Post/Author/DateTime	Post
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-04-07, 08:02 AM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13980465#post13980465 Hey Eberron fans, I'm very pleased to be able to take a break from my work on the Player's Handbook to come on the boards today and tell you something I think you'll be happy to hear: We hear you. We've decided that the 4E Eberron Campaign Setting will not advance the timeline of the setting. The campaign starting year will still be 998YK, and we won't present major changes to the setting except as necessary to bring 4E elements into the world. It's my hope that we'll be able to sketch out possible directions that events might take, but do that in the same way we do in our 3E sourcebooks—as options, possibilities, suggestions you might want to incorporate into your game. That's how we'll sneak in some of the ideas we've been kicking around. Novels won't become canon. The world won't change according to the events of The Draconic Prophecies or any other novel. Your campaign will remain your campaign. Let me thank you all again for your love for Eberron and the passion you put into your games. As exasperated as I get sometimes, you folks are the reason I do and love my job. Keep playing!
Charles Phipps 10-04-07, 08:35 AM	NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Nived 10-04-07, 08:38 AM	As Aesop said 2,500 years ago. You can't please everyone, and if you try you'll lose your ass as part of the bargin. No really he said that... The Miller, His son, and their Ass. Good Fable. Let hope this doesn't stagnate the setting. Still mark me in the pleased column.
Charles Phipps 10-04-07, 08:47 AM	There's still plenty to document in the setting but eventually, it'll be pretty much covered. Ravenloft built up to the Time of Unparalleled Darkness before the publishers realized that fans actually wanted to know what happened. And were ****ed when they found out they never intended anything.
Amaril 10-04-07, 09:06 AM	In my short, recent years of playing Greyhawk, I was always fond of finding tons of older material from previous versions of D&D that allowed me to learn about the setting. At the same time, I was always frustrated by the fact that those resources were written in the context of a different time period prior to certain events occurring in an advanced time line that made those resources outdated. Additionally, many individuals disapprove of having to buy a chronological update to the world with which they are already familiar, and areas that have yet to be covered (e.g. - Planes of Eberron, other nations of Khorvaire, arctic/antarctic regions, etc.) still sit on the back burner. It's for this reason that I am restricting myself to two choices in regards to Eberron and 4e. Switch to 4e and drop Eberron Stick with 3e and Eberron In other words, I don't plan on playing 4e Eberron at all, but I do plan on buying 4e Eberron supplements that cover subject matter that I can use in my 3e Eberron campaign unless 4e proves to be such a great rule system that I decide to give up on 3e altogether. I don't want to deal with a setting that seems clunky because it was built on the assumptions of a previous edition (i.e. - common low-level spells, NPC classes, core races being the only true dragonmarked races, etc.) and doesn't quite fit the mechanics of a new edition (i.e. - new core races, new core classes, new wealth/treasure guidelines, etc). This happens with a lot of older settings such as FR and Greyhawk in which, for example, you have NPCs with levels in an inaccurate class because the class with which they were initially designed has long since been drastically altered or removed. Halflings are a good example of this. In older Greyhawk, halflings were very much like Tolkien's homebound hobbits whereas in 3e they are depicted as nomadic tribes that look similar to kender. I bought into Eberron expecting it to be a setting that didn't suffer from changes and revisions across game versions before the setting would be completely covered, and it is dangerously close to breaking that assumption. If that break occurs, I'll definitely be dropping the setting as a whole and making a setting of my own design.
Charles Phipps 10-04-07, 09:18 AM	I'm sorry your chief love of Eberron comes from the fact its static as a setting.
Amaril 10-04-07, 09:29 AM	I'm sorry your chief love of Eberron comes from the fact its static as a setting. I'm sorry you have such a strong inconsideration for what others might expect from Eberron. The material is static. My campaign is dynamic, and I don't want some other book telling me how my campaign is expected to change. If you want to advance your game, you do it your way, and I'll do it my way. Don't expect me or anyone else to be stuck with someone else's imposition of how my campaign is expected to advance. PS - I didn't say it was my chief love of Eberron, so don't put words in my mouth.
Charles Phipps 10-04-07, 09:36 AM	Dude, some coffee and take things less personally. You'll make more friends and your day will improve. You said that if Eberron became a non-static setting you'd drop it. To me, that says the chief appeal is stasis. For me, the fact is that I buy campaign material because I don't have Terry Goodkind's time to write out my own campaign world because I have to make a living and my players demand lots of details along with lots of adventures. Thus, I use a published setting. You know what helps in a published setting? *NEW EVENTS HAPPENING* Especially as my campaigns veer towards the political. Yes, I can make up my own events happening but it's easier when the campaign gives me ideas to help out. I, like any sensible DM, just discard which doesn't fit.
Arryn 10-04-07, 10:14 AM	I, like any sensible DM, just discard which doesn't fit. What is this 'sensible' you speak of? Obviously you aren't a REAL role-player, common sense is anathema to the rabid condemnation of anything new that is required of a REAL role-player. All sarcasm aside, I was actually looking forward to seeing how Eberron might change over the course of two years. I thought this would be a great barometer for people running games as to what can happen in a fluid world. It's funny how in a game based entirely on imagination how many people rebel against published changes. That being said, I think you and I are in the minority Charles. I admit that I haven't been following the... ahem... debate closely, but it seems like most of the people were against advancing the timeline. While I disagree with that point of view, I do applaud Wizards for actually listening to their fanbase and giving the majority what they want. When you think about it, it really is a win win situation: The static people get their campaign unchanged, and those of us with imaginations are still in possesion of our imaginations and can advance the timeline accordingly.
_Radagast_ 10-04-07, 10:50 AM	While I wasn't opposed to a timeline advancement, I am kind of relieved that they aren't doing it. Really, there's so much more to explore within the current time period of Eberron, I think advancing this early in Eberron's lifespan might have been too much. Really, what I'd like to see is more complete information on the setting. A lot of the 3ed Eberron books seem... a bit vague. I'd like tons more NPCs, plot hooks, and just details, details and more details about things. Let's use 4ed to flesh Eberron out to its fullest possible extent. Now, since there isn't going to be a timeline advancement, all those 3ed books aren't worthless, there's tons of stuff covered already, and this will allow WotC writers to EXPAND even more on what's already published. Five Nations? Sure. That's a book already, fine. But, for 4ed what about Breland: The Sourcebook. Cyre: Before and After the Mournland. I'd also like to see more sourcebooks like Sharn: CoT and the new Stormreach sourcebook. I mean, Sharn: CoT has been INVALUABLE to my campaign. Really. I've used it more than any other Eberron sourcebook. Why? The amount of detail put into that book. And the good news? I can still use all that fluff. :) And, then of course all the stuff that hasn't been covered...
Amaril 10-04-07, 10:54 AM	Dude, some coffee and take things less personally. Heh, this from the person who posted... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Additionally, I'm not taking this any more personally than you are. You said that if Eberron became a non-static setting you'd drop it. To me, that says the chief appeal is stasis.You misunderstand my reason for dropping it under such circumstances. The main reason isn't just for the sake of rejecting change; it's that I don't want to be excluded from future supplements that either assume the changes took place regardless of what has happened in my own world. I don't want new supplements to present redundant material that is simply adapting the setting to a new game system regardless of how minor it might be. I don't want WotC to publish new material that covers new topics such as the Planes of Eberron, Secrets of Khyber, Powers of Eberron, or whatever else with the assumption that the new changes have taken place. For example, what if the two-year advancement included a plane being coterminous for a fixed amount of time due to some shift in cosmology (thanks to the 4e cosmology), which accounts for tieflings populating the world more than prior to that event. Now Planes of Eberron would be written in a completely different context and incompatible with the 3e version of Eberron. All of the material that already exists is based on the current assumptions of the world. Once you advance the time line, it's only good for historical reference rather then the current state of the world, and WotC tries to sell all new material to update everyone's campaign despite whatever changes they already made. For me, the fact is that I buy campaign material because I don't have Terry Goodkind's time to write out my own campaign world because I have to make a living and my players demand lots of details along with lots of adventures. Thus, I use a published setting. You know what helps in a published setting? *NEW EVENTS HAPPENING* Especially as my campaigns veer towards the political. Yes, I can make up my own events happening but it's easier when the campaign gives me ideas to help out. I, like any sensible DM, just discard which doesn't fit.You don't need Terry Goodkind's time to write your own material. If you want your setting politics to result in a new war, that's not too difficult to pull off. Just say this nation angered that nation for doing that thing, and you're done. Additionally, your desire for change shouldn't inconvenience everyone else's bank accounts. I use published settings for the sake of having a foundation from which to build. I don't have a whole lot of time myself, which is why I also enjoy the static setting. Why should I have to waste my time trying to keep up with all the changes when I am able to use the setting as is. Advancing a setting only creates more work for me rather than allow me to use whatever I already know and understand of the setting.
DragoonDarkfire 10-04-07, 11:11 AM	Heh, this from the person who posted... Additionally, I'm not taking this any more personally than you are. That's not taking things personally. Just a hyperbole of how much he doesn't like this development. You misunderstand my reason for dropping it under such circumstances. The main reason isn't just for the sake of rejecting change; it's that I don't want to be excluded from future supplements that either assume the changes took place regardless of what has happened in my own world. Then you could always just ignore it or alter your current world enough so that the timeline and your world work well enough. A Drow invasion of Stormreach might seem like a huge event but if your PC's have never been to Stormreach then how hard is it for them to hear "Drow are invadeing Stormreach"? I don't want new supplements to present redundant material that is simply adapting the setting to a new game system regardless of how minor it might be. Did FR or any other changing setting show up irrelevant material in future books? I mean that new "History of the Realms" might have a lot in it but... I don't want WotC to publish new material that covers new topics such as the Planes of Eberron, Secrets of Khyber, Powers of Eberron, or whatever else with the assumption that the new changes have taken place. For example, what if the two-year advancement included a plane being coterminous for a fixed amount of time due to some shift in cosmology (thanks to the 4e cosmology), which accounts for tieflings populating the world more than prior to that event. Now Planes of Eberron would be written in a completely different context and incompatible with the 3e version of Eberron. Dont think it'd work like that. For starters Eberron didn't use Planescape planes so why would it's planes change just for Tieflings? You're confusion world shattering events and Metaplot with changing politics and less devistating but still interesting events. King Boranel dieing for example, while it could cause a split in Breland or leave it open for an evil new society to take over wouldn't really alter the books much. Only one that it WOULD alter would be Five Nations or other complete fluff books. All of the material that already exists is based on the current assumptions of the world. Once you advance the time line, it's only good for historical reference rather then the current state of the world, and WotC tries to sell all new material to update everyone's campaign despite whatever changes they already made. Well doesn't it just become historical reference when you yourself advance the timeline? Not to sound rude or anything but if you yourself advance your campaigns timeline by five years then what good is Five Nations then? Unless you don't change anything in which case the world just appears stagnant and strangely unchangeing unless it affects the PC's directly. You don't need Terry Goodkind's time to write your own material. If you want your setting politics to result in a new war, that's not too difficult to pull off. Just say this nation angered that nation for doing that thing, and you're done. Additionally, your desire for change shouldn't inconvenience everyone else's bank accounts. Is this all about you thinking Wizards is gonna sell new books to us? Cause frankly the fact that they were so willing to just let the two year timeskip stop shows that they just might not be doing all this to get money out of us. Frankly I think the only books that would have really changed are the purely fluff books so unless you're buying those left and right I don't think you should concern yourself with money that much. Hell you should be angered over the fact Wizards is makeing 4e at ALL if you're going by that logic. I use published settings for the sake of having a foundation from which to build. I don't have a whole lot of time myself, which is why I also enjoy the static setting. Why should I have to waste my time trying to keep up with all the changes when I am able to use the setting as is. Advancing a setting only creates more work for me rather than allow me to use whatever I already know and understand of the setting. When they introduce new material it becomes the new "present". Who's saying you need to keep up with every novel or sourcebook? The only advancement they were planning on was for two years and that was a few years after Eberron was even OUT. Are you suggesting it'd be that hard to keep up when the Timeline would only advance again by 5e?
Amaril 10-04-07, 11:25 AM	I could counter every point with my own opinions, but in the end they are just that. Instead, I'll leave the topic with this: Everytime I start a new Eberron campaign or plan to start an Eberron campaign, it always starts at 998YK with all of the base assumptions in the ECS, which my players also use when creating their characters. Everything that occurs in the other campaigns has no bearing on the new one. It's basically an instance of Eberron rather than a continual story. As such, one campaign might advance in one way, but I can always start a new campaign using the existing material in each of the books I already own, keeping all of them relevant to my campaign world.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 10-04-07, 11:28 AM	Hmmm... Mildly disappointing. I was looking forward to Boranel dying and Breland being throne into chaos (civil war?). However, this dispels the multitude of fears I had about the time line bump. This is kind of a neutral thing for me. They are erring on the side of caution, and I find that I'm OK with that.
Salla 10-04-07, 11:31 AM	Hmmm... Mildly disappointing. I was looking forward to Boranel dying and Breland being throne into chaos (civil war?). Go ahead and do it yourself, then. :) As a side note .... YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!
bhasu 10-04-07, 12:50 PM	In my campain he may or may not be dead already. My shifter hasn't heard yet, as she is on a diplomatic mission the keep the reaches from being invaded again. Whichever way this had turned out, it wouldn't have mattered to me. When it comes down to it, i am fairly sure that my campains (my own or ones i ran in) have never been absolutely cannon. Especially in the FR/SJ/PS where my namesake character lives. The campain timeline istelf won't advance, but in ours, it just turned YK 1000
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 10-04-07, 01:04 PM	I approve of two things: - Keeping the setting and the idea of a campaign setting governed by the DM intact. - Listening to the community. You can't always please everyone, but I think it's nice compromise they offer: OPTIONAL advancement.
Identitystolen 10-04-07, 01:07 PM	As I said in the other thread, I'm very happy about this as I won't have to retcon anything in my campaigns. I've got a player or two who are cannon zealots and any non-conformity to what is stated in the books in immediately wrong... I wasn't looking forward to that argument if those players are still playing when Eberron 4e is release.
PoeticJustice 10-04-07, 01:18 PM	This announcement makes me feel like Hiro in Times Square "YATTA!!" The first news piece on 4e I actually like, and to top it it's about Eberron. Thank you for coming to your sense, Mr. Wyatt.
Label 10-04-07, 02:27 PM	Excellent! I was afraid WoTC decided to railroad the DMs, especially in a setting where there is only suggestions and options. And on top of that, more suggestions and options are coming! yay!
LadyJorasco 10-04-07, 02:41 PM	NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!!
larry_the_titan 10-04-07, 03:17 PM	Duuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh
Kid SixXx 10-04-07, 05:11 PM	This could've gone either way & I'd have been happy. Still, I'd like to see some sort of tool like the Greyhawk Gazetteer that (as James says) offers suggestions & detailed speculation and not canon on topics like the political outlook for Eberron in the outyears from 998 YK. Otherwise Eberron becomes the Linus Van Pelt of the RPG world as the campaign stays the same age forever and ever. Still, we should count our blessings. Wyatt's announcement isn't going over well in our sister FR camp. I'd imagine that Edy will name his first born James now, regardless of whether it's a boy or a girl. :D
LadyJorasco 10-04-07, 05:29 PM	honestly i prefer Linus to DC comics which is what every other frackin campaign setting becomes when theres advancement
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-04-07, 05:53 PM	YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES!! QFT. You know what helps in a published setting? *NEW EVENTS HAPPENING* That has wrecked a lot of settings. Dark Sun, Dragonlance, FR... the latter two were popular (FR still is, actually, although the new changes look like they'll hurt the setting, except for the part where they kill Mystra).
LadyJorasco 10-04-07, 06:06 PM	That has wrecked a lot of settings. Dark Sun, Dragonlance, FR... the latter two were popular (FR still is, actually, although the new changes look like they'll hurt the setting, except for the part where they kill Mystra). very true. too me i think that DC comics is a good analogy with all its reboots and whatnot infinite this crisis that. i used that in another theard already but it sticks. i really like a response i saw in another thread wich basically said "if you want advancement every other setting has that so go play anything else in the world. we want eberron to stay unique and to stay EBERRON" but i would like to add to that that people can still play eberron and advance it...its called letting the players affect the world. my dm is very short on time and cant plan to much but when we do something that would affect the political structure of eberron he uses logic. you know "if this then this would happen and then......oh my you guys really did it this time!!" i dont think its partiuclarliy difficult to use our rational thought as human beings to extrapolaet results from an action. it defnately doesnt take any prep time since its an organic growth of ones own campagin that happens essentially on the spot.
Alex_ 10-04-07, 06:22 PM	Meh, a little 2 year jump to introduce some new factions/races/events to better incorporate 4E wouldn't have really hurt. Just because they move forward 2 years doesn't mean the face of modern Khorvaire/Eberron has to have drastically shifted. I don't think there were any pressing plots that couldn't have remained hidden and ongoing for 2 years or any important organizations that couldn't still exist. The history of Khorvaire's nations have spanned centuries, and even mellenia. The last war lasted a century. Over half the common races live twice as long as Humans. 2 years is but a blip in that context. I'm personally of he opinion that 2 years was too short between the Mourning and the current situation in Khorvaire. All my campaigns tend to take place in the year 1000 or beyond anyway.
Salla 10-04-07, 06:25 PM	Still, we should count our blessings. Wyatt's announcement isn't going over well in our sister FR camp. How so? Is it because a similar announcement was made about FR, or are they upset because Eberron isn't getting forced forward?
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-04-07, 06:51 PM	How so? Is it because a similar announcement was made about FR, or are they upset because Eberron isn't getting forced forward? Probably because they wish FR wasn't getting advanced (rather than actual Eberron hate; there is that, but it's moot). FR is getting advanced either ten years or a hundred years, depending on who you listen to. I think ten years is reasonable; that gives enough time to introduce new competent villains and kill Mystra (which would weaken her now-former Chosen). A hundred years is, IMO, too much. I like seeing uber-NPCs get weaker but lots of reasonably powerful human NPCs are going to die of old age.
