Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrustHalo 03-05-07, 01:58 AM	I know that the idea behind Eberron was originally intented to be an MMORPG and thinking about it in that genre's context--it would be perfect. DDO didnt capture this great world as well as it could have. Its quasi-fantasy, modern setting could attract gamers of all preferences. The context of The Last War provides an excellent backstory and motivation for the characters The Artificer skills, and the fact the Eberron is a 'magical' world with a surplus of magical items, artifacts and magewrights could be the basis for a fun, in-depth crafting system. Excellent transportation options: Skyship, Lightning Rail, Portal. A diverse and large realm (Khorvaire), with the possibility for great capital cities and small frontier outposts. Portals to other planes, could easily be developed as instanced dungeons. Xen'drik, Sarlona and Argonnessen would be excellent as higher lvl content in the initial game, or to released as playable continents in later updates/expansions. Ebberon's factions: The Aurum, Chamber, Blood of Vol, Gatekeepers, Dreaming Dark etc. could form the basis of a complex rep. system in which characters could find themselves immersed or at odds with one of these instituions. The different Houses could have additional quests/benefits/drawbacks associated with them, making for a customized backstory and fun character development. Standing within various factions or Houses, could lead to rewards such as player housing--which is often very much desired by MMORPG gamers. The most important thing is that Eberron Online would not have to be slave to traditional notions of Dungeons and Dragons. While maintaing the same basic classes/races it could offer a completely fresh approach. PvP is the only feature I cannot think of offhand how they could implement. I know alot of people have delusions of grandeur and think they could make a popular, successful MMORPG but it is amazing to me that no real attempt has been made to fully implement this world. This is just an idea I was throwing out there, until Eberron Online is made I'll just have to continue living out its adventures on paper. Open to all responses.
The_Robot 03-05-07, 02:13 AM	I pretty much hate MMORPGs...but i'd probably play an Eberron based one. If only to see a rendered Sharn!
SSj3goblin 03-05-07, 09:40 AM	Eberron was never intended as a MMORPG.
Kid SixXx 03-05-07, 09:45 AM	Eberron needs its epic top-scrolling RPG (Balder's Gate!) and it needs to be on my computer yesterday.
Njord 03-05-07, 09:55 AM	Yeah I am still waiting for something like "Rekkenmark Nights" with a great single player and toolset.
CrustHalo 03-05-07, 12:50 PM	I thought that many of Baker's ideas stemmed from an MMORPG he worked on for VR-1 called Lost Continents. Once production folded he used these ideas to enter 'the discover the setting contest.'
DyloniusFunk 03-05-07, 03:22 PM	I think of all the setitngs out there, Eberron is the most suitable for translation to an MMO enviorment. 1.No progression of the time line. Eberron is a setting that won't have a mov9ing time line, unlike Forgotten Realms. So you can have anything happene but it's still the same year. Essentially you have a static world very simialr to World Of Warcraft. How many times, as an example, has Onyxia been killed? How many times has someone brought Rends Head to Thrall? yet they still survive and there's no indication that time ever moves. 2.A wide variety of challanges, for solo, grouping and raids. There's a huige variety of challenge in Eberron. You could run solo adventures in Breland, helping hunt down bandits or rebuilding a village devastated by the War. As you get more powerful you take on larger challenges like a Lord Of Dust or Dragon Below group causing havoc. finally at max level your ready to take on the big boys,. or half dragon lich girls as the case may be. And there are plenty of places that are perfect to be their own instances. 3. Factions Galore! Like it or not, the faction system in WoW is one of the best ways to gain good gear. And there are lots of different groups for players to support or oppose. And to make it even better, once you side with one group, you can't gain rep with others. For example if you make a character based in Karnath, you can gain rep with the country as a whole or the Rekenmark for example. But you can't be serious if you think you're just gonna walk into Thrane and start working for them after hitting exalted the King Kaius. Plus there are lots of other groups like the Aurum, the D-Marked houses, nobles, etc.
Kinger 03-05-07, 04:44 PM	While I think it would be great to roam about Khorvaire or have Featherfall races in Sharn, I disagree with the idea that Eberron is "static." It's only static when it comes to released documentation. The intention, as I understand, is to provide DMs and PCs the opportunity to shape the world themselves rather than do busywork (go kill 15 boars!) while the world-shaping is done beyond their sight and reach. That's why I'd agree that a story-driven RPG (single-player or coop-ish) akin to Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights would be preferable to an MMO. There'd be a richer story, more chance to actually impact said richer story, and the opportunity to have goals more interesting than killing boars to make sausages or standing in front of an anvil for four hours making daggers. Having said all that, I still enjoyed DDO. My main problems with it were the same ones I have with MMO's in general (like the inability to alter the world in any way).
Ryuu_Tenshi 03-05-07, 05:00 PM	Why not break the mold of the average MMO and create an MMO that encourages a rich storyline and immersive gameplay? I think Eberron would be perfectly adapted to this: a kind of meld of sim-games where you create a "character" and have them live out their life with "mmo" games where you go about killing things. possibly in the face. I mean... if you got people to actually behave in character in an MMO, rather than just going around ganking stuff, you could have a genuinely unique game. I mean... I'd love to be in an MMO where I actually play a member of the Trust and actually go on spy missions for them against other players, where I have to maintain a cover and enusre that they do not find out who I am. The problem with this I think is that it'd require LOTS of people acting as DM characters, people who exist to drive the plot. Then again, what a job!
HxHunter 03-05-07, 05:04 PM	Phantasy Star games (PSO and PSU) are more MMORPG than DDO. The game was designed to be an online dungeon crawl. It wasn't succesful in the intent of attracting WoW players. Also, it only had Warforged. It was missing a lot of Eberron. Heck, it didn't had any gnomes!
CrustHalo 03-05-07, 05:32 PM	An Eberron 'Neverwinter Nights', with excellent module support, would also be great. A single-player, module based RPG would also allow for more complex campaigns, quests, motivations and the ability to impact the world (as has been pointed out above). Still I would love to see an MMORPG, since they have bigger budgets, more anticipation, and could hopefully draw more people into the D&D genre.
Splendide 03-05-07, 06:06 PM	I think an Eberron MMO would be good, but it would need to depart almost entirely from the d20 system.
HxHunter 03-05-07, 09:24 PM	Just add psionics and Tashalatora. Big bucks!
The_Robot 03-06-07, 06:58 PM	Why not break the mold of the average MMO and create an MMO that encourages a rich storyline and immersive gameplay? I think Eberron would be perfectly adapted to this: a kind of meld of sim-games where you create a "character" and have them live out their life with "mmo" games where you go about killing things. possibly in the face. I mean... if you got people to actually behave in character in an MMO, rather than just going around ganking stuff, you could have a genuinely unique game. I mean... I'd love to be in an MMO where I actually play a member of the Trust and actually go on spy missions for them against other players, where I have to maintain a cover and enusre that they do not find out who I am. The problem with this I think is that it'd require LOTS of people acting as DM characters, people who exist to drive the plot. Then again, what a job! if that happened, i'd be all over MMO style gameplay in a minute! the problem with it as far as i see is mainly one of upkeep. the DM players you are talking about could be done "played" by company code writers (in this case Wizards and whoever the producer of the game is). NPCs in game controlled by an AI designed by the company are spread throughout the world (and changing every so often to give you new challenges) for people to interact with, the server your character is located on could keep track of what you have done so you can't do the same thing twice (thus forwarding mini-stories of your own, and allowing you access to high-level challenges). for instance, when you first start and visit Morgrave University, the provost character who hires you to go on a high-level mission to Xen'drik or the depths of Sharn just won't talk to you (or say something like, "come back when you are someone worth knowing, swine"), but the 20th level Shifter Ranger walking up there ahead of you talking to him, just took the mission. as far as a affiliations system, i would think exactly like WoW but also a more advanced system like there is in games like Mercenaris. you can help certain affiliations out wich will help your standing with them, but might hurt your standing with another affiliation (helping the silver flame would destroy your relationship with the emerald claw for instance, or helping Thuranni might hurt your chances with Phiarlan). help them enough, you can join and then gain access to more story-forwarding missions or quests, but also gain access to new items or feats. honestly, i don't think ideas like this would be too difficult to do, or really that far off in the future either... and yes, Eberron would be THE PERFECT setting for something like this!
