Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DragoonDarkfire 09-25-07, 01:49 PM	I recently had a discussion on another forum about campaign settings. There was this huge argument about Eberron with some FR fan saying that Eberron was crap and then there was me defending the setting. The topic was locked but I saved a few quotes. Eberron to me just seems like a bad direction for DnD. It takes away from it's classic routes and turns it into a Final Fantasy ripoff. To which I responded. Final Fantasy? Tell me are you getting that impression from actually looking at the setting, reading the material and forming an opinion or did you just draw that conclusion on the fact that there are airships? Suffice to say there were some other arguments. Warforged are just a horrible idea for a race. Mechanically they don't work at all. I had no idea what the poster meant by this and when asked I got no response. When I look at Eberron I want to puke. It's a horrible bastardization of DnD. This was both aggrivating and hilarious at the same time. And there was more to. Some people even said it was a rip off of Forgotten Realms. Almost all the arguments against it have ranged from- Meh not that big a fan. to the quotes above. Frankly I can't understand a lot of the hate for Eberron since most of it seem to be by people who don't understand the setting at all. Or are basing their ideas off of vauge peices of information. Heck I recall someone saying Eberron was a bad idea since there was a continent of dragons and it would be impossible to explore that place. So tell me. What arguments against Eberron have you heard and how do you feel about them?
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-25-07, 01:53 PM	Filthy infidels that should be purged from the earth.
Charles Phipps 09-25-07, 01:56 PM	From RPG.net and "The Hat of Eberron knows no limits", it generally boils down to a number of principles. * People tend to think its less revolutionary than it claims to be (see Mystara setting) * Annoying Eberron fans talking about the superiority of Eberron to FR. * People annoyed by the Arcanopunk and Steampunk elements in their fantasy. * People who resent their favorite settingTM pushed out for Eberron. * People who think the setting has truly bizarre power discrepencies. * People who think it's not Pulp and resent its being claimed as such.
TiwazTyrsfist 09-25-07, 03:18 PM	Primarily, people who have made the bad logic leap as follows. A> Staffing for Eberron was the reason that Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Darksun, Dragonlance, Mystara, and Planescape were cut. Eberron killed my favorite Setting. B> If they cut Eberron, They will bring back Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Darksun, Dragonlance, Mystara, and Planescape. All of them.
Toloran 09-25-07, 03:20 PM	It really boils down to this: Fanboys will be fanboys regardless. They cannot handle anything that does fit with their picture of whats good and what isn't. FR fanboys have an advantage over Eberron in that they've had a longer time to accumulate them :)
DragoonDarkfire 09-25-07, 05:38 PM	Primarily, people who have made the bad logic leap as follows. A> Staffing for Eberron was the reason that Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Darksun, Dragonlance, Mystara, and Planescape were cut. Eberron killed my favorite Setting. B> If they cut Eberron, They will bring back Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Darksun, Dragonlance, Mystara, and Planescape. All of them. Which of course doesn't make any sense at all...
eehamburg 09-25-07, 05:56 PM	Which of course doesn't make any sense at all... Sense? Since when does sense come into this at all? Wake up and smell reality. Reality says if you can sell it then it must be real. Just look around you. Why do you people always buy propaganda? So why should RPG propaganda be any different?
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-25-07, 06:29 PM	Sense? Since when does sense come into this at all? Wake up and smell reality. Reality says if you can sell it then it must be real. Just look around you. Why do you people always buy propaganda? So why should RPG propaganda be any different? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/lola_gt/Jpegs/tinfoil-hat.jpg
bad_phil 09-25-07, 06:51 PM	To this I say, taste it before you hate it. It,s easy to say that you don't like a meal without even tasting it. I don't want to turn around the tread, but it's the same with videogames or movies. Try a videogame before you say it looks bad just looking at the graphics of the box. You can like it, or you can dislike it, but you should try it before you get your opinion. personnaly, I love Eberron, but I don't hate other settings if I did'nt played them. Forgotten realms is a great campain setting, but for my own reasons, I prefer Eberron. It's also easy to say "Mine is better than yours!! GNA!
Salla 09-25-07, 07:28 PM	Meh. The fact that Eberron was nothing like FR, Greyhawk, or Tolkien was one of the things that drew me TO it. I soured on 'traditional' fantasy a long time ago. The fact that Eberron makes halflings and elves (especially elves!) fresh and interesting was astounding, and the new races are awesome (I :love: me some Shifters and Warforged).
TheKeyofE 09-25-07, 07:41 PM	ZOMG P510N1X IS TEH OVERPOWERED!!!!11!1!11ONE ... Oh, sorry, wrong board. But honestly, that's what this reminds me of. As a psi-afficiando, there's always posts on the psi boards by people posting their uninformed opinions without actually reading the books. I see the same thing happening with Eb haters; they make biased assumptions (assumptions are bad, m'kay?) based on incomplete information, and in typical nerd fashion refuse to bend even a little, afraid to be proven wrong. The same thing happened when Tome of Battle came out and everyone shouted "zomg, it's too anime!" (It's really not). I think it's just a sad fact of DnD, the internet, and life in general. No offense to any of you who happen to dislike psionics for whatever reason. Just make sure you've read the material before you start posting biased or uninformed opinions. And this goes for us Eb lovers, too. We shouldn't bash FR (no matter how much we might not like it :P) without understanding it first.
LoneStranger 09-25-07, 07:56 PM	I'm sure at least part of it is some people are used to the setting of Forgotten Realms or Spelljammer or what have you, they like the setting so they become a "snob" of that setting. I've tried to get into one or two other settings but really haven't been able too really. A buddy of mine is huge on both Ravenloft and Forgotten Realms, given a choice between the two I'll take FR twice any day of the week over Ravenloft. Another buddy of mine is big on Dark Sun and Spelljammer, never got a chance to really experience either one but Spelljammer looks interesting to me. However my main like for D&D settings is Eberron, mainly because it takes a solid left turn from what you usually expect. "Why is that halfing riding a dinosaur?" "I just spent 10 minutes debating politics with a construct!" "What do you mean one of the nations detonated one day?" It's the unique take that each setting has that lets people latch onto it, and I have to agree that the pure fanboyism that happens is annoying. I definitely prefer Eberron to other settings (Warforged and the Dwarves are bankers), but I'll take the rare stance and say I won't think less of someone because of the realm they like (that's not saying I won't have other reasons to think less of them though).
Charles Phipps 09-25-07, 08:47 PM	http://www.chirographum.com/weblog/images/new-hat.jpg MY HAT OF EBERRON KNOWS NO LIMITS!
DragoonDarkfire 09-25-07, 09:06 PM	http://www.chirographum.com/weblog/images/new-hat.jpg MY HAT OF EBERRON KNOWS NO LIMITS! That hat has nothing to do with Eberron. Get an Indiana Jones hat or get off my thread.
Charles Phipps 09-25-07, 09:07 PM	Ah, but the wearer is the VILLAIN. ;-)
Toloran 09-25-07, 09:58 PM	Ah, but the wearer is the VILLAIN. ;-) Everyone knows that villiains always have mustaches.
Charles Phipps 09-25-07, 10:05 PM	Well played. Well played. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d5/ClerksEp3.jpg/300px-ClerksEp3.jpg
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-25-07, 10:16 PM	Everyone knows that villiains always have mustaches. But... If that's true... http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd153/Nerindil981/KeithWorship.jpg
DragoonDarkfire 09-25-07, 10:22 PM	But... If that's true... http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd153/Nerindil981/KeithWorship.jpg I'm sorry but when I look at Keith I'm reminded of Bruce Ironstache for some reason. (It's an inside joke, if you don't get it don't ask)
Charles Phipps 09-25-07, 10:27 PM	http://sitemason.nashvillepost.com/files/ehclvW/rumorsn.jpg/main.jpg GASP!
Label 09-25-07, 11:48 PM	Wait, I have a mustache, and I'm the DM. Does that mean... I'm a villain! woot! But, the Lord of Blade has no mustache... unless... he's an artificer afterall! warforged component! Mustache of Villainy! Wait... Erandis d'Vol has no mustache... Hum by the way, what does all of this has to do with the OP, besides being fun?
Ogiwan 09-25-07, 11:50 PM	I guess I'm solidly an Eberron fanboy, then, cause I think Eberron > FR. Two arguments: 1.) overpopulation of high-level NPCs (I'm sure Eberron will get there eventually, once it's been around as much as FR has), and 2.) Way too many damn little countries. Seriously, how many Dales are there? You can count the countries of Eberron on your fingers and toes; you need to be a centipede to count the countries of FR on your legs.
Toloran 09-26-07, 12:21 AM	Wait, I have a mustache, and I'm the DM. Does that mean... I'm a villain! woot! But, the Lord of Blade has no mustache... unless... he's an artificer afterall! warforged component! Mustache of Villainy! Wait... Erandis d'Vol has no mustache... Hum by the way, what does all of this has to do with the OP, besides being fun? Mainly that campaign settings created by evil masterminds are better then those that are not =p Seriously though, most of the Eberron haters fall in to two camps: Those who just dislike the setting for some reason. These people you can have reasonable discussions but in the end they'll probably dislike just as much as when you started the conversation. As such, although it is worth the try, it is generally pointless to argue with them. The other kind are the fanboys who are 100% impervious to Logic, Illogic (not-logic), Anti-Logic, and Anti-Illogic (anti-not-logic). No matter what you do, they will not change there stance and if you try to discuss it reasonably with them they will resort to ad hominem attacks at the campaign setting and possibly even you. (Note: This is true with most haters) ISeriously, how many Dales are there? So many Dales, but no Chip n' Dales.
Identitystolen 09-26-07, 12:31 AM	I never really encountered much hate/flaming/trolling outside of message boards. Worst comment I ever got on Eberron IRL was "Wow... Eberron is weird" from a guy after flipping through my ECS and not looking at the setting before. Sure people have told me their problems with certain aspects of the game (dinosuar riding halflings seems to be a re-occurring theme here), but on the whole they seem to enjoy the setting. I've the same thing with Forgotten Realms though, there are aspects I dis-like (information overload!), but on the whole its not a bad setting by any means. Maybe people act more civil in the real world than on the internet, I don't know. :P
Belabras 09-26-07, 01:14 AM	Crude, but topical http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/081607/haterade-scientist.gif
Charles Phipps 09-26-07, 04:04 AM	http://www.qarl.com/qLab/pile/300/SPARTA.jpg "THIS IS EBERRON!" <serious> I will admit, I was not originally interested in Eberron. My own feelings may not be any indication but frankly, the setting didn't seem to invoke any sense of epic grandeur for me. I had difficulty getting the concept behind Eberron because I didn't really care much for the need to "Fantasize" Pulps or Noir fiction. If I wanted to do Detective Fiction or exploring Lost Continents for weirdos, then I'd almost certainly just do it with Call of Cthulhu or Adventure. My players expressed interest in the setting rather baffled me since there was nothing that seemed to particularly stand out about it. If people aren't using modern weaponry then why the Hell would it feel like WW1 or WW2 like it was invoked? Crossbows being substitutes for guns in Detective fiction is, bluntly, just stupid and you can't invoke Hard Boiled Detective Fiction without guns in my opinion. I changed my opinion.
Rechan 09-26-07, 04:53 AM	I did recently hear a complaint about Eberron that was new. It boils down to: "All the Aberrations are basically cordoned off to being chaos monsters and all the fiends are either stuck playing toady to the cat-heads or they're shuffled off in the planes. Everything is so sequestered in its little corners. And the PLANES. The PLANES MY GOD. Either do Planescape justice or DON'T DO IT AT ALL." There were various threats against Keiths' life, et al.
Charles Phipps 09-26-07, 06:02 AM	One major complaint was that Eberron didn't use the Great Wheel. It's weird, I never got that complaint from Dragonlance.
Cifer 09-26-07, 07:48 AM	all the fiends are either stuck playing toady to the cat-heads Actually, that's a funny one that often escapes people's notice: The Rakshasa Rajas are (probably) not Rakshasas, but those who lord over the Rakshasas.
DragoonDarkfire 09-26-07, 10:22 AM	I did recently hear a complaint about Eberron that was new. It boils down to: "All the Aberrations are basically cordoned off to being chaos monsters and all the fiends are either stuck playing toady to the cat-heads or they're shuffled off in the planes. Everything is so sequestered in its little corners. And the PLANES. The PLANES MY GOD. Either do Planescape justice or DON'T DO IT AT ALL." There were various threats against Keiths' life, et al. Well I can easily refute this argument all because, yes, I have studied the book and actually know what I'm talking about. All the Aberrations are basically cordoned off to being chaos monsters Chaos monsters? I'll assume by this they're refering to Xoriat but Xoriat isn't chaos at all! It's madness (points to Charel's above picture) and horror in every sense of the word. It isn't random it's just beyond scope of mortal minds. Also: Keith himself has said that not all aberrations come from Xoriat and a good example is the write up on Aboleths being spawn of Khyber or Elans being Quori related. all the fiends are either stuck playing toady to the cat-heads or they're shuffled off in the planes. Funny cause I could have sworn that demons from FR and Greyhawk were... I dunno... suffled off in the planes as well. :P Also yes. Raja's aren't Rakshasa's they're practically the only things in Eberron with the status of a deity. Everything is so sequestered in its little corners. What? People have spent hundreads of hours on this board argueing over where a specific creature or outsider comes from! I mean hell there's an entire continent (Xen'drik) that could have ANYTHING inside of it. And the PLANES. The PLANES MY GOD. Either do Planescape justice or DON'T DO IT AT ALL. 1. Well Excuuuuuuuuse me princess for trying to take things in a different direction. Sorry if you're too deeply routed in tradition and classic DnD to get your head out of your a** but frankly not all of us really see a problem with the planes. 2. As Charels said, why hasn't Dragonlance (or the new FR for that matter) gotten crap for this?