Salla 10-04-07, 07:01 PM	FR is getting advanced either ten years or a hundred years, depending on who you listen to. I think ten years is reasonable; that gives enough time to introduce new competent villains and kill Mystra (which would weaken her now-former Chosen). A hundred years is, IMO, too much. I like seeing uber-NPCs get weaker but lots of reasonably powerful human NPCs are going to die of old age. Now, if they just kill off Drizzt, I might actually look at FR again. Then again, if they don't, I can. Again. :)
Rauric 10-04-07, 07:22 PM	As I said in the other thread, I'm very happy about this as I won't have to retcon anything in my campaigns. I've got a player or two who are cannon zealots and any non-conformity to what is stated in the books in immediately wrong... I wasn't looking forward to that argument if those players are still playing when Eberron 4e is release. Oi, I hate canon zealots. I was a FR canon freak for years. Now I am in my 30s and just want the game to be fun. I had one DM keep track of all our loot. When we got to a new city sometimes our currency wasn't correct "That may be 5 gold pieces in Cormyr good sir but this is Sembia. It is only worth 1 gold pc here." That is an extreme campaign elitist though. I think there are less Canon elitists in games than Non-elitists. Never trust these boards for what the average consumer is. Many Eberron fans I know could care less about the TLA and never frequesnt these boards.
Shady314 10-04-07, 08:20 PM	This is wonderful news.
Salla 10-04-07, 08:44 PM	This is wonderful news. Indeed. http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa279/LolaBonne/Asiancat-1.jpg
Charles Phipps 10-04-07, 08:46 PM	That has wrecked a lot of settings. Dark Sun, Dragonlance, FR... the latter two were popular (FR still is, actually, although the new changes look like they'll hurt the setting, except for the part where they kill Mystra). Dark Sun had it's premise wrecked but it probably sold more books as a novel series than it ever sold as a RPG setting. As for Dragonlance, multiply the first setting by x100. Frankly, the "Dragons of summer flame" business was designed by Weiss and Hickman to burn bridges so it's "wrecking" was quite deliberate. FR has kept itself going in large part BECAUSE of its events.
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-04-07, 08:51 PM	Now, if they just kill off Drizzt, I might actually look at FR again. Then again, if they don't, I can. Again. :) Drizzt doesn't really wreck the setting. He's uber, but he can't teleport or disintegrate entire islands. He can just duel high level fighters or kill thousands of 1st-level orc warriors. I think Eilistraee is a bigger problem. Drizzt is at least unique as a good-aligned drow adventurer (Drizzt-clones aside*). Eilistraee doesn't just cheapen that concept, she ruins it. * I recall one poster complaining that the flavor text for the (GH/FR) drow makes them inappropriate for a PC, and that players have to jump through hoops to get it to work. I say that's a good thing. Drow weren't ever intended to be a PC material. FR has kept itself going in large part BECAUSE of its events. The Time of Troubles was one of the biggest hated changes in FR (and DnD setting) history because it was such a huge change. 4e looks to be more of the same.
Charles Phipps 10-04-07, 08:52 PM	The Time of Troubles was one of the biggest hated changes in FR (and DnD setting) history because it was such a huge change. 4e looks to be more of the same. To Greenwood purists, yes. However, I was brought TO the Forgotten Realms because of the TOT. Frankly, I'm hardly alone in this regard. Not everyone worshiped at the altar of 1st Edition.
Salla 10-04-07, 09:08 PM	Drizzt doesn't really wreck the setting. He's uber, but he can't teleport or disintegrate entire islands. He can just duel high level fighters or kill thousands of 1st-level orc warriors. I know, I just hate the little flake. :)
Salla 10-04-07, 09:09 PM	To Greenwood purists, yes. However, I was brought TO the Forgotten Realms because of the TOT. Frankly, I'm hardly alone in this regard. Not everyone worshiped at the altar of 1st Edition. The fact that FR's novels are canonical and that the timeline advances (likely crushing DM plots in the process) is what drives me AWAY from FR (well, one thing). To-may-to, to-mah-to.
Charles Phipps 10-04-07, 09:20 PM	The fact that FR's novels are canonical and that the timeline advances (likely crushing DM plots in the process) is what drives me AWAY from FR (well, one thing). To-may-to, to-mah-to. The stupidest thing in Eberron, right now is their non-canonical novel process. Whoever thought that up is really insulting the readers. However, I can just declare them so in my games but it's still ridiculous. At least I know I can harvest them for ideas and hope someone realizes there's people who'd pay good money for a novel sourcebook down the line. I'm against badly written metaplot but a Setting exists to generate ideas, live, and grow. I was salivating at the prospect of a Dresden Files RPG. Then I found out they didn't intend to make any supplements for the game because they wanted to give players and DMs all they needed in one book. I literally threw it away. It had no value to me, whatsoever.
Label 10-04-07, 09:28 PM	The stupidest thing in Eberron, right now is their non-canonical novel process. I see novels as campaigns and adventures with the author has a DM, that just writes down all the stuff that happens in his game. The same way a bard would tell an epic story. The fact that they are not canon is for the same reason that YOUR campaigns are not canon either. They are stories, that happen in a fantasy world. Not the fantasy world as itself. In m opinion.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 10-04-07, 10:03 PM	Duuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh "Joe Loves Crappy Movies" reference?
Kid SixXx 10-04-07, 10:10 PM	The stupidest thing in Eberron, right now is their non-canonical novel process. Whoever thought that up is really insulting the readers. However, I can just declare them so in my games but it's still ridiculous. Oh, I don't know about that. I sorta like the idea that the heroes in your game, or in Keith's game (novels) aren't necessarily the heroes in my game, and so forth. The fact that there are so many identifiable iconics from novels running around the FR has led to the school of thought that the movers & shakers of noveldom are responsible for the true heroics of note (ie. the stuff that ends up as canon for sourcebooks) while the PC's who rightfully should be the premier heroes of the setting wind up as footnotes. I like Lei, Daine, Wren, Torin, Greddark and Irulan well enough but having them as "official" personalities has its benefits. And yeah, plenty of cash to be made on a "Hall of Heroes" splatbook full of statted out Eberron novel iconic characters. Probably because they wish FR wasn't getting advanced (rather than actual Eberron hate; there is that, but it's moot). Yep, the FR time advance plus the Spellplague metaplot added to our setting not being monkeyed with is a source of great wailing and gnashing of teeth. I think some FR folks are beginning to realize that Eberron's not going the way of the dodo quite yet.
Charles Phipps 10-04-07, 10:21 PM	I guess, part of my issue, is that I've never felt for a moment the kind of "Wand envy" that so many other player characters have with people like Elminster and the rest of the Justice League in Forgotten Realms. I've played M&M in the DC universe and Marvel comics without ever having to worry about how my player characters weren't able to save the universe because someone more powerful could. "Elminster and the Chosen are disabled by a terrifying Ice Demon. Lhao contacts you with a scroll that will teleport you to get the Maguffin and save the entire world." At 5th level, I had player characters swaggering about because they'd saved the world a few times. Their actual power level didn't matter so much.
_Radagast_ 10-04-07, 10:52 PM	I guess, part of my issue, is that I've never felt for a moment the kind of "Wand envy" that so many other player characters have with people like Elminster and the rest of the Justice League in Forgotten Realms. I've played M&M in the DC universe and Marvel comics without ever having to worry about how my player characters weren't able to save the universe because someone more powerful could. "Elminster and the Chosen are disabled by a terrifying Ice Demon. Lhao contacts you with a scroll that will teleport you to get the Maguffin and save the entire world." At 5th level, I had player characters swaggering about because they'd saved the world a few times. Their actual power level didn't matter so much. It's not that this isn't "possible", it's that a CORE element of Eberron is that there aren't high level NPC heroes. For the most part, the high level NPCs are villains that need to be stopped by the actual PCs. This is something that drew me into Eberron, and I'd hate to see changed.
Identitystolen 10-04-07, 11:17 PM	The stupidest thing in Eberron, right now is their non-canonical novel process. Whoever thought that up is really insulting the readers. I like you and all, but I really dis-agree with this. This is one of the main reason I chose Eberron over FR as I don't read the books and don't care to catch up with all the bloody canon (to the chagrin to aforementioned players.) Also, by this line of thought, would it not also be insulting to people who don't read the books to declare them canon? Some people don't like reading those sorts of books and don't feel its worth the time and money (unless you library carries them) to read the things. I would expand on this, but I'm afraid I can't at this hour without getting overly trollish. :(
Charles Phipps 10-04-07, 11:24 PM	Also, by this line of thought, would it not also be insulting to people who don't read the books to declare them canon? I don't see why. It's supplemental material. It's like saying Sarlona shouldn't have a book because that would be unfair to people who just bought the main book.
Toloran 10-04-07, 11:45 PM	I don't see why. It's supplemental material. It's like saying Sarlona shouldn't have a book because that would be unfair to people who just bought the main book. The issue isn't so much that novels shouldn't be cannon ever, it is that they shouldn't be cannon in eberron. Part of the reason I (and many others) like Eberron is that YOU the player are the hero. There aren't any super awesome characters around that will overshadow you or clean up your mess when there is a problem. Thats what eventually drove me away from Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms. Now, lets look at it the other way: From ther writers perspective. If novels aren't cannon, you don't have to worry about stepping on the toes of other authors in the setting because nothing you do will affect them. Similarly, if a group is making a source book for, say, Aerenal they don't have to go talk to the writers of all the Eberron novels to make sure they don't contridict eachother. This cuts down on the incidents of "Wait a sec, didn't the characters in Keiths last book blow up that town?" or "Didn't Jame's book say the leader was Mr. MacGruffen not Mr. Pandercake?"
Charles Phipps 10-04-07, 11:56 PM	The issue isn't so much that novels shouldn't be cannon ever, it is that they shouldn't be cannon in eberron. Part of the reason I (and many others) like Eberron is that YOU the player are the hero. There aren't any super awesome characters around that will overshadow you or clean up your mess when there is a problem. Thats what eventually drove me away from Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms. Like I said, I don't get that. In my realms, Elminster always plays the role of the Wise Old Sage to the players that are the heroes of the setting (and occasionally as obnoxious asshat). In Dragonlance, if you remove the *metaplot* of the War of the Lance then the setting becomes pretty damn stagnant anyway!
Toloran 10-05-07, 12:10 AM	Like I said, I don't get that. In my realms, Elminster always plays the role of the Wise Old Sage to the players that are the heroes of the setting (and occasionally as obnoxious asshat). In Dragonlance, if you remove the *metaplot* of the War of the Lance then the setting becomes pretty damn stagnant anyway! I totally agree since the novels are a part of that setting and have been from the get go. Eberron, on the other hand, was the opposite: It was built from the ground up as a separate entity from the novels. Changing that takes a way from what makes the setting special.
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 12:15 AM	Maybe, I don't think that Daine's adventures and so on make the PCs less special. Then again I can just imagine them whining they didn't save the world like Daine did.
TheKeyofE 10-05-07, 12:41 AM	You know why they AREN'T advancing the timeline? So Jaela will never be legal. Good job, guys.
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 12:49 AM	I wish Keith Baker could read the Forgotten Freedom's first page, just so he could be appalled at that joke.
davethebrave371 10-05-07, 01:26 AM	very true. too me i think that DC comics is a good analogy with all its reboots and whatnot infinite this crisis that. i used that in another theard already but it sticks. Uhh...you mean earlier in this thread? i really like a response i saw in another thread wich basically said "if you want advancement every other setting has that so go play anything else in the world. we want eberron to stay unique and to stay EBERRON" I think that was me, and I say muchos danke gozaimasu for liking my response if that's the case. but i would like to add to that that people can still play eberron and advance it...its called letting the players affect the world. my dm is very short on time and cant plan to much but when we do something that would affect the political structure of eberron he uses logic. you know "if this then this would happen and then......oh my you guys really did it this time!!" i dont think its partiuclarliy difficult to use our rational thought as human beings to extrapolaet results from an action. it defnately doesnt take any prep time since its an organic growth of ones own campagin that happens essentially on the spot. I totally agree Ms. Jorasco, and I have to say this is basically what I, as a DM, do.
davethebrave371 10-05-07, 01:38 AM	To Greenwood purists, yes. However, I was brought TO the Forgotten Realms because of the TOT. Frankly, I'm hardly alone in this regard. Not everyone worshiped at the altar of 1st Edition. It's not about "worshipping at the alter of 1st Edition" it's about enjoying the game as is. Of course, it's a moot point with FR because it's already "advanced" itself via woodchipper into a mangled bloody mess. But at the time, I know people who dropped FR because the ToT was officially what happened. In Eberron, if we don't like the Crimson Talisman, it doesn't exist. The stupidest thing in Eberron, right now is their non-canonical novel process. Whoever thought that up is really insulting the readers. However, I can just declare them so in my games but it's still ridiculous. Crimson Talisman. Need I say more? Yes, I do need to say more? Ok, the Lost Mark trilogy? I guess, part of my issue, is that I've never felt for a moment the kind of "Wand envy" that so many other player characters have with people like Elminster and the rest of the Justice League in Forgotten Realms. I've played M&M in the DC universe and Marvel comics without ever having to worry about how my player characters weren't able to save the universe because someone more powerful could. "Elminster and the Chosen are disabled by a terrifying Ice Demon. Lhao contacts you with a scroll that will teleport you to get the Maguffin and save the entire world." At 5th level, I had player characters swaggering about because they'd saved the world a few times. Their actual power level didn't matter so much. And those are different settings. They aren't Eberron. Eberron is, so far, the only setting that doesn't do those things. I wouldn't be playing it if I wanted to play something I knew would advance, because every other RPG on the market is out there for me. I don't see why. It's supplemental material. It's like saying Sarlona shouldn't have a book because that would be unfair to people who just bought the main book. No it's not. Sarlona doesn't have unique heroes going on an adventure that the players now are, by canon, not going to be a part of. Like the ToT. I've said it on other threads, but I have a friend who liked the ToT a lot...only he hated it wasn't his players. So he basically ran them through it, and Cyric and Midnight and that whole party never existed. In fact, different gods got replaced in the long run (Tyr doesn't exist in his FR game, as the party paladin was there for Tyr getting killed in a deific battle the party accidentally caused, and Tyr granted him his portfolio as he died). They're still playing the game, and had to convert it to 3e (and man was that a chore...I don't envy him that, since I have approx. zero time as a DM for prep). Of course, a lot of 3e stuff doesn't even apply for him, and the event to take it to 4e? It assumes both Cyric and Midnight existed, which they didn't in his game. So no, it's not the same as a supplement.
Salla 10-05-07, 03:00 AM	The stupidest thing in Eberron, right now is their non-canonical novel process. Whoever thought that up is really insulting the readers. However, I can just declare them so in my games but it's still ridiculous. No, that's good, because those of us who don't read them don't have to deal with that big missing chunk of information. Besides, it's the PC's story, not whoever's-in-the-latest-novel's. So, basically, I don't think novels should be considered game supplements.
Kreistor2 10-05-07, 03:01 AM	Excellent! No timeline advancement! *does happy dance* [Crowd boos him off stage...]
davethebrave371 10-05-07, 03:07 AM	Excellent! No timeline advancement! *does happy dance* [Crowd boos him off stage...] CROWD GOES WILD!!
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 05:55 AM	It's not about "worshipping at the alter of 1st Edition" it's about enjoying the game as is. Of course, it's a moot point with FR because it's already "advanced" itself via woodchipper into a mangled bloody mess. But at the time, I know people who dropped FR because the ToT was officially what happened. In Eberron, if we don't like the Crimson Talisman, it doesn't exist. Yes, because that's not an option with anything. If I wanted to have Aerenal replaced with Evermeet from Forgotten Realms, I could pretty much do a slap and paste without any undo problems so long as I informed my players otherwise. Or the Mournland could still be Cyre. DM's perogitive triumphs in FR as well. Crimson Talisman. Need I say more? Yes, I do need to say more? Ok, the Lost Mark trilogy? I had a problem with the Crimson Talisman before I realized the Emerald Claw really did have massive legions of the undead that they spent like cannon fodder (see Eyes of the Lich Queen). As for the Lost Mark trilogy, it'd be the most hilarious thing ever if she just turned out to be a Sorcerer with a Necromantic bent. :-) And those are different settings. They aren't Eberron. Eberron is, so far, the only setting that doesn't do those things. I wouldn't be playing it if I wanted to play something I knew would advance, because every other RPG on the market is out there for me. I play Eberron in SPITE of its lack of advancement. I like its themes, settings, politics, and ideals but the fact that its a dead setting hurts my enjoyment. Because I like to play long term games set across decades and more, it's going to become a true righteous pain the :censored: to deal with all the changes in every country as my player characters move forward. I don't like record keeping that much. Sarlona doesn't have unique heroes going on an adventure that the players now are, by canon, not going to be a part of. Like the ToT. I've said it on other threads, but I have a friend who liked the ToT a lot...only he hated it wasn't his players. So he basically ran them through it, and Cyric and Midnight and that whole party never existed. In fact, different gods got replaced in the long run (Tyr doesn't exist in his FR game, as the party paladin was there for Tyr getting killed in a deific battle the party accidentally caused, and Tyr granted him his portfolio as he died). They're still playing the game, and had to convert it to 3e (and man was that a chore...I don't envy him that, since I have approx. zero time as a DM for prep). Of course, a lot of 3e stuff doesn't even apply for him, and the event to take it to 4e? It assumes both Cyric and Midnight existed, which they didn't in his game. I wonder whose point will be helped by the fact that I've never run a Forgotten Realms campaign where the Time of Troubles wasn't drastically altered by the PCs. Your friend sounds like he's very good at customization, which I think is very important. So no, it's not the same as a supplement. I've had player characters meet the heroine of Eye of the Wolf along with Daine and company. I've used Construct. One of my player characters is currently romancing the Psi-Crystal heroine from The Dragon Below Trilogy. I got a lot of material on the treatment of Shifters from the Inquisitives. Adding it was no different from than using The Explorer's Handbook.
