Eberron.....or not???? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Eberron.....or not???? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Naicin
02-24-05, 09:25 PM For some reason with Eberron I really like it for a day and then the next im questioning it, I dont know why.
Lord Psynister
02-24-05, 11:00 PM That's probably because it's still relatively new. You might try to see if you can set aside a whole day for nothing but Eberron play. You'll probably need to stop a time or two to get something to eat and whatnot, but you should be able to get an idea of how much you really do (dis)like it. *shrugs*
zambuka
02-24-05, 11:06 PM For me it is some of the demographic inconsistencies that make me occasionaly question the setting.

My biggest gripe is Karrnath. They have a population of a bit over 2 million, that however is not the issue. The text states that Karrnath's farmlands cannot support its population and so they need to import food.
Lets compare it to england and wales in the 17th century. The population was around 6 million at that point on a mass of land less than a quarter the size of Karrnath. Sure the English imported food, mostly exotics and luxuries, but for the most part they didn't have much trouble at all supporting their population. Certainly people went hungry, but this was mainly because of the cost of getting food into the big cities and the massive wealth differences, not a lack of available food. So if Karrnath has to import food then they either do not have enough farmers or their usable farmland is very limited. But accoring to the ESB this is not the case, it claims Beyond the metropolitan centers, a rural sensibility holds sway. Here, farms and ranches of all descriptions stretch out across the fertile fields and plains.

The total (sentient and civilised) population of Khorvaire is not much more that mid 19th century england and considerably less that the total population of western europe (England, france Germany, Portugal, Spain etc) in the 16th or 17th century. Yet it occupies a much much greater landmass and is supposedly a much more civilised and healthy place to live.

The populaton centers are really REALLY spread out, much too far to really believe an empire lasting a thousand years could be supported. This can kind of be justified by saying that the Last War seriously decimated the population of the 5 kingdoms. But if so then where are all the abandoned cities?

The whole timeline itself is truly epic but there is no real sense of scale.

Basically the biggest niggles for me at times are the poorly thought out demographics and timeline scale.

But I do so like Eberron regardless of these little fluff issues.
Taurren
02-24-05, 11:11 PM Naicin, I know how you feel.

Eberron has sat on my bookshelf since its release. I've read most of it at least once, but havent had the drive to start a game.

Until about 2 weeks ago. I decided that after playing FR for a few years, that I needed to try something just a little bit different, yet something that my players (who might not have the book) would be able to get their minds around.

Eberron became that setting.

Characters are being finalized tomorrow. Game starts next week. I'm excited and using ALL the fluff that I can find to help my players get into the Eberron mindframe.

Eberron is familiar enough to be "hoh-hum" ... yet different enough to generate a "kewl idea" reaction every now and then. I'm putting my own twist to the setting and going to jump into it with both feet.

There is alot to learn anew, and alot to unlearn ... <shrug> we'll see what happens.
(Psi)SeveredHead
02-24-05, 11:53 PM Zambuka, you're not the first to notice this. However, I think Keith Baker isn't a historical economist. (The numbers, seriously, were probably just made up.)

IMO bits of flavor info such as "who is the king, and what color tabards do his guards wear" are more important than that kind of info.

But, maybe for you it's not.
zambuka
02-25-05, 12:11 AM I realise the numbers were made up , and that's the whole point.

The information about who is king and what colour his undies are is more important than whether the country can easily support 2.5 million people without having to import food stuffs.

The point of the post was to just point out one of the little things that makes me doubt the setting a little, the parent post commented about how he liked the setting one day and questioned it the next, this is just my reasons for similar feelings.

It is one of the little things that wouldn't have used more space in the book but would have added a little bit more to the setting and made the vast size of the 5 Nations and the now defunct Empire that little bit more believable. As such, it is of some importance.

I tend to ignore his figures anyway and use my own.

