Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dystmesis 03-14-06, 03:37 AM	Last night, I added up the populations of all the countries in Khorvaire. At first, this was because I first noticed that Eberron is one of the least human-populated campaign settings I've seen. Indeed, the population of Khorvaire is roughly 40% human, compared to Faerun's ~80%. But then I noticed how strange the total population was. I remember reading not long ago that someone figured out how underpopulated Sharn was. So, I then decided to compare to Khorvaire to other things. Europe, in 800, is estimated to have had a population of roughly 30 million. By 1300, it rose as high as 100 million. Meanwhile, in Khorvaire, there are _16_ million souls, roughly half the population of Europe. Also in comparison, adding up all the numbers in the forgotten realms campaign setting, Faerun has 46 million people. Now let's look at that number. 16 million. If I'm doing my math correctly, Khorvaire is somewhere around 4400ish miles by 2500ish miles. Multiplying something in there gets us, oh, say, 11,080,000 square miles, I believe. Dividing 16,000,000 by 11,080,000, we're left with... 1.444043321... If I'm understanding correctly, There's roughly one and a half person per square mile in Khorvaire. You have to walk a mile to meet another person. It's a darn good thing House Orien built that train.
Jaeden 03-14-06, 03:40 AM	How else do you expect to get all those mansions, foreboding towers, etc. It takes a lot of space :D
Volaran 03-14-06, 04:44 AM	This seems to come up periodically. Some people like increasing Khorvair's population, some like making the place smaller. Some assume that the national population numbers only refer to citizens, ect.
Dapperdan 03-14-06, 04:50 AM	Also don't forget to realize though there may only be 16 million people in Khorviare, they're all more or less centralized in communities. Meaning outside of any sort of town or city, you're most likely not to see anybody, which leads me to believe that outside of the major cities, Khorviare's all instanced, and luckily no respawns =P
igotsmeakabob!! 03-14-06, 05:06 AM	Keith himself said that whoever made the scale on the maps scaled it wrong, way too large. However I do agree, I tend to increase the populations a bit, though the players don't really have a problem one way or another. I like my Sharn to be filled with people... sorta like New York, but to a lesser extent on the population since the towers aren't apartment buildings made with efficiency in mind, they're made with enough space for whole houses. Sharn's population isn't just the people that live there, adventurers, travelling merchants, visiting sailors.. theres alot of people that don't make a permanent residence there. Its the greatest city of Breland and Khorvaire as a whole (just my opinion).
Purple Yin 03-14-06, 05:23 AM	x10 /fixed
Papa_duval 03-14-06, 05:50 AM	Well, one thing to consider What was the population of europe after the bubonic plague. (1/3 of europe died, 200million victims) - How did the invasion of the mongols affect eastern europe. Then consider how a 100yr long war, and the destruction of an entire country (cyre) would drop the population level somewhat. Imagine how many people would have died had Great Britain been totally eradicated, all the way to its borders with no life left within. (Considering that Eberron is considered to be a rennaissance period setting, that would be about 5,000,000 dead - Cyre i think is bigger than the UK.) Imagine why the nations of khorvaire needed to resort to warforged armies to continue the fight. Not enough actual soldiers. Now, granted, i still think the figures are a bit low, but there are reasons for them being lower than normal for a continent of this size
il Kav 03-14-06, 07:37 AM	this problem, again... eberron is not a renaissance setting (because there is medicine, tecnology (magic) and so on). the numbers are just ridicolous. Multiply everything *10 and all will be good. Or shrink the world, or, take it as is... Every Eberron is different ;)
Xary Darkwind 03-14-06, 07:43 AM	You haven't considered the primary differences between Europa and Khorvaire; In Europa, even in the 800, you can't find Undead (many, many undaed if you are in Karrnath), Construct, Oozes, one Terrasque ( :king: ), Living Spell, Living Plant, Kobolds... etc that I think aren't considered for the total population of Khorvaire...