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-26-07, 11:53 AM	So many Dales, but no Chip n' Dales. http://images-cdn01.associatedcontent.com/150_0000015969_0000054728.gif
Charles Phipps 09-26-07, 12:33 PM	Oh, FR did get crap for leaving the Great Wheel. Even more then Eberron.
DragoonDarkfire 09-26-07, 12:43 PM	Oh, FR did get crap for leaving the Great Wheel. Even more then Eberron. I didn't know people loved Planescape that much. 0_0
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-26-07, 12:56 PM	I didn't know people loved Planescape that much. 0_0 Oh man. You would be surprised. Some folks are insane for it. Planescape fanboys are a hearty breed.
TiwazTyrsfist 09-26-07, 01:47 PM	Yeah, Planescape fans are more rabid than most. My Fiance, for example, is a big planescape fan and has only ever run planescape games. Some start in certain settings, but they are ALL Planescape games within the first game. She took it as a personal affront when I told he that Eberron is severed both from the great wheel and outside the Phlogiston streams for Spelljammer.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-26-07, 01:50 PM	Yeah, Planescape fans are more rabid than most. My Fiance, for example, is a big planescape fan and has only ever run planescape games. Some start in certain settings, but they are ALL Planescape games within the first game. She took it as a personal affront when I told he that Eberron is severed both from the great wheel and outside the Phlogiston streams for Spelljammer. Three words man: Grounds. For. Divorce. At least if you're a Planescape fan.
eehamburg 09-26-07, 02:38 PM	http://images-cdn01.associatedcontent.com/150_0000015969_0000054728.gif This is just wrong ... just ... so very wrong.
Kid SixXx 09-26-07, 02:47 PM	2. As Charels said, why hasn't Dragonlance (or the new FR for that matter) gotten crap for this? Most of the FR Hardcore Faithful have already written volumes about how much they despise the new cosmology. THERE IS NO MORE LIMBO!! HOW WILL MY 2000TH LEVEL WIZARD SUBJUGATE THE SLAAD??? I assume that many prayers have been sent up to God asking for the painful demise of Sean K. Reynolds for daring to kill the Great Wheel and nixxing the whole Drow items turn to dust thing. FR folks raised so much hell that Drowcrafting was retro-retconned after SKR was released from the company.
Charles Phipps 09-26-07, 03:54 PM	Yeah, my explanation to my group was rather divided. Group: What do we do with all these Books for the Main Line!? Me: Ehhhhhh read em? Group: Grrr. Me: Sorry. Group: What about Spelljammers? Me: This may shock you, but I think Eberron has actual space.
DragoonDarkfire 09-26-07, 04:38 PM	I know there's a lesson here. Maybe "Things change. Deal with it." or "Shift happens." or possibly "Don't like it stop whining and do your own goddam thing." Or maybe even "Your game is not the most important thing in the world to WOTC and they're bigger concern is trying to appeal to a larger audience." Pick your favorite.
Rechan 09-26-07, 04:41 PM	I didn't know people loved Planescape that much. 0_0 Over on the ENworld boards, people are going near apocalyptic over the fact that WotC is tossing The Great Wheel/The Blood War. It's... stunning. I never knew people cared that much about all that stuff. But the 1e grognards act like WotC came over to their house and killed their puppy or something. But then again, all I have to do is go over to the Setting Advancing 2 Years (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=915020) thread on the 4e boards here and see Eberron fans do the same. ;)
DragoonDarkfire 09-26-07, 04:45 PM	Over on the ENworld boards, people are going near apocalyptic over the fact that WotC is tossing The Great Wheel/The Blood War. It's... stunning. I never knew people cared that much about all that stuff. But the 1e grognards act like WotC came over to their house and killed their puppy or something. But then again, all I have to do is go over to the Setting Advancing 2 Years (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=915020) thread on the 4e boards here and see Eberron fans do the same. ;) Yea I think people are a bit TOO pesimistic over change...
Charles Phipps 09-26-07, 04:49 PM	I understand Troy Denning is writing a set of novels where the Sorcerer Kings are resolved, water is made abundant due to a magical rainstorm, and everything is hopeful again! Dark Sun Fans: :weep:
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-26-07, 04:56 PM	Yea I think people are a bit TOO pesimistic over change... Yep. I'm keeping my mind open and my spirits up, about that. Well, about 4e in general. For everything they do that I am iffy about, there are two things that I applaud them for. D&D is finally going to WotC's game, and that is going to involve a lot of changes. But, going back on topic, yes, it's true that some Eberron fanboys can be just as rabid as any other. But not all of them are crazy. I'm an Eberron fanboy but I also really enjoy Dragonlance and FR.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-26-07, 04:57 PM	I understand Troy Denning is writing a set of novels where the Sorcerer Kings are resolved, water is made abundant due to a magical rainstorm, and everything is hopeful again! Dark Sun Fans: :weep: Wow. Seriously? Yeah, kind of sucks to be a Dark Sun purist these days.
Salla 09-26-07, 05:20 PM	Geez. I've barely even HEARD of Planescape or Spelljammer; the first is only because of an article on an old Duelist magazine, the second because my wife had some of the comics that DC put out based on it. So, Great Wheel, meh.
Kid SixXx 09-26-07, 05:28 PM	Over on the ENworld boards, people are going near apocalyptic over the fact that WotC is tossing The Great Wheel/The Blood War. It's... stunning. I never knew people cared that much about all that stuff. But the 1e grognards act like WotC came over to their house and killed their puppy or something. But then again, all I have to do is go over to the Setting Advancing 2 Years (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=915020) thread on the 4e boards here and see Eberron fans do the same. ;) Yeah, I could really care less about a 2 year time advance, as long as the things that have remained unexplained stay relatively unexplained. I think it'd actually be nice to see how well or how poorly post-Last War reconstruction is going on. But holy smokes, some folks are waaay too wrapped up in planar politics. Plane hopping was usually a sign that characters should probably be retired, but some grognards like moving gods with stats around like chess pieces. I blame the Time of Troubles.
Charles Phipps 09-26-07, 05:30 PM	To be fair, there's a lot of stuff that's wrapped up in some campaign settings. Forgotten Realms seems like Planar Politics is remote, until you realize that dozens of books explicitly use them plus the active nature of the gods. Also, all those Nine Hells and Abyss books plus the BOVD are useless now. Not to mention the Manual of the Planes.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-26-07, 05:48 PM	To be fair, there's a lot of stuff that's wrapped up in some campaign settings. Forgotten Realms seems like Planar Politics is remote, until you realize that dozens of books explicitly use them plus the active nature of the gods. Also, all those Nine Hells and Abyss books plus the BOVD are useless now. Not to mention the Manual of the Planes. Useless in 4e. 3.5 will still exist, and I intend to keep playing it, in addition to 4e.
Toloran 09-26-07, 05:51 PM	Useless in 4e. 3.5 will still exist, and I intend to keep playing it, in addition to 4e. Exactly. It isn't like 3.5 is going to suddenly cease to exist once 4e comes out. Fluff you don't like in 4e Eberron? Don't use it! Just use the 4e crunch.
cloud213 09-26-07, 05:51 PM	I only heard people say they hate Wizards of the Coast and the 3.5 thing.
eehamburg 09-26-07, 06:00 PM	I only heard people say they hate Wizards of the Coast and the 3.5 thing. Where did you hear this and what was the context?
DrowBattlemind 09-26-07, 07:04 PM	Y'know, when Eberron first came out, I was one of those folks who disdained Eb. Between the lightning rail, Warforged, the different planes, and the Rakshasa, it was just too different, and the first two seemed (to me) to be too steampunk for my taste. Then, because it was the only setting left (besides Mahasarpa) that universally embraced psionics, my DM convinced me to give it a try. The campaign was... odd... but that was due to the DM, not the setting. A few things happened to change my mind, however. First, realizing that when it came to the 'Old West' feel of the lightning rail was nothing compared to the six-gun slingin' White Paladins of Murlynd, in Greyhawk. Second, in the Realms, there was a character in the comic book who was a Wizard trapped in the form of an Iron Golem. Third, Eberron has a few things in common with one of my favorite Image comic-book, Battle Chasers. WTF was I doing dissing Eberron??? :doh: Fourth, Lurking on the 4E and 3.5 Eberron boards, I like the fact that the Eberron posters here seem to have a distinct lack of grognard syndrome. Folks are polite, and don't fly off the handle if someone else's opinion differs from their own or ask questions about various aspects of the setting. Four-point-fifth, the Hellcow himself, Keith Baker, posts to these boards and has personally addressed some of my misperceptions and foibles, and has always (so far) acted like the soul of gentility as far as my concerns were. Dude, you rock! Not many setting creators do that, and its way cool of you to do so. :thumbsup: Slowly but surely (and sometimes, rather squirrelly) the settings grown on me. My wife likes the setting even more than I do, she plays a Talenta halfling barbarian/rogue. And finally, as Count Nerindil Van Seraph posted over on the motivational poster thread put it: Play Eberron (Our Drow Still Have Dignity.)
cloud213 09-26-07, 07:23 PM	Where did you hear this and what was the context?It was on a d&d thread and I forgot where it was.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-26-07, 07:31 PM	Oh! I've been quoted! And I love it! :D
Kid SixXx 09-26-07, 07:45 PM	It isn't like 3.5 is going to suddenly cease to exist once 4e comes out. It will for me. Those books have trade-in credit, ya know.
Toloran 09-26-07, 08:35 PM	It will for me. Those books have trade-in credit, ya know. What I meant is, there is nothing forcing you to switch. Just like how people still play AD&D even though newer editions are out.
Belabras 09-26-07, 08:39 PM	Oh man. You would be surprised. Some folks are insane for it. Planescape fanboys are a hearty breed. That'd be me. I'm able to put my love aside to make room for Eberron though. What's funny is that a lot of the things Planescape was good at doing (political intrigue and infighting, really cool urban settings, Shades of Grey alignment stuff) Eberron does as well. *goes back to playing with his Rings of Zerthimon*
Charles Phipps 09-26-07, 09:04 PM	Yeah, Planescape's Sigil is pretty close to how I run Sharn. There's also the same sense of humor and slightly Punk Fantasy feel to it.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-26-07, 09:08 PM	From what I understand about Planescape (not as much as I'd like to), it has a lot of things in common with Eberron, in terms of flavor. Lot's of intrigue and suspense. Eberron is just on a smaller (way smaller) scale.
Ogiwan 09-26-07, 09:51 PM	I dunno, I think Planescape is way too bizzare, and Eberron is a lot more graspable. However, I do have to say that Planescape: Torment is one of the greatest games I've ever played. "What can change the nature of a man?" When they make an Eberron game, I hope it's as.....amazing as Torment. Also, I wonder how much Keith Baker's presence on the boards, as well as the various articles on the Wizards site, have shaped the acceptance of Eberron as a setting amongst the D&D community......
Jürgen Hubert 09-27-07, 07:23 AM	I have encountered such hatred numerous times on the internet, on numerous forums. Sometimes it is directed against Eberron, sometimes against the Forgotten Realms. Sometimes it is directed against D&D, sometimes against GURPS. In the end, I have concluded that such hatred is pretty much irrelevant, and thus can be safely ignored - and isn't there are saying that the less important the subject matter, the more heated the flames will be? If you must engage in such discussions, I'd like to advise the following: Be as calm and logical as you can, and don't use the opportunity to take swipes at other settings, since that will make you as bad as them. You won't necessarily convince these people that you are right, but you might convince others reading the same threads.
Bluenose 09-28-07, 09:31 AM	To be fair, there's a lot of stuff that's wrapped up in some campaign settings. Forgotten Realms seems like Planar Politics is remote, until you realize that dozens of books explicitly use them plus the active nature of the gods. Also, all those Nine Hells and Abyss books plus the BOVD are useless now. Not to mention the Manual of the Planes. That's one of the things I don't quite understand. Why are they useless? I really can't see much dfference myself in the planar setup. There's always been a "travel through the astral to get to another plane" aspect since 1st edition, and there was nothing in the article which made it impossible to use the Nine Hells or Abyss exactly as they were before - you have got infinite space in the Astral Sea to fit everything in, after all :) . I always took the giant pizza and christmas tree ornament versions as a metaphor and told my players that was how people understood it rather than a reflection of an objective reality, and my homebrew campaign anyway used a totally different arrangement. I don't think there's as much difference in the Lords of Hell and Demon Princes as it seems at first glance. Asmodeus being a deity leaves him able to grant spells, just as he could before. Perhaps the one thing that has me scratching my head is the change to succubi/erinyes, and I may just ignore that carefully.
