Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thievingrouge 10-05-05, 08:19 PM	Hello, fellows! I wanted to see if I could find out if there is such a thing as a powergaming Eberron fans, such as myself. I don't want any problems, but I seem to notice alot of hate in Eberron circles for fans like myself. Thank you.
Inkling 10-05-05, 08:42 PM	I agree. I've learned to keep my powermonger posts on the Character Optimization thread instead of the Eberron threads, otherwise I get a really nasty response. There's probably only a few overly-vocal Eberron fans with low single-digit Chr scores and no points in Diplomacy (and No Sense of Humor as a Flaw) on the Eberron threads but they do stand out. For power gaming questions, I'd stick with the Character Optimization thread. Lots of people there play Eberron now, so you should get decent responses.
Thievingrouge 10-05-05, 08:58 PM	Right, but so much of the CO deals with the FR junk. My real thought is "Why are we a "Minority?"
Inkling 10-05-05, 09:02 PM	Right, but so much of the CO deals with the FR junk. My real thought is "Why are we a "Minority?"The instinct to excel in all endeavors is a rare thing I guess... (that'll get some responses out of the mob heh heh).
Gurv 10-05-05, 09:17 PM	Right, but so much of the CO deals with the FR junk. My real thought is "Why are we a "Minority?" Well, if you're noticing a link between FR and a tendency to think in terms of CO, then you won't get any argument from me. I think that the reason you see less of it on the Eberron boards isn't that there is no place for CO in Eberron, but rather that there is so much more to discuss in the setting that optimizing kind of falls to the background. The instinct to excel in all endeavors is a rare thing I guess... (that'll get some responses out of the mob heh heh). The instinct to excel in all endeavors is actually a common thing, found in all but the most apathetic creatures. Actually succeeding, on the other hand, is incredibly rare. Much more of a rarity than the CO boards would suggest, in my opinion. In real life, people are rarely so perfect. And in the pulp genre, it is often an emphasis on the failings of a character that makes the story, not a focus on their strengths. Eberron is that kind of setting, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that those who enjoy it do not place a high priority on CO. Oh, and "get some responses out of the mob" sounds oddly like trolling. You wouldn't do that though, I'm sure. Because we don't feed trolls here.
Thievingrouge 10-05-05, 09:33 PM	I think that the reason you see less of it on the Eberron boards isn't that there is no place for CO in Eberron I would beg-to-differ. I am a power gamer. I love Eberron. I love my dice. I exist as one with the world...wait... no I don't... Eberron has some of the greatest power gaming potential. when more work comes out, it could easily be as "mathematically inclined" friendly. In Eberron you are supposed to be the premier heros. I find it hard to believe you can be all pulpy-cool and such, if your character is built so much around his/her/its flavor, that they forget about things like combat, and focus on talking to a guy. Of course diplomatically optimised forms exist, but you get myt point. "I'm a wizard from Aundair, who has mastered the secrets of <insert really obscure rules potential>" The new race presented (You know which one..) is almost a CO dream.
Majorafire77 10-05-05, 09:50 PM	In Eberron you are supposed to be the premier heros. I find it hard to believe you can be all pulpy-cool and such, if your character is built so much around his/her/its flavor, that they forget about things like combat, and focus on talking to a guy. Of course diplomatically optimised forms exist, but you get myt point. "I'm a wizard from Aundair, who has mastered the secrets of <insert really obscure rules potential>" The new race presented (You know which one..) is almost a CO dream. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't Eberron supposed to be as much about pulp action as it is about noir intrigues and plots? IMO the ideal campaign is one that balances both aspects of the setting, dealing with shady characters and twisted plots in some parts while having a battle where one wrong move can spell defeat in another. I think that's what Eberron is all about. And by the way, Eberron is just as much a CO dream as the core rules are. The MM3 and RoE both introduced the four new Eberron races to the core rules, and they are officially not just Eberron races anymore. So, I think that all discussion of character optimization, powergaming, "muchkinism", and other stuff like that should be restricted to the CO board which was created for people who enjoy those sorts of things.
anarco_rata 10-05-05, 10:02 PM	I really don't see the point in playing eberron if you only want to fight other beigns just because they're green and you're not. If you like throwing dice and fighting so much then do a colliseum. The great thing about eberron and 70% of the contents of the campaign setting book is background...an incredible background. By eberron standars, just having a class is heroic enough. Why do you rather play eberron than a homebrew world, a lot less complex and a lot more straight forward? kill things, get payed for it, raise level. it's ok if you like this things above roleplaying (i guess...) but why on eberron?
Inkling 10-05-05, 10:35 PM	Oh, and "get some responses out of the mob" sounds oddly like trolling. You wouldn't do that though, I'm sure. Because we don't feed trolls here.Oooo the troll-claws are out now! Tonight on Jerry Springer: Troll-on-Troll fighting!
zambuka 10-05-05, 10:50 PM	The instinct to excel in all endeavors is a rare thing I guess... (that'll get some responses out of the mob heh heh). I'll give some perspective from the point of view of someone who dislikes powergaming and has experienced more than his share of power gamers and power builds. Powergamers, in my experience, are more interested in playing the system rather than involving themselves in the game. Squeezing out an extra point of damage from a "build" is more important to the powergamer than whether their character actually has.. well.. character. From experience some power gamers don't care about their character and would quite happily let it die, or even kill it off deliberately, just so they can try out their next power build. Most of the rest build their optimised character because they feel they have to win the game against the DM and often the other players. As for the excelling at all endeavors thing: from my experience the powergamer creates his power build not to excell at all challenges, rather he builds so that nothing can challenge him. It is not about putting in the effort and excelling against all the challenges the game presents, it is about not having to try in the first place. I am quite sure that many who dislike powergamers and optimised builds have had the same, or at least similar, experiences I have dealt with over the last 20 years of gaming (most of that as DM). The player that makes an all 10 character work has more respect from me than the player whose 1st level character delivers 50 point criticals every third or fourth hit. Edit: Additionally the powergamer can often be identified beforehand by the vast quantity of 3rd party source books, noteably those from Mongoose Publishing.
Inkling 10-05-05, 11:13 PM	So, I think that all discussion of character optimization, powergaming, "muchkinism", and other stuff like that should be restricted to the CO board which was created for people who enjoy those sorts of things.Oop there it is folks...hear that Thievingrogue? The game Nazi says there's a "right" way of playing Eberron and any questions about optimizing your Eberron character need to be RESTRICTED to the CO board. Anyone caught discussing ways to optimize Eberron characters on the Eberron boards will be severely punished. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Thanks for all your replies guys, you've completely proved Thievingrogue's point.
zambuka 10-06-05, 01:19 AM	In Eberron you are supposed to be the premier heros. I find it hard to believe you can be all pulpy-cool and such, if your character is built so much around his/her/its flavor, that they forget about things like combat, and focus on talking to a guy. Of course diplomatically optimised forms exist, but you get myt point. "I'm a wizard from Aundair, who has mastered the secrets of <insert really obscure rules potential>" The new race presented (You know which one..) is almost a CO dream. I find it hard to believe you can be all cool and pulpy and such if your character is built so much around squeezing out an extra point of damage or gaining that one extra hitpoint or point of AC that they forget about things like personality, quirks and weaknesses, or a good mix of skills and abilities that make different encounters interesting. "I'm a wizard from Aundair, who has mastered the secrets of <insert really obscure rules potential>" will inevitably end up as a one trick pony that has no role in the party outside blowing up the next badguy, and the player will often end up frustrated and disruptive when they can't use their one trick in every single encounter. I find optimised character builds often just don't have enough breadth of skills and abilities to make interesting and useful heroes.
allenchan 10-06-05, 01:48 AM	FR is more used in CO because it has more books, plan and simple. Given time, Eberron will be used more in CO. And of course there are powergaming Eberron fans. I mean, the Artificier, anyone? Its simply, mind-numbingly beautiful.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 10-06-05, 02:04 AM	Simply put, playing for the sole purpose of being powerful is well-nigh pointless. If all that brings you to the game is the big numbers your character can generate, then you might as well be rolling dice by yourself. The thing with Eberron is that it's sort of a "fragile" setting, and it works best when people spend more time developing their character than developing their character's build. Note that I said "best", not that that is the right way to play Eberron, or even D&D in general. Hell, even I powergame on occasion, but only with an appropriate concept. Right now I have an epic level true Necromancer in Forgotten Realms that can personally control about 280 HD of Undead- and yes, I *****d the hell out of Libris Mortis. But that's the Realms, where you NEED to be powerful to make any kind of difference. Eberron is rigged on a slightly more delicate balance- even a low-level character can make a big difference. It doesn't take a power build to save the world.
a_psh 10-06-05, 03:45 AM	FR is more used in CO because it has more books, plan and simple. Given time, Eberron will be used more in CO. Exactly. You're just not gonna get a lot of powergaming builds out of one core class, a few five-level PrCs, and the action point system compared to, say, what you get ouf ot just one class splatbook. What interests me about Eberron is that there's a lot more reason to have optimized level 5 or level 10 builds rather than crazy level-20 juggernauts of spiked-chain destruction running around. I feel like there's a lot more potential for powergaming with real characters having interesting adventures at reasonable levels that practically every campaign should expect to see rather than pipe-dreaming about high-level demigods, and Eberron sets up a world where this is possible. It has made me really enjoy making stats for first-level non-elite commoner conscripts as a little DMing exercise, for example ;)
The White Sorcerer 10-06-05, 04:00 AM	Good character = fluff and crunch. Find the balance.