Papa_duval 03-14-06, 07:47 AM	Um And you think there was no medicine/technology and so on in the renaissance? Da'vinci lived during the renaissance period, but. The renaissance period refers to a time when technological marvels were created, where science and art became popular, where a gun would be made one at a time by a craftsman, rather than hundreds at a time by a mass production industry. Which is very akin to eberron - each of those magical marvels is made one by one, not hundreds at a time, each lantern needs to be maintained individually by a mage wright - Artificers represent the scientist/artists, but for the magical world. The feel of Eberron is renaissance, even if the magic infused technology is post industrial revolution in look and style. Its in the way things are done that make it renaissance, not in the technology available (which is totally a result of the existence of magic)
Setherial 03-14-06, 08:02 AM	who cares ? Where do you guys get the time to discuss such pointless details, as if they have any impact on the game... We're DMs, we do as we wish, not as is written. You should have spend your time thinking up an exciting adventure and post it here, that would have been usefull to the community. Actually if all of you did this instead of ***** about typos and things you don't like on page 3589 of the errata we would have a wealth of information by now... my 2 cents
Just another user 03-14-06, 11:05 AM	Last night, I added up the populations of all the countries in Khorvaire. At first, this was because I first noticed that Eberron is one of the least human-populated campaign settings I've seen. Indeed, the population of Khorvaire is roughly 40% human, compared to Faerun's ~80%. But then I noticed how strange the total population was. I remember reading not long ago that someone figured out how underpopulated Sharn was. So, I then decided to compare to Khorvaire to other things. Europe, in 800, is estimated to have had a population of roughly 30 million. By 1300, it rose as high as 100 million. Meanwhile, in Khorvaire, there are _16_ million souls, roughly half the population of Europe. Also in comparison, adding up all the numbers in the forgotten realms campaign setting, Faerun has 46 million people. Now let's look at that number. 16 million. If I'm doing my math correctly, Khorvaire is somewhere around 4400ish miles by 2500ish miles. Multiplying something in there gets us, oh, say, 11,080,000 square miles, I believe. Dividing 16,000,000 by 11,080,000, we're left with... 1.444043321... If I'm understanding correctly, There's roughly one and a half person per square mile in Khorvaire. You have to walk a mile to meet another person. It's a darn good thing House Orien built that train. you have to take in account that there are places, even large places, like the Demon wastes, the eideen reaches, the mournland, etc where a person every mile is considered to be crowded ;) , other places, like q'barra, drooam, the shadow marches, or the talenta plains are only slightly better than that. There is a lot of empty space in Khorvaine even in the civilized countries.
Nerdicus 03-14-06, 11:37 AM	You know I think that Canada has roughly 1.5- 3 square KM per person in the country. Of course, that mostly is because of the vast streaches of unused land we got.
DoveArrow 03-14-06, 02:10 PM	Personally, I just ignore the issue. You know... kind've like ignoring the fact that, in Independence Day, if giant spaceships the size of cities were to invade Earth, the tidal activity caused by their mere presence would cause just as much devastation to coastal cities as any space age, Indiglo laser. But that's neither here nor there.
Azazyll 03-14-06, 02:50 PM	I have to agree with those saying it is unimportant. Not only that, but unless you've got a PHD in the relevant fields, you're probably not really qualified to talk about it. A lot of numbers get thrown around about population in the past, but the truth is it's a fuzzy field. It's not like there was a census bureau in the middle ages. I gues the closest you'd come to it is the Domesday Book from 1080 in England, but that is unique. I would also agree with the point about the destruction of Cyre and the last war. It appears from the information that Cyre was the heartland of the five nations (the ruling scion was usually raised in Cyre) and probably had a population at least comparable if not greater than breland. Add to that a renaissance society which suffers what is effectively a hundred year long version of the thirty years war and you'll see untold devastation. The population of germany during the thirty years war was dropped by perhaps as much as a third. I'd say that's at least as bad as the last war was. The worst thing about a war that long is that there wouldn't be an opportunity for demographic regrowth. The problem with the black death, for instance, wasn't that it killed a third of the population in three years, but that it kept coming back every ten years for half a century. There wasn't an opportunity for rebuilding the population. I think the same problem hit khorvaire with the last war, and that's why you have so many mercenaries and warforged and such. No chance to recoup population losses. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a much higher population before the war and if khorvaire doesn't experience a baby boom the likes of which earth has never seen. Imagine if WWII had lasted for ten to twenty times as long as it did, and you'll have a better idea of why the population is so low. Either way, it's not really relevant to game play unless you make it relevant. It is fun to argue about, as long as everyone realizes we're totally unqualified to make realisitic projections of populations. Unless someone on the boards actually does have a PHD in history specializing in medieval demographics. But since there are only a handful of them in the world, and they get paid top dollar (or the history department equivalent) I find that highly unlikely.
Lord_Cabby 03-14-06, 04:00 PM	I agree with Setherial and Azazyll on this one: it doesn't really matter. I've barely even glanced at the population figures in the book. It's not like the characters are going to go into every home in every district of every city of every nation on Khorvaire. And if they are, you shouldn't be DMing for them, because that is just a waste of time.
WarlockDa 03-14-06, 04:31 PM	Damn how many of your PCs take "Profession: Cenus Analyist" anyways ? :D If you seriously have to figure it out... once you add in all the land mentioned above that is pretty much unpopulated and unusable....don't leave out the simple fact of monsters. England didn't have goblins, trolls, dolgaunts, wyverns, etc etc roaming around waiting for a tasty citizen to venture out of the city unprepared. Then as stated adding in a 100 year long war,... and you'd start to wonder why the population is a bit lower.
the_old_noob 03-14-06, 04:38 PM	Keith himself said that whoever made the scale on the maps scaled it wrong, way too large. I wonder what the proper scale is, then? Clearly ECS is all messed up, but I think the ExHB is also messed up. The free map you can download is screwed up, too, it appears, since it's scale doesn't agree with anything else. What oh what is the real map?
