Post/Author/DateTime	Post
burns1gn 11-01-05, 09:48 AM	Greetings fellow roleplayers and welcome to Eberron, a world balanced between peace and war. This campaign is ripe for tales of action and intrigue, placing the characters in the center of a conflict beyond their comprehension. I am looking for 3 to 6 characters. Character selection will NOT be first come first serve, and we will take time to develop characters. The game will have action as well as problem solving so a good mix of characters is recommended. The format will be about one turn recap per week, and I will do all the dice rolling. I am looking for "roleplayers" whose email posts are NOT a one sentence reply. All players are expected to write 2 to 3 paragraphs per post so if you can't meet that schedule please do not bother applying to the game. I anticipate 1 to 2 posts a week from players from Monday to Friday with me providing simple comments during this time and recapping turns or providing new information on Saturday and Sunday. Please refer to the webpage linked at the signature for simple PBEM rules, game background, starting post, and sample characters. If this sounds like a game for you, then send me a character with the following sections: a) appearance, b) background, c) personality. Please make the characters interesting, the strong and silent types just don't cut it in this type of game. I have posted a sample character as a reference on the type of submission I'm looking for. Characters will start at 4th level (32 point buy system for abilities); you may send stats as well or we'll work on that once your character is accepted. Please tell me a bit about yourself and your interest in PBEMs. I will accept character submissions until November 11, 2005 and reply to everyone who has put time and effort into their submittals. -Gary http://personal.cmich.edu/~burns1gn/eberron/shadow_of_flame.html
erbmjw 11-01-05, 10:46 AM	I'll be sending you something soon - but just a minor warning .... I'm a first time PBEM gamer :(
snikt-snikt 11-01-05, 11:36 AM	I have never done a PBEM game. is incarnum an option?
burns1gn 11-01-05, 01:19 PM	For those new to PBEMs I think the PBEM is a great approach, especially if you have time/distance constraints to playing in person. I also think the PBEM approach allows for richer storytelling from both players and DM. I'm honestly not familiar with the incarnum options. Feel free to send me an email with how it would affect your character/game world. I'm more than willing to work with you to pull it off. If I foresee any problems I'll be sure to let you know upfront.
erbmjw 11-05-05, 01:06 PM	Sent in a starter concept Druid/Barbarian- please let me know what you think and then I will flesh out the character.
Majorafire77 11-05-05, 01:28 PM	Isn't PBEM strictly inferior to PBP (http://www.dndonlinegames.com/index.php)? Your game looks interesting, but what advantage do you hope to gain by doing PBEM over PBP?
Fabian 11-05-05, 05:29 PM	One of the main advantages of PBEM over PBP is length (and depth) of posts. A PBP tends to encourage a 'one-line' reply from players since a player will check the boards, find out he's falling behind, and just shoot a simple post. On the other hand, in a PBEM the DM will let you know how long you have for posting by setting the pace of the turn recaps. A turn recap is where the DM will compile all the players' emails into one coherent chapter-like turn. These turns may be read by players and non-players much like a book. By having 48 hours to 96 hours (depending on the frequency of the turn recap, players may put out much richer posts. Another distinct advantage of PBEMs is its manner of resolving conflicting actions. Whereas in a PBP, whatever is posted is usually 'law' (i.e. it's what's happened), in a PBEM, the DM can avoid that by compiling the above mentioned turn recap. Combat, dialogue, and PC-NPC interaction are portrayed easier with a PBEM. This has been my humble experience in playing (and currently hosting) both PBEMs and PBPs. Maybe I'm missing something; would you care to explain why you think PBEMs are 'strictly inferior' to PBPs? Thanks! Fabian Troubled Past - An Eberron PBEM http://www.geocities.com/cfbenave/Eberron/Eberron-Page2.htm Always looking for excellent roleplayers!
Majorafire77 11-05-05, 08:16 PM	The reason that PBEM is imo strictly inferior when compared to PBP is because you can pull off the exact same thing with PBP if you so desired, but you could also do so much more. In addition, PBP doesn't take up space in your inbox, and multiple games can be played in and run by you without having to sign up for a new yahoo account every month. If you simply deleted the posts then that would simply be an alternative drawback compared to PBP. Resolving conflicting actions in PBP is just like doing the same at the table, you talk it out or PM the player and resolve it out-of-game. I can't see how combat, dialogue, or PC-NPC action could be represented better by PBEM at all. With PBP I could get a picture of a map from this site and put in markers representing the characters and post that in the same post as everything else. Alternatively, I can make a grid using code boxes. The turn order can be followed a lot easier via PBP and I could see the actions of the person who goes before me in the initiative count and plan my actions around that. In addition, unlike PBEM, rolling dice is a snap with the site that I use for PBP. Dialogue and PC-NPC interaction makes a lot more sense in PBP, especially in a scenario when someone is giving your group a mission. There is no huge difference between PBP and table-top gaming, which obviously trumps both PBP and PBEM. As for players posting longer posts, that is a double-edged sword. There are many times where a one-line post is appropriate for the character, ranging from the times that the character is too stupid to put together long and coherent speeches to the times when a simple response is all that's needed to stop the NPC noble in his tracks and make him take some time to contemplate his actions and his plans for the future. Plus, if I really wanted to I could make a 4-paragraph explanation for my character and his actions via PBP just as easily as I could do that in a PBEM game. "Turn recaps", just like every other thing that can be done in a PBEM game, can be emulated in a PBP game as well. However, I see these "turn recaps" as a mechanism that slows down gameplay instead of helping it. The problem is that they are seemingly unavoidable in PBEM games and are the only thing that make them work. Gameplay must go really slow if you're only getting input from the DM once a week as opposed to at least once per day like you would be getting if you ran a standard PBP game. When it comes to the speed at which the games go, PBEM is the molasses of gaming formats. I see a grand total of zero advantages.
