Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lanodantheon 09-10-07, 05:05 PM	In D&D, you can't roleplay everything. Some people strive to, but there are somethings in Fantasy that are taken for granted and left unsaid. A lot of things happen in the background of D&D that never really become issues, so we never really think about them. In this thread, I would like to look at the questions that bug us, the questions about the day to day life of Eberron citizens. The mundane parts of everyday life that shape human beings and would also shape the societies of Eberron. "How do people in Eberron live?" is what I ask. "Who wants to know about that?" "This is important, How?" "You don't know much about medieval life" and "Duh." are the common answers to the questions I have. But I don't want common answers, I'd like elaborated answers. The following list is by no means complete. This is a list of questions that should be expanded as time goes along. Feel free to add new questions, numbered for easy reference, and add new answers to the questions about our characters' lives we think about when we are home alone and the power goes out. These questions are not meant to be silly, Gygaxian questions, they are to be informative. Also, if one of these questions is clearly, definitively answered in either a sourcebook or a novel somewhere, cite it. I will start with the #1 question about Eberron that has been eating my for years because I can't find the answer to it. 1. Do the House Ghallandra Inns (or any Khorvairian home for that matter) have flushing toilets? My answer: I say they would because they have sewers and because Ancient Minos had that technology. 2. Do ""Same"" have showers or communal baths? My Answer: I don't know 3. Do ordinary townsfolk buy food at the local market and cook it at home or do they go to the Ghallandra Inns for breakfast and dinner everyday of the week? 4. Does Sharn have street cleaners or are the streets lined with trash? 5. What do House Phiarlin theatres serve at the the snack bar if they even have one? 6. Do Halflings know how to make Ice Cream? My answer: In my campaign/Gleemax Fanfic it's a Top Secret project out of Sharn. The City of Towers' climate of Hot & Wetter and Hotter & Wetter screams, "Sundae!" 7. To the average person, is the term "Adventurer" just a synonym for "Mercenary"? My Answer: Yes. 8. Do House Sivis Message Houses have Mailboxes for the local area or do they get House Orien to send a courier whenever they get a message for somebody? 9. Does House Ghallandra use Bards to advertise and use jingles to attract customers? My Answer: Yes, in fact it would be additional income for the bards and one reason bards are so common. "Did Somebody sayyyyy GOLD DRAGON?" 10. When someone in a nation with open elections runs for office, do they put up posters? 11. Are businesses run by Warforged open 24 hours a day because the Warforged don't sleep? 12. Are magic Beasts served as food in high class restaurants? 13. Do magic swords need sharpening, cleaned and polished or does +1 actually mean maintenance free? 14. Do all wizards smell because of their material components? My Answer: Yes. Sulfur and Guano smell bad. 15. Is House Jorasco aware of microorganisms? Do they sterilize or do they just use their dragonmark and go, "Be Healed!"? "Does House Ghallandra subsequently pasteurize their milk? 16. Do the newspapers of Zilargo have Classified ads? Those are the questions I have for now and I hope to have more.
Rechan 09-10-07, 05:46 PM	4. Does Sharn have street cleaners or are the streets lined with trash? My first impulse? Unseen Servants and cantrips of Prestidigitation. 11. Are businesses run by Warforged open 24 hours a day because the Warforged don't sleep? More than likely. They likely close down at say, 2am and open again at 6am so the WF gets a "break" to do other stuff. 12. Are magic Beasts served as food in high class restaurants? Depends on location and availability. I imagine Sharn restaurants for instance serve all manner of creature, from Cockatrice to Bulette, that furriers bring in Winter Wolf pelts, etc. These would be delicacies on par with Shark fin soup. What do House Phiarlin theatres serve at the the snack bar if they even have one? The Globe theatre in medieval england served peanuts; the cheap seats floor was littered with shells. Anything cheap and edible would suffice, like bread. 14. Do all wizards smell because of their material components? Bat Guano is likely not "fresh"; feces, after a while, dries out, hardens, and can petrify. When this happens, the scent goes away. I imagine bat guano spell components are formed into a little ball that would only make your fingers stink after handling. It's also easy to have pouches that seal in the smell, as well as "scented" pouches to mask the scent. 15. Is House Jorasco aware of microorganisms? Do they sterilize or do they just use their dragonmark and go, "Be Healed!"? "Does House Ghallandra subsequently pasteurize their milk? Honestly, this depends on if your game world functions on the notion of science. For instance, is sickness caused by germs, or literally by exposure to evil, corruption, curses, etc? Do people have acid reflux, or is one of the elements of the body out of balance (I.e. traditional Chinese medicine explanations that the body is comprised of the Five Elements and when one is out of whack it causes sickness). This is fantasy, so we do not have to ascribe to Things Fall Down = Gravity, but Gravity = Eberron's power literally pulling things downwards. If the answer is "Yes, Germs=Sickness", then yes, I imagine that they realize that cleaning wounds mean better health, that clean tools contribute to better patients, etc.
Nived 09-10-07, 05:55 PM	1. Do the House Ghallandra Inns (or any Khorvairian home for that matter) have flushing toilets? I'm going to say yes, so many of the big cities have sewers. I mean sure they could just be sewers that gutters run into, but I'd rather say they flush, however they'd be more like those old raised tank pull the chain deals. 2. Do ""Same"" have showers or communal baths? I don't know about showers but surely they'd have baths, and some regions may communally bath. Though consider an interesting alternative. Just as some people go to a barber for a shave in the real world... some people may go to a House Ghallandra outpost or a gnomish owned cleaner to be cleaned by Prestidigitation. 3. Do ordinary townsfolk buy food at the local market and cook it at home or do they go to the Ghallandra Inns for breakfast and dinner everyday of the week? I'd say that most people buy and prepare their own food, especially outside of the large cities. In Sharn, Wroat, Fairhaven, Passage, etc you might run into some people who hardly ever eat at home but most people probably prepare their own food. 4. Does Sharn have street cleaners or are the streets lined with trash? On the Skybridge and the Upper Wards they most assuredly do have street cleaners (again I'd like to believe it done by Prestidigitation in the upper wards), the middle districts would likely hire more traditional and mundane means to clean the streets maybe once a month, while the lower wards have all the trash from above tumble down. 5. What do House Phiarlin theatres serve at the the snack bar if they even have one? Can't go wrong with meat on a stick. 6. Do Halflings know how to make Ice Cream? Add milk and cream into device with bound ice paraelemental. Stir. 7. To the average person, is the term "Adventurer" just a synonym for "Mercenary"? No. With the Wayfinders grabbing headlines in the Chronicle and other explorers guilds dotting the landscape, no there is a clear difference between adventurers and mercenaries. You would confuse Edmund Halley (South Pole expeditions), or Edmund Hillary (one of the first to climb Everest) for mercs. I don't believe so. 8. Do House Sivis Message Houses have Mailboxes for the local area or do they get House Orien to send a courier whenever they get a message for somebody? Depends, I'm sure regular residents have S.O. Boxes (Sivis Office Box). For adventurers on the go they get a Gnomish voice in their head (The Sending Spell) telling them they have mail. 9. Does House Ghallandra use Bards to advertise and use jingles to attract customers? Sure, why not? 10. When someone in a nation with open elections runs for office, do they put up posters? Don't think anyone but the Brelish and maybe some part of the Eldeen have elected offices. In Aundair, and Karrnath you have the old noble systems. Q'barra also clings to the nobility of old. Thrane is theocratic, Mror Holds, Talenta Plains and Darguun have ridged clan and tribe heirarchies. But in Breland? Yes it adds to the pulp/noir feel I believe. 11. Are businesses run by Warforged open 24 hours a day because the Warforged don't sleep? Nah even Warforged get mentally bored. After ten hours on the job you want to be anywhere but working. 12. Are magic Beasts served as food in high class restaurants? You bet your ass they are. Not only does Keith's The Shattered Land feature Daine and Co eating some Displacer Beast (my god they can even talk!) in Stormreach... its kinda a plot point in my current campaign. The PCs are big game hunters who started their raise to fame and fortune out in Q'barra at a well known tavern that likes to serve the exotic. Fiendish Thunder Lizards are a delicacy. 13. Do magic swords need sharpening, cleaned and polished or does +1 actually mean maintenance free? I can see the argument... but I'd say yes, unless its keen. 14. Do all wizards smell because of their material components? THAT depends on how long ago they cast Prestidigitation on themselves (can you tell I like that spell). 15. Is House Jorasco aware of microorganisms? Do they sterilize or do they just use their dragonmark and go, "Be Healed!"? "Does House Ghallandra subsequently pasteurize their milk? I'd say yes, most of the healing done by House J is still with heal checks. Get those high enough you probably learn, and share that information. They don't pasteurize they "Purify Food and Water." 16. Do the newspapers of Zilargo have Classified ads? Its been a plot point in games I've played so I'll say yes.
Rechan 09-10-07, 07:03 PM	You CAN have sewers where the "Out House/chamber pot" drains into. It's just a straight drop or a tube. Castles had this; it was just a stone outhouse with a loooong shaft that eventually ended on the ground.
Nived 09-10-07, 07:53 PM	You CAN have sewers where the "Out House/chamber pot" drains into. It's just a straight drop or a tube. Castles had this; it was just a stone outhouse with a loooong shaft that eventually ended on the ground. I acknowledged this Rechan, and truth be told there really isn't that much reason for this to ever EVER come up. However I believe we can accept they have at least a Roman understanding of how to deal with water (Raised aqueducts, and raised water towers to provide running water and fountains). Granted the Romans didn't figure out the curved pipe for the flush toilets... but I don't think it's that big a deal to go ahead and give it to the people of Khorvaire.