Edymnion 03-14-06, 04:38 PM	who cares ?In my experience, everyone on this board that doesn't use Eberron as just another hack and slash setting. Those of us that like to make a living, thriving world with more to it than just what the PCs happen to be looking at at that exact moment. Those of us who like to look at population centers and judge what sort of material should be available based on population. When we look and see what should be one of the greatest cities in the world, and it averages out as having a half dozen people per square mile, its jarring, because by the books, yes, Eberron is an underpopulated stretch of nothing. How does the civilized areas even stay in contact with each other when its a hundred miles of nothing between villiages? How does any given nation raise an army that winds up being a tenth of said country's entire population? Can we fix that? Yeah, pretty easily, by multiplying the entire populations by 10 (or shrinking all of the known world by a factor of 10), but again, its one of those obvious things that someone should have caught earlier. Those of us that actually run a roleplaying game instead of Diablo II: Eberron Expansion prefer not having to houserule half the setting just to make it work because the guy writing a particular section didn't know what he was doing. Again, variation on the Oberroni Falacy (geez, if I keep saying this one, we might get the Edymnion Falacy started). Just because the DM can fix it doesn't mean it wasn't written incorrectly to begin with.
yossarius 03-14-06, 05:06 PM	I notice your population density figures assume that monsters don't take up space or consume resourses.
Euangelion 03-14-06, 05:07 PM	The one problem with multiplying the population by 10 is the effect that would have on the levels of the NPCs. There would be many more higher level NPCs than the ECS (in particular) indicates, especially if one goes by the DMG demographics table rather than the apparently officially unofficial demographics table in the Demographics Dragonshards article. I recommend shrinking the scale, but that still means adjusting other things, like the sizes of armies and particular military units (the Knights Phantom comes to mind). But if one goes by the levels of NPCs in such books as Five Nations, maybe multiplying the population by 10 is the way to go. But personally I try to remember that creating a world from scratch is really hard, and that it's far easier (and fun too, according to Homer Simpson) to criticize and editorialize than it is to create.
Master_Musashi 03-14-06, 05:26 PM	This doesn't bother me in the slightest. A proper medieval world should have few noticable population centers. Everyone else will be farmers... generally 1-4 person families occupying multiple square miles of land. So to me it works out.
Sarlax 03-14-06, 06:08 PM	I would also agree with the point about the destruction of Cyre and the last war. It appears from the information that Cyre was the heartland of the five nations (the ruling scion was usually raised in Cyre) and probably had a population at least comparable if not greater than breland. This pre-Mourning data on Cyre's population is available in Five Nations. It's not nearly enough to account for the huge population deficit.
Sarlax 03-14-06, 06:19 PM	I notice your population density figures assume that monsters don't take up space or consume resourses. Good point! That makes the listed numbers even less plausible. Once you add in savage humanoids, wandering predators, and all the other beasts of D&D, it becomes about impossible to have anything like a big nation, much less a state. How can you have a country at all when there's usually a goblin warren, a ogre tribe, a minotaur maze, and a winter wolf pack between every pair of cities? It's hard enough to govern an area across hundreds of miles. It's impossible when those vast distances are filled with monsters. Imagine if, in the United States, much of the territory were populated by dozens of distinct species of hostile intelligent creatures, many of them predators, when European settlers arrived. There wouldn't be a U.S. States the size of California and Texas would be impossible. Khorvaire's in a similar situation. When Lhazaar and her people arrived, they certainly could have spread from east to west, but they couldn't have left huge nations in their wake while leaving native monsters in the middle. Some say, "Well, the maps are just arbitrary boundaries of the nations, the kingdoms don't actually completely govern their lands." I'll buy that to a point. We know Breland never really had control over Droaam, for instance. The trick isn't that, though, it's how Wroat and Sharn can even exist in the same country. These cities should each be the capital of their own smaller countries. Again, people could say, "For practical purposes, they are." But then how does Boranel rule? How is it that the people even consider themselves to Brelish? They wouldn't submit to a common king and they couldn't have evolved a common national identity.
