Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 09-26-05, 06:37 PM	I've just recently had a talk with my players, not the ones responsible for the above list of fun and they gave me an interesting couple of quotes I'd like to put up here. "Eberron isn't like Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms. Eberron is a world where adventure isn't necessarily part of the setting itself. It's there because there's a bunch of conspiracies and governments working against each other. It's more like real life than a magical world." -Mike "Eberron is more like a world like Spycraft or even Delta Green. Monsters aren't necessarily crawling through the land and killing people, or at least not more than tigers. It's sort of weird but Eberron's villians are more likely to be pirates, gangsters, and spies than goblins. They might BE pirate goblins but that's different ya know?" -Sarah "I have a hard time picturing the Dark Six as evil gods. I mean, yes, there's the Cult of the Dragon below but in Forgotten Realms there's Bane. He's like Sauron and Mordor. The Dark Six are too removed to be villains themselves." -Mike "I have a harder time getting into the feeling of badassitude because of the fact that the awesomeness inherit to other settings is more muted in Eberron. In Toril, you might be Superman, but here it seems like humans are limited to being more Zorro." -Phillip What do you think of these quotes as they relate to Eberron and do you think they're accurate? In terms of adventure as part of the setting and feel, how do you think Eberron compares to say Greyhawk and Toril (that remain the standard by which D&D fantasy worlds are judged)?
The White Sorcerer 09-26-05, 06:59 PM	Adventure is what defines Eberron. And among all the <5th-level NPCs, a 20th-level character propably feels more like Superman than Zorro.
Charles Phipps 09-26-05, 07:04 PM	Adventure is what defines Eberron. And among all the <5th-level NPCs, a 20th-level character propably feels more like Superman than Zorro. I disagree, at heart Eberron is the one world in D&D where the forces of evil can be beaten in my opinion. The Quori, the Daelkyr, the Rajahs, and the like can all eventually be undone as the Gatekeepers prove and the conspiracies can be crushed. In other worlds, the evil is part of the setting because of Bane and the like. Also, people in Eberron are less likely to be evil for evil's sake and more for money and politics.
Ayers 09-26-05, 08:34 PM	I disagree, at heart Eberron is the one world in D&D where the forces of evil can be beaten in my opinion. The Quori, the Daelkyr, the Rajahs, and the like can all eventually be undone as the Gatekeepers prove and the conspiracies can be crushed. In other worlds, the evil is part of the setting because of Bane and the like. Also, people in Eberron are less likely to be evil for evil's sake and more for money and politics. That's what Eberron is all about. It's about blurred alignments, and not so much the struggle of good and evil. Good and Evil in this setting is more background noise than the actual conflicts of the world. The real conflicts aren't about good and evil, they're just about adventuring. That's what I find so attractive in this setting. I'm personally a little sick of the good and evil thing, that's been played out over and over in campaign settings. I like that Eberron sort of pushes this into the background. Evil can't really be beaten in this setting though, it's one of those things that exists as long as the world does, and is a lot more like our world in this aspect. It's that power and wealth corrupt and most of the people in Eberron are touched in some way by this. Forgotten Realms is all about the ongoing struggle of Good and Evil, in my opinion. It mostly revolves around the forces of good fighting those of evil. I think this makes it harder in some levels for roleplaying, because most things are as they seem.
a_psh 09-26-05, 08:40 PM	Personally, I find it much easier to be badass in Eberron. Yes, you are Zorro and not Superman, but all you need is a level or two in a PC class and a lot of style, and you're badass! Not only is epic-level personal power no longer required, but I find that it's much easier to use wits and words in Eberron than in most settings. The most ridiculously awesome badass PCs I've ever seen have come out of Eberron.
mhacdebhandia 09-26-05, 09:37 PM	In Toril, you might be Superman, but here it seems like humans are limited to being more Zorro. This guy? I don't get his attitude. How is Zorro - nothing more than a skilled, driven, dedicated human - not more of a badass than Superman - a nigh-invulnerable, ultra-powerful, what-me-worry alien?
Charles Phipps 09-26-05, 09:45 PM	This guy? I don't get his attitude. How is Zorro - nothing more than a skilled, driven, dedicated human - not more of a badass than Superman - a nigh-invulnerable, ultra-powerful, what-me-worry alien? I think he's measuring things in terms of raw power and epicness of his adventures. Zorro as a 7th level fighter could very easily be done with his enemies being very corrupt but largely normal humans. I think he's implying that Eberron is a world where humans have somewhat more realistic expectations on what they can accomplish than say in Toril where Netheril exists.
a_psh 09-26-05, 10:48 PM	This guy? I don't get his attitude. How is Zorro - nothing more than a skilled, driven, dedicated human - not more of a badass than Superman - a nigh-invulnerable, ultra-powerful, what-me-worry alien? Definitely. Rapier, black mask, and Latin charm > weird powers, dorky day persona, and briefs worn over tights.
