Eberronian PC Villains [Archive] - Wizards Community

Eberronian PC Villains [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dex The King
09-11-04, 03:04 PM I believe I may have come up with something big.

I came upon it when I was planning how to release Khyber's power, which I discussed with Wotc_Doog on one thread, and discussed with others on the What would you do in Eberron board.

Eberron has a great deal of plots, schemes, organizations, but also ways to gain vast amounts of power. There is a bit of a vacuum of high-level power in Khorvaire, at least. This is the cause of one of my favorite Eberron feature: the fact that the PCs are the heroes. When something threatens the world, the PCs are the ones to stop it, as no one else can.

But what if the PCs don't want to save the world, and instead want to rule it? As examples, if the PCs start as heroes, and stop the Emerald Claw or the Aurum from recovering the vile artifact, what's to prevent them from using it? If there is a method to take the power of the rajahs, why not use it yourself? If the Blood of Vol turns its finest acloytes into powerful undead, why not become one?

I want to know if any of you have seen things this way. For example, when you read the living breastplate, did you want one? Did you admire the powers of Khyber and seek to release them as I have suggested numerous times? Did you dream of conquering the Five Nations and renaming them after yourchildren?
Hellcow
09-11-04, 04:01 PM And Keith, did you have evil PCs somewhere in your mind when you created Eberron?
I need to start catching up on the Ask Keith thread. Ask me there, and I'll cross post here when I get to it. ;)
Brastan
09-11-04, 04:06 PM I haven't seen artifact grabbing yet for world domination, however...
One of my players is inserted in creating a pirate air fleet and another is working towards taking over and reuniting house Cannith. Am I worried that they will become villains? No way, it just means that I have more things to do to them. I would guess that some villain players don't understand is that they have more enemy and mover chances to die then good guys. As a general rule heros don't kill heros. The flip side is villains kill villains all the time. Villainous players in my campaign will suffer like all villains in my worlds do, with backstabbing, fights with good and evil force, and general harassment from there good aligned fellows.

I see the PCs as the bench mark for power in the world (for each gaming groups own adventuring). There is no one better then them (higher level) who is interested in adventuring. At there level or lower you have up coming heros all across world who could step up if the PCs fall (replacement characters). These can also be pressed into service as good aligned antagonists. Also if they want to keep powerful artifacts in their possession they'd better be ready when more people come busting down there door looking for it. :D

As for the two players of mine, I like the Artifice trying to take control of house Cannith its a cool plot device, especially when his current benefactor is the guy running house Cannith South( the one who won't stop making Warforged). The Air pirate, :shrug: he'll probably give up the idea once he gets an airship of his own.
Solwynn
09-11-04, 04:55 PM Could the PC's fill the power vacuum, become the "bad guys" and start taking over? Sure! But there's many a slip between the cup and the lip and planning on taking over and actually doing it are two different things.

Maybe the PC's need to stop a villain from using a powerful magical device that kills thousands of people at once. They defeat the villain and are left with this device, still ready to be set off. Then, in the name of assumedly good cause, they use this one-shot device to attack a known evil. Maybe some innocents get caught in its effects but you still manage to deal a mortal blow to an evil orgainization. Fine. Then in your next chapter have other villainous organizations come rushing in to fill the power vacuum, too! The players have cripped one organization only to provide an opening for three others. Plus maybe they have created some good-aligned enemies who know nothing of the evil the PCs destroyed - they only want to bring the PCs to justice or perhaps enact revenge.

Situations in which the players have to make a choice that define their PCs make the game more interesting. What WOULD they do if they had a device of incredible power at their fingertips and a hoard of enemies before them? Maybe they would destroy the device for the good of all. Maybe they would use it for what they perceive to be good. Maybe they would sell it off to the highest bidder. Who knows? But whatever decision they make gives you, the DM, an opening for further adventure. Make whatever decision they make have a benefit (they've earned it afterall by defeating the evildoer that was going to use it in the first place) but also make an enexpected downside. Things end badly in Eberron scenarios - not because its tragic by nature, but because it furthers the suspense and continues the drama. The heroes are never out of the woods for long.