taski 09-11-07, 01:00 AM	1. Do the House Ghallandra Inns (or any Khorvairian home for that matter) have flushing toilets? Yes. Most cities and towns have flush toilets. Originally invented by the Dhakaani, the schematics for the flush toilet were preserved by the Zil after the Daelkyr War. The plans had been lost in obscurity until a bulk donation of a gnome's estate to the Korranberg Library. House Cannith worked with the Mror Holds (excellent plumbers) to reverse engineer the device. 2. Do ""Same"" have showers or communal baths? That depends on the location. Showers are mostly only in Galifaran cities and large towns. Karrnath and northern Aundair have hot showers, while Breland and southern Cyre don't bother going above luke-warm -- "Why heat yourself on a day like this?" Rural Galifarans make do with tubs (small towns have running water, but many villages rely on wells and manual pumps). The Zil keep themselves clean and stylish with prestidigitation. The Mror have personal-sized, scented saunas, but they also enjoy communal baths as a traditional gathering place in the dead of winter. 3. Do ordinary townsfolk buy food at the local market and cook it at home or do they go to the Ghallandra Inns for breakfast and dinner everyday of the week? Most townsfolk buy their food at the market, though many villagers have their own gardens. Taverns and pubs still do good business, but more as meeting places for friends than for the food. In the cities, however, restaurants are plentiful, and time and energy are more valuable commodities than raw vegetables. Many city slickers don't even know how to cook. 4. Does Sharn have street cleaners or are the streets lined with trash? In the most wealthy upper districts, skilled magewrights in official city livery keep the streets clean and pleasant with large, hand-pushed magical devices based on prestidigiation. The middle districts that see a lot of traffic also get this treatment, but less often. Some parts of Lower Sharn are tended by sweepers, but some parts are so poor they would steal the brooms. Zilargo's streets never get dirty in the first place. 5. What do House Phiarlin theatres serve at the the snack bar if they even have one? This depends on the venue and clientele. Nuts, berries, or pappadams for the cheap, to pastries (cream puffs to baklava) for the well-to-do. 6. Do Halflings know how to make Ice Cream? Not instinctively. Breland invented the iced fruit-on-a-stick. Karrnath invented ice cream on the one hot summer they had back in 563YK, because they missed winter. 7. To the average person, is the term "Adventurer" just a synonym for "Mercenary"? Adventurers are mercenaries who will take stupider risks. 8. Do House Sivis Message Houses have Mailboxes for the local area or do they get House Orien to send a courier whenever they get a message for somebody? That depends on how much the sender paid. 9. Does House Ghallandra use Bards to advertise and use jingles to attract customers? Of course. Ghallanda has also been known to sponsor Thurrani plays, in return for a plug at the beginning and end of the performance. "And don't forget, folks, to have dinner after the show at the Portly Glidewing, just across the street. Fine Talentan cuisine!" 10. When someone in a nation with open elections runs for office, do they put up posters? Yes, and vandals draw mustaches on them. The politicians have also been known to hire bards to wander and sing of them. This, however, has lead to a number of ridiculously lewd parody songs, by which the politicians are best remembered. One such parody song remains popular today, "Cast your Boat for Noal Lassan," though few remember the original lyrics since Lassan's death over two decades ago. 11. Are businesses run by Warforged open 24 hours a day because the Warforged don't sleep? Yes, but they'll still work in shifts. What's the money for if you don't have time to spend it? 12. Are magic Beasts served as food in high class restaurants? Yes, and some low class ones, too. 13. Do magic swords need sharpening, cleaned and polished or does +1 actually mean maintenance free? They still need maintenance, but less. 14. Do all wizards smell because of their material components? Not all material components stink, and a wizard might not carry their component pouch with them everywhere. A plumber doesn't bring his wrench to the opera, after all. 15. Is House Jorasco aware of microorganisms? Do they sterilize or do they just use their dragonmark and go, "Be Healed!"? "Does House Ghallandra subsequently pasteurize their milk? In my game, yes, they are. Most "germs" work like ours do, but some are magical and alien to our science. These usually require magical means to destroy. Jorasco studies both kinds of germs, and has found that pasteurizing just clears out the normal germs for magical, heat-immune germs to take over. Eberron medicine may have magic on its side, but it also has more challenges to overcome. 16. Do the newspapers of Zilargo have Classified ads? The local papers do, but it costs extra to have an ad printed in the international edition of the Koranberg Chronicle.
Shady314 09-11-07, 07:46 AM	1. Do the House Ghallandra Inns (or any Khorvairian home for that matter) have flushing toilets? Depends on the Inn. If it's in the middle of nowhere at the side of the road. No. Is it the biggest, most opulent inn in Sharn? (or a city with a sewer system) Then probably. I don't know if we'll ever get an official answer to that. 2. Do ""Same"" have showers or communal baths? Communal: No. Showers...? Not sure. Bathtubs? Undoubtedly if you've paid for the high class room. And the Inn has such high class rooms. It requires running water obviously so the Inn at the side of the road doesn't have this. Cheap rooms get filled by bucket. 3. Do ordinary townsfolk buy food at the local market and cook it at home or do they go to the Ghallandra Inns for breakfast and dinner everyday of the week? ??? The market of course. The Inn undoubtedly often serves as a tavern as well but what would make you think Ghallanda is so widespread and cheap they provide the majority of food to all of Khorvaire? 4. Does Sharn have street cleaners or are the streets lined with trash? Street cleaners undoubtedly. Goblins no doubt. 5. What do House Phiarlin theatres serve at the the snack bar if they even have one? What is served at real world Theaters? 6. Do Halflings know how to make Ice Cream? I'll say yes but it's a delicacy and requires magic and was invented by Gnomes. 7. To the average person, is the term "Adventurer" just a synonym for "Mercenary"? Of course not. We just had a 100 years of war and a Dragonmarked house whose sole purpose is the supplying of mercenaries. The average person uses the two words distinctly from each other. A mercenary fights for coin. He's a sword for hire. Of course some adventurers may be mercenaries as well. 8. Do House Sivis Message Houses have Mailboxes for the local area or do they get House Orien to send a courier whenever they get a message for somebody? You must pick up your mail. Only the rich would get it delivered to them. 9. Does House Ghallandra use Bards to advertise and use jingles to attract customers? Whenever possible but BARDS (the class) are rare. My Answer: Yes, in fact it would be additional income for the bards and one reason bards are so common. "Did Somebody sayyyyy GOLD DRAGON?" Excuse me? Bards are NOT common. No PC class is. 10. When someone in a nation with open elections runs for office, do they put up posters? Of course. 11. Are businesses run by Warforged open 24 hours a day because the Warforged don't sleep? It's up to the warforged. 12. Are magic Beasts served as food in high class restaurants? Some. 13. Do magic swords need sharpening, cleaned and polished or does +1 actually mean maintenance free? This one is actually established. Magic swords are maintenance free. 14. Do all wizards smell because of their material components? No. My Answer: Yes. Sulfur and Guano smell bad. That's what a pouch is for. Or Eschew Materials feat. 15. Is House Jorasco aware of microorganisms? Do they sterilize or do they just use their dragonmark and go, "Be Healed!"? "Does House Ghallandra subsequently pasteurize their milk? 1. Maybe. 2. They sterilize because the effectiveness has been realized but probably not because they have an understanding of bacteria. 3. Nope. 16. Do the newspapers of Zilargo have Classified ads? Some.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 09-11-07, 08:10 AM	My takes are in bold: 1. Do the House Ghallandra Inns (or any Khorvairian home for that matter) have flushing toilets? My answer: I say they would because they have sewers and because Ancient Minos had that technology. Depends on the location. The poorer communities probably wouldn't, though the larger/richer they get, the more likely you are to see this kind of thing. In Sharn, where a sewer system definitely exists, it's even more likely. 2. Do ""Same"" have showers or communal baths? I think that's likely, though again it would depend on the area and the tastes of each nation. You're probably much more likely to see something like this in Breland (a social bath house with cool water would be good for the summer) than in Thrane. My Answer: I don't know 3. Do ordinary townsfolk buy food at the local market and cook it at home or do they go to the Ghallandra Inns for breakfast and dinner everyday of the week? They'd cook it for themselves. Buying a good meal from a Ghallandan is something for when you're on the road (the simpler fare), or when you fancy a treat (the good stuff). 4. Does Sharn have street cleaners or are the streets lined with trash? The higher you go, the more common street cleaners will be, but they'll definitely be there. 5. What do House Phiarlin theatres serve at the the snack bar if they even have one? They'd have one I'm sure, perhaps in conjunction with House Ghallanda. They'd serve the typical snacks and drinks, just think what is served in modern day theatres and maybe add a twist. 6. Do Halflings know how to make Ice Cream? My answer: In my campaign/Gleemax Fanfic it's a Top Secret project out of Sharn. The City of Towers' climate of Hot & Wetter and Hotter & Wetter screams, "Sundae!" Sure, though it'd be a House Ghallanda luxury. They'd need magic to freeze it/keep it cool after all. You'd probably be able to find it in any high class restaurant, though. 7. To the average person, is the term "Adventurer" just a synonym for "Mercenary"? Yes. My Answer: Yes. 8. Do House Sivis Message Houses have Mailboxes for the local area or do they get House Orien to send a courier whenever they get a message for somebody? I think it'd be a collaboration between Sivis and Orien. Sivis would collect and sort it, and Orien transport it around. Sivis mailboxes (or maybe Orien mailboxes, if there isn't significant Sivis presence), would be reasonably common except in slums. 9. Does House Ghallandra use Bards to advertise and use jingles to attract customers? I don't see why not. The more important ones might use House Phiarlan to do the advertising for them. My Answer: Yes, in fact it would be additional income for the bards and one reason bards are so common. "Did Somebody sayyyyy GOLD DRAGON?" 10. When someone in a nation with open elections runs for office, do they put up posters? Yes 11. Are businesses run by Warforged open 24 hours a day because the Warforged don't sleep? Some businesses. Remember warforged are pretty rare, not everyone will have a one keeping shop. 12. Are magic Beasts served as food in high class restaurants? Sure. 13. Do magic swords need sharpening, cleaned and polished or does +1 actually mean maintenance free? Up to you...I think they'd need to be cleaned, but not sharpened. 14. Do all wizards smell because of their material components? Gnome wizards don't smell, they have spell-like abilities to take care of that! My Answer: Yes. Sulfur and Guano smell bad. 15. Is House Jorasco aware of microorganisms? Do they sterilize or do they just use their dragonmark and go, "Be Healed!"? "Does House Ghallandra subsequently pasteurize their milk? That depends on how much science you want to inject. I'd gloss over the issue, personally, I don't think its too important, especially considering how effective magical healing is. 16. Do the newspapers of Zilargo have Classified ads? Yes, some, and not just those of Zilargo. Those are the questions I have for now and I hope to have more.
naturax 09-11-07, 11:06 AM	17. How do regular people deal with the fact that anyone they interact with might be a changeling?
Fabius Maximus 09-11-07, 11:25 AM	1. Do the House Ghallandra Inns (or any Khorvairian home for that matter) have flushing toilets? Better: They use miniature portals dumping the waste elsewhere. 2. Do ""Same"" have showers or communal baths? My Answer: I don't know Communal baths? Probably. Showers? Not so much. 3. Do ordinary townsfolk buy food at the local market and cook it at home or do they go to the Ghallandra Inns for breakfast and dinner everyday of the week? Eating out would be too expensive for most folk. 4. Does Sharn have street cleaners or are the streets lined with trash? Either the magical solution, or they just use cheap workers (IOW: goblins). 7. To the average person, is the term "Adventurer" just a synonym for "Mercenary"? My Answer: Yes. Other words: ne'er-do-wells, meddlers, brigands, rogues, etc. 8. Do House Sivis Message Houses have Mailboxes for the local area or do they get House Orien to send a courier whenever they get a message for somebody? Not so much mailboxes, although I could imagine it. I'd say they store the messages for regular customers, and you have to pay extra for delivery. 9. Does House Ghallandra use Bards to advertise and use jingles to attract customers? My Answer: Yes, in fact it would be additional income for the bards and one reason bards are so common. "Did Somebody sayyyyy GOLD DRAGON?" Bards are common? Never new. No, they don't. Because Bards are uncommon and don't come cheap. 10. When someone in a nation with open elections runs for office, do they put up posters? Why not? 11. Are businesses run by Warforged open 24 hours a day because the Warforged don't sleep? Would be another reason for the Warforged-are-stealing-our-jobs-crowd to hate them. 12. Are magic Beasts served as food in high class restaurants? You bet. 13. Do magic swords need sharpening, cleaned and polished or does +1 actually mean maintenance free? In D&D, the latter. 14. Do all wizards smell because of their material components? My Answer: Yes. Sulfur and Guano smell bad. Rose petals offset the bad smells. Wizards do smell weird, though. 15. Is House Jorasco aware of microorganisms? Do they sterilize or do they just use their dragonmark and go, "Be Healed!"? "Does House Ghallandra subsequently pasteurize their milk? I can't see how they'd discover that.
DragoonDarkfire 09-11-07, 11:29 AM	17. How do regular people deal with the fact that anyone they interact with might be a changeling? For the most part Changelings are rare and possible even a myth among people. If a person in the community DID turn out to be a changeling it would probably be a once in a lifetime event. Akin to a mass murderer being found in a small suburban home.
