of Blades(LoB) is a 12th level villein and he seems to one of the more powerful ones.
Eberron real is about chose, both the DM's and the Players. However you want to run it thats how it goes. There is a ligament reason for everything.

Perhaps in your campaign the plane the holds the sprits of the dead is far form Eberron and won't be back in the forceable future. This makes any attempts to contact the dead or even raise them a major problem. See Wizards Eberron sight for information about the planes.

As for death being scary, my most recent sent as a player was in an Epic campaign. We didn't dare die because we had so many enemies in the outer-planes plus we were worried about ending up in Carcary (the super prison dimension, you go in but you don't come out). Needless to say the party strategy became, "run away then come back and burn the place down."
Singing Urgosh
05-10-04, 10:08 PM without the threat of death, you don't got no noir.

Well said Hellcow.
What I would like to get some 'scrap' or 'teaser' about is just how much more influential/better/more balanced/accesible is Druidic magic compared to Divine magic? Since first reading into Eberron and working on the 'World Wyrm' theory (which has recently been proved right and wrong) I have had the personal belief that Eberron is made more for Druids than Clerics, and hence they represent the better casting fighter classout of the two.

If I was a PC in Eberron I would definately prefer to search out or have a druid in my party than a nutter from the Silver Flame. The Silver Flame seem like a bunch of overzealous evangelistic persecuters of the unholy, whereas the worst case with a druid is they shapeshift and eat you.

Stay sane
Stormtalon
05-11-04, 01:20 AM Originally posted by Singing Urgosh
Well said Hellcow.

If I was a PC in Eberron I would definately prefer to search out or have a druid in my party than a nutter from the Silver Flame. The Silver Flame seem like a bunch of overzealous evangelistic persecuters of the unholy, whereas the worst case with a druid is they shapeshift and eat you.

The preferred druidic phrase for "shapeshift and eat" is "recycle." As in, "Aye, that orc was despoilin' m'favorite peat bog, so I turned into a gator and recycled his ugly arse." Either way, you risk alienating/hacking off two rather powerful and influential groups. One will have you purified and cleansed of your sins -- not necessarily survivable, and the other will reintroduce you into the natural cycle as fertilizer.

Stormtalon
Plane Sailing
05-11-04, 04:52 AM One option that could be considered is borrowing an idea from the Conan game by Mongoose - allow people to use a couple of action points when they hit -10hp to be "left for dead" (this is in a world with no resurrection magic)

The idea can work quite well.
Singing Urgosh
05-11-04, 06:33 PM Either way, you risk alienating/hacking off two rather powerful and influential groups

I did not mean to sound as though I was alienating a group or two, what i meant was that I would bet that the Silver Flame don't provide resurrection purely 'at a cost', if in fact they have individuals who can cast this spell as they seem to be more militant preachers than stoic worshipers.

As for the Druids, I LOVE the potential for druids in the Eberron setting (see correct spelling) and I would probably say that they represent the most obvious and accessable means for healing, resurrection or reincarnation in this world. I also hope they get some better offensive abilities to further balance out the cleric/druid battle.

And why do you insist on having me mounted Stormtalon? Why? Why damn you!!!

Stay sane
Stormtalon
05-11-04, 07:11 PM Originally posted by Singing Urgosh
I did not mean to sound as though I was alienating a group or two, what i meant was that I would bet that the Silver Flame don't provide resurrection purely 'at a cost', if in fact they have individuals who can cast this spell as they seem to be more militant preachers than stoic worshipers.

True, true. Still, the OotSF seems to be one of those groups that --depending on the ranking cleric-- might be really easy to get on the wrong side of. One thing I'm curious about is if the OotSF has any clauses about celibacy. After all, if they don't, one REALLY good way to get on their bad side is for the party bard to make a pass at the local high priest's daughter.

As for the Druids, I LOVE the potential for druids in the Eberron setting (see correct spelling) and I would probably say that they represent the most obvious and accessable means for healing, resurrection or reincarnation in this world. I also hope they get some better offensive abilities to further balance out the cleric/druid battle.

I have a player in my group who does enjoy druids quite a bit, but does have problems handling combat situations. While the rest of the party goes to town, the druid looks around then just shrugs and says to her animal companion "Get 'em, boy!" She is getting better at using those spontaneous summons, though.

And why do you insist on having me mounted Stormtalon? Why? Why damn you!!!

Ahh, well, see, it's like this.... I first tried mounting bards over fireplaces, so as to have a constant supply of music for dining. The wretches didn't sing -- they just whined and complained about the spikes pinning them to the masonry. Then, as if whining wasn't enough, the ungrateful fools had the temerity to actually die! I think lack of wenching kills bards. So, the next best thing is singing weaponry. :schemes:

Stormtalon
Singing Urgosh
05-11-04, 07:35 PM I have a player in my group who does enjoy druids quite a bit, but does have problems handling combat situations. While the rest of the party goes to town, the druid looks around then just shrugs and says to her animal companion "Get 'em, boy!" She is getting better at using those spontaneous summons, though.

