Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stone_dog 05-06-04, 03:28 AM	I just had to start a new thread about this wonderful thing I just read that is confirmed by Hellcow. Eberron has rings. My quest for multiple moons is now made moot for this is SO much better in my mind. Hell, you don't even need a north star anymore for navigation! If you are north of the equator the rings are to your South and vice versa for south of it. Plus you might be able to gauge how far north or south you are by how many rings are clear or how wide they are. If you are right at the equator there would only be a band across the sky I imagine. This all brings to mind questions of the size of the world... how far out the moon(s) is(are)... inside or outside of the rings... all sorts of stuff. Good lord I am a happy dog now.
Masterful_Norg 05-06-04, 03:40 AM	Whoa! Rings! What a brilliant idea! What are the tides like because of these rings I wonder? I was so filled with "why didn't I think of that" that I dove out my window into the streets a hundred feet below.
stone_dog 05-06-04, 03:42 AM	Who says tides are influenced by things in the sky? Maybe we are looking at a steady rise and fall caused by the World Wyrm breathing in and out like an Epic Charybdis through vents at the bottom of the deepest ocean trenches.
Stormtalon 05-06-04, 09:11 AM	Hmmm, rings, moons, airships.... Ya know, it's just a wee tiny step up to having full-fledged spelljammers somewhere about, travelling up to harvest dragonshards. Now where DID I put that copy of Dungeon magazine...? Stormtalon
JohnnyONeal 05-06-04, 10:00 AM	Really interesting stuff. Who would have guessed that E3 game articles would result in more Eberron information? The ring sounds neat and distinctive. It's interesting, though, that it's not the only source of dragonshards. It certainly prompts a lot of questions: How did dragonshards get created in the first place? Can you have weapons and armor made out of dragonshards? Can warforged juggernauts use dragonshards to power themselves? How do dragons feel about dragonshards? Do dragons patrol the skies, ready to strike down any airship that looks like it's going to try harvesting the rings? Do people realize that the rings they see at night are made of the legendary dragonshards? What does all this have to do with "Tiamat" being "clearly visible" in the night sky on a certain night? The night sky of Eberron must beautiful. All of a sudden, I want to play an Eberron game with a first-person perspective, just so I can look up at it.
Takasi 05-06-04, 10:12 AM	All of a sudden, I want to play an Eberron game with a first-person perspective, just so I can look up at it. Too bad D&D Online is over a year away. :(
WilliamPall 05-06-04, 10:28 AM	Originally posted by WilliamPall Hmm . . . I'm trying to think . . . is this the first DnD camapign setting that's had a ring around the world? I mean think about it. wouldn't a ring have an effect on daylight and such? I know enought o know about astronomy to know that I know jack squat. But, in my in my completely un-educated little mind part of me has an idea that the oribital ring could be visible from the ground. and what happens, during the course of the day, when the rings orientatioin would block the sun from vew. I'm thinking these dragonshards could have something to do with why the images of all the book covers have that vein running across them. I had just finished writing this out in the message thread that Hellcow verified the ring. My comments are much more on-topic for this thread.
TwinBahamut 05-06-04, 11:04 AM	I doubt an orbital ring would block the sun at all, and if so, it would be any more than a very slight darkening, perhaps like a thin cloud over the sun. Orbital rings are made of layers of rocks and dust up in orbit. They are neither solid objects capable of shutting out large amounts of light, nor are they close enough to the ground to cause massive shadows. It is not going to affect day/night cycles, and will probably have miniscule effects on tides (even if a ring had the gravitational pull to affect tides, the pull from all directions would probably cancel the effect out). Remember, our moon has such a significant effect on tides because it is the most massive moon in the solar system and circles the planet. A ring isn't like that. I do think they would make a spectacular sky though. Even puny man-made satellites in the real world can be seen from the ground if you know where to look, so something like a dust ring reflecting the sun would be surely visible and spectacular. Probably something in the order of a permanent rainbow. I like the idea.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 05-06-04, 12:01 PM	I have just had an idea.... The rings are dragon shards right? And Tiamat is clearly visable sometimes right? So how about if there are two rings...perhaps one is metallic and one is chromatic coloured. One of the rings is called Bahamut, the other Tiamat. This would make sense, because on cloudy nights the rings wont be very visible. Tiamat could be visible while Bahamut is not if the rings are perpendicular to each other, creating a sort of + sign around the planet.