Ravenfeather 09-27-05, 04:36 AM	Well, Eberron holds the foundation for both. There is a lot adventure to be had in the ruins that the war left behind and the uprising factions outside the five nations. And there is a lot of intrigue going on in the status quo between the five nations. I believe one of the most basical design ideas was that it can be either, or even both.
The White Sorcerer 09-27-05, 04:58 AM	I disagree How? You said this, and then continued to write stuff unrelated to my post.
Charles Phipps 09-27-05, 05:04 AM	How? You said this, and then continued to write stuff unrelated to my post. Because adventure isn't what defines Eberron. Duh. I just said why.
Tek 09-27-05, 05:34 AM	How? You said this, and then continued to write stuff unrelated to my post. That's exactly what I was thinking. You disagreed then went on to say stuff like the evils can be undone. I don't see how that is a point towards 'Adventure isn't what defines Eberron.' I think adventurering is a big part of the pulp aspect of Eberron. Rick O'Connell from The Mummy? Adventurer. Indiana Jones? Adventurer. Jack Sparrow? Pirate version of an Adventurer. All of these movies are listed as inspiration for an Eberron campaign. I just think that adventurers are alot different in Eberron, but it doesn't make the setting any less defined by legendary explorers and such. They just don't have to be the cookie cutter 'good vs bad' type heroes anymore, which actually broadens the adventure aspect of the game. Adventuring being the total defining point of Eberron? No, not really. But neither is 'evil isn't evil for evils sake.' I think everything that Eberron combined is what defines the game, not a single aspect of it - including the pulp or the noir.
The White Sorcerer 09-27-05, 05:38 AM	I just said why. Well, I apparently missed it. Please repeat.
Charles Phipps 09-27-05, 05:40 AM	Well, I apparently missed it. Please repeat. Adventure isn't part of Eberron innately. Evil is a societal phenomenon.
The White Sorcerer 09-27-05, 05:43 AM	Adventure isn't part of Eberron innately. Evil is a societal phenomenon. How are these two statements related?
Tek 09-27-05, 05:44 AM	Adventure isn't part of Eberron innately. Evil is a societal phenomenon. Big deal. Adventure might not be a big part of Eberron on a whole "textbook" type look at the setting. Sure, people live their lives and go about day after day not adventuring. I don't know about you, but I don't run games about that. My games feature over the top adventurers doing things for each of their unique goals, and that's what makes it a great game, for me atleast. Over the top action, great characters, and a sense of adventure. Evil's present, yes, but it's not the foundation of my game. It's not what defines my game.
Charles Phipps 09-27-05, 05:50 AM	I think it's a huge difference... By essentially making it a human phenemenon (be that as it may), the adventures take on an entirely different feel from other settings where evil is a literal and supernatural force. I dare you to say thus that Call of Cthulhu and Metal Gear Solid are the same game in this respect (and please no arguements that the Mythos isn't really "evil") Heroes are defined by what evil they oppose.
The White Sorcerer 09-27-05, 05:52 AM	I think it's a huge difference... By essentially making it a human phenemenon (be that as it may), the adventures take on an entirely different feel from other settings where evil is a literal and supernatural force. I dare you to say thus that Call of Cthulhu and Metal Gear Solid are the same game in this respect (and please no arguements that the Mythos isn't really "evil") Heroes are defined by what evil they oppose. What does this have to do with adventure not defining the setting? In fact, what does evil have to do with adventuring?
Eronthar 09-27-05, 05:55 AM	IMHO in Eberron evil is everywhere. You can't beat it like you do in Toril. That's more like comic strips. You can't get rid of evil because there's always bigger one. i.e. you can beat a couple of Boromar thugs but you can't make it come down in one night. Long struggle between evil and good, that's the spirit of Eberron. Not he's evil let's take him out. And in Toril if you see a Cyric cleric you know he's pure evil as well as Torm cleric will be good. But in Eberron that doesn't enough to define a man as evil. Most of the nobles are evil. Why? As usual as always money or power, not for some religious motto or carnage. That's what makes the games in Eberron fun.