dang 03-14-06, 06:47 PM	Khorvaire's in a similar situation. When Lhazaar and her people arrived, they certainly could have spread from east to west, but they couldn't have left huge nations in their wake while leaving native monsters in the middle. ... Again, people could say, "For practical purposes, they are." But then how does Boranel rule? How is it that the people even consider themselves to Brelish? They wouldn't submit to a common king and they couldn't have evolved a common national identity. i hate to do this, but... "magic." all the world powers have immense control over magical resources, via PC classes and monetary proprietorship with the marked houses. it results in instant communication, fast travel, and national industry. i think the monster point has more merit, because it's not just about the raving and bloodthirsty. source materials say that khorvaire is home to communities of kobolds, forests full of goat-people, a city of coatlish yuan-ti, etc. non of these would be counted as citizens. also, think of the early united states: a frontier nation (like breland) it had a dense eastern population, and a huge expanse of "unpopulated" land... well, not unpopulated, but historical tragedy isn't relevant here. breland's cities can be thriving hubs with steady traffic between them and coexist with vast wilderness. isn't it more fun that way? i think the people per sq mile argument contributes to a skewed view of the setting. nerdicus's canada example, in particular, sheds light on this issue. and this has been mentioned already, but try including pre-mourning cyre in your calculations, and you might reach a more sensible figure. i have to say, though, that while i agree the map scale is a little off (if anyone has time, i'd suggest calculating how long a trip by the lightning rail from breland to karrnath would take, using the published speeds), i don't think any possible errors are that staggering. all the same, it IS relevant to those who are interested in it, precisely because they ARE interested. i don't think it's fair to censure, because all we'd be left with would be rules discussions, and that's purty dry. :( a long time ago, i posted a question about how ridiculously high the percentage of elves in khorvaire is, and received only: "if you're the DM, change it." that's patently unhelpful, and somewhat off-putting. i was able to figure it out, though, and it actually did enrich my experience in the setting. i'm done! :D
yossarius 03-14-06, 07:06 PM	People considered the West part of the US in the late 1800's dispite the fact that native americans actually controlled a sizeable part of it. But, if you looked at census data of that time period, I doubt the figures included them. But the old west was hardly a barren wasteland. To say so suggested that the native americans don't count as real humans. My assumption is that there is little real infrastructure in the five nations. That's why the trade roads and lightning rails are so important. Look at the rail between Wroat and Sharn. Other than First Tower, what exists along the rail? Not much beyond a wilderness barely pushed back. Even though there's little more than a few minor villages along that rail, it's extremely important, because that's all that keeps the two major cities connected. The way I see it, there is a slim dusting of humanity clinging to the roads & rails like cobwebs. Part of Eberrons grandeur is that so much of it is, if not unexplored, at least unsettled.
Sarlax 03-14-06, 07:32 PM	People considered the West part of the US in the late 1800's dispite the fact that native americans actually controlled a sizeable part of it. But, if you looked at census data of that time period, I doubt the figures included them. But the old west was hardly a barren wasteland. To say so suggested that the native americans don't count as real humans. At the time, the "government" of the West wasn't. You're right: for a long time, the United States claimed a lot more land than it practically goverened. That's exactly why the natives of the West (whatever was the west at any given time) weren't really members of the nation. That's why there wasn't a strong American Identity - until the natives were exterminated and replaced. It's entirely unlike the bizarre politics of Khorvaire. In Khorvaire, humans seem simply to have migrated around existing monster populations and set up towns. That's fine with me; humans have had thousands of years and they're adaptive, so it's reasonable to think they'd have carved out communities. The crazy thing is that they've done so much more - they somehow created nation-states that span thousands of miles! To use the earlier analogy, it'd be like European colonists landing on the east coast of North America, not spreading disease to the natives, spreading peacefully to the West, and still ending up with a giant nation-state sprawling from sea to shining sea. My assumption is that there is little real infrastructure in the five nations. That's why the trade roads and lightning rails are so important. Look at the rail between Wroat and Sharn.[/quote] This can't explain the presence of big countries. The rail was created shortly before the Last War, and even now it's too small to permit easy government. The way I see it, there is a slim dusting of humanity clinging to the roads & rails like cobwebs. I think that's dead on accurate. Humans are thinly scattered across the continent, tending to stick to the big trade routes. But where do the national identities come from? How can a king rule someone 1200 miles away? If we accept the population figures and distributions, Khorvaire's humans should be organized into smaller government. City-states would be the dominant structure on the landscape, with places like Sharn and Thronehold administering the lands within a close distance. This structure would permit the given population levels to make sense while preserving Khorvaire's frontier feel. But it screws up explanations of the Last War.
Edymnion 03-14-06, 07:54 PM	Your idea of what is Eberron IS NOT superior to anyone elses idea.Never said it was. But last time I checked, everyone was still free to express their opinions freely and openly. Unless I just missed the memo... Not throwing a tantrum over simple mistakes in a very good book does not make our campaign setting 'hack and slash' or 'Diablo 2-esque'Who said anything about throwing a tantrum? Eberron is underpopulated by the official numbers, which has some wide reaching implications if you actually dig into it. So, you simply increase the population. Thats not a tantrum.What the hell happened to you man? You used to be helpful and open-minded, now all you seem to do is spout out elitist BS like the post above.Hey, don't look at me. I'm not the one making threads about how to put subraces and guns and everything else under the sun into Eberron as a default. I'm not changing, my views of what Eberron is and should be are the same as they always were. Just everybody else is changing and moving towards making things generic. But if you look back up in the thread, I was responding a post that was essentially "You're all stupid for paying attention to the details!" No, the details are what make this setting so cool, they're not something to be glossed over and ignored. I still consider myself to be open-minded, within the setting itself. Just because I don't think we need 100 foot tall giant mechas with laser beam eyes in Eberron doesn't mean I'm not. Although, frankly, I'm not here to make other people happy. I'm here to make me happy. If that helps other people out, great. If that means it ticks some people off at me, thats fine too.Many people feel the need NOT to get upset at trivial things in an otherwise very good book. How the hell does that make our campaign setting anymore or anyless realistic or an anyless thriving Eberron than yours?You seem to be confused. It is possible to enjoy something and still have nitpicks with it. Pointing out those nitpicks and trying to find ways to fix them does not suddenly make you someone that hates the entire thing. It just means you actually care about what you're talking about and would like to make it better. I work under the assumption that everything WotC puts out is not God's gift to gaming. I mean, I loved PGtE, I think its one of the absolute best books for the setting ever printed. Doesn't mean I have to ignore where it screws up, IMO.
