Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Streamweaver 04-28-05, 05:03 PM	I'm working on a worldmap in CC2 for Eberron and I didn't really notice until now that Eberron doesn't seem to have anything it calls an Ocean. Everything is a Sea. Odd. Anyone know what the difference is, if any?
Makabriel 04-28-05, 05:11 PM	I believe... but don't quote me on this .. that a Sea is fresh water and an Ocean is salt water. I could be way off base, though.
Kid SixXx 04-28-05, 05:12 PM	I'm working on a worldmap in CC2 for Eberron and I didn't really notice until now that Eberron doesn't seem to have anything it calls an Ocean. Everything is a Sea. Odd. Anyone know what the difference is, if any? The seas are probably named as such because they're identified on trade routes by whatever means Eberron folks use to navigate such waters. From the looks of the map in the ECS, there appear to be large sections of water that are apparently uncharted. The denizens probably haven't put the pieces of their world together well enough to figure out what bodies of water link to what, hence no titles for any large expanses of water. At least that's my explanation.
Ohtar Turinson 04-28-05, 05:27 PM	a Sea is fresh water and an Ocean is salt water. Seas are always salt water. Any body of salt water mostly surrounded by land over (and over a certain size) is a sea, and some parts of oceans have names as seas too. So saith dictionary.com So really, it's just a matter of scale- a sea is the region of an ocean, for the most part. Oceans don't really need a name unless you do a lot of open ocean sailing, which it doesn't seem like Khorvairens are inclined to.
Taigis 04-28-05, 05:33 PM	I believe... but don't quote me on this .. that a Sea is fresh water and an Ocean is salt water. I could be way off base, though. I couldn't help but quote you, in order to reply. ;) There is no quantifiable difference between an Ocean and Sea. It is a naming convention in which the largest expanses of open water are called ocean and smaller subdivisions of these oceans are called seas. It assuredly doesn't refer to salt vs fresh water: examples Mediterranean Sea, Carribean Sea, China Sea are all salt water. One of my sources also indicates that large inland bodies of salt water are also named seas: Dead Sea, Caspian Sea. But this doesn't hold true in all cases: The Great Salt Lake. Why Seas and not Oceans? Maybe the people liked the way the Barren Sea sounded versus Barren Ocean. *shrug* Looking at the map, the only large single area of water that I would think would qualify as an ocean is west of Khorvaire, east of Sarlona and south east of Argonessen. Naming conventions behind many geomorphological forms don't have quantifiable measures; find the difference between a river, stream, creek and run. The difference lies in size, but no definable break is easy to establish. Further, streams and such vary in size over their entire length and over time. Taigis
Taigis 04-28-05, 05:41 PM	Seas are always salt water. Any body of salt water mostly surrounded by land over (and over a certain size) is a sea, and some parts of oceans have names as seas too. So saith dictionary.com So really, it's just a matter of scale- a sea is the region of an ocean, for the most part. Oceans don't really need a name unless you do a lot of open ocean sailing, which it doesn't seem like Khorvairens are inclined to. I agree with most of this; the only part that I'm not sure about is "mostly surrounded by land" because oceans are mostly surrounded by land. Take the Atlantic Ocean: Most of it is surrounded by NorthAmerica, South America, Africa, Europe and Antarctica. I guess it all depends what dictionary.com means by "mostly surrounded by." The Sargasso sea, off the east coast of North America, is barely bordered by land. Taigis
Makabriel 04-28-05, 06:02 PM	Guess I should have thought of the obvious, the Dead Sea, which has a ton of salt. Ah well, I botched my Knowledge:Geography roll..
Streamweaver 04-28-05, 06:51 PM	There is no quantifiable difference between an Ocean and Sea. I figured as much. Probably similar to the distinction between a boat and a ship. You can fit a boat on a ship, but not a ship on a boat.
Taigis 04-28-05, 07:34 PM	Maybe if we found an unihabited world with land and water surfaces, we could come up with quantifiable definitions of what Oceans and Seas might be. Even then, there's likely to be a lot of debate and disagreement. Another example: What's the difference between Urban and Rural? Well it depends on what country you are in. Taigis
DreamChaser 04-29-05, 03:56 PM	Seas are always salt water. Any body of salt water mostly surrounded by land over (and over a certain size) is a sea, and some parts of oceans have names as seas too. So saith dictionary.com the Caspian Sea is fresh water. IIRC, sea (mare) refered to the large bodies of water around Europe except for the Atlantic (oceanus) which was so large that it seemed to reach to forever. There is no real rhyme or reason to it now...although many of the Oceans today are linked with oceanic plates (pacific plate, atlantic plate, etc). Not all though. DC
aelryinth 04-29-05, 11:39 PM	THe Salt lake is so named because it has no connection to anything but freshwater. It's also slowly drying up because it has no outlet. It's also probably misnamed, but I believe the Size of the Salt Lake is why it's called a lake...it's much smaller then the Dead Sea. ==Aelryinth
Gez 04-30-05, 03:53 AM	The difference between an ocean and a sea is about the same as between an island and a continent: a question of size and convention, but not something really rigorous. Is Australia a large island or a small continent? Why are Europe, Asia, and Africa different continents when they're all the same landmass? Same question for both Americas? Of course, you could bring in a plate tectonics (http://observe.arc.nasa.gov/nasa/earth/tectonics/graphics/worldplates.jpg) answer. Just don't. Plate tectonics was discovered and refined long, long, long after the concept of continent was coined and the continents themselves were defined. Among other silliness, this would make you consider India to be on the Australian continent rather than in Asia. Sorry, Eurasia. The Arabian peninsula would become a full fledged continent, distinct from Africa or Eurasia. And the north-easternmost part of Russia would be, in fact, in North America -- you've been invaded by commies all this time and didn't even realize it! :P A sea is smaller than an ocean (compare Atlantic Ocean and Mediterranean Sea). An ocean can contain seas (the Atlantic Ocean contains the Caribbean Sea). A sea can also contain seas (the Mediterranean Sea contains the Adriatic Sea). A sea cannot contain an ocean, and an ocean cannot contain another ocean. So, oceans are top-level elements. Also, if you include astronomical observations in the mix, then seas do not necessarily contain water, salt or fresh. Look at the lunar seas...