Brastan 10-06-05, 12:19 PM	Agreed a_psh. When you start at level one and have to play through it's important to have a stronger character at the lower levels then to receive all of your power blasty goodness at levels 15+. I notice that most of the stuff on CO is not geared toward a balanced character every level. Although it's always nice to have an idea of were your going with the character. Actually the most important optimization I see in Eberron is party based. There are other forms of optimization then just combat power. Those might not stand out as much as that Wand Artificer of flashy overpowered death.
Sir Elton 10-06-05, 12:28 PM	I'm a method actor. I worry less about the Crunch, and worry more about how well I can play said character. :)
hiryuu 10-06-05, 01:49 PM	Oop there it is folks...hear that Thievingrogue? The game Nazi says there's a "right" way of playing Eberron and any questions about optimizing your Eberron character need to be RESTRICTED to the CO board. Anyone caught discussing ways to optimize Eberron characters on the Eberron boards will be severely punished. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Thanks for all your replies guys, you've completely proved Thievingrogue's point. Straw man, then ad hominem. He said "It think" and "should be", those sound like opinions to me. Heck, he never said there was even a "right" way to play Eberron. __________ On a side note, you should have an effective character. However, effective does not mean "squeeze everything out of the rules you can." That's, as others have said, playing the system and not the game. As much fun as it is to play the system, when it comes time to game, I prefer to do what sounds cool and makes sense, as opposed to trying to milk the numbers for all that it's worth. And you know what? I usually still end up with a pretty effective character, like, say, the touch-spell status effect based necromancer, or the halberd-using fighter; both of those ended up much better than I thought they would be at first glance. It's Eberron! Just having a level in a PC class makes you better than the average! Of course, being uber-powerful in Eberron means you have uber-powerful people who are going to be breathing down your neck to manipulate or destroy you. Never underestimate the power of large groups with centuries-old magical artifacts.
Euangelion 10-06-05, 01:56 PM	I was leery about them at first, but this is exactly why I like action points. They really allow a player the freedom to go with story-based character development rather than stat-based character development without feeling that they'll be annihilated the moment they step out of the tavern if they don't make their character as powerful as possible stat-wise.
Godspeed Silent Emperor 10-06-05, 02:04 PM	The great thing about eberron and 70% of the contents of the campaign setting book is background...an incredible background. I'm coming from a completly other background than most Eberron-gamers here, i guess. I'm not familiar with any of the (A)D&D worlds, not even FR. I started with the FASA-games, both Shadowrun and Earthdawn, which both have a very complex, detailed and colourful backgrund. And 70% of the released stuff is background, so i'm wondering that is such a new thing for D&D-players. That's the way it should be, right? Only some rules and a lot more content, fluff, howeveryouwillcall it. Powergaming is probably possible in Eberron (you don't know my fellow gamer who playes a half-orc cleric with Str 20 and acts like a savage barbarian, being an unstoppable fighting machine) as in any other setting. It all comes down to the DM and his players. They have to talk about their expectations and try to find a common ground. Works fine in my groups. :)
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-06-05, 02:34 PM	I blame the FR novels. The uber-NPCs are power-gamers, in the novels, and some (many, I think) Eberron fans jumped from FR to Eberron to avoid that kind of thing. FR-influenced threads draw a lot of angry but informed commentary from Eberron fans because many used to be FR fans, but got tired of it. So, when someone says they want to play a powerful character, Eberron fans who used to be FR fans might think this is not appropriate for the setting. Ironically, the NPC stats for 3e FR characters are lame when it comes to powergaming, coming nowhere near the abilities of characters displayed in the novels. Eberron is new. I wonder how many DMs are scared of artificers. They're powerful, but an experienced DM can deal with them. However, most Eberron DMs have little experience with artificers. (Same thing with 3.5 psionics.) Some DMs may see power-gamers as taking advantage of holes in the DM's knowledge. (Same thing with 3.5 psionics. :mad: ) Some FR books had a bad habit of being crunch-heavy, with really unbalanced crunch, at least in 3.0. The Archmage and Incantatrix both came from FR, and those are some of the most broken PrCs I've ever seen. As a result, FR looks like a power-gamer friendly setting. It could also be that power-gaming draws heat on a lot of forums, but draw less heat on FR boards.
Thievingrouge 10-06-05, 02:38 PM	I find it hard to believe you can be all cool and pulpy and such if your character is built so much around squeezing out an extra point of damage or gaining that one extra hitpoint or point of AC that they forget about things like personality, quirks and weaknesses, or a good mix of skills and abilities that make different encounters interesting. You can afford to do something out of the ordinary. Normally jumping on large giants (A very cool sight) is dumb, and will get you killed. And where do yo get this "one-trick pony" idea? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't Eberron supposed to be as much about pulp action as it is about noir intrigues and plots? IMO the ideal campaign is one that balances both aspects of the setting, dealing with shady characters and twisted plots in some parts while having a battle where one wrong move can spell defeat in another. I think that's what Eberron is all about. And by the way, Eberron is just as much a CO dream as the core rules are. The MM3 and RoE both introduced the four new Eberron races to the core rules, and they are officially not just Eberron races anymore. So, I think that all discussion of character optimization, powergaming, "muchkinism", and other stuff like that should be restricted to the CO board which was created for people who enjoy those sorts of things. All of which lead to more frightening-than-usual combat. Powergamers (other than me) can roleplay. I said it was good for CO. Why does this belong on CO, I'm not asking how to make a great character, or whoah'ing over a combonation, I'm just asking for a reason why powergamers are not embraced (Err, as much as we can be..) in the newest setting. Oop there it is folks...hear that Thievingrogue? The game Nazi says there's a "right" way of playing Eberron and any questions about optimizing your Eberron character need to be RESTRICTED to the CO board. Anyone caught discussing ways to optimize Eberron characters on the Eberron boards will be severely punished. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Thanks for all your replies guys, you've completely proved Thievingrogue's point. Dude, don't flame. He is right though, asking how to optimise is for the COB. I just don't understand why when someone does a thing for the crunch, why so many people shout out to them "Do it for RP not crunch!" FR is more used in CO because it has more books, plan and simple. Given time, Eberron will be used more in CO. And of course there are powergaming Eberron fans. I mean, the Artificier, anyone? Its simply, mind-numbingly beautiful. Right, I knew that. The great thing about eberron and 70% of the contents of the campaign setting book is background...an incredible background. So is nearly every other book.
Thievingrouge 10-06-05, 02:41 PM	Eberron is new. I wonder how many DMs are scared of artificers. They're powerful, but an experienced DM can deal with them. However, most Eberron DMs have little experience with artificers. (Same thing with 3.5 psionics.) Some DMs may see power-gamers as taking advantage of holes in the DM's knowledge. (Same thing with 3.5 psionics. ) That is the DM's problem. I've remedied that by reading. Of course I'm in the (I think it is small) group that dosen't believe in rule 0 at the table.
Straylight 10-06-05, 03:22 PM	The simplest answer to your question, Thievingrogue, about why there's so much hate for the CO people on the Eberron boards is that the Eberron boards are populated by people who prefer to play the game rather than the rules. That's it. That is the only difference, and it is the only reason why the optimizers get so much trouble here. Eberron is no better or worse for powergaming than FR is, because the flavor of your gameworld is dependent entirely on who is sitting at your table and what they believe. I respect the CO people. They do things with characters that I didn't think were possible, and I respect their knack for getting as much out of the system as they can. ...all I ask is that they respect the fact that I don't give a carp about the rules so long as the story is interesting. Unfortunately, I see less of that respect returned from the optimizers than I would like (and I'm sure the optimizers will say the same about the roleplayers). Whatever your playstyle is, is fine. It isn't right, it isn't wrong: it's yours, and it works for you. We all need to realize that our playstyle is our own, and everybody has a different playstyle. I've long been of the opinion that the most important part of a good group is finding one that has a playstyle that yours gets along with -not the same style as yours, but one that you can work with. Optimizers: roleplayers don't necessarily not care about their builds, but they are willing to sacrifice power for the sake of the story. It takes a lot of guts to walk into a fight knowing you've got a weak build, and a lot of talent as a player to walk back out again. Roleplayers: Optimizers don't necessarily not care about the story, but they are willing to sacrifice immersion for the sake of the challenge. It takes a lot of talent to build and play an optimized character, and even more to keep immersion while doing it. There are bad eggs on both sides, and it is from these vocal minorities that a lot of the problems arise. Accept that our styles are differenct and play the game your way with a group that supports your style, whatever it may be. There's no point to the flames, unless we want s'mores.
Thievingrouge 10-06-05, 03:26 PM	There's no point to the flames, unless we want s'mores. Did I flame somebody? Sorry.
MrFilthyIke 10-06-05, 04:34 PM	Right, but so much of the CO deals with the FR junk. My real thought is "Why are we a "Minority?" Depends on who you ask. I don't normally discuss "power-maxing" stuff, but I can power game if needed. I *usually* choose not to (unless it old school hack 'n slash - then it's on) as I prefer to ROLE play...but there is satidfaction in being a badass that can whoopass. :D
Moria 10-06-05, 04:50 PM	I also believe both extremes miss a lot of the fun of the game. For me, the best way to enjoy DnD is playing with a well developed AND optimized character. I have found that playing a PC with history, motivation, and personality but lousy optimization is frustrating, since it often fails at what he is supposed to be good at. And in the other side, a fully optimized PC without anything else soon get boring.
Just another user 10-06-05, 05:18 PM	If the Gm play it right you don't need CO in Eberron. A Fighter of any level is already one of the best combatants in a world wher the large part of soldiers have only Warrior levels, plus being a PC means that unlike NPC you have the potential to reach the 20th level where NPCs are lucky if they go over the 3rd. To add CO to this is overkill, IMHO. OTOH in other settings (no names) where a city guard can easily be 10th CO have a little more sense.
