Post/Author/DateTime	Post
vivid_disorder 06-21-05, 06:51 AM	I was originally going to post this to one of the "Why doesn't Eberron have guns?" forums. Then I realised that the thread was too long already, and my post didn't have a lot to do with guns anway. I think we have a problem viewing the world of Eberron and it's development outside of our Earth-based paradigm. It's a mistake to view Eberron as undeveloped, or stuck in a medieval technology level simply because they don't have gunpowder, internal combustion engines and nuclear submarines. In fact, the history of development on our planet has been largely typified by developments in communication, both physical and intellectual. Human beings have progressed as they developed from walking, to riding, to sailing to flying. Intellectually they developed from grunting, to talking, to writing and to printing, until they could communicate with random strangers on internet discussion boards about exquisitely trivial subjects like the level of development on an imaginary planet (I'll bet Guttenberg didn't see that one coming). If we examine Eberron in these terms, it is actually more advanced than Earth in almost every way. Magic, coupled to a high level of social organisation, offers the ability for real-time conferencing, long-distance message delivery and even things we can't do, like instantaneous transportation (if you're rich enough). In the field of medicine, grievous wounds can be healed overnight or instantly, limbs can be regenerated and the dead can be raised (if you're rich enough). Even in the hard sciences, Eberron has the mastery of matter-creation "technologies" that we can only dream of, and treats them as a commonplace (Prestidigitation is a 0-level spell, almost anyone can learn to cast it). Eberron has mass literacy, daily journalism, a free press and compulsory education. They even have democracy (if you're rich enough). The scientists of Eberron don't call themselves scientists, but they have a far greater understanding of their universe, extra-planar multirealities and all, then our cosmologists do. What's more, they can manipulate that reality far more effectively. We perceive Earth as more advanced than Eberron merely because of a bias in our cultural viewpoint which privileges the mechanistic/scientific development we have experienced. But I also think that we misinterpret the world by filtering it through our previous experiences of D&D as a medieval/gothic fantasy RPG. Eberron is not a world of swords and castles, although swords and castles exist. Eberron is a world of skyscrapers and skycoaches, of fantastically rapid travel, remote viewing and sophisticated medicine. It's a world with a recorded history of sentient, planet governing races which is longer than the entire existence of the Human species, in fact Khorvaire has only recently regressed to our primitive level of competing nation-states and that was under the pressure of a century-spanning war. If you were to take out all the references to "magic" and replace them with the words "hyperdimensional nanotechnology" or something suitably futuristic, and change "monster" to "alien race" you could sell Eberron as the setting for a Sci-Fi RPG instead of a fantasy one. That's why it's so gosh-darned clever. Essentially, I will believe that Earth is more technologically advanced than Eberron only when you show me a resurrected corpse riding a hovertaxi driven by an artificially intelligent living robot to a meeting on the top floor of a mile-tall skyscraper on a flying island a thousand metres above London :P .
Zalaz Mavi 06-21-05, 09:00 AM	Comparing magic and science is a tricky proposition. But if I were to make an argument toward who has "more and better," I'd argue that the real world is a few decades more advanced than Eberron. In the area of transportation, our system of roads and highways is an engineering feat unmatched by Eberron. In conjunction, personal transportation, in the form of the automobile, is a convenience readily available to the majority of individuals. Our air and sea travel is faster, safer and more accurate, thanks to advanced building materials and satellite technology. Our communication methods are also superior to Eberron's. The internet allows instantaneous exchange of information, with IM, email, websites, etc. Eberron still relies on newspapers, books, word of mouth and House Sivis. And don't forget telephones and cellphones. Through landlines and satellites, any individual can speak with anyone, most anywhere in the world. The average Eberronian doesn't have such. As far as the height of Sharn goes, remember that it's in a manifest zone. None of the other cities has anything resembling a skyscraper. That's evidence enough that without extra-planar assistance, they don't have the engineering know-how yet to rival our Shanghai. When it comes down to it, Eberron is a nice place to visit every Friday, but I wouldn't want to live there. I'd miss Rubens and a decent cup of coffee too much...