Fabian 11-05-05, 10:00 PM	Hey Majorafire77, Thanks for sharing your views; I can see what type of online gaming experience you've had. Let me try and expose my views. Here are some general rules for PBEMs: http://www.geocities.com/cfbenave/Eberron/Eberron-Houserules.htm. This is part of the website at the signature where I also have character profiles and turn recaps. The reason that PBEM is imo strictly inferior when compared to PBP is because you can pull off the exact same thing with PBP if you so desired, but you could also do so much more. I agree that you can play a PBEM in forum. In addition, PBP doesn't take up space in your inbox, and multiple games can be played in and run by you without having to sign up for a new yahoo account every month. If you simply deleted the posts then that would simply be an alternative drawback compared to PBP. This comment about taking space in your inbox is offset by the time you have to spend checking the forum of your game. I'm not sure what you meant by that last sentence above. However, with a turn recap you can simply delete all the emails as the recap is all that counts. Another thing to bring up here is that you probably will not be able to play in multiple PBEMs unless you have a lot of time in your hands (lucky you). This is because in a proper PBEM, you will take time to develop your characters and that takes time. You'll have to post 2-3 paragrpahs a couple of times a week and that can take time if you plan on playing on many games. I understand that you'll be able to play in a lot more PBP games where a 'one-line' post is OK. I think it's question of quality versus quantity issue. Resolving conflicting actions in PBP is just like doing the same at the table, you talk it out or PM the player and resolve it out-of-game. The problem with the above is that you have to be online if you are going to stop and ask everytime there is a problem. In a PBEM, you can assume actions and post accordingly. The DM will roll all the dice and let you know what happened. That's it. There's a certain trust implicit in this that many players are not comfortable with. I can't see how combat, dialogue, or PC-NPC action could be represented better by PBEM at all. With PBP I could get a picture of a map from this site and put in markers representing the characters and post that in the same post as everything else. Alternatively, I can make a grid using code boxes. The turn order can be followed a lot easier via PBP and I could see the actions of the person who goes before me in the initiative count and plan my actions around that. In addition, unlike PBEM, rolling dice is a snap with the site that I use for PBP. Dialogue and PC-NPC interaction makes a lot more sense in PBP, especially in a scenario when someone is giving your group a mission. There is no huge difference between PBP and table-top gaming, which obviously trumps both PBP and PBEM. Just spend a little bit of time and read any of the turns posted in the website at the signature for an example of combat, dialogue, and PC/NPC interactions. You can also send any map or playing aid for combat. However, unlike PBP, in a PBEM you assume one or two turns worth of actions and post accordingly. The DM then rolls all the dice (no issues of dice rollers), figures out what happened, and posts a coherent recap letting everyone know what went on. That's it. No dice rolling. You may see a typical combat post at: http://www.geocities.com/cfbenave/Eberron/Eberroncombatpost.htm As for players posting longer posts, that is a double-edged sword. There are many times where a one-line post is appropriate for the character, ranging from the times that the character is too stupid to put together long and coherent speeches to the times when a simple response is all that's needed to stop the NPC noble in his tracks and make him take some time to contemplate his actions and his plans for the future. Plus, if I really wanted to I could make a 4-paragraph explanation for my character and his actions via PBP just as easily as I could do that in a PBEM game. See, here is where we differ. When I talk about a longer post, I don't necessarily mean a long 'speech' by the character. A long post (2-3 paragraphs) is composed of some of the following: a) how the character perceives the situations (all senses), b) internal thought process (giving us insight into his character), c) well described actions describing intended actions and intended results (not just 'I hit with my sword'), and d) minor reactions/dialogue from NPCs ('minor' is the key word here; the DM will tell you if you've assumed too much or assumed just plain wrong). Given the above, I can only see benefits in longer posts (not longer speeches) from players. I have already agreed that you may do this in forum, but it just isn't encouraged. I don't see many games that consistently do this. Are you hosting/playing in any where players and DM post 2-3 paragraphs? "Turn recaps", just like every other thing that can be done in a PBEM game, can be emulated in a PBP game as well. However, I see these "turn recaps" as a mechanism that slows down gameplay instead of helping it. The problem is that they are seemingly unavoidable in PBEM games and are the only thing that make them work. Gameplay must go really slow if you're only getting input from the DM once a week as opposed to at least once per day like you would be getting if you ran a standard PBP game. When it comes to the speed at which the games go, PBEM is the molasses of gaming formats. Turn recaps may be done in a PBP, but I don't see this being done. Again, the DM is not encouraged to do so when the players just post 'one-liners'. Frankly, the turn recaps (chapters in an ongoing story) is one of the main advantages in a PBEM. I understand that you may not think so and that's fine. I don't think the PBEM is necessarily slow if a turn recap goes out a couple of times a week. A lot of ground is covered in those recaps. One thing that you've assumed incorrectly is that the turn recap is the only time you'll get input from the DM. The DM will email minor actions form NPCs, out-of-character (ooc) comments, and explanations as quickly as desired (I try to do this at least a couple of times per day). I see a grand total of zero advantages. I understand that you may feel that way. However for me, the turn recap is the main advantage of PBEMs. The recaps will encourage a lot more character developement (see above as to what makes up a post) and a lot more 'story-telling' than a PBPs. We are talking in general terms as specific games may be different (both PBP and PBEMs). Again, thanks for your input and I look forward to a continued exchange of views. L8r, Fabian Troubled Past - An Eberron PBEM http://www.geocities.com/cfbenave/Eberron/Eberron-Page2.htm Always looking for excellent roleplayers!
burns1gn 11-06-05, 01:16 AM	Obviously I’m in favor of the PBEM format and want my game in the format. I believe that the PBEM provides a richer context than PBP, or even tabletop gaming, but is also slower than other formats. Aside from stylistic differences, it is important to acknowledge that both PBEM and PBP formats have their own strengths and weaknesses. One difference between the two that has been ignored, and one that I think is important, is the feel of the games. In my experience, PBEM tends to produce more of an episodic campaign, with the story happening in parts (or turn recaps). PBP games, on the other hand, tend to provide a more continuous gaming experience (in a relative sense). I also feel that I can and should bring the discussion about PBEM and PBP differences back to Eberron. Quoting from page 250 of the Eberron Campaign Setting, “Whenever possible, multisession adventures should end with a cliffhanger – can the heroes come up with a way to over come the seemingly impossible odds by the start of the next scene?” In PBEM, the turn recaps lend themselves to this style of play. They allow the DM to build a sense of suspension and drama amongst players that seems to be at the very heart of the Eberron game.