Hellcow 09-28-07, 01:42 PM	Four-point-fifth, the Hellcow himself, Keith Baker, posts to these boards and has personally addressed some of my misperceptions and foibles, and has always (so far) acted like the soul of gentility as far as my concerns were. That's just on the boards. In person, I'm sitting at the keyboard shouting "YOU IDIOTS! STOP RUINING MY CREATION!" in my best Ren & Stimpy voice. Then my wife gives me a shot, I type something polite in a drug-induced haze, and the cycle begins again. Seriously, however, it is back to the "Some people hate stuff", whether it's Eberron, the Realms, whatever. What always makes me sad is seeing people who ARE mistaken about the setting - who don't understand what it is - but won't take a closer look because they've already decided to hate it. There was a poster on the "What Defines Eberron" thread earlier who was a classic "I hate Eberron because if it wasn't for Eberron, WotC would have done a 3.5 update of my favorite old setting"... when that simply wasn't an option on the table. The setting search was the setting search, and WotC didn't say "Send in your world idea, or a vote to bring back an old setting." Ah well. And Planescape: Torment is indeed one of the best CRPGs out there, along with KotOR.
Paulon 09-28-07, 02:01 PM	That's just on the boards. In person, I'm sitting at the keyboard shouting "YOU IDIOTS! STOP RUINING MY CREATION!" in my best Ren & Stimpy voice. Then my wife gives me a shot, I type something polite in a drug-induced haze, and the cycle begins again. You really want to stay out of the Forgotten Freedom threads then, for the sake of your blood pressure. ;)
ORC_Paradox 09-28-07, 06:41 PM	It doesn't take many sour grapes to make whine. Seriously, how many Eberron haters submitted their world for the contest? I'll bet most of them did, and because they didn't win, Eberron must be no good.
LoneStranger 09-28-07, 07:56 PM	I find it amazing that I'm a minority here (other posters in this are actually included for once, someone write this down) in the fact that I don't go for only one setting and try to solidly defend it by mindlessly bashing everything else. I've always had the opinion of "you do what you want to do, I'll do what I want to do, and if they happen to meet up, that works". Does this mean I like every game and every setting? Nope. Will I fault someone else for liking that setting? Depending on how well I know them not seriously. But if they still want to do something in that setting I won't stop them. I find myself to be very fortunate to have played a wide variety of games from a lot of publishers (don't worry, WotC is in there too) so I've been able to take a wide view of what works and what doesn't work (at least to me) as far as settings and special rules quirks and the like go.
Charles Phipps 09-28-07, 08:08 PM	No one likes to admit their setting has flaws. Let's face it, I'm a huge Ravenloft fan and Planescape fan but try telling either that their cosmologies are hopelessly broken to the point of no ability to suspend disbelief. They'd think you killed Christ.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-28-07, 10:24 PM	Well LoneStranger, I will say that there are a few things in Eberron that irk me. For instance, the fixation on Xen' Drik kind of annoys me. I mean, yes there are lots of things to be done in Xen' Drik to be sure, but there is so much on Khorvaire to explore. That same thing goes for Sarlona. I want Demon Waste supplement! Let's see... honestly, I can't really think of anything about Eberron that I don't like, at the moment.
Charles Phipps 09-28-07, 10:40 PM	I can think of 10 things that bug me. 1. The fact players can be ridiculously powerful but no guidelines for changing the setting. 2. There's countless conspiracies but what they actually control is rarely detailed. 3. It's all well and good to say 'The mourning is caused by whatever you say' but I don't see why its such a big deal on the Mark of Death. 4. The population numbers are ridiculously low for a place its size. 5. I don't get the importance of the Dragonmarks. 6. The afterlife is depressing and morbid. 7. A great deal of talk is spent on how its Pulp but less ways of saying how to invoke the feeling. 8. The Lords of Dust lack panache to the Archdevils and Demon Princes. 9. The Cults of the Dragon Below seem rather generic and the rules that they're ALL mad seems to be a cop out. 10. The lack of advancement in the setting is silly to me.
Salla 09-28-07, 10:57 PM	I can think of 10 things that bug me. 1. The fact players can be ridiculously powerful but no guidelines for changing the setting. 2. There's countless conspiracies but what they actually control is rarely detailed. 3. It's all well and good to say 'The mourning is caused by whatever you say' but I don't see why its such a big deal on the Mark of Death. 4. The population numbers are ridiculously low for a place its size. 5. I don't get the importance of the Dragonmarks. 6. The afterlife is depressing and morbid. 7. A great deal of talk is spent on how its Pulp but less ways of saying how to invoke the feeling. 8. The Lords of Dust lack panache to the Archdevils and Demon Princes. 9. The Cults of the Dragon Below seem rather generic and the rules that they're ALL mad seems to be a cop out. 10. The lack of advancement in the setting is silly to me. 1. That's what DMs do ... adjucate the results of player actions. If that action includes, say, levelling Sharn, the DM figures out what happens. 2. That's for the DM to figure out. 3. I don't see where those two connect ... 4. A century of war will thin out any nation's population density. 5. They're part of the Draconic Prophecy ... and since they don't appear on Dragons, that kinda ticks off the dragons. In what way they're part of the Prophecy, is for the DM to decide. 6. You're DEAD, you're not supposed to enjoy it. 7. Wikipedia is your friend. 8. That's a matter of opinion. I prefer the Lords of Dust. 9. Again, the DM has all the room to play with such that he likes. 10. This is a good thing because the DM is free to do what he wants with the setting instead of being tied to novels or timeline updates. You call 'em bugs, I call 'em features.
Charles Phipps 09-28-07, 10:59 PM	You call 'em bugs, I call 'em features. Which is an attitude I can't get behind at all.
Hellcow 09-29-07, 12:53 AM	I can think of 10 things that bug me. Certainly valid concerns; some of which I hope will be addressed in future material. And I know the point here is to say "Eberron isn't perfect", which is true. With that said, I'll throw in my two crowns on some of them... It's all well and good to say 'The mourning is caused by whatever you say' but I don't see why its such a big deal on the Mark of Death. I'm assuming you mean "I don't see why the writers insist on not putting out official stats for the Mark of Death." If this is correct, then it's because we wanted to have one more tool for my campaign to be different than yours. I may decide that Vol can get the mark back, or that someone else does, and it's insanely powerful. You may decide that it just comes back and it's on par with the other twelve. I personally likel having some flexibility for different DMs to take things in different directions. 5. I don't get the importance of the Dragonmarks. This is something I feel really isn't made clear enough in the ECS. Dragonmarks, in and of themselves, aren't that important. You can make whole once per day, good for you. Dragonmark focus items are EXTREMELY important. Message stones. Creation forges. Altars of healing. All of these things form the foundation of modern society, and can only be used by people who have the mark. The central principle that's not spelled out - that makes this all fall into place - is the idea that wizards and artificers can't just make any magic item that they want to. It took centuries to go from wand to eternal wand, from lightning rail to airship. Magic is treated like a science - and that means innovation is a challenge. And enhancing a dragonmark ability is easier than producing the effect on its own. So the reason Sivis controls the communication network is because people haven't found a way to make message stones that DON'T require the possession of the Mark of Scribing (or if someone has, Sivis successfully surpressed the knowledge). So the power of the dragonmarked houses isn't the spell-like abilities the marks grant them - it's the fact that the marks are needed to use focus items, and many of the focus items perform key functions in society. And that power has in turn granted them enough power to try to eliminate anyone who would challenge them. But I do think this is something that hasn't been made clear enough, and that many authors don't get. The afterlife is depressing and morbid. The immediate afterlife - Dolurrh - certainly is. This is an intentional part of the setting. Death sucks - don't die. With that said, many of the religions believe that Dolurrh is the begining of the journey, not the end. The Sovereign Host believes that there is a realm of the Sovereigns that lies beyond any mortal plane, something you can only reach when your soul has been cleansed by Dolurrh. The Silver Flame beleives that you can join in harmony with the Flame. The Valenar believe that your spirit can live on in your descendants. The point is that if there IS a realm of the Sovereigns, there is simply no way to visit it in this life... meaning that we don't truly KNOW what happens after death, any more than we do in this world. Essentially, what happens in the time in which you can be raised in depressing - but you have a chance to escape it. Once you're really gone, you may very well have gone to a better place. At least, that's what the Sovereign Speaker will tell you. The Lords of Dust lack panache to the Archdevils and Demon Princes. I'd argue that it's hard to compare given the imbalance of published material between the two, and the fact that the archdevils in particular are rooted in Christian doctrine, adding even more tools to work with. I love the Lords of Dust and the overlords of the First Age, and the long struggle between fiend and giant. But I've got lots of material on this no one else has ever seen. I like the interplay between the Wyrmbreaker and the Conclave of Argonnessen, the threat of the Rage of War and the Heart of Winter. Personally, I prefer to avoid the archdevils precisely BECAUSE of their Christian roots; I find it strange to use them in world without Christ or the Lord of Hosts. It's the same reason I prefer not to use Greek or Norse gods in a world that doesn't actually have the cultures that spawned them. I love mythology, and I grew up on Norse myth and legend - which is why I DON'T actually want Thor in Eberron. It's not his world. But as I said, I have built up more myths around the Sovereigns and the Overlords - so I don't feel the absence as much as someone working solely with published material. The Cults of the Dragon Below seem rather generic and the rules that they're ALL mad seems to be a cop out. I'm not sure I follow this. Where are there rules stating that they're all mad? Page 230 of the ECS says merely that they are "often" insane (though always dangerous). A large percentage of the population of the Shadow Marches has an attachment to some form of the CoDB, including a significant portion of House Tharashk (and a Tharashk triumvir). I think the real question is how you define "madness". There are families in the Shadow Marches that believe that there is a paradise in the center of the earth and that they must earn their passage to this realm through blood sacrifice. There are many who would consider this madness, or at least disturbing. But in all other ways, these people are perfectly rational and capable of logical action; they aren't raving, frothing lunatics. Another branch has an affinity for aberrations and its members seek to replace their weak flesh with aberrant grafts; it's something that's very disturbing to others, but members of this cult may not even have any tendancy towards sociopathic behavior - all they want is to be left alone to pursue their quest. I consider the CotDB to be the most diverse of the religions of Khorvaire. It's certainly something that is often disturbing to outsiders, and members are often prone to sociopathic behavior. But full-blown schizophrenia or other forms of insanity that would make it truly impossible for them to lead normal lives among others are still the extremes. The main thing is that the family who lives in the swamps of the Shadow Marches and never harms anyone isn't likely to BE seen by PCs - because they'd rather be left alone with their beliefs. The lack of advancement in the setting is silly to me. Just curious - by this do you mean metaplot advancement? Anyhow, I understand that you may not have meant to start a discussion on these topics, but what can I say, it's in my blood.
Charles Phipps 09-29-07, 01:53 AM	Just curious - by this do you mean metaplot advancement? Anyhow, I understand that you may not have meant to start a discussion on these topics, but what can I say, it's in my blood. There's a difference, in my mind, between Metaplot and Advancement. Metaplot has gotten its bad reputation for the Legend of the Five Rings and White Wolf Studios drastic game changing events that result in a lot of games being unnecessarilly effected by ridiculous changes. The Scorpion Clan is exiled, the Ravnos are destroyed, the Tremere Antribu are decimated and so on. On the reverse end is Eberron and the idea that it's 998 and it's never going to be 999. For me, I tend to think that this actually inhibits Dungeon Masters rather than liberates them. I, for one, would be interested in knowing a good deal more about possible future events that might or might not occur in the setting. There's a big difference between "King Boranal dies of a heart attack in 1007" and "Aundair is destroyed." The former can be a big source of new information and adventure possibilities while the later pretty much throws out the baby with the Bath Water. I doubt, Hellcow, that anyone wants to see THE NEXT WAR in print with an ending that is entirely resolved by book characters ala Dragonlance (though it'd sell a lot of copies). However, I think that a book detailing THE NEXT WAR as *HOW IT MIGHT OCCUR* would be a tremendously useful resource for Gamemasters who want to talk about the possibilities about how it could resume in story. Let's take Prince Oargev's Rebellion that's only an adventure seed in the main setting. That's all well and good but if we're not going to see any new material on the subject then it's a rather troublesome little subject since we dont know enough about the chain of events that would follow to run it accurately. On my case, the fact that Eberron is such a politically charged setting, that means you need MORE information on future events rather than less. I'd love a mega-module called The Cyrean Rebellion that offers the chance to redraw Breland's map. In my case, barring asking you on the forums, I don't know how Breland would response and what chance (if any) Oargev has of keeping Northern Breland as Cyre 2.0. I could make it up but I like having it in my hands.