Steven Snyder 05-06-04, 12:03 PM	Originally posted by TwinBahamut IRemember, our moon has such a significant effect on tides because it is the most massive moon in the solar system... Actually Ganymede is more massive Our Moon: 7.4e+22 Ganymede: 1.48e+23
WilliamPall 05-06-04, 12:11 PM	I think it was meant that our moon is the most massive in ratio with the planet it orbits.
JohnnyONeal 05-06-04, 12:39 PM	I have just had an idea.... The rings are dragon shards right? And Tiamat is clearly visable sometimes right? So how about if there are two rings...perhaps one is metallic and one is chromatic coloured. One of the rings is called Bahamut, the other Tiamat. This would make sense, because on cloudy nights the rings wont be very visible. Tiamat could be visible while Bahamut is not if the rings are perpendicular to each other, creating a sort of + sign around the planet.Clever! That totally makes sense. I don't know if it's true, but it's a stellar guess.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 05-06-04, 05:02 PM	I had another theory regarding Tiamat....but I have forgotten it...hmm... Oh yes now I remeber! What if Tiamat is the name of Eberron's version of the Aurora Borealis? They would certainly not be visible all the time, and only in certain places in Eberron. There will probably be shrines to the lights where they are visible, which could be what that structure is in the Across Eberron booklet.
Brastan 05-06-04, 05:33 PM	For all I learn about this world I'm still shocked. Rings, colored lights in the sky, Tiamat. Maybe it has something to do with the angles of the ring(s) maybe at cretin positions light is reflected differently giving it different hews. Then at some point all of the chromic colors are visible. What if there is a regular cycle. It would make great timekeeper, not just a good compass. :OMG!
The White Sorcerer 05-06-04, 06:46 PM	Originally posted by JohnnyONeal The night sky of Eberron must beautiful. All of a sudden, I want to play an Eberron game with a first-person perspective, just so I can look up at it. I most surely agree. I want to go and live in Eberron. I want to lie on the deck of an airship and simply gaze at the night sky. :cloud9: Now where did I put the scroll with that experimental slide between shadows spell*... *An experimental spell for traveling between cosmologies through the Plane of Shadow.
JohnnyONeal 05-06-04, 07:10 PM	What if Tiamat is the name of Eberron's version of the Aurora Borealis? They would certainly not be visible all the time, and only in certain places in Eberron. There will probably be shrines to the lights where they are visible, which could be what that structure is in the Across Eberron booklet.That's another neat idea. Though the structure in across Eberron is specifically labeled an Eldeen starmap, which suggests that Tiamat may simply be -- as previously suggested by stone_dog -- the name of a certain star or constellation.
Harmony's Sorrow 05-06-04, 07:11 PM	Holy magical asteroid belts that's cool!
LordofIllusions 05-06-04, 07:28 PM	Originally posted by Takasi Too bad D&D Online is over a year away. :( And I am thankful for that. They should extend the wait(For this video game) time to two years. This is DnD not X-Box. ~~~
Steven Snyder 05-06-04, 08:38 PM	What is known Dragon Shards are chunks of celestial bodies that fall to earth. The shards contain great magical power. Tiamat is a Dragon Tiamat may be viewed when you are looking at Celestial bodies in an observatory. The Greek Gods were celestial bodies but also existed on earth. Speculation Tiamat may be a dual-natured entity, being a celestial body but also existing as an Avatar on the surface of Eberron. Other dragons my have a similar nature. The conflict between dragons on Eberron may have repercussions on the Celestial scale. The Celestial Body that represents a particular dragon may shatter if that dragon's avatar on Eberron is slain. Some of the pieces of that celestial body may fall on Eberron, carrying a fraction of the vast power that the dragon had. Some mortal organizations on Eberron are allied with a particular dragon and the members bear a gift from their patron, in the form of dragonmarks.
