Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yamo 04-24-05, 01:17 PM	Rumors are floating about to that effect, anyway. Maybe somebody here can confirm/deny and if it's true, break down what it might mean for the line?
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-24-05, 01:25 PM	I don't think thats the case. 2004 was the best year for D&D sales ever, and I expect thats due in no small part to the release of Eberron. Just take a look at the sales rankings on Amazon. The ECS is ranked 6835, whereas the FRCS, which was released 3 years before it, is ranked 14806.
The White Sorcerer 04-24-05, 01:47 PM	Rumors are floatingWhere?
TwinBahamut 04-24-05, 02:00 PM	I seriously doubt the truth of those rumors. From everything I have seen, Eberron is very popular right now, perhaps more popular than any other published campaign setting. For example, from what I am seeing at the FLGS I go to, Races of Eberron is selling a lot better than any of the other 'Races of' books. Besides, I think some of the WotC people have denied this rumor already...
Streamweaver 04-24-05, 02:03 PM	I don't think thats the case. 2004 was the best year for D&D sales ever, and I expect thats due in no small part to the release of Eberron. Just take a look at the sales rankings on Amazon. The ECS is ranked 6835, whereas the FRCS, which was released 3 years before it, is ranked 14806. Where are you getting this information? This quarter they are reporting (http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=HAS&script=411&layout=-6&item_id=696759) more than a 90% drop in profits for their games division. The games division reported sales were down (http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=HAS&script=411&layout=-6&item_id=670861) in 2004, not up, so I'd be intersted in the source of your information.
Edymnion 04-24-05, 02:29 PM	Where are you getting this information? This quarter they are reporting (http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=HAS&script=411&layout=-6&item_id=696759) more than a 90% drop in profits for their games division. The games division reported sales were down (http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=HAS&script=411&layout=-6&item_id=670861) in 2004, not up, so I'd be intersted in the source of your information.Have you considered that you're looking at Hasbro, which is a HUGE corporation, that does all kinds of games? D&D is by no means even enough to make blibs on Hasbro's overall bottom line. And even if you want to say it is WotC's fault for the decline, have you considered that its their OTHER lines that are dying? Magic the Gathering, the Neopets cardgame, or any of the rest of the junk trading card games that they glutted themselves on during the fad? D&D can be having a record year and Hasbro/WotC can still have a bad year overall at the same time. As for where the information came from for those rankings, just go to Amazon.com and look the items up. It lists their ranking right there on the page, and Eberron is outselling Faerun, pure and simple. The "rumors" that Eberron is doing poorly is just a bunch of anti-Eberron critics that have run out of any credible excuse as to why the setting supposedly sucks, and as such have turned to saying that it isn't selling, which is an out right lie.
brotha_fas 04-24-05, 02:32 PM	Might help sales if the books were available at Borders and Barnes & Noble. I never see the Eberron books at those stores.
Siran Dunmorgan 04-24-05, 02:47 PM	Might help sales if the books were available at Borders and Barnes & Noble. I never see the Eberron books at those stores. Curious. Borders here (Sand City, California, in the Monterey metropolitan area) has a fairly complete line, including the Eberron Campaign Setting, Sharn: City of Towers, and Races of Eberron. They don't stock the adventures, however. The folks at the local gaming store have said that Eberron has been outselling any of their other d20 lines, and has sparked an increase in Dungeons & Dragons-related merchandise generally. Mind you, this is one store, not a statistically significant sample. —Siran Dunmorgan
Alac Luin 04-24-05, 02:48 PM	Taken strait from hasbro's 2004 corperate anual report. The Games segment includes the development, manufacturing, marketing, and selling of traditional board games and puzzles, handheld electronic games, and trading card games and role-playing games. Much more figures into this then Eberron.
midniteprism 04-24-05, 03:11 PM	Might help sales if the books were available at Borders and Barnes & Noble. Yeah, the Bordes in downtown Atlanta, Ga. Has a pretty decent selection of D&D material.
Fordel 04-24-05, 04:26 PM	I've purchased more DnD related game books in the past 6 months then I have in the last 5 years due to my interest in Eberron. I doubt I'm alone :p
DBlizzard 04-24-05, 05:11 PM	Where are you getting this information? This quarter they are reporting (http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=HAS&script=411&layout=-6&item_id=696759) more than a 90% drop in profits for their games division. The games division reported sales were down (http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=HAS&script=411&layout=-6&item_id=670861) in 2004, not up, so I'd be intersted in the source of your information. Actually, the industry analysis says that roleplaying games were down overall, except for the big two that have seen gains (D&D and World of Darkness). Trading card games have seen a hit, apparently, overall. That's a big profit drain because they are high profit items.