TheKeyofE 09-29-07, 02:01 AM	10. The lack of advancement in the setting is silly to me. I like not having a metaplot, mostly because the metaplot in other games has bugged me. In Shadowrun, I liked playing in the year 2070, and I didn't like that new books (both rulebooks and novels) came out every year that kept pushing the year back further. In Forgotten Realms (and this is completely ignoring all my other gripes about that setting), the metaplot seemed too convoluted and hard to follow. Far too many novels to read, half of which weren't worth reading. Far too many different characters all trying to do different things, that I felt like there was no room for the PCs. I think the history of FR is interesting, but the metaplot just doesn't seem worth following to me. I never really got into Dragonlance either for the same reason. I don't even want to talk about the Star Wars Expanded Universe. I liked BattleTech/Mechwarrior up until the end of the Clan invasion. After that, with the Houses teaming up against the clans, all the political intrigue (which was, ironically, not very intriguing), all the new tech basically coming out of nowhere, too many new mechs to keep track of, etc., it just really got out of hand. Then they jumped the metaplot ahead like 50 years, and I just stopped paying attention. Someone at Wizkids said they jumped the metaplot because the novelists had basically written themselves into a corner. I see that happening with most metaplots; eventually the writers run out of interesting things to write. So you either jump the metaplot and start over with new characters, or you succumb to Dragonball Z syndrome. So that's one of the things I like about Eberron. No metaplot advancement to keep track of. Sure, there's tons of history to read up on, and tons of loose ends in the story to be tied, but I'd rather tie them myself than have someone else tell me how they're supposed to be tied. Now, you might say to me "If you don't like the metaplot, ignore it," and you'd probably be right. But frankly I'd just rather not have to. EDIT: After reading your response to Hellcow, I can see what you mean about advancement. I think that new books that detail how things *might* happen could be cool, but I think those would work better as big adventure modules (kind of like Drow of the Underdark or City of the Spider Queen from FR) than rulebooks. Also, the rumor is that in 4E, they're advancing Eberron by 2 years, quite possibly for the reasons you brought up. And the rumor is they're advancing Forgotten Realms by 10 years for the reasons I brought up. :P
Charles Phipps 09-29-07, 02:28 AM	Which brings me a bit to Problem 11#. 11# Adventure Modules lack ambition I love the Eberron adventure modules, they're just Jim Dandy. However, I realized that they're all very Point A to Point B to Point A again. Let's start with the Schema arc in that the player characters spend 4 adventures gathering together a schematic for a king of ancient Giant Artificial Intelligence. Same thing for Eyes of the Lich Queen and the Dragon's Eye. What is the end result? Fun for all of the players....and not a damn thing changes. It's weird, Eberron is the game where the player characters are the Big Ass HeroesTM. Yet, in Planescape you could remove teleportation from all the Taanari/Baatezu in the Blood War and totally screw them over (admittedly, I never figured out how you were supposed to survive having two Planes now righteously ticked at you). In Vecna Lives you could save the entire damn world. Forgotten Realms has you able to rescue Waukeen and take some part in smacking down the Dark Triad. Ravenloft had pretty much every adventure Module change the course of the land's history. I guess I expected something at the end of Grasp of the Emerald Claw to be like this.... By retrieving the Schema, if the players turn it over to Merrix D'Cannith, he quickly becomes head of House Cannith. If they choose to destroy it then they have crippled his ambitions and made a permanent enemy since he devoted so much of his resources to finding it. The Emerald Claws losses in this adventure break its power in Breland Something small like that. *** RE: Previous Objections Hellcow's explanations for most of the others were very helpful. I guess I just figured the Dragonmarks were meant to be more "epic" because of the flavor text The Dragon Prophecy is GREATLY effected by Dragonmarked individuals who influence it by their existence or something to that effect. Also, Faiths of Eberron is where I got all the information on every Cultist having to be nutso. I know they're supposed to be mostly insane degenerates ala Lovecraft but I figured some would want the very real power for its own sake. 12# Confusion about Khyber Demons vs. Planar Ones Is my last real objection. I felt Shavarath added some serious confusion as to where Demons are supoosed to come from in Eberron. I'm okay with all of them supposedly hailing from Khyber (the literal Underworld) but Shavarath having its own identical demons made me wonder a little bit. But yes, these are really minor nitpicks.
Rechan 09-29-07, 03:26 AM	My issues spring generally from the lack of information on X Y and Z, and the over emphasis on A, B and C. For instance, I have a hard time coming up with plots that involve the Lords of Dust, Aurum and Dreaming Dark. 1) I realize the Aurum are "Merchant Robber Barons" and do bad things out of greed... but that's all I know about them. There aren't any adventure seeds suggested. They're rarely emphasized. 2) The Lords of Dust feel Bigger Than Life. They're implied to not really care about mortals at all, unless in passing. So aside from plots to free the Rajah, I'm not sure what adventures could involve them. 3) As for the Dreaming Dark, I have trouble conceptualizing them. I understand them, but a plot they're involved with, I have more trouble. More importantly, one thing that doesn't make sense to me is... if the PCs become a problem for the DD (Namely, if they have stopped 2-3 plots the DD have begun), why would the DD not pull all the stops to squash the PCs? They are a vast, evil empire that has untold resources. Why shouldn't they use it to obliterate a threat? Meanwhile: 4) Too much focus on Sharn. Yes, I get it, Sharn is cool. But out of 11 Dungeon adventures, 2 take place outside of Sharn. 5) I think the Daelkyr and Aberrations get too much attention. I understand they're cool, but turn the attention on other things. For instance, the Cultists of the Dragon Below are always worshiping Aberrations. Where are the worshipers of Khyber itself? Khyber is, after all, a force unto itself. The Rajahs were birthed in Khyber, and are currently bound to Khyber; where are the cultists to imprisoned Rajah? Aside from the Rajah bound in the Silver Flame, or the various tribes in the Demon Wastes, there's no mention of these guys. 6) Not enough info on the planes. Especially given that various demons and devils have been shuffled to different planes, I'm not sure how to handle Demons and Devils in Eberron.
Charles Phipps 09-29-07, 03:34 AM	3) As for the Dreaming Dark, I have trouble conceptualizing them. I understand them, but a plot they're involved with, I have more trouble. More importantly, one thing that doesn't make sense to me is... if the PCs become a problem for the DD (Namely, if they have stopped 2-3 plots the DD have begun), why would the DD not pull all the stops to squash the PCs? They are a vast, evil empire that has untold resources. Why shouldn't they use it to obliterate a threat? I read Hellcow's vast amount of information on the Dreaming Dark but Sarlona for me pretty much handled it. Basically, they're a bunch of evil guys who cause evil for Evil's sake and to increase their power. They're not any less or more powerful than any other group other than the control their particular Mordor. For me, I'd like to see more information on The Lords of Dust and Aurrum because I think the DD are overexposed. For instance, the Cultists of the Dragon Below are always worshiping Aberrations. Where are the worshipers of Khyber itself? Khyber is, after all, a force unto itself. The Rajahs were birthed in Khyber, and are currently bound to Khyber; where are the cultists to imprisoned Rajah? Aside from the Rajah bound in the Silver Flame, or the various tribes in the Demon Wastes, there's no mention of these guys. For me, I'd be interested in seeing the differences between the various cults. The "Cult of the Dragon Below" is a misnomer because I doubt anyone really worships Khyber all that much amongst them. I liked the Dragon Below Trilogy because we got a specific cult and it fleshed out. But yeah, you could do a book on the various Eberron Mythos Cults like the old Call of Cthulhu series did. Tell us about the Brotherhood of the Fuscia Sign that worships the King in Fuscia. How about the Dagonic Order that worships the Half-Fiendish Kraken that is composed of mostly Kuo-Tao and Sahuagin with an Illithid head? I mean, give us names and rituals.
Rechan 09-29-07, 03:50 AM	because I think the DD are overexposed. True. But yeah, you could do a book on the various Eberron Mythos Cults like the old Call of Cthulhu series did. Tell us about the Brotherhood of the Fuscia Sign that worships the King in Fuscia. How about the Dagonic Order that worships the Half-Fiendish Kraken that is composed of mostly Kuo-Tao and Sahuagin with an Illithid head? I mean, give us names and rituals. Hellcow's article in Dragon #332 did this to a small extent. It tried to touch every aspect of the Cults, but only scratched the surface. It offered adventure seeds/plots, random actions that they might do (They're mad, so cultists might be sent out to find every bent nail in the area). Also a sample cult was given, headed by the Duke of the city of Passage, Aundair. But as I said, I'd like to see some more variety in the Cults, as specified, cults of the Rajah and the Dragon Below himself. I expect a lot of monsters that are native to Khyber worship him.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 09-29-07, 06:35 AM	No metaplot = good idea. I think it's one of Eberron's really strong points that it doesn't try to make the players change their games according to new sourcebooks and novels. I creates a whole lot of problems: - The "homework" part of GMing increases, as he has to keep up on novels and new sourcebooks/adventures. - Campaign time and metaplot advancement time differ. Moving FR ahead a certain amount of ingame time for a certain amount of outgame time... blah. At least our campaigns move much, much slower. So what's the point of a plot advancement that doesn't take place in my campaigns anyhow? - It makes the PC's appear insignificant. Example: City of Shades in FR. When I started my campaign, I thought it would be cool adventuring place for higher levels. Before any PC reached a level I deem appropriate for this city, the Elminster-goon-squad already attacked the city and neutralized its thread IIRC. What does the world need PC's for? :rolleyes: In Shadowrun, this was even more obvious - heroes could be found in the novels. No need for the PC's to make the world a better place... And in comparison to the ub0r-"Shadowrunners" presented in the novels, they sucked anyway. So, I ignore the metaplot as a GM... and would much rather read and spent money for something that would help me in my campaign and REDUCE, not INCREASE the amount of preparation I need to GM a fun game. Maps, ready-to-use-NPC's which actually make sense (example: Jezzt the Lame in FR... *cough* pushover *cough*), maps, encounter/combat setting ideas, maps, visualization aids, and... did I mention maps? The idea about going backwards in campaign time as in "Forge of War" is better, I think. I really liked some ideas presented there - playing a "flashback" adventure, that's a cool way to incorporate new material without breaking MY campaign.
Ogiwan 09-29-07, 09:46 AM	Concerning Metaplot: I'm quite proud to say that I have all of the 7th Sea material, as it's a good setting, and fantastic to swashbuckle in (if you do it right). That said, one of the greatest flaws of 7th Sea is the timeline. It started in a set year, and then they added what happened in other years as the time goes on; this made it hard to surprise the players with big events (like an event equivalent to the French Revolution), or to go off on your own little world arc, or whatever. Also, Game Designer PCs would do uber-heroic things and change the setting. I like Eberron having no metaplot. However, I would like options; frankly, I think a book of metaplot options (some or all of them conflicting) would be just dandy. You could choose the "kit" that has Aundair launch a successful invasion of the Thaliost penninsula. You could have one where Kaius is killed, or unveiled as a vampire (Thranish crusade?). You could have one where a civil war erupts in Aundair between....oh, the guy who wants the Eldeen and the guy who wants Thaliost. Boranal could (*sob*) die, and the throne could transition to one of his children, or it could go parliamentary. Options, all of which are not "official" timeline, but things that might happen, how they would happen, what opportunities they would offer, and the like. Concerning villians: After reading this thread, i thought, "Hey! Why not a Villians of Eberron book?" Each villanous organization could be presented in two or three ways of their M.O., organization, style, aims, and the like, so the DM could choose (or mix-and-match) to get a V.O. of his liking. Concerning the player's power level, and changing the setting....well, that sort of thing is supposed to be the DM's job. I will agree, though, that having examples of what the PCs can earn would be cool, especially ones that allow them to keep on adventuring. I mean, you could have PCs given a noble title and granted land....but then they'd (presumably) be tied down administrating the land.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 09-29-07, 10:47 AM	Concerning unambitious adventures: I agree with you here. However I think that, because Eberron is still fairly new, the folks at WotC are tentative about doing anything too earth shaking. They are concerned about changing the setting too much. They will do that when it has a big enough following (and with 4e on the horizon that could happen soon). But if they release OPERRATION: Seriously, Kiaus needs to be taken down a notch as the first super adventure, there would be panic in the streets, because Kiaus getting dusted just became cannon. I'd buy OSKntbtdaN, though. It sounds like fun.
Ogiwan 09-29-07, 12:38 PM	Kaius got dusted? Damn it! He rules!