InkBlot 09-11-07, 04:39 PM	1. Do the House Ghallandra Inns (or any Khorvairian home for that matter) have flushing toilets? One of the first published Eberron adventures, possibly the one in the back of the ECS, involves a trip through the sewers of Sharn. These sewers have a means of pushing sewage through pipes, and directing that flow with valves. In fact, one of the hazards was valves that would randomly open and possibly knock you over with a torrent of yuck. I'd say this is, in the least, very strong evidence of flush toilets being commonplace in Sharn. Definitely something more than a simple "stone outhouse with a loooong shaft that eventually ended on the ground."
Rechan 09-11-07, 06:07 PM	For the most part Changelings are rare and possible even a myth among people. Where the hell did this rumor get started? Is there anything in the ECS that suggests the Changeling population is low? RoE? Becuase in S:CoT, the Changeling population is about 6,500. It can't be utterly nonexistant everywhere else.
DragoonDarkfire 09-11-07, 07:28 PM	Where the hell did this rumor get started? Is there anything in the ECS that suggests the Changeling population is low? RoE? Becuase in S:CoT, the Changeling population is about 6,500. It can't be utterly nonexistant everywhere else. A changeling may not be rare but I would imagine one getting discovered would be a huge uproar. Remember most people are 1st level commoners with a few experts and some magewrites. A +10 bonus to disguise is a huge boost to anyone and a changeling getting discovered by some random individual would be nearly impossible unless that changeling was stupid enough to actually change right in front of that person.
Belabras 09-11-07, 08:45 PM	17. How do regular people deal with the fact that anyone they interact with might be a changeling? I think every now and then they react with paranoia, but most people just roll with it. One of the main thrusts of the ECS is that national lines matter far more than racial ones. Thus, a Brelish national would be more scandalized to discover their grocer was a Karn than to discover they were a Changeling. On a more intimate note, in a world where Changelings aren't terribly uncommon, perhaps people focus more on emotional attachment than appearance. Or maybe there's an entire subculture of Changeling wannabes and admirers. Hard to say really, but whatever the case, I would guess it all happens behind closed doors. :incog:
Nived 09-11-07, 09:05 PM	Secret handshakes, family greetings, and the like might evolve from such a culture. Not something said with raised eyebrows and suspicion, but more something very personal and special (like the family prayer in Boondock Saints). Things only known 'by us', are likely part of the culture, a passive protection something likely not taken overly serious.
Meloncov 09-11-07, 09:23 PM	2. Do ""Same"" have showers or communal baths? Inns in rural areas have tubs in the rooms (generally not linked to running water; you/a servant heats it on the stove). In cities, people generally avoid the hassle and go to a public bath. 5. What do House Phiarlin theatres serve at the the snack bar if they even have one? High-end theatres generally won't offer food, but have a wide variety of wine. Lower end theatres serve various types of nuts. 6. Do Halflings know how to make Ice Cream? No. Iced desserts exist, but they are more like shaved ice; chrushed ice flavored with fruit and sugar. Such items are reserved for the very rich, as simultaneously acquiring ice and fresh fruit is very difficult. 7. To the average person, is the term "Adventurer" just a synonym for "Mercenary"? "Adventurer" is a fairly neutral term, and generally refers to people exploring unsettle areas. PCs acting within Khovaire are far more likely to be known as "heroes" or "mercenaries" than "adventurers." 8. Do House Sivis Message Houses have Mailboxes for the local area or do they get House Orien to send a courier whenever they get a message for somebody? House Sivis has its own courier network. 9. Does House Ghallandra use Bards to advertise and use jingles to attract customers? They use bards to advertise, but its more like a preview than an advertising jingle. 10. When someone in a nation with open elections runs for office, do they put up posters? Yes. 11. Are businesses run by Warforged open 24 hours a day because the Warforged don't sleep? No. Warforged get bored as easily as anyone else, and there aren't many customers around late at night. 12. Are magic Beasts served as food in high class restaurants? No; magical beasts are far to much trouble to maintain, and don't taste significantly different from mundane animals. The only place you'll find people eating magical beasts in out on the frontier, where they take whatever they can catch. 15. Is House Jorasco aware of microorganisms? Do they sterilize or do they just use their dragonmark and go, "Be Healed!"? "Does House Ghallandra subsequently pasteurize their milk? House Jorasco knows quite a bit about the origins of diseases and non-magical treatments, but avoids using them in the hopes of preventing anyone else from developing effective healing techniques.
Label 09-11-07, 09:56 PM	Those are the kinds of questions I like to ask myself too... so here's my views : 1. Do the House Ghallandra Inns (or any Khorvairian home for that matter) have flushing toilets? why not? as you said, they have sewers. But maybe in the poor houses they don't. 2. Do ""Same"" have showers or communal baths? yup. it'sn ot just in Eberron, I already seen in a published adventure (third party maybe, or not) prices for baths in Inns. And i'm pretty sure Gallandha offers that kind of service too. It not like create water is a 9th level spell either. 3. Do ordinary townsfolk buy food at the local market and cook it at home or do they go to the Ghallandra Inns for breakfast and dinner everyday of the week? I'd say they buy their food in markets, and once in a while they go to Gallandha. 4. Does Sharn have street cleaners or are the streets lined with trash? Highly plausible. Why do I picture a domesticated rust monster?? 5. What do House Phiarlin theatres serve at the the snack bar if they even have one? If it's a theater play, there is no snack bar. If it's a family activity like clowns and stuff like that, probably sweets. (And ale for the parents:rolleyes: ) 6. Do Halflings know how to make Ice Cream? I'd say yes. 7. To the average person, is the term "Adventurer" just a synonym for "Mercenary"? No. An aventurer does not need to have patrons. I tend to see "adenturers" who have patrons has "employes" or warrants. "Solo" adventurers are fare more glorious (depending on the bard's song about him) than a guy who is paid to kill random goblins. If the average person thinks adenturer is synonymous to mercenary, I think House Deneith has got many more recruits. 8. Do House Sivis Message Houses have Mailboxes for the local area or do they get House Orien to send a courier whenever they get a message for somebody? All messages, whether Sivis- or Orien- delivered, are all kept at house enclaves, waiting for the clients for show up and check for new mail. However, if the sender has put extra money (prices are in the books, somewhere like sharn or dragonmarked) the message can be delivered to a specific adress or person instead. I like to see those offices like the local post office where every morning, before going to the job, people pass-by to check their mail, and buy Chronicles, and gossip with their neighboors. 9. Does House Ghallandra use Bards to advertise and use jingles to attract customers? Yeah it sure can work, but anyway their reputation is already made. 10. When someone in a nation with open elections runs for office, do they put up posters? I think yes, unless that guy has suggestion at will. 11. Are businesses run by Warforged open 24 hours a day because the Warforged don't sleep? Those warforged can do maintenance, or continue work, but I think the "public counter" is closed. 12. Are magic Beasts served as food in high class restaurants? If you can pay for it, yes. Strange "mundane" too. Anyway, as somebody on those boards already said : everything is edible if you make your Fort check. 13. Do magic swords need sharpening, cleaned and polished or does +1 actually mean maintenance free? They are masterwork, and magic, but they still can be sundered. So yes, they need maintenance. 14. Do all wizards smell because of their material components? Yes we all know it's the only reason. 15. Is House Jorasco aware of microorganisms? Do they sterilize or do they just use their dragonmark and go, "Be Healed!"? "Does House Ghallandra subsequently pasteurize their milk? Purify food and drink... and other magical stuff exist to peserve food... but I don't think they are aware it's because of microorganisms. 16. Do the newspapers of Zilargo have Classified ads? Korranberg Chronicle is a viable and trusted source of information. Maybe there is, but they are filtered. Sharn Inquisitive, howerver, is probably filled with it.
Rechan 09-11-07, 10:43 PM	A changeling may not be rare but I would imagine one getting discovered would be a huge uproar. Remember most people are 1st level commoners with a few experts and some magewrites. A +10 bonus to disguise is a huge boost to anyone and a changeling getting discovered by some random individual would be nearly impossible unless that changeling was stupid enough to actually change right in front of that person. Or one who rolled a 1? Or one who just has no ranks in Disguise? Change Shape only provides a +10. Make that +8, because unless the Changeling is trying to impersonate another changeling, they take a -2 for impersonating another race. Disguise isn't a racial skill, they just get a bonus. There's only two or three classes (and one NPC class) with the Disguise skill as a class skill. PC classes are only 10% of Eberron's population. If this goes across the board, that means that only 10% of Changelings are PC classes.
DragoonDarkfire 09-11-07, 11:22 PM	Or one who rolled a 1? Or one who just has no ranks in Disguise? Change Shape only provides a +10. Make that +8, because unless the Changeling is trying to impersonate another changeling, they take a -2 for impersonating another race. Disguise isn't a racial skill, they just get a bonus. There's only two or three classes (and one NPC class) with the Disguise skill as a class skill. PC classes are only 10% of Eberron's population. If this goes across the board, that means that only 10% of Changelings are PC classes. Yea and you're forgetting something. NPC classes, especially commoners aren't going to be adept at figuring out whether or not changelings are changelings or not. Want example? OK for the sake of argument we'll assume the typical roll on a d20 is 10. Halfway point. A changeling gets a +8 bonus to this. With a common ability arrangement if he were to put the highest ability (about a 12 or so) into charisma that gives him an extra +1 to Disguise. This is assuming that he has no skill ranks in disguise at all. That's a +9 and a typical DC is a 19. Now a typical human commoner with a 12 in Wisdom would have a +1 bonus to Spot. That's a typical roll of 11. If we factor in skill points then the +1 bonus becomes +5, 4 skill ranks and the wisdom bonus, assuming a human commoner would put that many skill ranks in Spot and not in some much more useful skill like profession or appraise. That's still a typical roll of 15 and hardly enough to uncover a changeling WITHOUT ranks in disguise. And imagine a changeling who would take ranks in disguise. Changeling's growing up would naturally learn that other races fear their powers and would more than likely develop their skill to disguise themselves. A changeling commoner wouldn't have disguise as a class skill and the most he could gain from it would be a +2 bonus (for cross class) but that raises his disguise skill to a typical roll of 21. Also take into account that a changeling might even take skill focus (disguise) as a feat, thus giving him a typical roll of 24. You'd need the expertise of a keen eye'd rogue to find a changeling like that. Hardly something a 1st level commoner could accomplish. Also keep in mind that a changeling commoner wouldn't just wake up in the morning and go "Hmmm... I think I'll be the farmers wife today!" any changeling who's heard stories about towns executing changeling's on the simple assumption they're spies or assasins wouldn't do something like that. He'd have already made a human or other racial identity for himself and used that particular identity for the rest of his life. For example. Bob the fisherman is a changeling, he IS Bob the fisherman and lives that life fully. He only hides his real face to prevent himself from being persecuted for his race. He gets up every morning and takes a 10 on his disguise check (I checked the Players Handbook and it doesn't mention that you can't take a 10 so I'll assume that you can since disguise seems like the kind of skill you can take your time with) and this gives him an 18-24 on his DC. Depending on how many skill points he invested in disguise. No ordinary man is going to simply shout out "BOB IS A CHANGELING" unless Bob does something that actually incriminates him as such. ADVENTURER changelings are the ones who take risks with their disguise and impersonate nobles. They're the ones that have the skill and the resources to survive in the big leagues, and they're also the most likely to get discovered since they're in the spot light. Average Joe changeling isn't going to be found out any time soon. Not unless something happens or he does something stupid.