Kyber has the potential to unleash great power, true. But as they say in the Spiderman movies: :teach: "With great power comes great responsibility." The PCs can tamper with this power but if they do they may bite off more than they can chew. :D
WotC_Doog
09-11-04, 05:23 PM And if the evil-leaning party in campaign #1 hoses up your Eberron really badly, all the better -- then the new, good-leaning party in campaign #2 has their work cut out for them straightening it all out again. :)
Saurenda
09-11-04, 05:27 PM I'm not forcing my pcs to do anything good or bad. Sor far they have made decisions to improve thier own lives at the expense of others, and for the benefit of others. I'm not expecting a straight an narrow path from them, and at the same time not the path of ultimate evil.

For the most part they simply do what is in thier best interests, and on occasion an evil act here and there, espically noting one of an addictive drug I put int he King's forest which the Jungle Boys cultivated, and the Knight Rangers wanted to put a stop too. Thats just an example.

I'm sure at times they do not care for the NPCs of the world, but at the same time they are attached to quite a few people who have given them jobs to begin with, including Elaydren.

As for your own invovlement with wanting to unleash the powers of Khyber and all that, that you haven't stopped talk about for weeks now more power to you I guess. But when Khyber is unleashed the world destroyed, you'll have no place to put all your artifacts, much less any power or supposed immortaliy will do you is survive to see a burnt out world just before it crumbles to nothing, and all living creature including evil ones will die all the same essentially burning themselves out to dust.

All we are is dust in the wind by Kansas. That's a song that a Rakshasa in duisguse as a human often sings to the my PCs. Wether or not the minions of destruction accept thier own inevtiable destruction is uncreation.

No amount of agreeing with you or disgreeing with you will make you stop wanting it. But I am sure not all 'bad guys' feel the same about your position. Some like how things are now, I am sure. Why change a good thing after all? Without Khyber to much everything up they can live up thier immortality and cause that pain and destruction they like so much if only in little amounts.

And yes I am sure that it varies from villian to villian in and out of Khyber's circle. Not everyone plans of ruling the world, destroying or saving it. Some just want to live in it.
Dex The King
09-11-04, 06:55 PM I'd love to debate the nature of Khyber's power with you Saurenda, but this isn't the place.

Just to clarify, I don't force my PCs to do anything either. I build up plotlines, and they react. How they react, either choosing to be heroes, villains, or something in between, is entirely up to them.

For example, the PCs in my campaign have gone both ways before. When Vadra, self-proclaimed Khyber's heir, tried to unleash the power of the rajah of the Burning Soul, they stopped him. But when High Priest Malevanor of the Blood of Vol offered them power, some of my PCs gladly accepted it (planning to betray him later).

But back to my original point. Most of you, so far, seem to think that the idea of PCs turning evil in Eberron is ok, but they've got their work cut out for them. I agree. And, when it happened with my PCs, everyone thought it was loads of fun.

I don't see any problems with a campaign going that way. For example: if King Boranel suddenly dies, and the issue of succession pops up, I wouldn't have a problem if one of my players decided to seize the throne. If a warforged decides the Lord of Blades works to slowly, and that he could lead the warforged better, I'm not going to stop him from trying.

But I believe Eberron has a potential to produce PCs who are especially inclined to bids for power, aspirations of world domination, or aspirations of world destruction. I think its only a matter of time before some Eberron players make characters who want to rule the world.

After all, whatever soars their airship is good for me.
Saurenda
09-11-04, 09:05 PM I'd love to debate the nature of Khyber's power with you Saurenda, but this isn't the place.

After all, whatever soars their airship is good for me.

So thats it? You've defended your point by simply saying the nature of the villians whom you seem to like so much have nothing to do with Khyber who you can't seem to stop talking about. :rolleyes: They seem to be directly related from what I have read in the ECS.

I don't get it honestly. Who is Vadra? And what are you talking about 'Hier of Khyber', is this all from your own game, or is this something I've missed from reading the boards, and book?