Majorafire77 11-06-05, 12:39 PM	This comment about taking space in your inbox is offset by the time you have to spend checking the forum of your game. I'm not sure what you meant by that last sentence above. However, with a turn recap you can simply delete all the emails as the recap is all that counts. Another thing to bring up here is that you probably will not be able to play in multiple PBEMs unless you have a lot of time in your hands (lucky you). This is because in a proper PBEM, you will take time to develop your characters and that takes time. You'll have to post 2-3 paragrpahs a couple of times a week and that can take time if you plan on playing on many games. I understand that you'll be able to play in a lot more PBP games where a 'one-line' post is OK. I think it's question of quality versus quantity issue. What I'm getting from this is that an average PBEM player puts about 6-9 paragraphs per week of content. I believe that the same person would put out the same amount of content per week had he been playing in a PBP game instead. I don't think that the quantity really changes that much from format to format. I don't think the quality changes much either. I post one-liners when it's appropriate and I post long descriptions when it's appropriate. There is a place for single-sentence responses in D&D, and I don't think that 2-3 paragraphs are appropriate in all situations, as I'll describe below. The problem with the above is that you have to be online if you are going to stop and ask everytime there is a problem. In a PBEM, you can assume actions and post accordingly. The DM will roll all the dice and let you know what happened. That's it. There's a certain trust implicit in this that many players are not comfortable with. Online a problem takes a maximum of two days to be resolved in my experience (and in the months that I've been playing in multiple games I've only encountered a single problem). Technically PBEM games take longer to resolve problems than PBP games do, so I think that's a pretty weak argument. Just spend a little bit of time and read any of the turns posted in the website at the signature for an example of combat, dialogue, and PC/NPC interactions. You can also send any map or playing aid for combat. However, unlike PBP, in a PBEM you assume one or two turns worth of actions and post accordingly. The DM then rolls all the dice (no issues of dice rollers), figures out what happened, and posts a coherent recap letting everyone know what went on. That's it. No dice rolling. You may see a typical combat post at: http://www.geocities.com/cfbenave/Eberron/Eberroncombatpost.htm Taking two turns worth of actions at a time is horrid and takes away from the realism of the scenario. If I'm a character fighting with my companions against an enemy group and I go after one of my friends, then I'm going to do an action that complements my ally's action. Taking two turns at once involves no planning and is more akin to "I hit this guy with my sword" than table-top or PBP games are, no matter how you describe it. Really complex actions involving multiple characters do not play out in PBEM; I don't even see how flanking works well in a PBEM game, if it works at all. See, here is where we differ. When I talk about a longer post, I don't necessarily mean a long 'speech' by the character. A long post (2-3 paragraphs) is composed of some of the following: a) how the character perceives the situations (all senses), b) internal thought process (giving us insight into his character), c) well described actions describing intended actions and intended results (not just 'I hit with my sword'), and d) minor reactions/dialogue from NPCs ('minor' is the key word here; the DM will tell you if you've assumed too much or assumed just plain wrong). Given the above, I can only see benefits in longer posts (not longer speeches) from players. I have already agreed that you may do this in forum, but it just isn't encouraged. I don't see many games that consistently do this. Are you hosting/playing in any where players and DM post 2-3 paragraphs? Most of what you describe depends on the player, not the format of play. I think that the reactions from the NPC is kind of stupid, however. However minor they may be, it's controlling the DM's character, which the player shouldn't be able to do. I'm hosting a module where I generally use the descriptions outlined in it modified to suit my needs, but I'm playing in a game where the DM posts at least a paragraph a day, which is apparantly just like how it works in PBEM but it's going faster, which is good. However, not all of the other things are required in a post in all situations. I don't want to post how my character perceives the situation and his thoughts on the matter every single time that my quick and witty wizard counters the NPC's insult with a quick one that makes him look like a dumbass. Overdescription is simply a waste of time on the part of both the people posting and the people reading said post, in both PBEM and PBP. Turn recaps may be done in a PBP, but I don't see this being done. Again, the DM is not encouraged to do so when the players just post 'one-liners'. Frankly, the turn recaps (chapters in an ongoing story) is one of the main advantages in a PBEM. I understand that you may not think so and that's fine. I don't think the PBEM is necessarily slow if a turn recap goes out a couple of times a week. A lot of ground is covered in those recaps. One thing that you've assumed incorrectly is that the turn recap is the only time you'll get input from the DM. The DM will email minor actions form NPCs, out-of-character (ooc) comments, and explanations as quickly as desired (I try to do this at least a couple of times per day). There's a reason that turn recaps aren't done in PBP: They serve absolutely no purpose in such a game because everything that had been posted is already there for everyone to view and/or respond to. There's absolutely no point. Like I said and you agreed with me, a PBEM game can be run in PBP. You have not really specified why playing by e-mail itself is better than playing by posting. If I have two groups of four people that game exactly the same way, the PBP game will come out to be a more realistic experience as well as a faster one compared to the PBEM game, while retaining all of the detail and description that is apparently one of the key things that make PBEM games tick. EDIT: I think that we might have gotten off topic here, because the main point that triggered this discussion was that the format of PBEM is strictly inferior to the format of PBP. Since you've already agreed that it's possible to run a PBEM game in a PBP environment and since there are obviously additional features that you can only have access to when playing in PBP, I think that we've come to an agreement that the format of PBEM is strictly inferior to PBP, though the players who do PBEM may be of "higher quality" when it comes to roleplaying than those who play PBP.
