Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ALRUFF 06-08-07, 02:54 PM	Just recently, it was brought to my attention that Baker said that his seminal setting ISN'T steampunk. That's weird. I could've sworn it had telegraphs, airships, trains and automata, as well as ripping good pulp adventure set in a primarily urban environment of exploration and imperialism. Now I want to stir up a bit of gentlemanly debate by asking why he would say it isn't steampunk. Ladies are, of course, also invited to join the fray. Now I don't believe Baker's assertion for one second, and perhaps someone can help me understand his meaning. Maybe the man, himself, will check up on this thread. If so, I would like to extend my cordial invitation for him to defend his ideas for design.
UnderworldLord 06-08-07, 03:03 PM	To put it as simply as I can think to, Eberron isn't steampunk because while it does 'have' those inventions you mentioned they are run by magic, bound elementals, and whatnot. I don't see what having pulp fiction, or the ability to use Urban settings has, since there are as many wild settings (Xen'drik being the prime example here) as there are Urban, and our Eberron does not need to be Pulp in style. I also don't really see imperialism in the setting, per se. Thats just my rough guess at the matter.
OneWinged4ngel 06-08-07, 03:05 PM	Just recently, it was brought to my attention that Baker said that his seminal setting ISN'T steampunk. That's weird. I could've sworn it had telegraphs, airships, trains and automata, as well as ripping good pulp adventure set in a primarily urban environment of exploration and imperialism. Now I want to stir up a bit of gentlemanly debate by asking why he would say it isn't steampunk. Ladies are, of course, also invited to join the fray. Now I don't believe Baker's assertion for one second, and perhaps someone can help me understand his meaning. Maybe the man, himself, will check up on this thread. If so, I would like to extend my cordial invitation for him to defend his ideas for design. :heehee And that, my friends, is how to make a fool of yourself by not having a clue what the definition of the word you're talking about is. There is a complete lack of steam technology. Early final fantasy games have airships, and can hardly be described as Steampunk. Magical messaging exists in FR. Does that make it steampunk? And every D&D game has "automata." Constructs are an entire monster type. The only element you've mentioned that isn't extremely common in similar form in other fantasy settings are the lightning rails. Huge focus on exploration? Not really any more than other D&D settings. Imperialism? Doesn't look like anyplace is taking overseas colonies... I would hardly describe Eberron as being in an era of exploration and imperialism. It's a post-war era with an uneasy peace. There aren't any new settlements popping up in Xen'drik, and Q'barra is just there for refugees creating a new state... not a nation taking up a colony. The elements you're describing here are... mostly in your imagination, it seems. Your definition of steampunk would put a HUGE chunk of fantasy in that realm. Seriously. It's just ridiculous to say that *every other* fantasy can have all those elements and not be steampunk, but Eberron can't. It doesn't make sense to say that "Oh, well now the constructs are a PC race, so that makes it more steampunk than when they're just all over and mindless... like common steampunk robots" or "Oh man, they use magic items that send messages? That must be steampunk!" Pray forbid every other setting that thought of including such an obvious item (and indeed, there are an array of them). Let's examine the ACTUAL definition of steampunk, as opposed to your arbitrary label: Main Entry: steampunk Part of Speech: n Definition: a genre of science fiction set in Victorian times when steam was the main source of machine power; also written [steam-punk] Wow... that doesn't sound like Eberron at all. The argument you've made seems to be only worthy of ridicule to me. You haven't identified any ACTUAL factors that would make Eberron steampunk, but instead pointed out many that are shared by a great deal of other non-steampunk fantasy settings (which cannot possibly help your case) or described factors that really aren't there (a setting of exploration and imperialism? Huh?). I mean really, when your argument can be fully refuted by posting a definition of the word, you just kinda look a bit dumb. Eberron is more Renaissance than victorian, laden with magic instead of steam and clockwork and victorian conceptions of science, and pulp instead of punk. It's hard to be wrong on more fronts than you are. Maybe you'd like an award for that? Like an anti-cookie or something. It'll annihilate and explode violently if it ever touches a cookie. Is there really any more that needs to be said? I think I summed it up. Heh.
stone_dog 06-08-07, 03:11 PM	Steampunk is most properly an alternate history terminology and has heavy victorian era implications. Eberron is renaissance instead of victorian, magic based instead of steam and clockwork and is pulp instead of punk. If Eberron was based around the Victorian understanding of physics, biology, astronomy and society then you would have a point. Even the airships are enchanted boats instead of functioning dirigibles. Truer examples of steampunk include Castle Falkenstein, GURPS Steampunk, Steampunk D20, Cthulu Gaslamp and the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen comic (not movie. very different tones.).
tallric_kruush 06-08-07, 04:44 PM	Yikes. That debate took exactly eleven minutes.
ALRUFF 06-08-07, 04:45 PM	:heehee And that, my friends, is how to make a fool of yourself by not having a clue what the definition of the word you're talking about is. There is a complete lack of steam technology. Early final fantasy games have airships, and can hardly be described as Steampunk. Magical messaging exists in FR. Does that make it steampunk? And every D&D game has "automata." Constructs are an entire monster type. The only element you've mentioned that isn't extremely common in similar form in other fantasy settings are the lightning rails. Huge focus on exploration? Not really any more than other D&D settings. Imperialism? Doesn't look like anyplace is taking overseas colonies... I would hardly describe Eberron as being in an era of exploration and imperialism. It's a post-war era with an uneasy peace. There aren't any new settlements popping up in Xen'drik, and Q'barra is just there for refugees creating a new state... not a nation taking up a colony. The elements you're describing here are... mostly in your imagination, it seems. Your definition of steampunk would put a HUGE chunk of fantasy in that realm. Seriously. It's just ridiculous to say that *every other* fantasy can have all those elements and not be steampunk, but Eberron can't. It doesn't make sense to say that "Oh, well now the constructs are a PC race, so that makes it more steampunk than when they're just all over and mindless... like common steampunk robots" or "Oh man, they use magic items that send messages? That must be steampunk!" Pray forbid every other setting that thought of including such an obvious item (and indeed, there are an array of them). Let's examine the ACTUAL definition of steampunk, as opposed to your arbitrary label: Main Entry: steampunk Part of Speech: n Definition: a genre of science fiction set in Victorian times when steam was the main source of machine power; also written [steam-punk] Wow... that doesn't sound like Eberron at all. The argument you've made seems to be only worthy of ridicule to me. You haven't identified any ACTUAL factors that would make Eberron steampunk, but instead pointed out many that are shared by a great deal of other non-steampunk fantasy settings (which cannot possibly help your case) or described factors that really aren't there (a setting of exploration and imperialism? Huh?). I mean really, when your argument can be fully refuted by posting a definition of the word, you just kinda look a bit dumb. Eberron is more Renaissance than victorian, laden with magic instead of steam and clockwork and victorian conceptions of science, and pulp instead of punk. It's hard to be wrong on more fronts than you are. Maybe you'd like an award for that? Like an anti-cookie or something. It'll annihilate and explode violently if it ever touches a cookie. Is there really any more that needs to be said? I think I summed it up. Heh. Allow me to retort: You're a jerk. You're condescending, and you're wrong. I wanted to be nice on this thread, and you had to come with that weak sauce. You'd never talk like that in real life, but you're more than happy to make fun of me with a computer betwixt the two of us. There is a certain ethereal flair that defines steampunk that travels well beyond the mere "steaminess" of it. Basically, what you're saying is that, by substituting the energy source for magic, it's no longer steampunk. Well, I'd say that a single substitution hardly qualifies as a new genre. If I write a cowboy-fiction wherein they use magic instead of powder, does it lose its Wild West descriptor? Not really. They just use "magic" guns. And what do you mean "not imperialistic?" What country in Khorvaire doesn't have plans to conquer all of the others? Who ISN'T hatching colonies anywhere they can get their claws into, including the Sarlonans? You called me ignorant, but you obviously didn't understand that section of the material. A lot of people lump the FF games (particularly 3) into Steampunk, and I wouldn't disagree. In fact, I'd throw them a pat on the back and a hearty "right-ho" for expanding the definition of the genre. Fine. Whatever. Dieselpunk. Pulp. Magicpunk. Whatever you want to call it, it still has the conventions of steampunk. Of course, I also think you're ridiculing me because you think I'm coming after your master or whatever. Did I hurt your feelings?
ALRUFF 06-08-07, 04:46 PM	Yikes. That debate took exactly eleven minutes. Sure, if it was over.
Rechan 06-08-07, 04:54 PM	Oh yeah, this is going to be a real mature debate. Here, I'll save time. "You're wrong. Exaggerated hyperbolic examplep that detracts from the conversation. Personal attack." "Personal attack, non sequitor. No, You're wrong." "Patronizing condescention. I can't be wrong. I am right and that's that." "Nuh uh. Derailment of topic." "Uh huh. Further derailment of topic." "No. Here's how I'm right in the derailment and how I'm right in the general topic." "You're wrong on all counts and ad hominem. Also, your mother." "This is stupid. We're not getting anywhere. But I'm still right." "Agreed. Except when you're wrong." End of thread.
stone_dog 06-08-07, 04:55 PM	That guy was a jerk, but he isn't wrong. In order to have an imperialism theme there has to BE an empire. You know, like the United Kingdom under Queen Victoria, the era that is the primary focus of the genre of steampunk. Exploration isn't a primary focus of steampunk. The victorian society and the emphisis on steam power and other victorian understandings of science is. Eberron has very little in common with steampunk because steampunk IS primarily defined by the technology, alternate history and society.
tallric_kruush 06-08-07, 05:11 PM	Sure, if it was over. As you wish.;) The "yikes" was for 4ngel's tone. It was unnecessarily harsh. If you want this thread to last long enough for Keith to drop in and explain his position, there has to be an immediate cooldown. Otherwise, it will just end up on lockdown.
Shady314 06-08-07, 05:13 PM	Allow me to retort: You're a jerk. You're condescending, and you're wrong. I wanted to be nice on this thread, and you had to come with that weak sauce. You'd never talk like that in real life, but you're more than happy to make fun of me with a computer betwixt the two of us. OneWing was harsh but he is absolutely right. He also wasn't condescending since he didn't talk down to you or brush you off. He took you seriously and answered in-depth and seriously though you appear to be trolling. There is a certain ethereal flair that defines steampunk that travels well beyond the mere "steaminess" of it. :rolleyes: Uh no to have steampunk you need a steam engine. Something Eberron lacks. Using your Wild West example could you really have a wild west theme without guns, horses and the frontier of some sort? If we want to have an actual discussion or argument we're going to have to accept the actual definitions of things not your made up ones or "ethereal" qualities. Basically, what you're saying is that, by substituting the energy source for magic, it's no longer steampunk. Well, I'd say that a single substitution hardly qualifies as a new genre. If I write a cowboy-fiction wherein they use magic instead of powder, does it lose its Wild West descriptor? Not really. They just use "magic" guns. You'd have a point if the subsitution was simple and singular as you assert but it isn't. Otherwise we'd have magic engines in place of steam ones but we don't. And what do you mean "not imperialistic?" What country in Khorvaire doesn't have plans to conquer all of the others? Breland, Thrane, Karnath, Lhazaar Principalities, and possibly Droaam. We don't really know what the Sisters want. Who ISN'T hatching colonies anywhere they can get their claws into, including the Sarlonans? You called me ignorant, but you obviously didn't understand that section of the material. What colonies are you talking about ???? No country has any colonies at ALL. :rofl: Sarlona has an outpost on Xendrik. That's it. What colonies are you referrencing that are hatching everywhere? A lot of people lump the FF games (particularly 3) into Steampunk, and I wouldn't disagree. In fact, I'd throw them a pat on the back and a hearty "right-ho" for expanding the definition of the genre. I've never heard of this. Please show me these imaginary people. I've heard FF3 described as magicpunk. If you want to argue Eberron is magicpunk we can talk. Fine. Whatever. Dieselpunk. Pulp. Magicpunk. Whatever you want to call it, it still has the conventions of steampunk. Of course, I also think you're ridiculing me because you think I'm coming after your master or whatever. Did I hurt your feelings? It does not have the conventions of steampunk. Steampunk requires some measure of technology specifically victorian ideas of technology. Eberron is actually severely lacking in the technology department. You want to go ahead and change the definition of steampunk you go right ahead but don't be surprised when no one knows what the hell you're talking about. Pulp action and exploration = steampunk? Never heard that before. If we use your ridiculous explanation FR is steampunk. It has constructs, Thay has airships and actual clockwork (Which Eberron does not), magical messaging, you can run a pulp exploration campiagn in it. And I think the dwarves even have a freaking steam engine. Pulp does not equal steampunk. Magicpunk doesn't either else they wouldn't call it magicpunk it would just be called steampunk. What it all boils down to... If you tried to get some people together to play a steampunk game and then said "Ok we're all going to play Eberron!" people would be ****** off at you.
eehamburg 06-08-07, 05:18 PM	If I write a cowboy-fiction wherein they use magic instead of powder, does it lose its Wild West descriptor? Not really. They just use "magic" guns. By this logic then, Star Wars is a Wild West story because it has comboy-fiction elements to it. Is this what you are saying?
stone_dog 06-08-07, 05:23 PM	By this logic then, Star Wars is a Wild West story because it has comboy-fiction elements to it. Is this what you are saying? Or Samurai drama, being lifted off Hidden Fortress and all that. Star Wars is also steampunk because of imperialism and exploration and having automatons!
Rechan 06-08-07, 05:24 PM	Allow me to address the topic by using a different example. Is Firefly a Western or Space Science Fiction? Let's break down the elements. Sci fi: Firefly has space ships, robots (the guys with the blue hands were robots/cyborgs, ergo why they wern't effected by the little sonic "make your brain leak out your nose" thing), psionics, evil mutant psycho guys, space stations, battles/action in space itself (in space suits, no less). Western: Cowboy speech patterns (at least with Mal), desert-like land areas, horseback riding, ballistic guns in holsters, duels, the "Leave me alone and let me do my thing" attitude, bandits/highway robbers, lawlessness, and at least in one episode it had cowboy hats. So, one could make the argument that it's: 1) Sci Fi 2) Western 3) Both 4) Neither (one cancels out the other). I think any one of the above are valid stances. Ultimately it's up to the individual's interpretation.
stone_dog 06-08-07, 05:30 PM	(the guys with the blue hands were robots/cyborgs, ergo why they wern't effected by the little sonic "make your brain leak out your nose" thing), Ummm... what? Seriously, you want to link to a proof of that somewhere? They've never been refered to as anything other than advanced psychics in anything I've seen. More on topic though, Science Fiction has a long history of being deried as "westerns in space" so that comparison might not be exactly fair.
Nimloh 06-08-07, 05:31 PM	Steampunk is based on technology, which is just "applied science." Eberron devices use magic not science. Whenever someone casts spells in the fantasy genre, we don't say they are using "science" to create a fireball or whatever. We say they are using "magic," and understand there are differences between the two. Ultimately, this comes down to definition. If you like to associate Eberron with steampunk by including magic, then that's your right. But you are challenging Baker, and he clearly uses the more common understanding of steampunk, which is his right.
Shady314 06-08-07, 05:32 PM	I don't get the point Rechan. Firefly is obviously a direct fusion of two genres and 3 is the only correct answer. It's a sci-fi western. (:D Cancel each other out. :rofl: ) Just calling it one or the other would be doing whoever you're explaining it to a disservice. If you told them just that it was a Western you'd be leaving out important info just like if you only told them it was a space opera. This argument on Eberron's genre isn't the same thing. There are rules to genres and Eberron clearly does not fall under steampunk's commonly accepted definition. Firefly clearly does fall under two separate genres and so you'd use both to describe it. As for the Hands of Blue guys the Serenity comic book showed the blue gloves were actually some sort of blue full body armor that extended under their clothes but it never hinted that they were cyborgs or anything so i'm not sure where you got that. I too would like to know. I thought they just put in earplugs when they used the sonic rod.