Azazyll 03-14-06, 10:04 PM	I'm sorry, I have to agree with Orion Polaris on this one Hey, don't look at me. I'm not the one making threads about how to put subraces and guns and everything else under the sun into Eberron as a default. I'm not changing, my views of what Eberron is and should be are the same as they always were. Just everybody else is changing and moving towards making things generic. No one is trying to put these things into eberron as a default. Even WotC is being very circumspect with the option of aditional races. none of them are being used in the setting, they are barely integrated at all, they are simply allowing options. We here on the boards are discussing ways to include subraces and guns and such in OUR games. In stead of helpful ideas, we get elitist opinions. You hand down verdicts as if you somehow hold the only true interpretation of what Eberron can be. Take a hint on grace and tact from Keith. He has a lot more reason to be upset than you do and you don't see him putting other people down, trampling over the ideas and desires of others, or whining about losing some quintessential eberron spark. And it's his setting more than anyone elses. The difference is, he's willing to share it with others. I still consider myself to be open-minded, within the setting itself. Just because I don't think we need 100 foot tall giant mechas with laser beam eyes in Eberron doesn't mean I'm not. Always building a ridiculous straw man is getting really old. That's not what's happening. That doesn't even appear to be the way things are going. But if someone got on the messageboards and said "how could I incorporate mechas into eberron" I would try to come up with ideas and be eager to see what other people came up with. You're not open minded about what is "within the setting itself", and that ends up making you remarkably close minded. Although, frankly, I'm not here to make other people happy. I'm here to make me happy. If that helps other people out, great. If that means it ticks some people off at me, thats fine too. Neutral Evil if I ever saw it. You once said you didn't care what other people thought about you. If that were the case, you wouldn't be posting, you'd be lurking. If that. What arrogant selfishness. This is a community of people trying to have fun together. Deliberately ticking people off (and I can't imagine you don't know how to say things nicely) is the kind of stuff that frankly should get your posts on this messageboard moderated. You seem to be confused. It is possible to enjoy something and still have nitpicks with it. Pointing out those nitpicks and trying to find ways to fix them does not suddenly make you someone that hates the entire thing. It just means you actually care about what you're talking about and would like to make it better. No one here is confused. No one here would say you don't care about eberron. No one is saying the nitpickers don't care about eberron. That's a ridiculously extreme statement to make, and quite frankly it moves past the rude or inflamatory into the hurtful range. Yes, some people here are saying they believe that demographics don't really matter to the roleplaying. But they're not denegrating the people who do, they're stating their opinion on the matter. I work under the assumption that everything WotC puts out is not God's gift to gaming. I mean, I loved PGtE, I think its one of the absolute best books for the setting ever printed. Doesn't mean I have to ignore where it screws up, IMO. I doubt anyone thinks that about WotC. Certainly not if they are on the messageboards. But I am glad they publish books and I give them the benefit of the doubt. I also look for the things I like instead of constantly aggrandizing the negative elements as if the world was comign to an end. That doesn't mean I ignore the negative element. I hate the way they put the explorer's handbook together, I was incredibly dissapointed in the mechanics and I was hoping for a lot more. But I'm not telling the people who disagree with me that they're stupid or wrong, or trying to shout them down and shame them into silence. I actually enjoy reading their views because sometimes it changes my mind and helps me to enjoy a book that I previously disliked, because I get to see it in a new light. And that's not possible if people are so aggressive that they silence other people's opinions. Heck, I even get a kick out of what you say occassionaly. I'd hate to lose even one creative mind like yours from this community. But I'd rather have everyone's creative mind, and not be constrained by some vitriolic, conservative drivel. If you like the core eberron so much, just use that. Don't buy the books you don't like. Or ask people on the boards for ideas on how to modify them. No one is forcing you to change your eberron. Not even WotC. Personally, I think that eberron has managed to retain it's differences exceptionally well, and that that difference has nothing to do with subraces or gunpowder or anything like that. In fact, if something as silly as that brought down eberron and make it like every other setting, I would argue that it wasn't really different in the first place. I try to discuss problems on these boards in a civilized adult manner. I believe there's no excuse for not even trying to be polite. We all get riled up some times (I am right now, I'm sure I've said some overly harsh things, and I'm sorry). But the vast majority of us our trying to get along, to help each other out, and improve everyone's experience of Eberron and D&D. You have admitted that you don't care about anyone's experience but your own, and that is deplorable. I was overjoyed to see Orion Polaris finally call you on it.
