Post/Author/DateTime	Post
alder_zeal 06-14-07, 07:11 PM	Has anyone notice that that there is not a lot of technical material in the Eberron Supplements more fluff, on how the world operates. I think that Eberron came out late in 3ed life span and they do not want it to be technical to the point your book you bought a 7 months ago is worthless because 4th ed is out now. opps i said the taboo words. Form a company stand point any product with a WOTC label on it or offical D&D material i.e. KALAMAR liscences will be bought back so they can keep all Liscences in house and not share with competitors. They can also kepp it under tight wraps. 4ed is imminnet we just dont know when. As for Eberron the books with all fluf and not much technical support are great keep them coming. They are only WOTC products I will buy for now
Rechan 06-14-07, 07:40 PM	Whoo boy. Here we go.
Shady314 06-14-07, 07:45 PM	Perhaps we can try to head this off Rechan. I don't care WHY it may be so but I agree that fluff is much preferable to the crunch. The more fluff they'd like to put in over crunch to flesh out Eberron the better. EDIT: As Alex said. I too would not mind my splatbooks being only crunchy and setting books being fluffy goodness.
Alex_ 06-14-07, 07:47 PM	I personally don't like my fluff and crunch together. when I buy something like Complete Adventurer, I could care less about the flavor of the Ninja class. I want the abilities. I want the Feats, I want the Spells. I want the items. The flavor is going to change anyway whenever I put it into a campaign setting. When I buy an Eberron (or any setting book) book, I want to learn more about Eberron (or the setting). Sure I don't mind a new prestige class, feat or spell, but I'm more interested in learning about the world itself and how material from my crunchy books can fit into the fluff. When you have books that mix too much fluff and crunch (Oriental Adventures or Tome of Battle) you end up with fluff that is too vague and doesn't satisfy, but also holds back the crunch since players and DMs are less willing to apply it to other settings independently of the fluff. But that's me :P
Balseraph 06-14-07, 07:54 PM	Exactly! Also, with the design philosophy of "everything in D&D can have a place in Eberron"* I'm quite happy to have more setting fluff and less in the way of Eberron-specific crunchy rules stuff. We do need it for things that have not been expressed elsewhere, but mostly I'm content taking things from other crunchy rulebooks and slipping them in as needed to Eberron - with any and all alterations to make them fit my personal vision for my game. *Paraphrased, you all know what I mean though.
Rechan 06-14-07, 08:19 PM	Two things. 1) Eberron books are very good about tieing Eberron-specific crunch to Eberron. Case in point being the Impure Prince from Magic of Eberron. No other setting has the Daelkyr. Generic book crunch isn't as, well, engaging and flavorful. If you're not careful, it's just pouring a lot of crap into the melting pot (see PGtE and all its sidebars). 2) I just wonder what the numbers are for Fluff-based books vs. Crunch based books. Because I would expect WotC to print where the numbers are; if more people buy Eberron books that have crunch, then they'll put more crunch in. Or feel that they have to put in the crunch to sell the products. But then that might also be skewed, given how WotC has thusfar put out fluff books that are highly focused. Sarlona, Sharn, the Last War - if your campaigns aren't dealing with these areas, you're bot going to buy these books. Five Nations and PGtE are the only less-than-crunchy books that were non-site specific.
OnusBone 06-14-07, 09:07 PM	Without a doubt, the fluff is my favorite part of Eberron. This setting more than any other seems very fluff-driven. I really appreciate the more technical fluff, like demographics and city maps. I would love me some trade paper gazeteers on the nations of Khorvaire. Ya know, like a Talenta Plains or Q'barra focused supplement, 90 pages, w/ NPCs, cities (w/ some maps), points of interest, and local flavor. Maybe one or two PrCs'. Price point around 14.95... Crap, I just drooled on my keyboard. They could even spruce up the schizophrenic 5N info, add some more useful fluff, and I would at least buy Aundair and Breland. Okay, maybe Thrane, too. Although Karrnath is really cool...and can't forget The Mournland...