Elderich 10-06-05, 06:51 PM	Is this a ying vs yang or a temperature thing? I suggest that CO, like temperature, is a one dimensional scale; not a balance issue. I suggest that Role playing is the same. This would suggest a traditional Cartesian plane to perform analysis. I much prefer Optimized Role and Rules characters. This is of course much more difficult than just telling an enjoyable story. I humbly suggest this is why it is rarer. Telling a story is easy. Recalling, understanding and using hundreds of different rules to get good support for the story is exponentially more difficult.
Inkling 10-06-05, 09:35 PM	I just don't see why you can't be a power gamer AND a good role gamer. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. I'm thinking of the spaghetti westerns with Clint Eastwood. They are very pulp action and also have a lot of noir qualities to them (despite being filmed in the blazing sun)...in other words "very Eberron". Every movie is about a guy who's power maxed himself into the "best gun in the west" uber-build category and he's very cool and the stories are great fun.
REN 10-06-05, 11:09 PM	I felt compelled to chime in here... I just don't see why you can't be a power gamer AND a good role gamer. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. From my past experiences, you can be both, but most people are either one or the other. I'm not a power gamer and forbid it from my game. I actually 'interview' potential new players to weed out power gamers. Not because it is WRONG or BAD but because it doesn't appeal to me. As a non rules savy DM but more of a story driven / role playing DM and player, I can not deal with rules lawyers and power gamers. I have been in situations where I've been completely bored or frustrated thereby had a horrible time playing the game I love - all because others prefer to MIN/MAX and basically POWER GAME. So I choose not to have such players around. Some of these people I know are still friends, but we can not game together. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER - OR BOTH!! Also, somewhere in this thread, the original poster questions if he 'FLAMED' anyone. I don't think he did. I also believe that he has every right to discuss POWER GAMING with fellow EBERRON players so why not allow him to post his question and leave it at that? I too wanted to start a thread trying to come up with ideas to avoid or perhaps deter power gamers, but didn't because I know I would have gotten the same type of replies. Maybe I will! One more point... Eberron is fairly new, so perhaps the power gamers aren't really evident just yet. Give it some more time. Anyhow, Eberron power gamers unite, and I won't be there - but that's OK! ;)
Inkling 10-06-05, 11:59 PM	I have been in situations where I've been completely bored or frustrated thereby had a horrible time playing the game I love - all because others prefer to MIN/MAX and basically POWER GAME. So I choose not to have such players around. Some of these people I know are still friends, but we can not game together.But what specifically do you dislike about "power gaming"? I'm not being facetious, I'm generally curious. Actually this question is for everyone. I'm guessing you guys hate the number-crunching or the endless studying of the rule books? Do you hate the endless tactical analysis and strategy discussions? I remember being in this one game team where we would spend a good 10 minutes discussing how we would open a door (unfortunately I'm not exaggerating). The DM always took it in stride and went for a snack or b-break when we would go into a tactical huddle, but there was this one guy who would just go ape-s*** about it. He always wanted to get a move on and shout at the bad guys in dwarvish or whatever and he didn't want to "waste time" on strategy or tactics. But for us, that WAS the game: trying to find the edge, strategizing, coming up with brilliant schemes, outwitting the bad guys. And of course smart character design was just a natural part of it. You can't walk into hostile territory talking all about who your mommy and daddy was or what your costume looks like, but not think about how you're going to handle dangerous or complicated situations. I guess I grew up on Xmen comics where it always showed a group of (literal) mutants who learned how to work together as an incredible team and even a family and learned how to maximize their strengths and minimize each other's weaknesses to solve problems and tackle enemies. They were always training and honing their skills and looking for ways to improve themselves (what some people call "power gaming"). Some people think the point of D&D is to be a community theater and practice some acting skills or focus on their angst and generate all kinds of drama, but for me and my friends it was always about working together as a team to solve problems (and kick the crap out of our enemies). Why would you want to ban that? Why would you not want to work with a team like that? How is that "not Eberron"?
zambuka 10-07-05, 12:18 AM	I just don't see why you can't be a power gamer AND a good role gamer. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. There is no reason why you can't be both. The problem is, that is so rarely the case. The power gamer rarely has an interest in the game beyond making their character more powerful or trying out their next build. Finding that +# vorpal short of sharpness to complete his uber build is more important than the game itself. It is just so hard to find a powergamer that actually has an interest in the game beyond stats and the next fight that many DMs just dont like having them in a group. The two styles of play are not mutually exclusive, just for some reason they are qualities you almost never find both of in a single person. I'm thinking of the spaghetti westerns with Clint Eastwood. They are very pulp action and also have a lot of noir qualities to them (despite being filmed in the blazing sun)...in other words "very Eberron". Every movie is about a guy who's power maxed himself into the "best gun in the west" uber-build category and he's very cool and the stories are great fun. The best ones are the stories of the Hero who is not the best gun in the west but wins because of friends, loyalty and a liberal helping of good luck and a cunning plan (Three Amigos, silly but suitably pulpish. Any episode of Firefly, a great space western). Trouble is also that games are not movies, the maxed out movie character is almost always a one trick pony that falls to bit in every situation where his one trick isn't useful, and the movie focuses solely on where his one trick is useful. In a game that one trick and the lack of ability to do anything else can really ruin the fun for the rest of the group (experienced that far far too many times). Not to mention the movie hero is usually well into an adventuring career with many years and "levels" of experience. The power gamer typically wants to be the best gun in the west at first level at the beginning of their career, the power gamer rarely wants to actually work his way to being the best and prefers to start there. Sure the odd encounter where you get to show off that you are the "best gun in the west" is fun, but it gets tiresome when the only way for that one character to be any use is putting him in a situation where he can be "the best gun in the west" every second session. It's even worse when the player with that gunfighter optimised build goes out of his way to make every encounter a noontime showdown (once again from experience the power gamer will inevitably do this, out of boredom because his character is useless in any other situation or just out of spite, to the detriment of everyone else involved). On the other hand, a group consisting solely of power gamers, gathered for the sole purpose of power gaming. Power builds are great fun for one offs and short term campaigns, so they have their place, just I don't see them belonging in a long term campaign where anything and everything can happen. Power gaming has its place, just many don't see it as compatible with the pulp/noir feeling Eberron. Power gamers, you are welcome to unite, just don't expect everyone to enjoy and share your opinions ;) We could do with a dedicated Eberron CO forum.
Radkres 10-07-05, 12:25 AM	Ten minutes talking about how to open the door! Guess it must have been some door. That’s about the time I pull out the egg timer and say you got three minutes to decide what your doing Go! Start timer.
Inkling 10-07-05, 12:38 AM	Ten minutes talking about how to open the door! Guess it must have been some door. That’s about the time I pull out the egg timer and say you got three minutes to decide what your doing Go! Start timer.Yeah, the egg timer ended up being as big a part of our standard gear as the dice. Actually it wasn't so bad, once we developed a fool-proof pattern, we jotted down our usual routines for the DM and he'd roll the dice automatically. EDIT: Actually, I noticed a lot of our ideas in the DMGII...we should have written a book and made some money.(...and of course funneled the money into an offshore publishing company originating in Ireland to take advantage of the favorable tax rates and low wages then use our profits to buy New Zealand treasury bonds...but I digress). The best one was when the DM gave us an empty room to walk through..."You open a door and before you is a long empty room with a door at the far end"...we had to break for the night on that one! hahaha Ended up going back for a goblin to shove into the room. But it was a good thing we didn't rush in, the floor turned out to be a giant mimic.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 10-07-05, 01:21 AM	All tolled, I LOVE building powerful characters... but I almost never actually play them. I'd really rather not. I built an ogre once, centered on getting as many crrits as possible while dual wielding gargantuan mercurial scythes... Thanks to improved crit, hold the line, combat reflexes, oversized two weapon fighting, etc, the thing managed to pull off a per-round damage max of about 3.5k at level 20. And why do I not play that character? Because it would not only be dull as hell (I swing my scythes, do massive damage, enemies die... big whoop), but it would be dull as hell for everyone else in my group. Simply put, when I sit down at the gaming table I'm interrested in storyline, not stats. A good session for me is one where I forget my dicebag and never notice. Sure, it's satisfying to defeat an encounter, but it's even more satisfying to finally be able to retire a character.
Inkling 10-07-05, 01:43 AM	The best ones are the stories of the Hero who is not the best gun in the west but wins because of friends, loyalty and a liberal helping of good luck and a cunning plan (Three Amigos, silly but suitably pulpish.Uh, as you said "just don't expect everyone to enjoy and share your opinions ;) " You've got to see A Fistful of Dollars: "Baxters on one side, Rojos on the other, and me right in the middle...a man could make a lot of money in this town." Now THAT's a powermonger. I think you guys are just confusing boring dummies with power gamers. I've met far more boring community-theater-rejects than boring power-gamers. These "role players" go on and on about why their elf is going adventuring and who their mom and dad is and what color their shoes are...sheesh, fine whatever, what's your plan for tracking down that vampire? Self absorption time is over, lets go adventuring! And how about the "role players" that need to embarrass the hell out of the rest of their friends by insisting on always "speaking in character" while playing at the school picnic tables? Fine, you're a social retard, do you need to broadcast it to the world and bring the rest of us down with you? Half the fun in the game is trying to figure out if your beautiful patron is trying to stab you in the back (and how you can "accidentally" spill holy water on her to see if she's a vampire) or if you can figure out how to get a resurrection spell out of the fussy cleric without having to do a quest for him by using your handy-dandy Charm invocation or how you can get enough money to buy an airship or how you can nuke the most types of monsters with your lightning bolt wand by using artificer's metamagic activation power with energy substitution(sonic). There's way more to power gaming than being a munchkin maker.