Karlcullinane 06-21-05, 09:26 AM	Just a quick quote from one of my favorite scientists/authors/speakers Arthur C. Clarke: Clarke's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Nothing more to see here, please move on :)
Brastan 06-21-05, 10:55 AM	However these magical advancements are only available to the more affluent in society. Not many commoners can afford to seen message though house Sivis every day or even on weekly bases. They also don't have the reasons to send long distance messages Eathies in developed nations do. While it may be true that elements of Eberron can easily pass our abilities do to magic we have a few trick Eberron doesn't have that doesn't make quite as advanced. Mass production is one of them. The fact that we can set up a automated factory almost anywhere and have it start spewing products like throw away cell phones for mass communication is something Khorvaire's nations can't do. Even House Cannith can't do that. While Khorvaire is more 'advanced' than other settings a the top its still feudal and medieval at the bottom.
Illvillainy 06-21-05, 01:28 PM	I would comparatively place Eberron in mid-to-late 18th Century in terms of the socio-political mindset and the mid-to-late 19th Century technologically.
vivid_disorder 06-21-05, 04:51 PM	Technology on Earth may be more widely available, but that is a function of society, rather than the technology itself. Democratic capitalism as widely practised in Europe and the Americas is not necessarily more advanced than theocracy or autocracy, just different. Eberron is definitely not a feudal society. There is no evidence that I'm aware of for any form of serfdom in Khorvaire - people, even metal people and goblins, are defined as free and equal. The people of Sarlona could be seen as serfs, I suppose, but they wouldn't see it that way. The idea that the majority of people have access to the fruits of scientific advance is a luxury allowed only to those of us who live in the wealthy North of the planet. Even to us, the benefits of scientific acheivement are restricted and exploited by our own dragonmarked houses in the multinational pharmaceutical companies etc. I would say that the transnational nature of the houses, a kind of magic-hoarding zaibatsu, is in itself evidence of sophisticated societal development in large areas of the world. The fact that they choose to restrict access to that technology is a function of greed, scarcity and power, exactly the same as it is here. If we're picking arbitrary examples of superiority, earth couldn't produce anything like the mobile fortress of Argonth, or Karrlakton, and these aren't linked to manifest zones. Wroat is described as having a "skyline". The other cities of Eberron haven't been described, so we don't know how they actually are. Besides, height isn't the only criterion for judging a city. LA isn't very tall compared to Kuala Lumpur, does that mean that LA is a less sophisticated city? As to what the giantish cities of Xen'drik are like, and what wonders they once contained, the mind boggles. Eberron isn't necessarily more or less advanced, it occupies a totally different paradigm of development. I too thought of the Arthur C. Clarke quote that Karlcullinane used, but I couldn't decide which side of the argument it supported :confused:
Gilgiga of the Hunt 06-21-05, 05:16 PM	If we're picking arbitrary examples of superiority, earth couldn't produce anything like the mobile fortress of Argonth Corection see half of the US Navy, as well as a good portion of most the large navys on the planet. The aircraft-carriers are almost synonymous with Argonth.
Bluebrush 06-21-05, 05:29 PM	Technology on Earth may be more widely available, but that is a function of society, rather than the technology itself. One could argue against that from an economics perspective. Basically, you wouldn't pay a man more thanthe value of the good he produces. Most people in Khorvaire are farm workers, who grow food which is sold at a price which garners them a few silver pieces. Not enough to buy even the simplest of magical services. On earth, in our modern era, production technology has advanced to the point where a western-world farmer can produce quantities of food far greater than his medieval counterpart. The value of his work has increased and he can afford more expensive goods because of it, and that's without considering how cheaply we can produce consumer goods today.