Fabian 11-06-05, 03:13 PM	Hey Majorafire77, Thanks for your views. I'll try and explain myself a little further. What I'm getting from this is that an average PBEM player puts about 6-9 paragraphs per week of content. I believe that the same person would put out the same amount of content per week had he been playing in a PBP game instead. I don't think that the quantity really changes that much from format to format. I don't think the quality changes much either. I post one-liners when it's appropriate and I post long descriptions when it's appropriate. There is a place for single-sentence responses in D&D, and I don't think that 2-3 paragraphs are appropriate in all situations, as I'll describe below. Yes, it is possible to play a PBEM style game (longer, deeper posts, turn recaps, etc.) in a forum, but it isn't done very frequently. I've asked you before; are you playing in any PBP games that have players consistently writing 2-3 paragraphs twice per week with the DM putting out turn recaps? Online a problem takes a maximum of two days to be resolved in my experience (and in the months that I've been playing in multiple games I've only encountered a single problem). Technically PBEM games take longer to resolve problems than PBP games do, so I think that's a pretty weak argument. I'm not sure why this would any different in a PBEM. Would you care to explain why you think it 'technically takes longer to solve problems' in a PBEM? Taking two turns worth of actions at a time is horrid and takes away from the realism of the scenario. If I'm a character fighting with my companions against an enemy group and I go after one of my friends, then I'm going to do an action that complements my ally's action. Taking two turns at once involves no planning and is more akin to "I hit this guy with my sword" than table-top or PBP games are, no matter how you describe it. Really complex actions involving multiple characters do not play out in PBEM; I don't even see how flanking works well in a PBEM game, if it works at all. Taking two turns worth of intended actions takes 'more' planning than playing turn by turn and is nothing akin to 'I hit this guy with my sword'. Did you get a chance to read the sample combat post I pointed out. I can point out plenty of other 'real-game' posts. Flanking would work just like in a table top game, you describe your intent to flank (describe the result), and the DM rolls the required dice (if applicable). Most of what you describe depends on the player, not the format of play. I think that the reactions from the NPC is kind of stupid, however. However minor they may be, it's controlling the DM's character, which the player shouldn't be able to do. I'm hosting a module where I generally use the descriptions outlined in it modified to suit my needs, but I'm playing in a game where the DM posts at least a paragraph a day, which is apparantly just like how it works in PBEM but it's going faster, which is good. Yes, it does depend on the player somewhat, but you'll find this type of player in a PBEM much more often than in a PBP. I'm not sure if the game calls the players or this type of player is drawn to the game. However, the end result is the same. Much more character development and story-like gaming in a PBEM than in a PBP. I would even go as far as telling you there is a lot more character development and story-telling ina PBEM as compared to a table-top game. I don't think controlling an NPC for a minor action is stupid at all. I think it gives the players a certain stake in the world, and they become much more involved in the game. However, not all of the other things are required in a post in all situations. I don't want to post how my character perceives the situation and his thoughts on the matter every single time that my quick and witty wizard counters the NPC's insult with a quick one that makes him look like a dumbass. Overdescription is simply a waste of time on the part of both the people posting and the people reading said post, in both PBEM and PBP. This is just a difference in what you and I like. I prefer reading 2-3 paragraphs when a player posts than a 'one-liner'. There's a reason that turn recaps aren't done in PBP: They serve absolutely no purpose in such a game because everything that had been posted is already there for everyone to view and/or respond to. There's absolutely no point. Well, there's a point if you don't like to read a several disjointed 'one-liners' to find out what's going on in the game. If that's all you want out of a game, then you're right, there isn't a point. However, there's a point if you like to read a chapter in an on-going story that you're a part of. Like I said and you agreed with me, a PBEM game can be run in PBP. You have not really specified why playing by e-mail itself is better than playing by posting. If I have two groups of four people that game exactly the same way, the PBP game will come out to be a more realistic experience as well as a faster one compared to the PBEM game, while retaining all of the detail and description that is apparently one of the key things that make PBEM games tick. Let me try and be clear. You can play a PBEM style game in a forum, but it isn't done so very frequently. Therefore, I think that the PBEM style is superior because of the kind of game that results. Everything that can be done in a PBP may be done in a PBEM (did I miss something?). EDIT: I think that we might have gotten off topic here, because the main point that triggered this discussion was that the format of PBEM is strictly inferior to the format of PBP. Since you've already agreed that it's possible to run a PBEM game in a PBP environment and since there are obviously additional features that you can only have access to when playing in PBP, I think that we've come to an agreement that the format of PBEM is strictly inferior to PBP, though the players who do PBEM may be of "higher quality" when it comes to roleplaying than those who play PBP. I haven't come to that conclusion because I don't know what 'obviously additional features that you can only have access to when playing in PBP' that cannot be used in a PBEM format. Are you talking about a 'dice roller', there isn't dice rolling in a PBEM except by the DM. if there were any dice rolling, a PBEM can use any dice roller out there. I'm sure what these features are that are pertinent to a PBEM. Would you care to expand on that? And when talking about the type of game that result from each type of 'mecahnical setup', I think the PBEM result is the better of the two. But this is just my opinion, which I hope I've made clear. If you aren't into character development, chapter-like story telling, then maybe this type of game isn't for you. If you don't mind reading disjointed 'one-liners' to figure out what's going on, then you should stay with PBPs. As an added bonus, you can play a lot more PBP games since they don't take too much of your time. Thanks again! Fabian Troubled Past - An Eberron PBEM http://www.geocities.com/cfbenave/Eberron/Eberron-Page2.htm Always looking for excellent roleplayers!