Rechan 09-11-07, 11:46 PM	Dragoon, there's nothing in Races of Eberron or any other Eberron Product that suggests what you're talking about. Hell, RoE says that Changelings are just as distrustful of each other as others are of them. Notice distrustful, not hated, feared, bloodthirsty murderers towards, etc. There is more precedence in the Eberron books for prejudice against Warforged than there is against changelings. There's no suggestion about executing changelings, nothing that suggests that people fear them. Yes, it states that it's an uproar in a community when a PASSER is discovered. I don't believe this is because they are a changeling, but because the passer is overtly deceiving them. This is your neighbor, your friend, your husband, who you have let into your house, and here he has been stomping on your trust the entire time. It is a personal betrayal, not one born of a racist over the race of the changeling. It may be in your campaign that Changelings are feared and rarely exposed and totally foreign to commoners, but that is not stated to be the norm.
DragoonDarkfire 09-11-07, 11:59 PM	Dragoon, there's nothing in Races of Eberron or any other Eberron Product that suggests what you're talking about. Hell, RoE says that Changelings are just as distrustful of each other as others are of them. There is more precedence in the Eberron books for prejudice against Warforged than there is against changelings. Frankly Edy and several other members here have a low opinion of Races of Eberron fluff and frankly I agree with them. Also: How is that honestly against my point? It just means changelings hide themselves from each other as well. Kinda agreeing with me actually... There's no suggestion about executing changelings, nothing that suggests that people fear them. Yes, it states that it's an uproar in a community when a PASSER is discovered. And wouldn't most changeling commoners BE passers? I don't believe this is because they are a changeling, but because the passer is overtly deceiving them. This is your neighbor, your friend, who you have let into your house, and here he has been stomping on your trust the entire time. Depends really. Is it any more disgraceful than when a man you've lived with your entire life reveals himself as being homosexual despite the fact the rest of the community wasn't aware he was gay? Obviously a huge difference there but the principal is the same. Yes passers do get squashed for being deceitful but doesn't the ECS say that nearly all changelings are deceitful by nature? It may be in your campaign that Changelings are feared and rarely exposed and totally foreign to commoners, but that is not stated to be the norm. So please don't act like it is. Isn't most crap in Eberron subjective to open opinion and interpretation? I mean if you're going by that logic should I point you toward the Crimson Talisman?
Rechan 09-12-07, 12:20 AM	Frankly Edy and several other members here have a low opinion of Races of Eberron fluff and frankly I agree with them. So you agree that there's nothing that backs up your argument. Then how about the ECS, page 13: Nobody in his right mind trust a changeling completely, they are viewed with great caution, but many people have interest in making business with them. Most treat them with extreme caution. See? If changelings were rare and no one knew about them, then they wouldn't be viewed with caution because they wouldn't be viewed in the first place, and there wouldn't be "manY' people to have interest in making business with them. Also: How is that honestly against my point? It just means changelings hide themselves from each other as well. Kinda agreeing with me actually... The specific passage: Changelings often view each other with the same prejudice they feel for other races. It means that Changelings are the bigots, not other people. And wouldn't most changeling commoners BE passers? No? Is there something about a passer that somehow benefits toiling the soil or other skills? Depends really. Is it any more disgraceful than when a man you've lived with your entire life reveals himself as being homosexual despite the fact the rest of the community wasn't aware he was gay? Not really, no. In both situations, the person is parading around as a charade, hiding who they really are. And naturally the community reacts badly to it. The degree of the reaction though depends upon the progressiveness or conservativeness of the community. Obviously a huge difference there but the principal is the same. Yes passers do get squashed for being deceitful but doesn't the ECS say that nearly all changelings are deceitful by nature? No, it doesn't, at all. If you can find that passage, please quote it. Isn't most crap in Eberron subjective to open opinion and interpretation? I mean if you're going by that logic should I point you toward the Crimson Talisman? The novels are not canon. The ECS is. If it spells out something in the book then that's just how it is by default. If the book says little to no one knows Kaius is a vampire, then you can't rightly claim that's 'subjective'; it's spelled out.
Ryuu_Tenshi 09-12-07, 12:30 AM	Re: Theatre snack bars. 5. What do House Phiarlin theatres serve at the the snack bar if they even have one? The Globe theatre in medieval england served peanuts; the cheap seats floor was littered with shells. Anything cheap and edible would suffice, like bread. Pretty sure they served oranges, too. In fact... while Rennisance Faires are generally historically inaccurate, most of the stuff that people walk around selling is probably fair game. Thus, stuff similar to pretzels (if those exist), fried bread, questionable-thing-on-a-stick... if you say ice cream exists in your world I could even see a slightly more expensive place having an elemental-bound cooler where they keep ice creams for hotter climates. However... that pretty much only covers low-class theatre. That's stuff like the aforementioned Globe, kind of common entertainment. Higher-class theatre generally has higher class food, if it has food at all. I can see Philaran having partnerships with Galhanda, perhaps even small dinner theatres as an experiment, or a resaurant in the same theatre. I've been to theatre of all types. From my experience, we have: My college theatre - cheap-o! Popcorn, soda, and candy. Your average community theatre / local place - a little nicer. Still soda, popcorn, and candy, but you can also get better chocolates, and sometimes alchohol. The Kennedy Center - has restaurants ranging from a nice snackbar (chocolates, wrapped sandwiches, etc) to an extremely high-class, expensive balcony restaurant which you MUST dress for. Food is -not- allowed in the seats in most of the venues, though I think if you have a box seat at the opera you're allowed to have drinks and small amounts of food (it's been a while since I've gone) Cirque du Soliel - La Nouba (DisneyWorld) - VERY nice chocolates, but also just plain popcorn and soda. Also serves alchohol. I don't think most Philarian establishments would go the "college theatre" route with ubercheap food, that would likely be independent small establishments. I think the smaller venues for the common folk would be more like the community theatre - inexpensive food, maybe some cheap stuff for the masses, and a few nicer things. I definetly think they would have at least one VERY nice place similar to the Kennedy Center, which might also serve as a guildhall, with EXTREMELY nice eating establishments and "snack bars" So there you have it.
Rechan 09-12-07, 12:43 AM	Further sidenote on theatre food: Popcorn can be created with low tech. I remember reading a book set in the pilgrim days of New England, and the characters popped popcorn. Naturally it wasn't salted or buttered, but the technique exists.
Ryuu_Tenshi 09-12-07, 12:47 AM	Further sidenote on theatre food: Popcorn can be created with low tech. I remember reading a book set in the pilgrim days of New England, and the characters popped popcorn. Naturally it wasn't salted or buttered, but the technique exists. Dude, the native americans had popcorn. Hell, I think they discovered remains of popcorn in a neolithic cave. Basically you take specially prepared dried corn and heat it. Not much else to it, man.
DragoonDarkfire 09-12-07, 11:38 AM	See? If changelings were rare and no one knew about them, then they wouldn't be viewed with caution because they wouldn't be viewed in the first place, and there wouldn't be "manY' people to have interest in making business with them. By "many people" I would assume the only people who would actually want to deal with a changeling would be a crime lord or street thug who most likely heard about changelings and their reputation as being rogues. Remember we're talking about average Bob commoner here. Why would a farmer, fisherman or blacksmith want to deal with changelings or even concider trying to get in touch with one. Only reason I could see is if he wanted some illicite materials or substance and heard a rumor "From a cousin's friend" about a race of people who live among you who can alter their appearance to look like anyone. Then he'd go and try to look for this "someone" which would be fairly hard since they'd be difficult to find out. Frankly I don't see every commoner in Eberron looking for changelings to buy illegal stuff off of. The specific passage: It means that Changelings are the bigots, not other people. Bigots? Where did that come? A bigot is someone who is intolerant of other peoples life styles or culture that are different from his own. But from the sound of it changelings seem to have the habit of adopting cultures and lifestlyes into their own being. Hardly bigotry. And of course Changelings are predjudic toward each other. Because changelings are willing to perecute other changelings as long as it means they can keep their identity. Think about the neiche changelings fill in society. With elves you have beautiful and fair humanoids with skill in arcane magic, they can easily win the respect of a human society with their charm. You have dwarves which are master craftsmen and blacksmiths, they can win the respect of a village or community with their craftsmenship. But what about changelings? What do they have? Their greatest ability is their power to alter their appearance at will. How do you put this into practice? Does it put bread on the table? The only real proffession that this trait could possibly benefit would either be that of an actor or a theif. And since I don't read anything about Famous Changeling Productions I tink changelings are more culturaly opted to take the latter option. Personally I think both humans and changelings could be responsible for their reputation and prejudice. If humans woul stop jumping to the conclusion that changelings are theives and drug dealers (keep in mind that this is a negative steryotype as much as elves are arrogant pricks and dwarves are loud mouthed drunkards. Bad steryotypes but partially rooted in truth) and changelins would actually stop stealing and lieing then I think we'd have a pretty good society for them. But the flawed nature of man prevents such a thing from happening so I guess it's just one of those vicious circle kind of things. No? Is there something about a passer that somehow benefits toiling the soil or other skills? Well think about a passer for a moment. If he could get away with working in a human community as a changeling all his life then why is he even BOTHERING to disguise himself in the first place!? I mean if what you're suggesting is that changelings are marginally respected for their skills by the common man, not the brash adventurer who's looking to fight the Emerald Claw, but an ordinary commoner who abides the laws of his nation and carries a good sense of national pride. Then why are passers even hiding themsleves in the first place when Races of Eberron are constantly mentioning how afraid they are of being discovered. Not really, no. In both situations, the person is parading around as a charade, hiding who they really are. And naturally the community reacts badly to it. The degree of the reaction though depends upon the progressiveness or conservativeness of the community. Sadly enough I'd think the most progressive place in Eberron is Sharn. Thus explaining why so many changelings are there. So I would assume that yes, a changeling might be respected in Sharn or in some other big cities underworld. But as a whole? I wouldn't think so... No, it doesn't, at all. If you can find that passage, please quote it. Perhaps I'm just assumeing things here but think about it from a cultural standpoint. You grow up with the power to change your appearance to look like nearly anyone or anything. Remember human nature's tendancy for decite and now think about the fact that people will believe your lies almost 70% of the time. I'd assume that as a changeling growing up you'd learn just how easy and fun lieing is to the people of your community and how well you can get away with it when you add your disguise in. I'm just assuming here but from the looks of it a changeling would just seem to take to lieing as second nature. Do you think I'm wrong? And if so can you tell me what a changeling commoner would be more like? The novels are not canon. This hasn't EXACTLY been said by Wizards or Keith (who did mention that while the Dreaming Dark isn't cannon because of that Warforged component in SoX, other books might be.) so I'd say that yes the Crimson Talisman isn't cannon. Simply because it got something so culturaly wrong with Eberron no one would consider it cannon. The ECS is. If it spells out something in the book then that's just how it is by default. If the book says little to no one knows Kaius is a vampire, then you can't rightly claim that's 'subjective'; it's spelled out. Oh and you're acting like there are no problems or loose ends in the Eberron books? Like how the ECS say's that the Silver Flame is a great force of good while the myriad of other books seems to potray it as some secretly evil organization bent on converting everyone to their faith? Not exactly a contradiction but the argument is still open to interpritation (as can be seen on the boards). Frankly Changeling Society seems kinda like the Mourning or Xen'drik to me. You can't exaclty say what it is since so very little is said about it. The quotes you provided me are vauge at best and can be interprited in several different fasions. Frankly I'd say that people's opinions on changelings (which this argument is about mind you) are mostly up to the DM to decide since I have yet to read something that tells me the people's opinions on them. If you have a specific passage about what the common people of Khorvaire think of changelings then I'd like to read it.