Shady314 10-05-07, 06:24 AM	Yes, because that's not an option with anything. If I wanted to have Aerenal replaced with Evermeet from Forgotten Realms, I could pretty much do a slap and paste without any undo problems so long as I informed my players otherwise. Or the Mournland could still be Cyre. DM's perogitive triumphs in FR as well. Great! because it still triumphs in Eberron and you can still do whatever you want. I play Eberron in SPITE of its lack of advancement. Then you can continue to do so. I like its themes, settings, politics, and ideals but the fact that its a dead setting hurts my enjoyment. Dead setting? You bring it to life every time you play. Nice attempt to color emotions/perceptions with word choice though. A dead setting is a setting no longer supported by supplemental material. DnD has those. Let's try not to confuse that with a "static" setting like Eberron. Vocabulary is important for clear communication. Because I like to play long term games set across decades and more, it's going to become a true righteous pain the :censored: to deal with all the changes in every country as my player characters move forward. I don't like record keeping that much. This argument has come up before and I truly do not understand. And I honestly have been trying to. How in the world was a 2 year TLA going to help anyone running a campaign like this? How does two years help your decade spanning campaign? Even if the stuff the developers came up with perfectly coincided with your campaign it only helps for the time you play on or around 1000YK. Once you get to 1010YK don't you just have the same problems as before? If you are so comfortable creating your own stuff why do you care if the setting advances. You've got everything you need (your brain) Unless the changes they introduced were perfectly timed and planned around your PCs and campaign how was a 2 year TLA not going to be left in the dust by you? Unless you were hoping the TLA led to further TLA's and metaplots which I still wouldn't understand since DMs like yourself should be the least reliant on supplemental material. Especially if your campaign is going to branch off so wildly from established lore it seems likely your campaign and the canon setting would merely grow further apart with every direction the developers take and you do not?! Right? I've had player characters meet the heroine of Eye of the Wolf along with Daine and company. I've used Construct. One of my player characters is currently romancing the Psi-Crystal heroine from The Dragon Below Trilogy. I got a lot of material on the treatment of Shifters from the Inquisitives. Adding it was no different from than using The Explorer's Handbook. There's a difference. One is optional. One is canon.
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 07:00 AM	Dead setting? You bring it to life every time you play. Nice attempt to color emotions/perceptions with word choice though. This isn't a Presidential Debate dude. The fact is that, eventually, we're going to have everything in Eberron detailed. Dead, Static, Not moving Timeland land, etc is it. I don't play Ravenloft or Birthright as much as I liked them because there's no more supplements coming out about them. How in the world was a 2 year TLA going to help anyone running a campaign like this? How does two years help your decade spanning campaign? Even if the stuff the developers came up with perfectly coincided with your campaign it only helps for the time you play on or around 1000YK. Once you get to 1010YK don't you just have the same problems as before? The old TSR method of dealing with this matter was the fact that 1 year= 1 year of game timeline passing. It'd be 1000 YK and soon to be 1001. The novels would frequently help the matter by filling in gaps along the edges of the storyline. If you are so comfortable creating your own stuff why do you care if the setting advances. You've got everything you need (your brain) It's a time and setting needs issue. I like adventure modules because while they're useless in their regular form (no one should ever play a module "out of the can" in my opinion), they're great for giving ideas for you to use. One major need I enjoy is flavor text and also how political situations develop and cease to develop around my player characters. Let's go with Forgotten Realms. If not for The Hunter's Blade trilogy, I never would have thought that the Silver Marchs were worth playing in. Nor would the storyline be interesting to me if not for the fact that there suddenly was a giant orc threat there. Unless the changes they introduced were perfectly timed and planned around your PCs and campaign how was a 2 year TLA not going to be left in the dust by you? You raise a very good point but oddly, I think you'd be pretty perplexed by my answer. I usually start my Forgotten Realms campaigns around Time of Troubles. That means I've got, what is it, two decades at this point to detail the adventures of my PCs. My last one ended just at the end of the Cormyr trilogy from 1359 to 1369 Forgotten Realms time. Honestly, I would have been giddily ectastic about Forge of War because of all the detail it presented if not for the fact that I prefer to present The Last War as pointless. But yes, plenty of good and yummy detail for my player characters to wade through and I make ample use of it for my Elves and Older characters. Unless you were hoping the TLA led to further TLA's and metaplots which I still wouldn't understand since DMs like yourself should be the least reliant on supplemental material. Especially if your campaign is going to branch off so wildly from established lore it seems likely your campaign and the canon setting would merely grow further apart with every direction the developers take and you do not?! Metaplot to me, lacks the instinctive revulsion that it does here on the board. Mostly, because it seems to me to be the springboard for chances for your PCs to be The Big HeroTM as it gives setting detail on Khorvaire or so on shaking events. Let's perform an exercise. Let's say the Timeline advances 2 years and throw some arbitrary Realms-esque storyline changes into it. The Death of King Kaius * King Kaius has been assassinated by parties unknown. * Karrnath has been plunged into Civil War. The Valenar are considering invading the storyline. All the reactions of the other nations to this storyline are covered in other books. There's RIPE and ample storytelling opportunity right there with probably player characters and NPCs detailed for taking advantage of however the PCs want to handle it. Will they support Warlord McNastyTM's claim to the throne or Princess Haydith HotnessTM? Will they decide "screw this" and decide to take the throne for themselves? There we go, instant campaign! Yes, it's possible your campaign might be adversely effected if King Kaius was your friend and mentorTM but you can fix that on your own or enjoy the benefit for pulling the rug out from under your PCsTM. You want to know what I'm currently playing? I'm playing Star Wars D6 when not playing Eberron with my first group. I'm starting at the Battle of Yavin and if I'm lucky, I'll end up at the end of the New Jedi Order. Two decades of "metaplot" in the backstory to take advantage of. The first campaign ended with the Battle of Hoth in the background and the next has taken our crew of losers to the Unknown Regions to fight the Yuuzhan Vong a decade and a half before they arrived from their galaxy. There's a difference. One is optional. One is canon. Knights of the Dinner Table by Kenzerco had an awesome solution for this in their comic strip and it fits how I view "canon" debates. Every Gamemaster's game is "canon" in the Infinite number of Prime Material Planes that exist in Garwheez World with all tournaments and official products taking place in Garwheez World Prime. I think of the same way with my setting. I might diverge from the "Real" Star Wars in my current campaign or I might not. However, that's not influencing the reality in my setting.
Shady314 10-05-07, 07:19 AM	This isn't a Presidential Debate dude. The fact is that, eventually, we're going to have everything in Eberron detailed. Dead, Static, Not moving Timeland land, etc is it. I don't play Ravenloft or Birthright as much as I liked them because there's no more supplements coming out about them. .... Ok you just proved my point with that last sentence. Dead= No more supplements. We're still getting Eberron supplements. Static is NOT dead. You act like Eberron is the only static RPG setting in existence. It's not. It is however the ONLY DND setting that's static. It's nice to have ONE for people that like that. The old TSR method of dealing with this matter was the fact that 1 year= 1 year of game timeline passing. It'd be 1000 YK and soon to be 1001. The novels would frequently help the matter by filling in gaps along the edges of the storyline. Oh yes if only we could go back to the good old days of TSR. :P If this is the sort of thing you like there are other settings for you. And I don't mean that in the "get out of here way" but if it is such a HUGE issue for you wouldn't other settings fit you better? It's a time and setting needs issue. I like adventure modules because while they're useless in their regular form (no one should ever play a module "out of the can" in my opinion), they're great for giving ideas for you to use. One major need I enjoy is flavor text and also how political situations develop and cease to develop around my player characters. Let's go with Forgotten Realms. If not for The Hunter's Blade trilogy, I never would have thought that the Silver Marchs were worth playing in. Nor would the storyline be interesting to me if not for the fact that there suddenly was a giant orc threat there. I don't know what this has to do with TLA's. You could only get story ideas from the Hunter's Blade if it's canon? You raise a very good point but oddly, I think you'd be pretty perplexed by my answer. I usually start my Forgotten Realms campaigns around Time of Troubles. That means I've got, what is it, two decades at this point to detail the adventures of my PCs. Ok actually this now makes a lot more sense to me! But still this only makes sense for FR. Unless you were hoping for a lot more advancement to follow, the two year jump really wasn't going to fill your need. Metaplot to me, lacks the instinctive revulsion that it does here on the board. Mostly, because it seems to me to be the springboard for chances for your PCs to be The Big HeroTM as it gives setting detail on Khorvaire or so on shaking events. I think plenty of other things give PCs a springboard without the bad taste left in my mouth. Let's perform an exercise. Let's say the Timeline advances 2 years and throw some arbitrary Realms-esque storyline changes into it. The Death of King Kaius * King Kaius has been assassinated by parties unknown. * Karrnath has been plunged into Civil War. The Valenar are considering invading the storyline. All the reactions of the other nations to this storyline are covered in other books. There's RIPE and ample storytelling opportunity right there with probably player characters and NPCs detailed for taking advantage of however the PCs want to handle it. Will they support Warlord McNastyTM's claim to the throne or Princess Haydith HotnessTM? Will they decide "screw this" and decide to take the throne for themselves? There we go, instant campaign! Oh my god! You're right! And you did it all without CANON TLAS! Huzzah! Yes, it's possible your campaign might be adversely effected if King Kaius was your friend and mentorTM but you can fix that on your own or enjoy the benefit for pulling the rug out from under your PCsTM. And if I wanted to do that I would simply DO that. I don't need a new setting book for it. You want to know what I'm currently playing? I'm playing Star Wars D6 when not playing Eberron with my first group. I'm starting at the Battle of Yavin and if I'm lucky, I'll end up at the end of the New Jedi Order. I'm currently playing N(ew)WOD! I love the lack of metaplot and TLA. :) They abandoned it after the O(ld)WOD. Because they realized it was terrible. Two decades of "metaplot" in the backstory to take advantage of. The first campaign ended with the Battle of Hoth in the background and the next has taken our crew of losers to the Unknown Regions to fight the Yuuzhan Vong a decade and a half before they arrived from their galaxy. Great but why does EVERY RPG setting have to follow this. You can't let ONE be static? Knights of the Dinner Table by Kenzerco had an awesome solution for this in their comic strip and it fits how I view "canon" debates. Every Gamemaster's game is "canon" in the Infinite number of Prime Material Planes that exist in Garwheez World with all tournaments and official products taking place in Garwheez World Prime. I think of the same way with my setting. I might diverge from the "Real" Star Wars in my current campaign or I might not. However, that's not influencing the reality in my setting. Then stop complaining about the people that DO feel affected by it. I've never been impressed by the "let's change the definition of canon" idea.
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 07:46 AM	... Ok you just proved my point with that last sentence. Dead= No more supplements. We're still getting Eberron supplements. Static is NOT dead. You act like Eberron is the only static RPG setting in existence. It's not. It is however the ONLY DND setting that's static. It's nice to have ONE for people that like that. Yeah? And? Oh yes if only we could go back to the good old days of TSR. If this is the sort of thing you like there are other settings for you TSR was a time littered with hundreds of supplements that didn't cost an arm and a leg. And I don't mean that in the "get out of here way" but if it is such a HUGE issue for you wouldn't other settings fit you better? I like Eberron's focus on intrigue and politics that isn't replicated in other settings. Frankly, I like everything in Eberron but the fact it's a setting frozen in ice. Other people may like that quality but it really bugs the Hell out of me. I don't know what this has to do with TLA's. You could only get story ideas from the Hunter's Blade if it's canon? It annoys me, quite a lot, that we'll never get canon stats for Daine and company actually. I'd very much like more information on most of the novels heroes, especially those from The Inquisitives or The Dragon Below trilogy. Ok actually this now makes a lot more sense to me! But still this only makes sense for FR. Unless you were hoping for a lot more advancement to follow, the two year jump really wasn't going to fill your need. It'll give me an additional two years of gametime to work with. Plus, I know if I take a break from Eberron, they'll be plenty to come back to. I think plenty of other things give PCs a springboard without the bad taste left in my mouth. As stated, I don't understand or appreciate people's loathing for metaplot. It seems like people's loathing for Brittney Spears. It's just "why do people even care" and something that's so 1990s. Oh my god! You're right! And you did it all without CANON TLAS! Huzzah! So, when do I get a refund of the time i spent writing it out that I could have been doing homework? Also, the 7 or so hours that I'll lose if I actually want to do the campaign and need details for it? And if I wanted to do that I would simply DO that. I don't need a new setting book for it. No, but it sure makes it a heck of a lot easier doesn't it? I'm currently playing N(ew)WOD! I love the lack of metaplot and TLA. They abandoned it after the O(ld)WOD. Because they realized it was terrible. You know, I've tried very hard to like The New World of Darkness but it is (literally) the most boring Horror World in the universe. Seriously, you should check out the huge number of people who left the game series because the new world lacked the metaplot. No Sabbat, no Camarilla, no Technocracy, no Apocalypse = Crap setting. Old Setting= Fight against Greater Monsters and Countless struggles between a variety of foes. New Setting= Sit around and whine about your last humanity. It's like the literal World's Greatest Rebuttal to the FR argument. Fans flew away en masse because they took away all the conflict that drove the setting worse than Troy Denning and the Prism Pentade ruined Dark Sun. Great but why does EVERY RPG setting have to follow this. You can't let ONE be static? Because I think it's a bad idea. I can only comment on my personal experience, other people clearly disagree. I like Eberron. I don't like the other settings as much but I think they royally dropped the ball on the Metaplot/Timeline progression issue. Plus, no one is giving me any damn good reason why this is better. Then stop complaining about the people that DO feel affected by it. I've never been impressed by the "let's change the definition of canon" idea. Okay, let me rephrase. People who say about "Oh but I can't defy canonnnn!" don't exactly fill me with much sympathy. My problem with lack of metaplot is based on a clear factor that it's a HUGE number of dropped plotlines. * When/How will Prince Oargev's Revolt turn out? * Will anyone ever discover Kaius' secret? * Will Aundair invade Thaliost or the Eldeen Reaches? * Will Lhesh Haruuc be assassinated or make a play to put down his dissenters? * Will Cardinal Kronzen betray Jaela? These plots won't attract attention until they come to a head and won't wait for PCs to have some free time, yet we know there's never going to be any detail about how they turn out. It's dropped details that will never be of any value to me except in the broadest sense. Worse, it's INFECTING the modules. This whole "and everyone ends up exactly where they started" is ruining the campaign books. Seriously; The Last War, Shadows of the Last War, Whispers of the Vampire's Blade, and Grasp of the Emerald Claw is a five module storyline where the PCs face villain after villain before getting the Maguffin. And what happens? Jack and Rabbit. It's like a giant :censored: you to player's efforts. It's this big statement "We're never going to make any module that allows you to impact Eberron in any significant manner." Merrix gets Xulo? Nothing happens. Merrix doesn't get it? Nothing happens. It's like the entire journey turned out to be for getting Merrix's mail. War of the Lance modules may be adaptations of books but the player characters were expected to SAVE THE WORLD. In Ravenloft, you had every module often end with a world shaking change or the possibility of killing a Dark Lord. Eberron should be the setting where PCS MAKE A DIFFERENCE yet all the material is saying they can't because all of the adventures, even when facing 5th to 10th level adventures, they never even remotely offer the possibility for changing the balanace of power. I'm not being unreasonable. I'm not asking for Die Vecna Die reshuffling of the cosmos or anything but I think the setting could benefit from... 1. Modules that actually develop the existing plotlines so player characters can impact them, instead of completely new plotlines that boil down to "You wander around the world and impact nothing." 2. Some supplements that give detail on NPCs from the books like the old Villain's Lorebook. 3. Maybe a book to hint at the possibilties to come and help develop the existing plotlines. There's something wrong with Eberron's mission statement when in FR you can rescue Waukeen while in Eberron you get schema that doesn't alter the power balance even between the 3 Cannith houses.
TheKeyofE 10-05-07, 09:28 AM	This thread is really starting to look like "Charles vs. Everyone Else." Is that really what we're trying to accomplish here?
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 09:52 AM	Well my opinion is clearly a minority here. I get that. there have been some truly awful metaplots out there. I, however, refuse to dignify the idea that its bad by itself.
Ashlock 10-05-07, 10:08 AM	Now, lets look at it the other way: From ther writers perspective. If novels aren't cannon, you don't have to worry about stepping on the toes of other authors in the setting because nothing you do will affect them. Oh, that's not necessarily true at all. The novels not being canon simply means that if something happens in a novel, you won't be reading about the events of that novel in a sourcebook. It's still the same world, but events might unfold a little differently in the sourcebooks than they might in the novels. More importantly, we aim to keep the novels consistant with each other. We actually want some events in our novels to impact the events or in other novels. I think you'll find there'll be more cross-novel references going forward.