Singing Urgosh 05-06-04, 10:08 PM	Ok Dogg you had to start it didn't you? Taking something cool and as yet unexplained and throwing down the theory gauntlet, well here is my attempt to rationalise and expand upon the Rings of Ebberon (RoE): Ebberon is surrounded by rings made up of shed dragon scales, ectoplasm and 'pure' magic particles that shimmer like diamonds yet are completely untouchable. These rings (yes there are multiple) circle the world at approximately 45 degrees off the equator ( like / ) in a semi-orbital atmosphere. However, the rings also rotate around Ebberon, or at least seem to as they are fixed in one orbit around the planet and therefore never actually change their position. this means that time and direction can easily be obtained by looking up at the rings and noting their position (i.e. at 6am they are in the left field but by 6pm they are over the right). During the day the rings are visible a multicoloured band visibly stretching away from the surface of Ebberon as the inhabitants see the underside or topside of the rings, even if directly below them. Although only the first 6 are visible during the day. The rings themselves are representative of the various 'elemental building blocks' that are found in the D&D universe, these being in order fom inner to outer: Earth (ochre), Water (blue), Fire (red), Acid (green), Sonic (yellow), Air (white) Ectoplasm (translucent pink) Magic (fine silver/gold shimmer). As stated earlier, the first 6 rings are comprised of scales shed from the great world wyrm after he took up refuge in his own demiplane but before he started gathering ectoplasm and magic unto himself to create the 'world' of Ebberon around himself. The reason the scales represent all the elements is that the World Wyrm ‘Ebberon” is actually the offspring of a Bahamut and Tiamut mating (strange as that may seem) although he himself is a Crystal Dragon and neutral in respects to good/evil. It also explains why his scales fall to or rise up through the earth in the form of ‘shards’ which can be used like cognizance crystals (aka capacitors) to power much of the technology in the world and to create devastating weapons and very stout armour. This idea is getting really long so I will sign off on it for now. Stay sane
Masterful_Norg 05-06-04, 11:46 PM	Steve Snyder, WilliamPall, The earth's moon is the largest compared to the planet that it orbits. The big whack theory states that the earth was once twice its current size until struck by a large slow moving body on a retrograde, eliptical and inclined orbit. Half of the earth was shorn off and distributed as the asteroid belt, the earth was knocked into a new position around the sun, given a wobbly axis, and the big dent began to reform becoming the pacific ocean with the continental plates drifting into it from all around to equally redistribute the earth's mass. I personally think that the ring will look silver at night, much like the moon, and colorful in the day until the sun goes behind it creating a less shadowy eclipse. Perhaps when the ring eclipse looms over head the borders between the shadow realm and this one weaken.
crazysamaritan 05-07-04, 12:33 AM	Originally posted by Singing Urgosh However, the rings also rotate around Ebberon, or at least seem to as they are fixed in one orbit around the planet and therefore never actually change their position. this means that time and direction can easily be obtained by looking up at the rings and noting their position (i.e. at 6am they are in the left field but by 6pm they are over the right). . . . Stay sane Okay, "never change their position" from who's perspective? stay sane? Too late...
Stormtalon 05-07-04, 01:14 AM	Hmmm, maybe the rings could also be a gigantic planar orrery set in motion around the world, to warn of dangerous conjunctions. A certain change in the rings could herald the approach of Xoriat, perhaps. Stormtalon
Steven Snyder 05-07-04, 10:03 AM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg Steve Snyder, WilliamPall, The earth's moon is the largest compared to the planet that it orbits. Really? Earth - 5.972E+24 Moon - 7.4E+22 Pluto - 1.25E+22 Charon - 1.62E+21 The Earth is 80 times more massive than our moon. Pluto is only 7 times as massive as it's moon. Don't you have something more important to do than try and correct me on Astronomy on the Eberron website? The big whack theory states that the earth was once twice its current size until struck by a large slow moving body on a retrograde, eliptical and inclined orbit. Half of the earth was shorn off and distributed as the asteroid belt, the earth was knocked into a new position around the sun, given a wobbly axis, and the big dent began to reform becoming the pacific ocean with the continental plates drifting into it from all around to equally redistribute the earth's mass. 'An Asteroid Belt' that formed into the moon, not 'The Asteroid Belt' that we know and love today. On the topic of moons...does Eberron have them? [/QUOTE]
TwinBahamut 05-07-04, 10:54 AM	My major point was that the tides are caused because the moon is massive, and that rings wouldn't cause such an effect. I really don't care that much about specific numbers of masses. But... Isn't it hypocritical to say "Don't you have better things to do than try to correct me on Astronomy on the Eberron website?" when that is exactly what you are doing yourself?
