Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Arkhaven 07-06-04, 10:24 AM	I am about 150 pages into the Eberron book and it is a very good read. I like the world overall and think it would be a great place to start a game. I am however seeing a trend which really makes no sense to me. All of the power players, and by that I mean rulers, leaders, and other people of import, are by and large way to low in level to merit the positions they have. I've given this a lot of thought when creating my own campaign world that my friends have played in for over three years. Consider, in a world of monster attacks, mad wizards, super-assassins, undead armies, and unfettered demons, whom would you prefer to be your leader, a 2nd level person or a 16th level person? I'm sure you would agree that in the reality of Dungeons and Dragons the 16th level person is the way to go. The high level leader can not only better resist plots of assassination, corruption, or cohersion, but they can destroy the enemies of the state first hand. They also garner the respect (or fear) of your neighbours by virtue of their power. They also will no doubt have peers of equal level, friends and comrades of old who would help the leader if he or she asked. The result is a town, province, or even nation that would enjoy a higher level of safety and security. Something a 2nd level leader could never match. I mentioned the 'reality of Dungeons and Dragons' and it bears both repeating and clarification. If we are to give life to PCs and NPCs then we must take a moment to think as they think, and their thoughts have of course been shaped by the world they live in. We simply cannot instill our view of our world onto their life, particularly politics and leadership. The rules are different and these characters would organise themselves according to the rules of their reality, not ours. For example, none of the leaders in our world can survive a Maximised Cone of Cold - and thankfully they don't have to. That however is the reality of Eberron's PCs and NPCs. I would put forth that PC or NPC level becomes one of the most important factors when determining who will lead and who will follow. Gygax recognised this in the first incarnations of the game. Leadership wasn't a feat and it wasn't a simple plot device. Leadership was earned through high level. At 9th level a fighter had the option to build a stronghold and attract followers. A rogue could do something similar at 10th level and a wizard, at 11th. These levels were admittedly arbitrary but the spirit of the message was clear. a 4th level fighter or wizard has not the capabilities to suvive the necessary rigors of leadership in the reality of Dungeons and Dragons. Now, back to Eberron, where a 4th level character is in charge of that most wondrous Brelish floating fortress. Honestly, having played D&D for twenty years I can not think of one character that I had who had reached 4th level and was ready for such an undertaking. Even more preposterous is the 13th level wizard who holds a position on the same fortress. The dynamics involved between a 13th level character taking orders from a 4th level character is one that has been imprinted by the writer alone, giving no thought to the actual reality of the situation. This Brelish fortress is but a single example. I rather like the goblin hero who created and rules Darguun. Haruuc stuggles to lead a nation of 800,000 and is a respectable 12th level. If one were to look at the kind of wealth a 12th level character is expected to generate - by the rules - they may have enough to consider the building of their first fortress, or perhaps a secton of a larger, on-going project. In Eberron however, by 12th level you are one of the higher level rulers of an entire kingdom. The natural issue that arises for the DM is, what if your 12th level character feels the same way? Playing once a week the average group of friends should see their character rise to 4th level in two or three months. Within a year and a half your character is well on their way to 12th level, perhaps even more than that. After two years of play a party of Eberron adventure's, say a team of six character rising as high as 15th level have it within their means to strike out and conquer all of Khorvaire. I've played a long time. Read the book and do the math. The nations have not the means to block teleportation, or ethereal travel. They have not the means withstand the awful amount of punishment your party can dish out. They have not the means to even harm such a team. A 15th level character has access to 8th level spells. Many leader types in Eberron have not even reached that character level! It would be a sad, horrible mismatch. You can even conquor nations in the name of law or even goodness, because for example, to have the economic powerhouse that is Breland in the hands of an 8th level character is a recipie for disaster! One opportunistic dragon with a CR 16 or so will ruin that nation and seize it for themselves unless your godlike warband is there to protect it. I can understand the aversion to fill the book with high level NPCs. After all this book is to be different from the Forgotten Realms, not similar if one can help it. In this however I think they went too far. There is nothing stopping a veteran party from routing out Darguun when the feel the time is right. I'm not sure that was the game designer's intention as it saddles the DM with some very serious game-running problems and heady ramifications to the campaign over all. As written I cannot see how Eberron will become anything other than the player's personal sandbox.
eigch 07-06-04, 10:59 AM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven As written I cannot see how Eberron will become anything other than the player's personal sandbox. that was the idea of the design of the game in the first place. Eberron is catering to those who are sick of the following "just as you realize you can't slay the dragon by yourself, DRIZZT AND ELMINSTER SHOW UP YAY!" besides that, the PC's should be the most important people in the world when they get to high levels... they've earned it by then. As far as having low lvl leaders is concerned, there is the matter of dynasty. the extreme example of this being the child emperor. probably not even a 1st lvl character and running the empire. And there are plenty of leaders who aren't necessarily "high level" I could probably whoop George W Bush in a fistfight, yet he is the leader of the free world. I understand how in a fantasy world great heroes are the ones who become leaders and conquerors, but eberron is slightly different, and a little more similar to our world, and I'm glad to present a sandbox for my players.
EberronGuiGui 07-06-04, 11:18 AM	no ruler have to get a high level to be a ruler to be a ruler you only need to be the first son of a ruler
EberronGuiGui 07-06-04, 11:26 AM	Originally posted by eigch I could probably whoop George W Bush in a fistfight, yet he is the leader of the free world. In no way Bush is the leader of my country. And my country is part of the free world. Thus Bush is not the leader of the free world.
demonpunk 07-06-04, 12:41 PM	Its a difference in style. Different people have different interpretations on the "reality of DnD." I understand your viewpoint and in fact use it in some games. I'm running a Celtic-style game on the side, and it makes sense for all the leaders to be high-level druids and bards. However, my main game is closer to the Eberron style. Basically, don't think of the world in terms of PC classes. Most NPCs are low level, and most are NPC classes like experts and aristocrats. In a more civilized society, rulership is determined by right--noble blood, election by the people, etc. There is no game stat for being a good leader, and by that I mean making the right decisions in ruling a nation. As for high level rulers being able to handle assassination attempts, etc., a 6th level king might have a 10th level bodyguard. I'm sure leaders in Eberron have plenty of magical protection. In fact, its an arguement against the 12th level champion of the land becoming king--if he's king, he can't go kill the dragon terrorizing the farms or thwart the drow plot--he has to stay and see to his royal duties. As for PCs being leaders at higher levels, again that's a style issue. Conan became a king by his own hand, but he had trouble. Aragorn became a king because of his lineage (I bet Legolas could take him in a fight, but he's not a king). I know these are examples of cinematic and literary characters, but that's part of the style of Eberron.
Zelgadas 07-06-04, 12:53 PM	Something that Kieth tends to reiterate a lot is that he believes that experience points should work differently for NPCs than they do for PCs. NPCs don't have the enheirent potential to be a hero or a villain that PCs do. Thus, they tend to gain levels slower, and they top out sooner. PCs, on the other hand, are touched by something greater, they have a destiny or higher purpose. This is represented by the fact that they gain levels at the rate that they do, and that the can take those levels all the way up to 20, and beyond even. Also, as has been pointed out by others, the rulership of a country usually has more to do with tradition, bloodlines, and charisma than with the ability to steamroll your opponents through sheer force of arms. That's why, generally, you'll see higher-level rulers in nations like Droaam and Darguun than in nations like Breland and Aundaire; in the wilder, more untamed nations, the leaders had to fight for their positions, so they tend to be more powerful.
Captain One 07-06-04, 12:56 PM	I'm not going to go into the bush thing, this isn't the forum for that. And I hope this thread does not turn into it, because it is a good topic and it would be a shame to see the thread locked because of political opinions. Anyway, I agree that the PCs should be able to go in and whup up the leaders of the countries displayed in the book. But it makes sense in game terms and "quasi-realistic" terms as well. If they are busy leading a country, they don't have time to adventure and rack up the XP. This is why they have knights and wizards on their payroll. It is just like today. You won't be fighting the leader of a country, you'll be fighting his army. The leader could be very low level (adventuring XP-wise) but have the support of the people. That's all he would need! Besides, if your PCs get powerful enough to defeat an army, then they would be able to take over that country. And why shouldn't they, if they can and want to. I think that would be awesome event in a campaign. The frickin adventures would write themselves at that point. You would have rebels and freedom fighters trying to take them down. Not to mention any allies the country had. As big and bad as PCs get, why can't there be other NPC adventuring groups that found what your PCs did to be absolutely horrid. They'll get ready to lay the smack-down on the fledgling rulers. The people of the country may protest and resist the takeover. They may not be able to destroy the PCs, but when there is not food, lightning rail, soldiers, etc... for the PCs, let them find a way to deal with it. Good luck.
MavrickWeirdo 07-06-04, 12:59 PM	In addition, just because you are high level, does not mean you want to be a "leader". Thomas Eddison never held a government post, he would rather be in the lab.
Zelgadas 07-06-04, 01:49 PM	Also, let's look at this hypothetical situation: Harrik Breakskull, mighty adventurer, challenges King Boranel, ruler of Breland, to single combat. He kills him. Does that mean that, just because he was more powerful than Boranel, he can now lead the country? Does that mean that the people will accept him, or that the other nations will accept him? Very likely, unless he's a very good leader in addition to being a bad mother effer, he'd be deposed in a hurry. After all, he's just killed a beloved ruler. My point is that there's more at work here than levels and stats. The people of Breland don't know what level King Boranel is. They simply know that he's the son of the previous ruler of Breland, that he's a member of the royal line of Galifar, and that he's a wise and just ruler. That's really all that matters. He wouldn't personally go off and slay a dragon that happens to be eating the local townsfolk; that's what adventurers are for.
Buffetassassin 07-06-04, 02:11 PM	We have also brought up a good point; this is a fledgling campaign setting. I don't think "the realms" began with Drizzt running around slaying everything. As far as I remember stats were not even included in the first editions of the Forgotten Realms box set. Just because the NPCs listed are not high level does not mean high level NPCs do not exist. As it has been mentioned multiple times this world is made for you to tailor to your own style, and "If it exists in D&D it has a place in Eberron." So if you need 20th level enemies MAKE THEM! On another point, it would be a little more than sheer stats to CONQUER KHORVAIRE. A 20TH lvl Fighter or Wizard can not win over the masses of every nation in Khorvaire, nor can he conquer a nation that has been at war for 102 years already. Plus if you really want to have challenges, why not pop your 20th level heroes over to Argonnessen and try to meddle with the NATION of Great Wyrms that live over there. HAVE FUN! :D
Ormus 07-06-04, 02:25 PM	There was a discussion about this very thing right here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=3780108#post3780108) . It makes sense that people who obtain their political power through inheritance not be quite so high in level. I sure don't give my PCs experience for inheriting stuff. One should keep in mind that a low level Aristocrat can afford to hire or attract followers and minions to protect him/his nation/etc. I think Zelgadas hit it on the head with his point above about more being at play than just levels and stats. You have personal motives, politics, etc. Check out the thread I linked to above. To summarize some points there: Originally posted by Pwner 0f n00bs I've always wondered how royalty who obtain their position through inheritance get to be level 20 fighters and such. They don't do much warring and haven't got much incentive to go adventuring. Wizards, Clerics, etc. I understand. I imagine they were designed as such originally to keep moronic PCs from slaying them on a whim. It appears that D&D and other instantiation of RPGs are finally growing beyond that necessity. I think this addresses your problem directly Arkhaven... As your PCs rise in character level, simply raise everyone else if you must to keep them in check. It seems likely that the "world" levels up as NPCs go about doing things...in the same manner that your PCs are leveling up. Further, how do your PCs even know that certain low level leaders are low level without meta-game knowledge? Investigating protective capabilities of world leaders is risky business as well. There is a lot more to consider here aside from levels and stats.
St23aM 07-06-04, 02:39 PM	... to be a ruler you dont need to be a high lvl PC class you just need a couple of other things.. 1. Lots of MONEY 2. Build a Fortress/Keep w/ your lots of money 3. Hire people to protect your keep and pay them well. 4. Peasants should start to build there farms near or in your keep. By this time you can start building walls around the farm. 5. peasnts feel safe and can retreat to your keep if there is danger. So for this and because you have proclaimed that this is your land now and the fact that you have hired Guards and Knights now .... The peasants pay you taxes and tarriffs. 6. The peasants make you richer. 7. Wall your land up send patrols on the roads that now lead to your land / keep. 8. Peasant farmers open markets in your keep .. 9. A middle/upperclass forms from opening of shops / stores which buy from the peasant farmers and craftsmen and sell for a profit. 10. Caravans of Merchants start to run between your Keep and the next or in the next country, they are using "Your" land so its only fair they pay taxes on all things they sell bring in ect.. 11. Be fair with the Taxes you charge, keep people safe etc.. and they will fight for you. And hey why do we want to screw with this guy when hes pretty good to us. High lvl PC's come along ? Hire them .. pay them well ... they will like you too atleast 80% of the time. If not use your resources to kill them send a couple thousand soldiers after them if need be .. after all these people are greatful to you and loyal .. they will die for you. 12. Merchants establish an aristocery. Respect them and treat them well as well.. throw them some bones .. cheaper taxes for instance.. besides they do busness in bulk and bring in more than a peasant does in taxes ... dont be greedy. 13. Repeat Steps 1-11 agian some where near you .. 14. Give insentives to teh Arictrocy for administering lands and keeps near you. 15. you become a country. There are many flaws in this I know .. not the least of which is spelling. However this is how it is done in some ways and there are others. The overall point is you can rule with out being High lvl. This example just uses money and un used land. If you uses this example on frontier land and establish your bloodline or even let the aristoricy to rule after you, the cycle will continue.
Gilgiga of the Hunt 07-06-04, 03:27 PM	Not to menton the fact that by the rules, Diplomacy is insanely easy at a mere first level. A First Level Human Nobel with 16 Cha can gain a +12 bonus easy. (+3 Cha +4 Ranks +2 Negoeatior +3 Skill Foucs). Oddly that's enough to make a pit fiend, who was sworn to kill you from birth, and you slew his parents (at first level mind you) not care one iota about your exstance with mere 13 on the dice roll. But that's a different problem all together.
Lord Arkhaven 07-06-04, 03:43 PM	These are all interesting points, but I would like to point out that most of you good people are applying an 'our world' sense of logic or tradition to a world that is anything but ours. One of the fundamental differences between the real world and a D&D world like Eberron is the adventurer, a heroic or villianous person ultimately beholden to no one but himself, armed to the teeth, magicked up the ying-yang, and capable of taking on hundreds if not thousands of zero levels without much difficulty. This super heroic individual, and all the others just like him, simply MUST have a huge impact on the worlds they live in. They are a power unto themselves and any society who lives with them must have created a system of checks and balances to deal with their kind. I submit that the easiest way would be for your leader to be one him or herself. The point of 'a leader leads and does not adventure' has come up. Really though I can easily see a heroic figure doing both. Have any of you kept track of 'game time' in your campaigns? Many do. An active adventurer can spend from three to five years in 'game time' and reach the upper levels. If such a thing is therefore possible, would it not be prudent for a potential leader to spend a small portion of his youth, his 'salad days' slaying monsters and gathering experience so that when he or she rises to power they have double digit levels to assist them in their new position? If they had done so it would certainly rule out the chance that they would be intimidated or cohersed, which is so prevalent in our world's political dealings. Remember, I am trying to think as they would think, taking advantage of the realities of their world in order to improve my position, as is only natural among us mere mortals. I think we must first agree that a very high or epic level character has the power to say, "Screw this, I can do better and I will" when it comes to political policy and leadership in a D&D world. In our world we may gripe or disagree with political policy but we have no means of teleporting into parliment and cleaning house! This is a reality in our game worlds. Having an 18th level fighter bow to a 2nd level aristocrat based on blood-line and traditions of obediance alone is reaching at best, especially if the fighter disagrees with the aristocrats policy! To simply say otherwise is to foist our leadership system on a world that would have evolved differently. My point holds true in any D&D world but especially so in Eberron because generals, leaders, and royalty are extremely low level. A 30th level character could make his or her presence known in the Forgotten Realms, and maybe that's okay because I know of few who have played to that lofty level. In Eberron that can happen at 15th level and many people play that far. The threshold of utter campaign collapse, a re-writing of history and a re-drawing of the maps is more than possible in Eberron. I dare say it's inevitable if the players are crafty and ambitious enough. A reminder: I am enjoying the book tremendously and think is it a great piece of work, a worthy addition to the D&D line. This topic however came to my mind while reading it and so I posted it here.
lparks 07-06-04, 04:05 PM	These are all interesting points, but I would like to point out that most of you good people are applying an 'our world' sense of logic or tradition to a world that is anything but ours.I would counter that you are applying meta game information to a living world that could be viewed much like ours. Can you stop adding up plusses in your head for a minute and imagine the force that can be brought to bear by a nation that loves its leader? Put your PHB away, there is no stat for devotion to a cause that would see ten thousand good men die to defend the crown. If you want to invade Breland when you hit 15th level do it. If your DM goes along with it fantastic. I'll take the setting as is, where heroes are heroes and leaders are leaders. Who but a megalomaniac would want the responsibility of running a nation anyway? Don't you know there is an entire continent of lost secrets to be uncovered?
Lord Arkhaven 07-06-04, 04:15 PM	Originally posted by Gilgiga of the Hunt Not to menton the fact that by the rules, Diplomacy is insanely easy at a mere first level. A First Level Human Nobel with 16 Cha can gain a +12 bonus easy. (+3 Cha +4 Ranks +2 Negoeatior +3 Skill Foucs). Oddly that's enough to make a pit fiend, who was sworn to kill you from birth, and you slew his parents (at first level mind you) not care one iota about your exstance with mere 13 on the dice roll. But that's a different problem all together. I can use your point to illustrate how a society with even a few of these adventurers can be forced to evolve into a different form of government. I very much enjoy playing a rogue/cleric with 19 levels total. Currently he is moving into a position of kingship but his ascendancy is not yet certain. (In this game - like mine - all the royals are damn high level.) Because of his political asperations he has near maxxed out Diplomacy and Sense Motive. Their total modifiers are +28 and +25 respectively. Let's say your 1st level Diplomacy dude and my my 19th level hero are neighbouring rulers, and we need to sit down and discuss policy. Simply put, I win. I'll always win. You will almost never win a roll and I am not likely to lose one. By and large my policies and my interests will hold sway and you will be all the more happy for having assisted me. I won't even get into when your country is being attacked by a dragon and Jolly King Solidus wind walks to the fight, slays the beast, and then wind walks home in time for tea - oh wait, I just did get into it, and get out. So quickly that my subjects barely knew that I was gone. Waitaminute! I wasn't gone. My simulacrum (made by my wizard comrade) filled in for the twenty minutes I was off saving your country. A breach in national security? Hardly. A masterstroke of foriegn policy? Definately. The point is that soon the common folk of your kingdom are going to demand that their leader can hold his or her own against the likes of me, and the other rulers like me. What will eventually evolve through the eons is a hero-centric ruling class. High levels mean national security.