Rechan 06-08-07, 05:36 PM	Ummm... what? Seriously, you want to link to a proof of that somewhere? They've never been refered to as anything other than advanced psychics in anything I've seen. I was told that there was a comic book surrounding Firefly and that the identity of the Hands of Blue guys were revealed; they were revealed as robots or something.
stone_dog 06-08-07, 05:38 PM	I was told that there was a comic book surrounding Firefly and that the identity of the Hands of Blue guys were revealed; they were revealed as robots or something. I'll hunt that down, thanks. To my research they were still just experimental humans even after "Those Left Behind," but I've wanted to buy it anyway. :)
Shady314 06-08-07, 05:42 PM	Look at my post above Rechan's. The comic never reveals their identity or shows them to be robots. It only says they were "private contractors" hired to catch River. This would rule out the idea they work for the Alliance specifically as a failed experiment previous to River or anything like that. Firefly setting also seems to lack the technology level to have full fledged cyborgs or sentient robots. The only mystery that it solves is why they have blue hands. It's this full body armor they wear that is blue. As for the sonic rod watch Asriel again. They put in earplugs.
stone_dog 06-08-07, 05:48 PM	As for the Hands of Blue guys the Serenity comic book showed the blue gloves were actually some sort of blue full body armor that extended under their clothes but it never hinted that they were cyborgs or anything so i'm not sure where you got that. I too would like to know. I thought they just put in earplugs when they used the sonic rod. That is signifigantly more awesome than dropping androids into Firefly. I just always thought the rods where psionic amplifiers that gave you a full body aneurism or had a template like color spray or something like that. I knew they worked for Blue Sun at least instead of the Alliance though. We're getting off topic and now I just want to buy the comic more than before. Thanks for making me hungry again! ;)
Rechan 06-08-07, 05:55 PM	I don't get the point Rechan. Firefly is obviously a direct fusion of two genres and 3 is the only correct answer. It's a sci-fi western. (:D Cancel each other out. :rofl: ) Just calling it one or the other would be doing whoever you're explaining it to a disservice. If you told them just that it was a Western you'd be leaving out important info just like if you only told them it was a space opera. I don't think calling it a space opera leaves anything out. The western trappings don't take away from "Space Opera". I mean, the Jedi in Star Wars are pretty much magic ninja/samuri, but not pointing that out doesn't distract from calling Star Wars a space opera. This argument on Eberron's genre isn't the same thing. There are rules to genres and Eberron clearly does not fall under steampunk's commonly accepted definition. Firefly clearly does fall under two separate genres and so you'd use both to describe it. Not true. Eberron is certainly Fantasy, but it has a lot of modern qualities to it. Magic is viewed as technology, rather than a rare, mysterious force; it's just a tool to be used. Magic is, in other words, "cheap". It's not mystical and rare. Artificers/Wizards are scientists, not wizened sages sitting in towers alone contemplating the ages. The same could be said for any sort of mindset that looks at technology. That same mindset is also viewed in Steampunk. True the mechanisms are not Steam, they are not terran technology, but they are viewed as technology. The elements and trappings are what are important, not the literal qualities (after all, if we wanted to be literal, nothing could be a "Western" unless it was set in "The West" becase all westerns are in the west). Heck, Steampunk has a lot of "mad scientists creating crazy machines that wreack havoc", and that sums up several villains in Eberron. I argue that Pulp is also a quality of Steampunk because what are the heros in steampunk doing? They're swashbuckling. They're battling on airships and doing adventurous things, but using steampunk tech devices to do so, ala Artimas Gordon. As well, the Aurum are far less Pulp or Noir than they are something more Victorian, or at least something you see more in Steampunk/victorion notions of nobility or Very Rich Merchants playing games with the lives of lesser men. Also, I do think that while "Exploration" is not necessarily "Steampunk", there are certain storytelling elements of the Victorian era that do fit. For instance, stuffy British hunters going into the jungles for hunts of big game and going on safari (Tarzan, The Jungle Book, Alan Quartermane), and the 1920s archeological digs in Egypt (ala any sort of movie centered around a mummy). These have a very stiff-necked stuffy old-timey feel to them, that can be accomplished in Xen'Drik/Q'barra. In all honesty? I think that Eberron is a mishmash of a lot of Genres. It has Pulp, Noir, Fantasy, Cyberpunk (soulless corporations playing politics like the Dragonmarked Houses and the Aurum, cyborgs (construct grafts, Renegade Mastermaker)), Horror, Post-Apocalyptic (Mournlands, Demon Wastes), Survival (Mourlands, Xen'Drik), and so on. Eberron is a collision of ideas that can co-exist. Just labeling it "as Steampunk" is inaccurate. It has "steampunk" elements yes, but as you say, just calling it one thing leaves out a lot of information, just like calling Firefly a Western. As for the Hands of Blue guys the Serenity comic book showed the blue gloves were actually some sort of blue full body armor that extended under their clothes but it never hinted that they were cyborgs or anything so i'm not sure where you got that. I too would like to know. I thought they just put in earplugs when they used the sonic rod. Ah, my mistake. I got the information second hand.
Hanuman47 06-08-07, 06:00 PM	Whoa dudes! Let's play nice! I think the problem you're running into here, Alruff, is that many longtime Eberron supporters have a knee-jerk reaction to characterizing Eberron as "steampunk" because the term has often been used disparagingly. Guys - Alfruff seems to like the setting too, no need to get defensive! Anyway, I guess it really comes down to how narrowly you wish to define the genre. Perhaps it would have been more accurate if Alruff had said something along the lines of "You know, Eberron does have many things in common with the steampunk genre, including x, y, and z." The examples he gave are good ones. Equally valid is the counter argument that what we commonly think of as steampunk is usually tied to some very specific elements (geography, history, technology). But still, can steampunk be a good source of inspiration for Eberron? Couldn't you make a really interesting campaign that emphasizes the common elements? I sure think so! Maybe the analogy was stretched a bit, but the rancor (on both sides - no need to stoop to the trolls, Alruff) seems a bit much. RE Firefly: Interesting - I'll have to check out that comic sometime.
stone_dog 06-08-07, 06:11 PM	Oh yes, Hanuman it is certainly possible, easy and fun to run steampunkish adventures in Eberron, but calling it a primarily steampunk setting is innacurrate and potentially misleading.
Shady314 06-08-07, 06:13 PM	I don't think calling it a space opera leaves anything out. The western trappings don't take away from "Space Opera". I mean, the Jedi in Star Wars are pretty much magic ninja/samuri, but not pointing that out doesn't distract from calling Star Wars a space opera. If I just told someone Serenity was a space opera I'd be leaving out critical info. Otherwise they're thinking of Star Trek or something. Not true. Eberron is certainly Fantasy, but it has a lot of modern qualities to it. Magic is viewed as technology, rather than a rare, mysterious force; it's just a tool to be used. Magic is, in other words, "cheap". It's not mystical and rare. Artificers/Wizards are scientists, not wizened sages sitting in towers alone contemplating the ages. The same could be said for any sort of mindset that looks at technology. That same mindset is also viewed in Steampunk. Magic is used AS technology in Eberron. It isn't treated exactly like technolgy though. It is NOT mundane. Magic is still rare and wondrous and especially expensive. Otherwise anyone could learn to be a magewright or wizard etcc which they can't. Commoners are still suitably impressed by people flying around(under their own power via spell or SLA etc.) even in Sharn. And what "modern" qualities? I would certainly never describe it as a modern setting. True the mechanisms are not Steam, they are not terran technology, but they are viewed as technology. The elements and trappings are what are important, not the literal qualities (after all, if we wanted to be literal, nothing could be a "Western" unless it was set in "The West" becase all westerns are in the west). The literal qualities are still important. And yes you do need a frontier to have a Western. Doesn't have to be the American west of the 19th century. Heck, Steampunk has a lot of "mad scientists creating crazy machines that wreack havoc", and that sums up several villains in Eberron. And in some Steampunk settings this could even be done via magic and eldritch machines. That doesn't make those settings not Steampunk. So what's the point? Settings are not defined by what you could do in them. I could run a high magic, epic NPCs everywhere campaign and set it in Eberron. That doesn't make Eberron the equal of FR by default though. I argue that Pulp is also a quality of Steampunk because what are the heros in steampunk doing? They're swashbuckling. They're battling on airships and doing adventurous things, but using steampunk tech devices to do so, ala Artimas Gordon. They're doing whatever the DM wants. :rolleyes: Again what I CAN have characters do has nothing to do with the settings genre. There is nothing INHERENTLY pulp/swashbuckling to steampunk. As well, the Aurum are far less Pulp or Noir than they are something more Victorian, or at least something you see more in Steampunk/victorion notions of nobility or Very Rich Merchants playing games with the lives of lesser men. This argument I'm really not getting. There's nothing specifically "Victorian" about the Aurum. Rich men gathering power and influence has existed since there was currency. It has nothing to do with Steampunk. Even if they were "Victorian" one organization does not a whole genre make. Also, I do think that while "Exploration" is not necessarily "Steampunk", there are certain storytelling elements of the Victorian era that do fit. For instance, stuffy British hunters going into the jungles for hunts of big game and going on safari, and the 1920s archeological digs in Egypt (ala any sort of movie centered around a mummy). These have a very stiff-necked stuffy old-timey feel to them, that can be accomplished in Xen'Drik/Q'barra. Themes do not equal genres. You can go on a big game hunt in FR. That doesn't make it steampunk! In all honesty? I think that Eberron is a mishmash of a lot of Genres. It has Pulp, Noir, Fantasy, Cyberpunk (soulless corporations playing politics like the Dragonmarked Houses and the Aurum, cyborgs (construct grafts, Renegade Mastermaker)), Horror, Post-Apocalyptic (Mournlands, Demon Wastes), Survival (Mourlands, Xen'Drik), and so on. Eberron is a collision of ideas that can co-exist. Just labeling it "as Steampunk" is inaccurate. It has "steampunk" elements yes, but as you say, just calling it one thing leaves out a lot of information, just like calling Firefly a Western. You're mistaking influences as something that can sway an entire setting to a genre. Eberron can be appropriately labelled Fantasy (which is a huge umbrella of genres) or more specifically magicpunk. Sure there's more you can say. Any well developed setting has layers and depth that let it blur lines between genres in certain instances/areas. If you have the time to sit down and tell your friend all about it you can go into detail as you are but if you just need to convey the most information on the setting as quickly as possible the best choice is to say it's magicpunk.
Rechan 06-08-07, 06:22 PM	Also, and while I play Devil's advocate, the only difference between something is the context with which it exists. One man's technology is another man's magic. Primitive cultures thought that the Europeans were gods or evil magicians, because they could summon thunder and fire and strike a man dead by pointing their iron staffs. "What's this?" "It's a teleportation device, it takes me from point A to point B by breaking me down into molecules and sending them into that location before reassembling them." "What's this?" "It's a teleportation circle. I stand it and say the right words/wave my hand over the rune and it sends me from here to there by the transition of mystical forces." If you took the zombies from Resident evil, or from 28 days later, dropped them in the 1300s and called it "A curse" instead of "a virus", it would be a necormancer's doing, not a scientist. If you dropped the Hulk into the 1300s he'd be a troll; Xavier would be a sorcerer; Nightcrawler would be a demon. But drop them in a modern setting and blame genetics, and they're mutants. It's just context and fluff to achieve the same effect. So debating "It's steampunk" "There's no steam, it's magic" I think is not the best crux of the argument.
Shady314 06-08-07, 06:30 PM	So debating "It's steampunk" "There's no steam, it's magic" I think is not the best crux of the argument. Genres make these distinctions though. :) Genre is a metagame distinction. We the players and DMs know this is technology or this is magic. And that makes a difference in the feel of the setting. What some Seren Barbarian thinks in-game doesn't factor into it. :) So the argument, while not perfect (what argument is?) still stands. Was your x-men example referencing this? http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-1602-Neil-Gaiman/dp/0785110739/ref=sr_1_30/105-6542309-5971616?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181342028&sr=8-30
Rechan 06-08-07, 06:36 PM	Magic is used AS technology in Eberron. It isn't treated exactly like technolgy though. It is NOT mundane. Magic is still rare and wondrous and especially expensive. Otherwise anyone could learn to be a magewright or wizard etcc which they can't. Commoners are still suitably impressed by people flying around(under their own power via spell or SLA etc.) even in Sharn. A wizard throwing around powerful spells and a scientist able to create bombs are the same thing; they get the same effect. They're both experts. You explain it a different way. Joe Average can't be a scientist, he can't create nuclear technology without Lots and Lots of training - the same way with a wizard. And while anyone can create a bomb in their back yard, to do it correctly takes time, training, the righ tmaterials, all which could be equated to a wizard training to cast spells - a guy in his garage can't make a huge bomb, the same way a wizard can't cast earth shattering spells early on. Magic is not "Mundane" but to someone who doesn't understand it, technology is not "Mundane" either. I recall playing Werewolf and the Garou considered fire + gunpowder to be technology - primitive technology yes, but they shunned it. Same idea. They're two sides to the same coin - magic is the equivalent, but it serves the same purpose and is seen the same way as tech. Also, if you read Keith's book, and the Sharn book, magic elevators and everbright lanterns are fastened all over Sharn. The skycoaches are an every-day thing. Lightning rails pull in daily in the station. I doubt they're a wondrous thing to someone who was born and raised in Sharn. [qoute]And what "modern" qualities? I would certainly never describe it as a modern setting.[/quote] I didn't say it was a modern "setting". I said it had modern qualities. Mainly, modern ideas, viewpoints, mindsets. Such as Breland's "everyone is an individual and freedom"; that's a fairly "modern" idea, mostly within the last 2-300 years. And in some Steampunk settings this could even be done via magic and eldritch machines. That doesn't make those settings not Steampunk. So what's the point? Settings are not defined by what you could do in them. I could run a high magic, epic NPCs everywhere campaign and set it in Eberron. That doesn't make Eberron the equal of FR by default though. And if you took out the airships, dragonmarked houses, lightning rails, artificers, and made magic "Mysterious", it wouldn't be "low level magic", but you would be taking a lot away from the setting itself. The magic as tech is an integral part of the setting, and the magic as tech is a fairly crucial part of the thing that gives it the steampunk feel. This argument I'm really not getting. There's nothing specifically "Victorian" about the Aurum. Rich men gathering power and influence has existed since there was currency. It has nothing to do with Steampunk. Even if they were "Victorian" one organization does not a whole genre make. Themes do not equal genres. You can go on a big game hunt in FR. That doesn't make it steampunk! That's why I said this: Eberron is a collision of ideas that can co-exist. Just labeling it "as Steampunk" is inaccurate. It has "steampunk" elements yes, but as you say, just calling it one thing leaves out a lot of information, just like calling Firefly a Western. Ergo, I'm not calling Eberron steampunk. So please, stop implying I am.
Rechan 06-08-07, 06:39 PM	Genres make these distinctions though. :) Genre is a metagame distinction. Then it's fantasy, the end. :rolleyes: Why are we arguing what genre it is or what theme it has? Was your x-men example referencing this? http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-1602-Neil-Gaiman/dp/0785110739/ref=sr_1_30/105-6542309-5971616?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181342028&sr=8-30 No, it was an argument made by Spiderman in a book I read recently (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-1602-Neil-Gaiman/dp/0785110739/ref%3Dsr_1_30/105-6542309-5971616%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D 1181342028%26sr%3D8-30). He was proposing that mutants have always existed, but occured so infrequently because mankind had such a small population (1 in 100,000 is far rarer when there aren't that many million people on the planet). And to explain how they showed up in history, he theorized that they were seen as monsters/wizards, hunted down and dispatched, rather than allowed to repopulate. Or they could have been heros of legend (Hercules, Beowolf).
Volaran 06-08-07, 06:42 PM	Excellent points have been made already. I run Eberron, but I play in an Iron Kingdoms campaign, which is certainly the premier Steampunk setting on the d20 marker. I find both campaign worlds fantastic, but I find the difference is this: Iron Kingdoms/Steampunk = Magic and Technology blended in interesting ways, primarily involving the steam engine and clockwork Eberron = Magic developed in place of most technology Certainly both settings are "pulpy", but the approach is fairly different. This is actually one thing that has had me a bit worried about Wolfgang Baur working on Shadows of the Last War. I've seen him refer to what he considers large steampunk elements in Eberron, and his "Clockwork Wonders" column (which seemed quite unpopular here) certainly seemed to carry on with that misconception (though I think simple, non-magical clockwork has its place in Eberron). As much as I enjoy his other work, including what he's done in the Iron Kingdoms, I have no desire for Brelish warjacks fighting, or steam powered creation forges. Still looking forward to the book though.
Shady314 06-08-07, 06:46 PM	A wizard throwing around powerful spells and a scientist able to create bombs are the same thing; they get the same effect. They're both experts. You explain it a different way. Absolutely not. Throwing a fireball from your hands is completely different in feel from lobbing a grenade. For one thing anyone can throw a grenade. Not everyone can lob the fireball. Fluff matters. Joe Average can't be a scientist, he can't create nuclear technology without Lots and Lots of training - the same way with a wizard. And while anyone can create a bomb in their back yard, to do it correctly takes time, training, the righ tmaterials, all which could be equated to a wizard training to cast spells - a guy in his garage can't make a huge bomb, the same way a wizard can't cast earth shattering spells early on. Except some people no matter how hard they try, train and learn can never go past magewright, or expert etc. And you can work your ass off but it won't make you a sorceror. Magic is not an exact equivalent of technology. Magic is not "Mundane" but to someone who doesn't understand it, technology is not "Mundane" either. I recall playing Werewolf and the Garou considered fire + gunpowder to be technology - primitive technology yes, but they shunned it. Same idea. They're two sides to the same coin - magic is the equivalent, but it serves the same purpose and is seen the same way as tech. Fire and gunpowder is technology. Still I don't get the argument. What characters think in-game doesn't affect our metagame knowledge. Also, if you read Keith's book, and the Sharn book, magic elevators and everbright lanterns are fastened all over Sharn. The skycoaches are an every-day thing. Lightning rails pull in daily in the station. I doubt they're a wondrous thing to someone who was born and raised in Sharn. I specifically said someone flying UNDER THEIR OWN POWER would still be very impressive to a resident of Sharn. That was straight from Keith in a thread. I didn't say it was a modern "setting". I said it had modern qualities. Mainly, modern ideas, viewpoints, mindsets. Such as Breland's "everyone is an individual and freedom"; that's a fairly "modern" idea, mostly within the last 2-300 years. Democracy is not a modern idea. It goes back to the classical age. I don't buy this "modern" elements line. There's nothing inherently "Modern" to most viewpoints or ideas. Even if Eberron does have "modern" qualities no one would label it part of the Modern Fantasy genre so let's abandon this argument. And if you took out the airships, dragonmarked houses, lightning rails, artificers, and made magic "Mysterious", it wouldn't be "low level magic", but you would be taking a lot away from the setting itself. The magic as tech is an integral part of the setting, and the magic as tech is a fairly crucial part of the thing that gives it the steampunk feel. Except magic AS tech is NOT a steampunk feel! Or a quality inherent to a steampunk setting. Usually in steampunk magic and technology are in opposition to each other or exist side by side and in some combine in some way. In Eberron magic supplants tech. That's a different feel and feel matters in genre. That's why I said this: Ergo, I'm not calling Eberron steampunk. So please, stop implying I am. I thought you were playing devil's advocate? :confused: My bad.