I suppose most Pcs wouldn't choose this is because there are alternatives to power.
Neofish
09-11-04, 09:24 PM True heros don't give into greed, most adventurers do.

just remember, "there's always a bigger fish"-Qui-gon-jin (sp?)

and in my games, i'm that fish.
Dex The King
09-11-04, 09:44 PM Im terribly sorry to confuse you so Saurenda, but whenever I diverge itno things like that, I speak in example. Those are from my campaign, and I will label them as so, and endeavor to be more clear in the future.

There are indeed far more methods to power, Khyber is simply my favorite. If you want me to explain my full opinion on the subject of Khyber, his fiends, and their powers, I'd love to, but that would be off topic for my thread here. Just ask, and I'll be happy to do it somewhere else.

I apologize if I've confused anyone else.
Ectoplasmoid
09-12-04, 10:36 AM Personally, I have no problem with my PCs going for the whole world domination/salvation thing. (In fact, if I could play in an Eberron campaign, I would minmax a kalashtar psion to immense power, and ally with Xor'Chylic and his monstrous allies to purge Khyber-for now and all time. This would have the added side benefit of sliencing Dex The King. :D )
The only problem is, they'd actually have to do it- Meaning a path fraught by intrigue, assasination attempts, parties of good adventurers, and plain old unmitigated evil. (A smart party could still pull it off)

However, I think it much more intersesting to have them play "shades of gray" characters- like the BoV cleric who truly believes, the draconian but caring vigilante, or an inquisitor of the silver flame. These characters offer the chance for organic character growth and development more than evil masterminds, especially the inquisitor.

Why? Because nobody exepcts the Thranish Inquisition!
__________________
Saurenda
09-12-04, 12:36 PM Why? Because nobody exepcts the Thranish Inquisition!
__________________

That's so good. ^^ to the signature with you.
Ectoplasmoid
09-12-04, 01:46 PM I was kind of hoping that that nugget would make it to somebody's sig list at some point- just saving it for the right moment. God bless Michael Palin.
Flame_Drake
09-12-04, 02:08 PM Why? Because nobody exepcts the Thranish Inquisition!
__________________