Buffetassassin 07-06-04, 04:17 PM	Ok is this whole game about stats to you? Or does your entire game last around numbers? I rolled a 55 on my Diplomacy check! THE WORLD IS MINE YAY! I can see why your signature fits you perfectly.
Lord Arkhaven 07-06-04, 04:34 PM	Hmm... I don't mind being called on number-crunching, but to simply 'close the books' and put my head into the sand regarding this whole issue doesn't work either. The leadership issue may not have been thought out - but don't think of it!!! Go explore Xen'drik instead. If that is your answer then really, why join this conversation at all? Your mind is set. Leaders who are leaders for entirely ephemral, written-in reasons seems a dichotomy in a game where player characters are statted out in great detail. Is this duality necessary to run the game? We're just throwing around opinions and scenarios here, right?
debatedeus 07-06-04, 04:39 PM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven These are all interesting points, but I would like to point out that most of you good people are applying an 'our world' sense of logic or tradition to a world that is anything but ours. If the world is anything but ours then what is the productive point of arguing realism in DnD? How can you speak pragmatically ('our worldly') about power levels and that a self-interested 18th level fighter that could, and thus would, ignore the edicts of a 2nd level aristocrat, but in the same breath deny that we cannot apply 'our world' senses to how political schema evolve. Logic is pretty much cross-cultural, as long as you pick a frame of reference, and 1+1 is 2 if you hold our definitions constant. If you put people like us into a campaign world they are going to behave the way that we would. Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven One of the fundamental differences between the real world and a D&D world like Eberron is the adventurer, a heroic or villianous person ultimately beholden to no one but himself, armed to the teeth, magicked up the ying-yang, and capable of taking on hundreds if not thousands of zero levels without much difficulty. This super heroic individual, and all the others just like him, simply MUST have a huge impact on the worlds they live in. They are a power unto themselves and any society who lives with them must have created a system of checks and balances to deal with their kind. I submit that the easiest way would be for your leader to be one him or herself. The point of 'a leader leads and does not adventure' has come up. Really though I can easily see a heroic figure doing both. Have any of you kept track of 'game time' in your campaigns? Many do. An active adventurer can spend from three to five years in 'game time' and reach the upper levels. If such a thing is therefore possible, would it not be prudent for a potential leader to spend a small portion of his youth, his 'salad days' slaying monsters and gathering experience so that when he or she rises to power they have double digit levels to assist them in their new position? If they had done so it would certainly rule out the chance that they would be intimidated or cohersed, which is so prevalent in our world's political dealings.[/B] The thing I like the most about Eberron is the shift that it feeds the game. In Eberron, there are no Elminsters to save the day when everything has gone or is going to hell. The PCs are supposed to be the only ones who can do it, they are the Heroes. They are unique people with unique potentials to advance and grow. Not everyone can gain experience points, not everyone can get to level 2, let alone level 5. People with that level of growth potential are intentionally rare. PCs are special, every time they undertake a mission or quest they shouldn't think "Elminster could do this in a heartbeat" or live in his shadow as adventurers. A person who is born a leader cannot just grind out mobs of kobolds MMORPG-style to become a high level character. Keith in another forum said that most NPCs cannot gain XP in the sheer quantities that a PC can, if they could then almost every veteran of the last war would be a 20th level warrior. If any of the groups I DM decided to go to a plane to fight its powerful extraplanar denizens strictly to level up, I would award them very little to no experience for their trouble (and not much treasure either). Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven Remember, I am trying to think as they would think, taking advantage of the realities of their world in order to improve my position, as is only natural among us mere mortals. I think we must first agree that a very high or epic level character has the power to say, "Screw this, I can do better and I will" when it comes to political policy and leadership in a D&D world. In our world we may gripe or disagree with political policy but we have no means of teleporting into parliment and cleaning house! This is a reality in our game worlds. Having an 18th level fighter bow to a 2nd level aristocrat based on blood-line and traditions of obediance alone is reaching at best, especially if the fighter disagrees with the aristocrats policy! To simply say otherwise is to foist our leadership system on a world that would have evolved differently. My point holds true in any D&D world but especially so in Eberron because generals, leaders, and royalty are extremely low level. A 30th level character could make his or her presence known in the Forgotten Realms, and maybe that's okay because I know of few who have played to that lofty level. In Eberron that can happen at 15th level and many people play that far. The threshold of utter campaign collapse, a re-writing of history and a re-drawing of the maps is more than possible in Eberron. I dare say it's inevitable if the players are crafty and ambitious enough. A reminder: I am enjoying the book tremendously and think is it a great piece of work, a worthy addition to the D&D line. This topic however came to my mind while reading it and so I posted it here. To use a fantasy setting example, Gandalf the White was a head and shoulders more powerful than any other being in Middle Earth (save Sauron, but even then, definitely stronger than him). If he wanted he could have gone into Gondor and said, "I am King now" while masses upon masses of level 1 and 2 warriors cowered before his all-powerful glory. Look at how easily he handled three of the best fighters in Middle-Earth in Two Towers (Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn) in what must have been the equivalent of one round! He certainly could have ruled all of these countries on his own better than any other leader. Nevertheless he did not approach any throne and declare himself dictator. Why? Not for lack of power. The short and simple why is that because he was good, he was a hero. An 18th level fighter could waltz into just about any parliment in any setting and wipe them out, as far as I have ever heard. And if such a character arises they are the enemy that PCs will rise up to defeat. And if a PC is that fighter, then NPCs that represent what the PCs could have been will rise up to counter what the PC has become. The fact is, in our world, anyone who could manage to get their hands on Weapons of Mass Destruction possess power comparable to a high level character. The U.S. went to war in Iraq presumably because this power may have existed in hands it did not control! 15th level need not be the threshold of utter campaign collapse. There are a number of planes unexplored, a number of powerful epic threats around. Just because the PCs could conquere Khorvaire doesn't mean they could hold it or that they will or should.
TarlSS 07-06-04, 04:45 PM	You're also assuming that your group of adventuring PCs is the only group in the world. Sadly, that isn't the case. 15th-20th level PCs go adventuring into Xendr'ick and the like all the time. If they didn't, the Brelish expeditioning liscenses won't mean much. So the fact is, Kings and all could easily hire an equivelent or much higher band of adventurers take take care of any errant 18th level PCs who decide to go power mad and force the system. And who says that the parliaments and palaces aren't guarded against teleportations and magics? The defenses of such places aren't listed in detail. I imagine with House Orien and House Thuranni about, precautions would be put in place. Or any fool with some gold would be able to portal an army into the capital. Besides the fact what of the Blood of Vol and the Aerenal elves? Since their rulers are 20th level or higher equivelent, clearly they'd be able to steam roller into Khoirvaire and be done with it. The fact is- they can't. Unpublished characters, factions and factors are obviously preventing them to do so. WOTC has already provided a couple hundred pages for the flavor of the setting, it's up to your DM to figure out how to make the guts of it work. It's not a CRPG where there isn't a human face behind there to keep your from messing around with the debug file. If the king is a 2nd level weakling and his country's the strongest in the world, obviously there's some kind of power behind the throne. If that isn't published, then it's obviously your DM's job to create whatever that power it is, whether it be an obscenely powerful gaggle of mages, or a lawfully loyal group of 25th adventurers on retainer.
Hellcow 07-06-04, 05:21 PM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven These are all interesting points, but I would like to point out that most of you good people are applying an 'our world' sense of logic or tradition to a world that is anything but ours. There is a similar question on the Ask Keith thread, and I'll save the greater part of my answer for this. But I do want to add a point to the discussion. Arkhaven: I grant that a fantasy game is not a mirror of the real world. But to me, it should be a mirror of a good fantasy novel. Would you agree? If so, how does your theory play out in the novels you enjoy? Looking to some things I've read: * Lord of the Rings: Let's look at the established rulers of the countries of men. Denethor... do you think he'd stand a chance against Aragorn, Legolas, or Gimli? Or even Boromir or Faramir, if it came to a swordfight? If you gave Denethor class levels, what would they be? Would you really call him an 18th level character, capable of shaking the world on his own? Should he have the personal power to strike fear into the Fellowship? Theoden was certainly a warrior king, but again, who would you put your money on if it was him versus Aragorn? I see Theoden as a good match-up for King Boranel; with 12 class levels, Boranel *is* one of the mightiest warriors in his kingdom -- but he's still not going to stand up to the heores when they have attained their true potential. And for that matter, who *would* you say was the most powerful character in LOTR? Surely Gandalf is up there -- so how come he wasn't ruling a country? * King Arthur: Minor point, but Arthur wasn't the greatest knight of the realm -- Gallahad was. And Merlin was a greater power than either (in my opinion -- I'm not looking to get into a debate on Arthurian legend). The King doesn't need to be the most powerful figure if he has the unswerving loyalty of those who are. * Elric: Do you really think that there are many kings in the Young Kingdoms who could personally go toe to toe with Elric? * Conan: Same question... Rulers need to have enough power to believably hold their station, but in my mind that power can come from tradition, from Charisma, or from the loyalty of powerful retainers. Unless they rule through despotic force of arms, their lack of personal power shouldn't be a factor. Yes, the party will eventually have the power to kill kings, if that's what they and you want to do. But if you take that away, you're saying that they never get to be Aragorn or Legolas -- that Denethor should have been able to defeat Mordor on his own. Also, on the shaping the world as a high-level character, I have to echo what's been said by others. Once you reach a high level, you may be able to defeat the entire army of Breland and kill King Boranel. But there's a big difference between having the physical power to defeat an army and having the ability to lead a hostile land. The US has over 100,000 soldiers in Iraq, and look how unstable things are there; how are you going to control a far larger hostile territory with 4-6 people? You unquestionably have the power to shatter the established order -- but you may not have the ability to pick up the pieces afterwards. This is one reason the villians DON'T just kill the rulers. When the Inspired conquered Riedra, the key was to make the people see them as peacemakers who arrived and brought an end to war; they were not conquerors, they were saviors. Their plans for Khorvaire will undoubtedly be as subtle. This is not to say it can't be done; Dynasties and Demagogues goes into great detail about running political campaigns. But having the power to defeat an army does not automatically give you the ability to rule the world.
Captain One 07-06-04, 05:31 PM	Debatedeus, you summed up my thoughts exactly. A high level group of characters that want to take over a nation could do it. Why don't they? Most PCs are much more interested in being heroes and adventurers. Like I said in my earlier post, if your group wants to take over a nation, that's great! Go for it. I know that the people that I game with would have no interest in ruling a nation. Too much boring stuff to do. Setting policy, foreign affairs, dealing with conflicts in house, etc... :) We'd rather be in combat with a high level demon saving the world instead. It's all just a matter of taste. The other point is even if you could defeat the ruler, why wouldn't he have high level people loyal to him that defend the country? It's all up to the GM.
zcthu3 07-06-04, 05:48 PM	Anyway, this isn't the first time that a D&D setting has has rulers with low levels - infact, the Birthright setting originally had them even lower (from memory the ruler of the City State of Illian was a 3rd level Wizard). I agree that it is more than level that keeps a king (or queen) on their throne - it is a combination of factors such as 'divine right', personal charisma and wisdom, supporting factions etc. Just because your 20th level fighter can wipe out armies doesn't mean that he would make a good ruler. Just look at Achilles - a high level character who was almost a psychopathic killer (if you go by the Illiad rather than Troy) would not be my first choice of king (then again, I wou'dn't choose most of the characters in the Illiad to be king...)
St23aM 07-06-04, 06:20 PM	thing is I have a hard time beliveng that a group of high level PC's could take out an entire nation that has 10s of thousands of troupes and even if they did.. The other nations surly would retailate in fear of the same thing happening to them. You would see some of these flying fortresses lobing spells and bolders at PC's while 50,000 soldiers and perhaps more if they are affraid enough to start producing warforged agian and possibly even some undead troops. You would have a Second war agianst one party. ... and every wizard has to run out of spells and sleep some time.
Docrailgun 07-06-04, 06:49 PM	Elsewhere, you'll see that Keith (Hellcow) has mentioned that 99% of all the humanoids on Eberron will never be higher than 1st level... and 1st level is an achievement. As for Gygax, remeber that in _Deities and Demigods_ (1st ed AD&D), Gygax suggested that PCs that were 3 or more levels higher than the average PC level were likely to ascend to serve their god (or even to achieve divinity). Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven Gygax recognised this in the first incarnations of the game. Leadership wasn't a feat and it wasn't a simple plot device. Leadership was earned through high level. At 9th level a fighter had the option to build a stronghold and attract followers. A rogue could do something similar at 10th level and a wizard, at 11th. These levels were admittedly arbitrary but the spirit of the message was clear. a 4th level fighter or wizard has not the capabilities to suvive the necessary rigors of leadership in the reality of Dungeons and Dragons.
Magagumo 07-06-04, 06:55 PM	ignore (wrong discussion)
zcthu3 07-06-04, 07:02 PM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven The point of 'a leader leads and does not adventure' has come up. Really though I can easily see a heroic figure doing both. Have any of you kept track of 'game time' in your campaigns? Many do. An active adventurer can spend from three to five years in 'game time' and reach the upper levels. If such a thing is therefore possible, would it not be prudent for a potential leader to spend a small portion of his youth, his 'salad days' slaying monsters and gathering experience so that when he or she rises to power they have double digit levels to assist them in their new position? If they had done so it would certainly rule out the chance that they would be intimidated or cohersed, which is so prevalent in our world's political dealings. To address these points in more detail. In my younger days when I had more time I ran a two year (real time) Birthright game - a setting where the PCs are rulers. The PCs started at 1st level and finished up at 20th (except for one who was 40th - but that is another story). While I agree that in a standard D&D game (of which I have run many over the last 13 years or so) the PCs would have reached these levels in about 3-5 years of game time it took the PCs in this campaign about 15 years of game time to reach the same levels! The reason? Ruling a kingdom takes time and the King's (or Queen's, or High Priests, of guildmaster's) presence. As it was their kingdoms suffered while they were off adventuring - one lost provinces to a rival kingdom. Another one was nearly destroyed by a rampaging dragon that the party had managed to hack off in the past. Others had disasters that the court couldn't handle - as they needed the Kings permission to access the royal treasury. Just because you are appointed Chancellor doesn't mean you can just hand over the gold. Another was the subject of an attempted coup while the king was away adventuring. Basically, being monarch, High Priest, Guild Master whatever, takes a lot of time out of your adventuring schedule as you deal with the day to day problems of rulership. This means less 'adventuring' XP for characters and lower level rulers; That's why rulers hire adventurers afterall - they don't have time to go off and deal with the problem themselves. Now, your point that PCs could adventure before they become rulers is well made but what monarch is going to allow their heir to go off adventuring? Adventuring is a dangerous business and many don't come back - in a world where True Resurrection is so hard to come by (as true Clerics are rare) - are you going to risk your son/daughter dying in the middle of nowhere when they cannot be Raised from the dead?. Much better to have them at home training with the swordmaster, learning military tactics with a general, and accounting with the local accountant (or whatever) Not the best way to rack up the levels staying safely at home with mum and dad. As for intimidation that also doesn't fly IME. I've seen a 20th level Paladin, Emperor of a united Anuire (as the PC was when he 'retired' from adventuring and finished his War of Unification) intimidated. Not by a threat to himself but by a threat to his people. Why target the King, especially when he is so powerful, when you can just destroy his power base or stir up the people against him? Threat of war also works. A responsible "good" king should be more worried about his people then his own well being regardless of level. Hence whether he is low level or high level is irrelevant, after all even a high level Wizard can't be everywhere at once (although they can try), and even if they could they have to sleep sometime. On a personal level, a high-level character may be able to deal with an assassin, but when that assassin is targeting his wife (a lower level character - IMC it was a political marriage and they didn't spend a lot of time together), or his new-born child etc. then things become a lot more risky and he can be intimidated that way. Basically, the state of being a monarch or other ruler actually impeds the accumulation of XP and therefore levels, and even being high level doesn halt methods of intimidarion. The methods just change to indirect threats to the monarch's people, family members etc. rather than to the King himself.
Docrailgun 07-06-04, 07:06 PM	You're making an incorrect assumption here. 3.5 is a much different game than 1st or 2nd ed AD&D where a PC had as many attacks vs 0-level NPCs as they had levels. It's very difficult for PCs to get extremely high ACs (that is, over 25) even with magic, whereas it was not terribly difficult to have -20 ACs in 1st and 2nd ed AD&D. Even with a 25 AC, a PC is still vulnerable to ranged-weapon fire (or even better, splash-damage weapons), especially massed fire. Ray or other touch attacks also affect even high-level PCs fairly easily. Even a 30th level fighter takes the same damage from crossbow bolts or alchemical fire (or even better.. _Magic Missle_). Then there's "instant death". SUrely an army of 0-level fighters can come up with a way to cause 50+ points of damage all at once.. a cauldron of boiling pitch? A catapult rock? In the end, though, it seems to me that if one's players are going to "take over the world", then one of two things are true: 1) there's something wrong with the way the campaign is being run, or 2) it's time to find new players. Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven One of the fundamental differences between the real world and a D&D world like Eberron is the adventurer, a heroic or villianous person ultimately beholden to no one but himself, armed to the teeth, magicked up the ying-yang, and capable of taking on hundreds if not thousands of zero levels without much difficulty. This super heroic individual, and all the others just like him, simply MUST have a huge impact on the worlds they live in. They are a power unto themselves and any society who lives with them must have created a system of checks and balances to deal with their kind. I submit that the easiest way would be for your leader to be one him or herself. here.
Joni-san 07-06-04, 07:28 PM	When reading this thread I was reminded by the storyline in Inu Yasha that lead to Naraku gaining his new body. It went something like this: Naraku (BBEG) went to the bodies of 7 mercaneries that died after being doublecrossed by their employers because he wanted to revive them. That he did and got what he wanted from them (And he doublecrossed them at the end too. Ironic, isn't it). The reason why these mercaneries were killed was because they were simply too good at what they did, just one of them was enough to kill dozens upon dozens of men without being in danger. Eventualy the warlords decided to launch an ambush, hoping that it would kill them. They succseeded at their attempt (volley upon volley of arrow and musket fire eventualy works against nearly anything) These mercaneries would be high-level in D&D (perhaps 10-13) and yet they were killed by mere low-level human warriors (the NPC class). Just thought it fit the discussion. This scenario would most likely be used by NPC's if PC's started acting in a similar manner as discussed in this thread.
