Eberron is Awesome. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Eberron is Awesome. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cincinnati
10-30-06, 12:59 PM Why did it take me so long to realize this?

Was it everyone I know in gaming telling me "Eberron sucks" and complaining about anime, robots, and airships?

Was it the artwork in the books? When I flipped through them at the store it didn't really look like traditional D&D art.

Was it the giant argument between FR fanboys and Eberron supporters all over the web?

What was it? I don't care. I finally broke down and picked up the Campaign Setting, "Five Nations," and "Explorer's Handbook" and I must say, I am hooked.

I can't wait to play in this setting. It's actually exciting, unlike some other settings of the past. It's a full world that captures and sparks my imagination like nothing else in D&D has.

Wizards has made a convert of me! Eberron is nothing like the nay-sayers claim. I can't imagine why there are so many haters out there.
(Psi)SeveredHead
10-30-06, 06:37 PM Why did it take me so long to realize this?

Was it everyone I know in gaming telling me "Eberron sucks" and complaining about anime, robots, and airships?

Because of WotC's poor marketing. Warforged and the train were highlighted rather than less irritating parts of the setting. (Actually I don't find warforged irritating, but many people do.) People assumed it was steampunk, and assumed it was DnD with guns. (That's called Urban Arcana, which is a bad setting, IMO.)

Was it the artwork in the books? When I flipped through them at the store it didn't really look like traditional D&D art.

A little. (I like the artwork.)

Was it the giant argument between FR fanboys and Eberron supporters all over the web?

Yes ... a lot of FR fans jumped settings. This is one reason why many Eberron fans can accurately quote problems with FR, whereas most FR fans can't accurately quote problems with Eberron. FR fans point out (perhaps correctly) that at least some of FR's problems could be corrected by DMing things "appropriately", but if the setting can only be run by 1% of DMs out there, I think there's a problem... Eberron deliberately avoids many errors made by FR (for instance, Eberron deliberately avoids interventionist deities and ridiculously over-the-top good-aligned NPCs). Maybe such errors will eventually plague Eberron, but that won't be for a long time.

Basically Eberron makes FR look bad, and since FR is a popular setting, FR has many fans who attack Eberron. Things like Chosen of Mystra made FR unique; I don't think they were good things for the setting, but true FR fans will still like them and so defend them. Eberron fans throw dirt on these special things, sparking hatred.

What was it? I don't care. I finally broke down and picked up the Campaign Setting, "Five Nations," and "Explorer's Handbook" and I must say, I am hooked.

I can't wait to play in this setting. It's actually exciting, unlike some other settings of the past. It's a full world that captures and sparks my imagination like nothing else in D&D has.

Wizards has made a convert of me! Eberron is nothing like the nay-sayers claim. I can't imagine why there are so many haters out there.

Cheers!
ArcTan
10-30-06, 06:41 PM Because of WotC's poor marketing. Warforged and the train were highlighted rather than less irritating parts of the setting. (Actually I don't find warforged irritating, but many people do.) People assumed it was steampunk, and assumed it was DnD with guns. (That's called Urban Arcana, which is a bad setting, IMO.)

Urban Arcana is only a bad setting because it's not much of a setting. It's *literally* D&D with guns, i.e. random monsters, artifacts, items, spells and so on ported directly from D&D with as little alteration as possible right into the modern world, with almost no explanation for how they got here.

On the other hand, a rethinking and retooling of fantasy archetypes for the modern world that actually had a modicum of thought behind it has the potential to be very awesome. Quite a few very awesome things have come from that conceit. (I personally do consider White Wolf's World of Darkness setting to have had a lot of awesomeness in its day, despite all the problems they also had.)
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer
10-30-06, 06:57 PM I know just how you feel. Now Dont get me wrong, I like Forgotten Realms, I still play there and have Charicters that are legends still spoken of out of game. But Ive been playing for easaly over 15 years, and it was getting stale. Ebberon is a breath of fresh air, its got a dynamisism that Ferun lacks, its close enough to RL I can skim my morning paper for plotlines, and far enough away that were not limited by that, and it still lets you play a straight sword and sorcery game if you want.
ornitholestes
10-30-06, 08:24 PM Glad to here it, Eberron is a great setting that is inovative and a blast to play!