Streamweaver 04-24-05, 05:26 PM	Have you considered that you're looking at Hasbro, which is a HUGE corporation, that does all kinds of games? D&D is by no means even enough to make blibs on Hasbro's overall bottom line. Of course I have. That's why I didn't say he was wrong, I just asked where he got his information from. And even if you want to say it is WotC's fault for the decline, have you considered that its their OTHER lines that are dying? Magic the Gathering, the Neopets cardgame, or any of the rest of the junk trading card games that they glutted themselves on during the fad? Did you mean to quote another thread? You seem to be having a conversation that doesn't have anything to do with anything of mine you've quoted. No surprise there. I never said there was a problem, let alone tried to blame anyone for it. I just pointed to what sketchy published information there was so far and asked for them to link their source. D&D can be having a record year and Hasbro/WotC can still have a bad year overall at the same time. What's your point? I never said it couldn't. As for where the information came from for those rankings, just go to Amazon.com and look the items up. It lists their ranking right there on the page, and Eberron is outselling Faerun, pure and simple. What does this have to do with anything? I never claimed it wasn't. I didn't claim anything and even if I did this means absolutely nothing. Who cares if Eberron is outselling books that people have had years to purchase. This isn't a FR versus Eberron thread. The original poster asked about how well Eberron was doing, I've never touched on the subject. All that was asked was where the person got their information on the record sales of DnD. The "rumors" that Eberron is doing poorly is just a bunch of anti-Eberron critics that have run out of any credible excuse as to why the setting supposedly sucks, and as such have turned to saying that it isn't selling, which is an out right lie. Not that anyone can really tell what the kernel of reply as completely out in left field as this one is, but I suppose it's some kind of tantrum over wanting Eberron to do well. This has kind of become habit for you as I see your name crop up in reply to posts I make and I think it's unfortunate. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that most of the folks coming to this forum feel the same way. Most people here would probably like to see Eberron do well, and probably enjoy the setting. I know I do and I hope it has a bright future. So when I see this kind of behavior it disappoints me because I see the richness of community involved in a game as a key element to the health of a gaming product line. So coming across people who seem to want to take any opportunity to attack someone is always disappointing. Hopefully the setting is good enough to bring in a higher quality of fan, but time will tell.
Streamweaver 04-24-05, 05:29 PM	Actually, the industry analysis says that roleplaying games were down overall, except for the big two that have seen gains (D&D and World of Darkness). Trading card games have seen a hit, apparently, overall. That's a big profit drain because they are high profit items. That could be. I've heard both claims and I can tell you my hopes are definitly that games do well and will do better in the future. Particularly I think introducing high quality products like Eberron give it the best chance of growth in the future. I think the topic in general is interesting and it would be an interesting read if the reports could be linked here. I don't mean that in a skeptical way I think some folks are taking it, it's an honest question and it would be an honest read. I know that I often don't recall exactly where I read something so no worries if you don't, just if you do, it would be great to read. Thanks.
Taigis 04-24-05, 05:48 PM	Might help sales if the books were available at Borders and Barnes & Noble. I never see the Eberron books at those stores. Im curious which Barnes and Noble you are visiting. Working at a B&N, the reasons I can think that a store wouldnt have it are: 1. they sold out and are waiting for restock to arrive or 2. their product was stolen and the store hasn't realized its loss. In the stores that I have worked, roleplaying is generally a high theft target area. There may be stores that don't carry the full Eberron line in stock, but I'd expect at least the ECS to be there. Both B&N and Borders order books that they don't have in stock for customers. Taigis
Ohtar Turinson 04-24-05, 05:52 PM	Stormweaver? Sorry to butt in but... I think Edy was only responding to your post for the first bit. After that he was responding to the topic in general, not you in particular (or so I assume). As to the bookstores- it depends on the buyer. Most of the bookstores in my area (Central MA) have at least one shelf devoted to D&D stuff, usually more. There are several Barnes and Nobles that don't have any at all- it depends on who's in charge of purchasing.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 04-24-05, 06:04 PM	Where are you getting this information? Charles Ryan posted a while back that 2004 was D&D's most successful year to date over on the D&D General (or was it Future Releases?) board. I'd like to give you a link, but the Search is down so it would be too difficult to find.