MoogleEmpMog 07-06-04, 07:31 PM	In the late 19th/early 20th century, the heirs to many of Europe's major royal houses were routinely sent on 'world tours' to experience as much of the world as possible, in addition to their education in a broad range of fields - military strategy, horsemanship and classical fencing very much among them. Some of these tours lasted months, if not longer, and in the course of them young noblemen would visit all manner of exotic places in Asia, Africa, South America, as well as much of Europe. Nicholas II of Russia actually came close to death on such a trip. The future Czar was attacked by an angry samurai while in Japan, and was struck in the head with a katana (the wound probably cracked his skull). I believe it was Prince George of Greece who fought the warrior off with his walking stick; Prince George, at least, must have been an above-average fighter to fend off a sword-wielding trained warrior with such armament. If we assume that the ruling houses in our D&D worlds were founded by Kings By Their Own Hands, as most are, these young fellows (and lasses, in D&D's gender-neutral default world) are descended from heroic bloodlines and as such probably have a good shot at gaining PC classes, even using the 'most people can't gain EXP' theory. One or more world tours in a world full of all manner of monsters, magic and assorted and sundry wonders, training in the national martial art, in strategy and in close order drill, and leading in the field as many prospective monarchs did prior to the 18th century at the earliest. That sounds like at *least* at 5th- or 6th-level character to me, and that's prior to ascending to the throne. Since skill use can also give EXP, a seasoned monarch really should reach 10th or 12th level by middle age, possibly more if he's a warrior-king.
zcthu3 07-06-04, 07:41 PM	Okay, that's fair enough - but these were 'world tours' rather than a life of adventuring. I would argue that the risk of death and maiming is significantly higher when you are living a life on the edge of civilisation at risk constantly then when travelling in a "relatively safe" world tour. While in one case (and maybe more) one of the royals was badly injured, surely it was an isolated case? If not, I recant my point. Regardless, this tale reinforces number of low to mid-level characters found in Eberron - a number of the important NPCs are about 12th level - most of those levels are Aristocrat rather than a PC classes but that suits - as most of the XP is gained from negotiating treaties etc. rather than slaying monsters. Maybe the 4 levels of Fighter etc. relate to their youthful 'adventures' while touring the world, and then the 8 levels of Aristocrat relate to their more sedate experiences as a noble or ruler where their XP comes from less martial pursuits and more diplomatic ones. IMO it makes a lot of sense to have a number of low to mid level characters with predominantly NPC classes in Eberron. Some of the older NPCs might have higher levels than normal, but most of these levels should be NPC classes - Aristocrat and Experts for the most past - as they don't develop the "heroic" skills of PCs.
Nephet 07-06-04, 10:29 PM	Unless they come through a portal, PCs do not begin at high level. They begin at low level - like everybody else - and grow in power. As they grow in power, they will get noticed by certain forces. Given the selfish nature of those who hold power, they will not sit idly by an do nothing while this new group of upstarts makes it's way through the world upsetting the delicate balance. Some will offer alliances, others will seek extermination. If the PCs even have time to contemplate "taking over", it won't be easy - it will be an adventure of epic proportions.
Fanboy 07-07-04, 02:51 AM	You definatly have a point about high-level NPCs making natural leaders. I have a few cavets: 1. Leadership in a D&D world is also about charisma. Put as many ranks in diplomacy has you want, but with out good charisma you don't have the extra oomph to make peole follow you on a large scale. In face to face encounters you can make diplomacy checks, but your sure to fail a few, and people won't follow you with out a lot work that will never end. 2. There are other forms of power. In a feudal socity, land is everything. In a feudal sociaty the king owns all the land and gives out smaller chunks of land to nobles (by granting them titles). The King has something that, technicly, not even the PCs have: sovereignty. The PCs can kill the king, but they can't take sovereignty away from the royal bloodline without support from the pesants. Feudalism worked for as long as it did because everyone, from the peasent to the king, belived in it. People don't naturaly give-up what works. You assume that people will want to replace a low level king with a high level one as soon as the oportunity presents itself. This attitude couldn't be more wrong. People rarely make those kinds of changes, even on a small scale. Some real world examples: Japan holds elections, but the same party stays in power through all of it. Why? Because the Japanise don't want to entrust the government to a bunch of (in their opinion) newbies. In the US, incumbents win elections by huge landslides every year. (In general there is often some election, somewhere, every year.) Why? People, even in the US, don't like change. In the US, we don't elect the presidant of the US directly. Who ever wins the state sends party loyalists who vote for them in the Electoral College. The electoral college then votes for president. This antiquated system that has, in a handfull of times, resulted in the person who won the popular vote to not become Presidant of the US. Every 4 years or so, you see people say we should get rid of the system, but few people ever bother to change the system. Dispite all the contraversy over the last election, I didn't see any consetrated effort to get rid of the system. Why? guess why. When a system works, or, rather, is precived to be working, people will not change it voluntarily. You can, as you say, take the country by force. Taking a country by force, unless it is to free it from a repressive regime that people belive is failing, is evil. Even if you take it with the peoples consent, dealing with low-level rulers isn't as easy as you might think. Lets take your 19th level rogue/cleric with maxed out diplomacy. If the ruler of the next country over is an 8th level aristracrat, then you feel you will get your way because you can always get a higher diplomacy roll than he can. The problem with this set-up is that you may not deal directly with the King. The king may send an ambasasor to deal with you. This ambasador could be (and, if the king is smart, will be) an 19+ Paladin with maxed out diplomacy. Now your in trouble. You no longer suceed in every diplomacy roll, you are no longer the most powerful person there. Paladins live for their church and if the king is the head of that church (not unlikely) then they will serve him loyaly. Even if the king isn't the head of the church, then he will most likily will have close contact with the head of the church in his kingdom. Churches in Eberron have a military arm, clerics and paladins, and I'm willing to bet that the Sovergin Host Church has a lot invested in keeping the status quo. My point is that those IN power will know people WITH power, and those with power often have their own motives for keeping things the way they are. Indeed, it is that kind of power play that will provide so many adventures in Eberron.
Dauntless 07-07-04, 03:29 AM	Point everyone is missing: Diplomacy only works if someone is willing to listen. You won't be able to sweet talk a king into abandoning his throne, or convince a dragon to let you take her hoard, period.
Lord Arkhaven 07-07-04, 09:59 AM	I've made some significant changes in my homebrew campaign to reflect my opinions. I scrapped the Leadership feat and its system of gathering followers and cohorts. Our group found that it doesn't work at higher levels and it doesn't allow for empire building should there be a desire. Instead I wrote rules that allows any PC or NPC to gather followers on becoming 10th level. Based on the leader's level and the size of their stronghold they can attract followers of higher and higher level. I did this because I thought 10th level is a good threshold for a leader who can hold his or her own. A leader with the skill points and hit point to surivive a violent encounter or a mental duel - should it be necessary. I have no real beef with a leaders around this level and Eberron has some of those. I've heard what people have said here. The consensus is that most are content to leave the issue up to matters of bloodline and culture and avoid any kind of rule based logic. That's fine. It can work that way if one simply accepts it. Right now my headspace is to explore alternatives. Keith mentioned a leadership belief based off of good fantasy lit., which I think supports my argument rather than the other. Hero kings abound. Perhaps Aragorn and Theoden were not the highest level in Middle Earth... but they were high level. That in fact is my point. Sidenote: Someone mentioned Achillies and not wanting him to a ruler but really that's a moot point. Achillies was the son of Peleus, who was the son of Aeacus; King of Aegina. He was royalty, a Prince who never ascended to the throne because he died young. Tis another example of a Superhero Leader actually.
Zelgadas 07-07-04, 10:10 AM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven Keith mentioned a leadership belief based off of good fantasy lit., which I think supports my argument rather than the other. Hero kings abound. Perhaps Aragorn and Theoden were not the highest level in Middle Earth... but they were high level. That in fact is my point. Of note here is the fact that Aragorn only became king because he was Isildur's heir, not because he was a high-level uber-warrior. There's that tradition thing at work again.
Lord Arkhaven 07-07-04, 10:41 AM	Oh I understand WHY Aragorn was king. At the same time however he was super-hero from a super-race. You can have it both ways and in fantasy literature you very often do. What if we change the tack of the conversation to something related. How and why did bloodline become of major import in our world? Why did our society evolve to honour blue blood and the like? I can't speak for historical fact, but from a mythalogical point of view many legendary rulers were at least partially divine (Gilgamesh, numerous Greeks) or hailed from scions like David, Solomon, Noah (to name a few from the bible.) These bloodlines created the best of men, apparently, and so they were well suited to rule because of what we would now call a genetic edge. Did that ever hold true in the real world? Were the european and asian rulers of old ever considered or proved to be superior - stronger, smarter, of better character - than the common man. I'm sure they propogated that idea.
Roo 07-07-04, 11:11 AM	Winning a diplomacy check does not entitle someone to completely take over the other person's beliefs. What is said is more important than the die roll. You do not rule a country by force. You rule it by law, by love or some of both. I'm not entirely sure what angle you're looking at this from, because it really makes no sense in a logical form. You've ignored everything anyone says that clearly contradicts your opinion and taken out of context things that do support it. I could care less if your 19th level character beats the 3rd level Aristocrats diplomacy check by 30+ points - the Aristocrat is not going to betray his leige, his country or otherwise unless it was already something he/she was considering. Relying on die rolls & stats for your basis of right/wrong/power is sorely underestimating how real power is attained. Hitler was no crack shot, no martial weapons master - he was charismatic. Churchill, charismatic - he had the people behind him. Patton, same. While Patton may have had military training - he was probably not the equivalent of 6th level. He was leader. Of course, your argument will be - this is D&D, not real life. Well, EVERYTHING we know and believe is based on humans and history. This is human nature. This is how humans work, whether it be mideival or present day. People follow leaders because of their beliefs - not for "what level are you d00d?"
Lord Arkhaven 07-07-04, 11:33 AM	Originally posted by Roo I could care less if your 19th level character beats the 3rd level Aristocrats diplomacy check by 30+ points - the Aristocrat is not going to betray his leige, his country or otherwise unless it was already something he/she was considering. I wasn't the one who first brought up the Diplomacy rolls. Someone else statted out how high a first level diplomacy check could be and what they thought could be done with it. I merely used his own line of logic to illustrate how a higher level character would benefit more from that system. Leaders are followed because of their beliefs and how they run a country - I never said it wasn't so. All I've ever said was that having 10+ levels to back those beliefs up wouldn't hurt, and in a fantastic world that creates superheroes and has magic, it might very well be the norm.
Hellcow 07-07-04, 11:53 AM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven Perhaps Aragorn and Theoden were not the highest level in Middle Earth... but they were high level. That in fact is my point. But was Denethor? But *my* point was not that Theoden was a weak man; I agree, he was a hero. But Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli were all greater heroes. In Eberron, most of the rulers of nations are between 8th-13th level... and in Eberron that IS impressive. A 13th-level character is nothing to sneeze at! And yet, it is something that the players can hope to equal and exceed. Skimming over a few: Aerenal (12th, 16th) Aundair (8th) Breland (12th) Darguun (12th) Droaam (CR 16, CR 16, CR 17) Eldeen Reaches (20th) Karrnath (13th/CR 14) Thrane (18th) Valenar (13th) These are powerful and capable people, most of whom do pass your 10th level test. Looking to those that don't, Q'barra is a new frontier nation; Thrane has become a theocracy because of the weakness of the monarchy. In the case of Aundair, Aurala herself is not a powerful wizard, but she has the loyalty of many of the most skilled wizards in Khorvaire, who do respect the authority of the crown -- again, it's Merlin and King Arthur, or Gandalf in LOTR. Merlin chose to serve the rightful king, not to use his power to seize the throne. Gandalf could have taken the ring and become a new dark lord, and yet he didn't. As has been said before, people look to leaders for stability; if your society is based around the most powerful people killing whoever is in charge whenever they can, you're not going to end up with a very sophisticated civilization.
Roo 07-07-04, 11:56 AM	Ascension by Arm-Wrestling eh? Might makes right? :)
DreadholdEscapee 07-07-04, 11:58 AM	I am not sure I understand the argument here. The fact that most NPCs are not high level is an Eberron feature, not a flaw. It focuses the spotlight on the PCs. The NPCs are background and flavor for the PCs adventures. The leaders are not meant to be XP fodder for the players. PC classes are rare. They are supposed to dominate. They do not because adventurers have a high attrition rate. Xen'drik takes it's toll. Lord Arkhaven: If your Players are bent on world conquest; good for them. Let them mow down hordes of lvl1 Warriors. Then let the dragons, daelkyr, Lords of Dust or Champions of Droamm rise up during the chaos. Another conjunction with Xoriat or Quori will give them a challenge. Rebels plotting assassinations will hamper them. Sounds like an easy campaign to run and easily supported by the campaign. Of course, the Houses won't like the disruption in trade. They might align other power players against you.
The Steve 07-07-04, 01:31 PM	Also, if the PCs want to try and take over the country/world etc. killing lots of lvl1 warriors isn't that easy even by straight DnD mechanics - lots of arrows all hitting at the same time after an ambush (surprise etc etc) from the low-level enemy get you into massive damage, grappling against the horde who overrun your position, etc etc. One of the good aspects of the 3.5e combat mechanics is the fact that it's not easy to wipe out hundreds of enemies in one fell swoop. Personally I feel the social and political strata in Eberron seem much more playable and intuitively reasonable than any previous DnD settings I've read, butif you don't like it yourself then ring the changes - it's your world after all.
Lord Arkhaven 07-07-04, 01:38 PM	I don't have a kill-happy group. They work within the law and are respected by the powers that be. For the most part I can accept the Eberron leadership base - if I take the advice of people here and just put my faith in tradition. Still there are a few who just don't jive with me. The 4th level character who is in charge of Argonith is too low level. That is a very prestigious piece of military hardware - like an aircraft carrier. I would like to see a more seasoned veteran in charge. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. A PC of 4th or 5th level may potentially want equal treatment. I would have to stonewall this character if it didn't fit in the story. When asked why I would have to fall back on the arguments of bloodline, tradition, blah blah blah. Basically that's just window dressing for me saying NO for a situation that isn't covered in the rules. It's possible for the NPC but not for the PC. Might does indeed make right in some societies. Do I want the 13th level hobgoblin barbarian character to wail on Haruuc and take his position? Do I want to run that game? Understand that D&D give MINIMAL guidelines for running a game where the player's run countries. If I do then the low NPC levels is a good thing! If I don't there is a potential for disruption.
Roo 07-07-04, 01:49 PM	"When asked why I would have to fall back on the arguments of bloodline, tradition, blah blah blah. Basically that's just window dressing for me saying NO for a situation that isn't covered in the rules. It's possible for the NPC but not for the PC." This is not the case at all. Just because Jack is level 3 and Captain of the Watch, and Bob (PC) is level 6, but not - you don't have to make up anything. Bob doesn't just get to HOP in the position of Captain of the Watch, or act like a spoiled kid when he isn't put in the position. You really do have to stop thinking in terms of levels. That's meta-gaming, and anyone can metagame ANYTHING apart. There's an old saying, don't confuse your rank with my authority. An E-3 can bust an Officer (O-2,3, whatever) for drunk driving on a military base. Why on earth do you need hard and fast rules for how a society behaves? Most societies, even back then are NOT based on might makes right. Political Might, perhaps - but political might is not based on 'your level'. I used to need rules for everything, to have to show my players rules for everything -- that was in 1985. I grew up, my players grew up. We learned that some things are the way they are because of human nature & society. You don't get to be King without the bloodline. Them's the rules. You don't like it? Tough. It has absolutely ZERO to do with "level" and all to do with influence (charisma), blood, hard work (leadership) & dedication to an ideal or organization. If you'll only be convinced if it's a rule in a book, then I'm sad to say you're not likely going to have a fun time in Eberron, perhaps Dark Sun is more up your alley. You can't have intrigue if you have to constantly deal with players whining about why so-and-so is in Position X but only 5th level. Experience is much more valuable than experience points. Don't confuse the two.
Roo 07-07-04, 01:57 PM	"The 4th level character who is in charge of Argonith is too low level. That is a very prestigious piece of military hardware - like an aircraft carrier. I would like to see a more seasoned veteran in charge. " The Captain, on an aircraft carrier may have never seen a naval battle in his entire career - quite likely even. Expert 4, 5? A Navy Seal, special ops in Gulf War 1 & 2... Fighter level 8, 9? Is the Navy seal going to get to be the Captain of the Aircraft Carrier? No. He's higher level though... A world champion kick boxer, Monk level 12? Does he get to be captain of the Aircraft Carrier? If you'd like to see a more seasoned veteran, fine - but you're going to run into lots of questions when you start changing the paradigm. NPC's do not earn experience like PC's do. Like Keith said, otherwise, there'd be a horde of 20th level veterans out there.
Lord Arkhaven 07-07-04, 02:04 PM	You really do have to stop thinking in terms of levels. That's meta-gaming, and anyone can metagame ANYTHING apart. And there it is. The rules don't necessarily support the system but both must remain intact, so don't look at either too deeply. Levels are as invisible in my game as yours, but they're there and they affect the outcome of a great many events. In my game I am trying to incorporate that fact into the fabric of society. Understand that I'm not running a 'conquor or be conquored' roleplaying game. I'll leave that to the vids. What I am uncomfortable with is players surpassing important NPCs very quickly, after a few adventures in fact.
Zelgadas 07-07-04, 02:06 PM	I also don't see why those characters being low-level is going to invite the players to attack them so they can take over the country. Do the players know what level Aurala is? If they do, that's not really information that they should use in-character. And it's not really that hard to make the players think that someone is more powerful than they really are. And it's not even like they're not powerful characters. In comparison to the majority of Breland, Boranel is pretty darn powerful. Heck, 90% of the population of the country is probably 3rd level and below. Not only that, but the regents have significant political power that cannot be quantified easily in terms of levels and statistics. Not everything boils down to "I'm Level 18 and he's level 12, so I win". Someone said earlier in this thread (don't remember who) that the PCs aren't going to be the only high-level characters running around in the world; I think that this is true, but only to an extent. This is not Forgotten Realms, where every city has half a dozen 18+ level characters hanging out. There may be a few high level characters out there (Oalian springs to mind), but they should be extremely rare. I firmly believe in Eberron's conceit that the PCs should be special, should be touched by something extra. The fact that they can attain high levels in PC classes represents the fact that they are touched by destiny in some way; that should hold true for any NPCs that can do the same. If every ruler is a high-level character, it cheapens that concept somewhat.