Shady314 10-05-07, 11:08 AM	You know, I've tried very hard to like The New World of Darkness but it is (literally) the most boring Horror World in the universe. Seriously, you should check out the huge number of people who left the game series because the new world lacked the metaplot. :rolleyes: I have "checked" that out before. All I saw in reviews and talking to people was a lot of people that liked the metaplot whining about it ending. What do you want? The Masquerade was so rife with canon it was basically a novel and they went ahead and ended the series for you. Did you want it to go on forever? If you can't get into NWOD it's really your own fault. Or you just don't like horror. NWOD is all about being whatever the ST wants to turn it into. If you can't turn it into anything you like without the Camarilla and Sabat etc. then why not just put them in with the updated rules system which is where the real improvements lay especially with the way the Vampire, Mage, and Werewolf books can now actually interact with each other. Oh yeah all those masses of fans they drove away. :rolleyes: Must be why they are still in business releasing books every month. They must have just shot themselves in the foot all those years ago. No Sabbat, no Camarilla, no Technocracy, no Apocalypse = Crap setting. Nope. Just means a different setting. Don't fear the change. Old Setting= Fight against Greater Monsters and Countless struggles between a variety of foes. New Setting= Sit around and whine about your last humanity. :confused: Lost Humanity? Oh see I usually play mortals. You know humans. So yeah not a lot of whining about lost humanity. Not that I play any vampires as the angsty goth punk vampires of the Masquerade. It's like the literal World's Greatest Rebuttal to the FR argument. And the rebuttal worked. Fans flew away en masse because they took away all the conflict that drove the setting worse than Troy Denning and the Prism Pentade ruined Dark Sun. Saying it doesn't make it so. At the very least they have clearly made a whole lot of new fans or I don't know how they can still be in business. I can only comment on my personal experience, other people clearly disagree. I like Eberron. I don't like the other settings as much but I think they royally dropped the ball on the Metaplot/Timeline progression issue. Plus, no one is giving me any damn good reason why this is better. We gave plenty of reasons but you've rejected them by saying you LOVE metaplots. Except when you don't and then just ignore them. :rolleyes: Okay, let me rephrase. People who say about "Oh but I can't defy canonnnn!" don't exactly fill me with much sympathy. That's a wonderful strawman but no one has said it. My problem with lack of metaplot is based on a clear factor that it's a HUGE number of dropped plotlines. ? No it's a huge number of plotlines left to the DM and players. I don't give a rats ass what the developers are going to do with it. I care what I am going to do with it. RPG settings are NOT novels and should not be treated as such. * When/How will Prince Oargev's Revolt turn out? * Will anyone ever discover Kaius' secret? * Will Aundair invade Thaliost or the Eldeen Reaches? * Will Lhesh Haruuc be assassinated or make a play to put down his dissenters? * Will Cardinal Kronzen betray Jaela? That's up to you. These plots won't attract attention until they come to a head and won't wait for PCs to have some free time, They will if the DM wants them to. yet we know there's never going to be any detail about how they turn out. NOW you are getting it. Possibilities=Good. Worse, it's INFECTING the modules. This whole "and everyone ends up exactly where they started" is ruining the campaign books. Seriously; The Last War, Shadows of the Last War, Whispers of the Vampire's Blade, and Grasp of the Emerald Claw is a five module storyline where the PCs face villain after villain before getting the Maguffin. And what happens? Whatever you want. You just said earlier a module should NEVER be used straight out of the can. Now your mad how they end? Make up your mind. Eberron should be the setting where PCS MAKE A DIFFERENCE yet all the material is saying they can't because all of the adventures, even when facing 5th to 10th level adventures, they never even remotely offer the possibility for changing the balanace of power. That's funny because this is the argument NOT to have developers telling you what happened but to leave it open for DMs. I'm not being unreasonable. I'm not asking for Die Vecna Die reshuffling of the cosmos or anything but I think the setting could benefit from... 1. Modules that actually develop the existing plotlines so player characters can impact them, instead of completely new plotlines that boil down to "You wander around the world and impact nothing." Yet you already said you would NEVER use a module straight from the paper. It seems you are just shifting your argument to "win." 2. Some supplements that give detail on NPCs from the books like the old Villain's Lorebook. This does not require a TLA. 3. Maybe a book to hint at the possibilties to come and help develop the existing plotlines. Also doesn't require a canon TLA. I like your ideas. But none of them require a canon TLA nor a metaplot. There's something wrong with Eberron's mission statement when in FR you can rescue Waukeen while in Eberron you get schema that doesn't alter the power balance even between the 3 Cannith houses. Yes something must be terribly wrong with Eberron when even you STILL play it. Oh I am TERRIBLY curious to know though. What happens when you rescue Waukeen?
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 11:10 AM	Oh I am TERRIBLY curious to know though. What happens when you rescue Waukeen? Her church recovers, otherwise it completely dissolves and becomes part of Llirras.
Shady314 10-05-07, 11:12 AM	Her church recovers, otherwise it completely dissolves and becomes part of Llirras. Wow! I can see what you mean by those awesome radical changes adventure modules in FR introduce. I thought it would be something huge with the way you were hyping FR modules.
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 11:18 AM	Oh yeah all those masses of fans they drove away. Must be why they are still in business releasing books every month. They must have just shot themselves in the foot all those years ago. They have business but they lost a substantial amount. This is a fact. Not that I play any vampires as the angsty goth punk vampires of the Masquerade. It single handidly revived interest in RPGing. Saying it doesn't make it so. At the very least they have clearly made a whole lot of new fans or I don't know how they can still be in business. Being the world's largest independent RPG company sort of gives you room to lose a few fans. We gave plenty of reasons but you've rejected them by saying you LOVE metaplots. Except when you don't and then just ignore them. Your reasons consist of "I hate metaplots" not "why" I said, I love metaplots as a rule and when I don't like a specific one, I can reject it. That's not a bad argument. That's a wonderful strawman but no one has said it. It'd be a strawman if you had an argument. Thus far, all I get is "I dislike metaplot for unspecific reasons." NOW you are getting it. Possibilities=Good. Dropped plots=Bad. Whatever you want. You just said earlier a module should NEVER be used straight out of the can. Now your mad how they end? Make up your mind. I'm saying that they should reflect what they're supposed to mean in campaign. That's funny because this is the argument NOT to have developers telling you what happened but to leave it open for DMs. You just more or less agreed they're screwing up their mission statement here, right? You realize this. Yet you already said you would NEVER use a module straight from the paper. It seems you are just shifting your argument to "win." http://www.weeklyfilm.com/images/Moviepics/jules.gif ENGLISH, DO YOU SPEAK IT? :-) The fact I can adapt stuff doesn't mean that it shouldn't be well written in the first place. This does not require a TLA. The argument broadened to also include the canoninzation of novels, which would almost certainly move the timeline unless all of them took place in the same year even in a continuing series. Yes something must be terribly wrong with Eberron when even you STILL play it. To be honest, it's an awesome setting but the lack of advancement kills 25% of my interest.
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 11:20 AM	Wow! I can see what you mean by those awesome radical changes adventure modules in FR introduce. I thought it would be something huge with the way you were hyping FR modules. The death of an entire religion doesn't strike you as huge? It's the death of a DEITY man. It is a *HUGE* :censored: deal. It changes a vast segment of life for everyone in the Realms when the deity of commerce and wealth lives or dies at your hands. :rolleyes: What's next, pointing to the Planescape modules where you remove teleportation from Demons and Devils and go.... "Meh, it only affects Outsiders."
Shady314 10-05-07, 11:31 AM	The death of an entire religion doesn't strike you as huge? It's the death of a DEITY man. It is a *HUGE* :censored: deal. There's over 100 FR deities. One died? Who cares? It changes a vast segment of life for everyone in the Realms when the deity of commerce and wealth lives or dies at your hands. Yes for two seconds until one of the hundreds of other gods takes her portfolio. As you yourself just said. Llirras just subsumes her role. People are minorly inconvenienced. Excuse me while I swoon. What's next, pointing to the Planescape modules where you remove teleportation from Demons and Devils and go.... "Meh, it only affects Outsiders." ? Huh. Whatever. I'm done. The decision has been made. TLA is bad and won't happen for Eberron. I'm happy. You're not, that one setting won't be changing to better suit YOU. To quote you "that doesn't fill me with sympathy." I'm going to go now continuing to be filled with joy. TLAs suck! No TLAs WHOO!
Shady314 10-05-07, 11:32 AM	They have business but they lost a substantial amount. This is a fact. Ok show me.... .... Companies usually don't stick with policies that LOSE them money. If they feel so strongly that TLAs and Metaplots suck that they are willing to lose business? Then I love them even more.
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 12:00 PM	Ok show me.... .... Companies usually don't stick with policies that LOSE them money. If they feel so strongly that TLAs and Metaplots suck that they are willing to lose business? Then I love them even more. :confused: Actually, I've been noticing a lot of focus on transforming Belial's Brood into the Sabbat and the Seers of the Throne into a faux technocracy. I think its a little too late though. Seriously, why do people hate metaplot so much?
DragoonDarkfire 10-05-07, 12:14 PM	:confused: Actually, I've been noticing a lot of focus on transforming Belial's Brood into the Sabbat and the Seers of the Throne into a faux technocracy. I think its a little too late though. Seriously, why do people hate metaplot so much? Essentially the biggest reason I can see is that metaplots can step on each others toes, as well as the toes of novels. But if you want an idea on how to make metaplots work try this. Multiple Metaplots Essentially you go like this. All modules start out at 998 YK but each one goes off in a different branch. So when you start ONE adventure in Eberron that ends with a civil War in Aundair you can just get the NEXT module that goes from there and talks about hot to end that war or how to stop the villain behind it. Then there would be OTHER modules that start at the same time and pretend that those other modules never happened, essentially an alternate universe. That was we could all be happy no?
Edymnion 10-05-07, 12:59 PM	I find this to be exceedingly good news, actually. Most of what I'd say has already been said, so I'll just recap: Advancing the timeline is what turned Faerun from a fun setting into an overpowered high level nightmare, because they kept advancing the timeline to keep up with the books. Every time a new book came out, the main characters were higher in level, and more higher level threats were needed to combat them. Hence, the power level of the setting kept going up as it gained almost nothing but higher and higher level monsters, organizations, etc. The static timeline was (and is) one of my main draws to Eberron. It is the guarantee that my books will not be invalidated every time sales dip a little and they push the metaplot forwards to compensate. And yes, I truely believe that is what would have happened if this advancement had occurred. It would have been a testing ground, either the fanbase would reject it, and the setting would die, or the fanbase would accept it, and WotC would see that nobody really cared about not moving the timeline in the firstplace, and would find more and more reasons to do so, until it became common. Its the slippery slope. Why would this happen? Because its a quick and easy cop out. You've got A + B already in the books, so you just type a few dozen pages about what C is, throw in some new monsters, a couple feats, maybe a generic PrC or two, and you've got another $30 book that requires minimal creativity or investment. As for Charles' main problem, I think thats also his main solution. He says that moving the timeline ahead is a good thing, but then says he starts his games back decades in the past of the present setting. Eberron has tens of thousands of years of backstory that can be delved into for future books. The Last War (which we just got a book for), the golden era of Galifar, the founding of galifar, the colonization of Khovaire, the initial split in Sarlona, all the way back to the age of dragons and the age of demons. Don't advance the metaplot forwards, thats for the characters to do. Advance it BACKWARDS. Fill out more of the setting. We know next to nothing about most of Khovaire because so many books have instead focused on Sarlona or Xen'Drik or seemingly everything besides the actual default location of the setting. We could easily go for years just doing Sharn: City of Towers style books for the individual nations of Khovaire. And for the non-nation areas (like the marches, or the talenta plains). All without moving 1 second in either direction. Is there a case to be made for advancing the metaplot at some point in the future when there is literally nothing else left to discuss in the past or present? Sure. Are we anywhere *NEAR* that point yet? Hell no. We haven't even scratched the surface on the present yet, we've got one whole book that covers one aspect of the previous century, and *NOTHING* beyond the ECS itself about before that. Honestly, there are a handfull of things about Eberron that, if ever broken, means I'll drop the setting like a hot potato and just use my old books. Advancing the metaplot is one. Explaining the cause of the Mournland is one. Giving stats to the Mark of Death is kind of one (I wouldn't be against seeing it finally statted out in a mini-campaign setting like S:CoT thats set in the war between the elves and the dragons, where the mark would actually be in play and usable). So yes, I find this to be extremely good news. Eberron is the only thing that dragged me kicking and screaming into 3.5, and honestly, its the only prayer that WotC has got in getting me into 4e from what they've told us so far. When I heard that they were advancing the metaplot, I was ready to dump Eberron. They had broken what I consider to be one of the main core aspects of the setting, which just throws the door open to breaking the rest. It was officially the last straw, "modern" Eberron had lost it's appeal. I had no plans on buying any 4e Eberron books because not only would the rules not help me (I still have no plans to "upgrade"), but the fluff would be of no use to me either as it would all be tainted with the advancement, which I would have to sit down and remove from every single book I bought from then out. And when the first thing I have to do after buying a book is start marking stuff out just to make it usable is when I just stop buying those books. So, while the crunch of the new Eberron books will still be worthless to me, I can at least use the flavor and the background from them.Multiple Metaplots Essentially you go like this. All modules start out at 998 YK but each one goes off in a different branch. So when you start ONE adventure in Eberron that ends with a civil War in Aundair you can just get the NEXT module that goes from there and talks about hot to end that war or how to stop the villain behind it. Then there would be OTHER modules that start at the same time and pretend that those other modules never happened, essentially an alternate universe. That was we could all be happy no?You've just described the way things are now, a static metaplot. Advancing the metaplot means that one thing happens to *ALL* aspects of the setting as a default. If they advanced the metaplot and said that Kaius died and that Karnnath was in civil war, then every single game book published from then on would have to acknowledge that fact, and build off it. Its not something the setting can ignore, because that is the setting now. Anything that you can say "Oh, well this could happen, but it doesn't actually affect anything but itself" is not metaplot advancement. Its just plot advancement for that one game. A book of hypothetical futures could be fun, as long as they presented multiple contradictory futures. One where Kaius is exposed and killed in one chapter, one where he is exposed in a fight and becomes the vampire hero of the country for another. Where they cannot both be true. Maybe have a book called "The Next War" with 5+ main chapters, where each chapter is written with the assumption that the nation/region it details is the one to have started the next war. Each chapter would be completely independent from the others, and would each go in a different direction.
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 01:14 PM	Honestly, I wouldn't be so interested in an advancing plotline for Eberron were not for the issue of it being such a highly political campaign. Frankly, I tend to think that a campaign setting like Forgotten Realms is better suited to having no advances in the storyline if you absolutely have to have the setting not move forward. In Forgotten Realms, there's no real nations if you think about it. Waterdeep, Silverymoon, and so on are all City-states with Cormyr one of the few genuine countries in the land and none of them being really in any real need or desire to wage war on one another. The majority of conflicts are with ancient gods, cults, terrorists, and mercenaries. It, Dragonlance, and Greyhawk are places where you can really just have player characters wandering about when "Oh :censored:, the Serpent Men are rising!" Like Conan the Barbarian, living is a mythic experience enough. Eberron's relatively settled status results in a driving force being very much the nation states of Khorvaire. The Big Four and all the smaller satellite nations are constantly in a state of flux with stroke and counter stroke being between them. The campaign setting could really benefit from any smaller number of conflicts that could be detailed. It seems like a great game for running Axis and Aundair if you catch my drift. I don't think traditional games of "Find the Gemstone and fight Orcs while doing it" really cuts it in Eberron. Eberron is really the setting where you can run something like The Three Musketeers where Queen Aurala having sex with a Brelish Duke is going to be enough to topple the monarchy. Thus, at the very least you need a book of Eberron politics if you're not going to advance the timeline. To address my issue with Forge of War, I honestly love the book tremendously. I could do an entire Last War setting on it, except for the life of me, the Mourning is the worst possible way that it could have ended. Really, the player characters could retroactively add entire regions to their nation of choice or establish great kingdoms but the Mourning is this Deus Ex Machina that has no Known SourceTM and any known source I'd identify would cheapen the effect of it. Even if I were playing a World War 1 game with German players, I'd at least know the characters were defeated by men. Thus the Last War makes for fantastic flashbacks and retroactive games but I doubt I could ever make a campaign of it unless I was going to remove the Mourning or play it for black humor to some extent. I.e. This is a MAJOR deal and will determine the war. Thousands of men died today to acquire Cyrean property....etc etc.
Salla 10-05-07, 01:14 PM	Seriously, why do people hate metaplot so much? Because it restrains DM freedoms to do what he wishes with the setting. The PCs should drive the story and the timeline, not Author X.
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 01:18 PM	Because it restrains DM freedoms to do what he wishes with the setting. The PCs should drive the story and the timeline, not Author X. FYI- to clarify for me. Metaplots are setting changing events that are created for the express purposes of PCs to drive the storyline. Sadria of Tyr isn't metaplot. That's just background information changing because of the novels. The War of the Lance modules, The Grand Conjunction Ravenloft series, Dead Gods and the rest of Monte Cook's Planescape Trilogy, and the Gehenna/Apocalypse/Ascension "End Times" Super modules are metaplot. A metaplot is interactive background changes that the PCs are major parts of. We are talking about the same thing right? Metaplot is distinct from Novel Canonization and Advancement of the Time line. I'm in favor of all three though.
Edymnion 10-05-07, 01:20 PM	Thus the Last War makes for fantastic flashbacks and retroactive games but I doubt I could ever make a campaign of it unless I was going to remove the Mourning or play it for black humor to some extent. I.e. This is a MAJOR deal and will determine the war. Thousands of men died today to acquire Cyrean property....etc etc.And how is that any differant than say, Ravenloft, where its not a question of if you're going to die, but how?
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 01:30 PM	And how is that any differant than say, Ravenloft, where its not a question of if you're going to die, but how? You know, I never could get into Ravenloft as Call of Cthulhu. I always had player characters slaying Darklords in modules like Fevlovic's Cat or Bleak House. Call it my Hammer Horror background but the Goodguys always won in Ravenloft. It was just that evil never dies for long. So you could say, oddly, I never got into it the way I should have. Conversely, I could never imagine a uplifting Dark Sun campaign like Troy Denning wrote. It would always be about "humanity is :censored: and it's all about the money/women."
Toloran 10-05-07, 01:51 PM	FYI- to clarify for me. Metaplots are setting changing events that are created for the express purposes of PCs to drive the storyline. Sadria of Tyr isn't metaplot. That's just background information changing because of the novels. The War of the Lance modules, The Grand Conjunction Ravenloft series, Dead Gods and the rest of Monte Cook's Planescape Trilogy, and the Gehenna/Apocalypse/Ascension "End Times" Super modules are metaplot. A metaplot is interactive background changes that the PCs are major parts of. We are talking about the same thing right? Metaplot is distinct from Novel Canonization and Advancement of the Time line. I'm in favor of all three though. The problem is that many people have is that we have long running campaigns that are already at 1000yk+. If they do a time line advancement, its going to either A.) Force DMs to retcon a bunch of material in to the setting that they don't want to retcon or B.) Not use any new supplimental material since it reflects the new changes and my campaign doesn't. The first option isn't really one because it just makes more work for DMs (many of which are overworked as is). If they just add it all in with a "Yeah, it was always like that, You just didn't hear about it even though it was a giant war between dragons happened in the skies of khorvaire." It ruins the immersion of the setting. Even worse, the players are likely to go "Oh... so there are people doing stuff more awesome then what we were doing? Why weren't we involved with that?" Also, since this is going to go along with all the other 4e changes we'll have to retcon in, many DMs would like to limit all the retconing we will have to do. The second option is even worse in some ways. Say they finally make a "The Other Nations" book about Zilargo, Droam, Darguun, Q'barra, Mror Holds, etc. It is going to be a pain to use because we have to modify stuff in it so that it doesn't reflect the changes. If the changes in the setting are huge, that might be almost impossible. Here is my happy medium solution: Make a suppliment book called something along the lines of "Eberron: 1000yk" Which covers all the events of 998-1000yk along with all the standard new feats, prcs, items, plot hooks, etc (Kind of like "The Forge of War" book). The solution makes everyone happy: People who don't like the TLA just don't have to buy the book, People who want the TLA (*cough*Charles*cough* :P) can buy the book and use it, and Wizards is happy because they get to make an easy to make book to sell. This idea could also be continued in both directions as well: Make similar books for the Giants vs Quori war, the Xoriat invasion of Khorvaire, etc.