For example, the size of Sharn, both area and height, and its history and descriptions suggest a population much larger than the population presented (I live in Canberra, it has a population around 300,000 so I do have a pretty good idea of how much space that many people would use). So I have just bumped the population to about a half a million rather than the 200 thousand presented.
Altaris
02-25-05, 09:38 AM I tend to ignore his figures anyway and use my own.

For example, the size of Sharn, both area and height, and its history and descriptions suggest a population much larger than the population presented (I live in Canberra, it has a population around 300,000 so I do have a pretty good idea of how much space that many people would use). So I have just bumped the population to about a half a million rather than the 200 thousand presented.

Don't worry, most of us do the same. Sharn, I think, is the most egregious example of too much space vs not enough denizens. I attribute some of that to the disparity in wealth and available living space. Higher up, you have more room for less people. Lower down, you have less room for more people.

As for farmlands, I surmise that a more than half of Khorvaire's farms were razed at least once during the Last War. Some places saw what could be considered to be constant battle, like Karnnath, Cyre and northern Breland.

Anyway, don't just look at the numbers. Keep the theme and history in mind too. Sure, Karnnath has 2 million people and a lot of land to farm. But most of those farms are probably defunct, too small to support the cities, and I'm sure many have been abandonded for the relative safety of the cities.
Okami
02-25-05, 09:52 AM If you would like to justify the inadequate numbers it can always be accounted to the difficulty in counting heads in a post war society. Once you factor in the shadier element of Eberron that are less likely to keep any sort of recordable profile the numbers become slightly more acceptable. The numbers of assumed dead in combat must have a great amount of pull in the numbers as well.

Personally I dont rely on the population count as much as the demographic ratio and the tone of the area in question. Unless your group is on a mission to do census work it should not be as big of a headache as it seems. As far as the timeline goes what improvements would you like to see? In my game the CS timeline is more of a springboard and and afterthought so I am just curious to see what others think.
Naicin
02-25-05, 10:34 AM i dont know its because i like Eberron and Dragonlance both alot, and I keep thinkin about the cool things in each of them that the other one dosent have and it causes me to constantly switch back and forth between them.
ekomega
02-25-05, 02:34 PM Even though the numbers are low, there can be some explanations. Razing farms during the war is one that I like a lot. Also, many of the farmers might only be growing what they need to survive, and not sending any to markets.

Plus, if you were a farmer and there were dire gophers and ankhegs and crazy demons living in the soil waiting to rend you, how much land would you be willing to till every season?

The numbers probably still don't make sense, but you can come up with fantastic reasons why since this is DnD.

I've found Eberron to be my favorite CS since I got the book, and I doubt I will play another CS that already exists. I used to play exclusively FR, but there is so much background and so much information that you have to be ahold of all the time that it's hard to deal with sometimes. And I always felt that I was playing someone else's personal game that just happened to catch on and sell really well. With Eberron, some guy was paid to come up with something, and it doesn't seem like he has a personal interest in making the world his own. Keith thinks it up and creates it, but there's no 40th level Keith NPC running around that you know was his guy when he originally played Eberron. Not like Ed Greenwood living out his magic and sexual fantasies through Elminster in many books and roleplaying escapades.

The feel of the setting is also very different, and that takes some getting used to. I like darker stuff, and I like the feel of Eberron.

Anyway, That's why I like Eberron.
deClench
02-25-05, 06:36 PM IMO this is a great setting.

I can't really argue with the numbers in question (i.e. how many people were in England centuries ago or how much food 2.5 million people can eat) because I can neither confirm nor deny their accuracy. Does it matter? Assuming those numbers are correct, is a historically accurate setting what you require? If you have the information to ID those anomalies, then you have the information to make those adjustments in your own campaign. The ECS is what it should be: a good framework.

Besides, there just aren't enough numbers to answer the question. It's oversimplifying to compare with a historical source without all of the numbers. How much food do 2.5 million people eat? Saying that "farms and ranches of all descriptions stretch out across the fertile fields and plains" does not quantify how much food is produced. And many have already mentioned the war and it's likely effects on the area.