Hellcow 07-07-04, 02:59 PM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven Might does indeed make right in some societies. Do I want the 13th level hobgoblin barbarian character to wail on Haruuc and take his position? Even here, I would have to disagree. Killing Haruuc would not automatically make you the ruler of Darguun; most likely it would herald the collapse of the nation into utter chaos. From page 154, "As his strength fades and his battle prowess loses potency, his remarkable skil with words becomes increasingly instrumental in maintaining control over the tribes." Haruuc is skilled, but he's also very old. In addition, the chieftains respect Haruuc for having the vision to forge the nation in the first place. If you just kill him, that's not going to make them follow you -- it will probably make them hate you. The Rhukaan Taash would not rest until they had vengeance upon you. The other clans would see the death of Haruuc as a sign of the weakness of the overall alliance, and each chieftain would put forth his own claim. Unless you had a large enough army to enforce your rule across the land -- something even Haruuc has trouble doing -- I would guess that it would be the Kech Sharaat who would emerge as the new leaders, having a large, disciplined military force and the heritage of Dhakaan to use as a rallying point for the loyalty of the lowland clans. On the other hand, if you want to make the conquest of Darguun part of your game, it probably is the best target; it would be an easier setting than conquering Breland. But it wouldn't just be a matter of killing Haruuc; you'd need to have established a strong network of alliances among the clans before you made your move, so they were ready to wrest power from the Rhukaan Taash in a swift and decisive manner. Also bear in mind that the hobgoblins are *not*, as a rule, barbarians; unless he has wiser advisors, the barbarian will likely be seen as a savage and illiterate lout, not a symbol of the glorious empire the hobgoblins hope to one day restore. And I have to agree with Roo -- in the real world, it is often the case that the officers do not have as much combat experience as their soldiers. But going to the general and saying "I could kill Captain Samuel -- so give me his job" isn't going to hold much water. If you feel that's how the setting should work, it certainly is your right to change it -- but I have trouble seeing anything like the level of civilization in Eberron with that degree of anarchy.
Hellcow 07-07-04, 03:04 PM	Double Post. Happy Birthday!
Hellcow 07-07-04, 03:11 PM	Originally posted by Zelgadas Someone said earlier in this thread (don't remember who) that the PCs aren't going to be the only high-level characters running around in the world; I think that this is true, but only to an extent. This is not Forgotten Realms, where every city has half a dozen 18+ level characters hanging out. Correct, and something that will be addressed at some point. Queen Aurala can undoubtedly call on a 12th-level wizard, but an 18th-level wizard is a figure of legend (like Mordain the Fleshweaver)... and even a 12th-level wizard will most likely be a local celebrity. With that said, if the DM wants to add in new high-level characters -- say, NPC counterparts of the PCs, like Halas Martain from Chapter 9 of the ECS -- these could be whatever level suits the needs of the story.
DreadholdEscapee 07-07-04, 03:23 PM	Previously Lord Arkhaven said: "What I am uncomfortable with is players surpassing important NPCs very quickly, after a few adventures in fact." Why? What does it matter if the players can take down the the Captain of the Argonth in a single round? Why would they want to? What would the repercussions be to that act? There are not going to be answers to those questions in the rule books. There shouldn't be. Level is not an indication of power. Does a 14th level Commoner compete with a 7th level wizard? You seem to favor stats over story to control your players. To the 4th level Queen of Aundair, the PCs will always be seen as a threat or a tool, never an equal, even when they are 20th level. The low level of NPCs in power is not going to lead to a disruption. If the players decide to attack the Captain of the Argonth, and defeat him and his whole crew, what's the problem. They now have a huge artifact that they may or may not be able to control. They have earned the enmity of the Kingdom of Breland. They have become infamous throughout Khorvaire by virtue of the Korranberg Chronicles reports of the power mad party on Zilargos borders. Sentinel Marshals have been Dispatched to deal with the problem. The King's Citadel will want the party's collective heads. Now you have plenty of levelled enemies showing the might of the low level NPCs.
Roo 07-07-04, 03:38 PM	As a parent, I see a good corrolation here. I can't make you do something, but I can make you wish you had. the converse is true for a DM... I can't stop you from doing something, but I can make you wish you hadn't.
TarlSS 07-07-04, 04:11 PM	I think I was the one who stated that the PCs weren't the only ones with high levels in the world. The thing is, if high-level NPCs are to be so rare, what exactly would 18th level players be doing on Eberron? The high level NPC's don't neccessarily have to be Khoirvairites ( Khoirvariens?) They could be strange things from Xen'drick, Agents from the Dreaming Dark or the Lords of Dust, or NPCs possessed by fiends and celestials. Plenty of those types would have interests in maintaining order in Khoirvaire as all. You'd be surprised how nasty a group of assasins or theives can be in the middle of the night, Sleight of Hand a particular skill that works well against anyone of level. You'll be surprised how easily a level 5 theif can steal a 20th level warrior blind. Sheathes, Rings, pins, brooches, and jewels can all be easily swiped with a DC 20 Slight of Hand check. With a little House Orien assistance, get aways would be ridiculously easy as well.
Roo 07-07-04, 04:21 PM	He's not saying there's not challenges for high level players. That's EASILY done with Xen'drik (no c), The Lords of Dust, Xoriat approching coterminus, Daelkyr, etc... What he's saying is, low levels don't deserve positions of power. "The thing is, if high-level NPCs are to be so rare, what exactly would 18th level players be doing on Eberron?" Changing the world. As they should be.
Hellcow 07-07-04, 04:21 PM	Originally posted by TarlSS The high level NPC's don't neccessarily have to be Khoirvairites ( Khoirvariens?) They could be strange things from Xen'drick, Agents from the Dreaming Dark or the Lords of Dust, or NPCs possessed by fiends and celestials. Correct. Again, in my mind the goal is to replicate a novel or movie. There should always be villains of a level to threaten the party -- just few allies. However, just because the Lord of Blades gets to be 18th level (as I've said before, I'd have him advance to keep pace with the party) doesn't mean he's going to conquer Breland; a) that's not his goal and b) it's still the sort of thing that is very difficult for one person to do, no matter how powerful. Instead he'll delve deeper into Xen'drik in search of ancient weapons or come up with more deadly eldritch machines, and so on. So yes, there should always be villains to match the characters, and between the Dreaming Dark, Lords of Dust, Cults of the Dragon Below, Daughters of Sora Kell, malevolent members of the Chamber... there are certainly options. it's just that the incidental characters should not reach too high -- one of the main points of having heroes in the first place is to have them be able to take on threats too great for the rest of the world to handle.
ENHenry 07-07-04, 04:41 PM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven ...What I am uncomfortable with is players surpassing important NPCs very quickly, after a few adventures in fact. PC's don't become 4th level characters after a "few" adventures. 8 to 10, at least, but not two or three. By 4th level, they SHOULD be distinguished as up-and-coming, even if this means that should they get into a bar-brawl with a commander of an aircraft carrier they will beat him. It means that they are being recognized for their skill, and called upon to handle the kinds of jobs that skilled professionals are asked to handle. I'm not sure I see why it should be a concern that they could attain positions of authority - I see it as a great opportunity for plot hooks and role-playing, not a troublesome problem. Why NOT offer them positions of lesser authority at 5th or 6th level - it means that they are recognized, and they now have RESPONSIBILITIES to live up to. If they don't, then they won't have the authority anymore. Simple.
Templar_Prime 07-07-04, 07:23 PM	Um...yes, PCs should reach 4th level after about 4-6 adventures. Otherwise the game gets bogged down and there's no sense of progression for their character concepts. But that's another discussion. What people are missing when it comes to the levels of major NPCs in Eberon is that they just got done with a war that lasted a touch over a century. Most of the NPCs are described at veterans of that war, with a few that participated in the entire thing (King Kaius comes to mind). That being said, they are on average 10 levels below what they should be, given that experience. A truth about war is that you either get very good, very quick, or you die. A more ideal spread would be to have a 'gap' between about 4th level and about 12th, where few NPCs are in terms of progression. This would separate the people that were active during the war from those that only caught the last days, if at all. So the 'common folk' won't advance much, fine. That's one more thing that separate adventurers from 'normal' people. But at the same time, saying that an NPC would never advance above 1st harkens back to the bad old days of ADD2nd when you were very lucky if your character *lived* past 1st level.
Captain One 07-07-04, 07:40 PM	Just look at the PCs as sort of super heroes. They have powers that 99% of the population could only dream of. What stops them from taking over countries in the comic books? Oh yeah... they're heroes, that's why. Villains have done it from time to time, but they've always been thwarted by either heroes, or normals banding together to take them down. I know comic book heroes and D&D characters are not exactly the same thing, but it's along the same lines. And if class levels are how you measure a character's power, then you are absolutely correct in your way of thinking. No argument in the world will convince you otherwise if this is your thought process. I for one feel that even a 1st level boy prince type who controls a nation can make things very difficult for me if he wants to, especially within his own lands. That's the way I think of a nation's leader. He has much more power than what a simple number shows. Hell, even a character's level does not mean everything when comparing two characters. One 12th level character class could beat the snot out of other 12th level characters of other classes (I won't go into which class vs which class as I don't want to start that discusssion here). It doesn't mean they are necessarily more powerful.
zcthu3 07-07-04, 07:50 PM	A 'veteren' of the war is not necessarily going to be high leveled although remembering that a large number of the major NPCs are around 12th level which is high-mid levels anyway. If you are assuming that XP is gained in combat I would propose that your average enemy 'soldier' is a 1st level commoner, the more elite are 1st level warriors. Regardless they are CR 1/2. By the time you are at levels 4-8 the XP for killing these guys is starting to decline and you are needing more and more XP to go up levels. You are also assuming that these NPCs are doing actual fighting. These are the Kings and Queens of the world. If these characters are 'veteren' of the wars they are more likely to be generals rather than combatants. They will be getting XP for overcoming the opposing general (who may also be low level) rather than the soldiers on the ground. You are also right that the wars last centuries - with intermittent conflicts between states. It was not one big-long battle. There were periods of relative peace between some states. You are also assuming that these NPCs were at all the battles - they wouldn't be. That is what other officers are for; you have an incursion of goblinoid mercenaries from Cyre? You send you general and army to deal with it. You don't go yourself; however you lived through the period of the wars. You probably did go into battle occassionally. You say the mayhem, the slaughter and the pointless death. I would consider anyone who witnessed that a 'veteren' of the wars, whether they are a 1st level commoner or a 12th level king.
Hellcow 07-07-04, 08:25 PM	Originally posted by Templar_Prime That being said, they are on average 10 levels below what they should be, given that experience. A truth about war is that you either get very good, very quick, or you die. Hmm. So how does this theory bear out with, say, an orcish society where the people are engaged in constant warfare? Why aren't they all 20th level? Looking to Lord of the Rings again, what about the people of Gondor who had been engaged in skirmishes with Mordor for generations, or the Rohirrim? Yes, they were capable and tough. But do you really think that each individual soldier -- or each individual orc -- would be 10th level? If not, where do you draw the line? Ultimately, it's all a question of where you set your scale. If you say that the average soldier with combat experience is a 5th-level fighter, then yes, for your Rambo character to be properly impressive he needs to be 20th level. If I say that the average soldier with combat experience is a 2nd-level warrior, than the 5th-level fighter is going to mop the floors with a mob of them. So we're operating on entirely different wavelengths. Because I see the 2nd-level warrior as a capable combatant, I do believe that the 5th-level fighter is cool -- and that the 20th-level fighter will be immortalized in song and story and feared throughout the land. If you think that everyone who served in the Last War should be 10th-level, clearly you'll have trouble with the NPCs as designed; and if you want the army of 10,000 10th-level soldiers, go ahead and make it that way! But as it stands, given the demographics of Eberron (something that will be officially addressed in the near future), you're lucky to find a 10th-level fighter in a city. One last thought (and then I'm really going to stop commenting on this thread, since we're clearly going to have to agree to disagree): Eberron is inspired by the pulps. When Indiana Jones is fighting the Nazis, it doesn't matter that they are trained soldiers who have probably seen more combat than he has. He's the hero. He can do things that are fundamentally impossible -- and in my opinion, by the time you get to the teens, that's what you're talking about. A 4th-6th level character is an amazing and dangerous individual who can take on a dozen 1st-level warriors and hope to survive -- do you really think the average skilled soldier needs to be better than that?
Bloodtide_the_Red 07-08-04, 03:12 AM	This is a direct result of all the people that whine 'Fr is no fun because of all the high level NPC's'. So for Eberron they weaken things down. So King Sebastes ir'Kesslan is a lowly Art 4/Rag 1. Compared to even the lowest of the FR rules, that are at least twice that level, or more. The realy fun part though.....it woun't last. Sooner or later, they will have to add high level NPC's, both as heros and villians. Then there will be novels about them and Bam, the Fr level problem is right back again. BT
Hellcow 07-08-04, 03:37 AM	Originally posted by Bloodtide_the_Red So King Sebastes ir'Kesslan is a lowly Art 4/Rag 1. Compared to even the lowest of the FR rules, that are at least twice that level, or more. This is intentional. Like the Queen of Thrane, King Sebastes is a less effective leader than many of the other rulers of Khorvaire. This is one reason that Q'barra is a dangerous and unstable frontier region, and why the Church holds more power than the monarchy in Thrane. King Sebastes rules because his ancestors established the colony in Q'barra, but he may not be up to the challenge; if you want civil unrest, Q'barra is a good place for it. The realy fun part though.....it woun't last. Sooner or later, they will have to add high level NPC's, both as heros and villians. Then there will be novels about them and Bam, the Fr level problem is right back again. We'll see, won't we? There will certainly be more powerful villains; these already exist, and simply weren't statted in the CSB. The Devourer of Dreams, for example. There need to be powerful villains to counter the player characters -- and villains can fight the PCs regardless of hether the PCs choose to be heroes or villains. But the relative lack of high level NPC allies -- or watchdogs, as some people see them -- is an intentional part of the game and the tone of the setting. Again, in the pulps, the heroes are exceptional people; Doc Savage isn't going to get punched out by the president. Time will tell, but I would be surprised to see that change.
Sancus 07-08-04, 09:43 AM	Part of the flavour of Eberron though, Keith, is the fact that alignments are more of a grey area, no? That implies that the PCs need NPCs that *could* be their allies. They need *peers* who are not outright hostile and completely evil(monsters), for the grey area to mean anything. If the PCs are by far the most powerful force in Eberron apart from the monsters, that's just rather boring, honestly, because who is to challenge them outside of the monster bashing? And why would they care, anyhow, about ******* people off who are far below their level and using NPC classes to boot? While I agree that the PCs should be heroes and not have to depend on anyone else, I don't think that that equates to a necessity for a lack of reasonably high-level NPCs. I mean, there are a lot of high-level evil things in Eberron, aren't there? Vol, for one, and the sourcebook says there are 6 CR 20 Daelkyrs. That's just off the top of my head, and you say so yourself: There will certainly be more powerful villains; these already exist, and simply weren't statted in the CSB. But one party of four adventurers(the 'average' D&D PnP group) can't counter dozens of high-level opponents. And that's assuming that the PCs _are_ high level. Which they may not be. So what happens before the PCs are high-level? Eberron gets overrun? And even if they are high level, how does one party of four adventurers fight so many enemies? More importantly than the "PCs being the center of the universe", IMO, is for the world to make sense. And a world where the PCs are far and away the most powerful force really doesn't make that much sense, and I don't think it's that interesting either, particularly, since the PCs should have challenging NPC "opponents" who are not monsters, and may or may not be opponents depending on how the PCs deal with them.
Zelgadas 07-08-04, 10:05 AM	Originally posted by Sancus Part of the flavour of Eberron though, Keith, is the fact that alignments are more of a grey area, no? That implies that the PCs need NPCs that *could* be their allies. They need *peers* who are not outright hostile and completely evil(monsters), for the grey area to mean anything. If the PCs are by far the most powerful force in Eberron apart from the monsters, that's just rather boring, honestly, because who is to challenge them outside of the monster bashing? And why would they care, anyhow, about ******* people off who are far below their level and using NPC classes to boot? While I agree that the PCs should be heroes and not [b]have to depend on anyone else, I don't think that that equates to a necessity for a lack of reasonably high-level NPCs. Why would the world leaders be the peers of the PCs, though? Unless the PCs, themselves, are royalty, they don't run in the same circles, they don't have the same kind of status, and they simply aren't going to *be* peers, regardless of level. The true peers of the PCs are going to be other adventurers, and these are pretty much left up to the DM to stat out. Another thing that keeps getting brought up is the question: "why would PCs worry about angering those who are lower level than they?" My answer to that is, outside of metagaming, why would the PCs know what level they are? And why does that level mean so much? Do you worry about angering the king because you're afraid that he's going to kill you personally? No, you worry about it because he has legions of warriors at his disposal who, despite their being lower level than the PCs, have the advantage of sheer numbers. My point is that the world leaders are just that: world leaders. They can be used as allies or foils for the PCs, but ultimately they are neither the major heroes or villains in the world. They are there to run countries, not fight the PCs. Of course, if you want them to fight the PCs, you can always increase their level. Personally, I don't forsee regicide being that big a problem in my campaigns, though, because the PCs will be more focused on the real villain.
DreadholdEscapee 07-08-04, 10:11 AM	Sancus, Levels are not the end all and be all of power. I don't understand why everyone believes that all struggles are straight up fights based on CR. You do not need to elevate the "Power Players" to even or greater footing with the PCs. The PCs will be few and the population at large will be many. If you are playing a "kill 'em all and take all the loot" campaign, you are going to wind up having amassed a large amount of low level enemies with better resources than the players. A ton of magewrights and artificers will crank out anti-PC magic items. House Cannith might give up some of its doomsday weapons of the Last War. The PCs will be enjoying an existence of constant battle and harrassment until they are worn down or the world is destroyed. Either way the denizens of Khyber dance a jig. The low level 'Power Players' have been holding off powerful threats for years with the help of a few Nietchean superbeings. The PCs would be another threat that would be resisted. Grim
Lord Arkhaven 07-08-04, 12:34 PM	I'd like to quote Hellcow from the page before... Correct. Again, in my mind the goal is to replicate a novel or movie. There should always be villains of a level to threaten the party -- just few allies. However, just because the Lord of Blades gets to be 18th level (as I've said before, I'd have him advance to keep pace with the party) doesn't mean he's going to conquer Breland; a) that's not his goal and b) it's still the sort of thing that is very difficult for one person to do, no matter how powerful. Instead he'll delve deeper into Xen'drik in search of ancient weapons or come up with more deadly eldritch machines, and so on. Here's the thing. If a PC or NPC (like say, The Lord of Blades) wants to conquor Breland with his warforged he will do so if you play that fight out with the information that has been given in the book. The only thing saving Breland is what you write into the story yourself, not what's been given to you. You say he's going to explore Xen'drik instead. Why? It seems like that's the answer to what every high level character should be doing in Eberron. Is it to gain power? Well he already has more than most every other notable NPC in print. When is enough enough? If they have designs to change the world more to their liking - and everyone does to a certain degree - then why haven't they got on with it? It's not like there is a lot there to stop them. It seems that what keeps Khorvaire stable is what is to be assumed, or what has been written between the lines. Keith was right in that regarding this topic a great many of us will have to agree to disagree.