Shady314 06-08-07, 06:50 PM	Then it's fantasy, the end. :rolleyes: I already said Eberron falls under the Fantasy umbrella. But Fantasy is such a huge genre calling it just that leaves a lot to be desired information wise. Why are we arguing what genre it is or what theme it has? 1) For fun I thought. Weren't you playing Devil's Advocate? 2) That's the whole point of this topic... No, it was an argument made by Spiderman I just thought I'd link to Marvel 1602 since it's so interesting and it totally meshed with your example. :)
Rechan 06-08-07, 06:52 PM	Absolutely not. Throwing a fireball from your hands is completely different in feel from lobbing a grenade. For one thing anyone can throw a grenade. Not everyone can lob the fireball. Fluff matters. And a fighter can't use a necklace of fireballs or throw alchemical flame? A rogue can't use a wand of fireballs? Except some people no matter how hard they try, train and learn can never go past magewright, or expert etc. And you can work your ass off but it won't make you a sorceror. Magic is not an exact equivalent of technology. Tell that to someone who is just Not A Math Person trying to become a chemist or physicist or engineer. You can try and try and try and it's just an uphill battle and you Won't Get Far. Fire and gunpowder is technology. Still I don't get the argument. What characters think in-game doesn't affect our metagame knowledge. Actually, it was technology by the mechanics of the game, because technology was represented and empowered by a different force that tampered with the forces of nature. So in the setting, the rules says it was tech and it interacted badly with what they were doing. I specifically said someone flying UNDER THEIR OWN POWER would still be very impressive to a resident of Sharn. That was straight from Keith in a thread. And the layman isn't impressed with doctors that can cut open your chest and toy with your insides accurately, pilots that can control giant fighter planes, or other really impressive experts doing their thing? Democracy is not a modern idea. It goes back to the classical age. I don't buy this "modern" elements line. There's nothing inherently "Modern" to most viewpoints or ideas. Even if Eberron does have "modern" qualities no one would label it part of the Modern Fantasy genre so let's abandon this argument. Who had powers in ancient democracies? The ruling classes. Not Joe Average. Slaves certainly wern't free. Every individual was not seen and respected as an individual. Except magic AS tech is NOT a steampunk feel! Or a quality inherent to a steampunk setting. But them being the same thing is the same thing. It doesn't matter how it "feels". Your emotions don't matter to a genre. I thought you were playing devil's advocate? :confused: My bad. Even if I was, you're assuming that I'm saying that it's Steampunk. I'm saying that it has steampunk elements and a qualities.
stone_dog 06-08-07, 06:54 PM	So debating "It's steampunk" "There's no steam, it's magic" I think is not the best crux of the argument. The problem with saying this is that steam is important not just as a technology, but as an aesthetic. If the magic doesn't actually produce steam then it at least should have lots of brass and dials with victorian stylings and sensibilities. Victorian aesthetics, values, technologies and reasonings are the most important parts of steampunk and if you are going to replace one you really should emphasize the others. As a more productive line of thought, if you wanted to focus on an area most appropriate to a steampunk game then Breland is really where it is at. It has the most potential to be a fantasy analogue of Victorian England and Sharn is pretty much London/New York dialed up to 11 or 12. The industry, goblin underclass, state of nobility and general style needs only moderate effort to convert.
Rechan 06-08-07, 06:58 PM	I already said Eberron falls under the Fantasy umbrella. But Fantasy is such a huge genre calling it just that leaves a lot to be desired information wise. It's very hard to get all the information as to what Eberron is in "an elevator pitch", as it were. ;) I mean, Eberron has a lot of genres and elements and qualities and so much that just "Getting all the information out there" is hard. It's too much a collague of ideas to just pin it down as "this this and this" because it also has "That that and that" too. You could run any kind of game in FR that you wanted, for instance, but FR was not made to run any kind of game in it. FR has a very specific, almost set-in-stone quality to it. Eberron, however, was made to suit so many tastes, to facilitate so many different kinds of play. And because of that, I think that it makes it hard to define what it is. 1) For fun I thought. Weren't you playing Devil's Advocate? I guess I used the phrase wrong. Or wasn't sure at the time. As I continue to debate things, I kind've shift my opinion and get fairly enthusiastic about them. :) But my main goal was to "muddy the water" so that we could avoid a real shouting match. I wanted to back up the the OP to avoid getting into a real flamewar. The post about "only context matters", I was just trying to expand on the theory and the nature of it. I've sat in on a lot of "Writing Sci-Fi and Fantasy" panels at various cons and the same thing is brought up. That essentially Fantasy and Sci-Fi have gotten so entertwined that the only thing that tells them apart is context, really. They tell the same stories, just different things are emphasized and explained different ways.
Shady314 06-08-07, 07:06 PM	And a fighter can't use a necklace of fireballs or throw alchemical flame? A rogue can't use a wand of fireballs? :rolleyes: Stop changing your argument around. First of all you specifically said "Wizard throwing around spells (ie fireballs)" which no a rogue or fighter can't do. The NECKLACE does it. And who can MAKE that necklace of fireballs? Oh yeah ONLY an arcane caster(or artificer and both need a feat!). And who can make a bomb? Acorrding to you anyone. :) So you've reinforced my point bringing up item creation. Thanks! :P Tell that to someone who is just Not A Math Person trying to become a chemist or physicist or engineer. You can try and try and try and it's just an uphill battle and you Won't Get Far. I am "Not a Math Person." Sometimes to the point it's embarrassing. I'll never work for the NSA cracking codes but I still passed math. I can do algebra. I have to study harder, longer etc. but it can be done assuming you don't possess a mental handicap. The same is not true if you're just not a magic person. Actually, it was technology by the mechanics of the game, because technology was represented and empowered by a different force that tampered with the forces of nature. So in the setting, the rules says it was tech and it interacted badly with what they were doing. What game? EDIT: Oh nvm. I see. Werewolf. I've played Forsaken but have no experience with it's previous incarnation. Anyways it just reinforces my point. The rules laid out that it was technology because it was metagame and it mattered. Because there was "magic" of a sort in old WoD. Even if you didn't cross Werewolf with Ascenscion. There was a difference between it and the "magical"/fantastical things werewolves can do. And the layman isn't impressed with doctors that can cut open your chest and toy with your insides accurately, pilots that can control giant fighter planes, or other really impressive experts doing their thing? ? What ? I'm constantly impressed by the state of medicinal technology. Even more impressive is a guy that could heal my wounds with a touch because he has a funny birthmark. I don't get your point here. Lots of things are impressive. Who had powers in ancient democracies? The ruling classes. Not Joe Average. Slaves certainly wern't free. Every individual was not seen and respected as an individual. It's only a few decades ago that everyone in the US could vote. But the ideas of democracy and individualism are ancient ones. There are viewpoints we hold currently in our world. That doesn't make them inherently "modern." What if we experience another Middle Ages and slavery starts up again and this viewpoint becomes an ancient one? And there is slavery in other parts of the world... so it's not even modern really. Just Western. But them being the same thing is the same thing. It doesn't matter how it "feels". Your emotions don't matter to a genre. When I say "feel" it doesn't mean emotion I mean the way the world interacts and operates. Magic does not operate or interact in setting or with a player the same as technology. They are NOT equal. They are similar true. They can often share the same results via different methods but that doesn't make them equal. Even if I was, you're assuming that I'm saying that it's Steampunk. I'm saying that it has steampunk elements and a qualities. I apologize for the mistaken assumption. it's just that based on the topic and the points you were bringing up I had thought you were playing's devil's advocate for Allruff. No one disagrees Eberron shares a few superficial similarities to Steampunk. Because Magicpunk is after all a sub-genre of Steampunk. I just disagree pulp or exploration have any inherent connection whatsoever to Steampunk or that a few superficial similarities mean it would be proper and accurate to describe Eberron as steampunk to someone.
Rechan 06-08-07, 07:07 PM	The problem with saying this is that steam is important not just as a technology, but as an aesthetic. If the magic doesn't actually produce steam then it at least should have lots of brass and dials with victorian stylings and sensibilities. Victorian aesthetics, values, technologies and reasonings are the most important parts of steampunk and if you are going to replace one you really should emphasize the others. Good point. However, consider the Eberron aesthetics. Lots of foreign metals, and almost all magical items are studded with dragonshards. So you could have dragonshard studs instead of brass knobs, sigils that glow at certain intensity rather than gauges. Also you have to consider the nature of magic. How does magic work? Does something just go like "This" and then something happens, or is magic more a force; does magic need to be "grounded out" for instance, "dispersed", or when it goes away does it just "go away"? This isn't spelled out in the ECS, but using your imagination it's not hard. But I also played a lot of Exalted, which really goes indepth into how "Magic" works and functions (because the whole world is constructed of magic), so maybe I'm showing my bias here. :) As a more productive line of thought, if you wanted to focus on an area most appropriate to a steampunk game then Breland is really where it is at. It has the most potential to be a fantasy analogue of Victorian England and Sharn is pretty much London/New York dialed up to 11 or 12. The industry, goblin underclass, state of nobility and general style needs only moderate effort to convert. Two thoughts. 1) Zilargo could also function. While Zilargo may have less Magitech as Breland/Sharn, the elemental binding tech, and just the feel of the place, could suit it. 2) Pre-Mourning Cyre could have likely stood as a Steampunk place. Mentrolw as the hub of Cannith after all, and Cyre was the place of artisans and culture. Though if you wanted to really stretch the RL analogy, that would have been more like Paris and France culturally rather than London, which is a diff feel.
stone_dog 06-08-07, 07:10 PM	I have no idea why this went all double posty.
Rechan 06-08-07, 07:18 PM	:rolleyes: Stop changing your argument around. First of all you specifically said "Wizard throwing fireballs" which no a rogue or fighter can't do. The NECKLACE does it. And who can MAKE that necklace of fireballs? Oh yeah ONLY an arcane caster. And who can make a bomb? Acorrding to you anyone. :) So you've reinforced my point bringing up item creation. Thanks! :P Wizards make necklaces of fireballs, technicians/scientists make grenades. Thanks for reinforcing my point. ;) [quote]I am "Not a Math Person." Sometimes to the point it's embarrassing. I'll never work for the NSA cracking codes but I still passed math. I can do algebra. I have to study harder, longer etc. but it can be done assuming you don't possess a mental handicap. The same is not true if you're just not a magic person. And at the same time, you could be an alchemist. It requires no innate talent. Though if I really wanted to be a rules lawyer, there's nothing to prevent any NPC from taking a PC class. Or NPC class for that matter. But we're arguing the fluff, not the crunch. :) What game? Werewolf, the Apoclaypse. All technology is ruled by the Weaver, were as all forces of Nature were created and are conduits of Gaia, basically. And Garou (werewolves) are Gaian, protectors of nature, who shun technology almost as a whole (there's one group who uses technology, but they're very unliked). Technology doesn't Do Bad Things to the werewolves, but it falls in the domain of a force that is corrupted by the WW's enemy and is a representation of the evils of mankind. What ? I'm constantly impressed by the state of medicinal technology. Even more impressive is a guy that could heal my wounds with a touch because he has a funny birthmark. I don't get your point here. Lots of things are impressive. Your point was that the laymen were impressive with magic, and my point is that laymen are impressed with experts today. Same thing. Different mechanisms. There are viewpoints we hold currently in our world. That doesn't make them inherently "modern." What if we experience another Middle Ages and slavery starts up again and this viewpoint becomes an ancient one? That depends. Is "modern" basically "the current point in time", or "developed and such"? Or would that be "Postmodern"? That's not me playing with semantics - I'm not actually sure, there. When I say "feel" it doesn't mean emotion I mean the way the world interacts and operates. I know, I was being snarky. Magic does not operate or interact in setting or with a player the same as technology. They are NOT equal. They are similar true. They can often share the same results via different methods but that doesn't make them equal. Magic doesn't function the same way, but it serves the same role and is viewed the same way. No one disagrees Eberron shares a few superficial similarities to Steampunk. Because Magicpunk is after all a sub-genre of Steampunk. I just disagree pulp or exploration have any inherent connection whatsoever to Steampunk or that a few superficial similarities mean it would be proper and accurate to describe Eberron as steampunk to someone. Aaaah. Okay. :) I'll tell you what. I'll agree that Eberron is Magicpunk, which is a genre of Steampunk.
ArcTan 06-08-07, 07:18 PM	Just recently, it was brought to my attention that Baker said that his seminal setting ISN'T steampunk. That's weird. I could've sworn it had telegraphs, airships, trains and automata, as well as ripping good pulp adventure set in a primarily urban environment of exploration and imperialism. Now I want to stir up a bit of gentlemanly debate by asking why he would say it isn't steampunk. Ladies are, of course, also invited to join the fray. Now I don't believe Baker's assertion for one second, and perhaps someone can help me understand his meaning. Maybe the man, himself, will check up on this thread. If so, I would like to extend my cordial invitation for him to defend his ideas for design. There's no steam, and the "punk" is arguable.
stone_dog 06-08-07, 07:22 PM	Zilargo is awesome for this, yes! I would have thought of it earlier, but I'm desperately trying to find somebody to go to Disneyland for free with before I leave work.
Shady314 06-08-07, 07:23 PM	Wizards make necklaces of fireballs, technicians/scientists make grenades. Thanks for reinforcing my point. ;) Nice try but we already established from your own words ANYONE with the time and materials can make a bomb. In DnD you have to have the feat AND be an arcane caster or artificer. The accessibility is a big difference. And at the same time, you could be an alchemist. It requires no innate talent. Um to use alchemy you need a level of an arcane caster class. Though if I really wanted to be a rules lawyer, there's nothing to prevent any NPC from taking a PC class. Or NPC class for that matter. But we're arguing the fluff, not the crunch. :) That's metagame. From a metagame perspective the DM could populate the whole world with only PC classes. This point is not relevant. Your point was that the laymen were impressive with magic, and my point is that laymen are impressed with experts today. Same thing. Different mechanisms. Same thing+Different mechanisms = Not the SAME thing. :P Do we need to break out the dictionary and look up SAME?? :) That depends. Is "modern" basically "the current point in time", or "developed and such"? Or would that be "Postmodern"? That's not me playing with semantics - I'm not actually sure, there. Probably a whole nother argument. :D Magic doesn't function the same way, but it serves the same role and is viewed the same way. Again magic is not viewed the same way. It's viewed similarly. But it is not the same as in perfectly equal to. Aaaah. Okay. :) I'll tell you what. I'll agree that Eberron is Magicpunk, which is a genre of Steampunk. Sub-genre.
ArcTan 06-08-07, 07:24 PM	Allow me to retort: You're a jerk. You're condescending, and you're wrong. I wanted to be nice on this thread, and you had to come with that weak sauce. You'd never talk like that in real life, but you're more than happy to make fun of me with a computer betwixt the two of us. There is a certain ethereal flair that defines steampunk that travels well beyond the mere "steaminess" of it. Basically, what you're saying is that, by substituting the energy source for magic, it's no longer steampunk. Well, I'd say that a single substitution hardly qualifies as a new genre. If I write a cowboy-fiction wherein they use magic instead of powder, does it lose its Wild West descriptor? Not really. They just use "magic" guns. And what do you mean "not imperialistic?" What country in Khorvaire doesn't have plans to conquer all of the others? Who ISN'T hatching colonies anywhere they can get their claws into, including the Sarlonans? You called me ignorant, but you obviously didn't understand that section of the material. A lot of people lump the FF games (particularly 3) into Steampunk, and I wouldn't disagree. In fact, I'd throw them a pat on the back and a hearty "right-ho" for expanding the definition of the genre. Fine. Whatever. Dieselpunk. Pulp. Magicpunk. Whatever you want to call it, it still has the conventions of steampunk. Of course, I also think you're ridiculing me because you think I'm coming after your master or whatever. Did I hurt your feelings? It's annoying when things get defined by their "indefinable flair" rather than their actual definitions, because it makes it impossible to talk about them in a meaningful way. FWIW, if *everything* that's meant to feel like 19th-century adventure fiction automatically becomes "steampunk", the term becomes meaningless, and applies to huge swathes of fantasy and science fiction that existed long before anyone even thought up the term "steampunk", including (obviously) 19th century adventure fiction itself. For one thing, going by "indefinable flair", the whole reason for the "-punk" suffix (stolen from "cyberpunk", and one of the trendy suffixes I'm growing horribly sick of) is a certain aggressively deconstructionist bent to the fiction, a determination to show up the fallacies of the genre being pastiched, to show the major warts of the faux-Victorian society and to *parody* the triumphalist assumptions of actual Victorian adventure fiction. Eberron is, by these standards, pretty light on the punk. It's still D&D. Paladins are still good, demons are still evil, there's still plenty of opportunity to have ripping adventures without feeling all this postmodern angst/guilt/alienation/skepticism/cynicism that defines the word "punk". If the *emphasis* of the Eberron setting was on the concept that the Five Nations were inherently corrupt and that life was horrible for most people and that your adventurers were actually amoral psychotic bullies and everything was very close to going to hell in a handbasket and deserved to go there, then you might have a point. (Perdido Street Station, the iconic steampunk novel, oozes this flavor in spades and waves it in your face.) Eberron doesn't, really. It's still D&D, for better or for worse, and intentionally so.