Ecto, I'm going to add this to my sig

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dex The King 09-11-04, 03:04 PM	I believe I may have come up with something big. I came upon it when I was planning how to release Khyber's power, which I discussed with Wotc_Doog on one thread, and discussed with others on the What would you do in Eberron board. Eberron has a great deal of plots, schemes, organizations, but also ways to gain vast amounts of power. There is a bit of a vacuum of high-level power in Khorvaire, at least. This is the cause of one of my favorite Eberron feature: the fact that the PCs are the heroes. When something threatens the world, the PCs are the ones to stop it, as no one else can. But what if the PCs don't want to save the world, and instead want to rule it? As examples, if the PCs start as heroes, and stop the Emerald Claw or the Aurum from recovering the vile artifact, what's to prevent them from using it? If there is a method to take the power of the rajahs, why not use it yourself? If the Blood of Vol turns its finest acloytes into powerful undead, why not become one? I want to know if any of you have seen things this way. For example, when you read the living breastplate, did you want one? Did you admire the powers of Khyber and seek to release them as I have suggested numerous times? Did you dream of conquering the Five Nations and renaming them after yourchildren?
Hellcow 09-11-04, 04:01 PM	And Keith, did you have evil PCs somewhere in your mind when you created Eberron? I need to start catching up on the Ask Keith thread. Ask me there, and I'll cross post here when I get to it. ;)
Brastan 09-11-04, 04:06 PM	I haven't seen artifact grabbing yet for world domination, however... One of my players is inserted in creating a pirate air fleet and another is working towards taking over and reuniting house Cannith. Am I worried that they will become villains? No way, it just means that I have more things to do to them. I would guess that some villain players don't understand is that they have more enemy and mover chances to die then good guys. As a general rule heros don't kill heros. The flip side is villains kill villains all the time. Villainous players in my campaign will suffer like all villains in my worlds do, with backstabbing, fights with good and evil force, and general harassment from there good aligned fellows. I see the PCs as the bench mark for power in the world (for each gaming groups own adventuring). There is no one better then them (higher level) who is interested in adventuring. At there level or lower you have up coming heros all across world who could step up if the PCs fall (replacement characters). These can also be pressed into service as good aligned antagonists. Also if they want to keep powerful artifacts in their possession they'd better be ready when more people come busting down there door looking for it. :D As for the two players of mine, I like the Artifice trying to take control of house Cannith its a cool plot device, especially when his current benefactor is the guy running house Cannith South( the one who won't stop making Warforged). The Air pirate, :shrug: he'll probably give up the idea once he gets an airship of his own.
Solwynn 09-11-04, 04:55 PM	Could the PC's fill the power vacuum, become the "bad guys" and start taking over? Sure! But there's many a slip between the cup and the lip and planning on taking over and actually doing it are two different things. Maybe the PC's need to stop a villain from using a powerful magical device that kills thousands of people at once. They defeat the villain and are left with this device, still ready to be set off. Then, in the name of assumedly good cause, they use this one-shot device to attack a known evil. Maybe some innocents get caught in its effects but you still manage to deal a mortal blow to an evil orgainization. Fine. Then in your next chapter have other villainous organizations come rushing in to fill the power vacuum, too! The players have cripped one organization only to provide an opening for three others. Plus maybe they have created some good-aligned enemies who know nothing of the evil the PCs destroyed - they only want to bring the PCs to justice or perhaps enact revenge. Situations in which the players have to make a choice that define their PCs make the game more interesting. What WOULD they do if they had a device of incredible power at their fingertips and a hoard of enemies before them? Maybe they would destroy the device for the good of all. Maybe they would use it for what they perceive to be good. Maybe they would sell it off to the highest bidder. Who knows? But whatever decision they make gives you, the DM, an opening for further adventure. Make whatever decision they make have a benefit (they've earned it afterall by defeating the evildoer that was going to use it in the first place) but also make an enexpected downside. Things end badly in Eberron scenarios - not because its tragic by nature, but because it furthers the suspense and continues the drama. The heroes are never out of the woods for long. Kyber has the potential to unleash great power, true. But as they say in the Spiderman movies: :teach: "With great power comes great responsibility." The PCs can tamper with this power but if they do they may bite off more than they can chew. :D
WotC_Doog 09-11-04, 05:23 PM	And if the evil-leaning party in campaign #1 hoses up your Eberron really badly, all the better -- then the new, good-leaning party in campaign #2 has their work cut out for them straightening it all out again. :)