InkBlot 09-12-07, 12:28 PM	if you say ice cream exists in your world I could even see a slightly more expensive place having an elemental-bound cooler where they keep ice creams for hotter climates. All D&D worlds can easily have refrigerated wagons and cold storage rooms. Eberron, most of all, should have put this simple feature of the classic dungeon to it's logical use: Brown Mold (CR 2): Brown mold feeds on warmth, drawing heat from anything around it. It normally comes in patches 5 feet in diameter, and the temperature is always cold in a 30-foot radius around it. Living creatures within 5 feet of it take 3d6 points of nonlethal cold damage. Fire brought within 5 feet of brown mold causes it to instantly double in size. Cold damage, such as from a cone of cold, instantly destroys it. A cold storage room would be as simple as an insulated room with a patch of brown mold in the back. There would be a cage around the mold to prevent people from coming close enough to get hurt. If patches smaller than 5 feet produce similarly smaller areas of cold, then you could even have household refrigerators. You don't have to worry about your food getting moldy, because brown molds feed on heat - not food. All you need to keep the brown mold alive is a torch on the end of a long pole. Harvesting could be done with a scrapper on the end of an equally long pole, or by unseen servants. There's probably a whole industry based around harvesting brown mold and building cold-storage rooms for restaurants.
ornitholestes 09-12-07, 10:17 PM	1. Do the House Ghallandra Inns (or any Khorvairian home for that matter) have flushing toilets? I imagine some would and some wouldn't I bet wealthy houses and buildings probably do, but rural areas and slums probably don't have running water. After all, outhouses may be rare but are still around toady. 2. Do ""Same"" have showers or communal baths? I would bet some do, but not all. Showers are probably rare and communal baths may be culturally accepted in some places and not in others. 3. Do ordinary townsfolk buy food at the local market and cook it at home or do they go to the Ghallandra Inns for breakfast and dinner everyday of the week? I imagine the average townsfolk does go to the market and home cook most of their meals. However, in larger cities restaurant food is more common, and a typical worker may enjoy it at least one or twice a weak. People with some money or employed in stressful/fast paced jobs probably eat out quite a bit. 4. Does Sharn have street cleaners or are the streets lined with trash? Both, upper class distracts are probably cleaned daily with heavy fines for littering. Middle class distracts aren't to bad and get a good sweeping once or twice a weak. Poor districts, like the cogs, might be quite filthy. 5. What do House Phiarlin theatres serve at the the snack bar if they even have one? All of the choices above are good possibilites and in more high-class establishments you may get food that is nearly impossible in the real world. Prestidigitation can flavor food or drink, allowing for many strange and exotic foods. 6. Do Halflings know how to make Ice Cream? I bet someone does, not sure who though. 7. To the average person, is the term "Adventurer" just a synonym for "Mercenary"? This really depends upon your campaign and its flavor. In a more light hearted "pulp" campaign people may well see more of a difference then their actually is. Adventures may be considered exciting and popular figures and might write stories based upon their travels and give exciting lectures to packed crowds at the universities and clubs. 8. Do House Sivis Message Houses have Mailboxes for the local area or do they get House Orien to send a courier whenever they get a message for somebody? Probably both depending upon the wealth of the clients and importance of the message. 9. Does House Ghallandra use Bards to advertise and use jingles to attract customers? Maybe, if not bards by class probably bards by profession (that is experts with ranks in perform). 10. When someone in a nation with open elections runs for office, do they put up posters? Sure why not? A derivative question - how much magical cheating goes on in important elections? 11. Are businesses run by Warforged open 24 hours a day because the Warforged don't sleep? Maybe for some dedicated individuals but I imagine most warforged want some time to themselves. Then again, a warforged *might* adopt to work a very concentrated shift - work for three days straight so you can have a full four days off a week. 12. Are magic Beasts served as food in high class restaurants? I imagine in rare and high-priced establishments. People in the real world will pay big money to eat all sorts of things just to say they have. Plus, I would wager people attribute all sorts of strange properties (real or imagined) to the meat of these creatures. "They say unicorn meat brings good health, manticore increases virility, and displacer beast helps lose weight." 13. Do magic swords need sharpening, cleaned and polished or does +1 actually mean maintenance free? If they need any, not much. 14. Do all wizards smell because of their material components? Depends upon wizard, some probably do. Many, however, use their magic (and probable wealth) to give themselves exotic and pleasant smells. 15. Is House Jorasco aware of microorganisms? Do they sterilize or do they just use their dragonmark and go, "Be Healed!"? "Does House Ghallandra subsequently pasteurize their milk? Purify food and drink do better, but I imagine they have some working knowledge of infection and plague. I really like taski's answer on this one, and I bet there are many disease with a magical character. 16. Do the newspapers of Zilargo have Classified ads? Probably, but maybe not as many as modern periodicals.
The Dreaming Duck 09-12-07, 11:26 PM	Remember we're talking about average Bob commoner here. Why would a farmer, fisherman or blacksmith... Do you think I'm wrong? And if so can you tell me what a changeling commoner would be more like? Sure. I think he'd be a farmer. Or a fisherman. Or a blacksmith. Or an artist. Or an innkeeper. Or a sailor. Gnomes have a racial bonus to Alchemy, but is every gnome an alchemist? Elves know how to use swords and bows, but is every elf a soldier? Halflings are far better criminals than changelings when it comes to burglary and pickpocketing... but is every halfling a burglar? You're assuming that because a changeling commoner has the ability to disguise himself, he will automatically turn to crime. Setting aside philosophy and turning purely to mechanics, the majority of changelings are commoners. First level commoners, in fact. Yes, the changeling's ability to DISGUISE himself will be better than his counterpart commoner's ability to penetrate that Disguise. But as a commoner, Bluff, Sleight of Hand, Disable Device, Gather Information, even Knowledge (local) - aren't class skills. His combat abilities are actually worse than members of many other races (elves have weapon proficiency and higher dex, half-orcs have more strength, dwarves have more con, halflings are good with thrown weapons, have better dex, and the size bonus to hit and AC, shifters have higher dex and may sprout claws or sharp teeth, humans have extra feats and thus a greater chance for, say, Toughness, and warforged... don't get me started on warforged) so mugging isn't a great option. His class skills do, however, include Craft and Profession - the two skills that most commoners use to make their livings. Thus, I think it's ridiculous to assume that the TYPICAL passer commoner is a criminal, because he simply doesn't have the skill set for it. What he DOES have is an excellent chance to maintain his passer identity while he lives whatever life he feels like living, using the Craft or Profession he has chosen to follow. People who fear and distrust changelings do so because any changeling COULD be a criminal, and because frankly, it's creepy. This is the sort of thing that is likely to force many towards a passer lifestyle, concealing their true nature. But it's not going to force them to BECOME criminals; instead, their natural power is what lets them escape the prejudice and follow any profession they choose, like a commoner of any other race. With that said, with actor and criminal as paths to follow, let's not forget that path in between, the prostitute. We know of at least one high-end brothel in Sharn where people know they're dealing with changelings, and the whole point is that you can get any fantasy fulfilled. Obviously, that's Sharn, but I can see a lot of wealthy people across Khorvaire keeping a changling mistress/gigolo on the side to fulfil those dark desires. And one last thing: Let's not forget that changeling's racial ability doesn't change their clothes. That does put a big limit on things. You can't impersonate a city guard on the spur of the moment without a guard's uniform. And if you grab my purse and run off, you'd better have really nondescript clothing or a quick-change planned. If you're trying to impersonate my husband Joe as part of a con job, you'll need clothes that fit Joe. So again, it's GREAT for the passer who only uses it to maintain a single identity. It's good for the prostitute or actress who has clothes provided with the job. And it certainly has its uses for crime. But the TYPICAL changeling - the commoner who can't afford shiftweave - isn't Mystique. So in my opinion, the typical changeling commoner will be... a typical commoner, who happens to be a changeling, and likely uses his racial ability to conceal the fact that he is a changeling from those around him. There may be MORE criminals among the changeling subculture than others, but I don't see it as being anything like "50% of changelings turn to crime."
The Dreaming Duck 09-12-07, 11:31 PM	magical beasts are far to much trouble to maintain, and don't taste significantly different from mundane animals. Say what now? I realize you're talking about your own personal campaign, but this seems like a sad path to take to me. A gorgon breathes gas that turns people to stone. Beef and venison taste different, and neither of them has the magical ability to turn a creature to stone. Personally, I play that creatures with innate magical powers DO taste significantly different, because it's a fascinating thing to explore. What WOULD a gorgon taste like? In The Shattered Land Keith Baker has displacer beast maintaining its characteristics after death (which seems unlikely, but perhaps there's some special preservation technique being used), so it has the novelty factor of appearing to float off the plate. I agree that you wouldn't get gorgons being raised as livestock - too dangerous - but I see no reason to rule out exotic taste to creatures with innate magical power.
Rechan 09-12-07, 11:56 PM	All D&D worlds can easily have refrigerated wagons and cold storage rooms. Eberron, most of all, should have put this simple feature of the classic dungeon to it's logical use: A cold storage room would be as simple as an insulated room with a patch of brown mold in the back. There would be a cage around the mold to prevent people from coming close enough to get hurt. If patches smaller than 5 feet produce similarly smaller areas of cold, then you could even have household refrigerators. You don't have to worry about your food getting moldy, because brown molds feed on heat - not food. Funny that you mention this. In the "Shackled City" adventure path, there's an Inn that actually has brown mold in an insulated box in a room they use as a freezer. When we went to SPOILER the inn, we looted the mold, took it into town, and sold it around.