Alex_ 06-14-07, 09:11 PM	Two things. 1) Eberron books are very good about tieing Eberron-specific crunch to Eberron. Case in point being the Impure Prince from Magic of Eberron. No other setting has the Daelkyr. Again, I don't get upset when I open an Eberron book and see something like this, but I don't necessarily buy Eberron books for the latest Daelkyr prestige class. I buy Eberron books to learn more about the Daelkyr themselves. Unfortunately, if I liked the concept of the Impure Prince and wanted to bring it to Forgotten Realms, I would face more conflict because the DM would probably view it as Eberron specific. I faced a similar problem when I tried to go into the Vermin Keeper prestige class from the FR Underdark books- despite it being pretty much perfectly compatible with the Children of Winter Druid sect in Eberron. Generic book crunch isn't as, well, engaging and flavorful. If you're not careful, it's just pouring a lot of crap into the melting pot (see PGtE and all its sidebars). The flavor is largely what the setting books for. For example, Eberron was able to take the PHB classes, and describe how they would be in Eberron, which is in some ways different from how they are in Forgotten Realms, which is different from how they are in other settings. The PGtE sidebars were simply clumsily handled. For instance instead of a little sidebar that says, "How to put Samurai into Eberron", it could have simply discussed the Mror Holds, and their history of inter-clan warfare, and masterful crafting of weapons, and then, when describing a prominent PC simply put (samurai4/fighter2) and go on. The ECS using the Paladin class to represent a typical Deneith marshal did much to influence how I percieved the class without ever specifically stating "The Deneith Marshals are often Paladins". Instead of only dedicating information concerning Warlocks to a sidebar, it could have given a more detailed description of the carrion tribes, and how some of their chosen are corrupted with demon/devil blood or powers to the point where they can fire blasts of dark energy and other fel powers (essentially tying Warlocks into the setting). There wouldn't be so many threads asking how to fit the Tome of Battle classes into Eberron. If the Tome of Battle fluff hadn't been so specific and implied that such abilities were only found amongst specific monasteries or orders, integrating it into Eberron (or Forgotten Realms) would have been much easier for players and DMs. They could have treated it like a Fighter, Ranger, or other martial class with special abilities not specifically tied to any one culture or organization.
Rechan 06-14-07, 09:46 PM	The PGtE sidebars were simply clumsily handled. For instance instead of a little sidebar that says, "How to put Samurai into Eberron", it could have simply discussed the Mror Holds, and their history of inter-clan warfare, and masterful crafting of weapons, and then, when describing a prominent PC simply put (samurai4/fighter2) and go on. The ECS using the Paladin class to represent a typical Deneith marshal did much to influence how I percieved the class without ever specifically stating "The Deneith Marshals are often Paladins". Instead of only dedicating information concerning Warlocks to a sidebar, it could have given a more detailed description of the carrion tribes, and how some of their chosen are corrupted with demon/devil blood or powers to the point where they can fire blasts of dark energy and other fel powers (essentially tying Warlocks into the setting). The problem with that is that it doesn't serve the purpose that the audience is looking for. That's hiding Easter eggs in the book. Unless someone read every single page and had committed it to memory, when the guy at your table goes 'OH hey I want to play a warlock, where do those go", the DM is still going to not know. But if it's spelled out VERY SPECIFICALLY he can turn to that page. I agree that integration is important, but your way is just as bad as the other as it is not easy or quick. Versus having a sidebar in the Table of Contents that you can look the page number to the reference. The problem with the sidebars, I feel, is that they looked like they were done by an intern. There wasn't a lot of thought about it. And even without the sidebars, they put a lot of references to other books in the PGtE pages; races from various books are peppered throughout the pages, in the text itself. "Put Sandstorm races here!" "Here's how you can use another D&D book here!" And then you have those people who are upset that these books that they don't own and they think are stupid is being put in Eberron; it's CANON! It's not OPTIONAL anymore! Eberron has sold out! :( I think we would be better served if each book that came out for the general population had a single page per campaign setting that was added to the back for suggestions on how to integrate it into those settings, and have this written by a writer over those areas. I mean, would it have killed them to include a single Eberron Vestige in ToM? This way you don't need to buy a seperate book to get the official suggestions, it's right there in the book the crunch is in. As for ToB, I don't really see that as an issue. There's no problem droping This Monestary or That Monestary anywhere. And heck, one of the Disciplines is attributed to Hobgoblins in its make, so that's not a hard stretch. Alternatively, they could make Keith write more "Eberron Expanded" articles. ;)