Nived 10-05-07, 03:04 PM	Charles the one thing I don't understand about your arguements is "Its a political setting therefore there must be metaplot!" I disagree to an extent. I agree that it is a political setting, not advancing the metaplot doesn't make it any less political. I'd argue that metaplot makes people less likely to get involved in politics. I mean "hey my party helped a smooth transition to a popular democracy in Breland" has less impact if the next book has Bornal die and the country fall into a civil war. Now every time we game we leave canon, events in my game aren't reflected in Edy's game, or Keistor's game... The difference is without a metaplot my story is just that, my story and the story of my players. But when Metaplot advanced my stories become 'invalid'. Because now officially 'that didn't happen'. The other way it never officially happens either, but I don't have to be told 'it didn't happen that way." I always felt metaplots discouraged political play because nothing you ever do in political arenas matters as soon as the next book is out.
davethebrave371 10-05-07, 03:21 PM	Well my opinion is clearly a minority here. I get that. there have been some truly awful metaplots out there. I, however, refuse to dignify the idea that its bad by itself. I don't disagree. It's not a bad idea at all, I just feel it's not a good idea for Eberron. To define terms though, I don't disagree with metaplot. Without metaplot, you'd be playing a game with mechanics and no story. There'd just be an artificer, a kalashtar, a warforged, a shifter and a changeling. PLAY BALL. What I disagree with is novels being canon and time line advancement. Before I go into why (as you, Charles, keep saying you don't know why), let me say I'm not saying your idea is bad by itself. By itself, novels being canon and TLAs are fine and dandy. But every setting ever has it already. I don't want Eberron to fall into that trap, because to me (and obviously not you) that ruins a setting. Always has, always will. Eventually you get a bad author, or the setting's supplements change hands utterly so that an entirely new staff is on board, and something major happens that can't be taken back that isn't in line with the setting. Now all future material assumes that X is there or Y is gone, which screws you if you have Z where X is, or have three players tied closely to Y. But I digress. Novels Being Canon: Bad authors. Already talked about it a bit up there. But it's not just bad authors. Having major events happen in novels (which you should have, for the reasons you specificed, i.e. getting ideas) shouldn't have a prerequisite of "your players didn't do it." Your argument against that thus far has been, "Well I'd just change it." which is exactly not having the novels as canon. In fact, this is our argument for not having them be canon. If they aren't canon, we can run our players through the whole thing as the actual heroes, or even alter it as much as we want, and it won't affect anything in future supplements (a la ToT vis a vis Cyric killing his ol' pal Midnight to make 4E happen). Your argument is our argument. If there are some things you wouldn't accept as canon anyway when running your players through events in novels, why make them canon? You're making what you want to be canon, canon. I do that too, and it works more effectively when the novels isn't considered to have happened in future supplements. Which leads me to TLA. Time Line Advancement: When you advance the time line, whether through supplements, novels or adventures, you have the X Y Z problem I gave above. PrCs built around X? You have Z there, and X doesn't exist! Y gone, and an event happens that assumes Y couldn't have stopped it because Y is gone? Well Y is there, which totally changes that particular TLA event! Now compare that with the reverse. You advance your game, and they release a new supplement. As of 998 (before you did your own TLAs), these things existed. Ergo, all of it is useful. Not just some things. Not just things which also fit with your epic big events and TLAs and player actions. Everything. I'd prefer having everything be useful to some things being useful. All of that being said, I 110% agree with what you said about adventures not being impactful. They should be, in the same way novels are. Not canon. As in, if your players finish the third module in a trilogy, something huge should happen. Your players actions, decisions and good or bad luck should determine a major thing. But it shouldn't be assumed to have happened one way or the other. For instance, the module where you rescue (or don't) Waukeen. All future supplements assume that Waukeen was rescued. This might have an impact if Graz'zt is only thwarted in some huge attempt at a material plane incursion if Waukeen directly intercedes (big ol' TLA) because every other deity has had some demonic blinders on via epic magic ritual thingamy that didn't work on Waukeen due to her extreme hate for him (this is just off the top here). And you say you could replace that with any other deity. Interestingly though, this TLA spurs on a huge increase of wealth across the realms, businesses popping up everywhere, and this leads to another TLA (maybe FR develops capitalism and industry, I don't know), which now doesn't apply because the wealth thing never really happened. Etc. However, that doesn't mean huge adventures should never happen. It should just mean that, since all of them happened after Zarantyr 1st, 998 YK, they aren't assumed to have happened as of the supplement. So if the supplement either kills Vol or has her expand her power exponentially and crush the Lhaazar Principalities, revealing herself as its new and terrible ruler...well, all future supplements will have new Vol worshipping PrCs, Feats, Spells, etc. despite the fact that Vol might have died, and would be really useful for games where the party fails. By the same token, new Lhaazar PrCs, Feats, Spells (not that you need any with Stormwrack around) could be released that would be less useful if Vol won, but still really relevant if she died. Again, I do agree adventures need to have impactful ends. Personally, I'm going to...well, I don't want to post it because my players are just now going through GotEC, but I'm making a big impact with the ending. Thing is, it's one of the things they suggest, so I don't see how you could say that adventure in particular doesn't have huge influences on the setting (possibly, anyway). But I agree there needs to be more For Duty and Deity scale adventures for Eberron. Just that they shouldn't be assumed to have happened like Shadows of the Last War was in MoE.
Altar_Boy 10-05-07, 10:49 PM	I play Eberron in SPITE of its lack of advancement. I like its themes, settings, politics, and ideals but the fact that its a dead setting hurts my enjoyment. Because I like to play long term games set across decades and more, it's going to become a true righteous pain the :censored: to deal with all the changes in every country as my player characters move forward. And...... how would an advancement of the timeline help that? Your PCs would still be doing their things, changing the world, PLUS the NPCs would be changing it as well. Thus, MORE notetaking. You know you can reset the Eberron world at any time, right?
Charles Phipps 10-05-07, 11:14 PM	I disagree to an extent. I agree that it is a political setting, not advancing the metaplot doesn't make it any less political. I'd argue that metaplot makes people less likely to get involved in politics. I mean "hey my party helped a smooth transition to a popular democracy in Breland" has less impact if the next book has Bornal die and the country fall into a civil war. Well it's one of those funny things where player characters and DMs have to acknowledge that you're never going to be able to fully reflect the setting of your world with that of Eberron canon. For example, I treat The Emerald Claw as essentially an independent Waffen-SS that's tremendously and virtulently racist. That's me modifying my campaign to make a character type more interesting. I also have filled in Q'Barra with my own stuff that I doubt will ever be reflected in the current canon. Thus, it doesn't matter whether it's set in 998 or not, the fact remains that it will be a book that doesn't reflect my living campaign. However, I'll definitely buy it because there's material to harvest. Having major events happen in novels (which you should have, for the reasons you specificed, i.e. getting ideas) shouldn't have a prerequisite of "your players didn't do it." I'm going to invoke the forbidden name of The Unspeakable OneTM in this conversation. Drizzt Do'Urden. As much as people think the Dark Elf was a pox on fantasy roleplaying games, I nevertheless recommend the books to every one of my players for an easy way to say.... "Hey, want to know how FR works? Read these works." That isn't effected by not making the novels canon but I don't think Eberron is hurt by having other people running around having some levels of adventures, so long as they're not essentially The Heroes. It also allows fans of the works to be happy when there's potential team ups (I only allow these at equivalent levels) Davethebrave371 makes a very good comment on my thoughts regarding adventures.
davethebrave371 10-05-07, 11:40 PM	I also have filled in Q'Barra with my own stuff that I doubt will ever be reflected in the current canon. Thus, it doesn't matter whether it's set in 998 or not, the fact remains that it will be a book that doesn't reflect my living campaign. However, I'll definitely buy it because there's material to harvest. Which is the case whether it's a TLA to 1000 YK with new Q'Barran conflict that contradicts your previous stuff or a new book on Q'Barra that contradicts your previous stuff. This is the difference: one assumes things which didn't happen and are thus absolutely useless. The other is telling you what was there before your events, and is thus useful. For example: A PrC for Cold Sun Lizardfolk and they got wiped out by the Blackscale in your game? That's ok, one of the few exiles who was out of the country at the time might have it. On the other hand, if the Cold Sun wipe out the Blackscales in the TLA, that's entirely the reverse of what you have in your game, and difficult to reconcile. I'm going to invoke the forbidden name of The Unspeakable OneTM in this conversation. Drizzt Do'Urden. As much as people think the Dark Elf was a pox on fantasy roleplaying games, I nevertheless recommend the books to every one of my players for an easy way to say.... "Hey, want to know how FR works? Read these works." That isn't effected by not making the novels canon but I don't think Eberron is hurt by having other people running around having some levels of adventures, so long as they're not essentially The Heroes. It also allows fans of the works to be happy when there's potential team ups (I only allow these at equivalent levels) Davethebrave371 makes a very good comment on my thoughts regarding adventures. Why thank you! Now as to your point, canon or not canon, you can have your players encounter and team up with Daine and Singe and (Host forbid) Vaddi. You as DM have choice in Eberron, officially. In FR, you don't. Not officially anyway. I like having my DM freedom endorsed by my setting, personally. I also like not having to endorse bad heroes (like Vaddi) if I don't want to. If Vaddi had become Eberron's Drizzt, and novels were canon...I shudder to think. Yes you can ignore all the events that Vaddi went through, but if he went through, say, the transition from 998 to 1000, and those novels had him at the forefront of those tumultous events (like, oh, I don't know, every FR event does), then a) your players aren't having an important place in the world and b) VADDI IS. But I agree about giving people novels to read, for sure. I always recommend DD and DB trilogies, and I have a feeling I'll be recommending the DP trilogy when it's finished. I just don't consider the events of them canon (in particular DP, as it has huge and far reaching implications).
Ogiwan 10-06-07, 02:27 PM	I'm happy that they're not advancing the setting, but if they did, i'd shrug and deal. I do kinda think that its too early in the setting's life to advance it; frankly, i think around 2012 would be a good time to advance it a year or two. Maybe.
Edymnion 10-06-07, 03:19 PM	I'm happy that they're not advancing the setting, but if they did, i'd shrug and deal. I do kinda think that its too early in the setting's life to advance it; frankly, i think around 2012 would be a good time to advance it a year or two. Maybe.Heh, just in time for 5e! ;)
davethebrave371 10-06-07, 03:49 PM	Heh, just in time for 5e! ;) No that'd be 4.5e. 5e won't be until 2016 if 3 to 4 is any indication.
Cifer 10-06-07, 05:17 PM	The Death of King Kaius * King Kaius has been assassinated by parties unknown. * Karrnath has been plunged into Civil War. That's cool, except for the fact that my campaign planned to have him trying to use the PCs as pawns against Vol... and that my campaign actually has already passed 1000 and is in 1004, meaning I'd either have to completely ignore the whole arc of him being dead (and decide for every single part of the new metaplot whether it would be altered if Kaius was still alive - which also includes telling your players which parts have changed in every detail) or retcon four years of the campaign. The thing with the novels not being canon IMO has a lot to do with the idea of Eberron: The PCs are the heroes, noone else is. Yet for a novel of a somewhat epic scape, you need heroes. The only way to have both is by saying they happen in different worlds.
PoeticJustice 10-06-07, 06:13 PM	Well my opinion is clearly a minority here. I get that. there have been some truly awful metaplots out there. I, however, refuse to dignify the idea that its bad by itself. You have a point. Metaplots are not all necessarily bad. However, there's no guarantee we'd be getting a good plot advancement. In fact, given the relative quality of supplemental information measured against ECS, I'd rather keep things as is instead of risk a damaging plot advancement. There's simply not enough gain in it. The setting is less than three years old and there's plenty of plot hooks between the setting book and the dozen or so supplements it produced to keep things going. By the way, If you do enjoy long term games, why not simply set your game at 900 YK instead of 998? Between ECS and Forge of War you've got all the metaplot you need for a century of game time.
Edymnion 10-06-07, 06:24 PM	No that'd be 4.5e. 5e won't be until 2016 if 3 to 4 is any indication.Depends on how you look at it. I'm looking at it as "3e lasted 2 years less than it was supposed to", so if we keep the theme going that WotC shaves 2 years off the editions, then 5e would be out in 5 years instead of 7.
davethebrave371 10-06-07, 06:26 PM	Depends on how you look at it. I'm looking at it as "3e lasted 2 years less than it was supposed to", so if we keep the theme going that WotC shaves 2 years off the editions, then 5e would be out in 5 years instead of 7. 6 instead of 8, actually. So then it'd be 2014.
Charles Phipps 10-06-07, 07:53 PM	That's cool, except for the fact that my campaign planned to have him trying to use the PCs as pawns against Vol... and that my campaign actually has already passed 1000 and is in 1004, meaning I'd either have to completely ignore the whole arc of him being dead (and decide for every single part of the new metaplot whether it would be altered if Kaius was still alive - which also includes telling your players which parts have changed in every detail) or retcon four years of the campaign. Dude, my main response is what's the problem with your players understanding that events are slightly different from canon? Ed Greenwood of Forgotten Realms is still playing in a setting without the Time of Troubles and that's a pretty damn huge change. But yeah, Eberron actually already has metaplot, it's just the fact that it was done entirely in modules and was relatively low key. The Schema Quest is pretty much the embodiment of a metaplot with the background struggle of Merrix D'Cannith against his rivals coating the entire thing. I think the difference is the Shadow of the Last War series of adventures seems to have no real innate effect if the PCs suceed or fail in the storyline. Whether Xulo ends up in Merrix D'Cannith's hands or not doesn't necessarilly have much of an impact on the power structure of Eberron. Eyes of the Lich Queen, likewise have the player characters chasing after a super-weapon. The question of what exactly happens with said superweapon in the Dragon's Eye if it falls into the Hands of Erandis D'Vol is never resolved because the book doesn't give any hints of changes if the players fail or suceed. The thing with the novels not being canon IMO has a lot to do with the idea of Eberron: The PCs are the heroes, noone else is. Yet for a novel of a somewhat epic scape, you need heroes. The only way to have both is by saying they happen in different worlds. That's an interesting point there, but Eberron is filled with characters whom nevertheless are heroic. Even excluding the Novels and Comic books as non-canon (and I feel like we're reaching the point where Eberron main is ceasing to be the real Eberron since so much flavor comes from other sources---what would happen with a Eberron anime or something similiar?), there's more agencies in Eberron devoted to preserving the public good than there are in FR. We've got quite a substantive collection of Kalashtar Heroes of Light (the entire race is goody goody), canon NPC paladins, Secret Agencies, and an entire religion devoted to fighting Evil in the Church of the Emerald Flame with hordes of Silver Exorcists etc. There ARE fights against evil going on in Eberron that the PCs are not a part of. You have a point. Metaplots are not all necessarily bad. However, there's no guarantee we'd be getting a good plot advancement. In fact, given the relative quality of supplemental information measured against ECS, I'd rather keep things as is instead of risk a damaging plot advancement. I don't think that we should, under any circumstances, expect bad writing from our publishers. I understand your argument (and Richard Baker's line of thought) that Eberron is too young a setting to skip forward though. By the way, If you do enjoy long term games, why not simply set your game at 900 YK instead of 998? Between ECS and Forge of War you've got all the metaplot you need for a century of game time. Honestly, I think the Last War ruins that. It's a conflict that realistically coats absolutely everything and everyone in the storyline. Barring the player characters are all deserters or rogues, it's like adventuring in the 1940s without being involved in World War 2. Yet, The Last War itself is pointless. It's a wonderful background element that you have the greatest soldiers in the world from this period who devoted their lives to the War but no one is quite sure what the hell it accomplished.
PoeticJustice 10-06-07, 10:53 PM	Dude, my main response is what's the problem with your players understanding that events are slightly different from canon? Ed Greenwood of Forgotten Realms is still playing in a setting without the Time of Troubles and that's a pretty damn huge change. But yeah, Eberron actually already has metaplot, it's just the fact that it was done entirely in modules and was relatively low key. The Schema Quest is pretty much the embodiment of a metaplot with the background struggle of Merrix D'Cannith against his rivals coating the entire thing. I don't think anybody here, except yourself, thinks of metaplot that way. Metaplot, in my mind, works on a bigger scale than what you provide as an example. Sure, there are consequences for failure, but, like in any module, they are primarily determined by individual DM'ing, not some publisher's agenda. That's an interesting point there, but Eberron is filled with characters whom nevertheless are heroic. Even excluding the Novels and Comic books as non-canon (and I feel like we're reaching the point where Eberron main is ceasing to be the real Eberron since so much flavor comes from other sources---what would happen with a Eberron anime or something similiar?), there's more agencies in Eberron devoted to preserving the public good than there are in FR. ...yet we endure the seasonal "Harpers of Eberron?" thread? More, maybe, but none very effective. They're designed to have everything but manpower. In any case, why does it matter if somebody else is out there fighting Vol too? Nobody's going to purposefully limit their rogues gallery by letting NPCs hog the action. I'd feel cheated as a player if my DM had NPCs kill the queen of the dead whether or not it was an official timeline advancement. Honestly, I think the Last War ruins that. It's a conflict that realistically coats absolutely everything and everyone in the storyline. Barring the player characters are all deserters or rogues, it's like adventuring in the 1940s without being involved in World War 2. Yet, The Last War itself is pointless. It's a wonderful background element that you have the greatest soldiers in the world from this period who devoted their lives to the War but no one is quite sure what the hell it accomplished. That's only if you stick to the published canon regarding where and how the war plays out. Charles, why wouldn't you be willing to break from the established metaplot regarding the last war when you insist it would be easy for us, those who wish for no timeline advancement, to do so when 4e rolls around? It seems like it shouldn't be any harder than ignoring the official events of 998-1000 YK.