aelryinth 06-21-05, 06:58 PM	Anything we have acheived on Earth could technically be duplicated on Eberron, barring an unforeseen law forbidding technological development. Eberron is different because the infrastructure is all people-based...via usage of magic in whatever form. Our infrastructure is object based...anyone can learn to use/master it. The lowest members of our civilization have access to things far more useful then the lowest members of Eberrons civilization. Our industrial might dwarfs theirs, and our research and development is decades beyond them. Eberron could use science, but relies on magic, which means relying on individuals. Society advances when anyone can advance, not just people gifted with magical might. ==Aelryinth
Aneul 06-21-05, 07:54 PM	Eberron could use science, but relies on magic, which means relying on individuals. Society advances when anyone can advance, not just people gifted with magical might. Earth usese science, which means relying on individuals. Just becouse the technology to produce an election filter exists does not mean that I, or for that matter most people, can make on. Science is as dependant on individuals as magic. Sure, the inventions of scientists can be mass produced and made availible to everyone, but without the scientists who discovered how to make them, normal people would not gain the benifits of advanced science. Similarly, a powerful mage can make a wand of Control Weather, and mass produce it via House Cannith so that everyone can have the weather of their choice on any given 50 days, but normal people could not cast control weather in the first place, thus never being able to benifit from magic. Basicaly, it boils down to the idea that human society is dependant on the work of gifted individuals. Wether or not they are useing magic or science is arbitary.
okaynowa 06-22-05, 08:00 AM	I must confess that my own interests in Eberron's "level of development" focus primarily on fashion and set dressing. When my players' characters walk into a village and meet the local sheriff, I want to know if it's plausible for him to have a waistcoat and spectacles or if he's limited to leather armor and squinting. I want to know if the tavern has a dumbwaiter, or just extra goblins. Just as it's difficult for players to disassociate certain concepts from their real world inspirations (the Valenar may be desert horsemen, but they are not parallels of Arabs or Mongols), it's difficult not to read certain objects as locational cues on the real world's timeline. The characters see an oil painting in a noble's hall, they think "Renaissance." They hire a horse-drawn cab in Wroat, they think "Victorian." They spend some time in the Demon Wastes with an orcish paladin, they think "Dark Ages." See my dilemma? Using those technological cues is a convenient way to get the players to visualize the scene around them, since they can infer that where there are wind-up watches there are also chains to hang them from and waistcoat pockets to keep them in. But it can be misleading because Eberron doesn't have a Victorian period as such-- the wind-up watch does not also imply gas lamps and quinine. In our regular gaming sessions, the ambiguity of a fantasy setting's technological advancement rarely causes us any real problems. For the most part, we're content to toss in the pocket watch as a prop and ignore any implications it may have about time management, automation, astronomy, and so forth. It's only when the Clever Richard player wants to use a pocket watch's existence as justification for a non-magical time bomb that I want to pull out what's left of my hair.