I also have fond memories of the Forgotten Realms and wouldn't mind playing in a campaign from both settings if I had the time (though I would much rather play or DM Eberron if I only get to do one). I think such rivalries are a part of any thing "geeky" or that has a devoted fan base. Battles like these are especially prevelant on the Internet where the most vocal and enthusiastic fans inhabit the message boards and review sites. I remember when Lord of the Rings was coming out, the rivalry between LoTR and Harry Potter appeared huge. If you assumed that message boards mirrored public opinion, you would think the movies were diameterically opposite and no one could like both. That said, the majority of fantasy fans I knew in the real world like both movies (or at worst were apathetic to the one they didn't prefer).
Shady314
10-30-06, 08:29 PM If I couldn't harbor irrational hatreds for anything I didn't like and couldn't make publically known anonymously through a message board I just don't know what I'd do with myself. Probably something productive. I'm sure I'm not the only one so there you go. That pretty much explains the internet in general.
Splendide
10-30-06, 09:39 PM Eberron's artwork was a bit of a selling point IMO. I never liked `traditional' D&D art like you saw in the 80s and 90s...the art in `The Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings', that kind of art, just not a fan.

More modern illustrative art (not crappy photoshops - please don't go there Wizards) is good stuff and is the norm for Eberron; I think thats great.
(Psi)SeveredHead
10-31-06, 07:38 AM On the other hand, a rethinking and retooling of fantasy archetypes for the modern world that actually had a modicum of thought behind it has the potential to be very awesome. Quite a few very awesome things have come from that conceit. (I personally do consider White Wolf's World of Darkness setting to have had a lot of awesomeness in its day, despite all the problems they also had.)

They did that with Dark Matter. Sort of with Shadowrun too.
goblin_pride
10-31-06, 07:54 AM What was it? I don't care. I finally broke down and picked up the Campaign Setting, "Five Nations," and "Explorer's Handbook" and I must say, I am hooked.

For me it was the gaps that were left undeveloped. With settings like FR, one of the first things I always have to do is discard half the material so I can make the world my own, with Eberron I didn't have to do that.
Salla
11-01-06, 03:58 PM For me it was the gaps that were left undeveloped. With settings like FR, one of the first things I always have to do is discard half the material so I can make the world my own, with Eberron I didn't have to do that.

So true. So many Eberron elements go into my homebrews ...

I have few good memories of FR, myself, though a lot of that is the side effects of being coerced into running it by FR fanboys, and in this case, I do mean FR fanboys, as in 'Even when I have made it clear that this game is not in the Forgotten Realms, they ask if Drizzt and Elminster exist there at least three times'. When I did run FR, they went crying to whatever high-level NPC was supposed to be nearby whenever anything interesting happened because they wanted to 'watch him work' instead of being the heroes.

Feh. If I ever do FR (unlikely), I'm going to advance things a few years and kill off every high-level munchkin on the planet. :)
Pallin Rahl
11-01-06, 04:21 PM Then there's the flip-side to that, in FR...
King: "We need your small group of adventurers to kill the Dragon terrorizing our fair kingdom!"
PCs: "Why doesn't Elminster just snap his fingers and make the Dragon explode?"
King: "Well... you see... uh... he's busy getting his hair done for his date with Mystra... or something... You're our only hope!"
PCs: "What about the other 10 epic NPCs that live down the street?"
King: "I don't know... they're on vacation or something. Do you want the quest or not?"

;)

A world filled-to-the-brim with epic level badarses can work fine in novels and videogames... but it's always bugged me when I thought about how it would have to play out in an actual campaign...

If you enjoy plaing in FR, more power to ya... there's no "right" campaign setting for everyone. ...just what's the "right" campaign setting for you and your group. For my group, it's normally homebrew. ...but we've all been having a blast in Eberron as well (since I've been running it). :)
Raziel_Brokodar
11-01-06, 05:38 PM Eberron is Awesome.

Obviously lol, bout time you figured it out!
MartM
11-02-06, 02:13 AM The best change is the limited high-lvl magic. No ressurection at the temple next door. That's perfect, now player fear death even if they are rich.
Altar_Boy
11-02-06, 08:27 PM Wizards has made a convert of me! Eberron is nothing like the nay-sayers claim.

Good for you. As happy as I am for your Eb-loving, I'm more pleased that you didn't let close-minded people get in the way of your enjoyment. :clap:
OneWinged4ngel
11-02-06, 08:32 PM Wizards has made a convert of me! Eberron is nothing like the nay-sayers claim. I can't imagine why there are so many haters out there.

There are lots of haters because ignorant people form strong opinions about things before they really even understand anything about it, be it from hearsay or a quick browsing that gives an incomplete picture.