Rechan 09-13-07, 01:09 AM	Remember we're talking about average Bob commoner here. Why would a farmer, fisherman or blacksmith want to deal with changelings or even concider trying to get in touch with one. Because a changeling can be a customer to Bob the commoner. Do you think the blacksmith is going to say "Oh no you're a changeling you can't buy my sword" or Bob the farmer is going to say "Oh no you can't buy my corn"? Bigots? Where did that come? A bigot is someone who is intolerant of other peoples life styles or culture that are different from his own. You seem to forget that a bigot is also prejudice against race. Changelings being distrustful of others, including their own racist, is pretty much universally racist. And of course Changelings are predjudic toward each other. Because changelings are willing to perecute other changelings as long as it means they can keep their identity. Where are you getting that? There's NOTHING that suggests that. There's nothing that suggests changelings out each other. But what about changelings? What do they have? Their greatest ability is their power to alter their appearance at will. How do you put this into practice? Does it put bread on the table? Actor: "I can assume any role, and have no need of makeup." Amateur Escort: "Sure, I can look like a total babe so you can show off to your friends how you can land such a hot girl." Bounty Hunter: "Who expects the little girl to serve you a summons to court?" Private Eye: "Why yes Mrs Kalum, I can see if your husband is willing to cheat on you by following him, seeing if he's hanging around a woman, assume her form later and see if he will make advances on me." Professional Alibi: "You want perfect attendance in this guy's class, but you want to go to a party? Sure, I can sign your name and take notes." Professional Art Subject: "Tell me the appearance of what you want to paint, I'll make it, then pose accordingly." Professional Criminal or Vigilante: that form is their costume, and they can pull a quick Superman in a Phonebooth to suit up. Professional Impersonator: "Sure, I can look like the King of Breland for your party, you want me to say these funny jokes while I look like him?" Prostitute: "What do you want to have today?" Psychologist: "Describe your father to me; I will take his appearance, and then you can confront him as you never had the chance to." Sketch Artist: "Describe to me the man that attacked you, I'll try to look like him." Undercover Cop: "Those dreamlily smugglers never saw me in uniform because this face is new." Well think about a passer for a moment. If he could get away with working in a human community as a changeling all his life then why is he even BOTHERING to disguise himself in the first place!? The same reason why some immigrants move here and go to Little (Insert Country) versus some immigrants who try assimilate as hard as they can: identity. The whole issue of what Races of Eberron talked about was an issue of Identity. The question of "Who am I?" Changelings don't have their own culture to fall back on. They truly are "You can be anything, you can be anyone, but you have to figure out what you want to be." Passers are just more comfortable pretending to be another race. They latch onto a race and try to blend in. This allows them a security blanket, a "stereotypical identity". It's the "short cut" way to form an identity, if you will. However, to do this convincingly, they can't just expose themselves as a changeling, because that ruins their identity. They're not Bob the Human commoner, they're Bob the Changeling Pretending to be a Human Commoner. That ruins what they are trying to achieve. I mean if what you're suggesting is that changelings are marginally respected for their skills by the common man, not the brash adventurer who's looking to fight the Emerald Claw, but an ordinary commoner who abides the laws of his nation and carries a good sense of national pride. Nope, never said they were Respected. I however reject the notion that they are feared. The book spells out "Caution" and "distrust". Then why are passers even hiding themsleves in the first place when Races of Eberron are constantly mentioning how afraid they are of being discovered. In Current American society, there are people who closet homosexuals. They are afraid of being outed as a homosexual. Homosexuality is accepted by the majority of society. Even so, they don't want to accept what they are, and would rather hide it. Why then would these people be so scared of it being uncovered? Why would they not want anyone to know? Because they don't want to accept it. They don't want to deal with the stigma They attach to it. They don't want to deal with the imaginary hassle and the overblown prejudice that they think is attached to it. A lot of it is in their head and it's a lot of self loathing. On the flip side, there are those who are Loud and Proud about being out and they don't give a damn WHAT you think. And in the middle there are those who don't draw attention to it, but will admit if asked. Because their sexuality isn't pivotal to their personal identity. The same can be said for changelings. Passers are the "I don't want to fool with it, I'd rather just be someone else." Other changelings can be Loud and Proud of being a changelings. Others can be more lazy about it, or put more priority into other things. In Eberron it is said that Nationality holds more importance than Race; a Brelish Dwarf and Elf are going to feel more comfortable in the same room than an Aundairian Dwarf and a Brelish Dwarf. So a changeling could put his priorities on Nationality first, and what he is (his profession, his religion, his preferences) above what his race is. Joe the Brelish Commoner had to decide whether his neighbor was a Karn Human or a Brelish Changeling, I think he'd choose the changeling over the Karn. Remember human nature's tendancy for decite and now think about the fact that people will believe your lies almost 70% of the time. Except in Khorvaire there's more than humans. Elves might have a wholly different nature. Remember, the ECS spells out that Halflings like changelings, because they have a lot of common ground. I'd assume that as a changeling growing up you'd learn just how easy and fun lieing is to the people of your community and how well you can get away with it when you add your disguise in. I'm just assuming here but from the looks of it a changeling would just seem to take to lieing as second nature. The problem with this is that 1) The fun wears off. 2) You have to keep track of your lies. That is very hard to do. 3) In a small community, you can only do so much before folks start to catch on. Sure, I expect teenage changelings or ones with a low attention span to do it, but eventually they figure out that they need to do actual work and make a living. Do you think I'm wrong? Yes. And if so can you tell me what a changeling commoner would be more like? That's like asking me "What's a black person like?" The answer is "It Depends." There are so many different things at play. What country are they in? What part of that country? What was the place they were born like? What were their parents like? What is their background like? What is the community they're living in now like; is it urban or rural, conservative or progressive? And most importantly, How does the changeling view themself AND their ability? The more conservative AND rural the place, the less likely the changeling is to be open about being a changeling. The more progressive and/or urban, the more likely. In Breland or Karnnath I expect the people to not care; Breland as a whole is more "progressive", and Karnnath because, to put it simply, Life Sucks there. Thrane it may be iffy; while Changelings could be seen as deceptive, an open changeling could also be a very loud and proud Flamer, and thus he could be believed to be virtuous and thus not a liar. If Joe the changeling commoner's dad Bill the commoner was open, and everyone in the small community knew Bill, then Joe isn't going to have any problems being open about being a changeling, because the community knows Bill is good people. If Joe doesn't care what people thinks about him then he'll be open, even if he doesn't get any trust. If Joe wants to be left alone, he'll pass. Joe could take pride in being a changeling; it's "counter culture". He could see it as a form of advertisement (being in a profession where it can assist him, as mentioned above). He could see changing shape as we see changing clothes; a means of expression. He could see it like being able to pick something up with his toes; a cute parlor trick but otherwise irrelevant to daily life. There are an infinite number of possibilities. To just make a blanket statement like "Other than adventurers, no body sees changelings because they're rare because they hide" is in my opinion wrong. It's a generalization. All elves don't act like x, and neither do changelings. It may be that way in your game, but that's just not how it is in the setting as presented. This hasn't EXACTLY been said by Wizards or Keith (who did mention that while the Dreaming Dark isn't cannon because of that Warforged component in SoX, other books might be.) so I'd say that yes the Crimson Talisman isn't cannon. Simply because it got something so culturaly wrong with Eberron no one would consider it cannon. Actually, what Keith's said (and specifically about that) is this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=894786): I've seen a number of posts on boards stating that in Eberron, the novels "aren't canon" - as if WotC has made some sort of official statement to this effect. I don't know if that's actually true. I know it's true in MY novels, because of the clear example of the docent Shira - a magic item that plays an important role in The Dreaming Dark novels. This item is also presented in the Secrets of Xen'drik sourcebook, but absolutely nothing is said about its fate in TDD or any of the TDD characters. For me, one of the foundational aspects of Eberron since the very begining is that if the world is a novel or a movie, your PCs are the heroes. I don't want you overshadowed by novel characters. For me, events in a novel should serve as inspiration; this COULD happen in my campaign, but MY players would be the main characters. Thus Shira - I want YOUR players to be able to get ahold of her, and the story that evolves as a result may be entirely different from what happens in The Shattered Land. But that's MY preference. I've said in a lot of places that it's what I prefer, and that it's how *I* will write things. I'll note that the Sulatar drow first appeared in TDD, and I then included them in SoX, so that's an example of something that appeared in a novel that is now canon. But what I DIDN'T describe is their encounter with the characters from TDD. I don't mind the novels exploring the world - but when you sit down at your gaming table, I want your characters to be the heroes of your novels. So personally, I'm not planning to shoehorn Pierce or Daine into the official landscape of Eberron (despite Lei and Pierce's appearance in the artwork of Dragonmarked); they belong in the novels, and the sourcebooks are the resource for you to create your own story. But again, that's MY preference - I've never seen anything official from WotC saying that they back me up on it. If someone else has, please point me to it - I'd love to know about it. Oh and you're acting like there are no problems or loose ends in the Eberron books? No? Way to really distract from the point there. I say to you that the book spells out something, thus it's not subjective, and you respond with "Oh yeah so you think the book's perfect?" Frankly Changeling Society seems kinda like the Mourning or Xen'drik to me. You can't exaclty say what it is since so very little is said about it. That's because by and large changelings don't HAVE their own society. They're a lot like half-elves in D&D; they aren't given their own society and culture, they are expected to just follow the crowd. But seriously, read the racial entry in the ECS about Kalashtar. How non-vague is that? The quotes you provided me are vauge at best and can be interprited in several different fasions. Frankly I'd say that people's opinions on changelings (which this argument is about mind you) are mostly up to the DM to decide since I have yet to read something that tells me the people's opinions on them. I've yet to read something that tells me what people's opinions of elves or dwarves or shifters are. The only thing I've read that tells me what people's opinions of Warforged are is the anti-warforged people. If you have a specific passage about what the common people of Khorvaire think of changelings then I'd like to read it. I've all ready quoted it to you: Nobody in his right mind trust a changeling completely, they are viewed with great caution, but many people have interest in making business with them. Most treat them with extreme caution.
The Dreaming Duck 09-13-07, 03:40 AM	Private Eye: "Why yes Mrs Kalum, I can see if your husband is willing to cheat on you by following him, seeing if he's hanging around a woman, assume her form later and see if he will make advances on me." Professional Alibi: "You want perfect attendance in this guy's class, but you want to go to a party? Sure, I can sign your name and take notes." Professional Art Subject: "Tell me the appearance of what you want to paint, I'll make it, then pose accordingly." EXCELLENT ideas, Rechan. Professional alibi is great. Sure, a lot of the ones you've suggested (like celebrity impersonator) would be more likely to occur in a big city, but given that Sharn has something like 6,000 changelings, it's some great ideas to play with. The idea of a changeling improv comedian doing celebrity impersonations either as stand up or for all the things we'd get, say, an Elvis impersonator to do is both priceless and logical. The sketch artist gives entirely new possibilities for the police line up. Just tossing out a few more: Body Double: As shown both by Saddam Hussein and Queen Amidala, if someone's gunning for you, it's good to have a few doubles around. Channeling Priest: I see a whole Sovereign subtradition here. If one looks to the Santeria tradition of letting the spirits "ride" the priest or the tradition of speaking in tongues, what about an order of changeling priests who seeks to let the Sovereigns (or great priests of the past) speak through them, letting the spirit transform their body to serve its needs. Sure, they could just be making it up, but there's lots of religions in our world with this sort of beleif - the changeling would just be able to take it a step farther and truly give his body to the god. Clown: Set aside actor for a moment. Even if you have no skill in Bluff, appearance along could let you pull some wacky stage shows - get six changelings and do various "He went in door A, but comes out door B!" gags. Lots of fun with the changeling Three Stooges. They'd be the toons of Eberron - you hit me on the head with the fake hammer, and I can actually make an enormous lump grow out of my head. All sorts of slapstick potential. Practice Dummy: Variant of the psychologist you suggest. I want to go out with the beautiful cheerleader, but I'm too shy to talk to her. So I hire you to impersonate her and talk to you - to play through scenarios until I'm comfortable. Alternately, I want to take out my frustrations on my boss, talk with my wife who lives a thousand miles away, or whatever. Beyond this, there's so much more that you could do with it. So far I've mainly focused on the passers, who use it to hide. But if I'm loud and proud, I can change my skin color to express my mood, to match my clothes, to match the weather. I can change my nail color with no need for a manicurist or enamel. Changeling friends or subcultures could develop their own secret codes; who needs foot taps or bandanas when your eye color can be your indicator? I still maintain that the average commoner will be... an average commoner. But you're right, there's lots of ways to use shapechanging that don't involve crime. Going back to other stuff... Their greatest ability is their power to alter their appearance at will. But that's the thing. This isn't their "greatest" ability. It's their natural ability. Ask a changeling painter what his "greatest ability" is, and what do you think he'll say? To us, it's remarkable. To them, it's not. A gnome gets a bonus DC to illusion spells and a bonus to alchemy, but not every gnome is an illusionist with ranks in alchemy. A Cannith heir could possess the Mark of Making and still want to be a poet. Shapechanging isn't something they choose, or something they have to base their lives around; it's simply part of who they are. Some may decide that they will use it for their livelihood; others may simply enjoy the fact that they can change their hairstyle every day. Or you have the passers, who enjoy the fact that people don't know they are changelings. Well think about a passer for a moment. If he could get away with working in a human community as a changeling all his life then why is he even BOTHERING to disguise himself in the first place!? Rechan has touched on this, but Keith Baker also covered it in the "Why Changelings Are Cool" thread. Specifically, people's attitudes towards changelings will vary dramatically from community to community... and CHANGELINGS' attitudes will vary accordingly. The changeling born to the lone passer in a rural village - whose father has never revealed his true nature to anyone but his wife - has a secret to keep. On the other hand, the changelings of Lower Tavick's Landing actually have a representative on the city council. Beyond this, it's spelled out in the ECS. No one trusts a changeling. Some choose to live with that. "I'm a changeling. Deal with it. If you want a body double, I'm your guy." But the passer is the person who doesn't want to live with that distrust... who'd rather hide from himself than face people's paranoia. He may not HAVE to do it - but he may suffer socially unless he does. Just like in our world, some people don't care about your race, religion, or sexual orientation, while others have all sorts of prejudices about it that could keep you from getting a job, cause fights, or cause someone to be afraid of you for no good reason. Perhaps it's not going to be a problem with you if I mention I'm a Muslim. But with all the mess in the Middle East, a lot of people in Smalltown will conclude that I'm a terrorist and a traitor, and I don't want to deal with that @#$# - so I keep it to myself. If I go to Bigtown, or to a smalltown that has a local population of changelings, they know better, and there I might choose not to hide.