Hellcow 09-29-07, 02:05 PM	I guess I just figured the Dragonmarks were meant to be more "epic" because of the flavor text The Dragon Prophecy is GREATLY effected by Dragonmarked individuals who influence it by their existence or something to that effect. I'd actually be curious as to the source of this comment, if you can find it. IMO, dragonmarked individuals don't influence the Prophecy so much as they may be tools of it, or simply used as a way of reading it. The Draconic Prophecy sidebar on page 130 of the ECS says "For whatever reason, the Prophecy has apparently decided to reveal a portion of itself through the humans and their kin." This is echoed in the Dragonmarks and the Draconic Prophecy sidebar of Dragonmarked (page 8), which says "Just as a shaman reads meaning into the random patterns of bone chips, a student of the Prophecy can dredge meaning from the presence of particular dragonmarks in a specific location." In that way, a dragonmark is sort of like a rune. It has mystical power and significance. If you know how to read runes, you can potentially study a group of runes to gain insight into the future. But it's still a tool. The rune doesn't CREATE the future - it helps you read it. There's tens or even hundreds of thousands of dragonmarked people in Khorvaire. Dragonmarks always have prophetic significance to those who understand it. A FEW may be chosen for a special destiny, or have the ability to direct the Prophecy down a particular path. But for the most part, they are like letters on a page - a tool allowing others to understand the paths the Prophecy could follow. Dragonmarks hold a mysterious role because of the Prophecy - but their mercantile power is the element that is most important for the typical dragonmarked individual. The connection to the Prophecy is something a DM could explore if he wants, as one more tool to say that a PC is special. PCs are heroes to begin with; a dragonmarked PC may have a specific role to play in the Prophecy, and thus become an object of interest for the dragons or Lords of Dust. Also, Faiths of Eberron is where I got all the information on every Cultist having to be nutso. Well, I don't agree with that, for the reasons I gave above. Personally, I'd recommend that interested people check out the Dragon article I wrote on the subject, as it talks more about the diverse nature of the Cults and range of beliefs and behavior. I felt Shavarath added some serious confusion as to where Demons are supoosed to come from in Eberron. I'm okay with all of them supposedly hailing from Khyber (the literal Underworld) but Shavarath having its own identical demons made me wonder a little bit. Well, it should have been called "The Age of Fiends" to avoid this issue. Most of the spirits of the first age were unique to Eberron; the idea that Khyber also spawned the same sorts of fiends that you can find in Shavarath is my suggestion, and not something I believe is stated in any printed book. With that said, assume that there are overlapping demons. Well, where do you think those demons of Shavarath came from? Dragons of Eberron calls out the fact that the DRAGONS believe that the Progenitors created the outer planes before their battle, and that some planes bear the mark of a particular progenitor over the others. In other words, the reason Khyber could spawn a demon you also find in Shavarath is because Khyber may have spawned that demon when it CREATED Shavarath. At least, that's what a dragon will tell you...
Hellcow 09-29-07, 03:10 PM	For instance, I have a hard time coming up with plots that involve the Lords of Dust, Aurum and Dreaming Dark. I'd love to see a Villains of Eberron book. But I'd also love to see a Planes of Eberron book, books covering the other nations... and with 4E on the horizon, the odds of seeing new books in the near future are low. The Lords of Dust feel Bigger Than Life. They're implied to not really care about mortals at all, unless in passing. So aside from plots to free the Rajah, I'm not sure what adventures could involve them. Have you read the Dragon article on them? The goals section discusses this topic. Furthermore, the key to the Lords of Dust is that their plots to free their rajahs are by necessity indirect. Kashtarhak cares nothing about Galifar, but prophecy says that his lord will be released when a great kingdom is torn apart from within - therefore he will help promote the Last War. The key to the Lords of Dust is that ANYTHING could be part of a quest to release their overlords. Making Cannith split apart. Making Cannith come back together. Ensuring that one of the players gets a particular magic sword, and then uses that sword to, say, kill a vampire king. The players may not SEE the connection to the release of the overlord, which is what makes them dangerous; it's hard to tell when you're being used as a pawn. The second and simpler use of the Lords of Dust is their battle against the dragons. They don't care about humans. But they still love to thwart the plans of Argonnessen. If the players are working with the Chamber (knowingly or not), they can become targets; otherwise, they may simply be caught in the crossfire. More importantly, one thing that doesn't make sense to me is... if the PCs become a problem for the DD (Namely, if they have stopped 2-3 plots the DD have begun), why would the DD not pull all the stops to squash the PCs? They are a vast, evil empire that has untold resources. Why shouldn't they use it to obliterate a threat? Honestly, to me this depends on the nature of the threat posed by the PCs. If the PCs have TRULY threatened their very existence - undermined absolutely everything they are trying to do, leaving them no hope for the future and no reason NOT to do something reckless like launch a full-scale invasion of Khorvaire - then maybe that is what they'll do. However, in general the Dreaming Dark operates with the long goal. Most quori are 400,000 years old. A mortal life is the blink of an eye. They are working towards a goal that they EXPECT to take centuries to accomplish. They're happen to snatch for shortcuts if one appears, but if it doesn't work out, as long as the long-term plan is still in motion there's no need for panic. So: Why no action against PCs? There are two obvious reasons to me. The first is because they intend to use the PCs for some greater purpose. The fact that they haven't destroyed the PCs means that the PCs are more useful to them alive. So the question is, what is that purpose? The second reason to leave PCs alive is because they want vengeance to be slow. Again, they're immortal. What fun is it to just kill someone when you can have them suffer? Why even bother to send a nightmare to the wizard when you can make his LIFE a nightmare? The nature of that vengeance is, of course, in your hands as DM. So think about it. What can you do to them? Who could you mind seed and turn against them? Who could show up and become their most trusted ally, only to turn out to have been possessed from the very begining? Who can suffer from nightmares every single night, threatening to drive them mad? Does the character have any relatives? Lovers? Can their patrons start giving them suicide missions - missions they may survive because they're PCs, but forcing them to question every job? If the PCs have spoiled their plans in the past, simple execution is too easy. Drawing out the suffering is a diversion for the quori - and they could spend decades on the game. It's up to you as DM to decide how to make the PCs pay for their heroism. It's the burden of being heroes... For instance, the Cultists of the Dragon Below are always worshiping Aberrations. Where are the worshipers of Khyber itself? I'm not entirely sure I follow. Page 230 of the ECS notes that "Some listen to the mad whispers of the daelkyr, others revere the bound rakshasa rajahs, while a few directly worship the progenitor wyrm Khyber as the source of these lesser evils." The PGtE echoes this, saying "Modern cultists worship the various entities trapped in Khyber - the rakshasa rajahs, or more commonly the daelkyr." There's a number of reasons that the Xoriat cults are more numerous than the others. The major one is because they've have a greater impact in the past, and are more active in the present. Xoriat is a force that touches every mortal mind - the link is there, waiting to be drawn on. The ECS says "The war against the daelkyr left deep scars on the psyche of the inhabitants of (the Shadow Marches)." On top of that, the are still mobile within Khyber, and still have their followers, like the illithids, spreading their influence on the surface world. So when you compare them, the rajahs were defeated tens of thousands of years before orcs or humans were even aware, and now exist in a dreamlike torpor where they can only work through their prakhutu; while the Xoriat incursion is a far more recent event that left scars on the humanoid civilizations of Khorvaire and whose agents are active within Khyber and even on the surface. Both are powerful forces, and both inspire cults - but the daelkyr have inspired more. As for the aberrations, it's worth noting that not all aberrations are tied to Xoriat; others are simply part of Khyber itself. The Eberron Expanded article on Lords of Madness discusses this point. As noted above, the dragons say that the progenitors shaped the planes; Xoriat is one of the planes that shows the strongest touch of Khyber, so there's always been a bond between the two. where are the cultists to imprisoned Rajah? Aside from the Rajah bound in the Silver Flame, or the various tribes in the Demon Wastes, there's no mention of these guys. They're wherever you want them to be, and if they don't have ties to aberrations, less likely to be seen. Page 230 of the ECS notes that "most cults operate in secret, and members lead perfectly acceptable lives in the light while feeding their vile devotions once darkness falls." The issue is that they don't have mind flayers pushing them to accomplish specific goals, their lords have been asleep before human history began, and they aren't even unified with other cults because they are driven by pure inspiration, rather than codified doctrine. If you want a cult to Sul Khatesh in Arcanix or to the Truth in the Darkness in Sharn, you can certainly make one; it's just that Tul Oreshka's cult isn't likely to be very active, because they have no direct goals that others will see... unless, of course, they are used by one of the Lords of Dust, which comes back to the point above. Otherwise, the aberration cults are more dramatic, and more likely to be seen. (Have you seen the article in Dragon #332?) And as you say, the Cult of the Whispering Flame IS a Cult of the Dragon Below dedicated to one of the imprisoned rajahs - it just doesn't go by the name. And the Carrion Tribes of the Demon Wastes also qualify. Not enough info on the planes. Yeah, no argument there.
Rechan 09-29-07, 06:04 PM	Have you read the Dragon article on them? The goals section discusses this topic. Furthermore, the key to the Lords of Dust is that their plots to free their rajahs are by necessity indirect. Kashtarhak cares nothing about Galifar, but prophecy says that his lord will be released when a great kingdom is torn apart from within - therefore he will help promote the Last War. The key to the Lords of Dust is that ANYTHING could be part of a quest to release their overlords. Making Cannith split apart. Making Cannith come back together. Ensuring that one of the players gets a particular magic sword, and then uses that sword to, say, kill a vampire king. The players may not SEE the connection to the release of the overlord, which is what makes them dangerous; it's hard to tell when you're being used as a pawn. The second and simpler use of the Lords of Dust is their battle against the dragons. They don't care about humans. But they still love to thwart the plans of Argonnessen. If the players are working with the Chamber (knowingly or not), they can become targets; otherwise, they may simply be caught in the crossfire. That helps. The LoD seem less Larger than Life now. :) I was trying to think huge, like "Crash a moon into Eberron's surface" or "Unearth a city-sized Khyber Shard", and so it's a challenge to say 'Where's step 3 in this plot, so PCs can get wind of it and head that way?' So: Why no action against PCs? There are two obvious reasons to me. The first is because they intend to use the PCs for some greater purpose. The fact that they haven't destroyed the PCs means that the PCs are more useful to them alive. So the question is, what is that purpose? The second reason to leave PCs alive is because they want vengeance to be slow. Again, they're immortal. What fun is it to just kill someone when you can have them suffer? That helps too. Once more it's a challenge of conceptualizing small-scale plots that build up to bigger ones. I also feel sort've bad throwing around Mindseed (an 8th level power) at PCs who just are not powerful enough to fight crap That High a level. (I know they'd get mad if they realized they're up against something so overwhelming). But, you do have a point, and it assists in conceptualizing the Quori. I'm not entirely sure I follow. Page 230 of the ECS notes that "Some listen to the mad whispers of the daelkyr, others revere the bound rakshasa rajahs, while a few directly worship the progenitor wyrm Khyber as the source of these lesser evils." The PGtE echoes this, saying "Modern cultists worship the various entities trapped in Khyber - the rakshasa rajahs, or more commonly the daelkyr." Indeed. I've just never seen examples or plots involving Rajah worshipers or Khyber-based cultists. The Daelkyr cultists get all the fanfare in various Eberron resources - the symbiots, the Half-Daelkyr race and the Impure Prince PrC, the novels, at least one adventure, and the Sourcebooks (there was a mention of at least 3 Cults in Khyber's Gate in Sharn, as I recall). The article you wrote for Dragon emphasized the Daelkyr cultists. In other words, Daelkyr get all the press. I'm jealous! ;) The issue is that they don't have mind flayers pushing them to accomplish specific goals, their lords have been asleep before human history began, and they aren't even unified with other cults because they are driven by pure inspiration, rather than codified doctrine. If you want a cult to Sul Khatesh in Arcanix or to the Truth in the Darkness in Sharn, you can certainly make one; it's just that Tul Oreshka's cult isn't likely to be very active, because they have no direct goals that others will see For one thing, I would expect that communities close to imprisoned Rajah would feel the whispers of said Rajah, or at least its dreams. Such as the land above Rak-Tulkhesh having constant fueds and bloodshed. An example: Above/near the imprisonment of the Rajah of Filth and Pestilence (the one revered by the Plaguebarer tribe), a cabal of House Jorasco Nosomatic Chirurgeon might operate, spreading plague to better the House, under the whispers of the Pestilence Fiend. Or said fiend might "call" a the Children of Winter, and they find that their magics are bolstered on this site. The Rajah Katashka could be bound beneath Karnnath, and the presence of the slumbering Rajah might be the biggest contributor to Karnnath''s obsession with undeath, the reason that the Blood of Vol was attracted here in the first place. Also, if Druids venerate Eberron, then where are those that venerate Khyber?
Rechan 09-29-07, 06:09 PM	With that said, assume that there are overlapping demons. Well, where do you think those demons of Shavarath came from? Dragons of Eberron calls out the fact that the DRAGONS believe that the Progenitors created the outer planes before their battle, and that some planes bear the mark of a particular progenitor over the others. In other words, the reason Khyber could spawn a demon you also find in Shavarath is because Khyber may have spawned that demon when it CREATED Shavarath. At least, that's what a dragon will tell you... No fair using an argument from a book that hasn't hit the shelves yet. ;)
Charles Phipps 09-29-07, 06:10 PM	http://spyhunter007.com/Images/indiana_jones_fedora_hat.jpg My hat of Eberron grows at any change! My hat of Eberron grows at no change!