ArcTan 06-08-07, 07:27 PM	Again magic is not viewed the same way. It's viewed similarly. But it is not the same as in perfectly equal to. Sub-genre. I really don't care whether the prefix makes it "magepunk" or "elfpunk" or "castlepunk" or whatever g*dd*mn stupid word you want to use for it. The suffix doesn't fit. It's not *punk*. We're getting to the point where anyone who wants to do any semi-realistic, non-cliched fantasy setting has to put a "punk" in the name of the genre they're supposedly making up, which is idiotic. "Punk" as an attitude or genre is a pretty specific thing with a pretty specific feel to it, and slathering it liberally over anything that isn't a hackneyed Tolkien ripoff does a disservice to the term and to the things people apply it to.
Shady314 06-08-07, 07:30 PM	I really don't care whether the prefix makes it "magepunk" or "elfpunk" or "castlepunk" or whatever g*dd*mn stupid word you want to use for it. The suffix doesn't fit. It's not *punk*. We're getting to the point where anyone who wants to do any semi-realistic, non-cliched fantasy setting has to put a "punk" in the name of the genre they're supposedly making up, which is idiotic. "Punk" as an attitude or genre is a pretty specific thing with a pretty specific feel to it, and slathering it liberally over anything that isn't a hackneyed Tolkien ripoff does a disservice to the term and to the things people apply it to. Hey I didn't come up with the genre's. Go take your anger over language out somewhere else. :rolleyes: Write a letter to the god of RPG vernacular. I did admit settings don't always fit perfectly and neatly into whatever genre or sub-genre best encapsulates them. If you want to come up with a new term to perfectly encompass the Eberron setting and try to get it out into the gaming community's lexicon go for it. So tell me more about this elfpunk and castlepunk. I'm not familiar with it. They sound very interesting. Very punk-ish. Of course so much is punk these days don't you think? I don't think settings could get much punker.
Rechan 06-08-07, 07:43 PM	Same thing+Different mechanisms = Not the SAME thing. :P Do we need to break out the dictionary and look up SAME?? No, they're the same thing, as I have illustrated above. They serve the same purpose. They have the same effect. Again magic is not viewed the same way. It's viewed similarly. But it is not the same as in perfectly equal to. Nothing is perfect. The similarities are enough to do the job. I did admit settings don't always fit perfectly and neatly into whatever genre or sub-genre best encapsulates them. If you want to come up with a new term to perfectly encompass the Eberron setting and try to get it out into the gaming community's lexicon go for it. That would likely end up with Eberron being its own genre in and of itself, and nothing would probably fit exactly into the same genre. Also, it should be noted that the phrase "Dungeonpunk" was coined in reference to the 3.0 PHB given all the artwork with the non-functioning armor, silly buckles, and useless spikes thrown on everything. :D
Shady314 06-08-07, 07:46 PM	No, they're the same thing, as I have illustrated above. They serve the same purpose. They have the same effect. A train and a car serve the same purpose. And have the same effect. But they're not equal. You have not illustrated magic and technology are perfectly equal. Nothing is perfect. The similarities are enough to do the job. Similarities don't make anything the SAME though. Same means SAME. They have to be the SAME in every way or by definition they aren't the same. Same results does not equal both methods BEING the same. Eberronpunk! :P Just to infuriate ArcTan.
LoneStranger 06-08-07, 07:58 PM	Can we reclassify Eberron as high fantasy and call it good? Is it possible to agree on that or at the very least disagree less about that label for it?
DBlizzard 06-08-07, 08:13 PM	I could've sworn it had telegraphs, airships, trains and automata, as well as ripping good pulp adventure set in a primarily urban environment of exploration and imperialism. Now I want to stir up a bit of gentlemanly debate by asking why he would say it isn't steampunk. Ladies are, of course, also invited to join the fray. Hmmm, I've seen those same things in the Avengers (the TV series). Are they steampunk? (BTW, I take issue with the "primarily urban environment. That varies widely by campaign. Many Eberron games are set in Xen'drik, for example, which isn't very urban at all.)So, one could make the argument that it's: 1) Sci Fi 2) Western 3) Both 4) Neither (one cancels out the other). How about science fiction with a strong western influence? I think the fact that something is clearly influenced by something, doesn't mean it's part of the genre (look at all of the genre's that influenced Star Wars). I'd buy that Eberron is influenced by Steampunk (well, I would if Keith hadn't stated it wasn't). However, I don't buy that Eberron is Steampunk.
OneWinged4ngel 06-08-07, 08:18 PM	OneWing was harsh but he is absolutely right. He also wasn't condescending since he didn't talk down to you or brush you off. He took you seriously and answered in-depth and seriously though you appear to be trolling. Basically. In any case, I may have been too harsh, and I apologize if I was a jerk, regardless of how the OP acted or whether or not he deserved it. In my defense, however, I refer the quote in my sig by Salla. Allow me to retort: You're a jerk. You're free to think that. You're condescending Probably. and you're wrong. Highly doubt it. All evidence seems to put me in the right. I wanted to be nice on this thread, and you had to come with that weak sauce. You'd never talk like that in real life I do all the time... in fact, a lot of people like me for that very reason, whether you understand that or not. I have made a habit of being brutally honest... and it's basically a love/hate thing. but you're more than happy to make fun of me with a computer betwixt the two of us. I'd seriously do it in real life too, in a sort of sarcastic monotone... people have compared me to TV's House, and that doesn't bother me at all. *Shrug* There is a certain ethereal flair that defines steampunk that travels well beyond the mere "steaminess" of it. Basically, what you're saying is that, by substituting the energy source for magic, it's no longer steampunk. Actually, if that were the sole differentiator, I would agree with you. You fail to read the rest of my argument, such as the fact that most of the things you identify as steampunk are not actually representative to the genre, but in fact common in LOTS of fantasy. Well, I'd say that a single substitution hardly qualifies as a new genre. And I did more than identify a single substitution. In fact, very little of what I said excused the genre on the basis of magic. I gave a line or two to that. If you weren't so narrow minded, you might take in the full message that I presented. If I write a cowboy-fiction wherein they use magic instead of powder, does it lose its Wild West descriptor? Not really. They just use "magic" guns. Absolutely. For example, I might describe Trigun as a sort of Western. However, you are acting as if "it's magic, not steam" was the entirety of my argument, instead of just a listed factor. It was not a major point in my argument, nor even the core of it. As such, you have failed to actually counter any point here. And what do you mean "not imperialistic?" What country in Khorvaire doesn't have plans to conquer all of the others? Who ISN'T hatching colonies anywhere they can get their claws into, including the Sarlonans? You called me ignorant, but you obviously didn't understand that section of the material. Imperialism is not a driving theme of the setting. As for the Five Nations, they are largely considered with a claim over the throne of a recently broken nation, not looking to colonize strange or untamed foreign lands. A lot of people lump the FF games (particularly 3) into Steampunk, and I wouldn't disagree. In fact, I'd throw them a pat on the back and a hearty "right-ho" for expanding the definition of the genre. Hence I specified "early." The sort that are more classic fantasy, except that they have that buried airship somewhere or something. Final Fantasy 1, for example, was very directly based off of generic D&D's flavor, and would be difficult to label as "Steampunk." Fine. Whatever. Dieselpunk. Pulp. Magicpunk. Whatever you want to call it, it still has the conventions of steampunk. Of course, I also think you're ridiculing me because you think I'm coming after your master or whatever. Did I hurt your feelings? Again, you're ignoring 90% of the argument... and coming back with a childish retort. That doesn't make for a very good comeback. As for my feelings, they're not very easily hurt, so don't flatter yourself. In fact, my opposition wasn't so much because you criticized Eberron (something that I'm fine with, as I've shown in the past)... but rather the --let's say "flawed"-- way in which you were doing it that put me off. Saying things like "Oh no, a magic item that sends messages, or constructs, just like almost every other D&D setting has" to justify it as steampunk is just wrong. It's not a good argument. And seriously... don't delude yourself. I'm not being condescending because you don't like what I like, nor would I consider calling something "Steampunk" bad if it in fact WAS steampunk, nor if you had at least made a good argument for your case. I have nothing against the genre, and indeed enjoy it. I'm being condescending because your argument was, quite simply, ridiculous. That whole "master" and "feelings" comment right there was just... baseless, juvenile, and immature. I feel that that should be fairly clear from the message itself, but I'm sure you'll read whatever you want into it (up to and including ignoring the main points and argument) to feel better about yourself. Yikes. That debate took exactly eleven minutes. Sadly, an ironclad argument doesn't end a debate when people are unwilling to listen to reason. I've learned through experience that the average human tends to make decisions on an issue first, then try to find reasons to support it later (For example, in very basic terms "mother=Good" comes as an initial decision with high priority, since she gives you life and maintains it, and later opinions are reconciled to this. For example, you lie and mother says it's bad, so you get "lying=bad" since "mother=good" but then you answer the phone one night to a telemarketer and mother says to tell them that she's not home, so you get "mother= good and lying=bad but mother = greater priority" so "lying=okay sometimes?" A less PC example would be enculturation of religion and then the arbitrary rejection of other notions of existence as a result of this and ethnocentrism. Thus we get things like people practicing some absurd superstitions with no logical basis, then going on to apply such labels to things just because it is not part of their practice. Or a relevant example being "OneWinged4ngel = jerk" so I don't care what he says, regardless of whether it's right or wrong, unless I already agree with it. :)) as opposed to the more logical person, who uses reasons and logic before accepting a conclusion (such as how good science works, constantly trying to disprove itself and find new explanations...) I could go on and on about the psychology (or anthropology), but it'd be rather off-topic. *Sigh* So yeah. Excuse my random rant. For some reason I just feel a need to try and fight such illogic, even if I know it's probably hopeless to change the mind of many of the people who adhere to it so strongly. At the very least, other people on the board might benefit from it. (BTW, I take issue with the "primarily urban environment. That varies widely by campaign. Many Eberron games are set in Xen'drik, for example, which isn't very urban at all.) Hah, yep, my newly started campaign is set almost entirely in Xen'drik (unless of course the PCs eventually decide to go somewhere else or something completely of their own accord) ___ Also, while everyone is saying Steampunk and "Magicpunk" (I don't really see Eberron as punk or magicpunk, but whatever. This is just for the sake of argument) are the same, why not say Cyberpunk is the same thing? Or any other punk? They're the same thing by different means, right? Right? And a teleport spell isn't any different from a teleporter machine right? And an iron golem is a robot? Half-golems are cybernetics? Grafts are bio-engineering? It's totally the same genre right? FR is totally cyberpunk right. Yeah. Totally. /stupid Geez, by what people are saying here, JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING could be classified as Steampunk. Everything can be pointed out to have similarities to something or other in some way. It doesn't make it the same genre. Eberron lacks many of the thematic elements that would classify it as Steampunk. -_-
gensuke626 06-08-07, 10:21 PM	I did admit settings don't always fit perfectly and neatly into whatever genre or sub-genre best encapsulates them. If you want to come up with a new term to perfectly encompass the Eberron setting and try to get it out into the gaming community's lexicon go for it. Eberronesque? But then that would put a heavy emphasis on Eberron and would likely be similar to me saying that D&D is Tolkeinesque. So, maybe not. Well, We've decided that Eberron is not Punk, but Pulp. It is Magic and not Steam... Magi-Pulp? Mage-Pulp? Pulp-Mage? Fantasti-Pulp? Hmm, but none of those really encompass what eberron can achieve... I like the term that my friends use to describe Eberron. I think they call it Metro-Fantasy, and had the term described as the sorts of Fantasy like Terry Pratchett's Discworld. You don't think about the fact that you use Chamberpots in most cities, that the water is probably not the cleanest in the world, and magic replaces technology when it's convenient or cool. Hmm...how do you like that term? Metro-Fantasy? Anyhow...I also want to drop my 2 cents and say that when I read Eberron, I get the taste of Steampunk...as I said in another thread, I get a Steampunk vibe, but it's not steampunk. For me, the Lightning Rails, the Airships and the urban adventures that can be had all add towards a distinct flavor that one might call "Steampunkesque".
Shady314 06-08-07, 10:28 PM	Eberronesque? But then that would put a heavy emphasis on Eberron and would likely be similar to me saying that D&D is Tolkeinesque. So, maybe not. Well, We've decided that Eberron is not Punk, but Pulp. It is Magic and not Steam... Magi-Pulp? Mage-Pulp? Pulp-Mage? Fantasti-Pulp? Hmm, but none of those really encompass what eberron can achieve... I like the term that my friends use to describe Eberron. I think they call it Metro-Fantasy, and had the term described as the sorts of Fantasy like Terry Pratchett's Discworld. You don't think about the fact that you use Chamberpots in most cities, that the water is probably not the cleanest in the world, and magic replaces technology when it's convenient or cool. Hmm...how do you like that term? Metro-Fantasy? Well it's not if I like it. It's if it will stick. Can we get other people to start calling it by this name? Tricky. We'll need a marketing campaign. Magicpunk works because it's not supposed to be "punk" the way ArcTan was ranting but a reference to the steampunk it's derived from. So it means "like steampunk but magical not technological." I do like "Metro-Fantasy" but not all of Eberron is a metropolis. In fact little of it is. Metro-fantasy is perfect to describe Sharn though. I also liked Pulp Fantasy, Magepulp and Magicpulp. Everyone brainstorm ideas!
DragoonDarkfire 06-08-07, 10:32 PM	Naw man. Eberron is a fictional world with pulp elements. The best way to describe this is- Pulp Fiction.
gensuke626 06-08-07, 10:42 PM	Do you know what they call a Quarter Pounder with Cheese in Fairhaven? They don't call it a Quarter Pounder with Cheese? Nah man, they got the metric system. They don't know what a Quarter Pounder is. Then what do they call it? They call it a Royale with Cheese. A Royale with Cheese. What do they call a Big Mac? Well a Big Mac's a Big Mac. They call it le Big-Mac. Le Big-Mac. Ha ha ha ha. What do they call a Whopper? I dunno, I didn't go into Burger King.
Shady314 06-08-07, 10:54 PM	Naw man. Eberron is a fictional world with pulp elements. The best way to describe this is- Pulp Fiction. :rofl: Yes yes. Eberron can be called that and High Fantasy and probably other things but such definitions are so all encompassing it doesn't tell you much about the setting. If was trying to explain Eberron to someone just saying it's High Fantasy or Pulp Fiction will just make them say "Duh."
Kensan_Oni 06-08-07, 11:40 PM	I think people are getting WAY to hung up on combining terms. If I may refer back to Vampire in it's golden days for a moment. Vampire was defined as a Gothic Punk Role Playing game. Not Gothic-Punk, but two seperate concepts. The Gothic, which is big, bold, dark ages kind of feel, and the Punk definition, which was big corperation dominating everyone, and the youth rebeling against the ways of old. That was it. Two seperate definitions. Steam-punk is defined as a Jules Vernes approach to the Punk genre. Technically, is is stricktly Punk. The time frame is what seperates it from everything else. Once again, Big Corperations surpressing the youth, and the youth rebelling against the extablishments. The only thing that makes it different is that it is assumed that you have Victorian English sensibilities placed ontop of the Punk. Now, you have Ebberon. Ebberon is defined as a Pulp genre. Pulp Genre is big bad people being fought against by the exceptional common man. This is the genre of your Doc Savage, your Indian Jones, your Tarzan. All, which I would like to point out, are very distinctly different from each other. In this case, we are applying the Pulp of the 30's with an overlay of D&D sensibilities. We have, effectivly, High Fuedal Fantasy Pulp. Really, Steampunk has nothing to do with Ebberon. Get over it.
gensuke626 06-08-07, 11:45 PM	I still maintain that steampunk elements are added as a flavor over the "High Feudal Fantasy Pulp" genre. Sentient Constructs, Fantastic Flying Ships, and the Lightning Rails being my main point of focus for that oppinion. I mean, you really shouldn't say that "Steampunk has nothing to do with Ebberon". That feels a bit too exclusive for as rich of a world Eberron is. However, I would say that "Eberron is not a Steampunk Game."
Kensan_Oni 06-08-07, 11:55 PM	Okay... Sentient Constructs: The Illiad Flying Ships: Roger Zelany's Ember Series Lightning Rail: More resemblence to Modern Day Monorails then Locomotive Trains. These are NOT unique concepts to Steampunk. They are spread throught all of Fantasy universes. Stop getting tied into your personal veiw of what it "Has to be" and look at the broader view. Furthermore, look at the play lines. The PLAY is not encouraged as Punk. There is no revolt against the powers that be. You need to learn your genres.
The White Sorcerer 06-08-07, 11:58 PM	I suggest Fantasy Pulp/Noir. Lord of the Rings meets Raiders of the Lost Ark meets The Maltese Falcon.
Rechan 06-09-07, 12:07 AM	I suggest Fantasy Pulp/Noir. Lord of the Rings meets Raiders of the Lost Ark meets The Maltese Falcon. Plus Lovecraft.
Kensan_Oni 06-09-07, 12:10 AM	Plus Lovecraft. Well, yeah.. but I consider Lovecraft more horror/suspense then I actually do pulp, although Lovecraft does qualify.
Nived 06-09-07, 12:42 AM	Though Lovecraft did write and publish in the height of the Pulp era, and his stories were published in Weird Tales which was a (say it with me now) Pulp Magazine. I'm with the "I am Spartacus" chorus of "Its pulp not punk". Eberron is a magical renaissance setting suffused with 1920's and 1930's pulp themes (Modern relatively speaking to be sure but not present day modern.)