WizO_Sith 03-14-06, 10:14 PM	Time for the traditional in-thread warning. Play nice, or play elsewhere. Thanks.
ekomega 03-14-06, 10:43 PM	I don't think there's a problem. Let me give an example from my own expertise. Between San Diego, CA and Los Angeles, CA, you can drive and always see civilization. It's 120+ miles of nothing but city with one exception, Camp Pendleton, which the military occupies and keeps empty. That's kind of like Sharn. But if you go east from San Diego, there's nothing for 100 miles until you get to El Centro, which is a one horse town. If you continue for 20 more miles, you get to Yuma, which is a two horse town. Then, you can drive another 300 miles and get to the first big city, Tucson. But there's nothing but dirt in between Yuma and Tucson. If you head north from Tucson for 100 miles, you get to Phoenix. But in between is, again, nothing but dirt. Back to Los Angeles. If you head north on Interstate 5, there is nothing for 300 miles. Eventually you get to San Jose, and then San Francisco. North from San Francisco is a populated area. But north of that is nothing until Oregon, which is several hundred miles. If you head east from San Francisco, there is nothing once you get about 50 miles out. All the way through to Nevada and then some. You get into National Forest territory, which is about as wilderness as you can get. Basically, in through California to Arizona, there is only a major city every several hundred miles. The situation is similar through New Mexico and Texas. You can drive through Southern New Mexico on I-10/20, and go through the entire width of the state without seeing a town of more than 2000. That's several hundred miles. Basically, there's nothing between Tucson and El Paso, on that road. Between Dallas and Austin, and Austin and San Antonio, and San Antonio and Houston, there's nothing but farms and open space. And they're all several hundred miles apart. Now, if we compare the sizes and distances of cities in the USA to Khorvaire, I think it's pretty reasonable. Khorvaire has similar distances between major cities, only they don't have freeways, they have lightning rails. And Khorvaire can't support a population of 10 million like Los Angeles, but they can support a city like Sharn. It may seem like our modern world has no empty space, but only because we are never traveling as far as the people in Eberron. I may drive from San Diego to Los Angeles, or even San Francisco, but I have to take a plane flight to get to New York. And yet going from Sharn to Korth is like going from San Diego to New York (and requires an airship, like a plane). I rarely make these trips. In Eberron, they have to travel between big cities for adventure and whatever. Most of us in reality don't.
maollelujah 03-14-06, 11:24 PM	I really don't have a problem with the population. Once you factor in children, the population would stand about 22 to 25 million. Since the young (between 0-14) of a non-industrial country is about 30% to 40% of the total population and the 16 million is just for adults. Now Humans have only been here for 2,000 or 3,000 years and the starting population must have been small (several thousand to a few tens of thousands?), so to get to around 10 million from such a small beginning is rather impressive. Most of the other populations (elves and dwarves) are similar to the humans in terms of only starting with small populations too. Plus these populations must grow slightly slower than human populations since they don't grow to adulthood as fast. Just think of Europe in the 700s population-wise but with a better technology. Most of the people are centered on small civilized areas with vast wildernesses surrounding them. As for the spanning the large gaps, magic can be a great aid.
dang 03-14-06, 11:31 PM	People considered the West part of the US in the late 1800's dispite the fact that native americans actually controlled a sizeable part of it. But, if you looked at census data of that time period, I doubt the figures included them. But the old west was hardly a barren wasteland. To say so suggested that the native americans don't count as real humans. i hope you didn't think i suggested any such thing! :confused: you're making my point (maybe more clearly, but my point, nonetheless). the plight of american aboriginal peoples throughout history was to what i was referring with "historical tragedy." my points were that they were uncounted, but also that despite their presence, the population of north america was low compared to other continents -- even given the higher estimate figures -- but still included dense urban areas. The way I see it, there is a slim dusting of humanity clinging to the roads & rails like cobwebs. Part of Eberrons grandeur is that so much of it is, if not unexplored, at least unsettled. amen. i agree.
dystmesis 03-15-06, 01:08 AM	Humans have lived on Khorvaire for 4000 years. Also, the Neolithic Revolution, if you believe in such a thing, occured in Eberron 80,000 years ago. On Earth it occured 12,500 years ago.
Setherial 03-15-06, 03:29 AM	In my experience, everyone on this board that doesn't use Eberron as just another hack and slash setting. Those of us that like to make a living, thriving world with more to it than just what the PCs happen to be looking at at that exact moment. Those of us who like to look at population centers and judge what sort of material should be available based on population. When we look and see what should be one of the greatest cities in the world, and it averages out as having a half dozen people per square mile, its jarring, because by the books, yes, Eberron is an underpopulated stretch of nothing. How does the civilized areas even stay in contact with each other when its a hundred miles of nothing between villiages? How does any given nation raise an army that winds up being a tenth of said country's entire population? Can we fix that? Yeah, pretty easily, by multiplying the entire populations by 10 (or shrinking all of the known world by a factor of 10), but again, its one of those obvious things that someone should have caught earlier. Those of us that actually run a roleplaying game instead of Diablo II: Eberron Expansion prefer not having to houserule half the setting just to make it work because the guy writing a particular section didn't know what he was doing. Again, variation on the Oberroni Falacy (geez, if I keep saying this one, we might get the Edymnion Falacy started). Just because the DM can fix it doesn't mean it wasn't written incorrectly to begin with. Whatever man, if this is what you believe then that is fine with me. The reason I visit these boards is to find people who are creative and post new refreshing ideas and in return I post my ideas. I'm sure you love to read all about what color of shoes King Boranel wears on weekends or how many warforged fit inside an airship but these things I personally can come up with by myself as they are unimportant details and I have better things to do with my time then to discuss them here. You're a fine writer man and I'm sure you run a great game but don't pretend you are better then the rest of us.