Majorafire77 11-06-05, 11:00 PM	I think we should make our posts sblocks Fabian, because we're really clogging up this board. Yes, it is possible to play a PBEM style game (longer, deeper posts, turn recaps, etc.) in a forum, but it isn't done very frequently. I've asked you before; are you playing in any PBP games that have players consistently writing 2-3 paragraphs twice per week with the DM putting out turn recaps? No, but the only reason I'm not is because that wasn't something that we had agreed to at the beginning of the game. There is no reason that you couldn't find a group of avid PBEMers and establish that as what you do. I don't play PBEM-style games in PBP because I enjoy the style of game that usually occurs on PBP, but I'm sure that you could find a game where players post really in-depth posts consistently. It depends on the players, not on the format. I'm not sure why this would any different in a PBEM. Would you care to explain why you think it 'technically takes longer to solve problems' in a PBEM? Because the way I see it players are only getting real hardcore DM feedback once per week as opposed to once every 12-24 hours (or less if you plan out the time zones and stuff well). Taking two turns worth of intended actions takes 'more' planning than playing turn by turn and is nothing akin to 'I hit this guy with my sword'. Did you get a chance to read the sample combat post I pointed out. I can point out plenty of other 'real-game' posts. Flanking would work just like in a table top game, you describe your intent to flank (describe the result), and the DM rolls the required dice (if applicable). I guess I see what you mean, but combat in PBEM is all about action and has nothing to do with reaction. Say that the initiative order has my "character1" after another player's "character2" and character2 ended up in melee with a gnoll when the DM posted the turn recap. Both character1 and character 2 send in their actions, with character1 saying that he wants to flank said gnoll with character2 while character2 says that he wants to run over to fight the gnoll commander who is absolutely squashing the other guys. Character2's action resolves first, and now everything that character1 wanted to do is completely ****ed up because it was all dependant on character2. If character1's player had known that character2 was going to leave right before him on the initiative count, he might've taken a different action. Stuff like this may kill characters thanks to the PBEM format. This does not happen with PBP games. This does not happen with table-top games. Yes, it does depend on the player somewhat, but you'll find this type of player in a PBEM much more often than in a PBP. I'm not sure if the game calls the players or this type of player is drawn to the game. However, the end result is the same. Much more character development and story-like gaming in a PBEM than in a PBP. I would even go as far as telling you there is a lot more character development and story-telling ina PBEM as compared to a table-top game. Yes, you can find them more often in a PBEM setting than a PBP setting, but that's not the point. The point is that the players determine how a game works, NOT the format (except in the above example thanks to PBEM's buggy combat system). I don't think controlling an NPC for a minor action is stupid at all. I think it gives the players a certain stake in the world, and they become much more involved in the game. Well, while you and I may differ on this point, I think that we can at least agree that this is possible in both a PBEM and a PBP game. This is just a difference in what you and I like. I prefer reading 2-3 paragraphs when a player posts than a 'one-liner'. You misunderstand me. I like reading one-liners when it's appropriate and 2-3 (and longer) paragraph posts when it's appropriate. It's just like the message boards in a sense. This discussion requires multiple paragraphs per post, but some posts only require one line to get the entire point across. ("Your DM needs to be shot. in the head. with a hammer." is a good example). It would completely blow if the person who posted said line expanded it into a 2-3 paragraph rant on how much the person's DM sucked. Well, there's a point if you don't like to read a several disjointed 'one-liners' to find out what's going on in the game. If that's all you want out of a game, then you're right, there isn't a point. However, there's a point if you like to read a chapter in an on-going story that you're a part of. The chapter's already there in front of your eyes in the format of the player's posts; there's no point in posting it again just to say that it was a "turn recap". Let me try and be clear. You can play a PBEM style game in a forum, but it isn't done so very frequently. Therefore, I think that the PBEM style is superior because of the kind of game that results. Everything that can be done in a PBP may be done in a PBEM (did I miss something?). You think that the PBEM style is superior because of the PLAYERS who play using it, not because of the format itself. I'm saying that the FORMAT of PBP is strictly superior to that of PBEM. Every roleplaying thing that can be done in PBP can be done in PBEM, true, but there are some perks to playing in PBP, such as avoiding the above combat thing that can happen oh so easily in a PBEM game. I haven't come to that conclusion because I don't know what 'obviously additional features that you can only have access to when playing in PBP' that cannot be used in a PBEM format. Are you talking about a 'dice roller', there isn't dice rolling in a PBEM except by the DM. if there were any dice rolling, a PBEM can use any dice roller out there. I'm sure what these features are that are pertinent to a PBEM. Would you care to expand on that? It's not the dice roller that I'm talking about, though that is kind of good. The obvious additional thing that is in both PBP and table-top that PBEM lacks is the ability to be reactive whenever you want as opposed to simply being reactive right after a DM posts a "turn recap". The standard format that PBEM uses (2-3 paragraphs per post) would make it so that if that ability was granted to the players then the game would run excruciatingly slowly (1 round per week max in combat). In addition to that, which is key, PBP also features some nice things like the afformentioned dice-roller which makes the game run more smoothly and makes it less of a hassle for the DM. When the DM wants to say one thing to the group, one thing to another person, and yet another different thing to another different person, he can accomplish that in one PBP post as opposed to 3 seperate emails. Gameplay isn't as much of a pain in the ass with PBP. And when talking about the type of game that result from each type of 'mecahnical setup', I think the PBEM result is the better of the two. But this is just my opinion, which I hope I've made clear. If you aren't into character development, chapter-like story telling, then maybe this type of game isn't for you. If you don't mind reading disjointed 'one-liners' to figure out what's going on, then you should stay with PBPs. As an added bonus, you can play a lot more PBP games since they don't take too much of your time. Here's an analogy for you: A PBEM game is more like a novel whereas a PBP game is more like a play. Both can be divided into chapters, and both can have equal amounts of character development (which, given a good character, I love by the way). There are many times in plays that one-liners are all that is needed to give the reader (or listener) a good idea of what that character is going through and what their thoughts are. For all you know people who prefer PBP are simply better at deriving meaning from words than people who prefer PBEM. A PBEM game may have more words, but I'd rather read an eloquent and profound one-liner than paragraph upon paragraph of crap, which I may or may not get with PBEM, I'm not quite sure. I like reading plays; you like reading novels. I can convert a play into a novel; you can convert a novel into a play. No matter what format it's in, however, it will retain the same story; it's really the characters, setting, and plot that matters, not which way you're reading it.
erbmjw 11-07-05, 07:26 AM	I sent the Druid/Barbarian concept email to your 'other' email address - it's gone to the right one now.