Hellcow 07-08-04, 12:51 PM	Originally posted by Sancus That implies that the PCs need NPCs that *could* be their allies. They need *peers* who are not outright hostile and completely evil(monsters), for the grey area to mean anything. Certainly, and they have these. Up through 12th level, they have all the peers you could possibly want. pick anyone. Above 12th level, they begin to be, well, peerless. They are now the people legends are written about. They are the people who can face the challenges no one else can. This is supposed to be a big deal. If the bad guy shows up, the king can't just say "Don't worry, men, I'll handle this personally" -- he needs to come to you. Even then, there *are* existing trustworthy peers. Oalian. Jaela. Certainly there are others. But look to the two of them as an example, there are reasons they need the help of the party. Jaela is the most powerful cleric in Khorvaire -- if she stays in Flamekeep. Beyond that, the whole point of the grayness of alignment is you cna't be certain what people will do. One example of this would be the Chamber. This is a whole cabal of dragons, and as such runs all the way up to Great Wyrm CR. These are certainly people with the power to match the PCs. But you never know what they are going to do. They are not driven by the interests of Khorvaire: they are driven by their own interest in the Prophecy. Sometimes they may hire the party. Sometimes they may work with the party, if they are powerful enough to justify this. But it is just as likely that they will oppose the party, either directly or indirectly. Similarly, the Daughters of Sora Kell. These hags rule a nation of monsters. They ARE monsters. But they too have far reaching plans, driven by Sora Teraza's prophetic visions. They may very well offer advice or assistance -- but do you really WANT their assistance? Do you trust them? This is what the greyness of alignment is all about. Evil can do good, and good can do evil. There are powerful people out there who may provide assistance. But the PCs may have to question these allies, and most importantly, they can't just say "The Daelkyr are coming back? Eh, let's leave that to the Chamber"... for all they know, the Chamber want it to happen. The Lord of Blades could be an ally under the right curcumstances -- but you know that when you meet again, things will be different. And as DreadholdEscapee has said, level is NOT the end-all measure of a useful ally. House Cannith may not have an 18th level artificer. But having House Cannith as your ally could be a huge advantage at any level. Looking for a magic item for a crucual situation? They've already got it, or can make it if they don't. Need an army? If you have close ties with House Denieth, they could provide one. Power in Eberron is about more than just the level of an individual character. If the PCs are by far the most powerful force in Eberron apart from the monsters, that's just rather boring, honestly, because who is to challenge them outside of the monster bashing? If House Cannith and House Thuranni teamed up? I have no doubt they could cleaned the clock of your high-level group. Take a team of 10th-12th level characters. Arm them with any magic item that can be produced by a CL of up to, say 15 (remembering that artificers get a +2 CL), and choose those items specifically with the players in mind -- bane weaponry and other things that take into account their weaknesses. Use stealth, disguise, etc to get the drop on them. If you as DM couldn't defeat a random group of 18th-level characters under those circumstances -- again, taking into account surprise, planning, and knowledge of standard tactics (because at 18th level, people should know about the party) I would be very disappointed. And why would they care, anyhow, about ******* people off who are far below their level and using NPC classes to boot? I find this to be an astonishing attitude. Look at Frodo. Aragorn. King Arthur. The Shadow. Superman, for crying out loud. Does Superman say "Oh, I could kill most of the people in Metropolis by spitting at them. So why don't I?" OK, it's a reasonable response to say "Yes, but he is, literraly, a superhero. My players are not that sort of moral paragon." But are they really just heartless jerks who can only be motivated by fear? And as has already been said, if that's so, you overestimate the need for matching level when it comes to striking fear into someone. You may be able to fight an army of 1st level characters. But look back to the Thuranni death squad. They don't have hundreds of 12th-level characters. They may not have any 18th level characters. But they can certainly put together a team of 12th level characters if they need to, and you'd be surpirsed what they could accomplish. (There's actually a section in a book I wrote, Crime & Punishment, which is specifically about bringing higher-level characters to justice.) By the time you're into your epics, then there are no humans who are your peer... unless you, the DM, want to add them. Epic level characters have the power to shape the world, and if they existed they should be doing that. If you want to try to shape the world, go ahead. But again, you'll still have to deal with the Dreaming Dark (and while we're at it, anyone could be a mind seed of the Devourer of Dreams), the Chamber, etc, etc. I don't think that that equates to a necessity for a lack of reasonably high-level NPCs. And where we differ is that I see 12th-level as reasonably high level. the sourcebook says there are 6 CR 20 Daelkyrs. Just for the sake of clarity, the sourcebook says there are 6 Daelkyr, all of whom are at least CR 20. They can have up to 50 HD, so they can be as tough as you need them to be. So what happens before the PCs are high-level? Eberron gets overrun?. The Daelkyr are bound in Khyber, along with the most powerful members of the Lords of Dust. It's up to the DM when and if they get released. But the point is, the power players that are out there have more respect for the little people than you seem to. Vol doesn't just outright try to conquer Karrnath because a) what does she gain by doing so, b) even if she could conquer it, how would she both maintain control of a hostile nation and fight off the Church of the Silver Flame, which would certainly turn it's full strength against her? Instead she works carefully, using the war to build her support, allowing the necromancers of the Order of the Emerald Claw to research eldritch machines and other things that could give her an unbeatable edge. The Lord of Blades is, at the start of the game, only 12th level, and only one person; heck, if it came down to it, Kaius of Karrnath could take him in a fight! he'll engage in his schemes, but again, he'll be careful about them. The Chamber, even when it is up to no good, isn't interested in conquest. The Dreaming Dark is, but a) also prefers to act subtly, using psychological warfare instead of bloodshed and b) is made up of immortals, and can take a century to act if need be. Same with the Lords of Dust. Also, as has been said before, there are undoubtedly great heroes that have been lost in the Last War. There's an adventure for you right there, if you want bigger hero NPCs -- go recover the soul of the 20th-level wizard from the Lair of the Keeper, where it has been trapped. Furthermore, the war has weakened Khorvaire as a nation. The Daughters of Sora Kell have just risen to power. The Heirs of Dhakaan are stirring in Darguun. The Dreaming Dark is intensifying its focus. All this is begining to happen now, and it's happening now for a reason. The heroes who would have dealt with it in the past are gone -- the world needs new heroes, and that -- hopefully -- is you. I don't think it's that interesting either, particularly, since the PCs should have challenging NPC "opponents" who are not monsters, and may or may not be opponents depending on how the PCs deal with them. Obviously we couldn't agree more. These already do exist; as I've said, you've got the Chamber, the Daughters of Sora Kell, the Lords of Dust... almost any villain should have the potential to be an ally under the right circumstances, but not an ally you can turn your back on. But where we completely disagree is your believe that to be a challenging opponent absolutely requires matching level. As far as I'm concerned, any of the dragonmark houses will make a valuable ally or dangerous enemy, even if they have no individual members who match you. A king should never even have to think about fighting you personally, but you should certainly take him seriously. Even poor 5th-level Sebastes should not be dismissed so lightly. If you can't use the power that these people wield to threaten your party, I think you should take a look at what organized lower level characters can accomplish. And as has already been said, even wizards need to sleep sometimes... or at least get enough peaceful rest to regain spells.
Zelgadas 07-08-04, 12:53 PM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven I'd like to quote Hellcow from the page before... Here's the thing. If a PC or NPC (like say, The Lord of Blades) wants to conquor Breland with his warforged he will do so if you play that fight out with the information that has been given in the book. The only thing saving Breland is what you write into the story yourself, not what's been given to you. Why do you assume that this is so? Because the Lord of Blades is of higher level than King Boranel? Does the entire battle come down to a fight between the two? The Lord of Blades could very well march against Breland, but very likely Breland has a larger standing army (the LoB uses only warforged, after all, and they make up a very small percentage of the total population of Khorvaire). Not only that, but it's not like Breland exists in a vacuum. Boranel has allies that will likely come to his aid (especially against someone like the LoB, who is a threat to everyone who isn't warforged), and the Lord of Blades doesn't really have any allies to speak of, aside from his warforged minions (who we've already established are a smaller force). As it stands, at the beginning of the campaign, the LoB doesn't really have a secure enough position to march against any of the Five Nations. That could change later in the campaign, and that's where the PCs come in. If Boranel was powerful enough to defeat the LoB himself, and had enough support to defeat his army, why would he even need the PCs? And that's the fundamental problem that I see with having high-level NPCs all over the place. If everyone is more powerful than the PCs (at least, until the PCs reach high levels, too), then the PCs aren't making much of a difference in the world. The power players will fight amongst themselves, and the PCs will be relegated to taking care of much smaller things. It reduces the importance of the PCs in the world. If the PCs have the ability to surpass the power players, then there's a built-in reason for said power players to call on the PCs for aid. They're the heroes, they should be special.
ENHenry 07-08-04, 12:55 PM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven Here's the thing. If a PC or NPC (like say, The Lord of Blades) wants to conquor Breland with his warforged he will do so if you play that fight out with the information that has been given in the book. I have to respectfully disagree: No, he won't. The Law of Averages would cook his tin-plated goose in the end. He might leave a stream of carnage from Lyrenton to Wroat that looked like Sherman's March to the Sea, but in the end, he doesn't have spell resistance, people and seige machines hit on a 20, and he's got finite hit points just like everyone else in Khorvaire. He's got to play it sneaky, just like Vol and the Rakshasas. (What a name for a Rock Band!) That leaves time for the PC's to cast about, find their way and their place, uncover the threat, and find how to expose it. Just like THEIR DARNED JOBS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE. :)
Hellcow 07-08-04, 12:57 PM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven If a... NPC (like say, The Lord of Blades) wants to conquor Breland with his warforged he will do so if you play that fight out with the information that has been given in the book. You really think so? A 12th-level warforged, with an army of 1,000 lower-level warforged at his disposal, against a) a 12th-level king, b) an army of hundreds of thousands, c) a hostile populace he could never hope to control, d) the forces the dragonmark houses and other nations would bring to bear, as this would be seen as a threat to everyone's interests... yes, on this we will have to agree to disagree. I'd buy that he might be able stomp the existing kingdom of Q'barra, though again, with a thousand people he still won't be able to maintain order there, but that's about it -- there's no way I see him as having the forces necessary to conquer and hold any of the four nations of Old Gallifar. Hence the research into Xen'drik, looking for eldritch machines, artifacts, and ways to improve the power of the soldiers he has, while recruiting more soldiers. In time, maybe he can get that power. But now? I don't see this at all. He could cause a lot of death and destruction, and then he'd ultimately lose the vast majority of his followers and possibly be killed himself... an unwise investment all around.
Ormus 07-08-04, 03:01 PM	As I said in my first post in this thread back on page one, I don't see the problem here. In every other game, Eberron and otherwise that I run, I level up NPCs(at least some) as the PCs advance in level too. It makes perfect sense. The world is not stagnant afterall. NPCs go around do stuff as well. :devil:
kildaere007 07-08-04, 03:33 PM	Keith, as I see you posting here I will add a related question that I came across while building NPC's for my players to encounter. I am fine with the kings and leaders levels and am totally on board with the PC's being the big stars of my story...but...(and here is the related question). They are going to want to outfit themselves with magic items (wands, rings etc - to make use of that new multi-ring Feat!). Are these for sale? Are most "old" items from ages past? Should they need to look to the party Artificer to make them all? I see that Craft wand is 7th level for an artificer and that Forge Ring is 14th!! It will be a while for the party artificer to help them out. Who is assumed to be making these items? Other adventurers? House Cannith? Are wands and the like just super rare in Eberron? In the past (FR) there were so many sources of magic items that you rarely had to think of the source. Here though with the levels being reduced, what is the logical source for these? I think magic items should be "special" and try to create simple stories for many of them. I would rather not raise the world NPC levels if I don't have to, and wanted to know if I was missing something.
Hellcow 07-08-04, 03:38 PM	Originally posted by kildaere007 Who is assumed to be making these items? Other adventurers? House Cannith? Good question. I am going to be catching up on the Ask Keith thread today and tomorrow, so I'll answer this in more detail there. Short form: Items with a CL of up to 15 can certainly be produced by Cannith or the Twelve. More powerful items should be rare; they may come from ancient civilizations, be the creations of unusual NPCs like Mordain or Jaela (or Lords of Dust, Dragons, what have you), but they should be relatively remarkable.
Zelgadas 07-08-04, 04:51 PM	Perhaps House Cannith has some sort of clandestine trade going on with the dragons of Argonessen. I'm sure they could make some of the more powerful items.
Remnant 07-08-04, 05:48 PM	Standing on the outskirts of the war ravaged city, four cloaked figures speak in whispers to each other in the dim glow of pre-dawn. Malien's stern eyes peer at his companions from the depths of his hood, "...this much is assured. We must act with all haste and force, and yet, there are obstacles that even our might will be tested to overcome. What say you all?" Seldis's breastplate peeks out from under his robe as he shifts, "This city saw many a battle in the Last War, some of which I fought in myself. There are significant military forces stationed here still. I vote that we seek the aid of these forces in assailing the stronghold of the enemy." "Never the subtle one, are you," Degg quips, changing his face to a comical mockery of Seldis's. "Aye, there are resouces here to be sure- but raising a large force will draw unwanted attention! Not to mention the blood our allies would surely lose in the battle. I say we seek out those willing and able to aid us- a small, elite force will stand a much better chance than a horde of fools." "Time is short. Seldis, take Malien and seek the aid of the army. As a failsafe, Degg and I will scour the city for other assistance. We will meet at the well near the center of town when the sun is at its peak," orders Kavir. The group splits up, two moving toward the clusted merchant district, two making a straight path to the keep of the city government. Two tall guardsmen, the first rays of sun glinting off their weapons, bar passage into the keep. "Hold! State your business here!" "We must speak with the baron. The matter is urgent, and cannot wait! Stand aside!" demands Malien. "Who in Khyber... listen you little toad! I'll have you put in stocks if you can't hold your tounge!" roars the foremost guard. Seldis's eyes open in recognition, "Telb! I can't believe you are still alive!" The guard turns, "Seldis! How... wait- if you are working with this oaf, the task must be vital. I will let you in." The easy atmosphere of the Baron's council is suddenly interrupted by the creaking of the chamer's oak door. Two figures stride across the room, stopping and kneeling before the throne. "What is the meaning of this," Baron Gelidus asks, his powerful voice carrying across the chamber. "My lord, a great peril gathers near the city," Malien begins, "and we seek... hey... wait a minute..." Seldis turns toward his companion, whispering "What is wr..." Malien springs to his feet, pointing at the baron, "Look at this clod! He can't be more than what, a 3rd, maybe 4th level fighter? By the shifting chaos of Kythri, this peon can't help us! Why are we even talking to him?!" Seldis looks up in shock, "You're right! Sorry Gelidus, but you're clearly too weak to be the leader of such a large city. We're taking over." Gelidus rises to his feet, "Guards! Take these fools!" The sound of many armored feet pound behind the pair, blocking escape. A slight man standing just to the baron's side suddenly shifts into a clawed monstrosity and leaps into the air... Another pair of cloaked figures enter a packed inn, glancing around at the many occupants enjoying their first meal of the day. Present are many merchants, commoners, smiths, mages, and even some fierce looking adventurers. "Good ladies and fellows!" Kevis sounds, "We seek your most worthy aid in the battle against a dark enemy! Forces loyal to the Dust Lords gather in the old stronghold north of your city. Who can help us breach its great walls?" All eyes stare at the pair for a moment, but most quickly return to their plates and their companions. A bleary eyed man and a frazzled looking woman wearing mage robes make their way across the room. "Lets be guttin' some fool then. Meeby the clay-skin 'ere," the man grins wickedly at Degg. The half-elf woman figits, eyes darting back and forth rapidly, "Iliketohitthingswithlightning" Degg takes a step back, "Impressive! You look to be a barbarian of at least, what, 14th level? And you," he gestures toward the woman, "you bear the Siberys mark of Storm, and seem to be around 12th level! This is working out well." Suddenly, a calloused hand grasps Kevis's arm, and a quiet voice whispers in his ear, "My lord, I am a miner in this city, and we have delved far and deep through the rock in search of iron. Five years ago, we broke into the undercellar of the old stronghold. Nothing was there at the time, and we simply filled in the breach. I can take you to this place, and you will be able to pass the walls unhindered." Kevis turns toward the miner, "Oh for the love of...! Why does the DM insist on filling the world full of useless people like you. I mean, look at you! You're what? A level 2 commoner? Maybe expert? Look Mr. NPC class- I'm going to say this loudly and slowly so your low leveled self can understand... WE NO NEED APPLES! HERE IS A COPPER! IT LAST WHOLE MONTH FOR YOU!" The barbarian grimaces oddly, "Just soiled meself. I blame you. Time to fight! YAARG!"
Ormus 07-08-04, 05:53 PM	Originally posted by Remnant Malien springs to his feet, pointing at the baron, "Look at this clod! He can't be more than what, a 3rd, maybe 4th level fighter? By the shifting chaos of Kythri, this peon can't help us! Why are we even talking to him?!" Seldis looks up in shock, "You're right! Sorry Gelidus, but you're clearly too weak to be the leader of such a large city. We're taking over." Gelidus rises to his feet, "Guards! Take these fools!" [i]The sound of many armored feet pound behind the pair, blocking escape. A slight man standing just to the baron's side suddenly shifts into a clawed monstrosity and leaps into the air... Another pair of cloaked figures enter a packed inn, glancing around at the many occupants enjoying their first meal of the day. Present are many merchants, commoners, smiths, mages, and even some fierce looking adventurers. :rofl: That was a good read...