Volaran 03-15-06, 09:29 AM	Just some thoughts here. I don't have anything formal, or comparitive real world statistics or examples to back this up. The question of national identity was brought up. If cities are as isolated as population figures make them seem, towns clustered around trade routes and lightning rails, there are still reasons to have seperate identities. Galifar never effectively controlled the territory it complained. Even after the conquests of Galifar I, the nations remained effectively seperate in many ways. Five Nations illustrates many of the cultural differences. As for why there isn't further fracturing, there are other factors in play. The Dragonmarked houses have long held impressive economic power. Under the kingdom of Galifar, this power was sanctioned and endorsed by the government. It would be hard to believe that any traditional noble family could rival a dragonmarked house. The Wynarns themselves only did so due to control over the government, and aside from being decentralized, it doesn't seem to have lasted the way the Houses have. Sivis enables regular continent-wide communication. Aside from enabling individuals to communicate, this means that wide-spanning organizations (guilds, governments, ect) can effectively communicate. This also means that through the newspapers (of which the Korranburg Chronical is just the most famous), people are reading the same news. Things like this seem to give people a sense of shared identity. One must also remember that to a certain degree, the regions are fracturing. 5 nations went into the Last War, but 12 came out, and 1 was annihilated. The Eldeen Reaches seem more of an alliance based on the protection of the druids. Talenta is a nation only on paper, with Valenar raiding through it, and Karrnath staking claims. Q'barra does have two distinct groups of settlers, each grouped around a small city. Shared goals and setbacks during the war no doubt helped bolster national identiy. Still, in peace, there is stress showing. Karrnath has declared formed champions to be terrorists (The Emerald Claw) and has yet to end martial law, Breland's parliment has elements pushing for abolishing the monarchy. Sharn is Breland's greatest city, but many citizens don't seem to think much beyond their home. Fractures are showing. Oddly enough, Thrane seems the most likely to remain unified in that respect. Their primary religion holding direct control over the government seems to have actually worked well in this regard. I think that an interesting approach for a campaign focusing on the Next War might be the fracturing of the current nations. Sharn declares itself a seperate city state, and despite Breland's attempts to re-take it, civic governments across the continent begin questioning what their national governments are really doing that benefits them. The dragonmarked houses may even encourage such a thing. They enjoyed prosperity during Galifar, and the spoils of the Last War. Long term however, it might serve them to encourage a continent full of independant city states. That would leave the Houses and perhaps the Silver Flame as the only organized, continent-spanning organizations.
KBAZZ 03-15-06, 10:51 AM	Certainly human reproductive rates would cause a system such as these nation states to support larger numbers, however on earth we populate at a high rate and are the sole advanced beast. In a setting such as eberron its possible that human reproduction is being control by the dragons as part of the overplot lol call it dragon sponsered birth control or a much better explanation is a current trend the more highly educated and social responsible cultures on earth have the lowest birth rates, in fact in some nations with very educated pop's the growth is in reverse. It is quite possible that the majority of eberron is just filled with highly educated people who have only 1 child per couple in general for a few generations. That will more then account for reduced pop's , unless the book says that the majority of the humans are poor uneducated people with 12 kids each.
Orion Polaris 03-15-06, 02:13 PM	Mankind has also had himself to deal with on Earth. In Khorvaire, they've had to deal with a consistently more hostile force of sentient beings. Ogres, Goblinoids(who probably would've been vicious in their attempts to repel the humans), Medusae, and all kinds of magical beasts that we've never had to contend with. That and 1/5th of their populations are gone because of the loss of Cyre, the massacres by Darguun and Valenar, etc. Real world statistics do not fit well into Khorvaire, they've just had WAY too many things happen there that we haven't had happen in our world. Are the stats a bit low? Yes. Is it a big problem? No. Does not seeing it as a big problem suddenly make your campaign a less living and unrealistic one? No. Does it make it a Diablo 2 clone? No, and insinuating that a campaign is less living or more like a video game than your own just shows a great disrespect for other peoples opinions and/or campaign settings. It shows a great lack of maturity to not be able to accept other peoples opinions without having to demean the person(or the product of his creativity). Was my outburst earlier in this topic unwarranted? Probably. Was it uncalled for? Heck no. It's posts like Edymnions post that are scaring people away from this board, snide comments that make new people to this board afraid to share their opinions, for fear of being assaulted by snide unhelpful comments or get lamented upon because their Eberron doesn't match with the narrowminded views of a few purists. Are the topics about firearms and gundams in Eberron mildly irritating? Yes, but I'd rather put up with one or two of those topics a month then not have them and have no other useful implementations. I originally logged in today and was going to post and apologize for my former outburst, but after reading a couple of the messages in my inbox, I've come to know that I'm not the only one whose noted the recent trend in elitism on this board. Guns in Eberron? 100 foot mecha? Yeah they aren't realistic, but heh, that doesn't mean campaigns that feature them are in anyway inferior to anyone elses.