Cloud Divider 06-22-05, 11:13 PM	I must confess that my own interests in Eberron's "level of development" focus primarily on fashion and set dressing. When my players' characters walk into a village and meet the local sheriff, I want to know if it's plausible for him to have a waistcoat and spectacles or if he's limited to leather armor and squinting. I want to know if the tavern has a dumbwaiter, or just extra goblins. Well, for what it's worth, I certainly wouldn't find myself terribly concerned about breaking my suspension of disbelief (or canon), if I were to give a pocketwatch out to a village sheriff, or spectacles. I'd think that was pretty cool, really. Now, the catch, however, is whether it's a clockwork pocketwatch, or some kind of nifty low-powered divination enchantment that lets the wearer know what time of day it is... Given the nature of the setting (not too much evidence of clockwork), I'd go with the latter. Considering the importance of being able to tell time (it'd allow you to coordinate military maneuvers, for instance - "All frontal units attack at 6:38 in the morning! B brigade comes in to reinforce at 7:12"; in addition to all the useful things clocks are good for when you're baking or cooking up some alchemical concoction), I can definitely imagine timepieces fitting in. Perhaps not in every household, but certainly among the moderately wealthy and elite. See my dilemma? Using those technological cues is a convenient way to get the players to visualize the scene around them, since they can infer that where there are wind-up watches there are also chains to hang them from and waistcoat pockets to keep them in. But it can be misleading because Eberron doesn't have a Victorian period as such-- the wind-up watch does not also imply gas lamps and quinine. However, you could pretty easily say that Sharn's got a reasonably "Victorian" technological level - we've got trains and fairly developed naval power. Replace gaslamps with Everbright Lanterns, and you're golden. You could even have an equivalent to torchlighters (or whoever the kids were who went and lit the gaslamps in the evenings) - they have some kind of trigger item that they touch to the Lanterns to turn them on; that's also provide a convenient solution as to why the lanterns aren't stolen (the "lighters" are a rather less common item). The colonialism into Q'barra and Xen'drik certainly feels reasonably Victorian to me... In our regular gaming sessions, the ambiguity of a fantasy setting's technological advancement rarely causes us any real problems. For the most part, we're content to toss in the pocket watch as a prop and ignore any implications it may have about time management, automation, astronomy, and so forth. It's only when the Clever Richard player wants to use a pocket watch's existence as justification for a non-magical time bomb that I want to pull out what's left of my hair. Which is one reason why I very quickly proposed the magical solution to the pocketwatch issue. While Eberron may not have the fine metalworking and machine theory to build a pocketwatch, they've certainly got other means of achieving the same end. Generally speaking, I'd figure that for most items our world had a machine for, Eberron has a magical analogue... Instead of a Roomba robot vacuum cleaner, a wealthy home may have an eternal wand of Unseen Servant to sweep up the house.
Beleriphon 06-23-05, 02:42 PM	Corection see half of the US Navy, as well as a good portion of most the large navys on the planet. The aircraft-carriers are almost synonymous with Argonth. True, but aircraft carriers were a simple extrapolation of existing ships. All things considered they really aren't overly impressive when compared to the floating city, on land.
vivid_disorder 06-25-05, 03:34 AM	I think I may have misrepresented my argument. My real point is not to compare Earth and Eberron point-by-point, but to invite ways of seeing Eberron on its own terms. In some ways Eberron is more advanced, in others it seems to lag behind, this is not the issue, as I see it. The issue is that the comparison isn't really necessary. In the same way that Eberron has no direct comparisons to Earth cultures (Breland is not England, Sarlona isn't China etc.), I really don't think that it has any direct comparisons to Human epochs. The world has been conceived from the ground up to demonstrate how society might develop if magical forces were easily accessible and at the bedrock of all social, economic and political institutions. Accordingly it has draconic insight of phenomenal sophistication alongside the Stone Age brutality of the Q'barra jungles (entirely realistic when you consider New York City and Papua New Guinea are less than a day's travel apart by air). But in Khorvaire both this sophisticated culture and its savage counterpart are based on magical prowess, not mechanical. The answer to the question is Eberron medieval or victorian or modern? Yes. Where do Oriental classes fit in Eberron? Everywhere. Which is more sophisticated, Earth or Eberron? Both. It's one of the main things I like the setting, possibly the first postmodern RPG setting, it transcends the genres it references and brings them into a solid framework that we complete by playing in it and add to it. My Eberron might be like a modestly space-age version of the maharabat with potent god fiends on eldritch skychariots saving the world from ultrademons in league with Cthulu. Yours might be like the Knights of the Round table saving damosels in distress. Eberron can handle them both.
vivid_disorder 06-25-05, 03:42 AM	Having said that I don't want to compare Eberron and Earth, I will (I never said I wasn't a hypocrite :) ) I totally agree with Beleriphon: aircraft carriers are mighty indeed, but until comparitively recently (maybe 20 years) nothing came close to the size of Argonth (the USS Nimitz is smaller than Argonth (by the looks of it), but has more people aboard, but that's a state-of-the-art nearly-new nuclear vessel, Eberron might have had Argonth for a hundred years for all I know. And if they can get that to float on land, then just think what Zil shipbuilders have got bobbing about off their coastlines, scaring the bejaysus out of the Darguuni and the Valenar. As to what a Giantish Xen'drik navy looked like a hundred thousand years ago, only the Elves know for sure...