Kaodi 03-06-07, 10:51 PM	Eberron does not need another MMO. Eberron does not need its own version of Neverwinter Nights (this would be better served as an official expansion that added Eberron content than a whole new game, because half the work is already done). What Eberron needs is a really awesome open-ended single player RPG with multiple starting points, at least half a dozen alternate endings, and the ability (but not the requirement) to create a starting party of perhaps three characters which you can define the relationships of (for instance, A is the brother of B, and C is Bs friendly rival, or A and B are long time friends and C is a new face in town, etc, etc, etc... In other words, a massive single player role playing game. All the freedom of an MMO combined with all the structure of a single player game. If that basically describes what the Baldur's Gate of Eberron would be like, then add my vote to Kid SixXx'.
Yadot 03-06-07, 11:33 PM	Or as Will Wright put it, a massive single player game in which content from other games is added asynchronously to your own game. A base storyline would be provided with may different paths and endings that would be procedurally generated. It could begin in various areas of the world depending on your avatars background and relations to your created party members. With added expansions to bring new locations, enemies, spells, and classes this could definatively bring about a new era of DnD computer games.
jonci 03-07-07, 12:16 AM	Well NWN2 does have an Eberron mod project going on. I haven't checked in on the site in awhile, so I don't know how far they had progressed. I believe Warforged was on top of the list when I last checked. Personally, I'd probably wait for that mod before buying NWN2. Nothing against Forgotten Realms, I just don't know it and greatly enjoy Eberron.
Kid SixXx 03-07-07, 06:46 AM	Phantasy Star games (PSO and PSU) are more MMORPG than DDO. Oooooo. I lost soooo many hours of my life playing Phantasy Star on the Sega Genesis. There's an RPG I'd like to see on my XBox360.
Setherial 03-07-07, 07:06 AM	The only Eberron style game I'd ever be intersted in is one like the Bladurs Gate/IceWind Dale series. Those were games. MMORPGs are for kids and morons with too much time on their hands. It's not about roleplay it's about completing quest after quest of sensless generic repetitive crap just so you can level. I really don't get it. I tried World of Warcraft, I tried GuildWars, they are all crap. no offense intended towards players it's just an opinion
bookwurmneo 03-07-07, 02:20 PM	I like some of MMORPGs out, but I don't think a good D&D, especially an Eberron, experience can be offered thru a MMORPG. You dont have an easy time roleplaying and it's hard offer some of the more important aspects of D&D, no only in story depth but also mechanics meeting ease of play. I think that if Eberron wanted to become a viable franchise on the console/PC front, they should release a couple of different RPGs. The first two, would on some level be the easiest being based on other D&D games that have been released or being developed. The NWN2 expansion is the most obvious one, in my mind it should be more like Planescape: Torment in scale and focus on the noir elements of the setting, and i would love to have it set entirely in Sharn. The second game would build on attempts of the D&D tactics game being developed, it would be a SRPG that would blend the styles of Final Fantasy Tactics and the Shining Force series for th Sega Genesis and Saturn. The Third and Final would be the epic game in the vein of Fallout and Arcanum, were the players are set in the five nations are able to do as they please.
Vharuck 03-07-07, 02:47 PM	To be a good D&D MMO, it'd have to live up to pencil-and-paper D&D's roleplaying fun. To do that, I think the MMO would need a more dynamic world than most current MMO's allow. However, a dynamic world on the large scale is hard to create, because not only do MMOs need replay value (otherwise they'd have a revolving customer base, which I don't think would work well, especially since the newest players find a world with no problems left to overcome) but, due to the playerbase's size, the MMO would need mutliple different worlds to prevent one world becoming overcrowded and performing poorly. If these worlds are dynamic (that is, players' actions have a noticable and lasting impact), you end up with multiple worlds that after some time are unique from one another. This sounds great, but is a hassle when trying to introduce new content intended for everyone. The new content may contradict one world's current situation. To disagree with myself, though, this was the case with Ultima Online. Each "shard" (an individual world) had it's own feel, and certain events took place only on certain shards. Then again, UO wasn't known for plentiful content being constantly introduced. I think that the issue of a dynamic world could be solved by using an advanced AI program that allows NPCs to better interact with individual players and (gasp!) actually interact to non-predetermined NPCs. Also, adding options that may even be purely aesthetic would allow players to feel more connection with their characters and their world (ex. player housing, decorative clothing and accessories, etc). However, I think D&D's roleplaying atmosphere would be better served by maintaining a purposefully small customer group, so that a team dedicated to creating custom content and maybe even a team dedicated to allowing worlds to react to players wouldn't be a financial impossibility.
Errant 03-08-07, 04:39 AM	Eberron needs its epic top-scrolling RPG (Balder's Gate!) and it needs to be on my computer yesterday. Ditto!
Splendide 03-08-07, 05:01 AM	I'd just like to add that the topic of this thread annoys me every time I see it. Eberron hasn't even had one shot at an MMORPG, as any game where you don't have gnomes isn't Eberron.
Edymnion 03-08-07, 08:29 AM	Actually, there is already a fan effort to make a NWN2 Eberron mod (started as a NWN1 mod, if memory serves). Btw, if whoever was doing that that was on the boards is reading this, shoot me a PM. I got an email that I think may have been from your group, but it was so vague and didn't say anything about any topics I recognized, I had to junk it as being spam. I'm still interested in helping, but you're going to have to send me a personalized invite that says "This is the Eberron project you volunteered to help with", and not some random "Company X wants to recruit you!" type email.
Elemental_Elf 03-09-07, 01:44 PM	They need to make an Elder Scrolls like game for Eberron. Eberron isn't about going from point X to city Y and do Z. Its about Going to point X then wandering around sharn doing some odd jobs, then hopping onto a Lyrandar Airship and heading to city Y, wandering around its country side for a while helping a small village kill off a rat infestation then doing Z. Eberron is anything but linear. Thus Eberron should not be an MMO.
mhacdebhandia 03-10-07, 12:05 AM	Keith Baker works for a computer game company called NetDevil, which recently announced that they've licensed the LEGO brand for a forthcoming MMO - LEGO Eberron, I demand it!
Ryuu_Tenshi 03-10-07, 04:04 PM	Keith Baker works for a computer game company called NetDevil, which recently announced that they've licensed the LEGO brand for a forthcoming MMO - LEGO Eberron, I demand it! ... HOLY CRAP I WANT. ... Actually, my brother is an insane lego fanatic (he tried to build Castle Ravenloft once; had to stop 'cause it was just too big XD ) So if anyone wants to suggest something like that... we could see what we could do. ;) (need pix tho and nothing TOO giant. we ain't makin sharn for you, kewl as that would be) ... Ok back to MMO discussion. ... WHAT ABOUT LEGO EBERRON THE MMO IT COULD BE LIKE LEGO STAR WARS BUT BETTER *shot*
Kinger 03-11-07, 12:02 PM	They need to make an Elder Scrolls like game for Eberron. Eberron isn't about going from point X to city Y and do Z. Its about Going to point X then wandering around sharn doing some odd jobs, then hopping onto a Lyrandar Airship and heading to city Y, wandering around its country side for a while helping a small village kill off a rat infestation then doing Z. Eberron is anything but linear. Thus Eberron should not be an MMO. I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with all the points you just mentioned. What you describe is actually much like an MMO gameplay experience. It isn't linear. There isn't much in the way of story progression, funnelling a player towards a conclusion. If you don't want to finish a quest, there's no "game over, you lose" ending, you just don't finish it. Instead, you wander away to another village to kill rats. To me, Eberron works very well when it's linear (or, at least, the games are). I see Eberron quests not as opportunistic "Hey, my basement's full of rats!"-type affairs like you'd experience in an MMO, but rather a series of connected events that end with a dramatic conclusion. Save the world, escape the hell-hole, rescue the hostage, whatever. At their most basic, I see quests as seeking out the player, not the other way around. Few of my Eberron quests involve the PCs walking up to an NPC with an exclamation mark floating over his head. Sure, that implies a bit of rail-roady-ness, but that's only a bad thing if it defies the character of the PCs in the first place. So, I'll finish off with "Eberron is not best represented by an MMO because it works so well as a linear experience."
Logos7 03-11-07, 12:53 PM	I'd love to see it! Also I'd love them to do the guild war thing and make the base level 20,s (Just like in DnD, and then a custom set of Epic Rules for Eberron ( Not quite as nutty as what epic 3.5 is but close) Somewhat like elite skills but kewler. Then we can have a secret cold war of epic characters fighting it out but having to keep their existance secret lest the dragons cast Mordinkineans Magnificant Mookular Missle, and take it back to stage 1
cancerousmango 03-13-07, 12:45 AM	Yeah, Baldur's Gate, Arcanum, Fallout. Those were the real RPG's. I would love to see something in that hand-painted backgrounds + sprits idiom with Eberron. Those games are what really got me involved, not Dungeon Seige 2.