LuciferNietzsche 10-07-05, 03:13 AM	I personally don't like the theatre rejects...but I don't like power-gamers either. It's necessary for your character to have a persona and background, or else it's not a character at all. But, not optimizing your character to some degree makes for a useless character when push comes to shove. We had a player who had to use diplomacy or bardic knowledge everytime it was even remotely possible, especially diplomacy to get cheap items and sell items for more than they're worth. Eventually, he changed characters because his character had to leave for a year to join the Chameleon PrC, and his new character didn't have those capabilities. But before then, our DM was wracking his brain trying to get him to quit doing that, and I finally told him, "just make him actually talk it out, and if it's not convincing enough, don't even let him roll" That, I think, is the best way to do it. Then, for all their optimization, they'll still have to role-play. Make role-playing a gateway to the die roll, and if you can't pull it off, you don't get to roll. This doesn't really work in combat, but still... I personally as a DM would require a good reason as to why a character would think to do something like what one might find in a power build. Most of the time, thinking of it in those terms means that most characters won't be doing certain things, because it just wouldn't occur to the character. Power-gaming is usually not a problem in itself, but is rather a symptom of meta-gaming. A power-gamer does something because the player knows about it...not because the character does. I agree that the movies are a bad comparison to the game. You can never make a game character as cool as a movie character, just give up. If you make it with the right abilities, it won't be any fun to play because you'll never fail, and there's no risk. I don't really care one way or the other, a really good friend of mine is a power-gamer, but he can be an excellent role-player too. Just never both at the same time. He once rewound time several times in a row until they finally defeated a specific encounter without losing a single party member. I wanted to strangle him because it took hours for one fight. Conversely, there's another guy in our group who's always in a hurry, and I wanna strangle him too, because he causes us to miss important details sometimes. There are all sorts of sides to the whole issue of role-playing and power-gaming, but I really do feel that power-gaming is just an extension of meta-gaming.
Just another user 10-07-05, 03:31 AM	I just don't see why you can't be a power gamer AND a good role gamer. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. I think that they are, at least in part, mutually exclusive. There is always a moment in the life of a character when you have to choice "the most advantageous choice for my character would be X, but X is something my character would never do" and there you have to choose if being a roleplayer or a min-maxer. In the best of cases is very hard being both, is like being a good <insert role of your favorite sport> and a good <insert another role of your favorite sport>, can you be both? sure , but it is way harder, that's why people usually specialize in only one role at the time. I'm thinking of the spaghetti westerns with Clint Eastwood. They are very pulp action and also have a lot of noir qualities to them (despite being filmed in the blazing sun)...in other words "very Eberron". Every movie is about a guy who's power maxed himself into the "best gun in the west" uber-build category No, these movies are not about a power gamer, they are about a high level character with action points that goes against a bunch of low level goons and a equally high level NPC but without (or with less action points. That's why he wins at the end. :) and he's very cool and the stories are great fun. and if you notice these stories are almost always the same. :)
Just another user 10-07-05, 03:48 AM	Uh, as you said "just don't expect everyone to enjoy and share your opinions ;) " You've got to see A Fistful of Dollars: "Baxters on one side, Rojos on the other, and me right in the middle...a man could make a lot of money in this town." Now THAT's a powermonger. But he is not a power gamer. A true power gamer would never create a gunslinger with such high charisma and intelligence, to not mention all the ranks in bluff and possibly diplomacy he had. That guy was a good shoot but he was not only a good shoot it was a well rounded character and that is something powergamers usually don't build. And note that in the end he din't win because he was the best shoot, he win because he made himself a improvised armor with a sheet of metal else "when a man with a rifle meet a man with a gun...". now his last opponent (the "man with the rifle")? he was a power gamer.
LazarusX 10-07-05, 04:15 AM	Power-Gaming is an itch that pretty much everyone has or will scratch at some point in your roleplaying lives. However, it goes away after a time, because after you are done bending the rules to your every whim, you realize that there is so much more to these games then statistics. And whether you believe you are devoting equal resources to both stats and background/personality, by defining yourself as a power-gamer; you [albeit it might be subconsciously] are leaning towards the statistical side of the matter. It's a rite-of-passage I think all can recognize. In the end, this statement is true: There are only so many ways to make the "best" statistical warrior. But there are countless ways to masterfully roleplay him.
allenchan 10-07-05, 04:31 AM	But he is not a power gamer. A true power gamer would never create a gunslinger with such high charisma and intelligence, to not mention all the ranks in bluff and possibly diplomacy he had. That guy was a good shoot but he was not only a good shoot it was a well rounded character and that is something powergamers usually don't build. And note that in the end he din't win because he was the best shoot, he win because he made himself a improvised armor with a sheet of metal else "when a man with a rifle meet a man with a gun...". now his last opponent (the "man with the rifle")? he was a power gamer. Apaprently you think powergaming means making a character that can only do thousands of damage in a round. And that, sir, is completely absurd. There's powergame builds that maximize Diplomacy into the hundreds, and have charisma as their highest stat. And its friggin easy to make up a good powergame build with a backstory to boot. I think a lot of you are confusing powergamers with munchkins.
boytbpc 10-07-05, 06:40 AM	I'm a power gamer! I love having the most powerful character on the board. My last character (Ur-Priest/Nar-Demonbinder/Black Guard Lich) could have had three pit fiends on the board at all time under his command, but he didn't. I built the character because I wanted to play an evil man who deals with demons and devils in order to become a god. Also, I know my DM thought that I was one of the best role-players in the game. My character was real, he had a story, he had a reason and a purpose. Imagine this, you are your character. You are walking the streets of Sharn. You are crawling through were-rat infested sewers. Wouldn't you search for the best trainer, learn the best technique, know the most powerful and useful spells, buy the best equipment OR would you go in under-prepared, out of shape, with shoddy gear, and with out taking advantage of the resources available. I see making my character as powerful as possible as a nod to realism. Now, onto Eberron not being capable of producing insanely powerful characters. Using only the PHB and the ECS I have created a tenth level Shifter Barbarian/Were-touched Master with a strength and a constitution in the mid-thirties using a twenty-eight point buy. Now if this isn't a power gamers wet dream I don't know what is. Throw in two levels of fighter and follow it up with eight levels of Disciple of Dis (BoVD) and you have one mean mother. I think the argument a lot of people make against power gamers is the same type of argument Ann Rand's characters in Atlas Shrugged made against the successful capitalists. To paraphrase, you are playing two games, one of which you are better at, therefore we must denounce that game as being unworthy of praise and also state that, without evidence of your shortcomings in the other, you are a failure and should not be allowed to play. For any of you who have wasted as much time as I have reading Ann Rand, you will probably think, "WTF?" I know this is a big leap from her original message, but the argument is the same. Anyway, that is my opinion. I hope it is enlightening and enjoyable. Sincerely Boytbpc
LazarusX 10-07-05, 06:53 AM	I'm a power gamer! I love having the most powerful character on the board. My last character (Ur-Priest/Nar-Demonbinder/Black Guard Lich) could have had three pit fiends on the board at all time under his command, but he didn't. I built the character because I wanted to play an evil man who deals with demons and devils in order to become a god. Also, I know my DM thought that I was the best role-player in the game. My character was real, he had a story, he had a reason and a purpose. Imagine this, you are your character. You are walking the streets of Sharn. You are crawling through were-rat infested sewers. Wouldn't you search for the best trainer, learn the best technique, know the most powerful and useful spells, buy the best equipment OR would you go in under-prepared, out of shape, with shoddy gear, and with out taking advantage of the resources available. I see making my character as powerful as possible as a nod to realism. Now, onto Eberron not being capable of producing insanely powerful characters. Using only the PHB and the ECS I have created a tenth level Shifter Barbarian/Were-touched Master with a strength and a constitution in the mid-thirties using a twenty-eight point buy. Now if this isn't a power gamers wet dream I don't know what is. Throw in two levels of fighter and follow it up with eight levels of Disciple of Dis (BoVD) and you have one mean mother. I think the argument a lot of people make against power gamers is the same type of argument Ann Rand's characters in Atlas Shrugged made against the successful capitalists. To paraphrase, you are playing two games, one of which you are better at, therefore we must denounce that game as being unworthy of praise and also state that, without evidence of your shortcomings in the other, you are a failure and should not be allowed to play. For any of you who have wasted as much time as I have reading Ann Rand, you will probably think, "WTF?" I know this is a big leap from her original message, but the argument is the same. Anyway, that is my opinion. I hope it is enlightening and enjoyable. Sincerely Boytbpc And by replying to this, I mean no ill-will towards you. Please do not take offense; I am just using your post as a reference-marker. You see here a very articulate post pertaining to power-gaming. However, there is a contradiction in it that I feel the need to point out. The author of the post bolds and makes a point to show that he wants you to imagine that you are the character. However, the only thing he describes about his character and how it was unique and special to him was the fact that he could summon a whole lotta pets, have the best items, shop at the best stores. Surprising that even with the countless of fiction books out by some of the best fiction writers...how many times does this happen to our heroes in those books?....maybe 1 item of superb quality, a few magical accessories....but the best of the best, every time? Now, I agree that each player wants the best for his character. However, how can you "be" your character when all your character wants is power and all his ambition is greed?(You can, but only so many times until even you get bored with it...and your play group will have already become bored many a session earlier) I respect the fact that you enjoy power-gaming, and I wish you well in every campaign you ever decide to play. But, I must reject the notion that power-gaming makes you feel like the character. That, is for the other end of this spectrum.