Rechan 09-13-07, 04:25 AM	Beyond this, there's so much more that you could do with it. So far I've mainly focused on the passers, who use it to hide. But if I'm loud and proud, I can change my skin color to express my mood, to match my clothes, to match the weather. I can change my nail color with no need for a manicurist or enamel. Changeling friends or subcultures could develop their own secret codes; who needs foot taps or bandanas when your eye color can be your indicator? Funny you should mention that. The last time I had this argument, I came up with some alternative changeling personalities (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=870297) because I was unsatisfied with the limited options in RoE. One of the personalities often exhibited what you just described, their appearance often changing to match their emotions, or other effects. It spawned a second thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=869819) that offered three other personality types. While it's not for the Commoner Changeling, there are other options. Body guard. For the same reason that Bounty Hunter works; no one expects the pretty girl on the client's arm, or that young kid twenty feet away, to be able to protect the client. Races of Eberron offers Changelings a substitution level for an Egoist psion and a transmuter wizard. Both of these are magical forces that change the body. I would also propose that Telepath makes sense for a changeling, because their doppelganger ancestors could Detect Thoughts. This is unlocking the power of their innate capacities. Also, something I think is neglected is martial arts. Imagine a changeling monk who focuses his discipline into developing his Change Shape ability for offensive purposes. The fighting style revolves around growing thinner or shorter to dodge a hit, lengthening his arm to make a strike, changing the line of his spine so he can bend backwards further to dodge, etc. This style would have no mechanical reflection (unless you wanted to create feats for it), it's just thematically appropriately.
DragoonDarkfire 09-13-07, 01:53 PM	Because a changeling can be a customer to Bob the commoner. Do you think the blacksmith is going to say "Oh no you're a changeling you can't buy my sword" or Bob the farmer is going to say "Oh no you can't buy my corn"? OK. I SAID "Why would people want to get in contact with a changeling" and you presented the exact opposite scenerio. A changeling coming in contact with a man. Of course Bob Changeling is gonna go to the farmer to get his corn and his water. But why would the farmer specifically go looking for a changeling to deal with? No the farmer ain't gonna withold corn from him and the blacksmith ain't gonna withold a sword. But Gregor the judge or Tom the inquisitor might accuse him of a crime he didn't commit. If a changeling goes walking about a small village in his natural form all the time, don't you think people might start getting a bit suspicious of him? Or of each other since they know there's a changeling in their presence? You seem to forget that a bigot is also prejudice against race. Changelings being distrustful of others, including their own racist, is pretty much universally racist. No one trusts a changeling. Even a changeling. I'd assume that's more of a "No one trusts me so I can't trust anyone!" kind of thinking than an actual prejudice. I think you're confusing allocations of caution with hatred. Think of it like this. Changelings aren't like elves and dwarves. They don't have their own culture or community. They grow up in human settlements and usually in lower conditions. I think they're more self serving due to circumstance than to race. Where are you getting that? There's NOTHING that suggests that. There's nothing that suggests changelings out each other. Again this is speculation. You're hiding amongst humans and trying your hardest to be a part of a community, then you hear that another changeling has been dicovered in your society. What do you do? If you defend him then what might people think of you? That you're defending a man who's been hiding his face from everyone. You might wind up under suspicion yourself. In this instance it's much safer to simply oust the changeling and go with the community then wind up on people's bad side and under suspicion yourself. Changelings aren't mentioned as being risk takers or the bravest of the lot so I'd say that they're not really on ANYONE'S side. Back to the self serving attitude again. Amateur Escort: "Sure, I can look like a total babe so you can show off to your friends how you can land such a hot girl." You mean a prostitute? :P Bounty Hunter: "Who expects the little girl to serve you a summons to court?" That's really more of an adventurer sort of thing than a commoner proffession. Private Eye: "Why yes Mrs Kalum, I can see if your husband is willing to cheat on you by following him, seeing if he's hanging around a woman, assume her form later and see if he will make advances on me." Again. More of an adventurer. Professional Alibi: "You want perfect attendance in this guy's class, but you want to go to a party? Sure, I can sign your name and take notes." Not exactly LEGAL there either. Professional Art Subject: "Tell me the appearance of what you want to paint, I'll make it, then pose accordingly." Kinda similar to escourt and more of a part-time job than anything else. Professional Criminal or Vigilante: that form is their costume, and they can pull a quick Superman in a Phonebooth to suit up. Uh... I kinda already said criminal. And I didn't know commoners went out as vigilante's every night. Maybe Eberron isn't as PC oriented as I thought. Professional Impersonator: "Sure, I can look like the King of Breland for your party, you want me to say these funny jokes while I look like him?" Can be illegal under certain circumstances. Prostitute: "What do you want to have today?" An excellent staple of Changeling culture and tradition! Psychologist: "Describe your father to me; I will take his appearance, and then you can confront him as you never had the chance to." Would require some formal education and I'm not even sure psychology exists in Eberron... Sketch Artist: "Describe to me the man that attacked you, I'll try to look like him." WOW a notepad! What an amazing proffession! Undercover Cop: "Those dreamlily smugglers never saw me in uniform because this face is new." Ya know, for a topic about slice of life Eberron you seem to be mentioning a lot of classes only PC's or important NPC's would actually take. The same reason why some immigrants move here and go to Little (Insert Country) versus some immigrants who try assimilate as hard as they can: identity. The whole issue of what Races of Eberron talked about was an issue of Identity. The question of "Who am I?" Changelings don't have their own culture to fall back on. They truly are "You can be anything, you can be anyone, but you have to figure out what you want to be." A nice assesment. Passers are just more comfortable pretending to be another race. They latch onto a race and try to blend in. This allows them a security blanket, a "stereotypical identity". It's the "short cut" way to form an identity, if you will. However, to do this convincingly, they can't just expose themselves as a changeling, because that ruins their identity. They're not Bob the Human commoner, they're Bob the Changeling Pretending to be a Human Commoner. That ruins what they are trying to achieve. Uhhhh... well it's not a bad theory but isn't it a bit STUPID? I mean if the changeling has to decide whether or not to be Bob the changeling commoner who lives in his society and be an average Joe who can yuk it up with his friends at the bar. Or Bob the changeling who's pretending to be Bob the human commoner who has to try and hide his identity all the time while constantly worrying about the reprocussions of what would happen if he were found out. Wouldn't the changeling who understands the importance of not taking stupid risks decide just to come out as a changeling from the start so no body is really feeling shocked or betrayed? I mean the typical changeling you describe seem to be the reality seekers. But from the sound of it they only started coming out and making communitys after the last war so I don't quite know what to say about them... Nope, never said they were Respected. I however reject the notion that they are feared. The book spells out "Caution" and "distrust". Which, ironically, are associated with fear. In Current American society, there are people who closet homosexuals. They are afraid of being outed as a homosexual. Homosexuality is accepted by the majority of society. Even so, they don't want to accept what they are, and would rather hide it. That's funny cause I live in Canada, which is renouned for being a tolerant society, and if there's even a small SUGGESTION you're gay in this community people will laugh at you. Hate to break it to you but most homosexuals that I know (keep in mind these are the ones that I know so if you're growing up in different circumstances then I could very well be wrong) were in the closet because they were afraid of what people would think of them. They had already accepted that they were gay. Of course that's just what they told me... Why then would these people be so scared of it being uncovered? Why would they not want anyone to know? Because they don't want to accept it. They don't want to deal with the stigma They attach to it. They don't want to deal with the imaginary hassle and the overblown prejudice that they think is attached to it. A lot of it is in their head and it's a lot of self loathing. Ah yes. So you're saying passers aren't openly changelings because they don't want to accept their changelings... Not a bad theory. But the question remains of how many changelings actually ARE passers in this vein. For starters we can assume that Becomers are the most likely changeling adventurer (as said in Races of Eberron I believe, I don't have the book on hand but I'll check once I get home) and Reality Seekers have only been around (or possibly out in the open) for a little while so I'd say that yes. Passers would be the most common changeling commoner. Or is there a particular passage that says otherwise? On the flip side, there are those who are Loud and Proud about being out and they don't give a damn WHAT you think. Reality Seekers. And in the middle there are those who don't draw attention to it, but will admit if asked. Because their sexuality isn't pivotal to their personal identity. Possibly a becomer. If under the right circumstance. I'll have to say more later...
Label 09-13-07, 02:53 PM	All those posts about changelings, while interesting, can be in their own thread.