Hellcow 06-09-07, 04:29 PM	I don't have time to read all three pages of this thread, so I'm just going to touch on this briefly. Fine. Whatever. Dieselpunk. Pulp. Magicpunk. Whatever you want to call it, it still has the conventions of steampunk. As you define it. If you asked me "Is Eberron magicpunk?", I'd likely say "Yes". If you said "Is it Pulp", I'd say "Without a doubt." In my opinion, you can't ask the question and then dismiss the answer because you don't see a difference between YOUR definition of pulp and steampunk. You want to know why *I* said "Eberron isn't steampunk" - so the question is what I mean when I use the word. In my mind, the critical feature of steampunk is the combination of magic and technology. When I think of Steampunk, I think of Castle Falkenstein, Arcanum, and Iron Kingdoms. Shadowrun is a high-tech version of this same paradigm. Looking to these games, I see one of the fundamental themes being how magic and science coexist and interact in the same world. In games like Arcanum, the intrinsic conflict between magic and technology is one of the driving forces of the game. Eberron doesn't have that - because it doesn't have technology. The basic principle of Eberron was "As arcane magic is essentially science, over the course of a thousand years, wouldn't it be used for the same purposes we use technology for?" Eberron doesn't have telegraphs and railroads - it has speaking stones and the lightning rail. Yes, these fill the same function. But the fact that the Eberron versions are based on magical principles is the key. Eberron is a world in which magic is used for medicine, transportation, communication, entertainment, and warfare. But these all follow the same underlying principles. There's no conflict between the wizard and the warforged; the wizard understands the principles behind the warforged. You don't have gunpowder vs swords; you may have fireballs vs swords, but again, the fantasy principle remains the same. Is Eberron a pulp setting? Absolutely. That's right there in the first few pages of the book. And many steampunk settings have pulp elements. But when I said Eberron wasn't a steampunk setting, it's because it has a complete lack of anything approaching modern technology, especially gunpowder and steam power, and as a result lacks any sense of conflict between magic and science. And for me, that's what separates steampunk from pure pulp. My inspirations for Eberron included things like Raiders of the Lost Ark and the Republic serials of the '40s, which I doubt anyone would argue were steampunk. Xen'drik is the land of pulp adventure and exploration... while Sharn, on the other hand, lends itself to The Maltese Falcon and other noir adventures. Essentially, give Indiana Jones a sword and a crossbow instead of a whip and a pistol, put him on an airship instead of a plane, and he's in Eberron. But because everything around him is magic - because there is none of the blending of magic and technology, but rather magic alone filling the role of technology, *I* don't consider it to be steampunk; I consider it to be fantasy pulp. So if you wanted to know why *I* said that, there's your answer. It may be that you consider "fantasy pulp" to be steampunk, and if so, hey, we're completely on the same page, just using different words. But in my mind, once you remove any actual technology from the environment, it's not steampunk anymore; the exploration of technology and the interaction between magic and technology are what define that genre for me.
Esgay 06-09-07, 07:09 PM	Can we not just all call it "magepulp-noir" and be happy?
gensuke626 06-09-07, 07:31 PM	Umm...Kensan.... I said: I still maintain that steampunk elements are added as a flavor over the "High Feudal Fantasy Pulp" genre. Sentient Constructs, Fantastic Flying Ships, and the Lightning Rails being my main point of focus for that oppinion. I mean, you really shouldn't say that "Steampunk has nothing to do with Ebberon". That feels a bit too exclusive for as rich of a world Eberron is. However, I would say that "Eberron is not a Steampunk Game." You said: Okay... Sentient Constructs: The Illiad Flying Ships: Roger Zelany's Ember Series Lightning Rail: More resemblence to Modern Day Monorails then Locomotive Trains. These are NOT unique concepts to Steampunk. They are spread throught all of Fantasy universes. Stop getting tied into your personal veiw of what it "Has to be" and look at the broader view. Furthermore, look at the play lines. The PLAY is not encouraged as Punk. There is no revolt against the powers that be. You need to learn your genres Now, I think what happened here was a bit of miscommunication. You see, I simply stated that because of the elements I listed, I feel that there is the flavor of steampunk to Eberron. I even went so far as to agree with you as to say that Eberron is not steampunk. I never said that the elements I listed are unique to steampunk, I mean... Sentient Constructs? Star Wars, Wizard of Oz, Frankenstein Airships? Talespin, Crimson Skies, Escaflone Lightning Rail? Anything with a train, including Tron to some extent. But in my oppinion, when they all get mixed together and thrown in with either the punk or pulp attitude, it generates a flavoring that is remnisicent of Steampunk...sort of like how MSG sort of produces the savory flavor of Seaweed. What I was refuting was the statement: Really, Steampunk has nothing to do with Ebberon. Get over it. I'm not saying that Eberron is steampunk, but I feel that making such a broad and absolute statement is a bit...much. It's like declareing that pickles have nothing to do with a cheeseburger. They're not always there, they don't define the burger, some people like them to be there and others scrape them out if they find them. But they are there to add flavor. I'm not saying that Mr. Baker put steampunk elements in deliberately, but if this thread shows nothing else, it shows that a few people have found things that feel like steampunk. Mr. Baker even said he most likely considers Eberron to be Magicpunk. So, since Magicpunk and Steampunk are both technically variations on the Cyberpunk Genre, perhaps we can even say "Eberron is related to steampunk! It's steampunk's bigger, more bad-ass cousin!"
gensuke626 06-09-07, 07:35 PM	Can we not just all call it "magepulp-noir" and be happy? You know...I can't think of anything that sounds better...I really really like that title. Just have to figure out if I should say it as "Magepulpnoir" or "Magepulp, noir". The comma between pulp and noir makes it sound just a tad cooler I think. Yeah...Yeah! You hit them with the "Magepulp" to get them shocked and interested, then you smile and very cooly say "noir" to get them hooked. We gots us a winner methinks! :D :D
Hellcow 06-09-07, 07:39 PM	I'm not saying that Mr. Baker put steampunk elements in deliberately, but if this thread shows nothing else, it shows that a few people have found things that feel like steampunk. Which doesn't surprise me at all. When I said that Eberron wasn't a steampunk setting, I never said or intended to say that it had nothing in common with steampunk. Sure, there's lots of similarities between the two. Someone who just looks at a few pictures of Eberron and a few pictures of Iron Kingdoms without getting deeper into the setting probably can't tell the difference. However, at the core, I don't consider Eberron to BE a steampunk setting for the reasons I described above. It lacks things that I consider vital to a steampunk setting: the exploration of the barrier between magic and technology; the imaginative use of steam-era technology; often, specifically Victorian flavor; and, among other things, guns. Steampunk is certainly, in my mind, a subgenre of pulp. Eberron is definitely pulp. There's lots of areas of overlap. It's just that at the end of the day it lacks key features that I require to think of something as "Steampunk", and this was intentional in the original design.
gensuke626 06-09-07, 07:42 PM	Which doesn't surprise me at all. When I said that Eberron wasn't a steampunk setting, I never said or intended to say that it had nothing in common with steampunk. Sure, there's lots of similarities between the two. Someone who just looks at a few pictures of Eberron and a few pictures of Iron Kingdoms without getting deeper into the setting probably can't tell the difference. However, at the core, I don't consider Eberron to BE a steampunk setting for the reasons I described above. It lacks things that I consider vital to a steampunk setting: the exploration of the barrier between magic and technology; the imaginative use of steam-era technology; often, specifically Victorian flavor; and, among other things, guns. Steampunk is certainly, in my mind, a subgenre of pulp. Eberron is definitely pulp. There's lots of areas of overlap. It's just that at the end of the day it lacks key features that I require to think of something as "Steampunk", and this was intentional in the original design. Exactly what I was thinking. :D ...well...Minus your mentioning of the lack of tech...But Generally what I was thinking!
Edymnion 06-09-07, 07:54 PM	I'm not saying that Mr. Baker put steampunk elements in deliberately, but if this thread shows nothing else, it shows that a few people have found things that feel like steampunk.So? There were people claiming to have found satanic imagry in CARE BEARS. There's an old addage, "You always find what you go looking for." If I go into something with the express intent of trying to find any kind of evidence for whatever, I'll find it, if its actually there or not.
DragoonDarkfire 06-09-07, 08:12 PM	So? There were people claiming to have found satanic imagry in CARE BEARS. There's an old addage, "You always find what you go looking for." If I go into something with the express intent of trying to find any kind of evidence for whatever, I'll find it, if its actually there or not. It's the reasoning behind fangirls.
Hellcow 06-09-07, 08:27 PM	So? There were people claiming to have found satanic imagry in CARE BEARS. And there's CERTAINLY people who've found satanic imagery in Eberron. Someone posted a diatribe about how dragonmarks were clearly the Mark of the Beast, since, of course, "the Dragon" is another name for Satan. How I managed to overlook this in my initial design, I don't know, but people may be shocked to learn that I WASN'T trying to set up the Dragonmarked Houses as servants of the Devil. So if you want to call Eberron "Satanpunk", there's people out there ready to back you up... but that's certainly not the intention of the game.
Arcane Guyver 06-09-07, 08:48 PM	"Satanpunk" I like it. :D Direct and to the point.
AkumaDaimyo 06-09-07, 10:52 PM	I love how all the Eberron is steampunk people also completly forget Steampunk is more than steam engines and big dirty Industrial Age tech. It's also an attitude. The punk attitude is pretty absent in Eberron. That "guy" may have been a jerk with his post but being a jerk doesn't make him wrong.
Euangelion 06-10-07, 12:41 AM	How I managed to overlook this in my initial design, I don't know, but people may be shocked to learn that I WASN'T trying to set up the Dragonmarked Houses as servants of the Devil. Right. Like Erandis d'Vol, oh great Hellcow. I'm on to you!! :detect: (Of course, I'm totally kidding. It's sad that I have to actually say it, but there it is.)
AkumaDaimyo 06-10-07, 12:47 AM	You think Hellcow/Keith Baker DOESN'T have a ring of undectable alingment or something? :rolleyes:
gensuke626 06-10-07, 03:44 AM	So? There were people claiming to have found satanic imagry in CARE BEARS. There's an old addage, "You always find what you go looking for." If I go into something with the express intent of trying to find any kind of evidence for whatever, I'll find it, if its actually there or not. Now here's the fun part. I never went into Eberron looking for anything. I actually popped the book open on a whim, thinking it'd be just another D&D World, though the cover was cool. The introduction impressed me so much that I've been a fan since that fateful day. I barely played D&D before Eberron, now I'm starving for games. But I'm going off topic. Point is, while the addage may ring true most of the time, it doesn't account for the entirety of it. I mean, I didn't see steampunk in Eberron at first glance, but as I dug deeper I found bits and pieces with that feel to it. Come to think of it...When I first read the intro to ECS, my first question to my friends was "Think they'll have a magical hat that always falls off at dramatic moments, but you can always get it back?
DBlizzard 06-10-07, 04:26 AM	And there's CERTAINLY people who've found satanic imagery in Eberron. Someone posted a diatribe about how dragonmarks were clearly the Mark of the Beast, since, of course, "the Dragon" is another name for Satan. How I managed to overlook this in my initial design, I don't know, but people may be shocked to learn that I WASN'T trying to set up the Dragonmarked Houses as servants of the Devil. LOL. That's great. Don't forget, "Paul is dead." :)
ALRUFF 06-10-07, 04:58 AM	Whoa. What an awesome series of responses! First of all, I have to apologize. I got pretty defensive and looked like a total idiot. I felt like that guy was calling me a fool... Well, he was, actually, but that's no reason to get dismissive of everyone's arguments. It's better to look beyond that sort of thing. I feel that the simple fact is that every instance of potential internal combustion in Eberron is simply replaced with magic. Like somehow it's easier to bind an elemental into something than put in a boiler/turbine system. The gnomes of Zilargo can forge the most intricate clockwork trinkets, but a full-on coal-powered steam turbine system isn't there? It seemed to me that the setting merely replaced the steam with magic and called it a day. Not that that's a bad thing. I rather enjoy Eberron, even if I wonder where the coal went. I own quite a few Eberron books. That being said, I've always imagined Eberron as rather gear-heavy. Not gear like equipment, but gears like cogs. A particular image that comes to mind is the Extreme Explorer on page 79. Heck, the Warforged are forged, robotic automata. Now, none of these things are EXCLUSIVE to steampunk, but one might say that they are staples of the genre. As for this argument against the "punk" attitude, Eberron is full of misanthropic folks who don't trust the local or even guild governments. We call them PCs. Now, not everyone is that way, but I think that the characters of Dane and his crew are a good indicator that not everyone wants to simply fall in line. And Eberron is CERTAINLY a dystopian setting. Just look at the fallout from Cyre. Look at the lies of Aundair. Look at the dangers of stepping off the rock where you were born. It's fraught with peril, much of it politically-generated. And if you think that Breland isn't the type of country to crush folk underfoot, read the stories of the refugee camps in The Dreaming Dark. So I guess I can settle on "magicpunk." I see Eberron as a place filled with magic tech gone wrong, with amped-up, clockwork, magic-powered inventions. I think it's an age of discovery, and an age of imperialism, as new nations rise and others consider slicing throats. Maybe the tech does make the 'punk. After all, the only difference 'twixt cyberpunk and steampunk is the steam (which, in turn, dictates the time). The power supply thus creates the genre. So to recap why I'm wrong: Eberron doesn't have steam, it has magic. Thus the confusion.
Shady314 06-10-07, 05:07 AM	Clockwork and gears etc. has very little place in Eberron actually. That's why those clockwork articles were so reviled and that's why calling warforged, automata, is rather innacurate. They really are just sentient golems and golems are very different in feel (if not function) than automata. EDIT: Wow nice attention to detail on that pic. I looked at it again not remembering any sort of gear involvement in the picture and what do I see but one of the holes he's falling down has a gear outline to it. No actual gears though. It could just have been some long gone seal I suppose. Still I don't see how that makes Eberron gear-heavy.
DBlizzard 06-10-07, 05:24 AM	Clockwork and gears etc. has very little place in Eberron actually. Yes & no. I agree, as written they aren't part of the setting. However, I do think it's not too difficult for those DMs who wish that to be part of their Eberron to fit it into the setting. Much easier than adding the lightning rail to the Forgotten Realms,for example. hat's why those clockwork articles were so reviled and that's why calling warforged, automata, is rather innacurate. I'm not even sure Wolfgang wrote those articles in an Eberron context. He probably submitted them to WotC and they decided they needed more web Eberron content so out an Eberron label on them. They fit much better in his City-State of Zobeck setting.
OneWinged4ngel 06-10-07, 05:29 AM	Clockwork and gears etc. has very little place in Eberron actually. That's why those clockwork articles were so reviled Oh ye gods, those articles were horrible. And the spell clock... it was missing half the rules for it! You couldn't actually use the article if you tried! Auuuuugh. Anyways, yeah, clockwork and gears are not exactly common in Eberron. Also, Eberron seems to me to be just putting its magic to use more intelligently and realistically than many other settings (where, to quote one of my players with some of the profanity removed commenting on FR, "those dang wizards up in their towers and those frikkin' druids in the woods have the power to end drought, placate the hungry, cleanse the waters, light the night, and blur the line between poor and wealthy with their crazy high level spells... those kings with the power to bend reality to their whims... they all just sit there with their thumbs up their rear and their noses in the air.") Really, a lot of the magic items that give Eberron its "technological" feel exist in other settings (including core D&D). People just don't seem to want to use them half the time for some reason. Intelligent constructs can be found in FR. Constructs are found throughout D&D. Items that replicate Sending or other message spells are found in core D&D and just about every setting. The whole gears thing... really isn't there so much as you seem to think it is. Industry doesn't have much of a place in Eberron, and creation of "technology" (magic) is completely relegated to skilled individuals, like just about every other D&D setting. There are no factories or anything of the sort.
Shady314 06-10-07, 05:36 AM	I agree, as written they aren't part of the setting. That's all I meant. I'm not passing judgement on anyone's homeruling or brewing. I'm not even sure Wolfgang wrote those articles in an Eberron context. He probably submitted them to WotC and they decided they needed more web Eberron content so out an Eberron label on them. I didn't say who wrote them or blame/badmouth Wolfgang. Just pointed out those clockwork articles (regardless of why they were placed on the Eberron site) really didn't fit in well and were generally disliked.
OneWinged4ngel 06-10-07, 05:42 AM	I didn't say who wrote them or blame/badmouth Wolfgang. Just pointed out those clockwork articles (regardless of why they were placed on the Eberron site) really didn't fit in well and were generally disliked. Reviled! Reviled!! *holds up the symbol of the Silver Flame and a silverburn candle trying to ward off the sense of evil that pervades the mention of the articles.* Heh, nevermind the lackluster flavor. The mechanics were just sickening. 10 foot steps and spell clocks. Ugh. ...K, I'm done bashing Wolfgang, heh.
ALRUFF 06-10-07, 05:58 AM	Still I don't see how that makes Eberron gear-heavy. In addition to that pic, you can check out other fine mechanical work on pages 119 (no gears, but mechanical nonetheless), the House Cannith SYMBOL (eh? eh? good find?), the bottom levels of Sharn are called the Cogs, and check the ceiling on the photo on page 103 of the Sharn book. Also, the domed glass visible on many of the airships, as well as Sharn lends itself to a certain Victorian sensibility. This is not because the Victorians were the first to have glass windows, but rather because this is when that particular architectural element appeared. Now I'm not trying to split hairs here (even if I succeeded), but there is no doubt in my mind that Eberron offers many Victorian visual cues. Granted that these are mixed in with its overwhelming Rennaissance-era style.