Kaodi 06-16-07, 12:45 PM	B-bump! I don't know about the rest of you, but for me, the urge to play a great Eberron CRPG does not go away!
Toloran 06-16-07, 01:08 PM	Keith Baker works for a computer game company called NetDevil, which recently announced that they've licensed the LEGO brand for a forthcoming MMO - LEGO Eberron, I demand it! Hmm... I think we should all invade the Lego Game and build ourselves Sharn out of Lego.
Kaodi 06-16-07, 03:45 PM	Yeah, that would be pretty crazy if you can actually build the world. Of course, our villain would have to be the Daelkyr Lord of Blocks, hehehe...
Kaodi 06-16-07, 09:24 PM	I was thinking today that the hardest thing to translate into a good Eberron CRPG would be action points. To craft a system that would allow you to use them in a tabletop game would be infinitely cumbersome, at least on casual examination. Also, given the somewhat anti-heroic ability save and load, that they would not really have the desired effect in any case. So, I thought perhaps that they could be used in a different fashion, to automatically allow you to do special actions at specific points in the game that could not be seamlessly emulated with a game engine. If you have ever played Riviera: The Promised Land, think of how they used their action points to allow you to unlock special things along your path. In an Eberron CRPG, they would be a significant departure from what they do in that game, being perhaps more action oriented, but they would still allow you to unlock different things, either opening up a area, activating a special sequence, or even allowing you to finish off the villains in particularly spectacular fashion. So, they would add a bit to the replayability of the game, since you would never have enough to do *everything*. Also, they probably would be somehow tied to the things that they are normally used for, having skill, attack or ability requirements to have the option of doing something crazy.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 09:19 AM	I dont like most MMORPGs. The other players ruin it for me usually. I dislike grinding, having to fight over gear and deal with people who ethier don't roleplay or roleplay poorly. I would rather see a single player Eberron game with NPCs who join your party who have their own personalities and storylines. I loved that in Baldur's Gate and especially Planescape Torment. I found myself wanting to know more about the NPCs and caring about them. In a game where I just make my entire party it gets boring because they have no real personalities. So my vote is for a single player game with NPC party members. Hmm maybe like how it was in NWN 2 with influence? Or like KoToR 1 and 2? With how you could influence your party members and even drive them towards the light side or the dark side? I too have heard of NWN 2 Eberron mod but I belive it's dead. I've been told it's too hard to do because a lot of the files/graphics and things aren't Eberron looking enough. Making a warforged or a shifter or something is a lot of hard work because their are no models for them already. Someone said Sharn wouldn't work well because there are no models that look like how Sharn would look. But if someone can do it I'd love to see it. I'm tired of FR clones of single player games. It's sad to see like 10 servers all made after Icewind Dale II.
Kalanth 06-18-07, 10:17 AM	A while ago I made this fan video to DDO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cS7FINpY0M I love that game, but I agree that it fell far short of embracing Eberron. Somethings have a very Eberron feel, but most do not. I would rather see a game like NWN using Eberron as the world. Pump out a few good games with Eberron in them first (Dragonshard is not a good game) and then try again with an MMO. DDO was creative, but needs to be more than just a Dungeon crawl.
AkumaDaimyo 06-18-07, 11:25 AM	I do love how every class was actually needed in DDO. I HATE WoW and it's jerks who say "Wah no Rogues, no Hunters,ect." Gee what was the point of me leveling him to level 60 if you jerks won't let me go on Raids? It's so nice to play a game like than and find out your not wanted end game. :rolleyes: I also love laughing in the face of morons who insist on running ahead and set off traps and die. Hillarious. I was waiting for the day they put a trap on a chest because people run like rabid dogs towards them for loot, never EVER thinking there could be a trap on it. It's very obvious which of the DDO people played real D&D and who didn't.
Kaodi 06-18-07, 11:54 AM	Absolutely, I am in favour of a " massive single-player computer role-playing game " . I resurrected this thread because it was the most recent one on the subject that I could remember. Ideally, it would be a game with a living world, where actions can have open-ended instead of limited consequences. I am interested to see Mass Effect for this reason, because they are saying that what ethical path you choose in that game will actually affect the outlook of the entire universe, not just your party mates, and I'd like to see how they do it. Of course, ideal would take forever, and a massive budget with a zillion programmers, so I guess I will not be seeing the logical consequence of killing Bob the Breadmaker in a game any time soon (namely, short term inflation in the price of bread, followed by Barry the Breadmaker from a nearby, smaller village decided to move to the city to pick up the slack, followed by Boris the Apprentice taking over Barry's old shope). So I guess I will just have to stick with a massive world and the usual " you can only kill specific people " mechanics, for now. I think that it would be mucho-coolo if you could have a game world that encompassed an entire nation, that could be seamlessly added onto with expansions. Kind of like taking everything you learned about making MMO expansions and converting it into a MSRPG. So, perhaps you set the initial game in Thrane, and cover all of that region, then move on to Karrnath, then the Mournland, then Breland then Aundair, or something like that. If you could ever actual make that much content. Perhaps it would be more realistic to start with an area in one of the nations and then add expansions to completely flesh it out. Like, start around Starilaskur, and move downwards until the final core Brelish expansion takes on Sharn, and after that move into the former territories, Zilargo and Droaam, then perhaps onto Xen'drik from there. One thing that would be, as far as I know, a total departure from any other role-playing game (in the limited sense), would be to be able to have multiple characters and parties co-exist in a single game world. Starting a new game would be starting a new game world, not starting a new adventure. Kind of like what you do in The Sims, but on a much grander scale. So, two characters might start in different places, with different quests, move around, meet some similar people, perhaps even meet each other and allow you to go on a joint quest which required multiple starting characters, and then part ways to go do their own thing again. To a certain extent, that may seem a little similar to having multiple people play different characters in a MMORPG world... except Silverwing the Disgraced Chamber Agent only dies once, and creates ripples when he does. I suppose in this sense, the game could have multiplayer, but it would be a more personal multiplayer, where you have control over who else was around in your world. Ultimately though, it would be geared towards the enjoyment of a single player, with the multiplayer component being a bonus more than a core-feature. It woudln't be a multiplayer game so much as a multiple single-player game, if that makes any sense.
Kaodi 06-19-07, 05:46 PM	Another thing I was thinking of just now, was taking the stronghold mechanics from NWN 2 and blanketing them across the entire game. Effectively, the idea would be that you could claim and area as you stronghold, as long as you had the gold and troops to hold it. Every area would have a few basic augments you can pay for, though only places that were more developed to begin with could become advanced bases and strongholds.
Kaodi 06-21-07, 11:21 AM	Maybe it is the title of the thread that is off-putting, or maybe I am really the only one who is obsessed with making the perfect D&D CRPG, set in Eberron. Probably has something to do with me not having a group to game with. In any case, I think that the XP system would be modelled on the Witch's Wake module for the original NWN. Though you would get some experience from defeating foes, most of it would come from interacting with the environment and other characters, learning new things. I suppose I should do some more brainstorming on how you could make multi-party campaigns work (well). However, it may be wise to ask if anyone who actually reads this thread would be interested in a game where you had to create multiple characters who travelled independantly of each other, each with there own group of fellows. Like, for instance, the first party works up to around level 6 or 7, and then they reach a cliffhanger, and the story cuts out to focus on a second character. That character has a much shorter initial adventure, but sets the wheels in motion that determine what the first party will be facing. Then, after that, a third party might adventure in the aftermath of the first campaign. Hmmm... perhaps that would not be as interesting as I first thought it would be... I'm still for a kind of faux " persistent world " single-player CRPG. Oblivion was only a baby step compared to what a game like that could be. That gameworld changed only by the players actions, whereas it needs to be changed not only by the player, but independantly of the player.