This has also been my only real interaction with Druids in any game I have played or DMed, with the druid being seen as a second rate fighter/caster/healer. I would like to see if the druids in Eberron gain access to or posses some more dragon based abilities such as 'Summon Dragon' or 'Wildshape: Dragon age catergory x' or even some sort of level based mutation that they can 'shift' towards becomming a dragon instead of a vegetable.

Oh yeah, I also would assume that with druids having such a high place in the Eberron world that there would be relatively little undead or dead raising going on. This is a great detraction from the usual D&D in which 1 PC can raise a few dozen lacky's at will and then continue to heal and pump them up.

And thanks for the ego boost Stormtalon, it is not often I get told by patrons they would rather listen to the gravelly undertones of a singing urgosh over the lilted voice of some castrated bard. :D

Stay sane
Aelina
05-11-04, 08:16 PM I have never been a fan of the whole "Quick, grab one of Jack's ears and lets find the nearest temple" consumer approach to raising and resurrecting the dead.

Here are some ideas I have had to remove that convenience while still keeping the game from becoming too brutal.

First, I am tempted to remove both Raise Dead and Resurrection as spell options. Alternatively you could chose to make them much harder:

You could turn them into 'ritual' type magic that requires multiple spellcasters, the correct aligning of the moons, rings, and planes, only works in a special place, and so on. I would get rid of the silly notion that all you need is a part of the victim and that the spell makes them whole again. Another requirement for raise dead could be that the body be preserved, or fully healed and reassembled prior to the raising spells.

Second, I would take steps to make PCs (and potentially all humanoids and creatures) more hardy:

In my campaign I have a house rule that a healthy human, demi-human, humanoid has a set number of starting HP. I chose the number 8, in part based on the max normal damage of a longsword.

That means that every PC will start with at least 8HP modified by CON. Classes that get D10 or D12 will still role and if they get less than 8 they get the default. That gives a bit of a survival boost to classes that normally get D4 or D6 hit points. After 1st level each PC would gain hitpoints as per their regular class HD.
So a second level Rogue with average CON would have 9-14HP at second level.

Third, I would make lesser healing easier to come by:

Have healing potions for purchase just about anywhere (usually from temples, but from healers, general stores too perhaps). Also I would go back to an idea from 1st Ed and make a single healing potion have multiple doses. Wounds are a part of my campaign and I allow healing potions to be poured directly into them. If you don't have wounds (that provide penalties) then perhaps direct application might provide a slight bonus to points healed. You might also grant PCs a bonus first aid skill or something so that they can bandage wounds and keep characters below 0 HP from dying.

Finally, I would replace the raise spells with a better stasis spell. A seriously wounded character could be placed into stasis before dying. This would allow the PCs to get to a place that has more potent healing that could save the character when the stasis is removed.

Of course, if you are blown to dust by a high-powered fireball or on the receiving end of a Disintegrate spell then you are out of luck.