Quoriil 04-24-05, 06:40 PM	I know that B&N and Borders have only recently put DnD material back on their shelves in central NY but Media Play has had better selection than any of our gaming stores for the core and main WotC splatbooks.
MavrickWeirdo 04-24-05, 06:41 PM	Where are you getting this information? This quarter they are reporting (http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=HAS&script=411&layout=-6&item_id=696759) more than a 90% drop in profits for their games division. The games division reported sales were down (http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=HAS&script=411&layout=-6&item_id=670861) in 2004, not up, so I'd be intersted in the source of your information. This just means that Eberron in 2004, did not make as high of profits as Pokimon Cards in 2003.
Greyson 04-24-05, 07:43 PM	The "rumors" that Eberron is doing poorly is just a bunch of anti-Eberron critics that have run out of any credible excuse as to why the setting supposedly sucks, and as such have turned to saying that it isn't selling, which is an out right lie. I agree whole heartedly with this sentiment. The Eberron bashers would rather lull themsleves into comfort by thinking and preaching that "Eberron isn't selling." Those detractors feel better when they deride the setting because of their false notion that it diminishes their favorite setting. I don't know the numbers, and I really don't get concerned. It's a great setting, no matter what sales figures look like. I'll keep buying. I just finished Keith Baker's Eberron novel, Dreaming Dark Book One: City of Towers. It was awesome, and I can't wait until the second one this December. Anyway, back to my regularly scheduled forum lurking.
Meta_FR_DM 04-24-05, 08:19 PM	The "rumors" that Eberron is doing poorly is just a bunch of anti-Eberron critics that have run out of any credible excuse as to why the setting supposedly sucks, and as such have turned to saying that it isn't selling, which is an out right lie. Or it could very well be a select group of Eberron fans who don't want to see their favorite new setting die, and so are testing the waters to see what other people have heard. Or are you implying it's entirely impossible for anyone to be a true Eberron fan unless they believe so greatly that Eberron will do well that they disregard any objective data or discussion that might prove the contrary? Dave -who thinks mindless fanaticism has no place on these forums- M.
(Psi)SeveredHead 04-24-05, 08:34 PM	Maybe it's because I live in Canada, but here gaming books are nearly always bought from gamestores, not Barnes & Noble. Hairy Tarantula said that "everybody loves Eberron" and compared it's sales favorably to books like Complete Warrior. As CW is a player book and the ECS is a DM book, this says a lot. (That and CW sucks, but that's another thread.)
PoeticJustice 04-24-05, 08:34 PM	Stormweaver? Sorry to butt in but... I think Edy was only responding to your post for the first bit. After that he was responding to the topic in general, not you in particular (or so I assume). That's called ranting. When you rant people respond in kind. Luckily enough Stormweaver was nice.
brotha_fas 04-24-05, 08:39 PM	Im curious which Barnes and Noble you are visiting. Working at a B&N, the reasons I can think that a store wouldnt have it are: 1. they sold out and are waiting for restock to arrive or 2. their product was stolen and the store hasn't realized its loss. In the stores that I have worked, roleplaying is generally a high theft target area. There may be stores that don't carry the full Eberron line in stock, but I'd expect at least the ECS to be there. Both B&N and Borders order books that they don't have in stock for customers. Hollywood area. Frostburn, Sandstorm, Races of Destiny/Stone/the Wild... no Eberron stuff. Might be stolen or already sold, but I haven't any copies in the stores.
Edymnion 04-24-05, 08:51 PM	Or are you implying it's entirely impossible for anyone to be a true Eberron fan unless they believe so greatly that Eberron will do well that they disregard any objective data or discussion that might prove the contrary?Hey, if its being a fanboy to have an opinion that is backed up by specific sales information (aka book rankings at Amazon.com, which are set by how well the book sells), and its being level headed to point to a drop in sales in which this entire genre is only one small factor as being proof of Eberron's supposedly bad sales, I guess you can call me a fanboy. My FLGS sells out of Eberron material routinely. Heck, the only way I got my Races of Eberron was that the guy that owns the shop knows me and set one aside for me. The things sold out in a day every time he put them out. And there's those pesky Amazon.com rankings that are putting Eberron ahead of Faerun in pure sales rates. Its not being a fanboy of the setting to point to specific data that says Eberron is doing quite well, as opposed to generic naysayers that point to Hasbro Gaming as a whole being down, and that must somehow be Eberron's fault. Dave -who thinks mindless fanaticism has no place on these forums- M.Heh, if you want mindless fantaticism, I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree with me. I'm actively telling people NOT to buy Races of Eberron without a lot of forethought first, as most of it simply is not up to Eberron snuff. We've provided evidence that Eberron is not only staying afloat, but selling through the roof. We have yet to see ANY supporting evidence for the "Eberron sales suck!" side of this. Hence, based on all available evidence, Eberron is selling quite well, and anyone that says otherwise without showing some kind of specific information about D&D and Eberron is just blowing hot air trying to stir something up. They are telling something other than the truth, hence they are lying. Thats not mindless fanaticism, thats just UnCommon Sense (since common sense is by no means common).