Demangel 06-27-07, 12:41 AM	I'm personally beginning the opening phases of work creating a module for Neverwinter Nights based as best as possible on the Eberron setting. I've decided to eliminate the ability to play some things as a PC to simplify production and balance (I HAD a working system for three of the new Eberron races - Warforged, Shifter, and Changeling) but decided the system was funky and heavy handed in some areas, and as I'm limited by what the game engine can handle rules wise, I decided to scrap the added races to improve other things eberron. Likewise, at least in NWNI making new classes, and races really requires custom content that is complex to make work. Take the artificer for example, I can't simply script that in, I have to do a serious change in classes in general... And thats hard to do. So... I thought... What makes Eberron What it is? Is it the ability to play a warforged? What about those who don't choose them as their character? Are they playing in the Eberron setting less than others who might be warforged? Or artificers etc? I then consider Action Points... Arguably the most impossible thing to do by the book in NWN... I am still kicking around the idea of creating a special tool that allows the PC to gain a super buff for one round... Say +1d10 to any stat, and things of that nature. Because, I feel, Action points represent a characters ability to do the impossible once in a while to make the story that much more dramatic... Action points are what they are IMHO because they don't break balance by making Pc's all powerful (how many times have you used your AP and found it made no difference whatsoever? Me? Tons...). But rather give them a tiny boost for a second or two to do something cool. It doesn't have to be a d6 to any d20 roll, it can be something that gives other benefits instead, so long as the basic result is similar, short bursts of added potential... In the end, I will likely scrap AP's as well because I feel these too are not what makes Eberron Tick as a setting, and many would find the use of my alternative ideas to be clunky or hard to manage in some way. So what I am I left with? The setting and the stories it can allow me to tell themselves. I can have NPC's play the parts of classes or races the Pc's can't have. Some like warforged and shifters and whatnot I can even allow as henchman as I have more control over their stats, abilities and appearances etc. For the record, I am working in NWN I for the time being... This is both a boon and a bust... The boon is, NWN I is stable, and I have more experience with working with NWN than you can shake a stick at... And one of my specialties just so happens to lie in scripting in things logically that NWN normally doesn't allow, like flying, riding horses etc. Whats more, the community is overflowing with custom content, haks, and monsters... I have even created an Eberron skybox that features all the moons. It's a little busy looking, but I think it looks awesome in every area I have played it in. Link to a screenie of the skybox texture to give you an idea: http://nwvault.ign.com/fms/Image.php?id=79793 Indeed, I have decided that I will make a module based in Eberron, and stick to eberron themes, style and storytelling, and use those devices to make it feel like eberron. I will ask only that players forgive the visual limitations of the engine for not making sharn look quite as dramatic as I'd like, or make all the details look as they would in your minds eye. But like BG, and many other older games, I am a firm believer that there is a niche of gamers for whom graphic luxeries and exactness/perfection is secondary to immersion, ambiance, and story. I can't promise that mine will be the best mod ever made, my story might stink. But I think it's time, time for someone to take a serious stab at it... And it might as well be me. In time I may try to move into putting a mod on NWN II, but I don't think the engine is ready for it, despite the things it has going for it... As NWN is better established and will allow me to include more of the basic themes and content thanks to hak packs like the CEP and systems like C.R.A.P. (classic Role play adaptation project). I hope you all wish me luck that I complete my opening module before 08' :) And no this isn't simply a plug for my work, it's more of an acknowledgment that there are people with the ability to make Eberron (or something that passes for it) out there that are going to make a stab at it, even if it's not professional in quality, it will be something, and may help get the word out and the ball rolling for even more talented people to do better. Thanks and good night.
taski 06-27-07, 04:33 AM	I think Eberron could make a fine MUD. There already is a thriving Darksun MUD (http://www.armageddon.org/), which has a quality and quantity of roleplay far above any MMORPG I've seen or heard of. Graphical MMORPGs may be pulling a lot of MUD players away from the plain text medium, but MUDs aren't really dead yet.
Yakman 06-27-07, 11:12 AM	Phantasy Star games (PSO and PSU) are more MMORPG than DDO. The game was designed to be an online dungeon crawl. It wasn't succesful in the intent of attracting WoW players. Also, it only had Warforged. It was missing a lot of Eberron. Heck, it didn't had any gnomes! oh, no! not the gnomes! that's a deal breaker! i gotta have my gnomes! :rolleye2:
Lanodantheon 06-27-07, 10:47 PM	The following is my personal opinion of what I would want in an MMO or CRPG of Eberron. My opinions do not reflect every play style and will not appeal to everyone. The design ideas I have are not perfect, they're just the thoughts on the top of my head. It is my personal opinion that Eberron does need another shot at an MMO and a shot at a CRPG. However, the most that I want from game companies is more content, lots more content. I also hate the grind of most MMORG's. I hate having to do the same kind of things over and over for the sake of leveling and never being able to participate in the game's story. I also despise most MO designs that force me to start my adventure's career by killing bunnies. That's the primary reason I can't play FFXI, which forces you to start back at 1 everytime you get a new job. I want my game to start with a bang, to be like everyother part of the MMO. My ideads for a better Eberron MMO: 1.Sharn Specials, Dynamic Quests: When I play Eberron I want to be able to not know what's around the next corner. I want the Sharn Special, a BODY to fall out of the sky and if I inspect it, I want an adventure to start. I want to walk into an inn and have an NPC at the bar who is randomly generated who will get drunk and eventually start a fight with the other people. I want something more than the now standardized formula of quest NPC's who are either marked clearly with Exclamation points (Breaking Immersion) or are buried in cities where you have to talk to everybody to get something to do(FFXI). Although WoW clearly marks it's NPC's, I want the opportunity for unique experiences and a sense of uncertainty. I'm not saying do away with quest NPC's, just have the regular unexpected adventure seeds happen right in front of you. 2. Patrons: In Eberron, I should not have to be like every other MMO and have to run all around town to get work. I should have a patron and be able to get quests and rewards from that patron just like a full time job. Moreso than just a simple Quest NPC, a patron should greatly influence your character's adventures. I want to be able to call Merrix d'Cannith my patron and get quests from him because he is who I'm loyal to. 3.Down with the Silent Protagonists! Life paths and Allegiances: The Last War is a big part of Eberron. Unfortuantely, every MMO I've seen defines you in the game world by your race, sex and class and nothing more. As far as the game is concerned, you did not exist in the world of the game before that moment because you really didn't. Half of the fun I have in an Eberron game is creating and interacting with character backstory. In an MMO like Eberron, I don't want to start play as Balthus, a generic wizard model who is going into the newbie zone with the same starting gear everyone starts with. I want to start an Eberron MMO as Balthus, Veteran of The Last War and captain of the Metrol Irregulars, a Cyran militia group. I want to be able to know that before I started this game, this character was real in this fantasy world. More than that, I want my choice of backstory and alliances to determine my reputations and quest choices. I want to go to Sharn and have the shop Owners in one district treat me like dirt because I'm a Mourner and go to Tavick's Landing and get treated fairly by other Cyrans for the very same reason. WHen my reputation with Phiarlin goes up, I want Thuranni rep to go down because the 2 factions are at war with each other. I would also like an backstory quest chain. I would love to play the Fighter who is a disgraced warrior trying to get his honor back. In an unlikely scenario if I had my way, I would even have you live your life path as a sort of instanced newbie zone. Imagine if you chose The Front lines of the Last War as your life path and your first adventure right out the gate was to live that experience. Your newbie zone is an Eberrionian D-Day campaign from the deck of an airship with Violence everywhere and Fireballs exploding all around you. And, that's just your first level or so. 4. Cause & Effect: I want my actions to matter. When I kill some bad guy at the end of a quest chain, I want the Korranberg Chronicle to publish an article about me a few days afterward. I want to go to a new area and have everyone now my name, not because a computer says I do, but because the people there read the Korranberg Chronicle and interpreted it to their liking. 5. Riding the Red Line: Many quests are good in all, but I would much rather have bigger quests sometimes. I have a short attention span, so the last thing I want to do is kill bunnies to get to the next level. I want quests that don't just have me go to another part of the zone into an instance. I want quests that put me on a romp from one side of Khorvaire to the next with who knows how many quests along the way. I also would love chases. I want to be able to engage in a foot chase along the streets of a zone to catch a villain. For a CRPG, I'd recommend something like KOTOR. The option I'd add is the ability to employ stunts. THese would be choices that can be made that reflect those choice beyond a mere, "Attack" "Retreat" I want to jump into flying traffic, grab a flying disk and get into a chase. I want to be able to drop a grease spell and knock the bad guys down the stairs. I want the ability to get into situations that make the game feel like it's really action packed and unexpected. One option for an Eberron CRPG could be that the RPG has multiple characters and at the start of a new game, you pick one to be the focus of the game. As you complete various parts of the game, you unlock new characters whose stories you can explore. That's all I've got.