Sancus 07-08-04, 06:53 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow But where we completely disagree is your believe that to be a challenging opponent absolutely requires matching level. As far as I'm concerned, any of the dragonmark houses will make a valuable ally or dangerous enemy, even if they have no individual members who match you. I don't think we disagree, exactly -- rather, your mentioning of the people who ARE rather high level leaves me more than reassured that there is enough challenge for any non-epic character in Eberron. I was just throwing things up for debate, and I am most certainly impressed with the response I got. That's probably the most detailed response I've ever seen from a developer :) (and hey, anyone notice that both of the developers I've noted to take the most time out on the boards are both Bakers? Rich Baker has his 40-page answer thread in FR General, and you're writing up quite a storm here, Keith) OK, it's a reasonable response to say "Yes, but he is, literraly, a superhero. My players are not that sort of moral paragon." But are they really just heartless jerks who can only be motivated by fear? And as has already been said, if that's so, you overestimate the need for matching level when it comes to striking fear into someone. Yeah, I think I was overestimating it, perhaps, but '******* people off' doesn't necessarily mean killing people. I was more referring to the party's ability to solve problems the way they want, without concern for repercussion. However, I think that the threat of losing the valuable assistance of a House, or something like that, would be enough to keep even the most high level worried about choosing the right option. An 18th level character who has nowhere to buy supplies and magic because he's ****** everyone off is going to have a very hard time surviving, likely. Anyway, I think your points are enough to convince most that Eberron's NPCs are up to the challenges a PC group will bring to them, levels or not ;) Thanks.
Templar_Prime 07-08-04, 08:57 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow One last thought (and then I'm really going to stop commenting on this thread, since we're clearly going to have to agree to disagree): Eberron is inspired by the pulps. When Indiana Jones is fighting the Nazis, it doesn't matter that they are trained soldiers who have probably seen more combat than he has. He's the hero. He can do things that are fundamentally impossible -- and in my opinion, by the time you get to the teens, that's what you're talking about. A 4th-6th level character is an amazing and dangerous individual who can take on a dozen 1st-level warriors and hope to survive -- do you really think the average skilled soldier needs to be better than that? Okay, *that* I can see. Most of my recent games have been under GMs that try to make fantasy gritty and 'realistic'. Heroic genre's are foreign to them (would almost say anathema for one of them). So it's skewed my perspective a bit on the subject. Like many things about Eberon, this change is refreshing.
Sancus 07-08-04, 09:48 PM	If I wanted gritty and realistic, personally, I'd play Cthulhu, where the characters literally are flesh and blood compared to unimaginably powerful and ancient monsters that can rip them apart at the slightest whim. But I play D&D, and D&D is about heroes :) So yeah, I fully support that aspect of Eberron.
Hellcow 07-08-04, 11:10 PM	Originally posted by Sancus I don't think we disagree, exactly -- rather, your mentioning of the people who ARE rather high level leaves me more than reassured that there is enough challenge for any non-epic character in Eberron. Glad to hear it. It is certainly an interesting topic. But now I really need to get back to the Ask Keith Baker thread, and, oh, that "paying work" thing. :) Talk amongst yourselves! (I'll give you a topic: Eberron - Enron. Discuss!)
Von Ether 07-08-04, 11:13 PM	My solution ... "So why did you just assasinate the king?" "Dude, he was like half my level!" "So it was out of whim or an urge to rule the kingdom?" "Yeah!" "Okay, that's definately an evil act. Give me your character sheet so I can eras--" "Dude! I'm Chaotic Neutral, remember?" "Ah, yes. Let's hope you can get out of court alive!" "Bring them on! ... At this point, the campiagn changes. Either the brash player lose and we start with new characters, or they win and then ... "Congrats, you've turned court into a blood bath." "cool" "Yeah, it is. Make up new 1st level characters." "Why?" "Well, you guys are freedom fighters. It seems that this power mad despot assasinated the king one day and ..." Actually, I'd be more than happy to let PC take over countries and kingdoms ... if they did it with forethought and planning.
Hellcow 07-08-04, 11:20 PM	Originally posted by Von Ether Actually, I'd be more than happy to let PC take over countries and kingdoms ... if they did it with forethought and planning. Sure! Like I said, high level characters could probably take over Darguun -- if they went through a whole campaign winning the loyalty of the lowland clans and dealing with goblinoid intrigue. It's just not as simple as killing Haruuc. I love the freedom fighter idea, by the way!
ChronosCrow 07-09-04, 03:10 AM	Originally posted by Hellcow Talk amongst yourselves! (I'll give you a topic: Eberron - Enron. Discuss!) Are you veclempt? And Eberron would so kick Enron's ass. I mean what's Enron got, a bunch of crocked CEO's and unknowing desk workers? Eberron has politcal intrigue, 4 continents, a pleathra of history going back 10,000 years+, that crazy guy "The Lord of Blades" or whatever, that awesome ale mug could kick anyone's butt, and it has the PC's. Also the mystery of Enron is no more since they got 'found out.' Wham!!!1!!!1 Enron goes down for the count!
Alratan 07-09-04, 07:42 AM	Returning to the question about diplomacy, a 12th level character can get a +50 bonus on a Diplomacy check if they focus one it. 12 skill ranks, +6 synergy, +2 half-elf, +2 negotiator, +20 item, +5 charisma, +3 skill focus, total = +50 This means that 50% of the time they can change a hostile creature into a helpful creature as a one round action. This becomes even worse if you allow aid from the other charatcers. Later on, after some time has passed, they can automatically turn that creature into a fanatic if they spend ten minutes speaking to them. Fanatic Means: Will give life to serve you Example: Fight to the death against overwhelming odds, throw self in front of onrushing dragon Consider what this means in terms of high level character dealing with low level rulers. If they can get undetected into the ruler's presence the ruler will (non-magically) become their best frined, and a few days later will become their willing slave.
The Steve 07-09-04, 07:57 AM	Doesn't sound like that scenario would be too far from the intended tone of the game - cf Grima Wormtongue from LOTR. Becoming the power behind the throne, speaking with the King's voice etc. Good plan for a villain NPC anyway.
The Steve 07-09-04, 08:04 AM	Btw Remnant your post about the four characters made me laugh so much a little bit nearly leaked out.
Hellcow 07-09-04, 12:58 PM	Originally posted by Alratan means that 50% of the time they can change a hostile creature into a helpful creature as a one round action. *shrug* I think it's the DM's prerogative to decide what's reasonable expectations from a "helpful" creature. The example given in the description of Diplomacy is that the ogre magi choose to ransom you instead of kill you, not that they become your loyal servants. Yes, I know the definition of helpful, but as with Charm Person I think that it's always up to the DM to rule on what is plausible - it's oratory, not mind control! Further, if Diplomacy is being used for purposes of advancing personal power, I would also factor in the target's Sense Motive ranks; someone who is alert to what you're trying to do should be harder to convince (and if you can get a +20 Diplomacy item, I'd imagine the king can get at least a +10 Sense Motive item). But with that said, I think the idea of people manipulating a ruler is certainly plausible. As the Last War dragonshards article noted, it's entirely possible that the Last War was started by the Dreaming Dark, the Lords of Dust, Vol, or all three. If anything, that might be your problem. Sure, Sebastes is only 5th level, but what about the agent of the Dreaming Dark who's REALLY running the show in Q'barra? Also, where are you drawing the "fanatic" ruling from? That's not something I've seen before. Is it official or optional?
Ashaman Joe 07-09-04, 05:12 PM	Fanatic is from the Epic Level Handbook, as an epic use of the diplomacy skill. :)
Sancus 07-09-04, 06:02 PM	+20 item The item guidelines are for DMs, not PCs. Thus, no, you don't get to have a +20 diplomacy item unless your DM is dumb enough to put it into your campaign. And if he's doing that, well, you're already screwed up :) Also, Diplomacy DCs are very, very strongly subject to circumstance modifiers -- no matter how many Diplomacy ranks you have, no DM is going to let you turn someone who's trying to kill you into your best friend, in one round. Diplomacy is a skill, it isn't Dominate Person.
Hellcow 07-09-04, 06:37 PM	Originally posted by Ashaman Joe Fanatic is from the Epic Level Handbook, as an epic use of the diplomacy skill. :) As a DM, I wouldn't let a 12th-level character make an epic-level skill check regardless of what his modifier was. In my eyes, there is more to it than the DC, especially when you're deriving almost half of your skill from a magic item (and frankly, I've never allowed a magic item with a skill bonus greater than +10 in my campaign, but that's up to you). These are near-magical/mythical powers possessed by truly extraordinary individuals. The fact that you can have that level of skill at 12th level means the king could have it too. You are not epic level, therefore you shouldn't be able to perform epic-level actions, regardless of your modifiers. At least, as a DM, that would be my ruling. There's also the question of maintaining friendship. You may be able to turn the person helpful with a check, but once you go away and his friends show up and say "What the **** are you doing? Are you an idiot?" He may come to his senses... especially if a) you're making unreasonable requests and b) he's got a decent Sense Motive.
ForeverRaven 07-09-04, 08:00 PM	As written I cannot see how Eberron will become anything other than the player's personal sandbox. No, if the players wanted their own personal sandbox, they would play in a DarkSun campaign. :) Personally I absolutely love Eberron, it's probably the most amazing campaign setting I've ever seen. It's definately the most fun to play in and has the most diversity that can work for ANY kind of player. I'm an Eberron addict (and I can't wait for the sourcebook on Sharn to come out!)
Lofwyr 07-10-04, 09:21 PM	Just to throw in another monkey wrench, I think D&D has "missed out" on a pretty basic concept...granted it adds so much more work for the DM so not many people think about. I agree with everyone on the side that rulers of countries do not need to be superheroic beings. Lower level individuals will naturally inherit positions of power, or will acquire the material resources they need in another way, and just hire some tough guards and the arcane equivalent of ADT for home security. In keeping with the "pulp" feel to Eberron, it is also worth comparing it to the world of comics. How many countries of Earth are controlled by a super-powered being in either the Marvel or DC universes? Doctor Doom is the only one who comes to mind right away and he rules over a small eastern european country without a lot of material resources. People like Superman or Captain America are not running nations because they are too busy being heroes, and people like Magneto or Sinestro aren't ruling nations because a) most of them would be terrible at it; and b) because people like Superman or Captain America are out there stopping them. The other thing to think about with ex-adventurers turning into rulers is...why would you want to? The day to day work would be so comparatively boring vs. your old "job". At the other end of the conceptual continuum is the idea that a 15th level fighter genuinely decides to quit the hero game, take up rulership in earnest, and has chosen skills/feats along the way to help this. Logically speaking...if a superathletic, expertly honed, peak of his/her career killer were to suddenly stop practicing their craft, don't you think s/he would gradually lose those levels? D&D doesn't address this, but I know that skipping my own work-out for a few days sets me back by 1-2 weeks...imagine the "time-away" from killing monsters or slinging spells that running a country involves. The bigger issue that I have behind this argument is the way "levels" are earned and the fact that they do have a very real impact on the campaign world... Think about it...you are Oargev ir'Wynarn (aristocrat 3/fighter 1), prince of New Cyre in Breland. You practice swordplay with some tutors (hence your fighter level), but basically you talk to people, make deals, maybe conduct some behind the scenes espionage decisions, etc. Normal ruler stuff. Here's my question... Why in the world does Prince Oargev need to go out in the wilds of the Mournland and stab monsters with a sword to earn "XP"? Isn't his main job to serve as an aristocrat? If you are using Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff, maybe Intimidate, a Profession skill or two, EVERY DAY, don't you think you'd get better at it? Nope, not in our game. That is the biggest problem to me. You can find a very good middle ground of having middle-high level rulers without their country having to worry about their monarch or heir losing his or her life to an iron golem in yonder dungeon if the DM makes some logical allowances for a "training XP" (or however you want to call it) invisible system going on in the world in the background. The levels just need to be logical as they relate to what the person really does everyday. A born and bred ruler who is also a level 12 wizard...not so logical. When did they find time to do all that studying? They certainly weren't learning the "accelerated way" through adventuring under high stress conditions, intuitive leaps, and on-the-job-training. Mom and dad probably would frown on the crown prince going out and risking his life, just as much as they would prevent him from living in a labratory 24/7. Learning how to run a country is difficult, and good rulers spend a lot of time learning transferrable skills beforehand. But a level 12 aristocrat learning from the daily experiences of his life...that makes a lot more sense. The DMG even seems to almost assume this. When rolling up the NPCs for a town, and their levels (DMG 3.5, page 139), a "small town" of population 901-2000 has an expert of level 3d4, and then a bunch more of lower levels. 3d4 is going to average around an 8th level expert. I doubt this person achieved 8th level as a smithy by chasing brigands or rescuing damsels in distress. And these are all levels in the expert class, so it is even more unlikely that they are retired adventurers. If they were, they would have a few levels of [insert class capable of surviving most adventures...not the expert], and then expert levels afterwards. The most logical, "realistic" way to explain the 8th level expert is that they are an older person who has been doing their job for a long time and learned a lot...why this provides things like more hit points or Base Attack Bonuses I can't rationalize, but such are the limits of any game system. So, I agree with Arkhaven about some of the leaders being too low level, but I would level them up in only certain classes...the most obvious of which is aristocrat. One of my favorite parts of the book was the Dragonmark Heir Prestige Class. This is a great class to use to "level" up members of the Houses using the logic I gave above. Most of the class skills and special abilities for class are things that NPC types would be using everyday...so let them level up in that class under the "practice makes perfect" concept.
Tobias_the _invincible 07-11-04, 12:08 AM	Originally posted by Lofwyr and people like Magneto or Sinestro aren't ruling nations because a) most of them would be terrible at it; and b) because people like Superman or Captain America are out there stopping them. Actually, Magneto does rule a nation, Genosia. Just thought I'd mention that.
Enslaved DM 07-11-04, 12:23 AM	Most rulers shouldn't be high level. The do have the benefit of expensive educations, but so do the Bristish royals. Most kings aren't real warrior kings. Princes may be sent into danger, but with safeguards. It's not even close to what most adventurers face. I can buy legendary Hobgoblin warlords who found nations with double digit levels. The people that you should really be worrying about is his bodyguards. Don't worry about taking the 6th level king. Worry about the six most frelling powerful knights in the realm, his master of assassins, and uber-wizard advisor. The only ruler who seems underpowered is Vol. What kind of relgion leading uber-lich can't cast 9th level spells?
The Steve 07-11-04, 09:53 AM	Originally posted by Enslaved DM Most rulers shouldn't be high level. The do have the benefit of expensive educations, but so do the Bristish royals. Most kings aren't real warrior kings. Princes may be sent into danger, but with safeguards. It's not even close to what most adventurers face. Good analogy with the British royals - having played sport against William, I can assure you he's no high level fighter (and his Diplomacy skill needs work too) however, one look at his ex-special forces bodyguards would put anyone off messing with him!
Hellcow 07-11-04, 11:39 AM	Originally posted by Enslaved DM The only ruler who seems underpowered is Vol. What kind of relgion leading uber-lich can't cast 9th level spells? Just as a quick clarification, Erandis Vol is not the ultimate derivation of the religion of the Blood of Vol. It is based on the teachings of her house, which existed since the rise of Aerenal as a nation. As the last of the line of Vol, she is revered and the Order of the Emerald Claw in particular is fantatically devoted to her -- but she's not supposed to be a god, by any means. If you want to bump her up to 18th level, go ahead, though my inclination would be to make that part of a quest: if her followers can acquire enough of the shattered shards of the Orb of the Keeper, Vol can drain its power to increase her own.
Enslaved DM 07-11-04, 03:14 PM	Oh, if she's just a hereditary ruler, then that's just fine. Thank you for the clarification.
Ezekiel 07-11-04, 06:49 PM	Lofwyr: First, I was inclined to agree with you. Rulers of nations should be quite remarkable individuals, otherwise they couldn't keep their nations together. But then I remembered what Keith has already stated. Some of the rulers of the nations of Khorvaire are exceptional people. They are even in their teens of levels (PC levels to boot). The king of Breland for instance, he's 12th level and a great champion of a fighter. But some rulers aren't. Like the young king of New Galifar in Q'Barra. He rules a nation, but not because of merits, and if "released into the wild", he probably wouldn't survive. And even if he did, he might not even be let back into town, because the guards wouldn't believe him when he told them he's the king (because of his pretty low diplomacy). So you see, some rulers are supposed to be low level. Not only to show that low level people can get positions of power (which is of course true in a nation ruled by a lineage), but also because they are meant to be lesser than their peers. They are supposed to be weak, and perhaps not really fit to rule their lands quite yet.
Enslaved DM 07-12-04, 01:12 AM	In the RW a lot of ruler of countries are unexceptional. Go through the history of any nation and rate every ruler. To generalize heres what you will find: 1) several exceptional people. Founder's of nations, great war leaders, etcetera. (Benjamin Franklin, Abe Lincoln, Alexander the Great) 2) Some capable people, with a fair degree of intellegence and/ or charisma (Truman, Nixon[capable, not moral]) 3) Total shmucks (Dan Quayle, Charles the Sufferer, King John) 4) Only a few people who might have the equivalent of a lot of double digit levels (Alexander the Great, Richard the Lionheart) You can fit into multiple categories (Richard the Lionheart was a great warrior, but a lousy king)
Solonor71 07-14-04, 08:15 AM	Hmm.. I mostly agree with Lord Arhaven, though I can see where other people are coming from.. The thing is that PCs do tend to reach high levels fast (specially when the DM doesn't inforce some kind of downtime) and my concerns are those of Lord Arhaven's : that they'll unpset the balance of the game, since many major NPCs won't be a match for the PCs. The mechanincs of the game give the PCs the power to do the latter. On the other hand, what most people say (including Keith), is that via good/proper (NPC) roleplaying and via circumstancial facts (a major NPC maybe lower level, but has many counselors/guards in his disposal) - that this upset of balance can be avoided, even if the PCs have more power than the lord/king/whatever.. Personally, I'd rather like to twinker the mechanics of the game than solely rely on (my) good roleplaying, or the PCs good intentions (as I've said in another thread, you can't stop 12th-15th level PCs from burning down villages - unless you invoke some unbelievable means [Dreaming Dark, dragons, etc]). Since there aren't many high level NPCs that would confront these PCs, I'm thinking of slowing down the PCs advancement : I'm thinking of increasing the in-between level XP "step" from 1000xp to 2000xp, so that it would be twice as hard to achieve high levels fast. Another thing I was thinking about (but is much more difficult) is to alter entirely the spell system, which is very strong for Eberron standards (IMO). Wheel of Time CS, has a very good and interesting spell system (has to do with elements), and it's weaker than PHB's. But, as I said above, it would need major tweaking/testing (along with the other non-spellcasting classes) - but it's an idea.. Just my $0.02
Solonor71 07-14-04, 08:16 AM	double post
Sereno 07-14-04, 09:34 AM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven Here's the thing. If a PC or NPC (like say, The Lord of Blades) wants to conquor Breland with his warforged he will do so if you play that fight out with the information that has been given in the book. The only way this could work would be if the LoB came to the border of Breland and said, "Everyone with a sword, line up here, I'm going to kill you all." And, they did. There's no way one warrior, no matter how tough, can beat an entire nation. Think about wars here on earth. Was there any nation that could have stood up to the US after we dropped the Bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Why doesn't the US rule the entire world with an iron fist? Because that's NOT how nations work.