Sarlax 04-24-05, 10:05 PM	And there's those pesky Amazon.com rankings that are putting Eberron ahead of Faerun in pure sales rates. Amazon's sales ratings are a composite of present and past sales. It's not a reflection of overall numbers. Since the FRCS has been out three years longer than the ECS, it's natural for the ECS to have a higher rank. A better setting on setting comparison would be with products released at similar times. Or pre-ordered items that come out at the same time, like Champions of Ruin (32,808 in Books) v. Explorer's Handbook (203,955 in Books). Of course, Amazon hardly makes for a statistical sample, so drawing arguments from its numbers is rather meaningless. Only Wizards knows.
Edymnion 04-24-05, 10:13 PM	Amazon's sales ratings are a composite of present and past sales. It's not a reflection of overall numbers. Since the FRCS has been out three years longer than the ECS, it's natural for the ECS to have a higher rank.Yes, newer books have higher rankings because they are selling faster, because they are new. However, the ECS is still selling faster than the Faerun books, and since the issue is on current sales, thats the most important number to look at. In shear volume, Faerun outsells everything else by a wide margin, no doubt. But Eberron is currently selling faster, so it's ranked higher. Which still means there are more people currently buying Eberron than there are buying Faerun. And that means however bad someone says Eberron is doing just means Faerun is selling that much worse.
Gurv 04-24-05, 10:25 PM	The discussion of vendors is considered a big no-no by the moderators. Talking about who sells what and who doesn't can look like we're bashing whoever doesn't have what we want when we want it, and bashing WotC vendors on a WotC message board (whether we mean to or not) is not something they condone. Threads have been locked for less. That said, I've never had a problem getting sourcebooks. Most places seem to have them within a reasonable period after the release, and no one place seems to have any problems with D&D or roleplaying in general. I don't know the statistics, but my personal experince is that roleplaying sections in major bookstores have been expanded and given more prominant positions in the last few years. Recent culture seems to be showing more interest in fantasy settings, whether it is Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter or whatever. I know Eberron hasn't had a negative effect on the industry, in any event. It seems to have had a very positive one.
Methos of Aundair 04-24-05, 10:47 PM	We've provided evidence that Eberron is not only staying afloat, but selling through the roof. Actually, you have only provided one proof of evidence, and that is not clearly enough to prove your theory. In order to fully support your theory you need more evidence which can clearly support you. Don’t get me wrong, I love Eberron, but if you are going to argue/discuss this you need to do it correctly. You cannot come out and state Eberron is doing great because of this one source. Someone else could come a long with their one source from somewhere else and show their evidence that Eberron isn’t doing good. Basic concept, show more evidence to prove your theory if you are going to make the above statements. Otherwise, this is just a discussion on our opinions, not based on clear facts. Again, before you start going on about being an Eberron hater, I prefer Eberron over any other setting at this time. Which still means there are more people currently buying Eberron than there are buying Faerun. Makes me wonder what the reports were for sales on FR during it’s first year and comparing that with ECS’s first year. Currently we are basing ECS after or about 1 year and FR after 3 years. Recall also that the current FR is based off of a prior edition which is what, 10 or 15 years old? A lot of older players did not purchase the 3rd edition FR due to it being no more than fluff. Why bother buying the new book when they already had the information in their 2nd edition books? Why am I mentioning this? Simple, it throws off our comparison. We are basing FR through two editions, 3 and 15 years, to a setting which was just created and released one year ago. Once again, the comparison cannot be made under these conditions. Find reports from FR sales in it’s first year (2nd edition and 3rd) and compare this to ECS. Once again, not an Eberron basher, blah blah blah.