Demangel 06-28-07, 12:29 AM	@ Lanodantheon All interesting ideas, and sadly, 99% of what you want is impractical at least as far as MMO's are concerned. The Conan MMO will in some ways reflect one of your wishes, in that it actually starts off as a single player game, and then as you level up, exposes you more and more to the server till you reach a certain level and are set loose complete with a backstory of sorts (more or less the same story for everyone, but it sure beats bunnies). My knowledge and experience in the medium of Video games and virtual worlds in general tells me clearly that the time of the artificial DM is still likely decades, if not centuries distant. This is why my faith for game experience of the type your talking about lie with games like NWN, not games like DDO. IMHO MMO's work best as two kinds of things: 1: Theme parks - Think WOW, where there are attractions that people experience, complete and get a prize for finishing... (can be fun, but can also bore you when you want something a bit more intellectual). 2: Sandbox - This is where i think I have my own personal preference... Sand box games give you a world, some tools and game mechanics, and pretty much leave the content in your own hands. Take a Game like EVE online for example. Truly a magnificent game which is all about the sandbox... the players create their own motivations and they rarely revolve around the new shiny loot item that some rare spawn drops... But if my experience in DDO tells me anything, there will likely never be in our lifetime, a MMO that does what you (and I in fact) would want... A virtual life experience with that flair that only a DM can provide in PnP. At least it won't do it unless we make vast improvments to Artificial intelligence. But we can hope for a virtual version of Pencil and Paper D&D. In truth NWN and it's capabilities allows for just that, while some elements of PnP are more than simply watered down (to the point of vanishing in many cases), the core concept that someone can craft a module and run it as a DM with a party is what drew me to NWN in the first place and still does. If your a builder with skill you can even make a good hybrid game, one thats SP, but like KOTOR filled with immersion elements and drama. So what killed DDO for me? The single biggest game killer for me was that I went into it hoping to enjoy it like I would a PNP game. I hoped to run adventures, not slog through dungeons for lewt. DDO is a failure in my mind because of precisely what we want a MMO to be... I'll give you an example: I logged on, leveled up enough to finaly do something in stormreach, and joined a group after solving the easy first adventures solo. Solo was fun enough indeed... no question. But I felt like I was wasting my money already as NWN already could provide this Single player fun, and do it in an even more complex and closer to the core books way. When i joined that group, I was horrified because up till then I had been enjoying the puzzles, the mystery and the intrugue of not knowing what challenge lay around the bend. But upon the first group and every one after, there was always 1 or more players who had beaten the quest, sometimes several times over already! "Ok everyone, in the next room will be XYZ, there is also a trap near the wall on the left so stay to the right, and when we get to the end of the corridor, enter the puzzle sequence like this and we will be fine." Basically... all the hard work of making a dungeon as close as can be to a PnP dungeon fell flat because of spoilers and people completely missing the point of adventuring. Rather than throw stones I recognized that I was in the minority, and quit before my 14 day trial expired at the ripe old level of 2. I think what a lot of D&D fans need, is a dose of reality when it comes to what is possible with programming these days. Ask for the best, expect what is possible is my motto. As a NWN builder, I can take my module in several directions, and based on the limitations of NWN, there will always be some things I would love to do, and do accomplish in PnP, that I just can't do in NWN, even if I run it as a DM. I can make the module hak and slash, and arguably, every D&D story needs at least some of this. But while it streamlines combat a lot and can make it more exciting... I don't have the freedom to have my PC do things that I might try in PnP... I can't push someone down a flight of stairs... Unless the Maker programmed that in, and even if they did, it's still not the same. I can make it full of dialogs puzzles/role play, this is actually much more work, and requires that I be really inspired to make good dialog... But it is possible, I can allow for interesting conversations and even more immersive content... But as soon as I allow more than one player into the module, it can be a game breaking issue when one person dominates the dialog just because they clicked the NPC first... In the end, despite these hardships, NWN and gaming systems like it are where it's at for me when I can't PnP, and sometimes even when I can (there are some neato programs out there that let you run a virtual table top online... some of they are well worth checking out as a possible alternative to CRPG, MUD and MMO when you can't meet in person to play PnP.). My dream is of the day when I can play PnP on my computer in a way thats easy to manage, visually exciting, and so on. Games like NWN represent the first step in that direction... But enter the MMO mentality... Lets face it, there IS something about playing with dozens if not hundreds of people at the same time that fascinates us gamers. This trickled down into NWN, and now the premier way to play NWN, is to play it on a Persistent world (more or less a miniature MMO). This serves one negative purpose... game developers shy away more and more from the type of game environment I want to work with. Meanwhile for the majority of folks to be found at least in communities like this one, MMO's and Persistant worlds will always be a distant second to a well DM'ed game of PnP D&D, or even a well built and or run NWN module meant for single or party play with or without a DM. MY own NWN module will be intended to be played single player, and my writing and story plotting ability asside, I will seek to emulate the better aspects of both KOTOR, and a good session of PNP. One thing a builder like me has to do is put asside things that I consider fluf. Whats more important to you as a player? The ability to explore and interact with every nook and cranny? Or have fewer nooks and crannies, but more interactivity and purpose to what you can interact with? It's like the age old CRPG question of Open ended - Non linear, versus Linear and close ended. We clearly cannot expect a game maker, especially in todays technology medium to make a CRPG let alone a MMO have the same freedom and power as a good game of PnP. It's not quite a pipe dream, but we are going to have to accept that until Artificial intelligence breeds sentience, complaint sentience for that matter, A DM will always be required to run a game the likes of which we all hope for. In the mean time, games like KOTOR, and possibly modules like mine are/will be, are the only things we can turn to when we want pixelated adventuring. It is with these thoughts in mind that I work on my current project. Now if only I could put together a cohesive and worthy opening act... Which leads me to my final thought: It's much easier to DM than create a game meant to be played without one, even if you limit the players ability to morph the story. As a DM I run off of what my players are doing and want to do. The games that went over as the biggest successes, the ones i enjoyed running the most, are adventures that I came up with more or less by the seat of my pants. Maybe having a handful of things fleshed out, but more or less ad libbing the whole thing from start to finish. All I might have planned on some days, is you find a body and I might have an idea of who dropped it there and why, but it's up to the players to lead me toward the rest, or ignore it completely... Can't do that so easily in a CRPG... And it's quite impossible in a MMO. Happy gaming :) and sorry for the super duper long post... but I type faster than some people talk... so... I'm inclined to say everything I'm thinking. :)
Lanodantheon 06-28-07, 11:40 AM	Lanodantheon All interesting ideas, and sadly, 99% of what you want is impractical at least as far as MMO's are concerned. The Conan MMO will in some ways reflect one of your wishes, in that it actually starts off as a single player game, and then as you level up, exposes you more and more to the server till you reach a certain level and are set loose complete with a backstory of sorts (more or less the same story for everyone, but it sure beats bunnies). I realize my ideas are impractical. in fact I gleefully admit they are. But, when I think like the creator in me, the "Artist", the Filmmaker, I always think too big for my own good. I thought about a new MMO as an artist not as a Businessman. If I thought about it as a businessman, I would have responded differently. I just put down what I want in an MMO, not what I thought could be done practically and efficiently. For the next little bit I will put on my Businessperson hat periodically. When I think like an artist, I think about what will make a cool game and to Dolurrh with the money. When I think business, I think about what can be produced efficiently and affordably, maintained for the greatest amount of time and will make the greatest return for the investment of time, manpower and other resources. The game then becomes a product, a thing on the shelf I am trying to sell. I am not trying to sound pretentious or arrogant, I am just trying to approach it as a product. When I think art, I want a game with a grandness to it for the sake of wanting that large landscape and what it says about the game world. When I think business, I want a game with a high replay value and the I want to maximize the duration you play the game. The Conan idea is interesting, and is along the lines of what I'm looking for. My intention for lifepathing is to make you aware that events happened to your online character before you created it, if that's even possible physically. I want the character in the MMO you play to be more than just a bunch of pixels to you. "Business Hat" Opinion: Adding an extra dimension to character creation forces the player/consumer to invest more into the character and therefore the product. The more you invest in the product, the more attached