I think the setting is simply fantastic and only hope that everyone has the chance to give it a try because I would hate to see the product line come to an end. Cheers and good gaming.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Naicin 02-24-05, 09:25 PM	For some reason with Eberron I really like it for a day and then the next im questioning it, I dont know why.
Lord Psynister 02-24-05, 11:00 PM	That's probably because it's still relatively new. You might try to see if you can set aside a whole day for nothing but Eberron play. You'll probably need to stop a time or two to get something to eat and whatnot, but you should be able to get an idea of how much you really do (dis)like it. shrugs
zambuka 02-24-05, 11:06 PM	For me it is some of the demographic inconsistencies that make me occasionaly question the setting. My biggest gripe is Karrnath. They have a population of a bit over 2 million, that however is not the issue. The text states that Karrnath's farmlands cannot support its population and so they need to import food. Lets compare it to england and wales in the 17th century. The population was around 6 million at that point on a mass of land less than a quarter the size of Karrnath. Sure the English imported food, mostly exotics and luxuries, but for the most part they didn't have much trouble at all supporting their population. Certainly people went hungry, but this was mainly because of the cost of getting food into the big cities and the massive wealth differences, not a lack of available food. So if Karrnath has to import food then they either do not have enough farmers or their usable farmland is very limited. But accoring to the ESB this is not the case, it claims Beyond the metropolitan centers, a rural sensibility holds sway. Here, farms and ranches of all descriptions stretch out across the fertile fields and plains. The total (sentient and civilised) population of Khorvaire is not much more that mid 19th century england and considerably less that the total population of western europe (England, france Germany, Portugal, Spain etc) in the 16th or 17th century. Yet it occupies a much much greater landmass and is supposedly a much more civilised and healthy place to live. The populaton centers are really REALLY spread out, much too far to really believe an empire lasting a thousand years could be supported. This can kind of be justified by saying that the Last War seriously decimated the population of the 5 kingdoms. But if so then where are all the abandoned cities? The whole timeline itself is truly epic but there is no real sense of scale. Basically the biggest niggles for me at times are the poorly thought out demographics and timeline scale. But I do so like Eberron regardless of these little fluff issues.
Taurren 02-24-05, 11:11 PM	Naicin, I know how you feel. Eberron has sat on my bookshelf since its release. I've read most of it at least once, but havent had the drive to start a game. Until about 2 weeks ago. I decided that after playing FR for a few years, that I needed to try something just a little bit different, yet something that my players (who might not have the book) would be able to get their minds around. Eberron became that setting. Characters are being finalized tomorrow. Game starts next week. I'm excited and using ALL the fluff that I can find to help my players get into the Eberron mindframe. Eberron is familiar enough to be "hoh-hum" ... yet different enough to generate a "kewl idea" reaction every now and then. I'm putting my own twist to the setting and going to jump into it with both feet. There is alot to learn anew, and alot to unlearn ... <shrug> we'll see what happens.
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-24-05, 11:53 PM	Zambuka, you're not the first to notice this. However, I think Keith Baker isn't a historical economist. (The numbers, seriously, were probably just made up.) IMO bits of flavor info such as "who is the king, and what color tabards do his guards wear" are more important than that kind of info. But, maybe for you it's not.
zambuka 02-25-05, 12:11 AM	I realise the numbers were made up , and that's the whole point. The information about who is king and what colour his undies are is more important than whether the country can easily support 2.5 million people without having to import food stuffs. The point of the post was to just point out one of the little things that makes me doubt the setting a little, the parent post commented about how he liked the setting one day and questioned it the next, this is just my reasons for similar feelings. It is one of the little things that wouldn't have used more space in the book but would have added a little bit more to the setting and made the vast size of the 5 Nations and the now defunct Empire that little bit more believable. As such, it is of some importance. I tend to ignore his figures anyway and use my own. For example, the size of Sharn, both area and height, and its history and descriptions suggest a population much larger than the population presented (I live in Canberra, it has a population around 300,000 so I do have a pretty good idea of how much space that many people would use). So I have just bumped the population to about a half a million rather than the 200 thousand presented.