Fabian 11-07-05, 10:11 AM	Hey Majorafire77; Thanks again for your views. I think there's point in time when someone is just repeating themselves in an argument (friendly argument). :) We may have reached that point here. Sorry, but I'm not sure I know how put the stuff in sblocks and people can just scroll down. :) I like your last paragraph... I like reading plays; you like reading novels. I can convert a play into a novel; you can convert a novel into a play. No matter what format it's in, however, it will retain the same story; it's really the characters, setting, and plot that matters, not which way you're reading it. This is a lot better than the "PBEM format is stricktly inferior to PBP". I agree that both styles (novel and play) can be done in either forum, but I still think the novel style is much more frequent in a PBEM and better suited (see below). What follows are some further clarifications. Because the way I see it players are only getting real hardcore DM feedback once per week as opposed to once every 12-24 hours (or less if you plan out the time zones and stuff well). Again, you confuse the turn recaps (once or twice per week) with DM input. As I've stated before, DM input is usually done daily or several times per day in my case. I guess I see what you mean, but combat in PBEM is all about action and has nothing to do with reaction. Say that the initiative order has my "character1" after another player's "character2" and character2 ended up in melee with a gnoll when the DM posted the turn recap. Both character1 and character 2 send in their actions, with character1 saying that he wants to flank said gnoll with character2 while character2 says that he wants to run over to fight the gnoll commander who is absolutely squashing the other guys. Character2's action resolves first, and now everything that character1 wanted to do is completely ****ed up because it was all dependant on character2. If character1's player had known that character2 was going to leave right before him on the initiative count, he might've taken a different action. Stuff like this may kill characters thanks to the PBEM format. This does not happen with PBP games. This does not happen with table-top games. Well, this is a matter of style as well. I've played in tabletop games where the DM asks your intention before initiative is rolled. And there have been plenty of times when my character wanted to strike someone, but, because he was slow (initiative wise), he ended having a 'dead' target in front of him. At that point, the character simply loses his action. This hasn't happened before in any of your games? Do you allow your players to switch on the fly? You misunderstand me. I like reading one-liners when it's appropriate and 2-3 (and longer) paragraph posts when it's appropriate. It's just like the message boards in a sense. This discussion requires multiple paragraphs per post, but some posts only require one line to get the entire point across. ("Your DM needs to be shot. in the head. with a hammer." is a good example). It would completely blow if the person who posted said line expanded it into a 2-3 paragraph rant on how much the person's DM sucked. Just because we are looking for 2-3 paragraphs doesn't mean we discourage one-liners. There are some 'one-liners' in PBEMs as well but only after significant input from players. I ask 2-3 paragraphs per player per turn. After that's done, they can add whatever they want. Some players write additional paragraphs and others write one-liners. The one-liners aren't prohibited; it's the 2-3 paragraphs that are required. The chapter's already there in front of your eyes in the format of the player's posts; there's no point in posting it again just to say that it was a "turn recap". I just want to hammer this point home again. The turn recap is nothing like the disjointed series of one-liner posts typical in a PBP. Just look at most PBP games, then read a turn recap from a PBEM and you'll see the big difference. I'm not saying either is better than the other one. They are different, and I prefer the turn recaps. I understand if you don't feel that way but don't tell me they are the same thing. It's not the dice roller that I'm talking about, though that is kind of good. The obvious additional thing that is in both PBP and table-top that PBEM lacks is the ability to be reactive whenever you want as opposed to simply being reactive right after a DM posts a "turn recap". The standard format that PBEM uses (2-3 paragraphs per post) would make it so that if that ability was granted to the players then the game would run excruciatingly slowly (1 round per week max in combat). If I wanted to, there are plenty of dice rollers that work with email. That feature is not exclusive to a PBP format. I don't know why you think combat is 1 round per week. Combat is more like 4 rounds per week. See above for active/reactive combat. In addition to that, which is key, PBP also features some nice things like the afformentioned dice-roller which makes the game run more smoothly and makes it less of a hassle for the DM. When the DM wants to say one thing to the group, one thing to another person, and yet another different thing to another different person, he can accomplish that in one PBP post as opposed to 3 seperate emails. Gameplay isn't as much of a pain in the ass with PBP. Most of the stuff in the game is known by all players; I trust them to separate player vs character knowledge. As you've pointed out, I could send separate email if I wanted to pass on private knowledge; I don't think it would be that much more of a hassle than in a PBP format. Here's an analogy for you: A PBEM game is more like a novel whereas a PBP game is more like a play. Both can be divided into chapters, and both can have equal amounts of character development (which, given a good character, I love by the way). There are many times in plays that one-liners are all that is needed to give the reader (or listener) a good idea of what that character is going through and what their thoughts are. For all you know people who prefer PBP are simply better at deriving meaning from words than people who prefer PBEM. That's a pretty good analogy. However, I would caution that a play was devised to be acted on stage. Plays are never meant to be 'just read', unlike novels. As you watch the play, you have other important elements that help to tell the story, mainly the scenery and actions by the actors. At that point, a one liner may be fine. However, when reading a PBP with one liners without the help of scenery and action, the medium just loses richness. So if you are just reading something, you would want it be more like a novel (PBEM) than a play (PBP). Thanks again for your views! Fabian Troubled Past - An Eberron PBEM http://www.geocities.com/cfbenave/Eberron/Eberron-Page2.htm Always looking for excellent roleplayers!
Majorafire77 11-07-05, 06:11 PM	This discussion is going nowhere. You agree with me that PBP has all of the features of PBEM, as you've said in a previous post. There's also no way to make text in an email visible to some readers but not all, unlike in a PBP post. Therefore, PBP has at least one option more than PBEM does. Therefore, the format (a concept which it seems like you don't understand) of PBP is better than that of PBEM 100% of the time. End of discussion.
burns1gn 11-07-05, 11:30 PM	Therefore, PBP has at least one option more than PBEM does. Therefore, the format (a concept which it seems like you don't understand) of PBP is better than that of PBEM 100% of the time. End of discussion. This type of sweeping generality cannot be true. For yourself, you may believe that PBP is better than PBEM 100% of the time. And if so, good for you! However, for many others PBEM is the preferred style of game play. I myself think the format of the PBEM game is preferable, and even better, than that of the PBP. This, however, has to do with how I play the game. Such grandiose and unsupportable statements as those you have made above prove nothing except that you have an agenda to promote and a desire to beat this exchange into the ground.
Majorafire77 11-08-05, 05:56 AM	This type of sweeping generality cannot be true. For yourself, you may believe that PBP is better than PBEM 100% of the time. And if so, good for you! However, for many others PBEM is the preferred style of game play. I myself think the format of the PBEM game is preferable, and even better, than that of the PBP. This, however, has to do with how I play the game. Tell me, what makes you think that the format of PBEM is better than that of PBP? As I've said before, I see a grand total of zero advantages. Such grandiose and unsupportable statements as those you have made above prove nothing except that you have an agenda to promote and a desire to beat this exchange into the ground. Unsupported statements? I agree that you can play a PBEM in forum. If that's not support then I don't know what is. He agreed with me that every single one of the features of the PBEM format could be found in PBP as well. I took that and built off of it to come to my conclusion, using my past experience in PBPs. Like I said, if PBPs have all of the features of PBEMs and MORE, then PBEM is strictly inferior. That's not an unsupported statement: That's logic.