Charles Phipps 10-06-07, 10:59 PM	...yet we endure the seasonal "Harpers of Eberron?" thread? More, maybe, but none very effective. They're designed to have everything but manpower. In any case, why does it matter if somebody else is out there fighting Vol too? Nobody's going to purposefully limit their rogues gallery by letting NPCs hog the action. I'd feel cheated as a player if my DM had NPCs kill the queen of the dead whether or not it was an official timeline advancement. Who allows that in any other setting? That's only if you stick to the published canon regarding where and how the war plays out. Charles, why wouldn't you be willing to break from the established metaplot regarding the last war when you insist it would be easy for us, those who wish for no timeline advancement, to do so when 4e rolls around? It seems like it shouldn't be any harder than ignoring the official events of 998-1000 YK. Well, how the Last War ends is such a gigantic thing that if you change it then you're not really playing Eberron. Everything in the modern setting is utterly changed by the acts of how it settles down. I guess I feel uncomfortable with the idea.
davethebrave371 10-06-07, 11:11 PM	Who allows that in any other setting? Anyone who allowed Cyric, Midnight, Kelemvor and Adon to exist. Well, how the Last War ends is such a gigantic thing that if you change it then you're not really playing Eberron. Everything in the modern setting is utterly changed by the acts of how it settles down. I guess I feel uncomfortable with the idea. I have to say I feel you there. It's the same as if someone did a TLA that had a big impact, and then I was trying to play a 998 game with the knowledge that I'd be utterly changing the way Eberron is played by having them affect the big TLA.
Charles Phipps 10-06-07, 11:32 PM	Meh, I think there's a difference but I may just be unnecessarilly biased against the Last War being changed because for me, the whole point is that probably a million or so dead was for no reason. Different strokes I suppose.
davethebrave371 10-06-07, 11:36 PM	And I respect that you stroke differently.
Kith-Kanan 10-07-07, 02:02 AM	I’m another who prefers the lack of canon metaplot development for the core ECS What I would prefer is a book that’s filled with an x number of interesting non-canon metaplots that DM’s could mine for their own story ideas. It’s not always easy to guess how events will impact on the rest of Khorvaire (or Eberron) but authors, who often have a firmer grasp of all the political considerations, could spell their ideas about these out, perhaps reducing the leg work of time poor DMs. And even if DM’s choose not to use a particular metaplot whole cloth, it would give them insights into how different groups might respond to certain situations, which they could apply to their own particular games. So while I don’t mind the idea and creativity of a metaplot, I don’t want to be restricted to just one.
Charles Phipps 10-07-07, 02:15 AM	So, anyone but me like Metaplot?
PoeticJustice 10-07-07, 11:09 AM	Who allows that in any other setting? Nobody. I was merely trying to say that one of the first moves a novice makes is to look for a high-powered good organization and, failing to find one, comes here and asks. It defeats your point that there a Kalashtar crusade squads or whatever running around defeating bad guys. There are, but not enough to take attention from PC activity. Well, how the Last War ends is such a gigantic thing that if you change it then you're not really playing Eberron. Everything in the modern setting is utterly changed by the acts of how it settles down. I guess I feel uncomfortable with the idea. Correct me if I'm wrong, Charles, but weren't you the one who put Spelljammers on Eberron? Am I mistaking you with somebody else? Anyway, the position you describe is the exact one anyone who resists a timeline advancement will find themselves in when it finally does happen. Take your King Kaius example. What if I'm Dm'ing a campaign that figures him as a major villain? What if the game time has progressed into 1000 YK and beyond, well after Kaius has officially been deposed? What if further material builds off the political turmoil, furthering my isolation from canon? From your own reaction, I know you can appreciate the difficulty this presents. That, in a nutshell, is why I, and I suspect why many others, don't like the idea of a timeline advancement.
Edymnion 10-07-07, 12:33 PM	So, anyone but me like Metaplot?Not me. Making plot is the DM's job, not the game's. The entire point of a campaign setting is to give you the setting. It sets everything up for you, and goes "Okay, now go make it happen". When the setting starts telling you how your game unfolds, then something is wrong. Anyway, Charles, how can you really be for metaplot advancement when you keep saying that you basically houserule the advancement back out of your games?
Ogiwan 10-07-07, 01:57 PM	Take your King Kaius example. What if I'm Dm'ing a campaign that figures him as a major villain? What if the game time has progressed into 1000 YK and beyond, well after Kaius has officially been deposed? What if further material builds off the political turmoil, furthering my isolation from canon? From your own reaction, I know you can appreciate the difficulty this presents. That, in a nutshell, is why I, and I suspect why many others, don't like the idea of a timeline advancement. Actually, when I was running my Swashbuckling campaign, my choices were to either begin the game in the "past", where the timeline started (and had good plot hooks for my campaign start), or to do it at the end of the current timeline, where there weren't as many plot hooks. I chose to do it in the past, and ran the risk of the PCs knowing what events would transpire (and ruin the fun). Wasn't a very tasty choice.
Charles Phipps 10-07-07, 04:19 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong, Charles, but weren't you the one who put Spelljammers on Eberron? Am I mistaking you with somebody else? I love how people harp on me for this when the Daelkyr already confirmably destroyed other planets. I was adapting H.G. Wells classic War of the Worlds and if I'd used an other dimensional Githyanki invasion, I bet I wouldn't have caught a tenth of the Flack. Of course, I really only used the idea of spell traveling ships. I never cared for the The Phlogiston and it wasn't like interstellar trade was opening up.
Salathiel 10-07-07, 05:33 PM	So, anyone but me like Metaplot? I can't really say I like it, myself. Then again, I'm biased. My favorite RPG is a certain Swashbuckling/high Adventure setting from another publisher that gets mentioned occasionally on these boards. It went through a long series brand managers, time line advancements and metaplot progressions, and I feel the end results of all of the publisher-inflicted metaplot is unplayable. The original setting -- as presented in its core PHB -- was a substantially more fun place for me to play than the world that came later. I mention all of this because I want to be clear, Charles. I am openly stating that my opinions about 'metaplot advancement' are subjective, partial, and completely based on facts and reasons that have nothing to do with Eberron itself. Based solely upon my experience with metaplot in other settings, I am now extremely leery about what the possible results will be whenever a publisher talks about advancing a time line like this. I suspect that many of the other people who disagree with you about metaplot had their opinions shaped in much the same way. -Sal.
PoeticJustice 10-07-07, 05:33 PM	Actually, when I was running my Swashbuckling campaign, my choices were to either begin the game in the "past", where the timeline started (and had good plot hooks for my campaign start), or to do it at the end of the current timeline, where there weren't as many plot hooks. I chose to do it in the past, and ran the risk of the PCs knowing what events would transpire (and ruin the fun). Wasn't a very tasty choice. As a DM, I can appreciate the unique difficulty of that campaign's situation. But surely a little bit of metagaming on the part of the players doesn't ruin the entire concept of playing in the past. Even if your players know how everything ends up, they don't know how events shaped that outcome nor how permissive you're being with the timeline. If you make them feel like an active participant in history then they can't metagame Kaius as a vampire because, for all they know, they already averted that event or maybe even caused it. Besides, there's no guarantee that a timeline advancement would actually help any campaigns get started. Only that things would change and inevitably some people will get left behind to the benefit of others.
PoeticJustice 10-07-07, 05:48 PM	I love how people harp on me for this when the Daelkyr already confirmably destroyed other planets. I was adapting H.G. Wells classic War of the Worlds and if I'd used an other dimensional Githyanki invasion, I bet I wouldn't have caught a tenth of the Flack. Of course, I really only used the idea of spell traveling ships. I never cared for the The Phlogiston and it wasn't like interstellar trade was opening up. I must be thinking of someone else, though. I distinctly remember Illithid moon-bases or something. It is ironic that you're comfortable with Spelljammers on Eberron but not a -for now, anyway- static time frame, anyway. I've heard you promote various other Eberron conversions -anime,video games, etc.- and also inclusion of unusual source material (e.g. Spelljammers) and I don't think I've ever once agreed with you on anything, but I respect your enthusiasm for gaming. I still think you're wrong though. A static time frame is best for Eberron because it reinforces that PC activity molds the world, not corporate edict. Novels shouldn't be canon for the same reason. People in favor of timeline advancement say that any disagreeable material can be disregarded and they're right, but it sacrifices part of the setting that a lot of people hold dear and sets an awful tone for future products.
Charles Phipps 10-07-07, 06:34 PM	The only time I ever used Spelljammers was an attack by a bunch of Beholders that the PCs blew up Dirty Dozen style. It was ridiculous and over the top but it was an homage to Doctor Who and Independence Day in one. The whole idea being to show off Eberron was a place where different kinds of adventures could be done. I have, however, had Merrix D'Cannith build a secret Moon base on one of Eberron's Thirteen though. It was a nod towards the Red Skull in the Avengers Arcade game. I, actually, am a bit embarrassed by them now but it was fun. In any case, I just recall Ravenloft's timeline. I read it for the 2nd edition of the campaign setting and it was like "Wow, Ravenloft was shaped by *MY* PCs."
Rechan 10-07-07, 09:48 PM	So, anyone but me like Metaplot? I don't know. I don't mind the setting advancing at all. I was looking forward to it. But I chafe under Metaplot simply because it implies 'This WILL impact your game. You gotta use it!' If you Don't include it, you're somehow lacking. Although I feel this way about many things, like the Kalashtar/Dreaming Dark conflict. It may not BE this way, but it feels like if I have psion or Kalashtar in the party, I must include the DD, because they are so intimately tied together. The material also seems to push really hard on the Daelkyr. Like "You gotta use this in your game man! They're SO COOL!" Simply by just how much material is out there on them. I'd much rather the setting advance like the real world does: new things occurring everywhere, and not wholly related. In essence, more adventure hooks related to new developments and follow ups. Instead of say, closing the adventure hook of "Desolation is now colonized", Riedra is setting up a colony in the Demon Wastes not far from the site of Desolation, which would add to anyone currently running that campaign in 998 AND add to the adventure hook if someone decided to do it in 100.
Rechan 10-07-07, 09:55 PM	So, anyone but me like Metaplot? I don't know. I don't mind the setting advancing at all. I was looking forward to it. But I chafe under Metaplot simply because it implies 'This WILL impact your game. You gotta use it!' If you Don't include it, you're somehow lacking. Although I feel this way about many things, like the Kalashtar/Dreaming Dark conflict. It may not BE this way, but it feels like if I have psion or Kalashtar in the party, I must include the DD, because they are so intimately tied together. The material also seems to push really hard on the Daelkyr. Like "You gotta use this in your game man! They're SO COOL!" Simply by just how much material is out there on them. I'd much rather the setting advance like the real world does: new things occurring everywhere, and not wholly related. In essence, more adventure hooks related to new developments and follow ups. Instead of say, closing the adventure hook of "Desolation is now colonized", Riedra is setting up a colony in the Demon Wastes not far from the site of Desolation, which would add to anyone currently running that campaign in 998 AND add to the adventure hook if someone decided to do it in 100. I prefer to use what I'm given as inspiration, rather than go for it wholesale.
Ogiwan 10-08-07, 10:21 AM	I can't really say I like it, myself. Then again, I'm biased. My favorite RPG is a certain Swashbuckling/high Adventure setting from another publisher that gets mentioned occasionally on these boards. It went through a long series brand managers, time line advancements and metaplot progressions, and I feel the end results of all of the publisher-inflicted metaplot is unplayable. The original setting -- as presented in its core PHB -- was a substantially more fun place for me to play than the world that came later. I mention all of this because I want to be clear, Charles. I am openly stating that my opinions about 'metaplot advancement' are subjective, partial, and completely based on facts and reasons that have nothing to do with Eberron itself. Based solely upon my experience with metaplot in other settings, I am now extremely leery about what the possible results will be whenever a publisher talks about advancing a time line like this. I suspect that many of the other people who disagree with you about metaplot had their opinions shaped in much the same way. -Sal. Hah. My opinions about metaplot advancement were shaped from the exact same source as yours; you just explained it better.
davethebrave371 10-08-07, 06:03 PM	So, anyone but me like Metaplot? Well, clearly I like metaplot or I'd be homebrewing it up. I don't like advancing metaplot. I think we need to define terms here. Metaplot, in and of itself, is simply the setting. I love the setting. I love metaplot to stay where it is as of its introduction, but I don't love metaplot advancing, time-wise. I don't love static metaplot. Let me get that out of the way right now. I want my metaplot added to...just not in a temporal fashion. I love seeing new hooks, new adventures, new places, new people, new uses for things, new ways to incorporate old things (or new things for that matter). And previous Eberron books have done a good job, overall, in doing all of this without advancing the timeline. I would like to see that continue.
Nived 10-08-07, 06:50 PM	I disagree Dave, a Setting is simply a setting. A plot is an advancing narative. The Setting is not the plot. Eberron has no plot. Every DM that uses Eberron has a plot. I have a plot, you have a plot, Edy has a plot, Shady has a plot, Keith Baker has a plot, James Wyatt has a plot. Our plots are set in Eberron, but Eberron has no plot. That's the point, its a setting. A metaplot is when there is a story evolving a setting. Essentially the story of the setting is now being dictated to us instead of being written by us each individually. Plot is no longer the domain of the DM, the plot is now dictated from above, a "Meta-Plot". I want a setting. I'll provide the plot.
Edymnion 10-08-07, 08:02 PM	But I chafe under Metaplot simply because it implies 'This WILL impact your game. You gotta use it!' If you Don't include it, you're somehow lacking.Not that you're lacking, but that you have a hell of a lot more work to do. When the metaplot advances in a setting, you either have to go along with it, like it or not, or try to remove the advancement you don't like. However, all books from then on will assume that you leave the advancement in place, so all other books will build off that advancement. Sure, say Kaius is killed in those 2 years and Karnnath plunges into civil war. Thats easy enough to take back out. But then you start getting PrCs for things like "Karnnathi Rebel Fighter" that are tied to that civil war, which you now have to also remove or edit. Then you have to take out any organizations that get introduced tied to the civil war, and any changes those organizations make on the rest of the setting have to be edited out or changed... Its ripples in a pond. Completely removing something in a seamless fashion means a lot of work. The setting should work with us, giving us the building blocks to make our own stories with, it shouldn't be fighting us every step of the way by telling us our stories are wrong just because the setting changed it's mind.
RadicalTaoist 10-08-07, 08:18 PM	Another vote against metaplot. I want the setting to evolve in the way my gaming group finds enjoyable, and I don't trust the authors to read our minds and figure out what that is. (For example, we like Kaius right where he is thank you very much. Leave the vampire king alone.)
Label 10-08-07, 10:34 PM	The setting should work with us, giving us the building blocks to make our own stories with, it shouldn't be fighting us every step of the way by telling us our stories are wrong just because the setting changed it's mind. I totally agree with this. D&D is a game where you create a story with your friends... a setting just gives you a... well... a Setting.
davethebrave371 10-08-07, 10:35 PM	And, of course, if you want a setting to give you metaplot, you've got every other setting under the sun.