to it you become and the more likely you are to continue playing and encouraging other people to play/buy the game. The longer you play, the more I can sell you through expansions in the future. But all that's very basic. You don't need to go to school to think like that. Business Hat on Instanced Newbie Zone: The "newbie Zone" of a game is the game's first impression, the first part of the product you see. When you give someone a free trial, this is what they remember. Free trials are vital to the sale of games right now. So, in short the Newbie Zone has to be fun. My reason for wanting an instanced starting zone based on player choices is to solve a common MMO problem: Every time you start a new character and therefore a new playing experience, you have to go back that same starting zone. This is especially the killer of appeal for some for FFXI because every time you start a new job you have to back to that starting zone and if it's not fun and unique you don't want to do it. My solution to the starting zone problem is to offer a unique experience for the starting zone. More specifically, I want the starting zone to have exclusive content or to at least give a taste of end game content to the player at the start of the game. The current Starting Zone: You enter the game, you do tutorials, maybe and then do errands for the in game NPC's. My proof of concept, "The Last War Flashback": The game begins with the game telling you you are gearing up for war in the bowels of an airship. You run tutorials with NPC's in the hold, written off as preparation to get you used to the controls. When you say you are ready to start, the adventure begins. You are dropped off the airship, or maybe the airship crashes and you find yourself an an area overrun. Your mission objective on the ground is to evade an enemy Warforged Titan coming towards your position. You have the option of gathering fellow soldiers and hiding the thing out and letting it pass. You could also go around it to get to your objective. You also have the more difficult option of gathering NPC's to take the Titan down. This scenario alone gives 3 potential ways to complete the same starting zone and 3 potential replay opportunities. If I was the designer of this game, I would have no less than 3 different scenarios like this one just for the specific lifepath of "Front Line Last War Veteran". The Back lines would have their own, the officer backgrounds their own and the mundane backgrounds their own. This is why my faith for game experience of the type your talking about lie with games like NWN, not games like DDO. IMHO MMO's work best as two kinds of things: 1: Theme parks - Think WOW, where there are attractions that people experience, complete and get a prize for finishing... (can be fun, but can also bore you when you want something a bit more intellectual). 2: Sandbox - This is where i think I have my own personal preference... Sand box games give you a world, some tools and game mechanics, and pretty much leave the content in your own hands. Take a Game like EVE online for example. Truly a magnificent game which is all about the sandbox... the players create their own motivations and they rarely revolve around the new shiny loot item that some rare spawn drops... But if my experience in DDO tells me anything, there will likely never be in our lifetime, a MMO that does what you (and I in fact) would want... A virtual life experience with that flair that only a DM can provide in PnP. At least it won't do it unless we make vast improvments to Artificial intelligence. I bow to your superior knowledge of game design. *Bow* *Bow* I never thought about MMO's like that before. Thanks. Ironically, I used to work at Disney World so I dig the Theme Park analogy something awful. When I think about it like that, game design for MMO's becomes much easier. Business Hat: Theme park attendees want to ride rides or in this case, "Quests" alone or with friends. Solo quests are the individual roads you take to get to rides and the smaller rides. The instances are the really big rides, the ones that require a group to play on. The flaw of FFXI is that every ride is a group ride. You need to group in FFXI to get anything done. Every MMO out there has these required group areas to encourage people on this MMO to mingle and meet people. This formula works and is this formula I would employ in an MMO because it works. In my design though, I follow the general philosphy that most theme parks are built on: You shouldn't be able to see everything in the park in one day/sitting. People have to keep coming back. But we can hope for a virtual version of Pencil and Paper D&D. When I play an MMO, I don't want a digital version of a PnP. I want to be able to view the same material in a different way. I want to be able to do things in Eberron Online I can do in PnP D&D: To see and hear the game material. The main draw for me as an Eberron player to an MMO of the same name is to see and hear what I've been reading about. I'll use this as a stepping stone for something I forgot the first time. There are 2 pet peeves I seek to solve and therefore offer a unique product for players. 1. Roaming mobs and nonliving NPC's: I hate roaming mobs of baddies. They don't seem real at all. They don't do anything but spawn and get ready for PC's to kill them. DDO, solves this via instancing everything. The drawback to this is that you don't see anything in the wild, just going about it's business. IF you are going to have a roaming creature, give it a life cycle. Have nagas shed their scales, eat, drink, sleep. I want to see that, because it would make the place feel alive. The same goes for town NPC's. 2. DDO Petpeeve: DM Text/VO, but no other VO's: I hate the DM of DDO with a passion. It's not that his voice is irritating or anything, it's just boring and it points out the obvious in most cases. "You uncover a secret door" DUH! But my primary hatred of the DM VO is the fact that he and he alone does a voice for every single monster you encounter. Which scares you more? A DM VO going, "He says,"The Dark six demand your death!'" or a seperate VO of, "The Dark Six demand your...death." Crap I'm out of time. :(
Demangel 06-28-07, 09:40 PM	Hahah Too bad we arn't big wigs in the gaming industry, or between the two of us, surely we'd have some market cornered ;) On to the meat and taters of your reply as I see it: As a long time artist and gamer myself, there is a fine line between immersion, and drowning. That is: Most gamers today, demand very top end graphics and sound, or they just arn't going to play... Why is this? And why do they always feel fed up after a while? It's because the graphics can and never will do justice to what the minds eye can create for the player when given the right combination of visual cue, and mental imagery. The neat thing about game design is you get to learn a lot about the human mind and how it ticks... Did you know that the human brain cannot tell the difference between what it see's and what it remembers? This is useful and explains a lot about why written books still capture so much of our imagination. It means that if you can create in the players mind, the vision of a thing and let them run away with it, you never need really show it to them for them to remember all kinds of nitty gritty details about it... I have had players swear up and down that they could see the thing I was describing, even though I went into very little detail... But on other occasions when I spent hours painting or drawing professional quality images for them they could barely remember a thing about them... Why? Because when I showed them the very detailed and wonderful artwork, their mind was robbed of the chance to make it their own memory... They remembered a picture of a goblin... not a goblin... One of the cardinal rules of many styles of artistic expression is to use empty space and lack of detail properly. Take a look at the best comic book artwork, and you will note that the artists leave out tons of detail... detail that later on you will somehow remember seeing, but won't be there... This is an example of using less detail to create more detail. Imply a thing exists and let the consumer of the art create it for you. You will often hear many times during art lessons, the instructor using the words - put and indication of XYZ here. Note that the instructor didn't say: Go into crisp detail of XYZ here and make sure to include every nuance and texture... Visual art is a very scientific process in many ways, as the better artists know, whether the know it or not, how the minds eye works, and uses that to it's advantage. They know when and how to include and indicate, when to imply and detail, and when it works, the difference is unmistakable. Funny thing is, this doesn't only apply to visuals, but applies to sounds, smells, touches and more. The human mind loves metaphor and adores filling in blanks... In music you might sometimes hear a saying that the best music in the world is silence... and that all the singing and melody and whatnot is meant to serve as a frame work for that silence... Think about it, and apply that to creating games. Imply, do not show. Suggest, do not insist. As a game player and maker for years now, One thing I noticed early on in my life was that as game graphics and sound advanced, the games required more and more to really grab my interest... The graphics had to be that much better, the story that much more compelling, the action that much more intense... The detail? It had to expand exponentially. This was because the more detailed and advanced the graphics became, the less my mind allowed my imagination to take over... In short I was pulled OUT of the experience by the very act of being locked into it. You quickly take for granted that which is crammed down your throat when it comes to art, and I consider gaming an art medium, no less than cinema, books, and music. Despite the fact that most game makers are artists, it's like most of them forget the cardinal rule of immersive inspiring artwork... don't overpower your viewers own imagination in your quest to render detail. If you render intense detail, then that detail must serve a purpose... Look at the artwork of artists like Lious Royo and many other photorealists (many made covers for heavy metal magazine which should make looking them up easier). You will note that despite the images looking hyper realistic... they also imply a lot more... they convey a lot more... Despite a majority of them being just sexy images of lusty women, some of which are borderline pornographic