Pozas 04-30-05, 08:58 AM	"Ocean" comes from the greek titan Oceanus. In greek myth, the world was surrounded by the River Oceanus. Before the New World was discovered, the now-called "Atlantic Ocean" was known simply as the Ocean Sea. Everything was "sea". Makes sense in a world that never had a proto-god of water named Oceanus to not have the world "ocean". It's like not having Thursday, since Eberron never had Thor.
Grynn 04-30-05, 09:30 AM	THe Salt lake is so named because it has no connection to anything but freshwater. It's also slowly drying up because it has no outlet. It's also probably misnamed, but I believe the Size of the Salt Lake is why it's called a lake...it's much smaller then the Dead Sea. ==Aelryinth Actually, it's not drying up because it has no outlet; it's drying up because more water is evaporating than flowing into it. It's salty because it has no outlet, so the salt content just keeps building up, which is the same reason why the Dead Sea is so salty.
Taigis 04-30-05, 12:34 PM	the Caspian Sea is fresh water. DC Although I've never been to the Caspian Sea, all of my sources: several geography text and dictionary.com indicate that it is salt water feature, though one source indicates that it has 1/3 the salinity of the Ocean (though even that varies from place to place). Taigis
Euangelion 04-30-05, 04:34 PM	I figured as much. Probably similar to the distinction between a boat and a ship. You can fit a boat on a ship, but not a ship on a boat. Heh, even this now has an exception. Submarines are (in U.S. English at least) still referred to as "boats," even though the largest subs in the U.S. Fleet are longer than WW II aircraft carriers!
Psionycx 04-30-05, 07:30 PM	Touching on Pozas's reference to Oceanus, the ancient Greeks did not know that there were lands on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. Hence the ocean seemed to be the boundary of the world. But Eberron has four major continents fairly evenly dispersed across the surface of the planet (assuming that the map represents the entire world. So to a sailor setting sail from Khorvaire, it is well known that there is land in almost every direction. This makes the seas seem less of boundary and more of a transition between lands, thus blurring the concept. It is funny, but many fundamental words we use don't have precise definitions. "Planet", for example, does not have a specific defintion (resulting in astronomers fighting over whether Pluto should or should not be called a planet). Likewise, the difference between an ocean and sea is rooted in ancient thinking and thus creates some paradoxes, although generally a sea is defined as being smaller than an ocean.
dxyn 04-30-05, 08:23 PM	I figured as much. Probably similar to the distinction between a boat and a ship. You can fit a boat on a ship, but not a ship on a boat. A boat moves with the consent of all aboard. A ship has a captain. Submarines are ships that are called boats because of tradition. Dxyn
Raede 04-30-05, 10:16 PM	Another example: What's the difference between Urban and Rural? Well it depends on what country you are in. urban = city rural = not city a city can be described as rural but in that case it is just a derogatory term meaning that it is a small city
Gez 05-01-05, 03:45 AM	It is funny, but many fundamental words we use don't have precise definitions. "Planet", for example, does not have a specific defintion (resulting in astronomers fighting over whether Pluto should or should not be called a planet). Likewise, the difference between an ocean and sea is rooted in ancient thinking and thus creates some paradoxes, although generally a sea is defined as being smaller than an ocean. A planet is, literally, a wandering star... Because the stars were always to the same place with regard to each others, while planets weren't. Of course, the Earth isn't a planet, it's the earth -- the ground. I have never heard of a language in which our world is not named after the classical element of earth.
Taigis 05-01-05, 05:54 PM	urban = city rural = not city a city can be described as rural but in that case it is just a derogatory term meaning that it is a small city What does it mean to be a City? Listen, I know general difference between urban and rural. However, the quantifiable definition changes from country to country. In the US, urban areas are incorporated areas that have over 5000+ people. Doesn't matter the make up of the area. All that matters is the number of people. This definition even changed between 1940 and 1950. So, one country might have different definitions of urban throughout its history. Other countries use different definitions. Some may say urban areas have 1000+ people. Other countries may say it needs 10,000+ people. Even the individual states of the U.S. have differences. I seem to recall that Ohio's constitution only indicate definitions for cities and villages. Therefore, Ohio technically has no towns. Taigis
Alkaline 05-02-05, 12:04 PM	Probably because "Sea Monster" sounds cooler than "Ocean Monster".