Yare 03-15-06, 03:18 PM	(Didn't read the thread, but I'll proceed with my sarcastic reply unhindered) Congratulations! You've figured out what happens to an agrarian society's population after fighting a century-long war with near-industrial levels of firepower. Let's not forget the fact that much of the land is used for farming, or populated by unfriendly, man-eating creatures. And you know, the wholesale obliteration of an entire country doesn't help, either. A WINNER IS YOU
Spirit_Golem 03-16-06, 01:13 AM	Looking at my Eberron map from an old issue of Dungeon Magazine, it seems to me that alot of the landmass of Khorvaire should not be taken into account because of it being rather uninhabitable. Most of the Demon Wastes, Droaam, and Darguun, and a fair amount of the Shadow Marches, Q'barra, the Mror Holds the Eldeen Reaches, and the Blade Desert are either difficult or impossible to live in. Think of the example given by Nerdicus: the majority of Canada is uninhabited because most of the land in Canada cannot sustain cities. As a Canadian, I know that 90% of Canadians live within 100 Kilometers of the U.S. boarder, simply because of the permafrost in areas that are farther north. Permafrost is when the ground literaly freezes for long periods of time, thereby making all but the thoughest plants unable to grow in the soil. My example of the problem of permafrost is similar to the effects of the problems in the areas of Khorvaire that I ahve listed earlier. Basically, it doesn't matter how much land you have, but how much you can actually use.
Volaran 03-16-06, 02:08 AM	I see this problem brought up a fair amount with Eberron. Has anyone done a comparison with the population statistics in the FR campaign setting. I seem to remember when their campaign setting came out for 3E, one of the authors (Sean K Reynolds, maybe) giving a few examples. For instance, in 3E, Calimport's population is 1/10th what it was in the last 2E product to detail it. As another example, I seem to recall discussions about the Kalamar setting where the size of standing armies seemed rediculously small compared to the size of the various countries they served.
Thramzorean 03-16-06, 04:44 AM	You have to be pretty careful how you generalize here too. Who ever did the scale of the continent may have worked it out on in the general proportion of the world and the other continents and say that's the only size that makes any sense geographically. Certainly shrinking the Khorvaire by 1/10th makes for a pretty small world. It's something that really needs to be studied from the ground up again. Not that it has made any issues in gameplay. Pity somebody couldn't do a population density map, heh.
GungHo 03-17-06, 04:38 PM	Like others have stated, I kind of rationalize the "lowish" population as 1. Humanity's general "newness" to the world. 2. A great big continental war just killed a bunch of people off. 3. There are large portions of the world that are uninhabitable by normal critters, either due to "it never was all that nice" or to "it got blowed up." 4. Due to lack of resources to begin with and displaced critters from realms that were "blowed up", "Sorry, Sally, Little Jimmy was eaten by a displacer beast, guess we gotta make another" may not be all that uncommon a story.
UnkemptSage 03-17-06, 05:40 PM	4. Due to lack of resources to begin with and displaced critters from realms that were "blowed up", "Sorry, Sally, Little Jimmy was eaten by a displacer beast, guess we gotta make another" may not be all that uncommon a story. I think we need another Jimmy!
boytbpc 03-20-06, 04:45 AM	So, the numbers show that the current population is about 16 million. A few years ago the numbers were up a million to a little over 17. Now, how many people died in the last war. Factor in that wars take those who are most likely to reproduce (young adults versus children and the elderly), then figure out how many were killed in the Last War and the numbers don't seem so bad. To get an understanding of the kind of losses we're talking about I found this page. http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#Mongol Boytbpc
Grey_Mage 03-20-06, 04:49 PM	I say if you include the tribes of monstrous humanoids, goblinoids, orcs, half orcs, and nomad tribes *such as on the talenta planes* youd find a much higher population... probly about three times as high plus other monters and of course room for the ecology, and old ruins including almost all of the mournland. Remember also that not all the towns on a road or lightning rail will nessecairily be shown. Just like on a map of all 50 states, or a large region like new england, or the northwest, or any other area of relatively large size things will get left out for the sake of ease and brevity. I add in small towns all along the major roads, and minor roads to more rural areas... It seems to make a good deal of sense. so when you include smaller towns, and then that about 1/5 people likely died in the last war or from famine or disease caused by it, much like the influenza epidemic after world war one, I think the numbers very reasonable.