For example, Warforged are hardly robots... nothing in Eberron is based on anime but ignorant people seem to think that shifters are catgirls (Which they... in no way whatsoever resemble.)... Eberron is in no way steampunk... and some people with narrow experience seem to think that airships automatically makes it Final Fantasy-based (Despite the wide-range of fantasy that includes them). And yet some people hear things about it, get an incomplete picture, and for some strange reason believe it as gospel truth, take it to the letter, and think they have the whole picture.

*sigh*

Well, glad you figured it out! Enjoy!
Cincinnati
11-02-06, 08:42 PM Eberron is in no way steampunk... and some people with narrow experience seem to think that airships automatically makes it Final Fantasy-based (Despite the wide-range of fantasy that includes them).

I'm really glad I got the complete picture too. There's really nothing "steampunk" about it like you say.

The whole airship thing is a "straw man" as well - let's remember even the Forgotten Realms have airships (Halruaan). I can't see basing an irrational hatred of Eberron on this one detail. (Or the Warforged thing - there have always been constructs in D&D, for example the clockwork horror).
OneWinged4ngel
11-02-06, 09:50 PM I'm really glad I got the complete picture too. There's really nothing "steampunk" about it like you say.

The whole airship thing is a "straw man" as well - let's remember even the Forgotten Realms have airships (Halruaan). I can't see basing an irrational hatred of Eberron on this one detail. (Or the Warforged thing - there have always been constructs in D&D, for example the clockwork horror).

Another psychological issue driving the whole thing that might explain why the FR players so uppity about this to the point where it's been something the mods of the FR boards have had to step in on is that I think they may feel that their setting is being "replaced" and Wizard's top-supported setting (Or at least, it's a fully supported setting which may conflict with their wish for *their* setting to get more support), and they don't like that... and that misplaced hatred naturally gets poured onto the thing taking its place by immature people. Just like if someone might hate some guy who took his job and points out exaggerated flaws in him, even though he didn't really do anything to him, and might actually be better qualified.