18DELTA 10-09-07, 02:37 AM	The stupidest thing in Eberron, right now is their non-canonical novel process. Whoever thought that up is really insulting the readers. However, I can just declare them so in my games but it's still ridiculous. At least I know I can harvest them for ideas and hope someone realizes there's people who'd pay good money for a novel sourcebook down the line. I'm against badly written metaplot but a Setting exists to generate ideas, live, and grow. I was salivating at the prospect of a Dresden Files RPG. Then I found out they didn't intend to make any supplements for the game because they wanted to give players and DMs all they needed in one book. I literally threw it away. It had no value to me, whatsoever. At least in Eberron you get a choice. In the Forgotten Realms, well tough :censored: :banghead: I kinda like a static time line, its like a never shifting foundation. A really strudy base for a game. The Realms, well its like ( I really cant belive I am going to say this) quicksand. Keep it simple.:D
Edymnion 10-09-07, 12:59 PM	Another vote against metaplot. I want the setting to evolve in the way my gaming group finds enjoyable, and I don't trust the authors to read our minds and figure out what that is. (For example, we like Kaius right where he is thank you very much. Leave the vampire king alone.)Yes, I have a basic idea for how I would advance the metaplot, and it actually involves Kaius becoming a continent wide hero. Basic outline is that the Quori have pushed the nations towards peace, and all of the leaders are gathered together for a peace treaty signing. The Quori move in to assassinate the leaders (so that they can then later "catch" the "real" perpetrator and set themselves up as heroes, like they did in Reidera), kill some minor leader (like the snot nosed kid that probably replaces Borenal after he dies), then "kills" Kaius. Once the Quori turns it's attention to the rest, Kaius gets back up with a "Just because I'm dead doesn't mean you should turn your back on me!" line, goes Vampire Hunter D with the growing fangs and whatnot, and proceeds to tear the guy apart. Boom, Kaius saves the day, revealing his vampiric nature in the process, and still becomes a hero. He then goes on to become the key figure in opposing the Quori openly (since he doesn't dream, he can't be affected by them). But, for a lot of people, that wouldn't work. And I'd agree with them, it puts the Quori right out there in the open and makes the entire setting revolve around the fight with them. That would suck for everybody that didn't want to use the Dreaming Dark.
bykov1 10-09-07, 07:46 PM	I could counter every point with my own opinions, but in the end they are just that. Instead, I'll leave the topic with this: Everytime I start a new Eberron campaign or plan to start an Eberron campaign, it always starts at 998YK with all of the base assumptions in the ECS, which my players also use when creating their characters. Everything that occurs in the other campaigns has no bearing on the new one. It's basically an instance of Eberron rather than a continual story. As such, one campaign might advance in one way, but I can always start a new campaign using the existing material in each of the books I already own, keeping all of them relevant to my campaign world. To each their own. However, as a player, I would find it disconcerting to never have an impact on the game world. Bykov.
bykov1 10-09-07, 09:13 PM	There's a difference. One is optional. One is canon. Why does "canon" matter so much? Bykov.
kaor 10-09-07, 10:10 PM	I'll say I favor advancing the setting. My personal guess is that if they don't this thing won't be selling in five years. I don't know how long they plan to have it around, but I would think longer. How many more sourcebooks can they get out of this realistically without changing the timeline? Ten? Maybe, but it seems like a stretch. I can't imagine Twenty. I don't have their sales info, but again as a guess I'd think the sourcebook sales declined with each publication until Forge of War came out. Maybe someone out there can pull up the Amazon info and say otherwise, but the new is coming off of it (Eberron). Personally I believe novels are far more important for a setting than sourcebooks. If you want to sell a lot of setting material that is. I also think that significant events in the novels would have to be okayed by whoever runs the novel department at WOTC. After all, killing off Kaius would be a big event, one that was planned as part of the setting development. What exactly is so hard about assigning an author to write an "Intrigue in Karrnath" trilogy? Say Kaius is assassinated in 1001, and a short brutal war occurs between Thrane and Karrnath? People ghostwrite and write biographies all the time. It's not that hard. There have been a lot of great settings that never became popular (or at least FR scale popular). Wilderlands, Scarred Lands, Midnight, heck even Hackmaster. A bunch more I can think of, and I'm sure someone else can as well. But if the thing doesn't change, you reach a point where most of the useful stuff is printed. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people said they disagreed, but if you do tell me how many more books they can publish on this setting and what they should be about? It already looks to me like they are getting kind of thin on things to put into them. I don't post here enough to track whether you can discuss novels, or how you can discuss them. But I will say the novels started out being better than the FR ones. The last few don't seem to be as good, and the last one I brought I quit reading after about a fourth of it. (One of the Inquisitive books) Well that is my two cents. I'd love to see the actual sales info, but I don't think they are going to come off of that.
bykov1 10-09-07, 10:17 PM	Merrix gets Xulo? Nothing happens. Merrix doesn't get it? Nothing happens. It's like the entire journey turned out to be for getting Merrix's mail. I couldn't agree with you more Mr. Phipps. There needs to be the seeding of ideas. The above is a huge one. It starts a huge ball a rolling. This brings up two very good points, one for each side. 1) You develop a plot based on this adventure, causing grand things to happen, good or bad for House Cannith. Great adventure...but then they advance the time line in a different direction than you wrote and cause major ripples that impact your game adversely. But then again, canon is as canon as you make it. 2) No TLA and then, why did you play the adventure? There is a major plot line there that just dangles and Eberron isn't affected. It comes down to the fact that players want to feel they affect the world around them. That is the aspect of the world you control. But the rest of the world must change. A lack of creative influx from a TLA makes too much work for a GM. It is easier to ignore a TLA that you don't want to utilize, then to create a worldwide timeline that is lacking because of a lack of support from the settings creators. The year 998 is going to become saturated. For me, the lack of advancement means a stable foundation for the campaign, but I desire that TLA to keep the ball a rolling. I would like to see supplments written from the perspective of the baseline but with a 2, 5, & 10 year synopsis of the future of major plot points. Otherwise, the setting will stagnate. Now granted your own creativity dictates your campaigns arc, but everyone needs push once and a while. Currently, we are in two campaigns. The one I run has my players running a mission for Lady Elaydren to the Creation Forge as Merrix has gone missing. Xulo fun for the whole family. The other that I am a player in, is going to be a continually expansive arc that will influence each successive campaign revolving around the manifestation of aberrant true dragonmarks. This may actually lead to a new War of the Mark. The details around these events matter not to what is going to or not going to be written in future supplements. However, the world in absentia will still advance. It would be nice to have a progression in the timeline without having to hatch it oneself. There are some amazingly insightful and creative writers on WotC's staff, I trust them to develop the support material for my campaign. Bykov.
bykov1 10-09-07, 10:24 PM	Nope. Just means a different setting. Don't fear the change. Don't you think this is hypocritcal to what you are abdicating for Eberron? Bykov.
Edymnion 10-09-07, 10:28 PM	Why does "canon" matter so much?As has been said repeatedly in this thread. Canon is what *ALL* books printed *MUST* use as a base. The ECS is canon for Eberron, hence if it says Warforge have X ability, then every Eberron book published for the rest of time basically has to admit that they have X ability, and include that fact whenever appropriate. For example, it is canon that Karnnath used undead in the last war. Hence, every book referencing Karnnath's role in the last war is going to have to mention that it used undead. No later book can contradict that, because its setting canon. Same applies with everything else. As soon as something becomes setting canon, it is officially a part of the setting and cannot be removed by future books. We can houserule it out, but every single book published from then on has to use or at least not contradict that information. If the timeline advanced, Kaius died, and Karnnath was plunged into civil war, every Eberron book that referenced Karnnath from then on would be forced to accept the civil war as the way things are, and use it. Which means that if its something you don't like, you have to houserule it out of every book published from then on out. You have to houserule out anything that references that change. Many times, you will even have to houserule anything that references something that references that change. For example, lets say the canon blows up Sharn. Boom, no more Sharn, and its canon. Which means the city of Sharn will never appear in any Eberron book ever again. It means that all the future books will talk about the differant reactions to the destruction of Sharn, which will be material you can't use if you don't want Sharn to be gone. Then you could get material talking about which countries take in Sharian refugees and the leftover cyrian refugees, and how that puts a burden on them, which changes how they act, which you would not only have to not do, you would then have to fix those countries back to the way they were before. And then you'd have the reactions of countries to the reactions of other countries. If Aundaire got overrun by brelish refugees, Thrane might take that oppertunity to invade to retake territory, which means you would then be houseruling out a reaction to a reaction to an event you didn't want. Its the same thing here. Once something is canon, everything assumes you will be using it, and will be printed accourdingly. If you don't use it, you will have an ever-increasing set of houserules to try and take it back out, which just gets bigger and bigger with every book that gets published. Canon is basically as close to "You have to use this material, if you like it or not" that the game can come.
bykov1 10-09-07, 10:36 PM	Here is my happy medium solution: Make a suppliment book called something along the lines of "Eberron: 1000yk" Which covers all the events of 998-1000yk along with all the standard new feats, prcs, items, plot hooks, etc (Kind of like "The Forge of War" book). The solution makes everyone happy: People who don't like the TLA just don't have to buy the book, People who want the TLA (*cough*Charles*cough* :P) can buy the book and use it, and Wizards is happy because they get to make an easy to make book to sell. This idea could also be continued in both directions as well: Make similar books for the Giants vs Quori war, the Xoriat invasion of Khorvaire, etc. That is something I would buy and could be happy with. That being said, it still doesn't change the fact that you, as GM, have the inalienable right to veto any TLA's that do not fit into your campaign. As I said previously, 998 as a baseline is a great idea. I hope WotC takes this que. Bykov.
bykov1 10-09-07, 10:38 PM	But when Metaplot advanced my stories become 'invalid'. Because now officially 'that didn't happen'. The other way it never officially happens either, but I don't have to be told 'it didn't happen that way." They are only as invalid as you, the GM, makes them. You siad it earlier in your post, you metagame doesn't affect Edy's, and vice-versa. So why should WotC's? Bykov.
bykov1 10-09-07, 11:37 PM	Yet, The Last War itself is pointless. It's a wonderful background element that you have the greatest soldiers in the world from this period who devoted their lives to the War but no one is quite sure what the hell it accomplished. I personally like the fact that Eberron just emerged from a 100 year war with no epic NPC's. How does that happen? 1st edition subdual rules? Bykov.
bykov1 10-09-07, 11:40 PM	So, anyone but me like Metaplot? Metaplots are needed to inspire not dictate. So yes, I like them. Bykov.
bykov1 10-09-07, 11:52 PM	For example, lets say the canon blows up Sharn. Boom, no more Sharn, and its canon. Which means the city of Sharn will never appear in any Eberron book ever again. It means that all the future books will talk about the differant reactions to the destruction of Sharn, which will be material you can't use if you don't want Sharn to be gone. Then you could get material talking about which countries take in Sharian refugees and the leftover cyrian refugees, and how that puts a burden on them, which changes how they act, which you would not only have to not do, you would then have to fix those countries back to the way they were before. And then you'd have the reactions of countries to the reactions of other countries. If Aundaire got overrun by brelish refugees, Thrane might take that oppertunity to invade to retake territory, which means you would then be houseruling out a reaction to a reaction to an event you didn't want. Its the same thing here. Once something is canon, everything assumes you will be using it, and will be printed accourdingly. If you don't use it, you will have an ever-increasing set of houserules to try and take it back out, which just gets bigger and bigger with every book that gets published. Canon is basically as close to "You have to use this material, if you like it or not" that the game can come. But then, what is the difference if nothing advances? If it is stagnant, you still have all that work to do. However, if you can roll certain aspects into your campaign, then that is *less* work for you to do as a GM. In you example, if Sharn blows up and you don;t like it, then you have to modify everything. If *nothing* happens, you have to create everything. So what is the difference? I would much rather have the information and not need it, then not have it at all. But that said, I would want to have the inforamation as it relates to the baseline of 998. Bykov.
davethebrave371 10-10-07, 01:49 AM	In you example, if Sharn blows up and you don;t like it, then you have to modify everything. If *nothing* happens, you have to create everything. So what is the difference? The difference is every setting does the "you have to modify everything" already. I'd prefer having to create, and have my players have an impact.
RadicalTaoist 10-10-07, 09:13 AM	Yes, I have a basic idea for how I would advance the metaplot, and it actually involves Kaius becoming a continent wide hero. Basic outline is that the Quori have pushed the nations towards peace, and all of the leaders are gathered together for a peace treaty signing. The Quori move in to assassinate the leaders (so that they can then later "catch" the "real" perpetrator and set themselves up as heroes, like they did in Reidera), kill some minor leader (like the snot nosed kid that probably replaces Borenal after he dies), then "kills" Kaius. Once the Quori turns it's attention to the rest, Kaius gets back up with a "Just because I'm dead doesn't mean you should turn your back on me!" line, goes Vampire Hunter D with the growing fangs and whatnot, and proceeds to tear the guy apart. Boom, Kaius saves the day, revealing his vampiric nature in the process, and still becomes a hero. He then goes on to become the key figure in opposing the Quori openly (since he doesn't dream, he can't be affected by them). But, for a lot of people, that wouldn't work. And I'd agree with them, it puts the Quori right out there in the open and makes the entire setting revolve around the fight with them. That would suck for everybody that didn't want to use the Dreaming Dark. ...that's a gawdamn awesome idea.
bykov1 10-10-07, 10:24 AM	The difference is every setting does the "you have to modify everything" already. I'd prefer having to create, and have my players have an impact. So, because some sourcebook define whether or not you character make an impact on your campaign? In the converse scenario, nothing is written and there still is no "canon" impact. Why does it matter? I played in a game in which Elturel was nearly destroyed by a Nature Elemental, which was a gift from the Zhentarim for our meddling in their affairs. Elturel in our campaign was rebuilt into a major gateway trading hub between the Southern Kingdoms and the North. This is a given in our campaign world and nothing written since has changed that. It seems as though the issue here is that, for some reason, people perceive what is written as tangible shackles to your campaign. Unfortunately, nothing I say/write can change those perceptions. I just hope that this stagnation in Eberron does not prevent the expansion of the setting. As it does seem, that no matter the viewpoint in this thread, the people here really enjoy the setting. Luck to All! Bykov.
Edymnion 10-10-07, 12:41 PM	But then, what is the difference if nothing advances? If it is stagnant, you still have all that work to do. However, if you can roll certain aspects into your campaign, then that is *less* work for you to do as a GM.Just because the setting doesn't advance does not mean it has to stagnate. There are still plenty of books to write just for the current time period, and there's some million years of backstory to dive into.In you example, if Sharn blows up and you don;t like it, then you have to modify everything. If *nothing* happens, you have to create everything. So what is the difference?One leaves you options to make whatever you want. One takes away all but one option.
Anguish2 10-10-07, 02:21 PM	To each their own. However, as a player, I would find it disconcerting to never have an impact on the game world. Bykov. You do have an impact on the game world. It's just that your impact is restrained to a particular campaign. Don't expect that because you ended a game of chess with mate that you should start the next chess game in the same position. But really for instance, I've "let" my players a} be responsible for the formation of the Mourning, and b} shut it back off again. The beauty is that in another campaign, if we want to, we can explore the place again and have a completely different interpretation of its origins and future. What if you have two DMs in your group, who run back-to-back campaigns, both in Eberron? The second DM has to continue the history established during the first campaign, even if you're looking at new characters in a new portion of the world? That wouldn't make me very happy. Not as a player, not as a DM. A timeline advance wouldn't've killed me, or even really upset me. But I find there's so much unexplored potential in 998YK as it stands that I'm in no way eager for advancement.
Ultimatecalibur 10-10-07, 02:50 PM	From what I have seen there are several types of metaplot, and they are divided on what advances them. Two I have noticed are: Story Based - The metaplot is advanced based on events that happen in the campaign settings books, short stories, and licensed video and computer games. If there are any published adventures for the setting there is also a novelization of that adventure and a canon group that completed it in the setting. Forgotten Realms is one of these. This seems to be the type that many players tend to heavily dislike. Adventure Based - The metaplot is advanced based on the settings published adventures. One or more of the endings or sometimes a hybrid ending is chosen as canon. When the events of the adventure are mentioned in passing they are usual attributed to a mysterious band of adventures. This type of metaplot was often used in the Ravenloft CS. This seems to be the type that Charles wants for Eberron.
Cifer 10-10-07, 07:22 PM	In you example, if Sharn blows up and you don;t like it, then you have to modify everything. If *nothing* happens, you have to create everything. So what is the difference? The difference is that you might overlook something. Or forget to tell your players something. Let's say Edy's idea of blowing up Sharn got realized. Now, your player reads up on the Thranish news in a hypothetical "5N in 1000YK" supplement (he's got a full-time job and spends a little less time on the hobby than your average boarder, so he doesn't read the entire book) and reads that Thrane recently took some ground from Aundair. He knows that his DM has removed the Sharn incident, but Thrane and Aundair both are at the far end of the continent, aren't they? So while his DM thinks it's clear for everyone that none of the Sharn-related events ever took place, the player doesn't know that, which might cause some confusion.
bykov1 10-10-07, 08:54 PM	Just because the setting doesn't advance does not mean it has to stagnate. There are still plenty of books to write just for the current time period, and there's some million years of backstory to dive into.One leaves you options to make whatever you want. One takes away all but one option. How? Because they wrote it in a book, you MUST COMPLY?!? Bah. Bykov.
bykov1 10-10-07, 10:35 PM	You do have an impact on the game world. It's just that your impact is restrained to a particular campaign. Don't expect that because you ended a game of chess with mate that you should start the next chess game in the same position. But really for instance, I've "let" my players a} be responsible for the formation of the Mourning, and b} shut it back off again. The beauty is that in another campaign, if we want to, we can explore the place again and have a completely different interpretation of its origins and future. What if you have two DMs in your group, who run back-to-back campaigns, both in Eberron? The second DM has to continue the history established during the first campaign, even if you're looking at new characters in a new portion of the world? That wouldn't make me very happy. Not as a player, not as a DM. A timeline advance wouldn't've killed me, or even really upset me. But I find there's so much unexplored potential in 998YK as it stands that I'm in no way eager for advancement. But that is the nice thing. You always have that choice. You can always restart from the begining or add onto a previous campaign. No one "has to" use what is published. No one "has to" continue from a previous GM. Not advancing the timeline, can only decrease you options. In FR, you can play from Netheril, you can play before the Time of Troubles, you can play now. You have options. What is published is only one option. Saying that what is published "has to" be the future in your campaign, is in my opinion, narrow minded. Bykov.
Edymnion 10-10-07, 10:43 PM	How? Because they wrote it in a book, you MUST COMPLY?!? Bah.The Oberroni Falacy comes close to applying to this situation. "Just becuase the DM can fix it doesn't mean it wasn't broken to begin with." Why care if the 4e ECS has Elminster and Drizzt in it? After all, you can just ignore it, right? Or that all shifters suddenly shrink to the size of housecats, you can just ignore it, right? And when the next book uses the same info, you can just ignore that, and ignore the book after that, and eventually you find that you simply can't use entire books because they deal entirely with things that you've decided to ignore. Or, they could just not screw with the timeline, and let everybody keep making their own stories like we've been doing for the past several years. That way, nobody's game gets invalidated, nobody has anything to ignore/rewrite, and we can all be on even footing when discussing the setting.