Insignia) 10-07-05, 08:34 AM	Nooo! You've managed to take FR away from me, but it ends right there... I'll not see the glory that is Eberron defiled by minmaxer filth! :P Brethren, role-players! We must rally against this threat immediately, lest it devours us all! Those of you who would rather not see the coming of the second darkness, ride with me now! CHAAAAAARGE! :hoppingma :fight!: :hoppingma ~Former CO, now a passionate actor and Eberron fan
The White Sorcerer 10-07-05, 08:49 AM	It has been said, and should be said again until people understand. Role-playing and min/maxing aren't mutually exclusive. While I like role-playing, I don't really like excessive acting at the table, and I would min/max more if I could. Yet I still like Eberron more than Forgotten Realms.
boytbpc 10-07-05, 09:20 AM	And by replying to this, I mean no ill-will towards you. Please do not take offense; I am just using your post as a reference-marker. As a note Lazarus, I take no offence to anyone who respectfully discusses an opinion, no matter how different from my own. By the way, I prefer to address each statement individually by using the "quote" tag, some people feel that this is "tearing" apart their argument and is rude, but I find it easier for others to follow the conversation without having to repeatedly scroll back through previous posts to find the reference. You see here a very articulate post pertaining to power-gaming. However, there is a contradiction in it that I feel the need to point out. The author of the post bolds and makes a point to show that he wants you to imagine that you are the character. However, the only thing he describes about his character and how it was unique and special to him was the fact that he could summon a whole lotta pets, have the best items, shop at the best stores. You assert that my attachment to the character was based only upon his ability to preform. This is simply not true. In my previous post I briefly mentioned his power, but I stated that I did not fully take advantage of the build, as this would have un-balanced the game. You also said that the only way I described the character was in relation to his powers and items, I will refer you back to my original post where I state, I wanted to play an evil man who deals with demons and devils in order to become a god... My character was real, he had a story, he had a reason and a purpose. Now, as I hadn't given you a character history or a synopsis of the campaign or the role-playing, to proclaim that I was contradictory falls under the logical fallacy argumentum ad ignorantiam . Surprising that even with the countless of fiction books out by some of the best fiction writers...how many times does this happen to our heroes in those books?....maybe 1 item of superb quality, a few magical accessories....but the best of the best, every time? This is a classic example of argumentum ad verecundiam (appeal to authority). The meduims of the fictional novel and the role-playing game are vastly different. The author of the novel chooses when the heroes are faced with insurmountable odds, when and to whom critical hits happen, and when to use deus ex machina. Most importantly though, in the novel, characters do not die by chance. To my knowledge authors do not 'play' the novel, leaving the lives of important characters hanging on a roll of the dice. However, in most role-playing games this is exactly what does happen. A character that you invest countless hours developing could be reduced to a pile of ashes or a bloody-mass by the throwing of a die. To increase the chance that this won't happen, my characters take precautions such as buying the best item they can afford and taking spells and feats that increase their chance of success. You even agree. Now, I agree that each player wants the best for his character. By making these choices, I am increasing the chance that this character will live, which provides for continuity in the campaign and also allows for me to develop the personality of the character. Which subsequently allows for better role-playing. However, how can you "be" your character when all your character wants is power and all his ambition is greed?(You can, but only so many times until even you get bored with it...and your play group will have already become bored many a session earlier) This statement falls somewhere between affirming the consequent and argumentum ad ignorantiam . I did mention that the character I last played was driven by ambition. He wanted to replace the deities that had lost interest in the lives of man. It wasn't greed or power that was driving him, but revenge. Also, I stated that if I were going into an area infested with mean, nasty, things intending to kill me I would take every precaution necessary, this isn't greed but intelligence. Making powerful characters does not make me any more capable of role-playing, but it also does not make me any less capable of role-playing. These two qualities are unrelated. To make a very humble kind person who happens to be the best at what he does is realistic, the opposite is also true. So to state that by building powerful characters I somehow deduct from my ability to role-play is absurd and based only in your preception. I would happily sit at a table with you and show you my latest creation while fully interacting in character. Now, I hope you don't mind if I skip the proof-read because I need to get busy preparing for my next game (I'm a new DM, after 15 years of playing I figured it's about time to take the reigns :cool: ). Sincerely, Boytbpc
REN 10-07-05, 10:02 AM	But what specifically do you dislike about "power gaming"? Power gaming has it's place and even though I say I'm not a power gamer, I do at times 'power game'. What I mean is i do think strategically when I equip my character. But that ends once the game starts. I may be in a situation where I need to seriously look at my character sheet to ensure survival, so at that point I guess I'm power gaming because I'm looking for the best solution to a dangerous situation. HOWEVER... when I play the game, I usually choose to be my character and think like him, not like a gamer trying to play the character. As scary as that may seem to some, it's the way I play. I kinda 'become' that character and will try to think as he would. He wouldn't in the heat of battle know every single possibility there is, so I choose not to always worry too much about it. The good thing is that the DM is usually the same way, so we have fun battles. The power gamers I've seen, will see a situation and take advantage of it even if his or her character would/could not know. EXAMPLE... My character was sneaking down hill to investigate an empty campsite. As I moved down, the party lost site of me. Then out of nowhere there were a dozen or so lizard men and some larger creature acting as a mount for their leader. They began to charge towards the party. They didn't spot me so I stayed concealed hoping to gain flanking advantage and backstab the leader. The mage in the party cast a stinking cloud and said that she was not going to cast it in a speicific area because as a player she knew I was there, even though by castig it there she would have had maximum effect. The thing is, her character would not have known that I was in the way because they had lost site of me and I had been weaving in and out of trees and shrubs. The DM said that she should fire it whereever she thinks her character would, not where she as a player would know it be best. Guess what.... she ended up firing her spell towards me and I was discovered and nearly killed. I didn't argue, and neither did she. We're not power gamers so we role played. Now... if the same thing had happened with a well known power gamer I know, he would have aruged that point and insisted that the spell effect be moved over to the next area becuase he saw my mini on the board. That's just one small example of why I prefer not to play with power gamers. Grant it... they're not all the same and not all power gamers would act the same way, but the ones I know would not be happy with that outcome. I'm guessing you guys hate the number-crunching or the endless studying of the rule books? Do you hate the endless tactical analysis and strategy discussions? I own all the EBERRON books, the core books and the MINI Handbook. I refuse to allow any other complete this or that or other such book for several reasons. It costs money and most players can't afford it. There are too many things to read and remember so you spend too much time concentrating on rules. I don't ever allow open books at the table unless I say so, when I am the DM. I have no time to sit down and study 20+ books because I enjoy many other things and have a busy schedule. I do however, enjoy flipping through the Eberron material I have and using it as reference. As for tactical analysis, I enjoy that too. Many times have passed where our party would sit there and discuss strategy for 10 minutes, but it is only 10% of the time. In another campaign I palyed in, it was more like 75% of the time. I sat there most sessions, patiently waiting for the next scene / encounter, bored out of my skull while one or two players would read their books and spend all their time trying to make one decision. Why would you want to ban that? Why would you not want to work with a team like that? How is that "not Eberron"? I ban it because it doesn't appeal to me the same way as it seems you don't like people to come in and act out their characters. There have been alot of posts since I posted last so I'm not certain who it is that mentioned 'theatre rejects' but that's just an insult. I'm not into theatre, but I do act out my charactr from time to time. No voice acting, just speaking and haggling as appose to doing some stupid 'diplomacy' check. It's more fun that way. Sometimes the things that are said lead to out right laughter that makes a game feel more memorable, than if we had simply rolled our dice and had a decision handed out to us by the DM. Now .... we still do that, just not all the time. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE! My power gamers that I know just wouldn't care for the conversation part or the role playing part. The two just don't mix. How this applies to Eberron I don't know. I think Eberron is heavy on story, but there is no reason you can't power game in it. If I tell you about some of my 'anti power gamer' techniques, perhaps you would understand why they don't mix. - I ask for 10 to 20 or more pre-rolled numbers ahead of time. This way I make secret DC checks without revealing to the gamers that there is a potential threat. Every time I ask for a roll, they are all of a sudden on high alert and begin to MIN/MAX there potentials. This way it's all about surprise and athmosphere. I use it to do Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, etc.... just about anything. - I don't tell them how many hitpoints they received in damage. This is an old trick carried on from Ravenloft 2nd edition, and something a friend of mine uses. It's also mentioned in the Ravneloft 3.5 books. It's a way to make you think twice before you walk into a mysterious room. I do tell them how they are feeling by describing their general condition and wounds. If I say you are bleeding on your lip or have a scratch or slight cut on your arm, then you know you aren't too beat up. If however I say you are gasping for air and blood is pouring from your wound to the leg, you are more seriuously injured... perhaps about 1/2 HP gone. Now, if I say something like 'You are seriously injured and need attention', then that's your que to get out and drink a healig potion or something. This takes away the mechanic and makes the game feel more like a role playing game and less like a numbers game. - If someone insists on rolling every 3 minutes for a dimplomacy check or a sense motive check, eventually I let them roll and ignore it. They usually 'get it'. If someone however, wants to do a listen check at a specific time, or whatever, and they don't tend to over do it, then I obviously follow through. - I pass around lots of notes so that players don't know what has effected the others and I leave it up to them to descibe what happens or not. To me, D&D is all about the memorable moments that happen at the table so I focus 90% of my energies on athmospehere and not rules... To give my sessions 'spice', I add music and sound effects, and even may pre-record voices instead of reading it to the players. I've used candle light in the past and other non 'mechanic' ways to resolve situations - ex, to decide who would fall victim to a sleep-like spell, I taped an enveope to the bottom of a random chair, and when it was time I asked the players to look. The player with the envelope read the note, and left the room quietly. That left everyone left in the room wondering what happened. I didn't even bother to roll a dice for it. A power gamer would have argued that he had resistance or something. It was my game, and I ran it my way! It made it so much fun and put everyone on edge so much, that we needed to take a break. Anyhow, I've said WAY to much. I just think that power gamers are OK, and so are non power gamers. I just hope you understand why it wouldn't appeal to me or why you wouldn't have as much fun in my type of game. Different strokes, different folks! :)
boytbpc 10-07-05, 10:11 AM	My character was sneaking down hill to investigate an empty campsite. As I moved down, the party lost site of me. Then out of nowhere there were a dozen or so lizard men and some larger creature acting as a mount for their leader. They began to charge towards the party. They didn't spot me so I stayed concealed hoping to gain flanking advantage and backstab the leader. The mage in the party cast a stinking cloud and said that she was not going to cast it in a speicific area because as a player she knew I was there, even though by castig it there she would have had maximum effect. The thing is, her character would not have known that I was in the way because they had lost site of me and I had been weaving in and out of trees and shrubs. The DM said that she should fire it whereever she thinks her character would, not where she as a player would know it be best. Guess what.... she ended up firing her spell towards me and I was discovered and nearly killed. I didn't argue, and neither did she. We're not power gamers so we role played. Now... if the same thing had happened with a well known power gamer I know, he would have aruged that point and insisted that the spell effect be moved over to the next area becuase he saw my mini on the board. This isn't powergaming, its metagaming. There is a huge difference. Boytbpc
REN 10-07-05, 10:30 AM	This isn't powergaming, its metagaming. There is a huge difference. Boytbpc TRUE! I got a little 'off track' with my post. I was simply trying to show how a true 'role player' (people in my group) would play versus a non true role player. Perhaps we have 3 types now. Role Player, Meta Gamer, and powert gamer! OH BOY!!! Here we go......