Fabian 11-08-05, 08:09 AM	Hey Majorafire77, I think you're getting a little excited over this exchange of views. He agreed with me that every single one of the features of the PBEM format could be found in PBP as well. I took that and built off of it to come to my conclusion, using my past experience in PBPs. Like I said, if PBPs have all of the features of PBEMs and MORE, then PBEM is strictly inferior. That's not an unsupported statement: That's logic. If it makes you happy, then you are correct. The PBEM format may be emulated in a PBP game. With the added benefit of .... There's also no way to make text in an email visible to some readers but not all, unlike in a PBP post. Therefore, PBP has at least one option more than PBEM does. You're right again. In order for me to do this in a PBEM, I would have to hit 'reply all' and then manually delete the unintended recepients. That's a lot of work. Now, I'm not saying the PBEM format is better than the PBP format; I'm saying they are both just as good, which is different than "PBEM format is strictly inferior to PBP format". I'm also saying that I prefer PBEM games over PBP games. But I understand your view may be different. You may be happy with posting and reading 'one-liners' and, therefore, be able to play in many PBPs. All I wanted to expose here was that anything that could be done in a PBP could be emulated in a PBEM. I think we got there. Don't feel the need to reply; I think we all know what you are saying. L8r, Fabian Troubled Past - An Eberron PBEM http://www.geocities.com/cfbenave/Eberron/Eberron-Page2.htm Always looking for excellent roleplayers!
Majorafire77 11-08-05, 03:11 PM	All I wanted to expose here was that anything that could be done in a PBP could be emulated in a PBEM. I think we got there. But you're wrong there. With a PBP, I can post one message where one block of text may be only visible to you, another seperate one only visible to burns1gn, etc... You can't do that in a PBEM game without sending multiple messages. Had I not already posted this advantage? In a PBP game all I need to do is type in the dice that I want to roll (such as 1d20-5), highlight it, and click a button and I've just rolled dice within the post. Can you do that in a PBEM game? I think not. Whether or not you see it as an advantage, many people do, and it is another example of a thing that can be done in PBP that can't be done in PBEM. In a PBP game I can click on someones screename to activate a drop-down menu, and click again to get to their character sheet. That takes little to no work on their part either. Can you do this in PBEM? No. Do you have away messages with PBEM that tell your players/DM when you're gone and when you'll be back at a glance? I didn't think so. Those were four examples of things that I can do in a PBP game that you can't do in a PBEM game; your theory doesn't stand up.
Fabian 11-08-05, 04:12 PM	Oh boy, This is getting ridiculous but highly entertaining. I'm going to try again. Again I'm not going for "PBEM format is better than PBP". I can see both sides and can see how certain types of players could be drawn to each type of game. What I want to get across is that saying "PBEM format is strictly inferior to PBEM format" does not hold true. But you're wrong there. With a PBP, I can post one message where one block of text may be only visible to you, another seperate one only visible to burns1gn, etc... You can't do that in a PBEM game without sending multiple messages. Had I not already posted this advantage? What you describe above is called 'sending private messages to players'. In a PBEM, I can send private emails to my heart's content. 'Sending private messages to players' can be done in a PBP and in a PBEM. In a PBP game all I need to do is type in the dice that I want to roll (such as 1d20-5), highlight it, and click a button and I've just rolled dice within the post. Can you do that in a PBEM game? I think not. Whether or not you see it as an advantage, many people do, and it is another example of a thing that can be done in PBP that can't be done in PBEM. What you describe above is called 'dice rolling'. I have tried to explain to you that it's not as necessary in a PBEM as it is in a PBP. However, I have also showed you that there are dice rollers that work with email. I can send you links if you want them. 'Dice rolling' can be done in a PBP and in a PBEM. In a PBP game I can click on someones screename to activate a drop-down menu, and click again to get to their character sheet. That takes little to no work on their part either. Can you do this in PBEM? No. What you describe above is called 'viewing someone's character sheet'. Character sheets are usually kept in the DM's computer and are printed out (usually). A DM from a PBEM may view a character sheet at any time. 'Viewing someone's character sheet' can be done in a PBP and in a PBEM. Do you have away messages with PBEM that tell your players/DM when you're gone and when you'll be back at a glance? I didn't think so. Being online at the same time is NOT required in a PBEM. Telling me that a PBP format is better because it can do something that isn't required in a PBEM format is like telling me that 'football is better than baseball because you get to use shoulder pads'. But wait, you don't need shoulder pads in baseball. It doesn't matter; football is better because you get to use shoulder pads. Logic? Thanks again for your views. L8r, Fabian Troubled Past - An Eberron PBEM http://www.geocities.com/cfbenave/Eberron/Eberron-Page2.htm Always looking for excellent roleplayers!
Majorafire77 11-09-05, 04:13 PM	What I want to get across is that saying "PBEM format is strictly inferior to PBEM format" does not hold true. We have a winner. What you describe above is called 'sending private messages to players'. In a PBEM, I can send private emails to my heart's content. 'Sending private messages to players' can be done in a PBP and in a PBEM. You are wrong. I know what PMs are and that is not what I'm describing. Educate yourself before attempting to make me look stupid please. What you describe above is called 'dice rolling'. I have tried to explain to you that it's not as necessary in a PBEM as it is in a PBP. However, I have also showed you that there are dice rollers that work with email. I can send you links if you want them. 'Dice rolling' can be done in a PBP and in a PBEM. 1: It's just as useful in PBEM as it is in PBP so I don't know what you're thinking. 2: It's just another feature that PBP has that PBEM doesn't. PBEM doesn't have dice rolling that takes 2 clicks and a drag of the mouse to do; PBP does. It doesn't matter if you care about in-post dice rolling (many groups do though), more features = better system. What you describe above is called 'viewing someone's character sheet'. Character sheets are usually kept in the DM's computer and are printed out (usually). A DM from a PBEM may view a character sheet at any time. 'Viewing someone's character sheet' can be done in a PBP and in a PBEM. Oh, so you're saying that a player can look at another player's character sheet (like they can in a table-top game) using the PBEM system? Nope, didn't think so. Plus, digital ones are superior to paper ones that are printed out anyway. After a level-up or two those sheets will be riddled with cross-outs and replacements while a digital one will be just as clean as it was beforehand. Being online at the same time is NOT required in a PBEM. Telling me that a PBP format is better because it can do something that isn't required in a PBEM format is like telling me that 'football is better than baseball because you get to use shoulder pads'. But wait, you don't need shoulder pads in baseball. It doesn't matter; football is better because you get to use shoulder pads. Logic? I know that being online at the same time isn't required for a PBP or a PBEM (the main advantage of those two systems over PBIM). It's just as required in PBEM as it is in PBP, it's very useful. If you leave for a week on vacation and don't have access to a computer then the game will just go on without you and your DM will get ****** for you not sending your essays on what your character does to him. The at-a-glance ability to tell whether someone is gone or still has access to their computer each day is quite useful. Logic? I think so. Contrary to what you might think, I'm not an idiot. PBP has more features than PBEM, whether they're useful in whatever games you play or not. If it has all of the features that PBEM has and MORE, doesn't it stand to reason that the system of PBP is always going to be more desireable than that of PBEM? When I say PBEM is strictly inferior, I don't mean that it's complete crap compared to PBP, I just mean that PBP is always going to be more desireable for an established gaming group who feels like playing D&D (or any P&P RPG for that matter) using PBP as opposed to PBEM.