Sereno 07-14-04, 09:36 AM	Here's another thing to consider: The PCs aren't the ONLY adventurers in the entire world of Eberron. As a DM, you could certainly create other adventuing groups and keep them roughly leveled with the PCs so there would be opposition out there if needed. It's only when the world remains completely static that the PCs will quickly advance to godhood over the rest of the people. There could be 50 adventuring companies, right now, working in Xen'drik and when they return to Khorvaire, they could be any level the DM needs!
MrSpatula 07-14-04, 07:20 PM	A little late to the party here, but... Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven I would put forth that PC or NPC level becomes one of the most important factors when determining who will lead and who will follow. Gygax recognised this in the first incarnations of the game. Leadership wasn't a feat and it wasn't a simple plot device. Leadership was earned through high level. At 9th level a fighter had the option to build a stronghold and attract followers. A rogue could do something similar at 10th level and a wizard, at 11th. These levels were admittedly arbitrary but the spirit of the message was clear. a 4th level fighter or wizard has not the capabilities to suvive the necessary rigors of leadership in the reality of Dungeons and Dragons.Gygax actually disagreed with your position. Most rulers back in the 1E days were 0-level characters - basically 1st-level Commoners in 3E terms - unless they were retired adventurers. So the king of nation would have maybe 4 hit points and a THAC0 and saving throws of 20. PCs could gain strongholds and recruit small numbers of followers, but that's a far cry from ruling a country.
Zelgadas 07-15-04, 10:50 AM	Originally posted by Solonor71 Hmm.. I mostly agree with Lord Arhaven, though I can see where other people are coming from.. The thing is that PCs do tend to reach high levels fast (specially when the DM doesn't inforce some kind of downtime) and my concerns are those of Lord Arhaven's : that they'll unpset the balance of the game, since many major NPCs won't be a match for the PCs. The mechanincs of the game give the PCs the power to do the latter. I just really don't understand this mentality. The world of Eberron is not a static place; it grows and evolves as the PCs do. the Lord of Blades is 12th level according to the book, but that doesn't mean he has to stay 12th level; it just means that that's his level at the start of the campaign. He is entirely capable of growing in power to match the PCs, as are any other major characters in your campaign. And it's not like you'd have to re-stat him, because he's not even statted out in the first place. If you make the world seem like a living world at all, I don't see how the PCs will be trouncing everyone they come across once they reach 15th level. By the time they do, someone else will have, too.
Solonor71 07-15-04, 11:15 AM	Originally posted by Zelgadas I just really don't understand this mentality. The world of Eberron is not a static place; it grows and evolves as the PCs do. the Lord of Blades is 12th level according to the book, but that doesn't mean he has to stay 12th level; it just means that that's his level at the start of the campaign. He is entirely capable of growing in power to match the PCs, as are any other major characters in your campaign. And it's not like you'd have to re-stat him, because he's not even statted out in the first place. If you make the world seem like a living world at all, I don't see how the PCs will be trouncing everyone they come across once they reach 15th level. By the time they do, someone else will have, too. So, what are you saying? That the only nemesis/threat of a 12th+ leveled party would be Lord of Blades* (LoB level=PCs level + 3)? The lack of enough high level NPCs, makes the DM (in order to challenge/keep them at check) to : either use the same NPCs/organazations over and over (to a high leveled PC party) , or use other NPCs (equal leveled adventuring party) which doesn't feel too epic.. * feel free to change LoB with any other high level NPC..
Hellcow 07-15-04, 01:17 PM	Originally posted by Solonor71 So, what are you saying? That the only nemesis/threat of a 12th+ leveled party would be Lord of Blades* (LoB level=PCs level + 3)? Have you read my other posts earlier on this thread? First, there's the point that an influential force (like Thuranni) doesn't have to match in level to be a threat. Next, Khyber, Xen'drik, or the Mournland can hold any creature you want -- bring on the CR 28 fiend wyrm! But, just going by what is mentioned, you've got: Vol (CR 18 as is, could certainly become more powerful, and has an army of minions) The Daughters of Sora Kell (CR 16-17, plus army of minions) The Dreaming Dark (Epic level, if you want to get into the Devourer of Dreams) The Daelkyr (don't forget, up to 50 HD!) The Cults of the Dragon Below (beholders, high level mind flayers, and symbiont-altered clerics, oh my!) The Lords of Dust (as powerful as you want them to be -- if you want an epic level rakshasa sorcerer, I won't stop you...) The Dragons of Argonessen The Lord of Blades (Sure, he'll need to advance, but he can do that). The Aurum (like Thuranni, more of a threat because of influence than level -- they'll be the ones who hire the opposing NPC adventurer party) Mordain the Fleshweaver (Just because he hasn't done much for centuries doesn't mean he couldn't change his mind) Ruus Dhakaan of the Kech Sharaat (CR 14 now, and like the Lord of Blades he could advance, plus he's in charge of one of the most disciplined military forces on the planet) Any of the Dragonmarked houses could pose a threat, as mentioned earlier on the thread. And this isn't counting things barely aluded to. The Cabinet of Faces. The possibility of a hidden, high-level priest of the Shadow. And, of course, you have every monster ever invented. If your immediate question is "So why haven't they conquered Eberron already" -- read the answer on page 3. If that answer doesn't satisfy you, OK, but at least let's go from there.
Enslaved DM 07-15-04, 04:24 PM	Every single powerful person in Eberron is not listed in the main book. Every single arch-mage in Faerun isn't listed in the FRCS, why should every single powerful person be listed in the Eberron book? Besides, there is always mindflayers, beholders, evil dragons, etc.
OzyBurrfoot 07-20-04, 12:24 PM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven I can't speak for historical fact, but from a mythalogical point of view many legendary rulers were at least partially divine (Gilgamesh, numerous Greeks) or hailed from scions like David, Solomon, Noah (to name a few from the bible.) Not to nit-pick but are you implying Noah was a high level character? Maybe a ranger or druid since he had that whole animal gathering thing going on? lol On a more serious note, I noticed you (Lord Arkhaven) mentioned Arragon being king but refused to comment on any of the other low-level rulers present in Middle Earth. Why is this, dont like your point being proven wrong? (this may come across insulting, dont take it this way I am just curious)
OzyBurrfoot 07-20-04, 12:37 PM	Originally posted by Tobias_the _invincible Actually, Magneto does rule a nation, Genosia. Just thought I'd mention that. I wasnt going to comment on of subject things but I do feel it necessary to point out your mistake (as I am an avid Xmen fan for 14 years or so) Magneto no longer rules a nation because the other world powers got fed up with him and nuked Genosia. Again he came back from the supposed dead and tried to take over the world by turning New York almost literally on its head and was going to reverse the polar magnetism of the world and get it to spin backwords but he was stopped again. This time by high level characters. If high leveled PCs decide they want to over throw the world, turn them into villians, take the sheets away from the characters, and have them make new PCs with the goal of stopping these bad, bad people.
Solonor71 07-20-04, 12:52 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow Have you read my other posts earlier on this thread? First, there's the point that an influential force (like Thuranni) doesn't have to match in level to be a threat. Next, Khyber, Xen'drik, or the Mournland can hold any creature you want -- bring on the CR 28 fiend wyrm! But, just going by what is mentioned, you've got: Vol (CR 18 as is, could certainly become more powerful, and has an army of minions) The Daughters of Sora Kell (CR 16-17, plus army of minions) The Dreaming Dark (Epic level, if you want to get into the Devourer of Dreams) The Daelkyr (don't forget, up to 50 HD!) The Cults of the Dragon Below (beholders, high level mind flayers, and symbiont-altered clerics, oh my!) The Lords of Dust (as powerful as you want them to be -- if you want an epic level rakshasa sorcerer, I won't stop you...) The Dragons of Argonessen The Lord of Blades (Sure, he'll need to advance, but he can do that). The Aurum (like Thuranni, more of a threat because of influence than level -- they'll be the ones who hire the opposing NPC adventurer party) Mordain the Fleshweaver (Just because he hasn't done much for centuries doesn't mean he couldn't change his mind) Ruus Dhakaan of the Kech Sharaat (CR 14 now, and like the Lord of Blades he could advance, plus he's in charge of one of the most disciplined military forces on the planet) Any of the Dragonmarked houses could pose a threat, as mentioned earlier on the thread. And this isn't counting things barely aluded to. The Cabinet of Faces. The possibility of a hidden, high-level priest of the Shadow. And, of course, you have every monster ever invented. If your immediate question is "So why haven't they conquered Eberron already" -- read the answer on page 3. If that answer doesn't satisfy you, OK, but at least let's go from there. Ok, so there is a dozen high-level NPCs/Organizations to challenge the (high-level) PCs. But what about law enforcement? (ala Cormyrian Purple Knights). You can't (constantly) keep check of PCs by twisting some plot with the above high-level NPCs.. And I don't agree with people that say 'if the PCs do something bad, start anew' (not that my PCs are doing that, but anyway..). I believe in the freedom of choice (especially if it fits the PCs alignment) and I believe in a good DMs play (with improvisation & fantasy) - as long as he has the right tools to back him up (read: a proper & solid structure of law enforcement high level characters/organization and not some random villains).. I believe that people who say 'tear the PC sheets and start a new campaign' are lacking the strength to put up with the challenge.. Again, just my $0.02
Scion of Coldshard 07-20-04, 01:02 PM	Personally, I think that rulers of countries should gain exp by overcoming challenges just like anyone else. Everytime someone comes to them with a problem then they gain exp based on how well they solve it (or fail to solve it). Tougher problems, more complexity, better resolution.. all of these lead to gaining more exp. So, for a large scale country if the ruler is 2nd level and everyday is put through another test of leadership they will learn.. they will expand their abilities.. they will become more forbidable over time.. In other words, they will gain levels. I would expect most fledgling heirs to the thrown to be between level 3 and level 6 (from training and having to settle minor disputes that are a bit below the current ruler), and most rulers to be between levels 3 and whatever the upper bound is for the world. Bigger countries usually have bigger problems, or at least more opportunities to gain exp. In the end, if there is a ruler who is level 2 and actually has to do things and has people to train them.. then I would expect them to not be level 2 for long ;)
Hellcow 07-20-04, 01:08 PM	Originally posted by Solonor71 Ok, so there is a dozen high-level NPCs/Organizations to challenge the (high-level) PCs. But what about law enforcement? (ala Cormyrian Purple Knights). You can't (constantly) keep check of PCs by twisting some plot with the above high-level NPCs.. The Sharn sourcebook will give you an example of law enforcement in a major metropolis. In addition to the watch, you have groups like the Denieth Sentinel Marshals, the King's Citadel, Ranger Knights, and Tharashk bounty hunters (and here we're just talking Breland specifically). Not to mention, if things get bad enough, House Thuranni. Tied back to my previous post about House Thuranni, it's not necessary for law enforcers to match the characters in level if they (the enforcers) aren't going to play fair. Just to plug my own work, Crime & Punishment (by Atlas Games) includes a big section on how bounty hunters or law enforcers can bring down higher level characters, intended both for PCs trying this path but also for the DM who needs to keep players in line. If every watchman is the same level as the heroes or higher (the MMORPG city guard syndrome), why do we need heroes in the first place? Again, could one of Denethor's royal guards have stopped Legolas? Seriously doubtful. But taken as a team, using the proper equipment and tactics, maybe. There's many forms of power besides straight character level!
Solonor71 07-20-04, 01:20 PM	double post..
Solonor71 07-20-04, 01:21 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow The Sharn sourcebook will give you an example of law enforcement in a major metropolis. In addition to the watch, you have groups like the Denieth Sentinel Marshals, the King's Citadel, Ranger Knights, and Tharashk bounty hunters (and here we're just talking Breland specifically). Not to mention, if things get bad enough, House Thuranni. Tied back to my previous post about House Thuranni, it's not necessary for law enforcers to match the characters in level if they (the enforcers0 aren't going to play fair. Just to plug my own work, Crime & Punishment (by Atlas Games) includes a big section on how bounty hunters or law enforcers can bring down higher level characters, intended both for PCs trying this path but also for the DM who needs to keep players in line. If every watchman is the same level as the heroes or higher (the MMORPG city guard syndrome), why do we need heroes in the first place? Again, could one of Denethor's royal guards have stopped Legolas? Seriously doubtful. But taken as a team, using the proper equipment and tactics, maybe. There's many forms of power besides straight character level! Wow!! That was fast!! Keith I'm oblidged to thank you for your proper etiquette that most people are lacking.. Even in arguing, you have never answered like 'you don't know what are you saying' or 'if you don't like Eberron, don't play it' - some people have actually answered me like that, more or less.. I would expect you to have a (justified?) harsher attitude, but no.. you answer with proper arguments!! Kudos!! I'll wait for the Sharn sourcebook to come out (around November, right?), and I'll try to get a copy (or at least have a look) of the CnP handbook, thanks for the info...
TarlSS 07-20-04, 05:54 PM	Rich, low level characters also have access to plenty of magic items, and plenty of people to use them. An army of level 1 warriors may not be able to stand up to a level 13 Weremaster, but that situation changes when they're all armed with specially tuned Charms of Tenser's Transformation and Arrows of Shifter Slaying. That, or you could commision 200 wands of magic missle, hire 200 magewrights and deal 200d4+200 damage in one round. You'd keep one handy with a shield spell to counterspell shield. Or just hire an abjurer to dispel and or counter whatever spell protections you have after that.
Kandinsky 07-23-04, 03:47 PM	I could probably whoop George W Bush in a fistfight, yet he is the leader of the free world. First, obviously my grandmother can beat George Bush in a fistfight. (she owns a farm, she can take down some pro-wrestlers if she feels like :D) Second, George Bush it's like a mage, he has no physical power, but he can summon 10K soldiers to sweep the floor with you, and then. if you are stil standing he can throw a nuke at you Third, George Bush is a Tyrant not a lider, and *lol* ask any CO if we are really free. so I guess that any leader that has enough magical power (magic items, artifacts, or mages at your command) can rule a nation. There's many forms of power besides straight character level! yup, maybe at the first attack the characters could do a lot of damage, but later the leader could be prepared to take the party down
Roo 07-23-04, 07:39 PM	Fourth: Get a dictionary. Fifth: Leave politics out of this.
Jaremy Rykker 07-24-04, 01:01 AM	I feel that the lack of high-level NPCs is a major selling point for Eberron. The characters through their actions and determination can become the heroes of Eberron, and there is a point where they should become talked about by common folk. To state that Eberron should be like any traditional campaign setting is foolish, because there are a half dozen campaign settings that could hold your attention if that is what you wished for. On the other hand, Eberron is one of the first where the characters are truly on their own. In case of misfortune or bad planning, there are no high level characters to rescue them, and there is no ever watchful god to save them. They are alone in the world, and they are some of the most powerful characters in the world. If you want some ideas for challenges, look at some of the great examples of an Eberron-like setting. For example, imagine the party of adventurers being pitted against an equivalent of the Nazis in the third one... what was it? The Holy Grail or something like that. Invent challenges like that, and throw it at them. Perhaps there is no single 30th level character who can rescue the day or destroy it. But a coordinated army of 500 soldiers could very well do the same thing.
JBW 07-24-04, 05:54 PM	I must be odd that I don't find the listed levels to be either good or bad. I've never really cared for any pregenerated NPC stats, and I always take the time to adjust them (often from scratch) to my own tastes. As an example, in my campaign, the Lord of Blades is not a Juggernaught. He certainly keeps several Juggernaughts around him, but I have a personal idea for him that revolves around him having much higher levels of Artificer with just a few levels of Fighter to reflect his "early years" before he found his new calling. This is more of a "mastermind" villian instead of a front-line zealot. Sure, in my version the LoB is trying to get his followers to take a path he himself is not following, but this hypocirisy is not uncommon. GWB wants soldiers to enlist and run off to Iraq, but he's not about to fight on the front lines... I've made similar rewrites for every NPC that I intend to feature in my campaign. It really helps to keep your players from just reading the ECS and developing "divine insight" into the capabilities of their allies and enemies. Jay
glimeral 10-10-04, 10:54 PM	One thing ive noticed on this thread that everyone seems to be missing is the fact that considering most things in the world are going to be low CR, the XP awards from most encounters are going to pale very quickly (especially as the heroes advance in level). Sure, if you have your heroes prancing around Xen'Drik or Kyber all of the time they would most likely advance at the normal Dnd rate, but still, this is a world of intrigue people... and many encounters are probably going to involve some level of roleplaying not just sword swinging. So what if the PCs can eventually reach god-like levels in comparison to the rest of the world, you dont think people like Heracles (commonly called Hercules) or Eulysies (sp) had enough to worry about instead of ruling the world (and yes i know that Eulysies did rule eventually but thats not the point), if you cant keep your heroes busy trying to keep the monsters from destroying the world that they are trying to conquor (as they are likely to choose the heroes conquest as the perfect opportunity to launch their plans into motion, the perfect distraction or event that shatters all those anoying obstacles in their way of success) then your players have you whipped lololol... Even thinking from a metagame perspective, who says that the PCs are the only ones capable of launching an assault on X-nation and aren't looking for an opportunity to do so (which the players fortunately provide) and while the pcs are swinging swords and hacking the country apart (while trying to maintain their tenuous grip on their conquored land) the villian with foresight is spreading resentment among the general public, garnering followers who are loyal to him because he promises retribution for the loss of the king etc, and there you have it, an evil villian rises up WITH the peoples blessing to assault the heroes (and already has the metagame level to do it), but also has the addition of many 1st level commoners, warriors etc backing him...... Doesnt matter that hes villianous, just look at Hitler... he lead the people because they wanted something to believe in and they overlooked his villiany because he gave it to them. Anyway, there is plenty of things that a good DM can do to prevent heroes from regicide, and even if they could concievably do it, there are plenty of plot hooks available that the heroes would obviously not notice in their quest for kingliness (hey, while they are even attempting it you can hint at the evil power who is watching the pcs movements and gaining strength while they are busy warring with a nation, if that doesnt get the heroes attention, i dont know what will....)