Not saying that anything's better or worse... just pointing out what seems to be going on with all the haters. Generally, anyone pointing out any of those reasons I listed in my last post (robots, anime, etc) are immature and ignorant of the setting. This shouldn't reflect on FR players in general, of course... this sort of thinking applies to immature and ignorant people in general.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cincinnati 10-30-06, 12:59 PM	Why did it take me so long to realize this? Was it everyone I know in gaming telling me "Eberron sucks" and complaining about anime, robots, and airships? Was it the artwork in the books? When I flipped through them at the store it didn't really look like traditional D&D art. Was it the giant argument between FR fanboys and Eberron supporters all over the web? What was it? I don't care. I finally broke down and picked up the Campaign Setting, "Five Nations," and "Explorer's Handbook" and I must say, I am hooked. I can't wait to play in this setting. It's actually exciting, unlike some other settings of the past. It's a full world that captures and sparks my imagination like nothing else in D&D has. Wizards has made a convert of me! Eberron is nothing like the nay-sayers claim. I can't imagine why there are so many haters out there.
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-30-06, 06:37 PM	Why did it take me so long to realize this? Was it everyone I know in gaming telling me "Eberron sucks" and complaining about anime, robots, and airships? Because of WotC's poor marketing. Warforged and the train were highlighted rather than less irritating parts of the setting. (Actually I don't find warforged irritating, but many people do.) People assumed it was steampunk, and assumed it was DnD with guns. (That's called Urban Arcana, which is a bad setting, IMO.) Was it the artwork in the books? When I flipped through them at the store it didn't really look like traditional D&D art. A little. (I like the artwork.) Was it the giant argument between FR fanboys and Eberron supporters all over the web? Yes ... a lot of FR fans jumped settings. This is one reason why many Eberron fans can accurately quote problems with FR, whereas most FR fans can't accurately quote problems with Eberron. FR fans point out (perhaps correctly) that at least some of FR's problems could be corrected by DMing things "appropriately", but if the setting can only be run by 1% of DMs out there, I think there's a problem... Eberron deliberately avoids many errors made by FR (for instance, Eberron deliberately avoids interventionist deities and ridiculously over-the-top good-aligned NPCs). Maybe such errors will eventually plague Eberron, but that won't be for a long time. Basically Eberron makes FR look bad, and since FR is a popular setting, FR has many fans who attack Eberron. Things like Chosen of Mystra made FR unique; I don't think they were good things for the setting, but true FR fans will still like them and so defend them. Eberron fans throw dirt on these special things, sparking hatred. What was it? I don't care. I finally broke down and picked up the Campaign Setting, "Five Nations," and "Explorer's Handbook" and I must say, I am hooked. I can't wait to play in this setting. It's actually exciting, unlike some other settings of the past. It's a full world that captures and sparks my imagination like nothing else in D&D has. Wizards has made a convert of me! Eberron is nothing like the nay-sayers claim. I can't imagine why there are so many haters out there. Cheers!
ArcTan 10-30-06, 06:41 PM	Because of WotC's poor marketing. Warforged and the train were highlighted rather than less irritating parts of the setting. (Actually I don't find warforged irritating, but many people do.) People assumed it was steampunk, and assumed it was DnD with guns. (That's called Urban Arcana, which is a bad setting, IMO.) Urban Arcana is only a bad setting because it's not much of a setting. It's literally D&D with guns, i.e. random monsters, artifacts, items, spells and so on ported directly from D&D with as little alteration as possible right into the modern world, with almost no explanation for how they got here. On the other hand, a rethinking and retooling of fantasy archetypes for the modern world that actually had a modicum of thought behind it has the potential to be very awesome. Quite a few very awesome things have come from that conceit. (I personally do consider White Wolf's World of Darkness setting to have had a lot of awesomeness in its day, despite all the problems they also had.)
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 10-30-06, 06:57 PM	I know just how you feel. Now Dont get me wrong, I like Forgotten Realms, I still play there and have Charicters that are legends still spoken of out of game. But Ive been playing for easaly over 15 years, and it was getting stale. Ebberon is a breath of fresh air, its got a dynamisism that Ferun lacks, its close enough to RL I can skim my morning paper for plotlines, and far enough away that were not limited by that, and it still lets you play a straight sword and sorcery game if you want.
ornitholestes 10-30-06, 08:24 PM	Glad to here it, Eberron is a great setting that is inovative and a blast to play! I also have fond memories of the Forgotten Realms and wouldn't mind playing in a campaign from both settings if I had the time (though I would much rather play or DM Eberron if I only get to do one). I think such rivalries are a part of any thing "geeky" or that has a devoted fan base. Battles like these are especially prevelant on the Internet where the most vocal and enthusiastic fans inhabit the message boards and review sites. I remember when Lord of the Rings was coming out, the rivalry between LoTR and Harry Potter appeared huge. If you assumed that message boards mirrored public opinion, you would think the movies were diameterically opposite and no one could like both. That said, the majority of fantasy fans I knew in the real world like both movies (or at worst were apathetic to the one they didn't prefer).
Shady314 10-30-06, 08:29 PM	If I couldn't harbor irrational hatreds for anything I didn't like and couldn't make publically known anonymously through a message board I just don't know what I'd do with myself. Probably something productive. I'm sure I'm not the only one so there you go. That pretty much explains the internet in general.
Splendide 10-30-06, 09:39 PM	Eberron's artwork was a bit of a selling point IMO. I never liked `traditional' D&D art like you saw in the 80s and 90s...the art in `The Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings', that kind of art, just not a fan. More modern illustrative art (not crappy photoshops - please don't go there Wizards) is good stuff and is the norm for Eberron; I think thats great.