Alex_ 06-14-07, 10:03 PM	The problem with that is that it doesn't serve the purpose that the audience is looking for. That's hiding Easter eggs in the book. Unless someone read every single page and had committed it to memory, when the guy at your table goes 'OH hey I want to play a warlock, where do those go", the DM is still going to not know. But if it's spelled out VERY SPECIFICALLY he can turn to that page. I was paraphrasing. What I meant is that not only should you explain where the class can be found, but also give examples of the class as they actually interact with the setting. We know according to the PGtE that some Dhkaani Goblin clans train individuals who have levels in Ninja, but who are they? What do they do? What is their significance to the setting? This can, and probably is different from how they're treated in Faerun. I agree that integration is important, but your way is just as bad as the other as it is not easy or quick. Versus having a sidebar in the Table of Contents that you can look the page number to the reference. There's also the index. As for ToB, I don't really see that as an issue. There's no problem droping This Monestary or That Monestary anywhere. And heck, one of the Disciplines is attributed to Hobgoblins in its make, so that's not a hard stretch. Not a "problem", but the fact that there have been a great many "How do I fit this into Eberron" threads concerning it, especially one where the OP specifically asked where the original monastery was in Khorvaire. The fact that one of the schools originated amongst Hobgoblins is more of a pleasant coincidence for Eberron, but in Faerun, where Hobgoblins don't have their own recognized state and are generally antagonistic towards everyone else, and unlikely to share their centuries old mystical fighting techniques, simply transplanting the fluff doesn't work out so well.
Rechan 06-14-07, 10:15 PM	I was paraphrasing. What I meant is that not only should you explain where the class can be found, but also give examples of the class as they actually interact with the setting. We know according to the PGtE that some Dhkaani Goblin clans train individuals who have levels in Ninja, but who are they? What do they do? What is their significance to the setting? This can, and probably is different from how they're treated in Faerun. Those are in the Dragonshard articles. WotC aren't going to re-print those because they're free, on the web. There's also the index. Aside from the ECS, are there any Eberron books with indexes?
alder_zeal 06-14-07, 10:16 PM	Very insightfull Rechan, I wonder now if a Deneith Marshall would be better represented by the Knight class, if the phbII would came out before it. I believe too many of the core supplement books don't do that much for The Realms or Eberron. I actually made the mistake buying Complete Champion, and it was totally Greyhawk. Now it sits there for the day I decide to try to convert things from Greyhawk to Eberron. Tome o Battle, and other books should at least include web articles if not 1 page each on how to fit it in X Setting Side Note: no other setting has Qouri too. I can't wait for a book about the Daelkyr, Lords of Dust, and other Evil little tidbits. Some other excellent books if they choose to do it would be Aerenal & Valenar From the jugle to the dessert. The kings of Old Gazateer The Goblinoid Empire. The Lhazzar Principalities to Zilargo: Nation rise to power. I Hope these topics and areas will make it to print.
Alex_ 06-14-07, 10:36 PM	Those are in the Dragonshard articles. WotC aren't going to re-print those because they're free, on the web. This I'm aware of, although a great many of their customers don't frequent the website or the boards. They will generally never see this information. I have no interest in discussing whether or not releasing information here or there would be more economically feasible. Wizards will do what they conclude allows them to make a profit and keep putting stuff out, and I'll buy what I want and not buy what I don'. I'm merely stating what I prefer, and that is that I like fluff in my Setting books more than crunch, which I prefer more in my "core" books, and how, this approach results in the optimum dissemination of information amongst the players and eases integration into games. Aside from the ECS, are there any Eberron books with indexes? Not that I'm aware of.
Nived 06-15-07, 01:33 AM	The Player's Guide to Eberron has an index Other than that no.