The White Sorcerer 09-27-05, 06:58 PM	Eberron is a world where adventure isn't necessarily part of the setting itself. Yup. Xen'drik and all the other cool places that just wait to be adventured in were put in just for show. In Toril, you might be Superman, but here it seems like humans are limited to being more Zorro. Toril "Hey look, I can cast meteor strike!" "That's great, kid, run along now while I cast Tolodine's killing wind." Eberron "Hey look, I can cast meteor strike!" "Have mercy upon my soul, oh mighty god of destruction and doom!" The difference: On Toril, being Superman isn't a big deal. On Eberron, being Zorro is a huge.
Raziel_Brokodar 09-27-05, 07:18 PM	It's both, a world of adventure and conspiracy. It's a movie-like adventure where the villians plot against you every step of the way. It's crawling through a cob web filled crypt to find an artifact, and when you're in the final chamber, you're there just in time to meet up with the villians (Emerald Claw or Cult of the Dragon Below) who've gotten there first. It's also a place where your allies or patron in this case can possibly screw you over to get higher standing in their house. (that's my view, haven't read everyone elses ranting) :P
The White Sorcerer 09-27-05, 07:21 PM	It's both, a world of adventure and conspiracy. Agreed.
Lup1n3 09-27-05, 07:39 PM	From the Oxford English Dictionary. 'to adventure' (v.) I. To commit to chance. 1. trans. To take the chance of; to commit to fortune; to undertake a thing of doubtful issue; to try, to chance, to venture upon. 2. To risk the loss of, to risk, stake; to imperil, or expose (to danger). 3. refl. To risk oneself; to venture. 4. intr. (by omission of refl. pron.) To risk oneself, to venture, to dare to come or go (in, into, on, upon any place). fig. To venture (on, upon a course or action), to dare to undertake. to adventure at (obs. rare): to dare to attack. 5. a. intr. (with inf.) To dare, to run the risk, make the experiment; to go so far as, to venture. b. trans. To venture to say or utter. II. To be as a chance, or come as a chance. 6. intr. To come by chance, happen, chance, befall. Usually impers. Obs. As we can see, there is something for everybody in adventure, so I am going to have to say the heart and soul of Eberron is founded solely in adventure, whether it be the sights one sees in a normal day of life, plot and intrigue, a classical dungeon crawl, or any other multitude of things. It all boils down to perspective, but semantically, everything, everyday, everywhere is an adventure.
taski 09-27-05, 08:43 PM	By essentially making it a human phenemenon (be that as it may), the adventures take on an entirely different feel from other settings where evil is a literal and supernatural force. There are a lot of evil beings in Eberron who are literal and supernatural forces. The Rajahs, Quori, and Daelkyr are all really, really, really evil and really, really, really inhuman. How difficult they are to beat is up to the DM. I personally make them very difficult. That the dragons and coatls could only bind the Rajahs, not destroy them, speaks for their power. The Gatekeepers didn't destroy Xoriat, only kept its forces at bay (and those forces are slipping in again). The Quori are running an entire continent! No on has stopped them! In short, there are super villians who can crush Zorro and Superman with a single yawn. The PCs have to be tougher and smarter just to survive.
DoveArrow 09-27-05, 08:57 PM	To me, the biggest difference between Eberron and Forgotten Realms is the fact that the adventures are primarily focused on present day events. For example, the characters are typically dealing with modern day enemies like the Aurum, the Dreaming Dark, the Boromar Clan, and the Cult of the Dragon Below. These are all present day groups that all have agendas which involve current events in the world. Adventure in the Forgotten Realms, on the other hand, is primarily focused on events that have happened in the past, with the characters searching for ancient artifacts, and preventing the rise of powerful, ancient creatures. For me, more than anything else, that is the most significant difference between Eberron and Forgotten Realms. That and warforged. :P
(Psi)SeveredHead 09-27-05, 09:37 PM	The Dark Six are too removed to be villains Good. I don't want the Dark Six to dictate what happens in Eberron, as it is not a deity-centric setting. It is up to their agents, using their own intelligence, skills, abilities and granted powers to do evil - the same way players can use them to do good (we hope).
a_psh 09-28-05, 01:11 AM	The Dark Six are too removed to be villains themselves. Yup. But they're not supposed to be villains. They're the Hades and Poseidons and Hecates of the world. There's legitimate reason for well-meaning people to worship or at least placate them. The Blood of Vol and the Cults of the Dragon Below are the Lolths, Vecnas, Tiamats, and Tharizduns of Eberron. The Devourer, Traveler, Fury &c. are the Nerulls, Incabulouses, Telchurs, and Wee Jases - they're powerful evil gods there for flavor and, religiously, as foils and rivals to the Sovereigns. Their religions are not out enslaving the world or trying to destroy it or what have you, any more than the Sovereign Host is out saving it. I'd present a good FR comparison as well, but I don't know the setting well enough.