Hellcow 09-29-07, 08:15 PM	I only have a few minutes, but... I also feel sort've bad throwing around Mindseed (an 8th level power) at PCs who just are not powerful enough to fight crap That High a level. (I know they'd get mad if they realized they're up against something so overwhelming). Well, the Dreaming Dark are a serious threat. But I wouldn't unless MS on THEM - I'd use it on their allies. They wouldn't even know until the time came for the trusted friend or relative to turn against them, at which point it's revealed that they were mind seeded eight months ago when the PCs stopped the DD plot. Again, slow vengeance. Wiping out the PC would be easy; making the PC suffer is where artistry comes in. if you're familiar with the X-Men, think about when Mastermind turned Wolverine's fiancee against him. The quori take far more pleasure from inflicting emotional pain than they do just killing someone - they're spirits of nightmare, after all. I've just never seen examples or plots involving Rajah worshipers or Khyber-based cultists... Sure you have. Setting aside the Cult of the Whispering Flame in Thrane, take a look at page 116 of Sharn: City of Towers. It talks about a family that has a close relationship with the rajahs and believes that they will one day be transformed into rajahs themselves. It's not CALLED a "Cult of the Dragon Below", but that's exactly what it is - a family that serves the powers of Khyber, pursuing a ludicrous dream and engaging in sociopathic behavior along the way. No aberrations, no grafts - just devoted service to a power of the Dragon Below. Likewise, I'm sure you'll see more if a novel or sourcebook takes place in the Demon Wastes. With that said, the Daelkyr cultists are the most numerous, for the reasons mentioned above. For one thing, I would expect that communities close to imprisoned Rajah would feel the whispers of said Rajah, or at least its dreams. Such as the land above Rak-Tulkhesh having constant fueds and bloodshed. Certainly - but that's what the LoD article says. It hasn't been called out in a specific adventure so far, sure. But it might be addressed in some upcoming sourcebook I've worked on. Also, if Druids venerate Eberron, then where are those that venerate Khyber? I'm not sure I follow you. Druids don't worship the progenitor dragons as such. There's no druids of Siberys. They worship Eberron specifically (andf in a very abstract form) because Eberron is the natural world. Khyber is the embodiment of the UNNATURAL world, which is why most of the druid orders stand united against aberrations (remember, Khyber was a source of aberrations even before the daelkyr came).
Charles Phipps 09-29-07, 08:47 PM	Artistically speaking, Keith, what's the difference between the Demon Wastes and the Mournland? Both seem like they could pretty much be the Mordor of Eberron with their endless wastelands filled with pure evil. They kinda seem redundant, so I was curious how you see their places in the setting differing.
JayDubya 09-30-07, 01:43 AM	There will always be the new hotness. And there will always be people who have seen enough iterations of new hotness that they will turn away, either out of reflex, out of pocketbook inspired reluctance, out of traditionalism, whatever. I feel for the players of settings that have been abandoned, because I think sooner or later it will happen to us. That said, I love Eberron more than any other setting I've experienced. The setting really meshes with my tastes very well.
Kreistor2 09-30-07, 02:25 AM	Likewise, I'm sure you'll see more if a novel or sourcebook takes place in the Demon Wastes. With that said, the Daelkyr cultists are the most numerous, for the reasons mentioned above. (This message is not directed at Hellcow.) Warhammer and W40K offer a large number of books with excellent examples of this kind of plot. The descent into madness for the protagonist is typical of those settings, which is very Noir. Many of the plots are very aberrant, which works perfectly for both Xoriat and Khyber based stories. Excellent inspiration if you're looking for that kind of thing.
Hellcow 09-30-07, 03:29 AM	Artistically speaking, Keith, what's the difference between the Demon Wastes and the Mournland? Since it seemed off-topic, I've posted my answer in my Livejournal. (http://gloomforge.livejournal.com/)
Egres 09-30-07, 07:31 AM	3) As for the Dreaming Dark, I have trouble conceptualizing them. I understand them, but a plot they're involved with, I have more trouble. More importantly, one thing that doesn't make sense to me is... if the PCs become a problem for the DD (Namely, if they have stopped 2-3 plots the DD have begun), why would the DD not pull all the stops to squash the PCs? They are a vast, evil empire that has untold resources. Why shouldn't they use it to obliterate a threat? Read here (http://www.bossythecow.com/askthedreamingdark7-23.htm): you'll find all the answers you need. This is just a little bit that perfectly answers to your last doubt: WHY ARE WE STILL ALIVE? One problem DMs may have is the question of why the Dreaming Dark doesn't just kill the player characters. If it's so powerful and tricky, if its agents can be anywhere, why doesn't it get a possessed innkeeper to poison their drinks? There are a few factors that play into this. Arrogance is one. Boredom is another. As I said earlier, many Quori are over 350,000 years old. They don't believe that humans can inflict permanent harm upon them. And they expect to be alive long after human enemies die of old age. As such, what appears to be a mortal setback to the PCs may be seen as entertainment to the Quori; it's like a game, and it's nice to finally have an opponent who makes a clever move. As the party claims victory after victory, the Dark may begin to see them as a true threat. But it has time, and is more likely to set up an elaborate form of vengeance – arranging for a hero to fall in love with a princess, mind seeding the princess, and having her betray the hero to his worst enemy – instead of just killing him. Another possibility is that the Dreaming Dark will choose not to turn its full force against the adventurers because it has other plans for them… schemes that are so far-reaching that they may take years to come to pass. The Dreaming Dark might even go so far as to set up schemes with the intention of letting the party foil them, because it wants to build up the reputation of the party, so they'll eventually get invited to the Tain Gala, where they'll meet the princess who… you get the idea. The Dreaming Dark is working on an immense jigsaw puzzle, and it's willing to take years or decades to finish it. If the PCs throw out one piece, there's a hundred others still on the table. And the PCs may BE one of those pieces! One of the key principles of Eberron is that the PCs are destined to be some of the great heroes of the age. The Dreaming Dark may know that – and you don't destroy such useful tools because one of them cut your thumb.
Rauric 09-30-07, 10:05 AM	I had taken a year break due to the birth of my twin boys. When I got back into gaming the only game being played was an Eberron one. I reluctantly agreed to it, picked up 2 books, read the fluff and liked it. I had the campaign book but could barely get through it years before. The additional sourcebooks sold it for me though. I like both settings but I am now running an Eberron game since the setting has given me lots of inspiration.
Edymnion 09-30-07, 01:23 PM	Exactly. It isn't like 3.5 is going to suddenly cease to exist once 4e comes out. Fluff you don't like in 4e Eberron? Don't use it! Just use the 4e crunch.See, thats my main problem with 4e so far. I haven't see any crunch details that I like. If anything, I'll be doing the opposite, taking the fluff from 4e Eberron books and downgrading them back to 3e.There's a difference, in my mind, between Metaplot and Advancement. Metaplot has gotten its bad reputation for the Legend of the Five Rings and White Wolf Studios drastic game changing events that result in a lot of games being unnecessarilly effected by ridiculous changes.Lets not forget that it was advancing metaplot that screwed up the Forgotten Realms as well.On the reverse end is Eberron and the idea that it's 998 and it's never going to be 999.Not true, its already been said that the metaplot is going to advance for 4e. Another thing that I'll be removing from my Eberron games. I'm just hoping that these changes don't get so engrained that removing them is more effort than its worth. If they are, well, I've got plenty of Eberron material now, I'll just drop out and play "oldschool" Eberron for the rest of my days.For me, I tend to think that this actually inhibits Dungeon Masters rather than liberates them. I, for one, would be interested in knowing a good deal more about possible future events that might or might not occur in the setting.See, thats just it though. Once the metaplot advances, its not a possible future, its not even the future, it becomes the present, and all books from then on would have to use that as the basis point. Just like everything for Eberron from now on is going to be using the 4e metaplot advancement with tieflings overrunning the setting, half the dragonmarked houses being kicked out of the PHB, plus whatever other horrors 4e is going to rain down on us.
Charles Phipps 09-30-07, 01:55 PM	Thanks, go ahead and believe Metaplot is always a mistake. I disagree. Eventually, Eberron is going to fully detailed and there's plenty of room to have fun with changing politics.
Label 09-30-07, 03:15 PM	IMHO the Draconic Prophecy is the metaplot. As for the topic, I love Eberron, and until now, I've never met someone who don't like it. Well, next week we'll start a new campaign with players that had never played in Eberron but I'm sure they'll like it, it fits their style of play. One of the many things I like in this setting is that PCs can, no, SHOULD have an impact on the world, whether knowingly or not. The guys that shot Archduke Franz Ferdinand didn't planed that their action would have resulted in World War I. They were in a subplot to unify south slavs and be independent from Austria...
Salla 10-01-07, 02:12 AM	Thanks, go ahead and believe Metaplot is always a mistake. I disagree. Eventually, Eberron is going to fully detailed and there's plenty of room to have fun with changing politics. And the DM is the one who decides how, when, and how much it changes. As it should be.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 10-01-07, 02:32 AM	And the DM is the one who decides how, when, and how much it changes. As it should be. :thumbsup:
Charles Phipps 10-01-07, 02:33 AM	And the DM is the one who decides how, when, and how much it changes. As it should be. My rebuttal to that argument is "Right, because you only use homebrew settings."
Rechan 10-01-07, 08:14 AM	Well, the Dreaming Dark are a serious threat. But I wouldn't unless MS on THEM - I'd use it on their allies. Yes, that's what I meant; throwing around 8-9th level spells at the PCs; even if they're not the targets, I still feel like it's unfair. It'd be like some villain going around casting Create Greater Undead or Soul Trap on the PCs friends and then saying "What're you going to do about it, lowly 7th level character?" Sure you have. Setting aside the Cult of the Whispering Flame in Thrane, take a look at page 116 of Sharn: City of Towers. It talks about a family that has a close relationship with the rajahs and believes that they will one day be transformed into rajahs themselves. It's not CALLED a "Cult of the Dragon Below", but that's exactly what it is - a family that serves the powers of Khyber, pursuing a ludicrous dream and engaging in sociopathic behavior along the way. No aberrations, no grafts - just devoted service to a power of the Dragon Below. I hadn't seen this until you mentioned it, but reading it, the suggestion there is that only ONE PERSON (Alais ir'Lantar) thinks he'll be made into Rakshasa. That's not a cult, just a single person's delusion. Certainly - but that's what the LoD article says. It hasn't been called out in a specific adventure so far, sure. But it might be addressed in some upcoming sourcebook I've worked on. Cool! I'm not sure I follow you. Druids don't worship the progenitor dragons as such. There's no druids of Siberys. They worship Eberron specifically (andf in a very abstract form) because Eberron is the natural world. Khyber is the embodiment of the UNNATURAL world, which is why most of the druid orders stand united against aberrations (remember, Khyber was a source of aberrations even before the daelkyr came). I wasn't saying "Which Druids like Khyber", but "WHO likes/worships/gives the thumbs up to Khyber" given that Eberon=Druidic/earth magic. Just Cultists of the Dragon Below? Priests of the Mockery or Shadow (being a birthplace of Aberrations, and a source of Power, one of these might work),
Rechan 10-01-07, 08:16 AM	Well, the Dreaming Dark are a serious threat. But I wouldn't unless MS on THEM - I'd use it on their allies. Yes, that's what I meant; throwing around 8-9th level spells at the PCs; even if they're not the targets, I still feel like it's unfair. It'd be like some villain going around casting Create Greater Undead or Soul Trap on the PCs friends and then saying "What're you going to do about it, Mr. 5th level character?" Hell, the Quori could just Plane Shift them into Fernia or Mabar and watch them twist in the wind. Sure you have. Setting aside the Cult of the Whispering Flame in Thrane, take a look at page 116 of Sharn: City of Towers. It talks about a family that has a close relationship with the rajahs and believes that they will one day be transformed into rajahs themselves. It's not CALLED a "Cult of the Dragon Below", but that's exactly what it is - a family that serves the powers of Khyber, pursuing a ludicrous dream and engaging in sociopathic behavior along the way. No aberrations, no grafts - just devoted service to a power of the Dragon Below. I hadn't seen this until you mentioned it, but reading it, the suggestion there is that only ONE PERSON (Alais ir'Lantar) thinks he'll be made into Rakshasa. That's not a cult, just a single person's delusion. Certainly - but that's what the LoD article says. It hasn't been called out in a specific adventure so far, sure. But it might be addressed in some upcoming sourcebook I've worked on. Cool! I'm not sure I follow you. Druids don't worship the progenitor dragons as such. There's no druids of Siberys. They worship Eberron specifically (andf in a very abstract form) because Eberron is the natural world. Khyber is the embodiment of the UNNATURAL world, which is why most of the druid orders stand united against aberrations (remember, Khyber was a source of aberrations even before the daelkyr came). I wasn't saying "Which Druids like Khyber", but "WHO likes/worships/gives the thumbs up to Khyber" given that Eberon=Druidic/earth magic. Just Cultists of the Dragon Below? Priests of the Mockery or Shadow (being a birthplace of Aberrations, and a source of Power, one of these might work),