depending on the viewers position on the prude omometer, these works of art are not meant to be porn... Take some time with the artwork they show, really look at it, study it, let your eye wander, and you will see a lot more to it... How the gentle turn of a line can make that seductive vampiress look sad... think about how that makes you feel... allow your mind to wander. The details serve as a way to allow you to concentrate instead on the composition, on the mood, the theme, or the emotional content and then extrapolate, and expand into your own minds eye on the rest of the image that isn't shown, or the story behind it etc. Sadly, video games don't do this very well, at least not right now. The more you give to the players, the less they will have. This is why while I demand good graphics, I demand more of the engines ability to allow me to craft mindscapes for you... so that in time you don't see the graphics as much, and instead see them as only indications of where to put what your mind is envisioning. It's all about finding the middle ground. now this may seem to be about visuals and sound, but it also touches on every other part of immersion because you use the same technique for the rest of it, not just the visuals. The use of empty and negative space in a story is just as important as it is in a picture or song. The use of indication and suggestion versus detail and explaination is also important. Do you really need to have it so when the PC's climb a rope the rope is so detailed that you can make out every fiber? Do you really need it to make realistic squeaking sounds? Lastly, the more detailed and advanced the graphics, the less the consumer will let you get away with in terms of implied content, and unnatural visuals (IE visual bugs or glitches). In good old 2d land, back when Zelda as trapped in 9th underworld... We didn't care that link only had a few dozen different frames of animation, or that every tree looked like a bush and every bush looked identical. We didn't care that we couldn't see where the sword went between swings... Even today, when you show a kid who never played Zelda before (the orriginal) agfter they get over the initial shock and disapointment over the graphics, they will learn to appreciate them better and often agree, that the graphics and thier shortcomings mattered very little. Nor did it matter that the game was uncomplicated, that you couldn't climb walls, or do jump moves, or complex combos... Because Zelda like many other older games allowed you the player to imagine all that for yourself... The game was just an indication of what the artist was trying to show you... and due to limiations of the time technology wise, was forced to use the medium in that way. This doesn't mean I prefer simplistic graphics, only that I feel graphics should not overpower the content... I would rather play a game with dated looking graphics but imersive game play and description. Anyway gotta run for now, but remember you can apply the things i just talked about to more than just visuals, but also to story, and description. Empty space is your friend :)
Errant 06-28-07, 11:04 PM	My ideads for a better Eberron MMO: Personally I really don’t think that anything near 99% of what you want is unattainable. For what its worth I thought I’d illustrate why by offering some of my observations of relevant features I’ve seen in the MMO’s I’ve played. Take my observations with a pinch of salt though, some games I’ve not played in a long time and my memory might be a little shaky on specifics. 1.Sharn Specials, Dynamic Quests: While playing City of Heroes, I noted that there are some rare elite mobs that spawn at (apparently) random times and locations. For instance a giant squid/kraken in the Independence Port zone and a ghost ship in the Talos Island zone. Now the most you might get from these encounters in CoH would be XP and maybe a super-power enhancement buff if you were lucky, but, we could build on this type of encounter for an Eberron MMO. Imagine walking through Stormreach or even Sharn and seeing an otherwise innocuous looking NPC get assassinated by another NPC who is attackable for the PCs. Heck, make both NPCs attackable. If nearby PCs take the opportunity to intervene they could receive an offer the chance to undertake a special quest. Make a few such encounters rare events at random locations leading to a selection of themed quests and you might be getting what you want. Add some random elements to the quest instance and make them non-repeatable (ie if you save the same NPC again in the future he just thanks you for saving him again and doesn’t offer you the quest) and even if you can take group members with you who’ve done the quest before at least some of the quest can be new to everyone. 2. Patrons: In City of Heroes/City of Villains, you receive most missions through contacts. Do enough missions for one contact and you (sometimes) get to buy things off them plus they introduce you to another contact. To adapt this for an Eberron MMO, rather than NPCs typically giving you just one mission (which I believe is the standard for DDO), let them give you a series of quests before introducing you to another contact/patron who won’t otherwise talk to you. Align some of these contacts/patrons with NPC factions and it leads into the next point… 3.Down with the Silent Protagonists! Life paths and Allegiances: Part of CoH/CoV character generation is choosing a generic background to explain how you got superpowers; science mishap, mutation, magical and so on. In game, these have minimal effect, determining only what kind of enhancements you can add to your powers as you advance. In Lord of the Rings Online, as part of your race selection you choose a homeland, which merely determines a title you can choose for yourself (so you can set your name to appears as "Tereal of Mirkwood" for instance). Both WoW and Dark Age of Camelot allowed PCs to build up favour with different NPC factions in various ways. I believe DDO introduced factions as well (after I stopped playing it regularly) but I can’t claim to have played those games enough to know the in-game benefits for faction favour in those games. I can easily imagine an Eberron MMO that uses a faction system to allow you access to selected NPCs based on your accumulated faction favour. Imagine choosing an allegiance during your character generation that gives you a starting bonus to your favour with that faction in-game. The faction could be a nation, a religion or maybe one of the Dragonmarked Houses. Imagine representatives of the Dragonmarked Houses (for instance) in generally accessible areas offering short missions for anyone, but other NPCs who will only speak to you if you’ve completed enough relevant short missions. Imagine doing missions for one House improving your standing with that House but lowering your standing with rival Houses. Imagine themed quest rewards available only to PCs with high favour in a particular House. Establish in-game areas/NPCs aligned with other Eberron nations and power groups and you could end up with a PC who can’t get past the front door at a House Deneith enclave, but he *can* get an audience with Merrix d’Cannith, King Boranel (dreaming of a true Eberron MMO obviously, not the current DDO) and the local high priest of Dol Dorn. Throw in some NPC dialog that is triggered by your faction standings and your past actions will start to feel like they affect your future game experience. 4. Cause & Effect: CoH/CoV again offers a feature that might address this. Very simply, as you complete various missions and progress through the game you eventually notice NPCs you pass “talking” about you and your accomplishments. Imagine cleaning out a warehouse full of were rats (or some such) and later going through the same area to see NPCs congratulating you on making their neighbourhood safer. Factor in 5. Riding the Red Line: I *loath* repetitive gaming. One of the BIG reasons that I stopped playing Dark Age of Camelot was the endless farming required to “unlock” some high-level magic items, especially after the Trials of Atlantis expansion. DDO was a refreshing change partly because you (a) didn’t have to spend 15 minutes running across the countryside just to reach your quest location and (b) you didn’t have to hang around in the middle of nowhere killing the same mobs for hours on end just to activate some special power etc. Eventually though, I quit DDO largely because I found myself doing the same quests over and over. More repetition. Basically there just didn’t seem to be *enough* quests to keep things new and interesting. Being able to repeat the same quests on higher difficulty levels was not much help. Lord of the Rings Online seems to be addressing this issue very well by comparison. My main PC there is still well short of the level cap (L32 vs L50) but the XP rewards for quests accomplished are, so far, so much more valuable than XP per monster defeated that there seems to be very little farming required. In fact, except for the odd “hunt down X number of Y type monsters” quests, you seem to spend very little time hunting any particular kind of monster. This does seem to be a big departure from D&D norms though I think, mostly because of the historical focus on “XP per encounter” (relatively easy to calculate thanks to handy tables based on monster levels etc) vs “quest XP” (which seems rather arbitrary by comparison). I believe LOTRO proves it can be done though. Cut down on the XP per monster rewards for random monsters, increase the rewards for quests that *require* you to hunt down those monsters and you’ll hopefully spend less time hunting bunnies and more time collecting and completing quests. You just need enough, different quests, to keep things new and interesting. Give us a pool of quests that anyone can get, throw in a bunch of quests that you can only get if you have the right “faction”, drop the XP for repeating quests, balance that with an XP bonus for someone in the group doing the quest for the first time (so new players can find veterans to help them when necessary) and I think we’ll be approaching the perfect balance, IMHO (of course). All that said I think that while DDO is a reasonable start toward an Eberron MMO, if it is ever to going to be a great representation of Eberron is has a long way to go. Throw in something along the lines of what I’ve mentioned above, and expand game world back onto the continent of Khorvaire, and we’ll be a couple of *big* steps closer. Easy? No, of course not. Possible, absolutely. Just my opinion, of course.