Steven Snyder 05-07-04, 11:09 AM	Originally posted by TwinBahamut But... Isn't it hypocritical to say "Don't you have better things to do than try to correct me on Astronomy on the Eberron website?" when that is exactly what you are doing yourself? No, because right now I DON'T have anything better to do than correct somebody on Astronomy on this forum.
TwinBahamut 05-07-04, 01:21 PM	:rofl: Thats understandable. Anyways, thanks for poiting out some of those numbers. I never knew Ganymede was twice the size of our moon, or that Pluto and charon combined were smaller than our moon.
Steven Snyder 05-07-04, 01:45 PM	Originally posted by TwinBahamut :rofl: Thats understandable. Anyways, thanks for poiting out some of those numbers. I never knew Ganymede was twice the size of our moon, or that Pluto and charon combined were smaller than our moon. Not a problem, not like I am an expert in astronomy, but I knew a couple of things. But I really can't say what it would be like to live on a planet with a ring around it. I think it would be something I would like to see, but I just can't imagine looking at the night sky and seeing it there. Just another bit to the Eberron campaign setting, things that set it apart and make it unique.
Hardhead 05-07-04, 08:41 PM	As another said, Charon is the largest moon in ratio to a planet. But, in all likelihood, Pluto's days as a planet are numbered. As we find more and more KBOs (Kupier Belt Objects) and "planetoids" in the Oort cloud, it's pretty clear that Pluto doesn't really deserve planet-hood, unless you want to add Quoar, Sedna, 2004 DW, Ixion, Varuna, and probably a lot more undiscovered planet-like objects to the list. The Earth-Moon configuration is still a big oddball in the solar system. The moon is massive compared to the Earth. It's far more impressive than Charon, considering how small both it and Pluto are. Incidently, I can't imagine how a planet Earth's size would aquire multiple moon-sized moons. We had something about the size of Mars crash into the Earth to get our moon. You'd need some incredibly weird circumstances to get multiple Moon-sized moons. Of course, this is fantasy, after all. :)
stone_dog 05-07-04, 09:45 PM	Originally posted by Hardhead Incidently, I can't imagine how a planet Earth's size would aquire multiple moon-sized moons. We had something about the size of Mars crash into the Earth to get our moon. You'd need some incredibly weird circumstances to get multiple Moon-sized moons. Of course, this is fantasy, after all. :) Yeah, you better put that last part in there... bringing logic and science into a D&D game... what is wrong with you people? ;)
WilliamPall 05-07-04, 10:04 PM	Originally posted by stone_dog ... what is wrong with you people? ;) Well . . . where do you expect us to vent all our excess energies . . the Crazy Eberron Theories Forum isn't up yet.
Masterful_Norg 05-07-04, 10:10 PM	Thank you Hardhead. That is the very reason I was not considering Pluto and Charon. Steven Snyder, Same here. What else is there, but to quible over astronomy, on a tuesday night? I am actually refering to a different theory. This is not the theory in which a Mars sized object 'directly' impacts earth and spews off the moon. Chondrite material all over Earth would be warped by the immense heat generated in the event of such a collision and no warping is evident. I'm talking about the theory in which Earth was once twice its current size with the moon already in its possesion. It suggests that a slow moving planet 4 to 5 times the size of Earth struck and cleaved off a portion. The earth's size was reduced which explains the strange Earth to moon ratio and the origin of the asteroid belt. This planet is probably still around today, travelling in a large retrograde, eliptical, and inclined orbit around the sun. Just as perturbations in Neptune's orbit first led scientists to consider the existance of Pluto so do purterbations in Pluto's orbit lead scientists to believe in the existance of Nibiru.