Meta_FR_DM 04-24-05, 11:00 PM	Hey, if its being a fanboy to have an opinion that is backed up by specific sales information (aka book rankings at Amazon.com, which are set by how well the book sells).. . …so long as you qualify that opinion by not claiming or otherwise implying Amazon’s sales are somehow adequate benchmarks for sales in all other non-online retail formats (such as sales to wholesalers and distributors like Ingram) and other online formats, then yes, be a fanboy. Just be a smart one. My FLGS sells out of Eberron material routinely. Heck, the only way I got my Races of Eberron was that the guy that owns the shop knows me and set one aside for me. The things sold out in a day every time he put them out. So we’re supposed to assume this means the same is true for all FLGS owners at all stores? And without proof? That would be mindless fanaticism. Its not being a fanboy of the setting to point to specific data that says Eberron is doing quite well, as opposed to generic naysayers that point to Hasbro Gaming as a whole being down, and that must somehow be Eberron's fault. There’s nothing wrong with asking why Hasbro’s numbers plummeted, and wondering if the sales numbers at the Books Department at Wizards had anything to do with it if they were experiencing similar problems. Whereas the presumption of evil intent and assumption of conspiracy on the part of fans from other settings…well I can see plenty wrong and plenty stupid with that. I'm actively telling people NOT to buy Races of Eberron without a lot of forethought first, as most of it simply is not up to Eberron snuff. Highly subjective, but that’s fine. I found the book to be right inline with other Eberron material myself, which is also fine. We've provided evidence that Eberron is not only staying afloat, but selling through the roof. No, you haven’t. We have yet to see ANY supporting evidence for the "Eberron sales suck!" …you’re right. But the absence of proof of such does not automatically prove the opposite. Critical thinking 101. Hence, based on all available evidence.. Not quite. What about asking Charles Ryan whether Eberron hit its quarterly and yearly sales goals on all accounts for all books? Ask him if Eberron books were intended to outsell non-setting specific splatbooks like Races of Destiny or Complete Divine or Sandstorm, and/or whether the ECS and RoE were meant to outstrip their Realms counterparts (FRCS and RoF) in initial (i.e. first month of release) or quarterly sales. Were all those special sales goals achieved? And what about Novels? Eberron is selling quite well.. …by whose standards? Yours? Wizards of the Coast? ….and anyone that says otherwise without showing some kind of specific information about D&D and Eberron is just blowing hot air trying to stir something up. This assumes ‘anyone’ must know the same amount of limited information on Amazon.com sales that you do. Which, even for this select online community, is highly unlikely. Which is why simply pointing out to others what information you have to share with them for their own review and analysis is always better than unleashing the Spanish Inquisition upon them for their ‘obviously evil motives and intent’. Unless you really can read minds through computer monitors, in which case, “Go Get ‘em Spaniards!” :rolleyes: They are telling something other than the truth, hence they are lying. Yawn. That’s not mindless fanaticism, thats just UnCommon Sense (since common sense is by no means common). I’ll stick with common sense then, thanks. And that means however bad someone says Eberron is doing just means Faerun is selling that much worse. This one made me laugh. Best circular logic ever. In summary, I think it’s impossible to know someone’s intent when they post a question like the one Yamo authored to start the thread. It could very well be they want to spread rumors and play Dr. Evil at their computer while we all hash and re-has the subject. Or they could have heard or read about Hasbro’s recent poor performance and wondered whether WotC’s new baby (Eberron) might have arrived stillborn. Because of this it's best (I think) to simply point out what you know, point to where you found that information, make a summary analysis (i.e. give your opinion) and then leave it up to everyone else to make up their own minds. Dave M.
KP91 04-24-05, 11:13 PM	Heck, the only way I got my Races of Eberron you cursed RoEB.
ImmortalBlueMage 04-25-05, 01:22 AM	Indeed, if you skim the boards you will find ample claims that Eberron is not selling. You also find claims that 3.5 as a whole is not selling, that 3.0 never sold at all, that Wizards of the Coast has been going bankrupt since 1998, that Hasbro has fired most of the old WotC staff and is planning on dismantling all of Wizards of the Coast over the next two years, that sales are so bad no new books are actually being written and the "new" stuff that's being released is just everything that was produced before "all the cutbacks", that the price hikes in the past few years are just "proof that we're right about everything!", and that Wizards of the Coast is secretly run by a superintelligent alien brain that lives in a tank and calls itself Gleemax (that last rumor being perpetuated by a few unscrupulous WotC employees).