glimeral 10-10-04, 11:19 PM	Enter the Emerald Claw as the savior of the common people, led by their Queen Vol who champions the peoples freedom from tyranny (the heroes)... you have the very plot hook shes looking for to recruit more followers. Or even the LoBs to a degree (as he uses the heroes rise to power through force of arms to prove his point that fleshies are unstable and should be controlled, causing warforged to flock to his standard alongside the houses and common militia as they all pool their resources against a common threat), hey, if looking like a good guy and working WITH the general public gets the LoBs more followers and power then it furthers his plans (and hes intelligent enough to play that sort of manipulation) especially if he gets loyal warforged into key positions in the new militarys army.... The Daelkyr and their followers would use the ensuring chaos to spread more chaos, even going so far as to spread rumors that the heroes are the instruments of their freedom or the heralding of Xiorets (sp) return... and if the Silver Flame gets wind of the rumors and even half believes them, well you have a holy crusade against the heroes for being demonic... the potential plot hooks with just the published characters are endless, and can be instigated far before the heroes actually get their intended goals (hey, if you want to play even more into the intrigue of the game, you could have Vol or the Lords of dust or someone give the heroes the POWER to win their little crusade for regicide).. Any upset to the balance of power in the world is a tool to further the agendas of darkness, and they havent gotten as powerful as they have by hacking away at those weaker than themselves.... but by coercion, manipulation and deciet... which all plays into the campaign setting with having the villians pretend to be heroes against the PCs (who are made out by careful manipulation to be outright despots). Heck, if you want to go RW with it... you could have such a villianous organisation help the heroes out without their knowledge, conducting terrorism on their behalf, or creating mayhem and framing the heroes for it... with what the heroes are already doing (attempting to take over a nation) it would be believable, and then in steps Charismatic Villian "would-be" savior. Hey, Id love to plant the ideas of world conquest into any of my metagame PCs minds... id have a field day with a campaign like this, and the players would be beset by the forces of light and darkness at the same time (and if played right, could go way into epic levels...all because some rash pc said hes only 5th level lets kill him) evil laughter ensues
nyysjan 10-19-04, 09:10 AM	have we not evolved as people and as players beyond "i see i kill" mentality of the people once had can we not travel to see the beautiful sights and taste the exotic foods can not curiosity empower us to move beyond the horizon or must we always be on the lookout for the next level for the next foe could not the mystery be it's own reward. just because there are no easy answer's doesn't mean there are no answer's what power is greater than one wielded by a new born babe in it's mother's arms if you want easy way out watch television it demands only your time no effort is needed but the game demands a sacrifice and it be your time and effort given to the game
SearchingShaman 11-19-04, 09:28 PM	I've read one page of the insanely long 5 in this thread. Has no one thought that high level PCs would use illusion magic to further their ends? Of course they aren't just going to walk into the throne room and start killing! You can do a lot with illusions, including inventing ficticious problems for your own party to solve. Some of the posters on page one suffer from a lack of imagination if they think that high level parties would merely kill their way to the top. By the way, a big difference between the real world and the fantasy world regarding assassinations is the escape method. A 90 year old can shoot a gun and kill a world leader, but how would he escape? He probably won't. Things are different with Dimension door, fly, magic, etc. Furthermore, when the designers stat out leaders, you are asking for trouble. There is an old saying in D&D, "If you stat it, then players will kill it" In this regard, I am reminded of a Knights of the Dinner Table strip where B.A. is given a book that gives stats for God (Hebrew/Christian God as it was Old Testament Based). The players inevitable talk of how they could kill God. Sure, a lot of groups tend towards more noble and good characters, but to some the temptation is irresistable. They think, Could I conquer/kill this? When you give the NPCs such paltry stats, the answer is a resounding yes if you use a little imagination.
Ashfallen 11-20-04, 12:48 AM	Some years ago I remember reading about an XP system for an MMORPG (which Google tells me was Asheron's Call) which had an "allegiance" feature. If you "swore allegiance" to someone, they got a small percentage of the XP you earned. This worked up the line. I don't know how it works in Asheron's Call, but in D&D it could be made to work as follows: assume you have the 4 lowly 1st level fighters A, who swear allegiance to 2nd level sergeant B, who swears allegiance to 4th level lord C, who swears allegiance to 6th level king D. Example: The A's and B kill a troll. Each A earns 100XP, gives 5 to B, gets 95 for himself. B earns 75XP, gets 20 from the A's, gives 5 to C, gets 90 for himself. C earns 0XP, gets 5 from B. He hasn't earned enough to give anything to D yet, but after 4 B's each give him 5 XP, he has enough to give 1 to D. The exact percentage may vary depending on the relative level of the characters, but in summary, let's say that every 4th time a troll is killed by the king's minions, the king ends up getting 1 XP. So there's some incentive to be a king and sit on your throne and direct adventuring parties to kill trolls. Conversely, as king you are obliged to outfit your n00b minions and resolve their disputes fairly and so on. In other words, the king earns tiny amounts of ad-hoc XP ("You resolved the troll crisis! Gain 50XP!") for the same jobs adventurers earn large amounts of combat XP for. Now there may be more elegant ways to do this: perhaps the realm, rather than the king, can get the XP, and the king can draw on it to have items made and pay for spells and so on. Or he could take some of the pool to add to his own character XP, or those of his advisors and generals and so on. The point is, the king (or evil lich queen or whatever) gets XP for the vicarious activity of his/her minions, ie for carrying out plots. Some analogy can be drawn to systems involving deities and worshippers. Anyway, what I've described here is nothing more than an outline of such a system, not a system in itself. People who are better at crunching numbers can do that. As to whether it's worth applying an allegiance XP system to Eberron, that's up to your own judgement. I'll wing it, if my game lasts long enough for the issue to become relevant. Currently my PCs are 4th level, one just died last session, and the highest-ranking character who cares about their existence is either a 6th-level paladin of the Silver Flame, who's too "hands-on" to have much political power, or the Boromar family who are kind of annoyed one of their minions was killed, and kind of pleased that it was a minion who was a Dragon-Below worshipping nutcase and was thinking of going over to umm ... the Droaamite thieves' guild whose name I can't remember. I have plans to get them involved in city politics as tools of the Aurum for a couple of levels, but I haven't even contemplated national politics yet.
Xaean 11-20-04, 06:02 AM	In no way Bush is the leader of my country. And my country is part of the free world. Thus Bush is not the leader of the free world. Oohh, yes, the same is true for me and thank God for it!
Alexius D'Cannith 11-20-04, 07:35 PM	well my point is simple, if you have a party who go hey we are level 18 lets take over a country as the king is barely level 12 and some of that is aristocrat, thats what you get for running for a Chaotic Evil party, because in the end overthrowing a lawful government 'because you can and noone can stop you' is chaotic evil behaviour and thats what you have to expect
Neofish 11-20-04, 07:47 PM	Well, after they take over that country, have the Dragons fly in and "deal with them", release a Rakshasha Rajai into thier land, Hell.! Get creative.
Von Ether 11-21-04, 11:59 PM	Well, after they take over that country, have the Dragons fly in and "deal with them", release a Rakshasha Rajai into thier land, Hell.! Get creative. Not exactly. If you kill off all of your freindly PCs (even if they are lower level than you), then who's goinig to take one for the team when the 18th level druid calls a holly jhad, or the 20th level Dykler breaks loose. Forget the levels on the leaders, what's the levels on the bad guys! :)
LazarusX 11-22-04, 02:55 AM	And; if the Hag sisters allow you to conquer the country; they're doing it for a reason....a reason the PC's would never know about; but would soon find out once they obtain absolute rulership ;)
Brastan 11-23-04, 11:09 AM	It does seem that the power problem is a imagination problem. Just skimming Eberron, picking and choosing the crunch rules is a bad way to got about it. The most value portion of the ECS is the story of the World. With that in hand your PCs will never be board. As for rulership I've go a NE Mindbender whose got aspirations of taking over Sharn. Sure he could kill the whole Council but then he'd lose control of the city to small time gangs and coin purses snatchers. There are always ways make things worse for the PCs For kingdom problems I refer you to Birthright or Dragon reprint. Its a pain :) to run a country. Its hard work. Also the progress level will slow and stop with a low-level setting. Once you hit a certain point you can't kill any more 1st-level warriors to go up levels. And there will still be large numbers of 1st level warriors around. The best renewable XP score is social encounters. As you don't kill the people you constantly have to defeat. A challenge over come is a challenge overcome.
heretic44 04-05-05, 11:24 PM	I know this is an old thread, but I was thinking, what happens to a level 15 Party who tries to take on Sharn and goes toe-to-toe with 15,000+ spellcasters of various type with hundreds of thousands of low level scrolls? Thats alot of frikken Magic Missiles my friends. :mymy:
Beleriphon 04-06-05, 12:43 AM	In no way Bush is the leader of my country. And my country is part of the free world. Thus Bush is not the leader of the free world. As an example only, lets not go there. I think the point is that Gerge W. Bush is the leader of the one of, if not the most, powerful nation in the world. To equate it to Eberron, the King Kaius III is only 12th level and a vampire. Thats pretty tough compared to most of the population, but a well outfitted adventuring group of equal level would crush him like a bug. The idea behind Eberron is that people may rule the world, but the PCs are the ones that actually change things. Its tough to argue with the group of 20th level characters that just beat back the next Daelkyr invasion, and have the news papers to back them up.
CowGoMoo 04-06-05, 03:54 AM	I have no problem with government, guard, or even military leaders being low-level. The best fighters in a modern army are almost always corporals and sergeants, and they'll follow even the greenest 2nd lieutenant's orders (usually ;)). I don't see why the same wouldn't hold in a fantasy world, and for the same reasons. (It's a different story in a more "might is right" kind of society, of course.) The exception would be when someone believes that he is in fact so powerful that he can do whatever he wants without suffering consequences. Besides another party of similar strength intervening, nothing's going to stop some level 20 (or higher) adventurers from demolishing all of Khorvaire if they decide to. And I don't really have a problem with that idea, especially since getting to level 20 in the first place won't happen very often. If anything, the genre encourages the idea of ultimately powerful warriors and wizards (typically the latter :)) being nigh-invincible. If I do have a problem, it's in the whole HP system - but that's a whole other topic, and an abstraction I live with for because 3E plays so well. That said, I've always had issue with veteran soldiers not gaining experience. Even if you do take into account the piddling XP offered by CR 0.5 encounters, that's a whole lot of fights they should be getting stronger for.
Hellcow 04-06-05, 04:14 AM	nothing's going to stop some level 20 (or higher) adventurers from demolishing all of Khorvaire if they decide to. Well, the 20th-level sorcerer rakshasas of the Lords of Dust or the Great Wyrms of the Chamber might. There aren't many high-level allies for the PCs to turn to, but that doesn't mean powerful forces aren't out there - forces the PCs may have to fight as epic level characters. So if they're so tough, why haven't the Lords of Dust conquered Khorvaire? A number of reasons. First, if THEY tried to conquer Khorvaire they'd have to deal with the dragons, the Inspired, the Order of the Emerald Claw, and all the other secret forces out there in addition to the good guys. There's a balance of power most people never see. Second, they don't want to conquer Khorvaire. Why bother? What do they get out of ruling humans? Manipulating them from the shadows is more interesting. But once a group of 20th-level players decides to start conquering the world, that upsets EVERYONE'S plans - and that's when the bug guys will start crawling out of the shadows to deal with the upstarts. Another thing to consider is that a well-equipped and focused group with the tactical advantage can take down a higher level group. If you're willing to cheat, if you have surprise on your side, if you're able to pick your equipment and spells to exploit your target's weaknesses, you'll have a big advantage. So once the PCs make themselves a target, they will need to worry about groups like the Trust and House Thuranni; maybe their agents are only 12th level, but with the resources and knowledge of their organizations behind them, they can prove a serious threat to the PC who's used to dealing with obvious monsters instead of intrigue and assassination. Furthermore, there's the issue of maintaining control of any territory - especially when you've got all of the forces mentioned above working against you.
CowGoMoo 04-06-05, 05:44 AM	Well, the 20th-level sorcerer rakshasas of the Lords of Dust or the Great Wyrms of the Chamber might. There aren't many high-level allies for the PCs to turn to, but that doesn't mean powerful forces aren't out there - forces the PCs may have to fight as epic level characters. So if they're so tough, why haven't the Lords of Dust conquered Khorvaire? A number of reasons. First, if THEY tried to conquer Khorvaire they'd have to deal with the dragons, the Inspired, the Order of the Emerald Claw, and all the other secret forces out there in addition to the good guys. There's a balance of power most people never see. Second, they don't want to conquer Khorvaire. Why bother? What do they get out of ruling humans? Manipulating them from the shadows is more interesting. Fair enough, as is the point on lower-level characters taking on higher. I kind of intended the "level 20 (or higher)" to cover my ass in those regards, and would maintain that there is some level at which a few adventurers could mop up. Then again, reaching those heights in the first place may be infeasible. I actually said demolish instead of conquer quite deliberately - 20th level characters wouldn't need much in the way of planning to depopulate a good chunk of the continent before counter-measures were organised.
Thramzorean 04-06-05, 05:54 AM	One of the nicer things about 3.5 is that high level characters can be got at, a lost night's sleep for the 20th level sorcerer still means no new spells the next day, I doubt any pure character type could live in and rule a totally hostile intelligent environment. Any first level commoner can still con a 20th level bighead into heading off to the biggest treasure haul in the universe, or leave a cursed item accidently lying around. You can beat on some people all of the time, you can beat on all of the people some of the time, but...
lostone 04-06-05, 08:24 AM	Any first level commoner can still con a 20th level bighead into heading off to the biggest treasure haul in the universeSounds good, but on paper things are different. It depends on what the 20th level character is, if they are a rogue, they'll have 23 ranks in sense motive :D.
Thramzorean 04-06-05, 08:38 AM	Sounds good, but on paper things are different. It depends on what the 20th level character is, if they are a rogue, they'll have 23 ranks in sense motive :D. Uh-huh, and I suppose the fighter, wizard, barbarian etc etc also all have these 23 ranks? Not only that but the commoner is duped in the first place by someone with 23 ranks in bluff or good illusionist ability (Lords of Dust here we come!) and he/she sincerely believes what they are saying... ;)
lostone 04-06-05, 08:47 AM	Uh-huh, and I suppose the fighter, wizard, barbarian etc etc also all have these 23 ranks? Like I said, depends on the character. But I typically try to max Sense Motive in any character of mine that gets it as a class skill. Not only that but the commoner is duped in the first place by someone with 23 ranks in bluff or good illusionist ability (Lords of Dust here we come!) and he/she sincerely believes what they are saying... ;)Now you're changing things, the original post was the commoner was conning the person, not believing it. In this case, yes the character would have no choice but to believe that the commoner at least believes it. If it sounds too good to be true, most experienced characters will be suspicious anyway, at least with my DM. ;)
Thramzorean 04-06-05, 09:56 AM	Heh, whatever... my point here is that a character still has to function in society in some manner and will always be vulnerable in some manner. A single character is only so much of a problem, D&D is designed to optimize groups. So who is going to take over the world, one super character? I don't think so. And a group of characters is only that, a group, which is also vulnerable to itself. Okay the group's taken over the world, now which of the group is actually going to run it? Or the fighter get's suckered into beleiving the mage has it in for him and infighting does for the lot. Powergaming only works in campaigns it's allowed to work in and to even think that it has any chance in Eberron is pointless without a DM wanting such a campaign. It certainly couldn't happen 'naturally' in the campaign as designed. And at the end of the day extra-ordinary events evoke extra-ordinary responses, the Sovereign Host decides to take an active hands since things have run out of control, whee, we're back to the Forgotten Realms, okay, it's your campaign, you can wreck it as you like... :surrender I'm personally very happy with the balance of Eberron power levels :cloud9:
lostone 04-06-05, 10:01 AM	I'm personally very happy with the balance of Eberron power levels :cloud9:I am as well. While I do enjoy FR, and have spent much of may time playing D&D in that world, it is refreshing to have a world like Eberron where mid-high level characters are the exception, not the rule. In FR when things get bad the PCs can always try to get assistance from some bigwig NPC like Elminster, Symbul, etc. Whereas in Eberron, they are it, sink or swim.
Thramzorean 04-06-05, 10:28 AM	And what I'm waiting for is Keith to trot out his CR 50 Daeklyr in the super Kyhber journey of non-return and thou shalt sink, indeed thou shalt :behold: :behold: :behold: :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :88E: :dragon:... :turkey:
lukelightning 04-06-05, 10:36 AM	I always hated campaigns where the players were supposed to save the world while there are hordes of more powerful NPC's sitting around and doing nothing (a la Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil).
dulsin 04-06-05, 11:19 AM	Each game is different and it is up to the DM to shape the world the way he wants. In the Eberon game I play in the DM has gone the other way. Large formations of powerful characters and monsters patrol the areas and it is common to see multiple powerful NPCs in town. In Droam there were medusas serving tables in bars :eek: Powerful houses rule trade and comerce and have wizards available to teleport in when they are in trouble.
RadicalTaoist 04-06-05, 05:50 PM	Ironically enough, there's a section in the FRCS that answers the original concerns of high-level NPC being needed quite nicely. It's The Concerns of the Mighty, page 84 of the FRCS. I think the CoC means I can't paste out all 7 paragraphs of it (they're short paragraphs). Even more ironically, it's supposed to be a response by Elminster as to why he and the other epic-level good guys of Faerun don't solve all the problems that cover Toril.
Beleriphon 04-07-05, 12:22 AM	Oh yeah, and don't forget the only published character that is 20th level is actually a 210 foot tall tree. Go awakened greatpine go!
Korhal_IV 04-07-05, 03:16 AM	Oh yeah, and don't forget the only published character that is 20th level is actually a 210 foot tall tree. Go awakened greatpine go! The sad thing is, with wildshape, Oalian could be a considerably mobile threat. And if you Dispel Magic on that swallow overhead? 210 feet of tree. Now that's what we call a beatstick. :cool:
D1Tremere 04-07-05, 09:39 PM	The key to power in Eberron is money and political pull. That's why a character's level has nothing to do with how powerful he is. You can be good at killing all you like, but if you don't curry favors and advance your social status you can's expect to do more than work for those who do, eyther directly or indirectly.
Beleriphon 04-08-05, 04:18 AM	The sad thing is, with wildshape, Oalian could be a considerably mobile threat. And if you Dispel Magic on that swallow overhead? 210 feet of tree. Now that's what we call a beatstick. :cool: I theory doesn't Awaken let Olian become mobile? The ECS says that he only spends part of his time in the grove. As is I believe being awakened gives him the abilities of a Colossal animated object with 20 levels of Druid.
Sean Et Cetera 04-08-05, 10:17 AM	...when the 18th level druid calls a holly jhad... It's funny becuase I know you meant to say 'holy', but it came out 'holly', as in the plant, and you are referring to druids. Only druids would go on a holly jihad. ;)