Anyone have any comments or thoughts?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EveOtter 05-10-04, 08:04 PM	I'm looking forward to getting Eberron and running a game. I have long wanted to run a game where raise-dead and other forms of bringing people back isn't done. With Eberron's 'noir' intent and the apparent 'lack of involvement' of the gods, I'm thinking this would be a good chance. I know I'll have to watch the CR's and encounters and stuff to compensate for the fact that 3.5 assumes some PCs will die and be brought back. What do you guys think?
Brastan 05-10-04, 08:24 PM	The existence or not of a god or gods should not keep you from offering a no return policy on dead characters. This is your chose and needs no excuse to your players. However they will be mightily up set when there favorite character is kill by really bad streak of luck. Eberron still has the option of raising dead heros, however there are very few high level clerics that can cast such a spell. A band of adventures would have to pretty much undertake a whole additional quest just to resurrect their fallen companion. Keep that option in mind in case of an accident.
EveOtter 05-10-04, 08:41 PM	I suppose it's good to have an escape if I do kill someone on accident.. although, more, I wanted the 'death is permanent" law to make murder a more serious crime, make the past war an even more horrible thing, and even more, I would like to make death REALLY scarey, to enhance the feel of the game. I want the characters to think their way through things and be gasping in terror for their lives, and if a death happens I want it to be "No! You killed Jim! NOOOOO!!!" not, "Aw, drat.... Someone scoop up the halfling and let's go back to the Temple..." I would even really like it if it could be that an afterlife is not assured; that the most frightening aspect of death is the not-knowing what comes after, if anything. But I gather that the Planes etc are very influential in Eberron, so probably people know all about 'heaven and hell' as they exist in the setting. One of my main concerns is that, if Eberron is very magic-rich, it would seem odd that the power over life and death isn't mastered as easily as flying trains...?
Hellcow 05-10-04, 09:07 PM	In general, divine magic is something that is more mysterious and serious than arcane magic. Arcane magic is something people treat as, more or less, a form of science: by combining invocation x + component y you get spell effect Z. Divine magic is a matter of faith and miracle, and the fact that the gods aren't just folks you can hang around and talk to adds to that. Temples are not the primary source for healing in the world, and if a cleric is honest, someone of a different faith offering gold in exchange for a divine miracle would be an insult. And messing with life and death is an even more serious act: fate chose to strike you down, and you want the priest to intercede and get the fates to change their minds. In my campaign, you can't buy raise dead or resurrection: The only way to be restored is to perform a quest or service for the cleric in question, proving both that you have the favor of the god and that the church should be helping you. Likewise, if you are a cleric who can raise the dead, and you run around doing it with no regard for who you're saving, you might draw the attention of a few angry fates. With that said, that's what I prefer. There is an option presented in case you want raise to be available in the same manner as healing is available. And, there are ways to guard against raising the dead -- because yes, without the threat of death, you don't got no noir.
Brastan 05-10-04, 09:07 PM	Edit Didn't know you got in head of me Hellcow. EveOtter, listen to him over me. He knows things. Edit The main thing is that magic is every were, but not every one can tap into it. Hang around here long enough and you'll start to get the idea. From what I understand most of the high-level NPC's that were around are know mostly dead. To give you an idea of what's going on in the setting, the highest level (confirmed) cleric in an 11 year old girl who has become the living embodiment and voice of the Silver Flame. She is only 16th level stat wise. So everything is rather low level. the Lord of Blades(LoB) is a 12th level villein and he seems to one of the more powerful ones. Eberron real is about chose, both the DM's and the Players. However you want to run it thats how it goes. There is a ligament reason for everything. Perhaps in your campaign the plane the holds the sprits of the dead is far form Eberron and won't be back in the forceable future. This makes any attempts to contact the dead or even raise them a major problem. See Wizards Eberron sight for information about the planes. As for death being scary, my most recent sent as a player was in an Epic campaign. We didn't dare die because we had so many enemies in the outer-planes plus we were worried about ending up in Carcary (the super prison dimension, you go in but you don't come out). Needless to say the party strategy became, "run away then come back and burn the place down."
Singing Urgosh 05-10-04, 10:08 PM	without the threat of death, you don't got no noir. Well said Hellcow. What I would like to get some 'scrap' or 'teaser' about is just how much more influential/better/more balanced/accesible is Druidic magic compared to Divine magic? Since first reading into Eberron and working on the 'World Wyrm' theory (which has recently been proved right and wrong) I have had the personal belief that Eberron is made more for Druids than Clerics, and hence they represent the better casting fighter classout of the two. If I was a PC in Eberron I would definately prefer to search out or have a druid in my party than a nutter from the Silver Flame. The Silver Flame seem like a bunch of overzealous evangelistic persecuters of the unholy, whereas the worst case with a druid is they shapeshift and eat you. Stay sane
Stormtalon 05-11-04, 01:20 AM	Originally posted by Singing Urgosh Well said Hellcow. If I was a PC in Eberron I would definately prefer to search out or have a druid in my party than a nutter from the Silver Flame. The Silver Flame seem like a bunch of overzealous evangelistic persecuters of the unholy, whereas the worst case with a druid is they shapeshift and eat you. The preferred druidic phrase for "shapeshift and eat" is "recycle." As in, "Aye, that orc was despoilin' m'favorite peat bog, so I turned into a gator and recycled his ugly arse." Either way, you risk alienating/hacking off two rather powerful and influential groups. One will have you purified and cleansed of your sins -- not necessarily survivable, and the other will reintroduce you into the natural cycle as fertilizer. Stormtalon