Arithian 06-15-07, 05:37 PM	Again, I don't get upset when I open an Eberron book and see something like this, but I don't necessarily buy Eberron books for the latest Daelkyr prestige class. I buy Eberron books to learn more about the Daelkyr themselves. The flavor is largely what the setting books for. For example, Eberron was able to take the PHB classes, and describe how they would be in Eberron, which is in some ways different from how they are in Forgotten Realms, which is different from how they are in other settings. Without a doubt, the fluff is my favorite part of Eberron. This setting more than any other seems very fluff-driven. I really appreciate the more technical fluff, like demographics and city maps. I would love me some trade paper gazeteers on the nations of Khorvaire. Ya know, like a Talenta Plains or Q'barra focused supplement, 90 pages, w/ NPCs, cities (w/ some maps), points of interest, and local flavor. Maybe one or two PrCs'. Price point around 14.95... Crap, I just drooled on my keyboard. They could even spruce up the schizophrenic 5N info, add some more useful fluff, and I would at least buy Aundair and Breland. Okay, maybe Thrane, too. Although Karrnath is really cool...and can't forget The Mournland... WE WANT FLUFF!!!! DO YOU HEAR US WIZARDS!!!! MORE FLUFF, MORE FLUFF....with a tiny winy bit of crunch but not too much...juuust enough to get the point across.... Got it...Good...:D
yrogerg 06-15-07, 06:14 PM	Aside from the ECS, are there any Eberron books with indexes? Wasn't there a supplimental index for S:CoT?
Osagasu 06-15-07, 07:59 PM	I think the reason there is more fluff than crunch in the Eberron and more recent books is that they're designing the non-setting (read: greyhawk, specifically the Complete series) books to be useful in all settings, as well as more than a few crunch entries telling where that particular bit of crunch could be used in a particular setting. In other words, they don't NEED to put a ton of crunch in the campaign supplements.
Rechan 06-15-07, 08:08 PM	Wasn't there a supplimental index for S:CoT? Keith wrote one himself and put it on his website.
The Livewire 06-15-07, 09:08 PM	I'll take the fluff myself. I agree with Alex, give me the complete X books with crunch (I don't mind the fluff in CC, just don't feel the urge to pick it up) I like a minimal amount of crunch in Eberron. I also don't mind having to 'file the serial numbers' off of one world or another. I played a Warforged Fighter/Shaper in Oerth, spent two skill points to speak common, and the backround was a suloise construct from before the invoked devistation, rendered inactive until he was found by adventurers. Minimal crunch will allow a DM to take what he wants from splatbook X and fit it in. As to the PG, it would have been nice if they'd changed the verbage from 'are found in' to 'can be found in'. make it an option, not a rule.
Rechan 06-15-07, 09:14 PM	I would also point out that the splatbooks need some level of fluff. Particularly with their PrCs. Some of the PrCs and such have such little explanation as to what their role is, it's like 'Just here, here are some rules and abilities and we just were rushed'.
Nevarre 06-16-07, 11:04 AM	One can never have enough fluff! :D
TiwazTyrsfist 06-16-07, 09:18 PM	I wouldn't call it fluff. I call it flavor. The hard fast, roll Nd20+X, rules are the vitamins and minerals. They make the game work. They have little or no flavor, and serve to keep the game alive so you can get some flavor. The so called 'fluff' is the flavor, the thing that makes the game worth consuming.
yrogerg 06-17-07, 10:43 AM	Frankly, though, I can create my own flavor, and do a great deal of the time. Presently, I'm working on a Frostfell campaign, and filling in the cultures and history of the region has been fairly effortless. What I look for in supplements, more than anything, is simply Stuff I Haven't Thought Of Yet. For me personally, this tends to push the balance more towards crunch, as it's a lot easier to point to a spell, prestige class, feat, or item and say, "I haven't thought of that, but it's cool and I can use it", but with fluff, any suggestions from books tend to be somewhat worked into my end-flavor, but never ported in their original form. Personally, my biggest challenge is writing crunch to fit fluff, not inventing fluff that I like. (Right now, I'm trying to re-write the Impure Prince to fit the Duegar better, and am, frankly, mystified) But, IMO, a good supplement should really try to have equal measures of both.
davethebrave371 06-18-07, 03:56 PM	When I buy an Eberron (or any setting book) book, I want to learn more about Eberron (or the setting). Sure I don't mind a new prestige class, feat or spell, but I'm more interested in learning about the world itself and how material from my crunchy books can fit into the fluff. QFT
sh0 06-18-07, 11:08 PM	QFT QFT again.