Sarlax 04-25-05, 02:05 AM	Yes, newer books have higher rankings because they are selling faster, because they are new. However, the ECS is still selling faster than the Faerun books, and since the issue is on current sales, thats the most important number to look at. I agree. So let's look at products which are equally current. Since you seem to have missed it before, I'll copy it back. "A better setting on setting comparison would be with products released at similar times. Or pre-ordered items that come out at the same time, like Champions of Ruin (32,808 in Books) v. Explorer's Handbook (203,955 in Books)." These are each set for release in August. One Forgotten Realms, one Eberron. One is much, much better than the other. Now, as I noted, Amazon isn't a statistical survey, especially given that we don't know the precise method by which they create their rankings. In shear volume, Faerun outsells everything else by a wide margin, no doubt. But Eberron is currently selling faster, so it's ranked higher. Which still means there are more people currently buying Eberron than there are buying Faerun. Then why is Champions of Ruin ranked better than Explorer's Handbook? You've presented only one piece of information (information, not evidence) that Eberron is selling faster than Forgotten Realms, and that's only a comparison of the ECS vs. the FRCS. There are dozens of ways to interpert that rank comparison. For instance, it could mean that the potential market for the Realms campaign setting is saturated. Since the Eberron campaign setting is still new, however, there's still room for it to reach its limit. The smarter comparison to make is to look at all products, not just the two products which, when compared, seem to make your case, which is why I presented two products with the same release date. According to Amazon, the Forgotten Realms supplement is selling much better than the Eberron supplement. I have no idea how you draw the following statement from Amazon's rankings: And that means however bad someone says Eberron is doing just means Faerun is selling that much worse. I haven't seen many people making the claim that Eberron is selling badly, only some calls for a rational examination of the evidence untainted by love for the setting.
Meta_FR_DM 04-25-05, 02:28 AM	Announcer: "And the Mustain's (Sam and Dave) have it!" :D Sorry, couldn't resist. :embarrass Dave -Mustain- Maxson
Kid SixXx 04-25-05, 08:54 AM	I usually don't respond to "rumors" threads that don't provide at least one source to back up said rumor, but here goes: This just means that Eberron in 2004, did not make as high of profits as Pokimon Cards in 2003. Probably the most reasonable thing said in this thread. Sales for toy companies overall will be very weak, unless you have a product that has year-round appeal & is profitable enough to carry your company. Hasbro has such a product in their trading cards which, for some reason, have valleys of inactivity but never really seem to run out of steam. We've all been waiting for the Pokemon "fad" to die for nearly half a decade. The only thing it did was slow down and breed more offspring like Yu-Gi-Oh, Duel Masters, and NeoPets. Sales in 2004 will naturally be rather weak compared to 2003 when the Pokemon bonanza overall received quite a bit of steam with the releases of Pokemon Ruby & Sapphire for the GBA. I concur with my peer, Sarlax, on the lack of validity of Amazon as a source, as Amazon rankings aren't statistical and are only a representation of Amazon's customers overall that bother to order the book online. Not exactly a set of data with any reliable controls. A better dataset might be the Top 10 Games of 2004 data as talled via sales data from Previews magazine. Naturally the data is somewhat suspect as it only tallies sales via solicitation through the magazine, but unlike Amazon, at least the data is arguably a better representation of the market that WoTC is aiming for. http://previews.diamondcomics.com/support/previews_docs/top/best_of_2004.htm#TOP TEN PRODUCTS 2004 Eberron products have sold fairly well through the fall of 2004 according to their data, but the market is dominated by trading cards and miniatures, especially Hero Clix. No RPG-products, not even FR related material, cracked Previews Top 10 of 2004, which lends absolute legitimacy to Streamweaver's post about overall sales figures. If something sold extremely well in 2004, it certainly wasn't RPG related material, much less Hasbro's material. RPG material probably performed well overall, but it's not the market driving force that most believe it to be. My advice to Yamo: 1. Kindly list the source where you heard the rumor next time. 2. Post more than once in your rumor thread, as not taking part in a discussion you initiate is pretty suspect.
Edymnion 04-25-05, 02:53 PM	I haven't seen many people making the claim that Eberron is selling badly, only some calls for a rational examination of the evidence untainted by love for the setting.And you're the first one I've seen that actually attempted to provide any evidence to support the other side. The claim is that sales are poor, but no evidence to support that claim was presented. Burden of proof is always on the person making the accusation. The evidence is that Eberron is doing quite well. Its had two books in rapid succession, as well as two lines of novels, and it's races have been included in the DDM game. Local gaming stores have been selling out of Eberron books by several people's accounts now. If one is going to make the claim that sales are bad, when there is sufficient evidence to say otherwise, they must supply evidence to support that claim, or its invalid. Saying "It Sucks" is just trolling and being childish. Saying you don't like it, and giving a list of legitimate reasons is being mature and rational. Same applies here.