Plane Sailing 05-11-04, 04:52 AM	One option that could be considered is borrowing an idea from the Conan game by Mongoose - allow people to use a couple of action points when they hit -10hp to be "left for dead" (this is in a world with no resurrection magic) The idea can work quite well.
Singing Urgosh 05-11-04, 06:33 PM	Either way, you risk alienating/hacking off two rather powerful and influential groups I did not mean to sound as though I was alienating a group or two, what i meant was that I would bet that the Silver Flame don't provide resurrection purely 'at a cost', if in fact they have individuals who can cast this spell as they seem to be more militant preachers than stoic worshipers. As for the Druids, I LOVE the potential for druids in the Eberron setting (see correct spelling) and I would probably say that they represent the most obvious and accessable means for healing, resurrection or reincarnation in this world. I also hope they get some better offensive abilities to further balance out the cleric/druid battle. And why do you insist on having me mounted Stormtalon? Why? Why damn you!!! Stay sane
Stormtalon 05-11-04, 07:11 PM	Originally posted by Singing Urgosh I did not mean to sound as though I was alienating a group or two, what i meant was that I would bet that the Silver Flame don't provide resurrection purely 'at a cost', if in fact they have individuals who can cast this spell as they seem to be more militant preachers than stoic worshipers. True, true. Still, the OotSF seems to be one of those groups that --depending on the ranking cleric-- might be really easy to get on the wrong side of. One thing I'm curious about is if the OotSF has any clauses about celibacy. After all, if they don't, one REALLY good way to get on their bad side is for the party bard to make a pass at the local high priest's daughter. As for the Druids, I LOVE the potential for druids in the Eberron setting (see correct spelling) and I would probably say that they represent the most obvious and accessable means for healing, resurrection or reincarnation in this world. I also hope they get some better offensive abilities to further balance out the cleric/druid battle. I have a player in my group who does enjoy druids quite a bit, but does have problems handling combat situations. While the rest of the party goes to town, the druid looks around then just shrugs and says to her animal companion "Get 'em, boy!" She is getting better at using those spontaneous summons, though. And why do you insist on having me mounted Stormtalon? Why? Why damn you!!! Ahh, well, see, it's like this.... I first tried mounting bards over fireplaces, so as to have a constant supply of music for dining. The wretches didn't sing -- they just whined and complained about the spikes pinning them to the masonry. Then, as if whining wasn't enough, the ungrateful fools had the temerity to actually die! I think lack of wenching kills bards. So, the next best thing is singing weaponry. :schemes: Stormtalon
Singing Urgosh 05-11-04, 07:35 PM	I have a player in my group who does enjoy druids quite a bit, but does have problems handling combat situations. While the rest of the party goes to town, the druid looks around then just shrugs and says to her animal companion "Get 'em, boy!" She is getting better at using those spontaneous summons, though. This has also been my only real interaction with Druids in any game I have played or DMed, with the druid being seen as a second rate fighter/caster/healer. I would like to see if the druids in Eberron gain access to or posses some more dragon based abilities such as 'Summon Dragon' or 'Wildshape: Dragon age catergory x' or even some sort of level based mutation that they can 'shift' towards becomming a dragon instead of a vegetable. Oh yeah, I also would assume that with druids having such a high place in the Eberron world that there would be relatively little undead or dead raising going on. This is a great detraction from the usual D&D in which 1 PC can raise a few dozen lacky's at will and then continue to heal and pump them up. And thanks for the ego boost Stormtalon, it is not often I get told by patrons they would rather listen to the gravelly undertones of a singing urgosh over the lilted voice of some castrated bard. :D Stay sane
Aelina 05-11-04, 08:16 PM	I have never been a fan of the whole "Quick, grab one of Jack's ears and lets find the nearest temple" consumer approach to raising and resurrecting the dead. Here are some ideas I have had to remove that convenience while still keeping the game from becoming too brutal. First, I am tempted to remove both Raise Dead and Resurrection as spell options. Alternatively you could chose to make them much harder: You could turn them into 'ritual' type magic that requires multiple spellcasters, the correct aligning of the moons, rings, and planes, only works in a special place, and so on. I would get rid of the silly notion that all you need is a part of the victim and that the spell makes them whole again. Another requirement for raise dead could be that the body be preserved, or fully healed and reassembled prior to the raising spells. Second, I would take steps to make PCs (and potentially all humanoids and creatures) more hardy: In my campaign I have a house rule that a healthy human, demi-human, humanoid has a set number of starting HP. I chose the number 8, in part based on the max normal damage of a longsword. That means that every PC will start with at least 8HP modified by CON. Classes that get D10 or D12 will still role and if they get less than 8 they get the default. That gives a bit of a survival boost to classes that normally get D4 or D6 hit points. After 1st level each PC would gain hitpoints as per their regular class HD. So a second level Rogue with average CON would have 9-14HP at second level. Third, I would make lesser healing easier to come by: Have healing potions for purchase just about anywhere (usually from temples, but from healers, general stores too perhaps). Also I would go back to an idea from 1st Ed and make a single healing potion have multiple doses. Wounds are a part of my campaign and I allow healing potions to be poured directly into them. If you don't have wounds (that provide penalties) then perhaps direct application might provide a slight bonus to points healed. You might also grant PCs a bonus first aid skill or something so that they can bandage wounds and keep characters below 0 HP from dying. Finally, I would replace the raise spells with a better stasis spell. A seriously wounded character could be placed into stasis before dying. This would allow the PCs to get to a place that has more potent healing that could save the character when the stasis is removed. Of course, if you are blown to dust by a high-powered fireball or on the receiving end of a Disintegrate spell then you are out of luck. Anyone have any comments or thoughts?