Hellcow 10-01-07, 01:49 PM	Yes, that's what I meant; throwing around 8-9th level spells at the PCs; even if they're not the targets, I still feel like it's unfair. It'd be like some villain going around casting Create Greater Undead or Soul Trap on the PCs friends and then saying "What're you going to do about it, lowly 7th level character?" At that point, I feel like it's an unfortunate consequence of playing in the deep end of the pool. As page 251 on the ECS says, "Stories don't always end well." The PCs may have saved the world or done whatever, but you can't expect to deal with a force as powerful as the DD and have them say "Eh, they're too weak - it's not really fair for us to use our higher-level abilities to mess with them." If you feel strongly about it, I'd avoid USING the DD until you're comfortable with this sort of thing; the Aurum and the Cults of the Dragon Below are both groups that are more easily used with less long-term consequence. Hence in The Dreaming Dark novels, the DD itself has only a token appearance in the first novel, laying the groundwork for the plan that is to come. I realize that you've already used them, so this isn't an option for you. But essentially, I see no reason that the Dreaming Dark needs to play fair. You're right: there is, quite simply, no way for the PCs to protect their best friend the innkeeper from having his soul devoured by a kalaraq quori in his dreams. And to me, that's the point, just like page 251 says. Stories don't always end well. They stopped the Dreaming Dark, but someone will pay the price for what they did - and worse yet, it's an innocent. And they won't even know about it until it's far too late to do anything. This comes back to the noir aspect of Eberron. The world isn't fair. It isn't pretty. And innocent people can suffer. I hadn't seen this until you mentioned it, but reading it, the suggestion there is that only ONE PERSON thinks he'll be made into Rakshasa. That's not a cult, just a single person's delusion. You may want to edit out the name, so as not to spoil. As the person who wrote the section, I think I can speak to the intent. The first paragraph speaks in generalities, saying that the person's family "has served the rakshasa for generations." It says nothing about the reasons. The second paragraph talks about the individual, why he serves the rakshasa, and the beliefs that he has. While it's not specifically called out, these beliefs are supposed to be shared by his entire family, and are the foundation of their service. He has these beliefs BECAUSE he was raised in the cult family. I admit, it's not called out in great detail. But it's a classic example of a cult of the Dragon Below - and just as I was saying earlier, one that's not so raving crazy that they can't operate in normal society. MANY cults are based on family traditions. In the Shadow Marches, these are largely Xoriat cults. In Aundair and Thrane, you get more with connections to the rakshasa. In this case, it's a family that was corrupted generations ago, and has served the rakshasa ever since. There's only a single member in Sharn - but he is nonetheless a Khyber cultist driven by his delusionary beliefs. I wasn't saying "Which Druids like Khyber", but "WHO likes/worships/gives the thumbs up to Khyber" given that Eberon=Druidic/earth magic. Just Cultists of the Dragon Below? The irvhir kobolds (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050321a)... though they are a cult of the Dragon Below. Really, the CotDB is about it. Followers of the Shadow are about as likely to worship Khyber as followers of Arawai are to worship Eberron - which is to say not very, and for the same reason. They don't believe that these are active forces in the modern world. By the myths, Eberron was ONCE an active deity, but then she became the world. She may have given birth to nature, but they don't think she decides the fate of harvests or causes the wind to blow - that's the work of Arawai and the Devourer. Look to Norse mythology for a moment. The universe was created by a giant cow licking ice. But did people worship the cow, or the gods eventually created down the line? Eberron is like the cow. Most people know the story, and that there would be no world and no Sovereigns without her - but they don't believe that she is an active force in the present day in the same way as Sovereigns and Six. Ditto for Khyber. Aside from the cults, people believe Khyber to be the SOURCE of darkness - but not a force that actively schemes, or one that is potentially even aware. Eberron is the world. Khyber the underworld. For most people, they're more important as places than deities; it's the things they spawned - dragons, demons, even potentially deities - that are important in the modern age. An important aspect of this is to consider the draconist roots of the Sovereign Host (something further explored in Dragons of Eberron, but mentioned in other books). This sect maintains that the Sovereigns are ascended dragons. Thus, Eberron and Siberys gave birth to the dragons, and the Sovereigns emerged from this match. It's like Gaea and Uranus vs the pantheon of Olympus, the Cow vs the Norse gods, etc. The progenitors are the source of everything, including gods and demons, but few people worship them directly today; most worship the next generation of deities, who play a more active role in the affairs of humanity.
Rechan 10-01-07, 02:32 PM	I realize that you've already used them, so this isn't an option for you. But essentially, I see no reason that the Dreaming Dark needs to play fair. You're right: there is, quite simply, no way for the PCs to protect their best friend the innkeeper from having his soul devoured by a kalaraq quori in his dreams. And to me, that's the point, just like page 251 says. Stories don't always end well. They stopped the Dreaming Dark, but someone will pay the price for what they did - and worse yet, it's an innocent. And they won't even know about it until it's far too late to do anything. This comes back to the noir aspect of Eberron. The world isn't fair. It isn't pretty. And innocent people can suffer. Well at least at the moment, the PCs haven't even crossed paths with the DD; I'm in the planning stages for that. Right now it's more like "Hey, your brother the powerful, kineticist you just beat down? We want to snatch him out of jail when you're not looking." The next adventure I have planned: "Hey, the Item that is causing those guys to have Xoriat-imbued powers? We want that; we're going to use you to kill them and then steal it from under your noise." This game is purely an Inquisitive game. Aside from possibly foiling a DD plan to get the Swords of Liberty to go after the King, or maybe stop them from murdering several Last War veterans who brought back various items from Xen'Drik several years ago and sold them (Neither of which have happened yet, just potential future adventures), the DD quite far removed from the PCs periphery. You may want to edit out the name, so as not to spoil. Spoiler tag added. :) Sorry about that. The first paragraph speaks in generalities, saying that the person's family "has served the rakshasa for generations." While it's not specifically called out, these beliefs are supposed to be shared by his entire family, and are the foundation of their service. He has these beliefs BECAUSE he was raised in the cult family. Ah, missed that. Reading between the lines = important. :) I have my own reservations about the way you set up the kobolds, but that's just a pet peeve that doesn't really help anything. Figures you'd use a GIANT COW as an example. ;) But I find it really disappointing that no one, aside from the Daelkyr-worshipers, try to monopolize on Khyber. Given that Khyber itself is infused with magical energy. I mean, Khyber contains both the Rajahs and Daelkyr; an immense feat. If Eberron has worshipers and venerators (Druids), I would expect someone who sees Khyber as the way to tap into power, without having to beg the Gods for spells. Khyber has got to be rich with power, even if it is unnatural or twisted. The progineters are the Source and have far more power than the Gods ever could, because the Gods are watered down versions, even if they're more active (as active as Gods are in this setting, assuming they're even there in the first place). The way I look at it (or expect some to look at it), it is the difference between a blacksmith in Sharn using fire in his forge, and someone in the Cogs using the magma of the Cogs. The latter sure is taking a risk using that magma as a source of heat and energy to run do his jobs, but it's far more powerful and easier than having to deal with constantly attending to the fire and such. If I were someone looking for a fast, easy (and self-destructive) way to get power, I'd try to tap into Khyber, rather than go to Wizard school. It's the same reason why people make deals with fiends for power: cheap, efficient, and damning.
Hellcow 10-01-07, 03:13 PM	I mean, Khyber contains both the Rajahs and Daelkyr; an immense feat. Hmm. You're saying "feat" as if this is something Khyber chooses to do. I'd argue the reverse. KHYBER doesn't "contain" the daelkyr or rajahs. The rajahs are held at bay by the power of the Silver Flame - a force that began with the sacrifice of a race of immortals. Khyber gave BIRTH to the rajahs; it's the Flame that holds them. Meanwhile, the daelkyr are imprisoned by the seals of the Gatekeepers. So it's not the power of Khyber that holds either rajah or daelkyr. Instead, the forces of Khyber are essentially WEAKER than the power of Flame or nature - because both can be pinned in the darkness. If Eberron has worshipers and venerators (Druids), I would expect someone who sees Khyber as the way to tap into power, without having to beg the Gods for spells. Khyber has got to be rich with power, even if it is unnatural or twisted. Well, two things. Most druids don't literally "worship" Eberron. They venerate the natural world, and some do speak of this as the Dragon Between, but it's an entirely different thing from the way that a follower of the Sovereign Host worships Arawai. Again, they believe that Eberron IS the world. She's not some abstract goddess; she is all around us. She's the soil you stand on, the air you breathe. Yes, we honor her - but it's not the same as your rites to this mysterious Arawai who may or may not exist. The second - I'm not sure I follow. People DO venerate Khyber... the cults of the Dragon Below dedicated to Khyber as opposed to rakshasa or daelkyr. As noted earlier, CotDB can take many forms, and while they are usually associated with madness, that can be obsession as much as literal insanity. So I'd still say "Yes, those people are out there - they're cultists of the Dragon Below." If they approach this in a purely secular manner - a wizard who believes that there is a source of power in Khyber that can be tapped and channelled - then they may not be cultists, but I also wouldn't say that they are worshiping or venerating it either, any more than a normal wizard worships the source of arcane magic. So my point is that if you're looking for the canon counterpoint to the druids - a widespread movement - that would be the Cults of the Dragon Below. But if you just want an individual who reveres Khyber in a non-secular, opportunistic fashion? Nothing out there in canon, but no reason you can't make it. The progineters are the Source and have far more power than the Gods ever could, because the Gods are watered down versions... But the PROGENITORS are watered-down versions of what they once were. Going back to Norse mythology, consider Ymir. He was there at the begining, but the gods defeated him and built the earth from his bones. That's closer to what you have with the Progenitors. Because in the legends, the Progenitors were dragons... and they aren't anymore. Once they are supposed to have moved across the universe, creating worlds and planes. But Eberron can't move any more. She's not a dragon, she's earth and stone. Giving birth to her children was, in essence, her final act - as it was with Khyber. Eberron BECAME the world - and in becoming the world, she ceased to be what she had been before. Now, someone who directly worships Khyber may say otherwise: The Dragon Below was never defeated, it will rise again, whatever. And as I said, you can add all the Khyber cults you want in your game. In canon they are rare because most people in the modern age think of Khyber as a place first and a deity second. If I were someone looking for a fast, easy (and self-destructive) way to get power, I'd try to tap into Khyber, rather than go to Wizard school. But how would you DO it? That's the problem - it's not fast or easy, because it actually requires some sort of understanding of the power of Khyber... and there's still the question of what exactly that power is (again, the power that holds the fiends in check isn't the power of Khyber - quite the contrary). Tapping into the power of Xoriat is actually easier, because all living creatures have an innate bond to Xoriat; it's there waiting with madness and rage, if you choose to embrace it. Of course, as per DoE, it can be argued that the power of Xoriat IS the power of Khyber - and that this bond to Xoriat reflects the touch of Khyber in every living thing. Again, remember that while many of the Cults have a connection to Xoriat and aberrations, only a few are aware of this... and aberrations are connected to Khyber as well. So just because you're a CotDB barbarian wilder doesn't mean you've chosen Xoriat over Khyber; you are a member of a family who believes in the passage of blood that will lead to the hidden realm of Kashtalkora within the earth. You don't care about Xoriat (which may be the source of your wilder powers) or Khyber; you only know that you are blessed with the rage and the power of your blood. If you're part of a cult family, your family may already know secrets of the power of Khyber. But otherwise, the problem is that the ability to tap the blood of Siberys - arcane magic - is well known and easily understood. You CAN go to wizard school. There's many magewrights in the world. Learning about whatever force does lie in Khyber, independent of the tie to Xoriat or congress with any sort of fiend or aberration, isn't a trivial thing. In Sharn, the magma is just THERE - I know where to find it if I don't want to follow the usual path. Actually finding the POWER of Khyber is a trickier business. All in my opinion, of course. Again, you can and should do whatever you want. But that's why it hasn't been covered in more detail so far.
Bluebrush 10-01-07, 03:44 PM	Look to Norse mythology for a moment. The universe was created by a giant cow licking ice.I'm thinking you should probably keep Bossy away from any time machines you may or may not have parked in your basement.