Beleriphon 06-25-05, 03:51 AM	I totally agree with Beleriphon: aircraft carriers are mighty indeed, but until comparitively recently (maybe 20 years) nothing came close to the size of Argonth (the USS Nimitz is smaller than Argonth (by the looks of it), but has more people aboard, but that's a state-of-the-art nearly-new nuclear vessel, Eberron might have had Argonth for a hundred years for all I know. And if they can get that to float on land, then just think what Zil shipbuilders have got bobbing about off their coastlines, scaring the bejaysus out of the Darguuni and the Valenar. Don't forget that its Argonth is one of two floating fortresses. The ECS also implies that there were at one point several more floating fortresses during the last war, but were either sabotaged, or destroyed in battles. To put it into perspective, think about how much power a medival army would require to destory the USS Nimitz in battle, thats the kind of power that a nation in Eberron can bring to bear if necessary.
Owatkiam 06-25-05, 02:02 PM	You can't unbind the technology (or magic, but was is magic but eberron's tech when you get down to it?) from socio-economic factors. Eberron magic is not equal to modern day tech for many of the aforementioned reasons...the most telling reason being the accessibility of it to the masses. I think, however, that with the last war now over, the "technical"(magical) acheivements on the battlefield could possibly begin getting worked into the everyday fabric of society. Think of warforged like airplanes...prior to WWII, the airplane was limited to a few adventurers , gov't, and wealthy individuals. After WWII, it started to slowly become available to the masses(not the least because of all those DC3s now available...). Put constructs in the same light... prior to the last war, constructs were unsophisticated and only available to the rich and gov'ts. Now that Cannith has devised the creation forge, what will happen when they decide to not make warforged, but develop a new creation forge that just cranks out simpler living constructs designed for menial labor? Surely if they can develop the D&D equivalent of a droid, they can also develop simpler industrial robots! So, you could put Eberron right in the middle of an industrial revolution waiting to happen...
vivid_disorder 06-26-05, 03:54 AM	On Earth, the symptoms of the industrial revolution were new developments in the control of energy and resources. The new forms of capital thus created were then concentrated into the hands of a technocratic bourgeoisie, and the formation of mass population centre formed a large urban proletariat, disenfranchised from the political process and divorced from the profits gained from the means of production. This process was accompanied (and to some extent exacerbated by) the creation of nation states, and national vested interests. The early industrial revolution was characterised by widespread warfare as nations attempted to ensure self-determination and exclusive rights to their economic resources. On the basis of these characteristics, I'd say that Khorvaire had its "industrial revolution" sometime around the war of the mark. This could be seen as a classic "industrial war", with ostensible reasons of purity and honour acting as a cover for the forced concentration of capital into the hands of a nascent bourgeoisie (the dragonmarked). In Eberron, magic is Capital. The dragonmarks represent something like the spinning jenny, or Watt's Engine. They are a powerful social force, removing wealth production from its traditional base (on Earth, the landowning aristocracy, on Eberron the traditional magocracy) and into the hands of a new social class (the dragonmarked), who then proceed to use their economic power to usurp the socio-economic power of their predecessors. On Earth, the bourgeoisie have been the dominant social force for at most three hundred years, but the dragonmarked have had Khorvaire stitched up for more than a thousand. It's unsurprising that the masses have no access to magic: how many people get access to Pfizer's research labs? Imagine how it would be if Pfizer were the only pharmatech corporation, and they'd been around since the time of the Pharoahs.