Hardhead 05-08-04, 12:24 AM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg Thank you Hardhead. That is the very reason I was not considering Pluto and Charon. Steven Snyder, Same here. What else is there, but to quible over astronomy, on a tuesday night? I am actually refering to a different theory. This is not the theory in which a Mars sized object 'directly' impacts earth and spews off the moon. Chondrite material all over Earth would be warped by the immense heat generated in the event of such a collision and no warping is evident. The Mars-sized body would have impacted when the planets were still forming. Earth was still settling at the time, so had plenty of time to smooth any "warping" out. I'm talking about the theory in which Earth was once twice its current size with the moon already in its possesion. It suggests that a slow moving planet 4 to 5 times the size of Earth struck and cleaved off a portion. The earth's size was reduced which explains the strange Earth to moon ratio and the origin of the asteroid belt. This planet is probably still around today, travelling in a large retrograde, eliptical, and inclined orbit around the sun. Just as perturbations in Neptune's orbit first led scientists to consider the existance of Pluto so do purterbations in Pluto's orbit lead scientists to believe in the existance of Nibiru. The Mars-sized-body-hitting-Earth theory is by far the most widely accepted. Recent computer models have bolstered it significantly. The Moon rocks brought back by the Apollo missions bolster it as well. The Moon is somewhat Earth-like, but different enough that it could be made of two portions (the remains of the Mars-sized object and Earth debris). The theory you mention hasn't been really seriously considered for a long time. From what we know of solar system formation, there's really no way that a large planet could form in a retrograde orbit. Additionally, it fails to explain the appearance of certain elements on the moon that aren't on Earth (if they both fromed together, as in the theory you mention, they should have virtually identical elemental compositions).
crazysamaritan 05-08-04, 12:37 AM	Issac Asimov has his own theory about moons. He suggests that we have a double planet system going on here. An online description can be found here. (http://www.jmp.com/news/jmpercable/05_fall1997/just_mooning_around.html) He suggests we were two planets that formed too close to each other.
Masterful_Norg 05-08-04, 04:10 AM	The large body of which I spoke is presumed not to have formed in this planetary system, but to have travelled from another. Considering that some of the oldest planetary systems are 10 billion years old, its not impossible for a large object to travel many light years within the space of a few billion years to a 5 billion year old system like this one. Impact with a Mars sized object, even during the period in which the earth had yet to cool down, would still generate a lasting source of heat singling Earth out among the other planets. In order for the Mars sized object to have generated the energy required to hurl some of earth's mass into space, the rate of speed at which the object would have been travelling would need to be tremendous. It is unlikely for an object of that size to reach that speed. There is evidense of a sheering having occured, in the crust of the Pacific ocean floor and the continental crusts. The continental crusts are 4.6 billion years old and the Pacific ocean crust is 3.6 billion years old. Remember that the plates are moving into the Pacific and not out, with a few exceptions such as the Juan de Fuca.
Hardhead 05-08-04, 10:26 AM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg The large body of which I spoke is presumed not to have formed in this planetary system, but to have travelled from another. Considering that some of the oldest planetary systems are 10 billion years old, its not impossible for a large object to travel many light years within the space of a few billion years to a 5 billion year old system like this one. Impact with a Mars sized object, even during the period in which the earth had yet to cool down, would still generate a lasting source of heat singling Earth out among the other planets. In order for the Mars sized object to have generated the energy required to hurl some of earth's mass into space, the rate of speed at which the object would have been travelling would need to be tremendous. It is unlikely for an object of that size to reach that speed. There is evidense of a sheering having occured, in the crust of the Pacific ocean floor and the continental crusts. The continental crusts are 4.6 billion years old and the Pacific ocean crust is 3.6 billion years old. Remember that the plates are moving into the Pacific and not out, with a few exceptions such as the Juan de Fuca. I'm not an expert. I'm just quoting widely held scientific opinion.