DarkWarriorKarg 10-07-05, 12:24 PM	My power gamers that I know just wouldn't care for the conversation part or the role playing part. The two just don't mix. What you have is either munchkins or immature players. The easy way to detect a munchkin is to see if they cheat. Power gaming does not mean you can't role-play. Power gaming to the extreme is as bad a theatre-reject extreme roleplayers. Find a balance, move on, get on with your life.
Orion Polaris 10-07-05, 12:55 PM	Apples and Oranges. People like both types of play, and both types of play fit into Eberron. Get used to it, as Eberron gets more and more popular, more and more different types of playstyles will be added to the community.
Insignia) 10-07-05, 01:07 PM	Get used to it, as Eberron gets more and more popular, more and more different types of playstyles will be added to the community. Not if we kill them first. Not if we kill them all. :evillaugh (hehe, such a Kev statement :P)
REN 10-07-05, 01:09 PM	What you have is either munchkins or immature players. The easy way to detect a munchkin is to see if they cheat. Power gaming does not mean you can't role-play. Power gaming to the extreme is as bad a theatre-reject extreme roleplayers. Find a balance, move on, get on with your life. I never said you can't role play if you are a power gamer. Read my posts and you will see that I've said since the start that you can be one or the other or both. I prefer to lean away form power gaming. For you to say that one is as bad as the other is OK for you, but don't go and tell others to 'find a balance' and move on. Perhaps I'm perfectly comfortable with my 'balance'. The original intent of this thread, I think, was for power gamers to show themselves, and prove that Eberron isn't just for non power gamers. If you prefer one style over the next, then that's your preference and it is neither right or wrong. And I'm getting on with my life quite well - thank you! :rolleyes: Anyhow, this is all just getting a little silly.
Serpentine 10-07-05, 01:26 PM	According to WotC market research, there are two different ways of approaching a roleplaying game— strategic focus vs. tactical focus and combat focus vs. story focus. http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/BreakdownOfRPGPlayers.html This two-axis model produces four types of gamer: Thinker, Powergamer, Storyteller and Character Actor. These four types are roughly EQUALLY REPRESENTED, about 22% each, no matter what setting or rp game world. There are also gamers who do not favor any extreme and land square in the middle, enjoying all of it. About 12% of the survey respondents were in this group. Thinkers and powergamers like to min-max characters to get as much efficiency out of the rules; storytellers and character actors choose flavor and consistency over efficiency. Thinkers and storytellers enjoy puzzles and plot developments, being concerned with the overall movement of the story; powergamers and character actors are concerned with their own characters as individuals. They are both optimizing — one is optimizing for effectiveness according to the rules, and the other is optimizing for an accurate representation of a person. However, an adventure that only focuses on one segment will not succeed; powergamers don't just want to kill things if there's no coherent story, character development or intellectual challenge, and similarly, character actors don't want to sit in a room roleplaying having tea for six sessions. OK — back to Eberron: Eberron probably has the same gamer distribution as standard D&D — and as we all well know, if it can be found in core D&D it has a place in Eberron. A few weeks ago there was a really excellent post on optimizing Dragonmarks. My guess (and this is purely my opinion) is that many of the more vocal people on this board fall into the Thinker or Storyteller group, which are rarely stereotypes people bring up when talking about gamers — but which usually make good DMs and game designers. The best and most elaborate threads on the Eberron boards have been discussions about histories and cultures from a larger perspective; extrapolations and developments of houses, religions, and nations from mere seeds of existing data; various ideas of how to present power groups and individuals; and descriptive adventure seeds.
LazarusX 10-07-05, 02:27 PM	alot of true things said, but for sake of space; condensing to this little tidbit I must say that I was misleading in how I explained myself. I'll try and do better this time, realizing that posting at 5am in the morning is sometimes not the best time to be critical or logical. My point(referring to reference marker) is the fact that you, Boytbpc, are actually a diamond in the rough. I would think possibly even you realize this. Most power-gamers/munchkins/heavy RP'ers are a one-trick pony...as in, they only know one way to play and just keep bashing their perverbial heads against the wall time after time. You however, seem to have the ability and capacity to do all 3 equally well. I concede the fact that my points directly against you were wrong. However, if you take the things I said and turn them instead of against you directly, to then target power-gamers in general; I believe my points are spot-on. So, whilst you have proven that through the years, you have learned to balance all the aspects of a good D&D character(as to which I would take a gander to guess that you have a pretty solid grasp on real-life situations and the ability to handle anything that comes your way), I still must assert that most power-gamers happen to come up a bit shy in the other areas of the finer points of roleplaying in any campaign. And in the end...run-on sentences are fun ;)
Thievingrouge 10-07-05, 02:51 PM	But he is not a power gamer. A true power gamer would never create a gunslinger with such high charisma and intelligence, to not mention all the ranks in bluff and possibly diplomacy he had. Intellegence is an important ability.How else do you get all of the necessary skill ranks? Bluff and Charisma both have great combat an out-of-combat uses. Nooo! You've managed to take FR away from me, but it ends right there... I'll not see the glory that is Eberron defiled by minmaxer filth! Brethren, role-players! We must rally against this threat immediately, lest it devours us all! Those of you who would rather not see the coming of the second darkness, ride with me now! CHAAAAAARGE! ~Former CO, now a passionate actor and Eberron fan Should I go"lol" or "J00 are teh suk"? :)
Inkling 10-07-05, 03:45 PM	However, an adventure that only focuses on one segment will not succeed; powergamers don't just want to kill things if there's no coherent story, character development or intellectual challenge, and similarly, character actors don't want to sit in a room roleplaying having tea for six sessions.Absolutely! As a self-proclaimed power gamer, I completely hate hack-and-slash gaming...and as a Thinker, I have no desire to play a character that so vastly outclasses anything else in the game that there's no reason to think anymore. I do enjoy the role-playing aspects of the game...after all, if I didn't I'd be playing Unreal Tournament right now. And as a role-player, I don't like coddling DMs that always let you live no matter what you do...I feel like "why even try to think? I know nothing I do will get me killed"...to me that seriously detracts from the suspension of disbelief the game requires, it's just too "unrealistic". Storyline is critical to get engaged in the plot and goals of the adventure. But if I just wanted to listen to someone tell me their story, I'd go rent a movie. I think balance is the key to everything and to completely ban power gaming is just short sighted, narrow minded, and, in reality, hypocritical.
LuciferNietzsche 10-08-05, 05:16 AM	I think the large extent of munchkinism or excessive power-gaming is due to DM irresponsibility. Just because you always want the best thing you can afford doesn't mean you can have it. DMs with power-gamers should make them actually go to the trouble of learning new things, learning feats, etc...that should keep them from unreasonably power-gaming, without preventing them from even minimal efficiency. It's true that everyone wants the best for their character, but you can't have it, deal with it. If you were your character, you won't find the best guy to train you all the time. You won't be able to learn the best technique for something everytime. When you want a +3 keen scimitar of speed, there might just not be one available, and maybe not even a wizard or artificer willing to or capable of making it for you. DMs really shouldn't have to do this, I'll admit, but some power-gamers, munchkiners, whatever, force the requirement. Like I said before, power-gaming is usually really just a symptom of meta-gaming. The number is representative in role-playing, and mechanical with the die roll. You make the choice based on the representation, not the mechanic. If you're choosing it because of the mechanic, you're meta-gaming, pure and simple. You're making a decision based on something you as a player know, not what your character knows. Whether your character would want the best is irrelevant. Maybe (and I know this isn't necessarily true) you know that going the two-handed weapon route with a fighter is best, but if you make your character, what if they espouse the virtues of fighting dextrously with two-weapons? Your character doesn't do what's best, your character does what he THINKS is best. Maybe that coincides with what's mechanically best to an extent. But that won't happen all the time. Making it perfect is not realistic at all. Saying you're doing it for realism is an excuse, not a defense. Oh, and I was one of the ones who mentioned theatre rejects...because I don't like people who do stupid voices badly, make faces, and gesture wildly because it's what their character would do. It's a waste because I already see their character in my own mind, doing exactly that, and to see them doing it also just makes me want to jump over the table and throttle them til they look like a smurf. That's my opinion anyway.