Rechan 10-01-07, 03:59 PM	Again, they believe that Eberron IS the world. She's not some abstract goddess; she is all around us. She's the soil you stand on, the air you breathe. Yes, we honor her - but it's not the same as your rites to this mysterious Arawai who may or may not exist. And I just don't see how that - Eberron is all around us it's real we worship Eberron and get our druid magic - is any different than saying Khyber is real, we worship it and get evil nasty magic. The second - I'm not sure I follow. People DO venerate Khyber... the cults of the Dragon Below dedicated to Khyber as opposed to rakshasa or daelkyr. As noted earlier, CotDB can take many forms, and while they are usually associated with madness, that can be obsession as much as literal insanity. So I'd still say "Yes, those people are out there - they're cultists of the Dragon Below." Oh. I was under the impression that 99% of the CoDB are Daelkyr/Aberration worshipers, so just saying "Who worships the Power of Khyber?" "CoDB" would be rather misleading. They're not worshiping Khyber, they're worshiping the Daelkyr or Xoriat. But the PROGENITORS are watered-down versions of what they once were. Going back to Norse mythology, consider Ymir. He was there at the begining, but the gods defeated him and built the earth from his bones. That's closer to what you have with the Progenitors. Because in the legends, the Progenitors were dragons... and they aren't anymore. Once they are supposed to have moved across the universe, creating worlds and planes. But Eberron can't move any more. She's not a dragon, she's earth and stone. Giving birth to her children was, in essence, her final act - as it was with Khyber. Eberron BECAME the world - and in becoming the world, she ceased to be what she had been before. But at the same time, As you said, Eberron is everywhere - the air that is breathed, the dirt that is walked on, and the place where Druidic Magic Springs Forth. Eberron is a real place. The Gods could be out there or might not be, and whether they're "Active" in human action is subjective. Khyber is a real place, and it has real dragonshards that are growing down there that are real magic. Just as Eberron is the source of life and druidic magic, then Khyber must be the source of some kind of power. At this point, I don't get it. You're saying that "the blood of Siberys" is Arcane magic and that druid magic comes from Eberron because Eberron is the earth, the Silver Flame bound the Rajahs and the Gatekeeper Seals hold the Rajah. But all Khyber's got is a general link to Xoriat because they both have Aberrations/are unnatural? Eberron would by that logic have a connection to Thelandis and Lamannia, and Siberis would have one to Syrannia. Let's Put Xoriat over here in a box and label it Xoriat and remove it from the picture for a second. What does Khyber got to offer Anybody? Without Xoriat is Khyber just a hunk of impotent rock? I guess I was expecting more from the birthplace of evil and unnatural things, and the current prison of the setting's worst entities (outside of Dal Qour). I find it disappointing that the only thing is the association with Xoriat; Xoriat just doesn't excite me. I do appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to answer my confusion though. Thank you. :)
Salla 10-01-07, 04:14 PM	My rebuttal to that argument is "Right, because you only use homebrew settings." I don't even understand what you're trying to say with that.
Fabius Maximus 10-01-07, 05:45 PM	I don't even understand what you're trying to say with that. He's probably a so-called "canon lawyer". To him, every version of Eberron that deviates from official lore is not Eberron anymore. You encounter them from time to time. He's the first I seen for Eberron, though.
Hellcow 10-01-07, 06:04 PM	And I just don't see how that - Eberron is all around us it's real we worship Eberron and get our druid magic - is any different than saying Khyber is real, we worship it and get evil nasty magic. But that's not what they say. As I said above, the Druids don't worship Eberron. They respect Eberron as the source of all nature - but they don't believe that Eberron is a conscious entity in the same way that a worshipper of the Host believes Arawai is. Eberron IS nature - not a goddess of nature. Beyond this, remember that as a human druid, you are a child of Eberron. You are part of the natural world. Eberron doesn't choose to give you natural magic. Rather, by understanding nature and your role in it, you learn to tap into the power of nature. But there's really no comparison between Eberron and Arawai; Arawai is a nature goddess, while Eberron is the natural world. Now, let's go back to the wizard. The common belief is that the power of common magic is "the blood of Siberys", flowing down from the ring. The sorcerer taps into it intuitively; the wizard learns to manipulate it with formulas; the cleric uses rituals, faith, and perhaps the aid of the gods. But this power IS the power of a progenitor, and it's all around. Neither Aureon or the Shadow are supposed to be SOURCES of magic. Aureon is the Sovereign of Law and Lore, who gave up his shadow to understand how to USE magic. Technically, when the priest calls on Aureon to heal someone, he IS using the power of Siberys; he's just asking Aureon to make it happen. The snobby wizard would argue that he's going directly to the source, and needs no god to give him power. Oh. I was under the impression that 99% of the CoDB are Daelkyr/Aberration worshipers, so just saying "Who worships the Power of Khyber?" "CoDB" would be rather misleading. They're not worshiping Khyber, they're worshiping the Daelkyr or Xoriat. I'd say 75%/20%/5% for Xoriat/Rajah/Khyber. Quoting page 87 of the PGtE: The oldest forms of the Cults of the Dragon Below worship Khyber itself... Modern cultists worship the various entites trapped within Khyber - the rakshasa rajahs, or more commonly the daelkyr. So FIRST, "more commonly" was never intended to mean "99 to 1". It was intended to mean just what it says - that there are more cultists who are affiliated with the powers of Xoriat than there are with the rajahs. But both exist, along with the older and rarest cults that worship Khyber itself. Second, as it goes on to say, even those who worship the POWERS of Xoriat often have no knowledge of the lineage of what they revere. Many would find the words "daelkyr" or "Xoriat" to be meaningless. The barbarian I described above may associate with aberrations, who he believes to be blessed citizens of Tashalktora. But he doesn't know what a daelkyr is. He doesn't want to release some ancient power. He wants to earn his passage to the paradise that lies below - a world he wants to keep you OUT of. So if you want the absolute truth, he doesn't worship daelkyr, Xoriat, or Khyber: he is a sociopath who believes in a paradise beneath the world, and who is comfortable around aberrations. Because of the aberration connection, most people would call him a "Xoriat worshipper" - but he's not in any meaningful way, especially since there are aberrations that have nothing to do with Xoriat. Eberron is a real place. The Gods could be out there or might not be, and whether they're "Active" in human action is subjective. And yet, that's exactly the point. Eberron is a real place. Arcane energy is a real substance. The reason few people worship these things is because, essentially, they take them for granted. In our world, how many people actually worship the Earth? Or electricity? How does that compare to Christianity, Islam, Judiasm, Hinduism - all religions based around subjective deities? Khyber is a real place, and it has real dragonshards that are growing down there that are real magic. Just as Eberron is the source of life and druidic magic, then Khyber must be the source of some kind of power. Certainly. Khyber is the source of the fiends. It is the source of unnatural power that corrupts and destroys life. It's said to be the source of aberrant dragonmarks, for example - destructive powers that sicken even their bearers. But it's filled with dangerous creatures, and much of its power is actively held in check by other forces. As a druid, I am a creature of the natural world, and I live within the natural world. The blood of Siberys falls down from the sky upon us and around us. The power of Khyber is there, but in the depths, sealed away. It is a force we are told is deadly and destructive, fundamentally unnatural. To use it you must first FIND it, learn its nature, learn how to control it without being killed. But people do this. Looking to the article in Dragon #332, alienists are "people who seek to unlock the secrets of Xoriat and Khyber itself." The same article actually describes the barbarian as allowing the madness of Khyber to possess him; he may never have heard the word "Xoriat" before. D332 suggests the touch of the daelkyr as a possible source for warlock abilities in a DAELKYR cultist... but if you're dealing with a warlock from the Demon Wastes, I'd certainly call his powers the touch of Khyber's fiendish energies. But you can be an alienist drawing on the power of Khyber without worshipping Khyber as a god. And if you DO worship Khyber as a god, my inclination is to say that you're in the CotDB... as the PGtE says is possible. But all Khyber's got is a general link to Xoriat because they both have Aberrations/are unnatural? Not remotely. Xoriat is an aspect of Khyber, as are the fiends of Shavarath, the endless hunger of Mabar, the raw destructive power of Fernia. According to the legends of the dragons, the Progenitors crafted the planes together, but some planes show the stronger marks of one progenitor. Xoriat and aberrations reflect one element of Khyber: the unnatural. Khyber is also a source of darkness, of fiends, of fear. Thus you get the Lords of Dust, and whatever else you choose to bring up from Khyber. So again, that barbarian doesn't worship XORIAT. He doesn't know anything about the daelkyr. However, it's possible that his belief structure could be traced back to the Xoriat incursion, when his ancestors were made to belief that there was a subterranean paradise where people would wear new flesh and live forever. The incursion spawned religions - but those faiths are many and varied. In any case, there's power there - the power of the alienist or fiend. But it's a dangerous force to work with, and thus one that hasn't been used very often. A follower of the Shadow might USE the power of Khyber - but I wouldn't see him WORSHIPPING Khyber, any more than he worships Siberys. Eberron would by that logic have a connection to Thelandis and Lamannia... Correct. And for that matter Fernia and Risia. Fire can be destructive, but it's also part of the natural world. I guess I was expecting more from the birthplace of evil and unnatural things, and the current prison of the setting's worst entities... Well, again, Khyber is the place they ARE imprisoned - but it's not the force that imprisons them. I need to drop the subject and do actual work, and this is off-topic. So let me try to summarize. It's not my intention to say that Khyber has no power. If you believe the legends - and not everyone does - Siberys is the source of arcane magic and Eberron is the source of natural magic. Khyber, then, is the source of UNNATURAL power - power that corrupts the flesh and destroys the mind (of natural creations - aberrations and fiends have no problem with it). The reason Khyber cults often deal with aberrations is because association with Khyber often PRODUCES aberrations, regardless of whether Xoriat is involved. There are those who actually worship Khyber as a god. As noted in the PGtE, these are the oldest and rarest of the Cults of the Dragon Below. There are others who draw on Khyber's power but DON'T worship it as a god; these are most likely to be alienists or follow paths associated with fiends. Still others may be touched by Khyber's power in some way. The classic example of this is the aberrant dragonmark, which is why the legends claim that aberrants are cursed - because they believe that channeling the power of Khyber is inherently dangerous and will bring misfortune to the user and anyone around him. Khyber's power thus exists, but is not easily accessible. The Silver Flame, the Gatekeeper seals, and myth and superstition all form barriers. The power of Siberys is accepted as being safe to use; the legends say nothing about the dangers of the unnatural force of Siberys; and the local Cannith trade school can teach you to be a magewright. Learning the nature of Khyber's power is a dangerous journey in all sorts of ways - unless you take the quick route of madness. So neither Khyber's power or the Cults of the Dragon Below are innately tied to Xoriat. Rather, Xoriat is a plane with close ties to Khyber, reflecting the role of the Dragon Below as the corruptor of nature and source of horrors. It is the aspect of Khyber that is most easily accessible to mortals. We are natural creatures - children of Eberron - but fear and madness are always in us. But all of the other elements of Khyber are out there, waiting to be found... it's just a dangerous path for most, far more challenging than learning to be a magewright. But as always, you can make of it what you will! ;)
Salla 10-01-07, 06:34 PM	He's probably a so-called "canon lawyer". To him, every version of Eberron that deviates from official lore is not Eberron anymore. You encounter them from time to time. He's the first I seen for Eberron, though. Heh. Bet he'd've loved it when I killed Elminster ...
Paulon 10-01-07, 10:13 PM	He's probably a so-called "canon lawyer". To him, every version of Eberron that deviates from official lore is not Eberron anymore. You encounter them from time to time. He's the first I seen for Eberron, though. As a counter-argument to that, take a gander at the Forgotten Freedom and Shadow over Cyre threads. You might need a few weeks if you go all the way through. ;)
Thanqol 10-02-07, 04:09 AM	I really, really want to see the Cow beat down Odin and his buddies. That would be -hilarious-.
larry_the_titan 10-02-07, 08:26 AM	My rebuttal to that argument is "Right, because you only use homebrew settings." As soon as any character does anything meaningful in the world the setting is not the same. So by your ruling if Ebberon has PCs in it, it is no longer Eberron.
Fabius Maximus 10-02-07, 08:28 AM	As a counter-argument to that, take a gander at the Forgotten Freedom and Shadow over Cyre threads. You might need a few weeks if you go all the way through. ;) And what is that supposed to show me?
Paulon 10-02-07, 09:45 AM	And what is that supposed to show me? If you read the threads you'll probably notice the slight divergences between RAW Eberron and the Eberron as run by Charles. *shrugs*
Fabius Maximus 10-02-07, 01:16 PM	Ah, okay. But then I don't understand his statement above.
larry_the_titan 10-02-07, 06:11 PM	@ Fabius Maximus My point was that you seem to want things cast in stone. Unchanging for all time. Players will change things but you don't even seem to want that to change. Earlier you called a DM changing something in a setting Homebrewing. It seems you didn't seem to realize that the changes that were being made could of been to Eberron because of the passing of time. Be it by a DM or the Designers things will change over time in the setting. You should be more accepting. And move on with the rest of the players.
Kid SixXx 10-02-07, 07:04 PM	He's probably a so-called "canon lawyer". To him, every version of Eberron that deviates from official lore is not Eberron anymore. No, he's saying that there is a difference between time advancement and metaplot. If you advance time, you may have some poltical or geographical shifting about, but then again you might not. A metaplot action might have the Giant - Quori War happen all over again in present day Eberron. The two go hand in hand for sure, but I think Charles is saying that the two ideas can be mutually exclusive.
Salla 10-02-07, 07:08 PM	No, he's saying that there is a difference between time advancement and metaplot. If you advance time, you may have some poltical or geographical shifting about, but then again you might not. A metaplot action might have the Giant - Quori War happen all over again in present day Eberron. The two go hand in hand for sure, but I think Charles is saying that the two ideas can be mutually exclusive. In either event, I think it should be up for the DM to determine both timeline advancement and/or metaplot advancement.