Altaris 02-25-05, 09:38 AM	I tend to ignore his figures anyway and use my own. For example, the size of Sharn, both area and height, and its history and descriptions suggest a population much larger than the population presented (I live in Canberra, it has a population around 300,000 so I do have a pretty good idea of how much space that many people would use). So I have just bumped the population to about a half a million rather than the 200 thousand presented. Don't worry, most of us do the same. Sharn, I think, is the most egregious example of too much space vs not enough denizens. I attribute some of that to the disparity in wealth and available living space. Higher up, you have more room for less people. Lower down, you have less room for more people. As for farmlands, I surmise that a more than half of Khorvaire's farms were razed at least once during the Last War. Some places saw what could be considered to be constant battle, like Karnnath, Cyre and northern Breland. Anyway, don't just look at the numbers. Keep the theme and history in mind too. Sure, Karnnath has 2 million people and a lot of land to farm. But most of those farms are probably defunct, too small to support the cities, and I'm sure many have been abandonded for the relative safety of the cities.
Okami 02-25-05, 09:52 AM	If you would like to justify the inadequate numbers it can always be accounted to the difficulty in counting heads in a post war society. Once you factor in the shadier element of Eberron that are less likely to keep any sort of recordable profile the numbers become slightly more acceptable. The numbers of assumed dead in combat must have a great amount of pull in the numbers as well. Personally I dont rely on the population count as much as the demographic ratio and the tone of the area in question. Unless your group is on a mission to do census work it should not be as big of a headache as it seems. As far as the timeline goes what improvements would you like to see? In my game the CS timeline is more of a springboard and and afterthought so I am just curious to see what others think.
Naicin 02-25-05, 10:34 AM	i dont know its because i like Eberron and Dragonlance both alot, and I keep thinkin about the cool things in each of them that the other one dosent have and it causes me to constantly switch back and forth between them.
ekomega 02-25-05, 02:34 PM	Even though the numbers are low, there can be some explanations. Razing farms during the war is one that I like a lot. Also, many of the farmers might only be growing what they need to survive, and not sending any to markets. Plus, if you were a farmer and there were dire gophers and ankhegs and crazy demons living in the soil waiting to rend you, how much land would you be willing to till every season? The numbers probably still don't make sense, but you can come up with fantastic reasons why since this is DnD. I've found Eberron to be my favorite CS since I got the book, and I doubt I will play another CS that already exists. I used to play exclusively FR, but there is so much background and so much information that you have to be ahold of all the time that it's hard to deal with sometimes. And I always felt that I was playing someone else's personal game that just happened to catch on and sell really well. With Eberron, some guy was paid to come up with something, and it doesn't seem like he has a personal interest in making the world his own. Keith thinks it up and creates it, but there's no 40th level Keith NPC running around that you know was his guy when he originally played Eberron. Not like Ed Greenwood living out his magic and sexual fantasies through Elminster in many books and roleplaying escapades. The feel of the setting is also very different, and that takes some getting used to. I like darker stuff, and I like the feel of Eberron. Anyway, That's why I like Eberron.
deClench 02-25-05, 06:36 PM	IMO this is a great setting. I can't really argue with the numbers in question (i.e. how many people were in England centuries ago or how much food 2.5 million people can eat) because I can neither confirm nor deny their accuracy. Does it matter? Assuming those numbers are correct, is a historically accurate setting what you require? If you have the information to ID those anomalies, then you have the information to make those adjustments in your own campaign. The ECS is what it should be: a good framework. Besides, there just aren't enough numbers to answer the question. It's oversimplifying to compare with a historical source without all of the numbers. How much food do 2.5 million people eat? Saying that "farms and ranches of all descriptions stretch out across the fertile fields and plains" does not quantify how much food is produced. And many have already mentioned the war and it's likely effects on the area. I think the setting is simply fantastic and only hope that everyone has the chance to give it a try because I would hate to see the product line come to an end. Cheers and good gaming.