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-31-06, 07:38 AM	On the other hand, a rethinking and retooling of fantasy archetypes for the modern world that actually had a modicum of thought behind it has the potential to be very awesome. Quite a few very awesome things have come from that conceit. (I personally do consider White Wolf's World of Darkness setting to have had a lot of awesomeness in its day, despite all the problems they also had.) They did that with Dark Matter. Sort of with Shadowrun too.
goblin_pride 10-31-06, 07:54 AM	What was it? I don't care. I finally broke down and picked up the Campaign Setting, "Five Nations," and "Explorer's Handbook" and I must say, I am hooked. For me it was the gaps that were left undeveloped. With settings like FR, one of the first things I always have to do is discard half the material so I can make the world my own, with Eberron I didn't have to do that.
Salla 11-01-06, 03:58 PM	For me it was the gaps that were left undeveloped. With settings like FR, one of the first things I always have to do is discard half the material so I can make the world my own, with Eberron I didn't have to do that. So true. So many Eberron elements go into my homebrews ... I have few good memories of FR, myself, though a lot of that is the side effects of being coerced into running it by FR fanboys, and in this case, I do mean FR fanboys, as in 'Even when I have made it clear that this game is not in the Forgotten Realms, they ask if Drizzt and Elminster exist there at least three times'. When I did run FR, they went crying to whatever high-level NPC was supposed to be nearby whenever anything interesting happened because they wanted to 'watch him work' instead of being the heroes. Feh. If I ever do FR (unlikely), I'm going to advance things a few years and kill off every high-level munchkin on the planet. :)
Pallin Rahl 11-01-06, 04:21 PM	Then there's the flip-side to that, in FR... King: "We need your small group of adventurers to kill the Dragon terrorizing our fair kingdom!" PCs: "Why doesn't Elminster just snap his fingers and make the Dragon explode?" King: "Well... you see... uh... he's busy getting his hair done for his date with Mystra... or something... You're our only hope!" PCs: "What about the other 10 epic NPCs that live down the street?" King: "I don't know... they're on vacation or something. Do you want the quest or not?" ;) A world filled-to-the-brim with epic level badarses can work fine in novels and videogames... but it's always bugged me when I thought about how it would have to play out in an actual campaign... If you enjoy plaing in FR, more power to ya... there's no "right" campaign setting for everyone. ...just what's the "right" campaign setting for you and your group. For my group, it's normally homebrew. ...but we've all been having a blast in Eberron as well (since I've been running it). :)
Raziel_Brokodar 11-01-06, 05:38 PM	Eberron is Awesome. Obviously lol, bout time you figured it out!
MartM 11-02-06, 02:13 AM	The best change is the limited high-lvl magic. No ressurection at the temple next door. That's perfect, now player fear death even if they are rich.
Altar_Boy 11-02-06, 08:27 PM	Wizards has made a convert of me! Eberron is nothing like the nay-sayers claim. Good for you. As happy as I am for your Eb-loving, I'm more pleased that you didn't let close-minded people get in the way of your enjoyment. :clap:
OneWinged4ngel 11-02-06, 08:32 PM	Wizards has made a convert of me! Eberron is nothing like the nay-sayers claim. I can't imagine why there are so many haters out there. There are lots of haters because ignorant people form strong opinions about things before they really even understand anything about it, be it from hearsay or a quick browsing that gives an incomplete picture. For example, Warforged are hardly robots... nothing in Eberron is based on anime but ignorant people seem to think that shifters are catgirls (Which they... in no way whatsoever resemble.)... Eberron is in no way steampunk... and some people with narrow experience seem to think that airships automatically makes it Final Fantasy-based (Despite the wide-range of fantasy that includes them). And yet some people hear things about it, get an incomplete picture, and for some strange reason believe it as gospel truth, take it to the letter, and think they have the whole picture. sigh Well, glad you figured it out! Enjoy!
Cincinnati 11-02-06, 08:42 PM	Eberron is in no way steampunk... and some people with narrow experience seem to think that airships automatically makes it Final Fantasy-based (Despite the wide-range of fantasy that includes them). I'm really glad I got the complete picture too. There's really nothing "steampunk" about it like you say. The whole airship thing is a "straw man" as well - let's remember even the Forgotten Realms have airships (Halruaan). I can't see basing an irrational hatred of Eberron on this one detail. (Or the Warforged thing - there have always been constructs in D&D, for example the clockwork horror).
OneWinged4ngel 11-02-06, 09:50 PM	I'm really glad I got the complete picture too. There's really nothing "steampunk" about it like you say. The whole airship thing is a "straw man" as well - let's remember even the Forgotten Realms have airships (Halruaan). I can't see basing an irrational hatred of Eberron on this one detail. (Or the Warforged thing - there have always been constructs in D&D, for example the clockwork horror). Another psychological issue driving the whole thing that might explain why the FR players so uppity about this to the point where it's been something the mods of the FR boards have had to step in on is that I think they may feel that their setting is being "replaced" and Wizard's top-supported setting (Or at least, it's a fully supported setting which may conflict with their wish for their setting to get more support), and they don't like that... and that misplaced hatred naturally gets poured onto the thing taking its place by immature people. Just like if someone might hate some guy who took his job and points out exaggerated flaws in him, even though he didn't really do anything to him, and might actually be better qualified. Not saying that anything's better or worse... just pointing out what seems to be going on with all the haters. Generally, anyone pointing out any of those reasons I listed in my last post (robots, anime, etc) are immature and ignorant of the setting. This shouldn't reflect on FR players in general, of course... this sort of thinking applies to immature and ignorant people in general.