The Dreaming Duck 09-13-07, 04:17 PM	Label is right (though I would argue that these questions are still relevent to daily life in Khorvaire) so I'll make this my last post on the subject here... I'd suggest moving it to this thread. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=906487&page=2) I'll cross-post this there. OK. I SAID "Why would people want to get in contact with a changeling" and you presented the exact opposite scenerio. A changeling coming in contact with a man. Why would I seek out a human? Or a dwarf? I think his point ties to mine. A changeling commoner is still a changeling commoner. In a village with only a single passer, we fear the changeling. In a place like Sharn, there are thousands of reality seekers. There's a changeling representing the changeling district on the city council. Will I SEEK OUT a changeling? No. But I want to buy a sword. I go to the blacksmith, and there's a changeling at the anvil. Do I suddenly run away? What, do I think he's going to steal my identity? He's a blacksmith. He's got a storefront. It's been in his family for three generations. Among other things, you haven't addressed my point that disguise alone isn't the key to all crime... and in fact, relying purely on natural disguise a changeling isn't the master of shapes you seem to think. Aside from the fact that he can't change his clothes, he gets a -2 for impersonating someone outside his race, so we're down to +8. He'll get further penalties for age category and gender, but we'll assume he's sticking with that. But we then have the fact that opponents get a +4 to +10 bonus to Spot checks based on how well they know the person he's trying to impersonate. If I'm a changeling child, I'm not going to find out how easy it is to fool people, because it's not easy to fool people. Even if I'm just changing to another child of the same gender and the person I'm trying to fool merely recognizes the child (as opposed to be a friend or heaven forbid his parent), I'm down six points on my bonus. If the person who looks at me is an elf or half-elf, they've got their racial bonus working for them. All it takes is Alertness, cross-class Spot ranks, or them to know the kid better than "I've seen him before" and I'm in the hole. Not great odds, and I'll get in trouble if I'm caught. But wait! I don't need to impersonate someone specific. I'll get away with it because I'll impersonate someone no one knows. And in this hypothetical village where people are so paranoid of changelings, they won't be equally paranoid of strangers... especially when they know the stranger could be a changeling? Beyond this, if the point is that I could make up an identity so people won't know I committed a crime, humans have been doing that for ages - it's called "Wear a mask" (or a bandana, or a stocking). If I was going to hold up a liquor store, I could grab a ski mask. The fact that the changeling can make his own ski mask doesn't suddenly make him the master criminal. Think of it like this. Changelings aren't like elves and dwarves. They don't have their own culture or community. They grow up in human settlements and usually in lower conditions. I think they're more self serving due to circumstance than to race. This would be a really good time to move to the thread I mentioned above, including as it does this post: (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13596266&postcount=32) (Changelings) don't have culture or history to fall back on - which means that every changeling community will be different... As a first-generation changeling born to (and unwanted by) an Aundairian family, the ways of the third or fourth-generation changelings of Dragonseyes will be completely alien to you; the culture that's been developed by the Gray Tide will be something else entirely. As a changeling you need to determine who you are - a task made all the more difficult by the fact that you are whoever you wish to be. Will you conform to societies' fears and suspicions, using your talents for personal gain? Will you merely hide your true nature? Or will you find a place in the world that accounts for who and what you are? It's not that they have no communities whatsoever - it's that you have a scattering. Some changelings grow up among other changelings; others grow up hidden in fearful human communities. There's almost 170,000 changelings in Breland, and another 40,000 in Aundair, and unlike sexual orientation, this is something that's inherited, so whether or not you hide it from your community, you won't hide it from family. So it's easy to see how changeling communities would arise in larger cities, like Dragonseyes in Sharn. That's really more of an adventurer sort of thing than a commoner proffession. You've really missed the point. You're looking at the name and saying "adventurer", not at what they are DOING. What he's suggesting is jobs that could be done purely with use of disguise. He says "Bounty Hunter", but he really means "Process Server". I know Process Servers, and they don't need to even be experts; they need to deliver a summons to a particular person. Yes, an expert would be great at it - Knowledge (local), Spot, Hide, Bluff - but if you don't have a dedicated expert, Disguise and a bonus to Bluff and Sense Motive will hold you in good stead. His example of private eye isn't an adventurer at all.... did you READ it? It's "I'll go hit on your husband as a hot blonde and see if he bites." "Professional impersonator - can be illegal" - tell that to the millions of Elvis Impersonators out there. For that matter, I know of a professional George Bush impersonator who performed FOR GEORGE BUSH - Karrnath might be different, but I don't see Breland slapping such a person in jail. "Psychologist would require some formal education"... like "Profession: Psychologist", a class skill for commoners. Personally, I'd want my psychologist to have Sense Motive, but with cross-class skills, skill focus, and a 12 Wisdom, he could still get a +8 modifier - quite good. Undercover cop - Again, you miss the point. A community needs police. It doesn't HAVE lots of people with PC classes to fill the role. You're not looking for a guy to fight the crooks - you'll bring in the warriors for that. You're looking for someone to assume the identity of a complete stranger and try to buy illegal substances. The guy who does the sting operation. And one changeling can be a complete stranger as many times as you need him - a hard thing for our cops to do. He doesn't have to be a master detective - though if I were him I'd get a 12 Int, put cross-class ranks in Disguise, Bluff, and Sense Motive, and throw Skill Focus on one of them. Beyond this, you still haven't addressed my point that there's no reason a changeling commoner would have to choose a profession that has anything to do with disguise. A Passer certainly wouldn't; he's trying to hide the fact he's a changeling, and the best way to do that is maintain a single identity and not change. And why should a reality seeker? He doesn't want to hide his identity. Hence, they could be blacksmiths, farmers, whatever... or translators. As long as we're talking about racial abilities, the changelings have another one: Natural Linguist. A first level changeling commoner with a 12 Intelligence could speak a total of seventeen languages (including Common) if he took no other skills. That's a little extreme, but let's try this: Interpreter: Changeling Com 1; CR 0; AL N; Str 8, Dex 9, Con 10 , Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 11; Skills: Disguise +0 (+10), Knowledge (Geography) +5, Knowledge (local) +5, Sense Motive +4; Feats: Educated; Languages: Common, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Riedran. Great guy to have around in Sharn: Knowledge (local) to help you find your way, Knowledge (geography) to know about the cultures of the people you'll deal with, can converse fluently with everyone from Riedrans to Talentans. He can assume a form that fits wherever it is you want to go - heading down into Malleon's Gate? Good thing you've got a hobgoblin with you. I threw two points into a cross-class rank in Sense Motive to help him keep an eye on things for you;you could easily ditch two more languages get another one. Where would he get the education? Seems EXACTLY like the sort of changeling business I could see appearing in Dragoneyes or its counterparts in Passage or Fairhaven - a legitimate business for reality seekers. Even passers could go there to learn the skills and then take them elsewhere. But from the sound of it they only started coming out and making communitys after the last war so I don't quite know what to say about them... What makes you say that? If it's something in RoE, I thought you hated the fluff; I certainly do. Sharn, on the other hand, has an active changeling community, a number of businesses openly owned by changelings, and changeling on the city council. Somehow I doubt this all happened over the last two years... if so, they managed to get a lot of influence very quickly and there's no suggestion that people are freaking out about it. That's funny cause I live in Canada, which is renouned for being a tolerant society, and if there's even a small SUGGESTION you're gay in this community people will laugh at you. I live in a very red state in the US. I also happen to live in a very liberal town IN that state, and homosexuality is certainly oppenly accepted here. That's the point Hellcow was making on the other thread. There are no global rules. If you grow up in the frightened paranoid village where no one's ever seen a changeling and they believe chagelings steal babies, of course you're going to hide it. If you've grown up in a community of 6,000 other changelings, you're going to lead a very different life. And in a nation with 170,000 changelings, I expect that there are villages that are ENTIRELY composed of changelings. Why not? The simplest way to get away from that prejudice is to start your own community. And in that community, will the commoners be con artists? Or will they be farmers, fishermen, and blacksmiths? Anyhow, I'll drop it now - or at least move it to the other thread.
Rechan 09-13-07, 04:33 PM	Doublepost on my part. Ahem.
Rechan 09-13-07, 04:36 PM	I'm putting my post about changelings behind a spoiler block, to avoid overly spammy derailments. :) OK. I SAID "Why would people want to get in contact with a changeling" and you presented the exact opposite scenerio. A changeling coming in contact with a man. Of course Bob Changeling is gonna go to the farmer to get his corn and his water. But why would the farmer specifically go looking for a changeling to deal with? It didn't say that they specifically go looking for If a changeling goes walking about a small village in his natural form all the time, don't you think people might start getting a bit suspicious of him? Or of each other since they know there's a changeling in their presence? No. They grow up in human settlements and usually in lower conditions. That's speculation on your part. There's nothing that supports that. And they live in elven and dwarven communities too. If you defend him then what might people think of you? That you're defending a man who's been hiding his face from everyone. You might wind up under suspicion yourself. In this instance it's much safer to simply oust the changeling and go with the community then wind up on people's bad side and under suspicion yourself. So humans clearly can't defend changelings because then they'll be thought of changelings too? I think that's too much of a narrow interpretation. You mean a prostitute? :P No. The difference between an escort and a prostitute is that if you pay an escort, you're not paying for sex. There's little guarantee of sex. That's really more of an adventurer sort of thing than a commoner proffession. No it's not. Do you know what bounty hunters do in real life? They take court summons to people. Occasionally they look for bail jumpers. Again. More of an adventurer. No it's not. Not exactly LEGAL there either. Not illegal either. Kinda similar to escourt and more of a part-time job than anything else.[/quote] Art subject = prostitute? How the hell do you get that? Can be illegal under certain circumstances. And your point is? Just because it CAN be illegal doesn't mean that the Eberron equivalent of an Elvis Impersonator is not a legitimate career choice. An excellent staple of Changeling culture and tradition! Do you have a point besides sarcasm? Would require some formal education and I'm not even sure psychology exists in Eberron... Why not? WOW a notepad! What an amazing proffession! Okay now you're just being rude. So you think that the authorities being able to actually see what a criminal looks like is pointless. Uhhhh... well it's not a bad theory but isn't it a bit STUPID? I mean if the changeling has to decide whether or not to be Bob the changeling commoner who lives in his society and be an average Joe who can yuk it up with his friends at the bar. Or Bob the changeling who's pretending to be Bob the human commoner who has to try and hide his identity all the time while constantly worrying about the reprocussions of what would happen if he were found out. No? I don't see what's stupid about it. Having an identity crisis and going for the easiest option isn't "stupid". And even if it is "stupid", a "stupid" choice doesn't negate that it's done often. I mean, owning a credit card is a "stupid" choice, but people still do it in droves. Wouldn't the changeling who understands the importance of not taking stupid risks decide just to come out as a changeling from the start so no body is really feeling shocked or betrayed? That in and of itself has its own risks and problems. Again, go back to the whole issue of identity which the passer is running away from. I mean the typical changeling you describe seem to be the reality seekers. No, reality seekers expose themselves because they're looking for some vaguely defined "true pure form" or some nonsense. Which, ironically, are associated with fear. Uh, no it's not. That's funny cause I live in Canada, which is renouned for being a tolerant society, and if there's even a small SUGGESTION you're gay in this community people will laugh at you. And in Canada it's legal for homosexuals to marry, and they likely have rights too. You may face ridicule, but your lifestyle is recognized as a legitimate one. Hate to break it to you but most homosexuals that I know (keep in mind these are the ones that I know so if you're growing up in different circumstances then I could very well be wrong) were in the closet because they were afraid of what people would think of them. They had already accepted that they were gay. Here in America, there's that whole issue of religion and conservative issues. Self loathing because they think they are sinners, or that it's "wrong". And you also have homosexuals who lead double lives, are married men with children, who still have sex with men. There are others who think that they're not gay as long as they're on top, or as long as (as the joke goes) "the ********* don't touch". And you have those who are "Prison gay", as they aren't Gay but they do it out of "necessity" due to no access to women. Denial is an easy, easy thing. I also know several men who are "gay", not because they prefer men, but either 1) Because it's just easier to get sex from other men, or 2) they don't want to deal with the emotional baggage with women. One individual I know put it like this: "When I was seventeen, I was awakened by my girlfriend beating me over the head with a pillow. I asked her "What are you doing?!" and she explained that she had had a dream where I was cheating on her. So she wanted me to apologize for cheating on her in her dream. And she was serious. At that point, I swore off women completely." Reality Seekers. No, Reality Seekers are trumped up philosophers looking for "The one true form" or some other crap that it doesn't go into detail. Reality seekers, as presented by RoE, despise their ability to change shape. Or they don't look at it in a favorable fashion. Possibly a becomer. If under the right circumstance. POSSIBLY, under the right circumstances. But Becomers just don't make that much sense that way. The problem I have with RoE is that the three personality types are very limiting, not fleshed out, and they just don't make a lot of sense. Passers make sense because of the whole "It's just easier to find an identity this way". But Becomers and Reality seekers don't. The latter because they're all "seeking the one true form" which is so vague and unclear. Becomers don't make sense because the whole issue with changelings is Identity. Even if the Becomer has six different lives they're juggling, that doesn't answer the question of identity. People aren't just "the sum of their parts", physically or mentally, and it doesn't answer who the individual is at the end of the day. Sure, I can see some becoming becomers, but it's an overly Shallow personality. And one that would grow boring after a while. Not to mention that Becomers are just passers with multiple identities; they avoid the question of "Who Am I" by making up false identities. But then, I'm a grad student in psychology. I think about this a little bit too hard for my own good.