Label 10-11-07, 04:41 AM	Or, they could just not screw with the timeline, and let everybody keep making their own stories like we've been doing for the past several years. That way, nobody's game gets invalidated, nobody has anything to ignore/rewrite, and we can all be on even footing when discussing the setting. :tiphat:
_Radagast_ 10-11-07, 06:59 AM	Or, they could just not screw with the timeline, and let everybody keep making their own stories like we've been doing for the past several years. That way, nobody's game gets invalidated, nobody has anything to ignore/rewrite, and we can all be on even footing when discussing the setting. Which is what they are doing if I'm not mistaken. Hooray! Everyone rejoice.
bykov1 10-11-07, 10:26 AM	The Oberroni Falacy comes close to applying to this situation. "Just becuase the DM can fix it doesn't mean it wasn't broken to begin with." Why care if the 4e ECS has Elminster and Drizzt in it? After all, you can just ignore it, right? Or that all shifters suddenly shrink to the size of housecats, you can just ignore it, right? And when the next book uses the same info, you can just ignore that, and ignore the book after that, and eventually you find that you simply can't use entire books because they deal entirely with things that you've decided to ignore. Assinine example, but I see you point. Or, they could just not screw with the timeline, and let everybody keep making their own stories like we've been doing for the past several years. That way, nobody's game gets invalidated, nobody has anything to ignore/rewrite, and we can all be on even footing when discussing the setting. What they write cannot invalidate YOUR game. New intrigue is needed in any setting. In order to generate new intrigue, the timeline would need to progress. Now granted, you can be the one that generates all the intrigue and honestly, I am fine with that. Our campaign, though fledgling, will likely have the next 50 years tied up, if not more. But I would like to see some progression in the aspects not directly involving our game. I have only met one GM that could maintain and modify a whole world's worth of progression in his noodle. If the timeline never progresses, that means, in order for WotC to generate income for the Eberron campaign setting, they would need to continue to flush out the year 998. Eventually, the whole world will be detailed, thus eliminating the gray areas left for the GM to manipulate outside of the "points of light" I would much rather see the "points of light" progress and allow us our gray areas to be left to our devices. It seems as though the gaming populace as a whole completely lacks faith in WotC to progress a timeline in Eberron and keep true to base concept of the realm. Now, I do see alot of people love to deride FR for its realm shaking events, but several of them, for me, were just greatly inspiring. Who would have thought to bring back the City of Shade? Thay to change it's tactics? The Elves to end their Retreat? To be honest, I thought of one of them. Several of them I thought were inspiring. New foes, new intrigues, et al. keep things interesting. Fighting the Zhentarim, ad nauseum, ad infinitum can get really old. I truly love the flavor of Eberron. It is a vastly different setting than FR. I appreciate both for their given aspects. I do not want Eberron to turn into an FR. However, my fear is, that without supported new intrigues Eberron will eventually stagnate. Personally, I am more fearful of FR being lept forward 10 to 100 years (I really don't like the path they are taking with FR) than I would have been of Eberron being lept forward 2 years. Personnaly, I believe both realms need to be left alone for a while (as well as 3.5). There are many things in both realms that still need to be highlighted. Berron is still such a blank slate in terms of our understanding the grand, new, exciting realm. However, in the future, I would like to see Eberron advanced. Bykov.
Edymnion 10-11-07, 01:00 PM	Assinine example, but I see you point.Yeah, it was stretching things, but I always found the "well you don't have to use it" defense to be just as thin. "You don't have to use it if you don't want to" is*ALWAYS* the default option. There's really no point in discussing anything if we keep coming back to that. Pretty much the main thing that makes discussing this game possible outside our own groups is the basic assumption that we are all using the same rules unless we specifically say otherwise. Updated canon automatically becomes those default rules by, well, default.In order to generate new intrigue, the timeline would need to progress.No you don't. Its already been said several times that there are tens of thousands of years of perfectly valid gametime that can be explored. The Last War, the Galifar years, the settling of Khovaire, all the way back to the age of Dragons for those that want to run a larger than life Demons vs. Dragons game. We aren't limited to JUST 998 YK. Thats just the latest point in time we can go to. I have only met one GM that could maintain and modify a whole world's worth of progression in his noodle.Agreed, most people can't track that much detail in their heads, which is why they write it down. But thats neither here nor there. If the timeline never progresses, that means, in order for WotC to generate income for the Eberron campaign setting, they would need to continue to flush out the year 998. Eventually, the whole world will be detailed, thus eliminating the gray areas left for the GM to manipulate outside of the "points of light"See above about going into the past. People claim to like Faerun because it has so much history, which was the result of timeline advancement. So why not advance the timeline backwards to give the same kind of depth? Now, I do see alot of people love to deride FR for its realm shaking events, but several of them, for me, were just greatly inspiring.And for every one of those you get a Time of Troubles.I truly love the flavor of Eberron. It is a vastly different setting than FR. I appreciate both for their given aspects. I do not want Eberron to turn into an FR. However, my fear is, that without supported new intrigues Eberron will eventually stagnate.My fear is that advancing the metaplot will turn Eberron into Faerun, precisely because it was advancing the metaplot that, IMO, turned Faerun into the unholy mess that it is today. Personally, I am more fearful of FR being lept forward 10 to 100 years (I really don't like the path they are taking with FR) than I would have been of Eberron being lept forward 2 years.See, thats the exact same thing I'm talking about here. Advancing the timeline would never be a one time deal. WotC would do it, and unless there was a massive outcry would then see that people liked/didn't care about it, and would feel free to do it again whenever they wanted. You say you don't want FR to advance because of the direction its taking. That is precisely what I'm looking to avoid altogether with Eberron. The day the Eberron timeline advances is the day before the Eberron Time of Troubles.Personnaly, I believe both realms need to be left alone for a while (as well as 3.5). There are many things in both realms that still need to be highlighted. Berron is still such a blank slate in terms of our understanding the grand, new, exciting realm. However, in the future, I would like to see Eberron advanced.We're in agreement here. I'm not opposed to advancing the Eberron timeline when everything else is done and its either "advance the timeline or retire the setting". I just happen to think we've still got many long years of material to use before that happens.
LadyJorasco 10-11-07, 08:05 PM	on top of any other argument i think its important to note that getting full use out of your 3.5 books makes no TLA really worth it. in terms of fluff they might as well be 4e books as far as 4e players are concerned which is really cool. with TLA that stops being the case.
davethebrave371 10-12-07, 02:16 AM	on top of any other argument i think its important to note that getting full use out of your 3.5 books makes no TLA really worth it. in terms of fluff they might as well be 4e books as far as 4e players are concerned which is really cool. with TLA that stops being the case. Have I ever mentioned how much I love your sig?
Isran_Imrador 10-12-07, 06:50 AM	Keep Eberron Advancement Free... :) :D :cheer: :dancin: :clap: We still need Aerenal, East & Western Khorvaire, Seren, Past Xen`Drik, Dragon Wars Books.... To name a few...
Remmster 10-12-07, 07:13 AM	I truly love the flavor of Eberron. It is a vastly different setting than FR. I appreciate both for their given aspects. I do not want Eberron to turn into an FR. However, my fear is, that without supported new intrigues Eberron will eventually stagnate. My fear is that advancing the metaplot will turn Eberron into Faerun, precisely because it was advancing the metaplot that, IMO, turned Faerun into the unholy mess that it is today. Why I understand that some people might like to see an advancement against stagnation, I really don't see why any official canonic advancement is necessary for that. I don't think James & Co wouldn't do it any other way about 90% of all DMs out there would handle it: Give something a little push, and watch things rolling and see where it leads - except that, without an official advancement line, which might eventually be considered the "only true one", there's less of a chance the avalanche makes an (unstoppable) turn you don't like. (I think someone already pointed that out earlier with the Sharn-Blown-Up-Example.) But anyway, what else is it then to declare for yourself "In 1002, Boranel dies." and see where it leads - in my opinion, deciding stuff yourself and keeping track of it is less work than keeping track of official advancements (for one: it doesn't involve any money, just the time - and time it takes either way). It just takes a few written notes, really. Maybe as a DM, you can sometimes forget that your players will only get tiny bits of the "grand scheme" that lingers in your head anyway. You see it all, and you worry about it all - but you can't even start to burden even half of it onto your players' backs if you don't want to overload them with info (and maybe even take a lot of excitement out of the game anyway). Players have enough to keep track of with the current situation and near past/future - so just focus on the campaign and adjust your background a little when needed, before your head explodes. At least *I* think that's way more comfortable then trying to learn new bits of worldspanning events detailled periodically. If things still stagnate, you can still go all earthdawn on Eberron and release every Rhakshasa Rahja ever imprisoned for one helluva party. The Eberron frame really is both solid and flexible enough to allow a lot of things rolling when set lose. What I actually wanted to say though, before I got into repeating what has already been said (bad habbit, I know), is that the whole Faerun/Eberron-Comparisons commonly fail to consider the vary different themes of both settings, with what in mind they were born. If you look around, nearly every major setting out there that was born in a rather classic step-by-step fashion, usually leaning on various staple-fantasy elements and/or using a lot of real-world-reference (trying to be very "realistic" and detailled) and building from there actually needed the ongoing timeline, because they were often constructed in a "peaceful" environment. Sure, minor hassles here and there, but many settings tried to give the impression of a moment in "neutral" territory. Fact is, once you got over various Kill-the-Monster and courier-quests and the like, certain spots of certain settings turned out to be well concepted, but plainly boring. So, every once in a while, a big mean country had to be created to give some really evil stuff to play with, or an ancient enemy had to reappear, or a whole new enemy had to be born - and at some point, the whole thing really needed a kick in the crownjewels. (I realize this sounds a little harsh, but let it be known that I'm not trying to say this is entirely bad or a huge inferiority or whatsoever - I just think it's a natural "human" thing to happen quite often). Now, as I see it, Eberron was born to be explosive. While the starting point also leans somewhat to "peace" and "neutrality", it's still more like a breather inbetween already integreted shake-ups (You don't have to be the Sage to conclude that just a wrong sneeze at the wrong time might rekindle war actions, set free an ancient evil or make you stumble upon a conspiracy to dominate every free mind by infiltrating dreams). It tried less to be totally "realistic" and focus on actual events and adventure-friendly elements, only adding nice decorative detail that mimics certain real-world-history. Still, the themes and events for various adventure concepts, ideas and styles (also incorparating the "classic style") dominate the setting, not the history or the geography. And that's where I think the Realms are different, they were build exactly from the background to the plot (I might be wrong, but I think it's a valid view of how it developed in the first place). In the end result, Eberron works a whole not more dynamically on its own, even if it is totally "stagnant", because in the end, it's the adventure with your players that counts, and Eberron gives you a whole lot of possibilities to tie in PCs, world history and conflicts, prospects and past into a comprehensive whole that kinda works straight out of the box. With that kind of build-in conflict around every corner, it's not hard to deliver that tiny nudge that can get things rolling for years to come in your own campaign, and that's why Eberron actually does not need a timeline advancement for a long, long time. So in my eyes it's also a matter of getting your priorities straight - wanting both a rich history in the past as well as the future and at the same time a lot of very different themes at a given time to work with, as well as very heroic/PC-centered events is a little much to ask. Either do the history and then look how to squeeze in actual gaming sessions (the Realms-Way, at least partly), or build from the Adventurers up into the history and metaplot (in my eyes, the Eberron-Way). I guess when you start wanting a compromise and balance between the two (and at the same time serve a wider audience than just your private gaming group), you get the "unholy mess" that the Realms grew into. Even then, I would not see the setting "retiring", but just as "completed" - which would be a nice change. You see, settings keep evolving, disappear into the out-of-print-void along the lines, gets blasted into oblivion by whatsoeverapocalypticevent because someone realized it went in the wrong direction or wanted to start something entirely new (I'm looking at you, WoD1 and 2), or just drop the Metaplot along the way (hello SR) - or keep running until you will lose interest anyway and are looking for totally new grounds. In so far, I would *not* mind to have framework that is at one point simply complete. It will still work as a framework, and I can rest assured it will remain a reliable tool in the box as I came to be used to it, know it and like it. And, maybe, it won't scare newcomers. Like the Big Moma settings nowadays often can. WELL, ANYWAY: WOOHOOO! (and now to bed, my eyes are about to bleed from sleepiness. If I didn't make much sense, blame the 30+ hours of being awake.)
LadyJorasco 10-15-07, 12:38 PM	remmster you make a lot of sense to me!! :)
Ramses III 10-16-07, 03:57 AM	Generating new intrigue is the DM's job. That's what you do when you run a game; that's what you're supposed to be doing (and why I like DMing). Eberron as it stands provides a wealth of potential plot hooks and says, "run with it!" Want to explore the effects of Boranel's death on the political climate of Khorvaire? Kill him off in your game and see what the fallout is. Want the Dreaming Dark to take over part of Zilargo? You have the freedom to do it. The problem with a TLA is when these aren't the changes I want to explore in my game. The beauty of a setting without forward time progression is that every DM has this starting point with the same implicit prerogative, to progress the story however he or she wants (and wherever the players take it!). It's a setting for creative DMs, who want to give life to their own story. Mine, for instance, is the tale of a group of adventurers caught in the web of prophecy, who run afoul of a tangled conspiracy involving the Lords of Dust, a group of bloodthirsty Lhazaar pirates, and the evilest band of Karrns you ever laid eyes on. Any number of potential canonical changes could screw up the plot twists I have planned, not the least of which would be the instance of killing off King Kaius, the main NPC foil to the Karrn group.
davethebrave371 10-18-07, 03:13 AM	A good point has been raised elsewhere (mostly on the 4E boards). If the timeline is unmoving now, how are they going to incorporate the new races? Tieflings KB has given a good no TLA, no retcon rundown. But what about, say, eladrins?
eehamburg 10-18-07, 09:11 AM	A good point has been raised elsewhere (mostly on the 4E boards). If the timeline is unmoving now, how are they going to incorporate the new races? Tieflings KB has given a good no TLA, no retcon rundown. But what about, say, eladrins? If you take the KB interpretation of Tieflings and their kin, how are Eladrin different? Please explain.
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-18-07, 10:41 AM	A good point has been raised elsewhere (mostly on the 4E boards). If the timeline is unmoving now, how are they going to incorporate the new races? Tieflings KB has given a good no TLA, no retcon rundown. But what about, say, eladrins? Maybe they won't be introduced into the setting. Dragonlance and Dark Sun were both known for not including major races (orcs for DL, although there was a half-orc in one book -> canon error?, and also no halflings) and many races were wiped out in Dark Sun before play starts, including gnomes. I figure the carrion-eaters are the only humans likely to sleep with fiends. Considering the closed planar nature, I think the opportunity to create more tieflings is very low, so if tieflings are introduced as a new race, they'll probably breed only with each other (sort of like how most half-elves are apparently the products of other half-elves).
davethebrave371 10-18-07, 11:35 AM	Maybe they won't be introduced into the setting. Dragonlance and Dark Sun were both known for not including major races (orcs for DL, although there was a half-orc in one book -> canon error?, and also no halflings) and many races were wiped out in Dark Sun before play starts, including gnomes. I figure the carrion-eaters are the only humans likely to sleep with fiends. Considering the closed planar nature, I think the opportunity to create more tieflings is very low, so if tieflings are introduced as a new race, they'll probably breed only with each other (sort of like how most half-elves are apparently the products of other half-elves). Actually, Hellcow had a nifty idea tying them to manifest zones, giving them a more Eberronian flavour. The posts he makes in this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=933699) and this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=915020) really explain it better than I ever could.
eehamburg 10-18-07, 11:58 AM	Actually, Hellcow had a nifty idea tying them to manifest zones, giving them a more Eberronian flavour. The posts he makes in this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=933699) and this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=915020) really explain it better than I ever could. Which specific posts because this is a lot to go through and if you can remember specific posts, it would be more helpful.
davethebrave371 10-18-07, 12:22 PM	Which specific posts because this is a lot to go through and if you can remember specific posts, it would be more helpful. You can always go specifically through Hellcow's posts (http://forums.gleemax.com/search.php?searchid=615240), or just go to your forum settings and put it at maximum number of posts per page (I do this, so each of those threads is under seven pages for me) and then Ctrl+F (I don't know what it is on a Mac, if you have a Mac, but there's a "Find on this Page" function for Macs as well) and then search for "Hellcow" and you'll see all his posts in no time.
eehamburg 10-18-07, 12:30 PM	You can always go specifically through Hellcow's posts (http://forums.gleemax.com/search.php?searchid=615240), or just go to your forum settings and put it at maximum number of posts per page (I do this, so each of those threads is under seven pages for me) and then Ctrl+F (I don't know what it is on a Mac, if you have a Mac, but there's a "Find on this Page" function for Macs as well) and then search for "Hellcow" and you'll see all his posts in no time. Didn't work ... oh well.
DoveArrow 10-19-07, 12:46 AM	I'm actually quite disappointed that they're not going to advance the timeline. 998 YK is starting to feel a little cramped for space, if you ask me. Plus, my fear is that they're going to 'incorporate' the new rules from 4e in much the same way that they 'incorporated' the new rules for Incarnum in PGtE. In other words, it's going to be a thin whitewash over the campaign setting, and instead of making everything cooler, it's going to make you want to claw out your eyes in the vain hope that it will make you forget the travesties that you've just read.
davethebrave371 10-19-07, 02:25 AM	I'm actually quite disappointed that they're not going to advance the timeline. 998 YK is starting to feel a little cramped for space, if you ask me. I actually feel overwhelmed with too much stuff, and a TLA would only exacerbate that. As it stands, there's far too much for any one campaign already. There's easily a dozen campaigns worth of material, and those'd each be campaigns lasting a few years. If you ask me. Plus, my fear is that they're going to 'incorporate' the new rules from 4e in much the same way that they 'incorporated' the new rules for Incarnum in PGtE. In other words, it's going to be a thin whitewash over the campaign setting, and instead of making everything cooler, it's going to make you want to claw out your eyes in the vain hope that it will make you forget the travesties that you've just read. Well, to be honest, any sort of nonstandard magic works better as ancient dragon/giant discoveries. I think plopping the races in was a little sloppy. But it wasn't a whitewash over the campaign setting, as it only touched a tiny tiny place in the setting. A couple islands, to be specific. So, in other words, it's less a whitewash and more a dab of white paint on a mile wide tapestry.
Edymnion 10-19-07, 08:46 AM	"Oh how will we integrate the new races?" Last I checked, there were already Teiflings in Eberron, they just haven't been detailed. Honestly, all it would take to integrate them is to up their percentages on the population charts. Problem solved. :)
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-19-07, 10:33 AM	You don't even need to mess with their population numbers. They can be rare, just like changelings.
davethebrave371 10-19-07, 12:04 PM	Which is neither here nor there, KB has already put forward options in line with what both of you are talking about. I was referring to eladrins primarily.
Edymnion 10-19-07, 12:21 PM	Which is neither here nor there, KB has already put forward options in line with what both of you are talking about. I was referring to eladrins primarily.What is an Eladrin? *googles* Okay, so basically the good aligned version of Teiflings. No biggy, just say they were always there, same as the Teiflings. Long as they don't go getting their own dragonmarked houses, it'll be fine.
davethebrave371 10-19-07, 12:34 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070905a http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dudc/20071019 http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e#races
ZeroSD 10-19-07, 05:19 PM	I like the idea of covering the world before advancing it... I'm not opposed to eventual timeline movements, but right now, lots of Khorvaire, Aerenal, and Xen'drik are not heavily covered.