ALRUFF 06-10-07, 06:03 AM	There are no factories or anything of the sort. Except the Cogs in Sharn... Or the airshipyards in Zilargo... Or the House Cannith foundries that used to dot Cyre, where they cranked out Forged en masse...
Shady314 06-10-07, 06:15 AM	In addition to that pic, you can check out other fine mechanical work on pages 119 (no gears, but mechanical nonetheless), the House Cannith SYMBOL (eh? eh? good find?), the bottom levels of Sharn are called the Cogs, and check the ceiling on the photo on page 103 of the Sharn book. Also, the domed glass visible on many of the airships, as well as Sharn lends itself to a certain Victorian sensibility. This is not because the Victorians were the first to have glass windows, but rather because this is when that particular architectural element appeared. Now I'm not trying to split hairs here (even if I succeeded), but there is no doubt in my mind that Eberron offers many Victorian visual cues. Granted that these are mixed in with its overwhelming Rennaissance-era style. Well first of all Art doesn't define the setting or any setting. Artists have their artisitic sensibilities first and the world's actual mechanics and such second. Fem-forged anyone? Second I'm not the one that stated factories don't exist in Eberron though it's true the factories as we know them don't exist or the factories of the industrial revolution. They are more like massive workshops. Creation forges were sort of an exception but there are only 1 1/2 left. Nor did I say there was nothing mechanical in Eberron. There is but it's hardly definitive of the setting or abundant. Thirdly yeah Cannith has a gear in their symbol that I actually saw. Wow the house known for making stuff has a gear in their art symbol. How shocking clearly this makes Eberron ALL about the clockwork. The symbols of the houses are supposed to evoke the feelings of what they do. So Cannith makes stuff and to evoke that there's A gear in it. Where's the proof Eberron is gear-HEAVY? Fourth when you start trying to argue there's a steampunk element because some of the architecture is evocative of the Victorian era you're really really stretching. RPG Art is just cool pictures. EDIT: I'm not seeing the "mechanical" on page 119. it looks magical and there's a lot of debris that's metal. Is metalworking mechanical now? Page 103 os S:CoT is a FOUNDRY. It's even labeled as such... yeah it has gears but again it's not running any sort of advanced technology. We had this stuff in the classical age! A few art pieces here and there doesn't trump everything and make Eberron all about gears and clockwork.
Shady314 06-10-07, 06:17 AM	Except the Cogs in Sharn... Or the airshipyards in Zilargo... Or the House Cannith foundries that used to dot Cyre, where they cranked out Forged en masse... But those places aren't factories the way we'd recognize or think of them. There's no assembly lines or anything. They're more massive workshops. Humans built ships en masse in the classical age. They didn't have factories though.
ALRUFF 06-10-07, 06:29 AM	But those places aren't factories the way we'd recognize or think of them. There's no assembly lines or anything. They're more massive workshops. Humans built ships en masse in the classical age. They didn't have factories though. I was just wondering that same thing about the assembly lines, actually. I never quite got a chance to find that out in the books. Your research is appreciated. On the cog front. I was offering to prove the existence of the cog. Once you do that, it's easy to make the leap to say that there is a cog (or a few) in every complex mechanical device. To throw out the art from the RPG seems a fallacy to me, since very little of the game's feel can actually be reflected with mechanics. Sure, you've got your falling damage and whatnot, but removing art, you've got very little in the way of a look and feel. However, I can see my platform rapidly eroding as I look at more classical examples such as the works of DaVinci, who had no steam technology and focused on human power. He could replicate most effects in Eberron technology without magic, but also without steam.
Shady314 06-10-07, 06:32 AM	On the cog front. I was offering to prove the existence of the cog. Once you do that, it's easy to make the leap to say that there is a cog (or a few) in every complex mechanical device. HEHE well we can both agree the cog exists in Eberron. I don't think that was ever in doubt. My only contention was that there were many "complex" mechanical devices in Eberron. That's usually when the magic steps in. Steam engine? Nah. Conductor stones. Robots/automata? Nah. Sentient constructs seamlessly made of wood and metal and stone. Etc.
ALRUFF 06-10-07, 06:46 AM	HEHE well we can both agree the cog exists in Eberron. I don't think that was ever in doubt. My only contention was that there were many "complex" mechanical devices in Eberron. That's usually when the magic steps in. Steam engine? Nah. Conductor stones. Robots/automata? Nah. Sentient constructs seamlessly made of wood and metal and stone. Etc. Again, that is whence the steampunk/magicpunk dichotomy stemmed. It's funny. When I began this thread, I never considered the existence of this so-called magicpunk. Because I had no mental construction of the sub-subgenre, I had placed Eberron soundly in the steampunk category, because of its flavor similarities. Now, I would say it easily fits this burgeoning category. This would be much the same as me calling Firefly a western. It resembles a western, but there are better genres for it. I think that the key point in the debate for me was when I finally realized that the primary tech source dictates the genre (strange though that may be). At first, I thought it was just a cop out, that they were changing one word (steam==magic) and calling it a day. However, the more I looked at it, the more I realized that was all any of the 'punks did.
j3573r 06-10-07, 07:51 AM	Anyone ever done genre studies? It's quite a useful thing to know when arguing genre distinctions. From my vantage, the problem here seems to be partly miscommunication, specifically of the meaning of genre. Some of us are assuming that genre is a classification that slots "things" (games, books, movies, etc) into specific categories that have specific rules and indicators. And thats right. Others are assuming that genre is a more free flowing thing that allows for divergence and exploration of accepted standards, and which moves said standards all the time. And thats also right. Is Eberron Steampunk? If your coming from assumption A, then no, because steampunk has it's own rules that are pretty, from this assumption's point of view, strict. If your coming from assumption B, then Yes, it is. Or No, it isn't. It's really up to you, your subjective response and the arguments presented for and against. And even then, that's only your conclusion. So really, isn't arguing whether or not Eberron is Steampunk or not rather pointless, as, depending on each of our vantage points, any possible answer is correct?
Kensan_Oni 06-10-07, 09:57 AM	Anyone ever done genre studies? It's quite a useful thing to know when arguing genre distinctions. From my vantage, the problem here seems to be partly miscommunication, specifically of the meaning of genre. Some of us are assuming that genre is a classification that slots "things" (games, books, movies, etc) into specific categories that have specific rules and indicators. And thats right. Others are assuming that genre is a more free flowing thing that allows for divergence and exploration of accepted standards, and which moves said standards all the time. And thats also right. Is Eberron Steampunk? If your coming from assumption A, then no, because steampunk has it's own rules that are pretty, from this assumption's point of view, strict. If your coming from assumption B, then Yes, it is. Or No, it isn't. It's really up to you, your subjective response and the arguments presented for and against. And even then, that's only your conclusion. So really, isn't arguing whether or not Eberron is Steampunk or not rather pointless, as, depending on each of our vantage points, any possible answer is correct? No, you're wrong. Definitively wrong. Group A is correct. Assumption B is wrong. Definition gen·re /ˈʒɑnrə; Fr. ˈʒɑ̃rə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[zhahn-ruh; Fr. zhahn-ruh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -res /-rəz; Fr. -rə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[-ruhz; Fr. -ruh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, adjective –noun 1. a class or category of artistic endeavor having a particular form, content, technique, or the like: the genre of epic poetry; the genre of symphonic music. 2. Fine Arts. a. paintings in which scenes of everyday life form the subject matter. b. a realistic style of painting using such subject matter. 3. genus; kind; sort; style. –adjective 4. Fine Arts. of or pertaining to genre. 5. of or pertaining to a distinctive literary type. Furthermore Main Entry: steampunk Part of Speech: n Definition: a genre of science fiction set in Victorian times when steam was the main source of machine power; also written [steam-punk] Source: Dictionary.com Not only is steampunk well defined, the concept of genre is very well defined. As there is nothing Victorian about Eberron, and steam is not a power source at all, it can not be STEAM PUNK. Stop trying to muddle the issue. Stop trying to make other people sound reasonable by taking an arbitrary role. They are just simply wrong, and trying to make them sound right does not make them right.
The White Sorcerer 06-10-07, 10:15 AM	So, I think we've pretty much established the following: Gears and cogs: In Eberron Clockwork: Out of Eberron Am I correct?
j3573r 06-10-07, 11:45 AM	No, you're wrong. Definitively wrong. Group A is correct. Assumption B is wrong. Wow. I really didn't expect that. You've got a dictionary definition of genre. That's nice, but it doesn't make you right. I mentioned genre studies specifically because there are differing ways of classifying and understanding genre, and different people choose different stances. Said choice is partly to blame for the continuing argument in this very thread. Genre is, depending on your definition, very vague or very strict. Mostly these days, its Vague. Which is why some people choose to include or exclude characteristics into genres that other people don't. This the the crux of it. People will be individuals. They will each define genre differently, and that definition will change what they classify as one genre or another. It can be as subjective or structural as you want it to be. That's just how genre is these days. You can argue all you want. But you have no idea from what basis your opponent is starting. Neither does he. How will one of you win?
Hellcow 06-10-07, 01:04 PM	I feel that the simple fact is that every instance of potential internal combustion in Eberron is simply replaced with magic. Like somehow it's easier to bind an elemental into something than put in a boiler/turbine system. This is, however, one of the primary assumptions of the world. Is it easier to craft a wand of fireballs than a gunpowder cannon? Certainly not for us. But the point is that by the time that someone in Eberron said "I want a weapon that can fire over long distances and damage many people", they already HAD fireballs... while no one had ever considered gunpowder. Magic is a science that the people of Eberron understand. Look at it this way. Have any of the automobile manufacturers in our world attempted to create an elementally powered car? Have any military forces tried to bind the power of magic to create missiles? No. Yet do we KNOW that it's impossible to do so? No - magic's even a part of our myth and folklore. We rely on technology because it's what we know and because it works. In Eberron, around the same point in the development of civilization where we turned to technology, they had arcane magic. That's what they knew, and it worked. So that's what they use. COULD you build a gunpowder cannon or coal engine in Eberron? Probably. I've never said anything like "coal doesn't exist." But it's just not something people have ever tried to do, because all of the most inventive minds of Eberron look for new ways to use magic - not ways to get around it. (And remember, we even have magic in our folklore; they don't have gunpowder in theirs.) The gnomes of Zilargo can forge the most intricate clockwork trinkets... You'll never see this suggested in anything I write. Look in the Zilargo dragonshard, the ECS, or the PGtE and tell me where clockwork is mentioned. In my opinion, saying that gnomes make clockwork is a fallback to the traditional image of the tinker gnome, something which I feel has no place in Eberron. In my opinion, gnomes have a gift for magic, because they are inherently magical creatures - one example of this is the Thurimbar rod, which amplifies a gnome's innate power to produce ghost sounds to create other forms of music. The gnomes are experts at elemental binding. So they might have a trinket animated by the most trivial of elementals. But introducing the idea of advanced clockwork automata into the setting doesn't fit that fundamental philosophy I described above, and pushing it on the gnomes seems like an attempt to cling to the gnome stereotypes of other settings instead of embracing the things that make Eberron's gnomes unique. It seemed to me that the setting merely replaced the steam with magic and called it a day. And again, the point is, if you had magic, would you think of steam? There was a time in our world when no one had thought of a steam engine. What if that same genius who first considered the idea had been a gnome elemental binder instead of an engineer? So instead of looking for a mechanical solution, he said "You know, I could use an air elemental to create a force of wind to fill a sail..." As I said before, in my opinion many Steampunk games focus on magic and technology evolving in tandem. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. With Eberron I wanted to take a different approach - to say that if, at that turning point when technology really took off, we'd had magic instead - where would society go? Arcane magic IS a science. It follows formulas, obeys rules, is predictable, can be taught. So why ISN'T it harnessed in the same way that we've harnessed steam and electricity in our world? Iron Kingdoms does provide a fantasy world with steam; with Eberron I was taking a different approach. That being said, I've always imagined Eberron as rather gear-heavy. Not gear like equipment, but gears like cogs. Heck, Eberron uses the crossbow. Which is a key point. I said that it followed magic instead of technology at a certain point in the development. But at a fundamental level? Sure, you've got pulleys. You've got wheels. A massive mill might be POWERED by a bound elemental, but it's still a wheel for grinding wheat. Just as we didn't always have gunpowder or internal combustion, Eberron didn't always have magic. So simply mechanics certainly exist. Heck, the Warforged are forged, robotic automata. I'll admit that the warforged titan has a very steampunky look, especially with the cowcatcher mouth. However, the basic warforged aren't robotic at all... and when you get right down to it, they aren't even forged. Warforged are living constructs that actually respond partially to healing spells. As described in the warforged dragonshard, the bulk of the warforged is acutally made up of fibrous bundles similar to livewood roots; these are what serve as its muscular system. It's more like a cyborg, with the organic components generated through magic. Meanwhile, the creation forges used a magical process similar to the creation spells; again, they were essentially grown from the forge, not constructed in the traditional assembly line sense. Warforged are living constructs, formed of metal, stone, wood, leather, and other materials. But I disagree with the idea that they are "robotic". Humans didn't design each part of the warforged for a specific function; heck, warforged would be better soldiers if they didn't feel pain, for example, and yet they do. As for the "Punk" attitude? That's something that seems to me to be a huge semantic issue. It's all in what people are looking for from the setting, which was essentially designed to offer a spectrum of play - Indiana Jones AND The Maltese Falcon. You want straight black and white pulp adventure? It's there. Go to Xen'drik and fight the Emerald Claw. You want dystopian angst? Go to Sharn. Get involved in the aftermath of the last war, with the growing power of the Dragonmarked houses and the fading trust in the monarchies. Get involved in the war between Boromar and Daask. Look at the life of the warforged in Blackbones or the Cyrans in High Walls. Most games are going to fall somewhere in the middle. But it's there if you want it to be there. So certainly the theme of rising industrial power set against fading monarchies can map to many "punk" genres. And yes, this is an age in which new discoveries - warforged, airships - are having a considerable impact on society. Again, in my mind, it all comes down to what YOU mean by your terms. I've explained why I didn't call it steampunk... which after all, was the original question. ;)
ALRUFF 06-10-07, 01:48 PM	Sorry I made some of those assumptions. That pretty much qualifies as a definitive answer. Roger-dodger and over-and-out.
Hellcow 06-10-07, 02:09 PM	Sorry I made some of those assumptions. Not at all. It's still a good question, and I certainly respect the fact that some people disagree with me, believing that people would pursue gunpowder even if they already had fireballs. I have no problem with the debate; I'm simply explaining my intention when I designed the setting, and the stance I work from when I'm writing for it. Clearly there are people who feel that clockwork automata have a place in Eberron - I'm just not one of them. ;)
Kreistor2 06-10-07, 02:50 PM	Eberron can easily be played as 'punk'. Most of Hellcow's arguments are purely visual, not mechanical, so though they eliminate the specification required for 'Steam' era, it does not eliminate the style 'punk'. Does it truly matter to the play style if an Elemental Lightning Rail spews steam or sparks lightning? Both machines move heavy weights of trade and people from one place to another: a true Steampunk storyline can be rewritten with only changes in location and names, with minor details that convert steam power to elemental power, and survive the transition intact. That makes the argument one of fluff, not setting. Though Eberron may be intended for Pulp Noir, the setting itself is extremely open to interpretation and development. One of the features of Punk worlds is conflict between businesses that dominate society. Certainly, the Houses can be developed in that direction. Punk is about betrayal and lies, mercenaries surviving the betrayal of employers and friends, and that can be placed in any world. Steampunk comes from Cyberpunk, and Cyberpunk is, essentially, a story about gathering talented individuals to perform an illegal act in a competition between two powerful forces beyond the scope of the players to perceive. Whether the world has vibroblades or vorpal swords, the details of fluff are not important to the style of gameplay. Punk is a style, like Pulp and Noir. Hellcow presents that Eberron is intended for Pulp Noir. Pulp comes from the classic 30-50's over-the-top action movies and serials (as well as books), which eventually turned into Indiana Jones and the like which were homages to that era. Noir comes from Film Noir, which created a style that drew good characters into terrible situations where they came to commit acts that they otherwise wouldn't. These are concepts of style, which makes the fluff of the world around them unimportant. The same goes with Pulp, though it is easier to see there since Pulp crossed lines into all genres. There was Western Pulp, Sci Fi Pulp, Fantasy Pulp, Mobster Pulp, and so on. Film Noir was very much about the era of the viewer, though as Hellcow has done, the style can transfer if desired. Punk is the same thing. Steampunk is drawn from Cyberpunk, with the only serious difference being the technology that you work with. The Wild, Wild West movie with Will Smith was, in essence, a Steam era movie, but one would call it Steampulp, not Steampunk, because it lacks the betrayal of the heroes by their employers, or the mercenary attitude of the heroes. Eberron could be used for a Punk style, but Steampunk would be the incorrect term because Steam refers to the era, and Eberron is not truly a Steam technology. Magicpunk, maybe? In the end, it's not the setting that selects the Punk part of Steampunk, but the style of play. And, ultimately, Eberron does contain all the elements you need for good Punk, due to the flexibility and lack of specification that Hellcow designed into it.