Korhal_IV 04-25-05, 04:30 PM	Eberron sells quite nicely at my gaming store too. Statistically speaking, five random stores constitutes a sample large enough to draw a very generic conclusion (a T-curve or something like that, if I recall correctly). Since all of these stores mentioned in this thread report good sales, Eberron is probably doing well nation-wide. Amazon's rankings are probably another good source - I'm betting quite a few gamers use Amazon more frequently than their local game store. Sarlax's numbers on CoR and EHB show that Faerun is probably doing a lot better than Eberron is at this point in time (which is, frankly, irrelevant except to a few egomaniacs who want their setting to do better - er, that includes me), but with five months left the EHB has plenty of room to catch up. I don't pre-order my books, but you can bet I'll be picking up the Explorer's Handbook. :)
Orion Polaris 04-25-05, 04:50 PM	The only things that suck about Eberron are the changeling prostitutes!
Altaris 04-25-05, 05:07 PM	Eberron sells quite nicely at my gaming store too. Statistically speaking, five random stores constitutes a sample large enough to draw a very generic conclusion (a T-curve or something like that, if I recall correctly). Since all of these stores mentioned in this thread report good sales, Eberron is probably doing well nation-wide. Amazon's rankings are probably another good source - I'm betting quite a few gamers use Amazon more frequently than their local game store. Sarlax's numbers on CoR and EHB show that Faerun is probably doing a lot better than Eberron is at this point in time (which is, frankly, irrelevant except to a few egomaniacs who want their setting to do better - er, that includes me), but with five months left the EHB has plenty of room to catch up. I don't pre-order my books, but you can bet I'll be picking up the Explorer's Handbook. :) I concur. I do not even reserve video games (Halo 2 being the only exception in my life.) I'm of the old guard that supports FLGSs, of which there are several in my area. And all of them are selling Eberron quite well. My own FLGS in particular has a large stock of everything DnD, but only had 2 copies of RoE when I went to get it. There was a rather large stack (I'd venture a guess of 5 or 6) of copies of Lords of Madness. That I know, I'm only one of two people in my area that has bought LoM. The ECS has been sold out at my FLGS for quite a while. They order more in, and the next time I'm there, they are gone again. Now for my opinion. I bought the FCS when it came out. Actually, a couple of months after it came out. I bought it because I needed it, and not because I wanted it. At the time, the DMs in my area where all die-hard FR fans. Guess what? They've all converted. I have only used the FR book for one game, since then it has only taken up so much space on my shelves. Eberron though? I've already used the ECS for two of my own games, and have plans for at least three more Eby campaigns. With the advent of RoE, we've begun using the Eby races in our other games. We have a Changeling cohort and a 'Forged PC in our multiverse game. I may not have any direct resources to say that Eberron is outselling FR (and I'm not say that at all.) But IMX, Eberron products are selling extremely well. On a side note, RoE is now sold out at my FLGS. (Sold out in the first week.)
Medesha 04-25-05, 05:26 PM	The only things that suck about Eberron are the changeling prostitutes! :rofl:
Methos of Aundair 04-25-05, 07:48 PM	The claim is that sales are poor, but no evidence to support that claim was presented. As has already been mentioned by another, the author of this thread has not added to this conversation nor showed any basis for his claims. I’m sure you can expand from there on your own. The evidence is that Eberron is doing quite well. Its had two books in rapid succession, as well as two lines of novels, and it's races have been included in the DDM game. Local gaming stores have been selling out of Eberron books by several people's accounts now. I’m curious as to your age, and not disrespectfully either. I recall when FR originally came out in 2nd edition and the exact same thing you state above happened there as well. It’s not that it’s because the setting is doing great that everything is coming out so fast, it’s a simple corporate strategy. When a new setting comes out the corporation wants to make profits off of it as fast as they can, as well as make those profits during the so called ‘fad’. When a setting or product fist comes out it typically generates a hype and corporations wish to profit from this as fast as possible. The best way is too print supplements, novels, etc during this ‘fad’ time. Eberron is not the first time this has happened. In summary, the above ‘quote’ you stated doesn’t prove anything, as the exact thing happened with FR when it first came out. I may be wrong, but I’m assuming you are too young to remember that. I apologize if I am incorrect. If one is going to make the claim that sales are bad, when there is sufficient evidence to say otherwise, they must supply evidence to support that claim, or its invalid. That’s the problem, you have not provided sufficient evidence to prove either way. So far your evidence has been Amazon and what I have quoted above, which doesn’t stand as that is the typically strategy for most products. Edit: Remove last paragraph as I felt it could be taken as insulting, though I didn't mean it that way. Just to be on the safe side.