Fabian 11-09-05, 05:38 PM	Hey Majorafire77, Thanks for posting; I thought I would miss out on my daily entertainment. :) We have a winner. Good catch on the typo in my statement. Thanks. I'm glad you knew what I meant though. You are wrong. I know what PMs are and that is not what I'm describing. Educate yourself before attempting to make me look stupid please. Isn't sending private messages what you described? Please tell how what you do is different. It is not my intention to make you look stupid. 1: It's just as useful in PBEM as it is in PBP so I don't know what you're thinking. 2: It's just another feature that PBP has that PBEM doesn't. PBEM doesn't have dice rolling that takes 2 clicks and a drag of the mouse to do; PBP does. It doesn't matter if you care about in-post dice rolling (many groups do though), more features = better system. How can you say that dice rollers can't be used in PBEMs? I thought we agreed that we could use dice rollers that worked with emails. This link: http://irony.com/webdice.html has plenty of email dice rollers. Oh, so you're saying that a player can look at another player's character sheet (like they can in a table-top game) using the PBEM system? Nope, didn't think so. Sure they can. I usually just share the character profile (background, appearance, and personality) with all players but could just as easily share the stats part of them as well. Plus, digital ones are superior to paper ones that are printed out anyway. After a level-up or two those sheets will be riddled with cross-outs and replacements while a digital one will be just as clean as it was beforehand. Ok, let me try and explain this. The character sheets that I was mentioning are done in Word format (word processor program from MS). This format allows you to 'write over' previous versions. I'm not sure what you mean about 'cross-outs' and 'replacements'. I know that being online at the same time isn't required for a PBP or a PBEM (the main advantage of those two systems over PBIM). It's just as required in PBEM as it is in PBP, it's very useful. If you leave for a week on vacation and don't have access to a computer then the game will just go on without you and your DM will get ****** for you not sending your essays on what your character does to him. The at-a-glance ability to tell whether someone is gone or still has access to their computer each day is quite useful. Logic? I think so. If I'm going to be gone for a certain period of time in a PBEM, I would just send an email to the DM letting him know that. Frankly, I think you are scrapping the bottom of the barrel for 'advantages' and are not thinking these things through. Anyone can just read the whole thread and find out how many 'advantages' have been conveniently discarded after I've showed you that the same thing could be accomplished in a PBEM. Contrary to what you might think, I'm not an idiot. Insulting you has never been my intent here. PBP has more features than PBEM, whether they're useful in whatever games you play or not. I'm still trying to find out what it is that you can do in a PBP that cannot be accomplished in a PBEM. If it has all of the features that PBEM has and MORE, doesn't it stand to reason that the system of PBP is always going to be more desireable than that of PBEM? When I say PBEM is strictly inferior, I don't mean that it's complete crap compared to PBP, I just mean that PBP is always going to be more desireable for an established gaming group who feels like playing D&D (or any P&P RPG for that matter) using PBP as opposed to PBEM. I think that I have played with many 'established gaming groups'; and all of these groups felt like playing in a PBEM as opposed to a PBP. Therefore, your statement is not true as written. I don't want to pull my weight around but I have played PBEMs on the web since 1999 (the turn recaps are still there). I have also played in plenty of PBPs as well and found out that their style was not to my liking. Do you see me trying to say that PBPs suck? All I am saying is that a PBEM format is just as good as a PBP format. I'm also saying that the resulting game from a PBEM format is more to my liking than the resulting game from a PBP format. I'm not saying 'better'; I'm saying 'more to my liking'. Do you really have to win? Can you not just admit that each format is different and result in different games? Some people will prefer one over the other. Thanks for your views and opinions. L8r, Fabian Troubled Past - An Eberron PBEM http://www.geocities.com/cfbenave/Eberron/Eberron-Page2.htm Always looking for excellent roleplayers!
Edymnion 11-09-05, 06:07 PM	There is nothing PBEM can do that PBP can't do, and do better. Namely, I am referring to www.rpol.net (http://www.rpol.net). Built in dice rollers, character sheets, scratch pads, support for public and private threads, and the ability to make threads private to some and viewable to a number of others. Plus adding in having guests in the game to watch without participating... Sorry dude, but PBEM just doesn't hold a candle against PBP on any board that is actually designed to do PBP (like RPOL). But, as a side note, the whole "Recruit people to play in my game" is off topic for this board. Looking for games/players is only on-topic in the RPG Gamer Classifieds board.
Fabian 11-09-05, 08:27 PM	Hey Edymnion: Thanks for your opinions. There is nothing PBEM can do that PBP can't do, and do better. Namely, I am referring to www.rpol.net. Built in dice rollers, character sheets, scratch pads, support for public and private threads, and the ability to make threads private to some and viewable to a number of others. Plus adding in having guests in the game to watch without participating... I just don't agree with the above, but it's probably me; I'm hardheaded.. All of the above mentioned 'advantages' have been brought up by another poster and been shown that they could be done in a PBEM. The only new items are: 'scratch pads', which I imagine could be transmitted through an email and 'having guest...' are called 'lurkers' in a PBEM, and they've also been around for a while. Sorry dude, but PBEM just doesn't hold a candle against PBP on any board that is actually designed to do PBP (like RPOL). I really am not convinced of the above. I repeat myself by saying this but 'there is nothing that a PBP can do that can't be done in a PBEM'. Thanks again for your views and opinions. L8r, Fabian Troubled Past - An Eberron PBEM http://www.geocities.com/cfbenave/Eberron/Eberron-Page2.htm Always looking for excellent roleplayers!
WizO_Sith 11-10-05, 08:06 AM	All Game Recruitment needs to occur in the RPG Gamer Classifieds (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=347) forum. This thread does not meet that forums strict formatting guidelines, and thus cannot be moved. *Click*