boytbpc 10-08-05, 05:49 AM	DMs really shouldn't have to do this, I'll admit, but some power-gamers, munchkiners, whatever, force the requirement. Like I said before, power-gaming is usually really just a symptom of meta-gaming. The number is representative in role-playing, and mechanical with the die roll. You make the choice based on the representation, not the mechanic. If you're choosing it because of the mechanic, you're meta-gaming, pure and simple. You're making a decision based on something you as a player know, not what your character knows. Whether your character would want the best is irrelevant. Maybe (and I know this isn't necessarily true) you know that going the two-handed weapon route with a fighter is best, but if you make your character, what if they espouse the virtues of fighting dextrously with two-weapons? Your character doesn't do what's best, your character does what he THINKS is best. Maybe that coincides with what's mechanically best to an extent. But that won't happen all the time. Making it perfect is not realistic at all. Saying you're doing it for realism is an excuse, not a defense. My character knows a great axe does more damage than a dagger, therefore making it a superior weapon in his hands. I know this to be true as a player because the table in the phb tells me so. My character knows that if he learns how to follow through on a hit that drops someone he might be able to drop someone else, therefore making learning how to cleave a good choice. I know this to be true because the PHB tells me so. My character also knows that by cleaving enough people, one day he'll be able to cleave multiple people when given the chance, making him even more powerful. I know this to be true because the PHB tells me so. Now you state that the 'number' represents something in the game world. You are absolutely correct. Every feat, skill, weapon, and spell represents something in the game world. They represent things that your character can see, smell, touch, learn, etc. Therefore, an observant adventurer will see others casting spells that he wants, he'll notice enemies using new techniques that interest him, he'll see the new model of lighter armor in the store and he'll realize that if he has that suit of armor he is less likely to drown next time he falls into the river. Now, if my character has an intelligence or a wisdom of around ten, he'll notice these things and he'll want them because his life is precious to him, and these things may one day save it. You mention that some things your character does is what he thinks to be best, not what you know to be the best. This is good role-playing. My question is, how do you know what your character know? Should a wizard know of all the spells in the PHB, how about a cleric? If your a fighter, wouldn't you know about all of the different types of armor and weapons. You had probably seen many different fighting styles while training with others. Just as I'm able to sit back and extoll the virtues of chain-tripping, my fighter should be able to do the same (he does have an intelligence of 13 mind you, and he is more knowledgeable than I in fighting techniques). I think your argument that making wise choices is meta-gaming is without merit. Most creatures make choices based upon what they think is best. Our characters are probably better educated in the art of war and survival than we, thereby if given independent sentience would probably make better choices than we. Boytbpc
Just another user 10-08-05, 07:35 AM	Apaprently you think powergaming means making a character that can only do thousands of damage in a round. And that, sir, is completely absurd. There's powergame builds that maximize Diplomacy into the hundreds, and have charisma as their highest stat. And its friggin easy to make up a good powergame build with a backstory to boot. I think a lot of you are confusing powergamers with munchkins. a power gamer is oine that build the most efficient character if he build a gunslinger he will be the best gunslinger,maximize diplomacy or charisma is not part of the concept of best gunslinger, it is poart of the concept of a normal, well rounded gunslinger. Else you should explain to me how a power gamer differ from any other gamer of normal intelligence. And like I said the main character of "for a fistful of dollars" was not a power character, was simply an high level character against a lot of mook and some other high level NPCs. He didn't win because he had the best stats, he win because he was played in a smart way.
Inkling 10-08-05, 07:52 AM	It's true that everyone wants the best for their character, but you can't have it, deal with it. If you were your character, you won't find the best guy to train you all the time. You won't be able to learn the best technique for something everytime. When you want a +3 keen scimitar of speed, there might just not be one available, and maybe not even a wizard or artificer willing to or capable of making it for you.I totally agree, I don't think that most feats or gear should be able to be taken so easily "a la carte". I actually liked games MORE when the DM said "if you want to take the Exotic Feat of Doom or the Coolest Prestige Class Ever, then you have to go to a remote monastery in Tibet or whatever to find someone who can (and will) teach it to you. And if you want the coolest gear imaginable then you have to make it yourself or find some half-crazed artificer who lives out in the middle of nowhere to build it for you. You can't just walk into the nearest shop and put in an order for one. The whole Batman Begins thing. Part of being a power gamer is feeling, well, powerful... and the more exclusive a feat or item feels, the cooler it is when your character gets it. I also noticed that it has the side effect of cutting down on "character swapping", it makes you feel more attached to the character and you don't want to dump him so easily for the next big idea you have for a character concept. EDIT: I think this is even more important to do in Eberron than Forgotten Realms because of Eberron's lack of super heros you can learn from or infinite populated planes you can explore. It just makes sense that your characters will have to dig a little deeper to get the stuff they want.
Majorafire77 10-08-05, 10:24 AM	First of all, most of the power-gaming involving FR races, classes, and PrCs goes on in the CO board anyway, so I don't see why that should be any different for Eberron, especially because FR is better for CO than Eberron is (simply because there are more options for the power-gamers to use). In addition, a lot of the Eberron crunch is considered "core" anyway. Secondly, why would you ever want to restrict what feats, PrCs, and other stuff you could get by moving your CO operations over to the Eberron boards? I've seen nothing to prove that CO isn't about options. The more options that the CO people get, the more powerful their characters become (in general). By moving here you are screwing yourself out of all of the crunch that FR has to offer. Wouldn't your druid be that much better if he got access to the Eberron druid feats and the stuff such as Rashemi Elemental Summoning? I see no reason why you'd ever want to move here. Finally, Eberron gets bashed for being too much like a video game and stuff like that already. Having an influx of munchkins would just prove that idea correct, which nobody (except maybe you guys) would want. As for CO in general, I'd be fine with it if the people who participated in it were more focused on actually picking feats and classes to fit a character's background as opposed to picking feats and classes that will help the character best do more damage in combat (optimizing according to the character's background). I'd have no problem with that on the Eberron boards. However, the majority of the CO people don't care about roleplaying a character at all, which is kind of what D&D is all about. Honestly, there are so many other games besides D&D where people will be impressed with how broken your character is as opposed to being disgusted with it, why not play those games? The only thing relating to CO that I'd tolerate is the artificer thread that's been around here forever, but even that doesn't belong on the Eberron boards. My character knows a great axe does more damage than a dagger, therefore making it a superior weapon in his hands. I know this to be true as a player because the table in the phb tells me so. My character knows that if he learns how to follow through on a hit that drops someone he might be able to drop someone else, therefore making learning how to cleave a good choice. I know this to be true because the PHB tells me so. My character also knows that by cleaving enough people, one day he'll be able to cleave multiple people when given the chance, making him even more powerful. I know this to be true because the PHB tells me so. So tell me, how does X-Codes' Cobra Strike Monk 16/Shou Disciple 4 know that he'll get "attacks at +18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 with dual scimitars, or +19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+19/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+9/+9/+9/+4/+4/+4/+4 with haste and 1k cuts"? What about the Cleric 5/ Dweomerkeeper 5/ Contemplative 1/ Exemplar 9 nanobot? How does he know that he'll be getting a +5,742 bonus to any skill he wants or a +4,593 bonus to AC or attack? What's the roleplaying explanation for both? Why did they pick those classes? I don't think that the extreme CO presented by many of the people on that board can really be merged well with roleplaying, so don't try it.
LuciferNietzsche 10-08-05, 11:07 PM	A dagger as a weapon is inferior in some ways to a great axe. But in the hands of the right individual, a dagger is a far deadlier and more reliable than a great axe. It just depends on which way you go. The point is that no one thing in D&D should ever be superior to another. That doesn't always work out that way, but as players and DMs, we're supposed to find ways to fill in those gaps, not exploit them to the point of game-breaking. It's difficult to know every single aspect of how one thing in the game will relate to everything else in every way. One can't expect the designers and developers to catch every single little thing. Power-gamers don't catch these little loopholes because they're smart, though most are...it's just statistically required that someone figure it out eventually. I heard of one build involving using an oversized chain lash or something...on a character that could enlarge itself, with a few complimentary feats and such... I didn't bother to look it over, because I'd rather come up with my own ideas, not rip one off a CO board. Arguably it was probably an incredibly effective concept, but why bother at all to play such a character? It was a total battlefield controller, but there's no legitimate reason to play such a character, none. Nor should everyone be expected to play such a character, it's boring and linear.
Sir Elton 10-09-05, 11:58 AM	One of the best things to do with roleplaying is to have fun doing it and to make sure it was a memorable experience. Having a game focused on the numbers rather than the roleplaying makes for one of those regular basketball games. you play, have fun, don't remember most anything about it afterwards. Focusing on the roleplaying, and using combat rarely, would make a CO character interesting. I think it's okay to "power game," if I were running a power game; though; I'd focus on the roleplaying and use combat situations rarely.