Euangelion 06-10-07, 03:57 PM	Clearly there are people who feel that clockwork automata have a place in Eberron - I'm just not one of them. ;) I'm tempted to sig this one too, but I don't want to be too much of a jerk. ;)
Joni-san 06-10-07, 05:04 PM	Oh yeah, this is going to be a real mature debate. Here, I'll save time. "You're wrong. Exaggerated hyperbolic examplep that detracts from the conversation. Personal attack." "Personal attack, non sequitor. No, You're wrong." "Patronizing condescention. I can't be wrong. I am right and that's that." "Nuh uh. Derailment of topic." "Uh huh. Further derailment of topic." "No. Here's how I'm right in the derailment and how I'm right in the general topic." "You're wrong on all counts and ad hominem. Also, your mother." "This is stupid. We're not getting anywhere. But I'm still right." "Agreed. Except when you're wrong." End of thread. Putting the rest of this thread aside this is an awesome post.
OneWinged4ngel 06-10-07, 05:38 PM	Putting the rest of this thread aside this is an awesome post. Heh, it's an old joke... ___ Anyways, glad I could help out when a person *actually* is willing to change their mind in response to logical debate. Sorry again for being a bit harsh initially.
ALRUFF 06-10-07, 06:07 PM	Anyways, glad I could help out when a person *actually* is willing to change their mind in response to logical debate. Sorry again for being a bit harsh initially. Friend, I never ask a question if I don't want an answer. I appreciate all of your help.
The White Sorcerer 06-10-07, 06:36 PM	Eberron could be used for a Punk style That said, so could Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. A bit of punk is kind of built into the whole D&D game.
Rechan 06-10-07, 07:04 PM	That said, so could Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. A bit of punk is kind of built into the whole D&D game. Although certain parts of Eberron seem to facilitate that. I mean, the Dragonmarked Houses are as close to a fantasy Corporation as you can get.
OneWinged4ngel 06-10-07, 09:26 PM	Friend, I never ask a question if I don't want an answer. I appreciate all of your help. You'd be surprised how many people on these boards (and others) do. *Sigh*
Charles Phipps 06-10-07, 10:49 PM	I assumed it was Magipunk. I.e. a society that adopted tropes of the Industrialized Age of Society in a very controlling level (Super-corporations controlled by the Dragonmarked Houses, the governments either corrupt or cruel, and large amounts of artificial people plotting to take over the world). The player characters are probably disaffected loners to a large extent due to the alienation of the war. In effect, its the Punk element that matters rather than the Magic part. ....*cough*...except for the fact that its not JUST punk. It seems to me that its a bit like White Wolf in that respect. Originally, everyone assumed that people would play a bunch of brooding leather jacket wearing Anarchs (which they certainly did). However, it turned out that there were a lot of people not so interested in Fight the Man stories with plenty wanting to BE the Man. Eberron seems also to have Pulp and Noir in addition to Magicpunk. Ironically, Eberron isn't the first setting with Magicpunk elements. The first and foremost Magicpunk setting was Planescape where the entire setting was based around the Harmonium/Guvers/Mercykillers being the enemies of all right thinking Berks. Eberron doesn't do this nearly so pronounced though. However, what it does do is provide a D&D alternative to an Industrialized Society like Great Briatin so you can do Sherlock Holmes, The Time Traveller, and WW2 Spy adventures without actually having to sit down and describe all the technology involved in it. Ultimately, for Eberron to have been fully MagicPunk then it would probably need to much strong accent the undercurrent of disaffection with the Four Kingdoms than it currently has. Steampunk, FYI, can't also be done outside of a Victorian Setting anymore than Cyberpunk could be done in the Victorian Setting because the issue is tropes.
cancerousmango 06-12-07, 01:11 AM	:rolleyes:
Charles Phipps 06-12-07, 01:33 AM	So, anyone have any comment on the topic?
The White Sorcerer 06-12-07, 10:36 AM	:rolleyes: Classy. ——— As for the actual topic, I think it has also been established that Eberron has significant potential for punk, but that it isn't the setting's actual genre. We should now move this thread into the direction of "Magicpunk 101: How to Fight the Man in Eberron."
The Dreaming Duck 06-12-07, 11:27 AM	So, anyone have any comment on the topic? Don't be silly. "Douche" has now become the topic. Since we've already had a dictionary definition of genre and steampunk, I'll observe that "douche" doesn't seem like much of an insult, really... douche (dōōsh) n. A stream of water, often containing medicinal or cleansing agents, that is applied to a body part or cavity for hygienic or therapeutic purposes. Once you replace "body part" with "board thread", what you're suggesting is that the poster is, in fact, a medicinal force whose input has a therapeutic, cleansing effect on what is, presumably, a filthy thread in need of such treatment.
UnderworldLord 06-12-07, 09:20 PM	After my initial post I waited to see what would come of this discussion. Like a good thread, it held a nice surprise of compromise at the end. I also maintain that my Eberron will remain either pulp fiction or high fantasy, depending on my group. Guns, tech, automata, and other such advances will remain removed from it, so long as I DM it. My Eberron also will not be compatible with 'punk'. However, as is also the point of any D&D game, if you are the DM, it is your game. It can be steam/cyber/magic-punk in yours, and you may place any house-rules you like in there. To misquote a popular saying, "This is my Eberron. There are many like it but this one is mine." My Eberron tends to stick with the core material that has been produced, with me making decisions on places where contradictions are made as well as enforcing erratas as I see fit. Also of note: Quite frankly, DD, you have given me an entirely new perspective.
ArcTan 06-15-07, 07:17 AM	Anyone ever done genre studies? It's quite a useful thing to know when arguing genre distinctions. From my vantage, the problem here seems to be partly miscommunication, specifically of the meaning of genre. Some of us are assuming that genre is a classification that slots "things" (games, books, movies, etc) into specific categories that have specific rules and indicators. And thats right. Others are assuming that genre is a more free flowing thing that allows for divergence and exploration of accepted standards, and which moves said standards all the time. And thats also right. Is Eberron Steampunk? If your coming from assumption A, then no, because steampunk has it's own rules that are pretty, from this assumption's point of view, strict. If your coming from assumption B, then Yes, it is. Or No, it isn't. It's really up to you, your subjective response and the arguments presented for and against. And even then, that's only your conclusion. So really, isn't arguing whether or not Eberron is Steampunk or not rather pointless, as, depending on each of our vantage points, any possible answer is correct? You don't need to take genre studies to say this. You just have to say "Assumption A: Some people mean something specific when they use a word" and "Assumption B: Some people use words sloppily to mean something that reminds them of something else". People going by assumption A get annoyed at people going by assumption B, because assumption B confuses them and makes it hard to talk about things and the people using assumption B could easily use other words anyway. I'm *aware* that the word "steampunk" has many different meanings. I'm also aware that there's a very broad, very sloppy meaning of "steampunk" that people like to use in order to make things sound more experimental or cutting-edge than they really are (a very, very common obfuscatory use of genre categorization), in which "steampunk" really means nothing more than a fantasy world that defies certain black-and-white moral assumptions of "Tolkienesque" fantasy, or even simply fantasy that doesn't remind you of Tolkien, period. Eberron is "steampunk" by this definition. So is 90% of everything, including large portions of Forgotten Realms. "Steampunk" by this definition becomes a stupid meaningless marketing buzzword, and I *hate* stupid meaningless marketing buzzwords. I especially hate the irony that uncreative marketing suits have, without any sense of guilt or shame, stolen the word "punk" for this purpose. This is a stupid definition. By this definition, works written decades ago and as disparate as A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, Fritz Lieber's Nehwon stories, and J.R.R. Tolkien's Roverandom could all be "steampunk". Hell, by this definition, there is a vantage point from which you could argue that Eberron is "Tolkienesque high fantasy" (by virtue of the large amount of stuff that it *keeps* from D&D rather than tossing out -- compared to Perdido Street Station, the Eberron campaign setting is as conventional and as high fantasy as the Sword of bloody Shannara).
ArcTan 06-15-07, 07:37 AM	I assumed it was Magipunk. I.e. a society that adopted tropes of the Industrialized Age of Society in a very controlling level (Super-corporations controlled by the Dragonmarked Houses, the governments either corrupt or cruel, and large amounts of artificial people plotting to take over the world). The player characters are probably disaffected loners to a large extent due to the alienation of the war. Wow. That's... actually a quite enormous stretch, at least by my lights. I mean, you can run it that way, but you can run Forgotten Realms that way too. Waterdeep just needs a few tweaks to be "punk". The fact that those "few tweaks" involve rather enormously changing the expected tone of the setting (making Khelben the bad guy, for instance) is the point. What you describe are the elements Keith said made Eberron "noir", and noir is pretty different as a genre descriptor from punk, even in the intangibles. It's quite clear in Eberron that there are good guys, all the way up to the highest levels (Queen Aurala is NG), and that there is a way life should be, and that the world as it currently exists is not a bad place to live -- in fact, a dynamic and exciting and prosperous place to live, in the years after the war. It's all on a teetering balance that may come toppling down, but it hasn't toppled yet -- where as a truly cyberpunk setting would be *about* the toppling, would make it inevitable, and would have the PCs along for the wild ride. In effect, its the Punk element that matters rather than the Magic part. ....*cough*...except for the fact that its not JUST punk. It seems to me that its a bit like White Wolf in that respect. Originally, everyone assumed that people would play a bunch of brooding leather jacket wearing Anarchs (which they certainly did). However, it turned out that there were a lot of people not so interested in Fight the Man stories with plenty wanting to BE the Man. Dude, there's a lot more to punk than being the underdog. Fight the Man stories are much older than punk, and if they're *truly* optimistically revolutionary then there's actually something not-quite-punk about them -- the word punk has always had an edge of cynical nihilism to it. (Punks do not sing along with L'Internationale.) Yeah, Vampire tried to cop a punk attitude with the Brujah and such, but it was dumb and a lot of people rejected it. (The concept of being some kind of revolutionary anarchist while, y'know, living in the shadows as a master-race drinking people's blood has "hypocrite" written all over it.) FWIW, *I* never thought Vampire would be about punk culture, but about goth culture (duh) and specifically the romantic-dark-personal-horror Anne Rice kind of crap that they mainly chose to associate with the Toreador clan. Eberron seems also to have Pulp and Noir in addition to Magicpunk. Keith Baker consistently uses "pulp/noir" to describe Eberron's tone and avoids using any words with "punk" in them, and I go with him on this. Ironically, Eberron isn't the first setting with Magicpunk elements. The first and foremost Magicpunk setting was Planescape where the entire setting was based around the Harmonium/Guvers/Mercykillers being the enemies of all right thinking Berks. Eberron doesn't do this nearly so pronounced though. You actually went through Planescape thinking it was obvious that the Guvners were the bad guys and the Anarchs and Xaositects were good guys? C'mon. The Establishment in Planescape was never lovable but you weren't supposed to be on any of the Factions' sides, really -- they're all kind of screwed up. I will agree that the "-punk" label applies to Planescape a lot more than Eberron, if only because the "Everything is insane, everything goes, everything's all messed up and nobody knows the right answers" feeling is much, much stronger in Planescape. Eberron provides plenty of opportunities to be a good guy doing your job and feel good doing it (a Paladin of the Silver Flame, a Gatekeeper Druid, even an ordinary Deneith Warden). You actually have to put some effort in as the DM to make the world feel chaotic and unmanageable and to make the PCs feel small, whereas in Planescape that's built right in. However, what it does do is provide a D&D alternative to an Industrialized Society like Great Briatin so you can do Sherlock Holmes, The Time Traveller, and WW2 Spy adventures without actually having to sit down and describe all the technology involved in it. Not steampunk, not steampunk, and not steampunk, respectively. (Also, you *can't* do H.G. Wells' The Time Machine, at least not any more easily than in another setting, because the most crucial element, the time machine, doesn't actually exist. And nothing about The Time Machine makes it easier to get a time machine because it's Victorian England -- the time machine is clearly a plot device made of unobtainium and the story could just as easily have taken place in the present day or the distant past, given how little time is actually spent in Victorian England rather than the far future.) Ultimately, for Eberron to have been fully MagicPunk then it would probably need to much strong accent the undercurrent of disaffection with the Four Kingdoms than it currently has. Steampunk, FYI, can't also be done outside of a Victorian Setting anymore than Cyberpunk could be done in the Victorian Setting because the issue is tropes. Five Nations. They're still called the Five Nations even after the Mourning, and they haven't all been kingdoms for some time (Thrane is a theocracy). The undercurrent of "disaffection" with the Five Nations is there but isn't "punk" at all, really -- you get the sense a standard Eberron PC will be trying to save the Five Nations from external threats or internal collapse, *not* simply watching the Five Nations go into their inevitable decline and try to speed them along.
ArcTan 06-15-07, 07:44 AM	Eberron could be used for a Punk style, but Steampunk would be the incorrect term because Steam refers to the era, and Eberron is not truly a Steam technology. Magicpunk, maybe? In the end, it's not the setting that selects the Punk part of Steampunk, but the style of play. And, ultimately, Eberron does contain all the elements you need for good Punk, due to the flexibility and lack of specification that Hellcow designed into it. Arguably, so does Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. Waterdeep is a "punk" setting, by this definition. The reason "-punk" has come to mean "anything that feels kinda modern" rather than all the stuff about chaos and alienation and inevitable decline and riotous self-destructive joy is that all of that latter stuff *feels* very modern to us -- it's always associated with youth, in whatever generation it emerges, whether that generation's dancing to the foxtrot or the Beatles or the Sex Pistols or Nirvana or I don't know what kids listen to these days -- and it's easier to *imagine* that kind of stuff in a familiar culture (so you *know* what, exactly, is sliding into decay and what monstrous beast is being futilely rebelled against) so whether it's the future (cyberpunk) or the past (steampunk) it gets tweaked to make it more familiar so you can do those themes more easily. You don't *have* to, though. Fritz Lieber did a great job a long time ago with the Nehwon stories in a setting that's very, very fantasy with little or anything you'd really call "modern" but was still very punk in its attitude, I would say. The Space Merchants is a future science fiction story that's quite punk in its attitude -- it's "spacepunk", a cyberpunk-like story without the cyber- (without the emphasis on digital technology and virtual realities and such). I would nominate a lot of Jack Vance's stories in the same category. Of course, these are stories from all over the map, and they make "punk" a near-useless category. A lot of people would say it's the *style* -- the narration, the piles of technobabble adjectives, the neo-teen slang, the baroque assortments of gadgets and hairstyles and body-mods -- that make cyberpunk cyberpunk, and that something has to remind you of that to also get the "-punk" suffix. Well, fine. Eberron doesn't remind me of that. Nehwon actually reminds me of that a lot more than Eberron. So where do we go from there?
TiwazTyrsfist 06-16-07, 09:31 PM	Eberron does have a steam punk feel. It all depends on how you define steam punk. Generally, steam punk blends victorian society with technology about 50 years ahead of our own in several fields, all powered by steam. Also ubiquitous is the shroud of fog/smog, created by the constantly venting steam and coal smoke that fuels the world. Eberron Combines renaissance society with tech-replacement magic that provides function that equals or exceeds our own. However, you will note the lack of ACTUAL technology, and more importantly the shroud of smog. Now, I personally consider Eberron to be steampunk, or atleast steampunkish, but I can completly see how someone can argue that it isn't. Edit: Kriestor2, I like that statement about Magicpunk. I hearby coin the term Magipunk! Eberron is a magipunk setting.
ArcTan 06-16-07, 10:13 PM	punk, or atleast steampunkish, but I can completly see how someone can argue that it isn't. Edit: Kriestor2, I like that statement about Magicpunk. I hearby coin the term Magipunk! Eberron is a magipunk setting. AAAAARRRRRRRGGGH!!!! I really hate it when I post, like, twenty times in a thread and it seems to fall on completely deaf ears. If the definition of "-punk" ever officially, definitely becomes "Hey, the world is, like, complicated and stuff", I swear I will blow up a building or something.
The White Sorcerer 06-16-07, 10:20 PM	It all depends on how you define steam punk. Yeah. It depends on whether you define it correctly or incorrectly. I hearby coin the term Magipunk! Eberron is a magipunk setting. Sorry, but you're too late. Eberron has been called magipunk since before it was released, and it was as inaccurate a term then as it is now.
OneWinged4ngel 06-17-07, 03:06 AM	AAAAARRRRRRRGGGH!!!! I really hate it when I post, like, twenty times in a thread and it seems to fall on completely deaf ears. QFT I know EXACTLY how you feel ArcTan. People just don't even pay attention half the time, and the worst time is when they won't even read the FIRST POST of a thread fully before replying. Cmon people, listening to what someone says before replying to them is just the polite and sensible thing to do.