Liane the Wayfarer 04-25-05, 09:50 PM	... in before the Lock!
Methos of Aundair 04-25-05, 10:06 PM	... in before the Lock! So far I see no reason why this thread should be locked. Currently it appears as if all of us are discussing this in an adult fashion. So far no one is yelling or insulting anyone, and that is definitely good. Hopefully we can all keep it that way. Hmm, I just realized that the bottom paragraph of my last post could be taken as insulting. I believe I'll remove it.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 04-25-05, 10:28 PM	I'm pretty sure if they where going to close it down then they would actually say something, or if sales where so slow. The fact that eberron is still here shows that it is a growing thing. Companies like Hasboro don't look at the short term, 5-10 years of business. They look at the long term 20-30 years. I mean for christ sakes how long has GI Joe been around? Hell my mom is like 48 and she remembers the GI Joe dolls when she was a kid. So I wouldn't be sweatin' it, these guys are major league for a reason.
sh0 04-25-05, 10:48 PM	I've purchased more DnD related game books in the past 6 months then I have in the last 5 years due to my interest in Eberron. I doubt I'm alone :p I'm with you on that one. Eberron sparked my interest in D&D again, leading me to spend at least $500 on material, not even counting the chunk of change I've dropped on minis.
Sturm Jaeger 04-26-05, 01:17 AM	Might help sales if the books were available at Borders and Barnes & Noble. I never see the Eberron books at those stores. Both these stores have Eberron and other D&D books in my area. Maybe yours just doesn't stock them, or they sell out before you get there. Ask them to order the books for you.
DBlizzard 04-26-05, 04:44 AM	There’s nothing wrong with asking why Hasbro’s numbers plummeted, and wondering if the sales numbers at the Books Department at Wizards had anything to do with it if they were experiencing similar problems. You can see an analysis of this here (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/6736.html) also, here (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/6654.html) is an analysis of the 2004 game market which notes that WotC roleplaying sales are up (compared to the overall RPG market being down). While this doesn't say anything about Eberron compared to other D&D products, it does lean towards D&D doing well overall. If sales are up when the market is down, that's a good thing.
WotC_Andy 04-26-05, 02:43 PM	No one outside of Hasbro/WotC has accurate sales figures for any Wizards of the Coast products, so anyone making claims about such information is either extrapolating from anecdotal-and-thus-unreliable data (such as the sales at their particular retail outlet or distributor) or simply making it up. For any Hasbro employee to discuss such figures in any detail would be inappropriate at best and illegal at worst. While Eberron products may well represent only a tiny, tiny fraction of the company's overall product line, it's still a violation of both company policy and, potentially, U.S. law to divulge such information. Hasbro is a publicly traded company and thus must obey a long list of rules and regulations detailing how and when it can release financial data (and believe me, posting it on message boards in response to questions doesn't fall into the category of acceptable). Though I'm only a lowly developer, with little ability to affect the overall business realities of the universe, I will say this: Eberron has a lot of strong supporters around here, including RPG R&D Director Bill Slavicsek (who wields a bit of influence), and a number of Eberron products are in the pipeline (in fact, I'm just finishing up development on one of those), so I don't think the line is in any risk of fading any time soon.
Altaris 04-26-05, 03:27 PM	Thanks for that Andy!
Liane the Wayfarer 04-26-05, 09:48 PM	Hmm, I just realized that the bottom paragraph of my last post could be taken as insulting. I believe I'll remove it. That was the main reason I felt it would be locked. Thanks for helping to keep things civil!
Methos of Aundair 04-27-05, 08:48 AM	That was the main reason I felt it would be locked. Thanks for helping to keep things civil! Thanks for the notice.
fuindordm 04-27-05, 10:12 AM	It's always great to see responses like this from the WotC staff, even if they can't divulge much information. Thanks for chiming in, Andy. Ben