Demangel 06-29-07, 12:54 AM	Figured I'd point out another element of traditional fantasy MMO gaming that never appealed to me... Problem/issue: People want the game to last them a while, this means the level progression has to be tweaked to make it take some time/effort/work to achieve the next level, or people blow through the levels quickly. On paper this sounds fine and dandy... But in practice it doesn't really do anything except create more time sinks and content bottlenecks. The longer your character is expected to be played, the more content the devs have to include, the more content they have to include the lower the quality it can be. DDO is an excellent example of how this can go wrong. Many of the quests are good ideas and fun unless someone spoils it for you, but the fact that you have to do the same 3-5 quests 10 times to level stinks... It feels artificial and kills whatever immersion is left in the game. To be brutally honest, D&D is not the best, or even a good game engine to run a MMO game with... At last not with the current capabilities of MMO engines. How do you promote role playing? How can you create immersive time elements without making the game utterly a waste of time (Ie travel to the next town takes real days instead of 1 minute, or 1 load screen?). As people who have a more refined sense of what we want from our games, a more sophisticated taste... MMO's are a LONG way from emulating the things we keep bringing up as desires for features. We can include all the nifty ideas mentioned above, and it WOULD make MMO's that much more interesting, but MMO's are flawed when it comes to the ability to emulate the PnP experience enough to appeal to PnP gamers. Now take a game like EVE online, that game might not appeal to most folks here as it's space based, and you have no avatar (your avatar is your ship and a 2d image of your character like a photo ID card), but all of the elements that you all dislike so much about most MMO's are either non existant, or less pronounced. Granted, it can/will take time for new players to see the value of EVE if they don't get it just from reading what it's about. To many new players, it's a rather boring game without quests and slow progression and a steep learning curve. To those who "Get" the spirit of the game, and spend time enough to find a niche in the game, the game is unequaled. IMHO Sandbox oriented games are the MMO's best suit for our sophisticated tastes: Thing I have personaly done/experienced that blew me away or would surprise you: 1: I was emperor of an empire and go there through role play and politics... 2: I have played spy against rival player factions. 3: I have taken my ship out and fought wars that really had meaning... We were fighting for our turf, our resources, our hunting grounds. We fought to protect our industrialists, our factories, and our honor. 4: I have explored distant reaches of space and seen amazing things. 5: I have seen ships blow up that where owned by players that have become memorial sites in game... 6: I have a name that people recognize, maybe not a lot of people, but enough... I have business contacts, allies, friends and enemies. 7: I have flown through a star system, and seen messages of players begging for help in local channels, crying out that their ship is under attack by player pirates, and flown in with my group to help them out (who I helped is my own business as was the payoff I got for the work heheh). What EVE does is put all the things that really matter into the players hands, and supports this with an NPC infrastructure, and PVE resource collection element to allow us players to decide for ourselves what our quest is... The real story of EVE and it's history after launch is almost entirely player driven, with the players creating their own factions (called corporations/alliances) many of which role play their base motivations at least a little, and even when they don't it can be hard to tell the difference. EVE is a very complex and deep game, and once you "get it" you realise no other MMO on the planet comes close... The reason it's so effective is because it's made by a group of devs that weren't afraid to try something new and aim for a niche market. They did away with XP, and the parts that are grind oriented can be circumvented by those who can think outside the box, and not cheat or exploit or break the EULA to do it... I can go into a player corporation or alliance, and spend months building up trust between us... then one day, after I have been given permissions to access some of thier valuables, I can walk off with half the corp... Conversely, I can get paid a salary by my corp to help make sure that won't happen. There is very little limitation in that game. However it can get stale when you feel like going it alone, there isn't a lot of PVE content worth exploring, as most of it is of even lower quality than games like WOW... But thats because PVE, or in other words, player versus environment isn't what the focus of EVE is. Going on missions for your NPC faction contact, isn't very exciting, and almost risk free once you know what your doing... It's really just a resource... a way to make money, materials, or friends with NPC organizations, and is just one of many. I'd like to touch on another idea... The Idea of the modular quest creation concept (MQCC from here on out). The Idea is simply this: The game makers create a system within the MMO that randomly (weighted of course) chooses various elements of a quest, and strings them together in sensible ways. For example, start with a quest type: Kill, Fed Ex, Scout, Gather (just some examples). Below that is another tree of possibilities based on other factors, and continue narrowing down and fleshing out the details. It would be done simply by a weighted number generator (Weighted of course by things like player faction, past dealings, alignment and so on), and the selection of options being specifically placed by the designers to make sense. Kind of like ad libbing... Now have all these elements point to physical resources in the game... and have the game create dynamically the dungeon, the NPC's (some would be totally randomly generated, others would be recurring etc). Have it create a dungeon either by choosing one of a hundred possible layouts, modify them slightly as needed (add a corridor or door where one wasn't before). then populate with monsters, traps, loot and NPC's and puzzles. Expanding on this would be to make quests that feature less hack and slash and more dialog role play... The end result would be that each time you asked for a quest, you would be presented by one that is usually very different from any other you have done before, but uses on occasion familiar elements. So you might end up having to kill a demon for the sovereign host countless times, but each time the scenario is a bit different. In the end, you would still repeat some content, but it would be kind of like mixing and matching things that go together and then let the system randomly determine how to lay out the plot and and challenges. such based on weighted variables. Maybe one time this mission against the demon says you have to kill the demon, but maybe in the next you will find that it's not a demon, but something else, and have to kill the one responsible for the deception etc. OR maybe you can find a non aggressive solution, maybe trick the demon, or pay it off with some item or deed that it wants. All these things are doable with current technology, but the main problem lies in finding enough people to design all these different elements and make them so they work together without feeling like they were slapped together by a random number generator. but then again, as a DM I can honestly say that i have used worse methods to decide what my party should do tonight. I have resorted to rolling percentile on a home brew list of plot seeds, several times and putting together the elements I liked, or rerolling the ones I didn't. If the initial list of available seeds and elements was selected carefully enough they could all be good ones. Anyway just ideas... but an interesting discussion nonetheless. Who knows the things we are discussing today, could be the realities of tomorrow. For all we know Sentient AI that is also compliant with our wishes may be just a few years of happy accidents away... For all we know some big company might decide to try to take all the best elements of NWN and add in those elements NWN was missing... Who knows... but heres to hoping. :cool:
polt 06-29-07, 06:42 PM	Just go play WoW. If the ever made an Eberron MMO, it would work like that.
Fanatic66 06-29-07, 09:31 PM	I don't care for MMORPG, and I much rather see an Eberron game similar to Baulder's Gate, Icewind Dale, and Neverwinter Nights. Those were great games and I would love to play an Eberron version. I would pay big $$$ for this.
Archangel62 06-30-07, 02:35 AM	An Eberron MMO needs the following 1) Internal consistency within the rules (they don't have to strongly obey D&D rules as such, just make the rules of the game internally consistent) 2) Make it so that I can do things alone or in a group (like it or not this is one of the reasons WoW does so well, if I'm on at a low traffic hour or just want to do some stuff alone for a while I actually CAN do that) 3) Give enough autonomy for a person to also be able to do One-off stuff like I can do in NWN2 where I can actually make a game to run my players through, maybe have it where we can send in what we make for consideration for actual use in the game itself. (not necessary admittedly, but would be neat) 4) Don't make it so that we have to keep pounding on the BBEG to bring them down because they are immune to everything, it isn't fun and it's frankly more than a little annoying for all involved.
Symar 07-01-07, 05:06 PM	4) Don't make it so that we have to keep pounding on the BBEG to bring them down because they are immune to everything, it isn't fun and it's frankly more than a little annoying for all involved. Yeah, that's one of the worst parts of DDO. You can't stun them, trip them, paralyze them, vorpal them, slay living them, or anything like that. I understand that part of the reason is to provide a challenge (where's the challenge when you can kill it in 2 seconds?), but at times it seems overboard.
makeshiftwings 07-02-07, 12:17 AM	Here's what the two Eberron CRPG's have taught me: Xen'drik is a good thing in the hands of skilled DM's, and a terrible thing for computer game developers saddled with licenses they don't want. The concept of Xen'drik is basically "Here's a wide open land without much written about it. You can put whatever you want here, and it is still sort of canon!" Unfortunately, Dragonshard and DDO both seemed to latch onto this, and decide "Oh good, now we don't have to worry about putting any real Eberron stuff into our game, we can just set our game in Xen'Drik, make up a bunch of stuff on our own, and not get in trouble with WotC or the fans!" I know they both have Warforged and a few other concepts from Eberron, but for the most part it's obvious to me that they specifically chose Xen'Drik just to get out of having to do research or being "restricted" in their creativity by having to adhere to the books. So we were left with games that had almost no real Eberron feel to them. It would be like playing a game with a DM who really wanted to run his own campaign world but eventually agreed to run an Eberron game, and then in the very first adventure, said, "Alright you're all on this unknown section of Xen'Drik and WHOA you just fell through a portal and now you're in a place that looks mysteriously just like my other campaign world that I wrote last year, except there are like, some Warforged or something." So I too would like another Eberron game, MMO or single-player, but if the next one is also set in Xen'Drik, I'm probably not going to even bother looking at it.