Charles Phipps 09-28-05, 01:14 AM	My assumption is that the Dark Six are actually the Devils of the world from what I've looked over at their religions. The Traveller being the only one not so treated. I don't think the Blood of Vol is actually an evil religion either. It's just that a lot of evil people worship it.
a_psh 09-28-05, 01:22 AM	My assumption is that the Dark Six are actually the Devils of the world from what I've looked over at their religions. The Traveller being the only one not so treated. Well, as I said, take Incabulous or Nerull. Destroyers. Plague-bringers. Scourge of all life, &c., &c. Yet they're really not campaign villains. They're just... there. Just like the Six.
The White Sorcerer 09-28-05, 03:52 AM	I don't think the Blood of Vol is actually an evil religion either. It's just that a lot of evil people worship it. I think it's the other way around. The Blood is an (lawful) evil religion (it's based on undeath, after all), but a lot of non-evil people practice it.
greatmonkey 09-28-05, 05:47 AM	I think it's the other way around. The Blood is an (lawful) evil religion (it's based on undeath, after all), but a lot of non-evil people practice it. Agreed. And that's pretty much how the ECS explains it too. I really don't see how someone could get that wrong unless they're just not actually reading the material. lol...
Tek 09-28-05, 05:54 AM	I think it's the other way around. The Blood is an (lawful) evil religion (it's based on undeath, after all), but a lot of non-evil people practice it. I agree!
DoveArrow 09-29-05, 10:22 AM	My assumption is that the Dark Six are actually the Devils of the world from what I've looked over at their religions. The Traveller being the only one not so treated. I disagree, but only to be contrary. :P
6FootGnome 09-29-05, 03:58 PM	This is a silly question. Eberron is both or whatever the dm wants it to be
Charles Phipps 09-29-05, 04:24 PM	Agreed. And that's pretty much how the ECS explains it too. I really don't see how someone could get that wrong unless they're just not actually reading the material. lol... And the entirely Lawful Good Kalashatyr follow a Lawful Neutral religion. Keith has gone to great lengths to show that people who follow it aren't evil. So your rebuttal is....wrong
The White Sorcerer 09-29-05, 05:48 PM	Keith has gone to great lengths to show that people who follow it aren't evil. I assume that by "it" you mean the Blood of Vol. Indeed, most of the practicioners are non-evil. However, as it says in the book, the religion itself is lawful evil.
Tek 09-29-05, 07:38 PM	The religion is evil. It says so in the book. Many people who follow it are not. That is the end of it, I would think.
Charles Phipps 09-29-05, 07:53 PM	I assume that by "it" you mean the Blood of Vol. Indeed, most of the practicioners are non-evil. However, as it says in the book, the religion itself is lawful evil. By tendencies, yes. It doesn't really change anything since religions on non-sentient.
Tek 09-29-05, 08:42 PM	On the surface, the religion looks to be non-evil as it doesn't have anything that would make it out to be evil in public. However, it still is the religion of a NE Lich. It says right in the book: "The true followers (as opposed to the common folk who unknowingly help hide the deceptions) revere the ancient lich Vol, self-proclaimed Queen of the Dead. If you look at it from a commoners standpoint, no the religion is not evil. It is simply dedicated to the 'meaning of blood.' From a DM's standpoint, however, the religion is about furthering the goals of the Evil Lich Vol, and does so by tricking followers into THINKING they are following a good or neutral religion. That's pretty evil.
a_psh 09-30-05, 01:11 AM	People of various alignments worship the Blood of Vol. The religion as a divine entity/force/whatever is Lawful Evil. This mostly means that clerics of the Blood of Vol have powerful Lawful Evil auras. (So the religion is, in fact, provably LE, I suppose.)
Tek 09-30-05, 02:01 AM	I think that would pretty much answer it, if we could find the answer. Would clerics had a Evil aura or not? Hmmm. Maybe a question for Keith. Edit: I found the answer in the AKB Archive. Can you give an example of a good cleric worshipping an evil deity? Certainly. One of the fundamental principles of the Blood of Vol is that death is the greatest evil of all -- a curse placed upon mortals by cruel gods (most members of the BoV do believe in the Sovereigns, and hate them). Followers of the Blood of Vol see their religion as a crusade against the greatest enemy of all: death, and the gods that created it. Liches, vampires, and other undead are champions in this battle, and it is the duty of the mortal parishioners to support them, giving blood and doing whatever must be done to aid them in the struggle. So while the Emerald Claw and many of the inner circle of the Blood of Vol are cruel or evil, there are many priests who view their faith as a noble struggle against the greatest evil of all; thus you could certainly have a good-aligned cleric of Vol.