Masterful_Norg 05-08-04, 06:15 PM	Unfortunately that once 'widely' held oppinion is out of date. "The Big Whack" theory or Collision-Ejection theory which you were refering to came about in 1984. It has less flaws than the coaccretion and fission theories, but it doesn't agree with evidence gathered since 1984. This thread has gotten a little off track so let's try to keep any further debate concerning the theories concerning Earth and the moon to private messages. I still love the image of looking up to see a silver ribbon stretch across the night sky! :cloud9:
Brastan 05-08-04, 09:10 PM	Hay Stone_Dog. After reading "The entire Silmarillion in 1000 words" I was struck by and idea. Could this be done in Eberron, what with the the Dragon Shards. I could easily see it as something crazy for higher level PC to go do. King: Get me Shinnies. Much money PCs: Okay. Need Airship. Artificer: Need Air Elemental PCs: Well then. Need portal. Wizard: Need Kings daughter. PCs: Grar Wizard: Eek! Here. *portal opens* Elemental: Grar PCs: Eek! Elemental: *rampage* King: Kill Elemental, or pay for damage. PCs: Aw. No like. etc. I know this has little to do with the actual rings around Eberron but I though I was funny at the time.
stone_dog 05-08-04, 10:03 PM	Great. Now my co-workers want to know what I am laughing at. Thanks for blowing my geek cover.
crazysamaritan 05-08-04, 10:45 PM	Originally posted by stone_dog Great. Now my co-workers want to know what I am laughing at. Thanks for blowing my geek cover. :rolleyes: Some times I wish there was a warning label on people's posts. OnT; Will the rings all be the same direction? (i.e. perpendicular to the equador or parallel?) No one seems clear on that point. Also, will some1 please answer my original question?
Masterful_Norg 05-09-04, 09:14 PM	In a world where the laws of physics apply the rings will always, always, always lie perpendicular to the axel on which the earth spins, always.
WilliamPall 05-09-04, 11:28 PM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg In a world where the laws of physics apply the rings will always, always, always lie perpendicular to the axel on which the earth spins, always. But thats' the great thing about fantasy worlds. the Laws of physic's can be thrown out for creative liscense.
Masterful_Norg 05-09-04, 11:56 PM	Precisely.
The White Sorcerer 05-10-04, 03:01 AM	Originally posted by Masterful_Norg I still love the image of looking up to see a silver ribbon stretch across the night sky! :cloud9: Tie a silver ribbon 'round the ol' Eberron... Ahem. Excuse me. :embarrass
Xaxor 05-11-04, 09:34 PM	First the new Zelda game, now a piece of information like this? Wow. And to think E3 has three whole days left! But that's getting off topic. Hmm... sort of crazy theory. The ring hasn't always been there. It was formed when Eberron's moon, or at least one of it's moons, was destroyed in the same event that created the Mournlands. There has to be something really special about Dragonshards. I don't think every meteorite is a Dragonshard. There may be some process that creates them, or a single location they come from.
crazysamaritan 05-13-04, 08:50 AM	So no one knows the direction the rings are (n/s, e/w, sw/ne) Or the direction they rotate around the planet (subjectivly) ARRRGH!! It's only May 13th!!! Hurry up and arrive already!
DSPaul 05-13-04, 02:17 PM	The article in Dungeon #320 talks about the ring a bit. It's called the Ring of Siberys, and it's the source of one type of dragonshards. The article mentions that Siberys shards usually fall near the equator, so presumably it is perpendicular to Eberron's axis. (Not to mention Khyber's... heh heh heh....)
ieattrollsforbreakfast 05-18-04, 07:09 AM	I thought this might interest some people. I have found an artists impression of what it would be like to look up on Saturn's rings from its surface, so this could be what the Ring of Syberis looks like from Eberron: http://www.smbsd.k12.ca.us/elcamino/science/laurie/Curriculumprojects/BTC%20Project%20Portfolio/Resources/Astronomy03StudentPages%20copy/Period4Astronomy03/BelowSaturnsRings.jpg
WilliamPall 05-18-04, 11:18 AM	I know this is slightly off topic (notihing to do with the rings), but it's still about the sky of Eberron . . . Have we heard anything one way or another in regards to Eberron having a moon(s)? Just off the top of my head I'd say that I can't think of anything that would say definately one way or another, except for the fact that there are lycanathropes, and lunar cycle's have always been associated with the Were-Creatures.