Kreistor2 06-17-07, 11:09 AM	Of course, these are stories from all over the map, and they make "punk" a near-useless category. A lot of people would say it's the *style* -- the narration, the piles of technobabble adjectives, the neo-teen slang, the baroque assortments of gadgets and hairstyles and body-mods -- that make cyberpunk cyberpunk, and that something has to remind you of that to also get the "-punk" suffix. Well, fine. Eberron doesn't remind me of that. Nehwon actually reminds me of that a lot more than Eberron. So where do we go from there? Well, apparently you go bat-crazy over people ignoring you. 8) Just a joke: not intended to be taken seriously. What you're describing there is the trappings that make cyberpunk "cyber", not "punk". Cyber is the flavour, punk is the style of story. I think one of the penultimate cyberpunk stories is Burning Chrome, a novella by Gibson. It embodies some of those trappings you describe, but the story winds up with the protagonist, at best you can call him a thief, succeeding in his goal, but the success is shallow due to something beyond his control or knowledge. That twist is the punk. It makes the success turn to ash in his mouth. That kind of twist has nothing to do with the setting. Any story can end with a twist or backstab that makes the protagonist's success moot. Contrast this with Noir. Film Noir is a 1950's contemporary setting, which takes nothing from High Fantasy. It's meant to be real, and those that stick Noir to that setting to that style would argue about it the same way as you are about cyberpunk. In truth, Noir is about the descent of man when faced with a world that lacks absolutes and devolves into shades of grey. The point is to create situations where the players can't see the good for the convenient. Does it matter if they're trying to get information out of a Mob boss or a Bllod of Vol Vampire? Noir is about finding yourself descending and joining the ranks of those you wanted to destroy, not about 1950's USA. Confusing the imagery with the style is a common mistake. All genres do diffuse into other genres eventually. The definition of what is inside a genre is often performed years after those writing on it have moved on. Cyberpunk? It's pretty much gone now. Walter Jon Williams moved on to pace opera. Gibson hasn't written a good cyberpunk is onver a decade, though he has published attempts. And so on. Film Noir wasn't even identified as a genre until three or four years after the last film was made. It is when we look in hindsight back at the age that the definitive works are established and the fringe books identified. There is no final agreement over what is and is not Film Noir, and the same goes with Cyberpunk. Does the protagonist have to suffer that final near-tragic twist of fate for the book to be Cyberpunk? That's debatable, but it's present in the books most would call definitive to the genre.
The Livewire 06-17-07, 01:33 PM	Although certain parts of Eberron seem to facilitate that. I mean, the Dragonmarked Houses are as close to a fantasy Corporation as you can get. Funny, I always saw them as the Medicies (sp?) and other powerful merchant houses of Europe. Working both behind the scenes and in the front. Remember, the Borgia clan even got the Papacy under their thumb at one point. Heck house Canith is in the middle of a (cold) civil war. I don't see them as the Umbrella Corp or OCP in that aspect. If anything is megacorp to me, it's the Quori. (And in an amusing turn, I find the Ori, knock offs of the Quori, including the Inspired/Priors, supergate/monoliths, guess everything old is new again)
gensuke626 06-17-07, 05:40 PM	And again, the point is, if you had magic, would you think of steam? There was a time in our world when no one had thought of a steam engine. What if that same genius who first considered the idea had been a gnome elemental binder instead of an engineer? So instead of looking for a mechanical solution, he said "You know, I could use an air elemental to create a force of wind to fill a sail..." "You would make a ship sail against the winds and currents by binding an elemental under her deck? I have no time for such nonsense." - Long Defeated Brelish General.
Ishorn 06-17-07, 07:50 PM	This has been debated from day one and Stone Dog can testify about that. We were constantly defending Eberron when the nay sayers were slamming the setting saying that it was a rip off of Steampunk. I like Steampunk and Eberron so it does not bother me if people compare the two. I can tell you that I play in an Eberron Campaign and a Steampunk Mutants & Masterminds campaign and they are as different as night and day. The Steampank campaign is alot darker. I love both campaigns for their differences. So in my opinion give Eberron a shot. It is alot of fun.
ArcTan 06-18-07, 11:56 AM	Well, apparently you go bat-crazy over people ignoring you. 8) Just a joke: not intended to be taken seriously. What you're describing there is the trappings that make cyberpunk "cyber", not "punk". Cyber is the flavour, punk is the style of story. That's been my point all along. Obviously Eberron isn't cyberpunk (no Internet) and it isn't steampunk (no steam). I'm arguing it's not "punk". At least, the setting isn't *designed* to be punk, and if you can tell "magipunk" stories in it that doesn't prove anything any more than the fact that you can tell boy-meets-girl romance stories in it.
CTHUHLU_THE_GROOVY 06-18-07, 02:51 PM	I haven't read all of this thread, o this might not apply at present, but I feel that I may be able to contribute. Eberron is not steampunk, for reasons of tone and mood as opposed to technology, as well as for the historical period it resembles. Simply put, eberron is the aftermath of world war one, and everything from that era has a place. The themes are ambiguity, the potential evil and destructive capacity of humanity (or demihumanity), of a changing world. In that capacity, Eberron (while still a fantasy) is far more of a noir (for city based games and most intrigue based games) or a pulp adventure than a steampunk type of game. To be simple, the technological magic exists to support these game types, whereas steampunk (no offense) falls more into the realm of "look, a robot made of clockwork" or " hydraulic computers", normally modern devices (or futuristic devices) converted into steampunk. The devices in Eberron are more a conversion of "pulp science" (gamma-photon-nega-beams!) to fantasy than anything else. Beyond that, I think that most posters are only examining Sharn and similar cities, along with lighting rails and airships. Eberron is an innovative fantasy, more in the vein of modern fantasy novels than D&D's normal inspiration, but still undeniably a fairly classic fantasy, save for the aformentioned locations and devices. Take them out, and you have a normal fantasy world, perhaps in the vein of the black company (or whatever, I can't thinkof an example right now) as opposed to the lord of the rings. The presense of these elements does not change the natrure of the world.
JohnnyArkham 06-14-08, 11:28 PM	It seems so simple to me, that the rancor demonstrated by folks like OneWinged4ngel really blows my mind. Eberron, as a setting, lends itself to Steampunk themes quite readily; moreso perhaps than any other published WotC DnD setting. However, there's no doubt in my mind that Eberron is not intended to be a Steampunk setting. Steampunk is not so easily defined as the aforementioned hostile poster seems to indicate. Matter o' fact, to many die-hard Steamers, it has NOTHING to do with steam itself. To others, that's the core of the thing. It's why I, personally, identify with the movement/culture/subculture/fthagn that is Steampunk. No need to get hostile or insulting about it.
Mystrich 06-15-08, 09:47 AM	I dunno why it's taken 5 pages to say this, but the answer is just Eberron does not have steam, or does not use it for energy, therefore, is not steampunk Magic-punk, or Wide-Magic is a better fit.
Snarky_Monkey 06-15-08, 10:00 AM	Semantics aside, there is an obvious correlation to both settings. This isn't an insult to Eberron, just recognition of how the two things are very similar in effect, if not method. Intensity is wonderful, but it has to be balanced with reason else things on our boards could degrade to match those in the "outside world" so to speak. And who of us really wants that? ;)
The Ubbergeek 06-15-08, 11:44 AM	I dunno why it's taken 5 pages to say this, but the answer is just Eberron does not have steam, or does not use it for energy, therefore, is not steampunk Magic-punk, or Wide-Magic is a better fit. Dungeonpunk? ;)
Arcane Guyver 06-15-08, 12:41 PM	By all definitions I can find, you need steam to be genuinely "steampunk." Steam (because the usage of it as a power source) punk (rebellious attitude by the authors to use such a power source to create technology that should be beyond the time period). Looking at various examples of "steampunk," I don't see a general attitude or plight of the characters the same way "cyberpunk" does. The big problem here is that Eberron just utilized an established resource (magic) in fairly logical ways; for the longest time, logical implementation of magic in D&D was rare, since everyone seemed to think D&D is medieval era with magic tacked on. So, maybe we are being a bit punkish by bringing in higher-level magitech into D&D. I'd rather think it's a logical progression of world design.
Hanzo187 06-15-08, 10:20 PM	I hope no one minds if I add my two cents. By all definitions I can find, you need steam to be genuinely "steampunk." It certainly seems that way to me, too. Now personally, I've always defined steampunk as a Victorian/Renaissance (perhaps medieval)-style world with pieces of technology far ahead of their time. In this case, these machines were powered by steam. Now, that did not mean magic didn't exist, but the explanations for the technological advances were scientific, not magical. As people have stated, Eberron is not steampunk, and I concur. There were advances, but it came about more from magic than science. IMO, a decent example of steampunk would be the Thief games. There are no guns, but it's a medieval world filled with machines, boilers, forges, and cogs, none of which are powered by magic. There was some magic in the games, but none of it was tied to machines. As the games themselves said, magic and science had an uneasy co-existance.
Vonether 06-16-08, 02:06 PM	Honestly, just the argument of What exactly is steampunk and what isn't has been argued in longer threads than these, never mind using it to describe a certain setting. Unfortunetly, the only time I've seen Eberron called "steampunk" is when someone wants to demonstrate why they don't like the setting. i.e. I don't like that Eberron setting because I shudder of the thought of my players having steampunk robots as PCs. To sum up for some people, anything anachronistic in their fantasy, such as psionics, flying airships or newspapers is icky steampunk.
Darkwolf71 06-16-08, 05:42 PM	Allow me to address the topic by using a different example. Is Firefly a Western or Space Science Fiction? Let's break down the elements. Sci fi: Firefly has space ships, robots (the guys with the blue hands were robots/cyborgs, ergo why they wern't effected by the little sonic "make your brain leak out your nose" thing), psionics, evil mutant psycho guys, space stations, battles/action in space itself (in space suits, no less). Western: Cowboy speech patterns (at least with Mal), desert-like land areas, horseback riding, ballistic guns in holsters, duels, the "Leave me alone and let me do my thing" attitude, bandits/highway robbers, lawlessness, and at least in one episode it had cowboy hats. So, one could make the argument that it's: 1) Sci Fi 2) Western 3) Both 4) Neither (one cancels out the other). I think any one of the above are valid stances. Ultimately it's up to the individual's interpretation. But Firefly is an exeption to the entire argument. Joss Whedon was intentionally bending genres. It is best described (IMO) as a 'Western, set in space'.
Lord Karsus 06-16-08, 05:58 PM	No, it was an argument made by Spiderman in a book I read recently (http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.amazon.com/Marvel-1602-Neil-Gaiman/dp/0785110739/ref%3Dsr_1_30/105-6542309-5971616%3Fie%3DUTF8%26s%3Dbooks%26qid%3D 1181342028%26sr%3D8-30). He was proposing that mutants have always existed, but occured so infrequently because mankind had such a small population (1 in 100,000 is far rarer when there aren't that many million people on the planet). And to explain how they showed up in history, he theorized that they were seen as monsters/wizards, hunted down and dispatched, rather than allowed to repopulate. Or they could have been heros of legend (Hercules, Beowolf). -This concept has been in Marvel-616 long before the Marvel 1602 stuff. Selene and Apocalypse both predate the Middle Ages by some time, and both believe themselves (but aren't fully convinced) that they were the first mutants.
Snarky_Monkey 06-17-08, 01:10 AM	Honestly, just the argument of What exactly is steampunk and what isn't has been argued in longer threads than these, never mind using it to describe a certain setting. Unfortunetly, the only time I've seen Eberron called "steampunk" is when someone wants to demonstrate why they don't like the setting. i.e. I don't like that Eberron setting because I shudder of the thought of my players having steampunk robots as PCs. To sum up for some people, anything anachronistic in their fantasy, such as psionics, flying airships or newspapers is icky steampunk. Sadly that is the way I have seen it compared as well, and it's usually the fire that incites debates that eventually degrade to personal attacks and foolishness. I personally enjoy the analogy of Eberron and Steampunk, it's how it's always felt to me. Now I am not speaking of any specific movies, books, anime or what have you, I just mean the concept of the setting. Alternate version of technology set in a victorian type era, to me that sounds like Eberron as well as a pretty cool thing. :D
Manyfist 06-17-08, 01:01 PM	I could see Eberron evolving from a renaissance world to a Victorian esque world in a few short centuries (In Eberron's time line). However I wouldn't call it Steampunk, but more in the lines of Magopunk or Pulp Fiction take your pick they basically describe Eberron either way. In Eberron they have magic to do their biding, and raw elements to move their vehicles in much the same way Steam does in Steampunk. So why would they ever need to build steam engines when binding raw elements does a much better job?
Trannic 06-20-08, 12:31 AM	I tell you, this has been one of the more entertaining threads to read. Now, having read through about 90% of the posts, and the arguements used to justify saying that Eberron is steampunk, which I, myself, don't believe, I could argue that my hotwater tank in my house is steampunk. It has hot water that has steam rise off of it and my children, who occasionally act like punks walk by the room where the tank is, nut does that make my hotwater tank Steampunk? No, it doesn't. Nor does saying Eberron has some themes in that are similar to steampunk make Eberron steampunk. As Hellcow said, Eberron is the world where, when faced with the choice, the "scientists"used magic to make their "technology" rather than mechanical methods. And using the arguement that there are cogs and gears in Eberron makes it steampunk is like saying the ancient Roman empire was steampunk because they had gears and cogs. It's such a basic technology that one can't help but use it.
JohnnyArkham 06-20-08, 08:11 AM	I wasn't going to add *ahem* coal to this fire...but it keeps burning anyway so *shrug* Did you know that many Steampunk enthusiasts don't give a Tesla Coil whether there's any steam technology in their chosen genre? Just like, believe it or not, books can be written about events in the Iron Age w/out dwelling on the use of Iron as a tool. For many of us, steam is a word which brings to mind an era. It has so very much to do with a mythical Victorian age, and so little to do with the tech of the day. For other Steamers, it's the opposite. It's the appeal of the DIY attitude, blended with an adoration of gears and steam. For others, it's all about the aestethics and the 'mindset' of our (again MYTHICAL) Victorian imaginings. For these folks it's the lingo, the top hats, the gowns, the brass, the beautiful machines and rebellious, yet morally straight, individuals. Still others embrace the MYTH even more tightly, for these folks it's the airships, the never-ending Empire, the opium dens, investigators, photographed faeries, occult battles on smog-filled London streets... We fill a lot of niches and argue constantly about the nomenclature we've all seemingly accepted. We love it while we all disagree on exactly what it means. Yet we smile the whole time because the very disagreement jives so nicely with the 'punk in our Steampunk. I'm a Steampunk. I fit neatly into...ALL of the above categories, depending on the time of day, and how my muse strikes me that particular moment (feisty muse I've got). For me, there are as many answers as to what Steampunk IS as there are answers to the 'right way' to play DnD. And that makes me very, very happy. Mr. Arkham
fodigg 06-25-08, 05:45 PM	Interesting discussion. I'm sorry I'm coming into it late. I would say that Eberron is not steampunk in any way other than some art which mirrors steampunk style. There is no "steam" or "clockwork" technology, it's all "magitech". More importantly, none of the dystopian/dying earth style themes a person traditionally finds in cyberpunk or steampunk is present in the setting. I think it's far more accurate to say it's "pulp". Star wars is more "steampunk" than Eberron. (Though I would just go ahead and call it "cyberpunk", and even then it'd be more of a "space-western/fantasy" god I'm so bored.)
plirr 06-25-08, 06:16 PM	I'll go ahead and chime in here. What defines a "-punk" setting? I would say it's the application of technology in world changing ways. In this case, Eberron is magic-punk. One of the defining features of Eberron is that magic specifically is dramatically changing the world due to recent advances in applied theory (technology, if you will). The lightning rail, the warforged, elemental vessels are all prime examples. I would say that there are cultural sides to what make a -punk setting, but magic-punk doesn't draw from any real world parallels or true extrapolations, so it can't assume the same cultural tie-ins that say cyberpunk or steampunk can. I would say steampunk could exist just fine without victorian cultural contexts and cyberpunk could exist just fine without overwhelming corporate dominance, but they don't usually they give a framework for the story being told.
fodigg 06-25-08, 06:17 PM	Not just "world changing", but in a way that dehumanizes the populace. That's what "-punk" is.
mhacdebhandia 06-26-08, 01:21 AM	Why are we responding to a year-old argument? :P
igotsmeakabob!! 06-26-08, 11:01 AM	Because its a good argument! Nah, but it is a volatile one.. people can feel strongly one way or the other... not that that really separates it from any other forum arguments..
FFTARoxorz05 06-26-08, 11:43 PM	There shouldn't even be an argument. Steampunk requires steam. Is Eberron not steampunk because it involves magic instead? OBVIOUSLY! Its a fantasy world, not a hyper-evolved victorian world like steampunk is.
JohnnyArkham 06-27-08, 08:39 AM	Fer Pete's sake...Steampunk doesn't require steam any more than a game of Dungeons and Dragons requires either a Dungeon or a Dragon. It's a creative genre...a mindset...a fashion choice...and several other things besides. Feh. I'm out. This is an argument based on opinions about things which have no concrete and universal definition. Pointless.
fodigg 06-27-08, 11:29 AM	Wow. And this has to be an "argument" and not a friendly discussion? Why? --- I hold my interpretation because I feel that "cyberpunk" or "steampunk" is defined by the themes more than the form. That's why you can have a movie like 5th Element which is in every way the "form" of cyberpunk, but it's a sci-fi action movie. It's a part of the "post-cyberpunk" movement, which just means that cyberpunk was used as one of many influences and not the goal. (Star Trek has become very "post-cyberpunk". You could really see it when the Borg were introduced. A blending of horror, traditional "technology is good and hopeful" sci fi, and "technology will cut off your arms and make you a monster" cyberpunk.) Steampunk is just cyberpunk in a victorian setting, where the "dehumanizing" aspects of technology are impacting a pre-industrial age that had advanced tech thrust upon it. The steam and clockwork machines are just artistic interpretations. --- In fact, there are some very interesting "steampunkish" elements to Lord of the Rings. Tolkein's ideal is the agricultural Shire and Sauron/Sarumon are the tree-killing industrialists. And Aragorn is the noble king of the old ways who was purified by spending years in the wilderness away from "urban rot". The themes are there without the form.