Saurenda 09-11-04, 05:27 PM	I'm not forcing my pcs to do anything good or bad. Sor far they have made decisions to improve thier own lives at the expense of others, and for the benefit of others. I'm not expecting a straight an narrow path from them, and at the same time not the path of ultimate evil. For the most part they simply do what is in thier best interests, and on occasion an evil act here and there, espically noting one of an addictive drug I put int he King's forest which the Jungle Boys cultivated, and the Knight Rangers wanted to put a stop too. Thats just an example. I'm sure at times they do not care for the NPCs of the world, but at the same time they are attached to quite a few people who have given them jobs to begin with, including Elaydren. As for your own invovlement with wanting to unleash the powers of Khyber and all that, that you haven't stopped talk about for weeks now more power to you I guess. But when Khyber is unleashed the world destroyed, you'll have no place to put all your artifacts, much less any power or supposed immortaliy will do you is survive to see a burnt out world just before it crumbles to nothing, and all living creature including evil ones will die all the same essentially burning themselves out to dust. All we are is dust in the wind by Kansas. That's a song that a Rakshasa in duisguse as a human often sings to the my PCs. Wether or not the minions of destruction accept thier own inevtiable destruction is uncreation. No amount of agreeing with you or disgreeing with you will make you stop wanting it. But I am sure not all 'bad guys' feel the same about your position. Some like how things are now, I am sure. Why change a good thing after all? Without Khyber to much everything up they can live up thier immortality and cause that pain and destruction they like so much if only in little amounts. And yes I am sure that it varies from villian to villian in and out of Khyber's circle. Not everyone plans of ruling the world, destroying or saving it. Some just want to live in it.
Dex The King 09-11-04, 06:55 PM	I'd love to debate the nature of Khyber's power with you Saurenda, but this isn't the place. Just to clarify, I don't force my PCs to do anything either. I build up plotlines, and they react. How they react, either choosing to be heroes, villains, or something in between, is entirely up to them. For example, the PCs in my campaign have gone both ways before. When Vadra, self-proclaimed Khyber's heir, tried to unleash the power of the rajah of the Burning Soul, they stopped him. But when High Priest Malevanor of the Blood of Vol offered them power, some of my PCs gladly accepted it (planning to betray him later). But back to my original point. Most of you, so far, seem to think that the idea of PCs turning evil in Eberron is ok, but they've got their work cut out for them. I agree. And, when it happened with my PCs, everyone thought it was loads of fun. I don't see any problems with a campaign going that way. For example: if King Boranel suddenly dies, and the issue of succession pops up, I wouldn't have a problem if one of my players decided to seize the throne. If a warforged decides the Lord of Blades works to slowly, and that he could lead the warforged better, I'm not going to stop him from trying. But I believe Eberron has a potential to produce PCs who are especially inclined to bids for power, aspirations of world domination, or aspirations of world destruction. I think its only a matter of time before some Eberron players make characters who want to rule the world. After all, whatever soars their airship is good for me.
Saurenda 09-11-04, 09:05 PM	I'd love to debate the nature of Khyber's power with you Saurenda, but this isn't the place. After all, whatever soars their airship is good for me. So thats it? You've defended your point by simply saying the nature of the villians whom you seem to like so much have nothing to do with Khyber who you can't seem to stop talking about. :rolleyes: They seem to be directly related from what I have read in the ECS. I don't get it honestly. Who is Vadra? And what are you talking about 'Hier of Khyber', is this all from your own game, or is this something I've missed from reading the boards, and book? I suppose most Pcs wouldn't choose this is because there are alternatives to power.
Neofish 09-11-04, 09:24 PM	True heros don't give into greed, most adventurers do. just remember, "there's always a bigger fish"-Qui-gon-jin (sp?) and in my games, i'm that fish.
Dex The King 09-11-04, 09:44 PM	Im terribly sorry to confuse you so Saurenda, but whenever I diverge itno things like that, I speak in example. Those are from my campaign, and I will label them as so, and endeavor to be more clear in the future. There are indeed far more methods to power, Khyber is simply my favorite. If you want me to explain my full opinion on the subject of Khyber, his fiends, and their powers, I'd love to, but that would be off topic for my thread here. Just ask, and I'll be happy to do it somewhere else. I apologize if I've confused anyone else.
Ectoplasmoid 09-12-04, 10:36 AM	Personally, I have no problem with my PCs going for the whole world domination/salvation thing. (In fact, if I could play in an Eberron campaign, I would minmax a kalashtar psion to immense power, and ally with Xor'Chylic and his monstrous allies to purge Khyber-for now and all time. This would have the added side benefit of sliencing Dex The King. :D ) The only problem is, they'd actually have to do it- Meaning a path fraught by intrigue, assasination attempts, parties of good adventurers, and plain old unmitigated evil. (A smart party could still pull it off) However, I think it much more intersesting to have them play "shades of gray" characters- like the BoV cleric who truly believes, the draconian but caring vigilante, or an inquisitor of the silver flame. These characters offer the chance for organic character growth and development more than evil masterminds, especially the inquisitor. Why? Because nobody exepcts the Thranish Inquisition! __________________
Saurenda 09-12-04, 12:36 PM	Why? Because nobody exepcts the Thranish Inquisition! __________________ That's so good. ^^ to the signature with you.
Ectoplasmoid 09-12-04, 01:46 PM	I was kind of hoping that that nugget would make it to somebody's sig list at some point- just saving it for the right moment. God bless Michael Palin.
Flame_Drake 09-12-04, 02:08 PM	Why? Because nobody exepcts the Thranish Inquisition! __________________ Ecto, I'm going to add this to my sig