Thievingrouge 10-09-05, 02:29 PM	It's true that everyone wants the best for their character, but you can't have it, deal with it. If you were your character, you won't find the best guy to train you all the time. You won't be able to learn the best technique for something everytime. When you want a +3 keen scimitar of speed, there might just not be one available, and maybe not even a wizard or artificer willing to or capable of making it for you. Then you are stuck with DM cheese. If the item is in the GP range of the town, I can get it. Read the DMG. Secondly, why would you ever want to restrict what feats, PrCs, and other stuff you could get by moving your CO operations over to the Eberron boards? I've seen nothing to prove that CO isn't about options. The more options that the CO people get, the more powerful their characters become (in general). By moving here you are screwing yourself out of all of the crunch that FR has to offer. Wouldn't your druid be that much better if he got access to the Eberron druid feats and the stuff such as Rashemi Elemental Summoning? I see no reason why you'd ever want to move here. I don't want to move anything. I want to know why there is such a lack luster showing of powergamers. The guys who buy the most books. thus increasing sales, thus helping the setting stay afloat. I totally agree, I don't think that most feats or gear should be able to be taken so easily "a la carte". I actually liked games MORE when the DM said "if you want to take the Exotic Feat of Doom or the Coolest Prestige Class Ever, then you have to go to a remote monastery in Tibet or whatever to find someone who can (and will) teach it to you. And if you want the coolest gear imaginable then you have to make it yourself or find some half-crazed artificer who lives out in the middle of nowhere to build it for you. You can't just walk into the nearest shop and put in an order for one. The whole Batman Begins thing. Sure the first one works. If it is a prereq. for the PrC. But the other examples you have are house rules.
Majorafire77 10-09-05, 08:07 PM	Then you are stuck with DM cheese. If the item is in the GP range of the town, I can get it. Read the DMG. So you're saying that any fighter in Sharn should be able to get Mechanus Gear if he had enough cash? :rolleyes: I don't want to move anything. I want to know why there is such a lack luster showing of powergamers. The guys who buy the most books. thus increasing sales, thus helping the setting stay afloat. ...The guys who don't care about roleplaying. The guys who constantly look for ways to make the game more fun for them at the expense at everyone else at the table. The guys who complain because their DM won't let them get an item that both of them know will let the character destroy every enemy to come in the first round with no saving throw. The guys who bring every single book they own to the session just so they can obliterate the enemy. The guys who nobody likes other than people just like them. The guys who come in here and act like they're what's keeping D&D alive. :chicken: :censored:
boytbpc 10-09-05, 11:26 PM	...The guys who don't care about roleplaying. The guys who constantly look for ways to make the game more fun for them at the expense at everyone else at the table. The guys who complain because their DM won't let them get an item that both of them know will let the character destroy every enemy to come in the first round with no saving throw. The guys who bring every single book they own to the session just so they can obliterate the enemy. The guys who nobody likes other than people just like them. The guys who come in here and act like they're what's keeping D&D alive. :chicken: :censored: It appears that you have repressed agression Major. Maybe it would be therapeutic for you to go talk to someone :) , or if you disagree maybe it would just be better for you to word your posts in a less agressive manner, so as not to be viewed as someone who is trying to bait people. That of course is just my opinion, and I may be wrong. Sincerely Boytbpc
Thievingrouge 10-10-05, 07:11 PM	So you're saying that any fighter in Sharn should be able to get Mechanus Gear if he had enough cash? Yes (If I recall the only wards that can sell it are in the upper districts). Of course the name is probably different, and the fighter is being dumb. ...The guys who don't care about roleplaying. The guys who constantly look for ways to make the game more fun for them at the expense at everyone else at the table. The guys who complain because their DM won't let them get an item that both of them know will let the character destroy every enemy to come in the first round with no saving throw. The guys who bring every single book they own to the session just so they can obliterate the enemy. The guys who nobody likes other than people just like them. The guys who come in here and act like they're what's keeping D&D alive. Yes.partially (Ecxept making others miserable). I don't know where the item exists, but if it is affordable, yes.Heck yeah! yep. and yep again. Of course thats just me and my "Elitest complex," not others unless they wish to speak it. Yes I do believe powergamers are a boon to the hobby- roleplayers will skip over books, due to fluff issues. I buy every book when the funds are available, due to the new options. It appears that you have repressed agression Major. Maybe it would be therapeutic for you to go talk to someone , or if you disagree maybe it would just be better for you to word your posts in a less agressive manner, so as not to be viewed as someone who is trying to bait people. That of course is just my opinion, and I may be wrong. No, he's completley fine. It is his view, I didn't find it aggressive.
Inkling 10-10-05, 08:48 PM	It appears that you have repressed agression Major. Maybe it would be therapeutic for you to go talk to someone :) , or if you disagree maybe it would just be better for you to word your posts in a less agressive manner, so as not to be viewed as someone who is trying to bait people. That of course is just my opinion, and I may be wrong. Sincerely BoytbpcEverybody say it: "Jer-ry! Jer-ry! Jer-ry!"
Thievingrouge 10-10-05, 09:04 PM	Everybody say it: "Jer-ry! Jer-ry! Jer-ry!" It is his opinion, and I do not necessarily disagree. Don't flame, it proves the other sides points.
boytbpc 10-10-05, 11:12 PM	Sorry if I appeared to be the aggressive one. Thought I was doing a public service, but I guess not. By the way, try not to throw fuel on a fire Inkling. Boytbpc
Inkling 10-10-05, 11:58 PM	Who's flaming?!? I was just making a joke. My point was that you guys really need to lighten up...you really do. And here's my final thought: It's just a game kids, once you start throwing insults back and forth late into the night, it becomes clear to everyone listening that you really need to by an Xbox. Good night and take care of each other.
Calibim 10-11-05, 05:34 PM	Who's flaming?!? I was just making a joke. My point was that you guys really need to lighten up...you really do. And here's my final thought: It's just a game kids, once you start throwing insults back and forth late into the night, it becomes clear to everyone listening that you really need to by an Xbox. Good night and take care of each other. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Ok ...whew...man that was good I needed that. Alright the original questions was “Where are the Eberron Power Gamers?” so please allow me to give my humble answer(s). · They exist but they are not as extreme as you would see in other setting. · The CURRENT majority fan base lean more toward the “role-player” side than the Power Gamer side. (notice the capitalization and or lack there of, like “truth” with a small ‘t’….sorry got all existential there for a moment) · Most of that majority fan base has had many a game ruined by Power Gamers. (And before you start, it happens! Maybe I’m not talking about YOUR games but yeah trust me it happens alot) · Because of ruined games the “role-players” have been giving a pretty hostile greeting to any Power Gamer that rears his/her head on the Eberron boards hence the reason there are not as many Power Gamers that wish to be vocal about it. So that’s about the gist of it. If you wanna Power Game in your own game then fine, by all means knock yourself out. There are plenty of baddies out there that can give you a challenge. But the CURRENT majority Eberron fan base (at least the most vocal ones represented here on the Boards) looks more towards Character Development than Character Optimization. And while the Power Gamers buy all the Splat books that Wizards of the Coast makes, you will notice that the majority of material that has come out for Eberron has been more fluff based than crunch based. Magic of Eberron is the first step to changing that trend. We will see what happens when that comes out.
Chiyo 10-12-05, 03:29 PM	Hello, fellows! I wanted to see if I could find out if there is such a thing as a powergaming Eberron fans, such as myself. I don't want any problems, but I seem to notice alot of hate in Eberron circles for fans like myself. Thank you. There has been some threads about CO of certain class/race combos here. Not all have turned - much like this thread - into a them vs us, minmaxers vs roleplayers argument. But back to the original question, I think it's due to the design of the base world. Look at the top PCs (say leaders of dragonhouses). Those guys are nowhere near lvl 20. Compare it to FR where many of the notable PCs are way into epic levels. There is notable bias towards low levels in the campaign sourcebook that sets the flavor for the world of Eberron. Of course, players and DMs can take it or leave it but the emphasis is maybe not as much on higher levels than on low to mid level game. Look at the reputation scales in Eberron. At lvl 5-7, the PCs are already famous and icons people have heard of. Level 5 in FR, chances are you like the sergeant in the local town militia. Only your relatives have heard of your exploits. I think from that setup, Eberron attracted more roleplayers than powergamers. As far as the pulp/fluff factor, reading the campaign sourcebook, it's pretty obvious as well. A lot of emphasis seems to be spent on the stroy-telling aspect of the game rather than just stats, classes, races and feats. I think that aspect also appeals more to roleplayers than powergamers so as a result audience here lean more towards those. And since audience here is maybe more composed of roleplayers, they tend to value that type of gaming more and look down on what other players prefer. It's kinda natural really. And it's self-reinforcing mechanism as well in a way. The more emphasis the boards have on roleplaying and flavor/fluff, the more it attracts roleplayers which in turn will add to the trend. But deep down, I think it's the way the campaign setting was initially designed and released that set things on this trend of more roleplaying emphasis. If some company designed a roleplaying game around interior design challenges, gardening issues, trouble of family upbringing and the like (sorry for stereotyping on women alledged favorite topics), it'd be likely to attract a larger woman gamer populations on boards dedicated to such a game. Much like the Sims computer game does compared to say some other fantasy PvP games.
aelryinth 10-12-05, 05:07 PM	Agreed. There is more roleplay and flavor associated with Eberron. In Forgotten Realms, you stumble over level 4 average folks every other step...every city has an archmage...the important ones have a dozen...Epic level heroes stroll around...you fall and skin your knee on magic items in the middle of an abandoned wood...etc etc. Greyhawk has a more medievel feel. FR is just begging for power gaming, simply due to the prescence of everyone having levels and all that magic out there. But Eberron, there ain't no high level heroes coming to save the day, no friendly archmages, no friendly clerics, the mercantilism aspect of the settings is reduced, and the average commoner is actually a commoner. NPCs have NPC levels, not PC levels. The prevelance of magic items is due to NPC's and the Dragonmarks, not the overwhelming numbers of divine and arcane casters of power. The level of competition isn't there, and so the NEED to make a power-gamer isn't there. You can actually make a subpar character and not be that underpowered, because you don't have to worry about being rousted out of bed by the Twinkied Thayan Red Wizard/Archmage with his DC30 Spells and the like...and there aren't an unlimited amount of them to throw at you, either. So, yes, you can powergame...but there's no real REASON to, and that's how the setting was designed...wide magic, not intense magic. ==Aelryinth
LuciferNietzsche 10-12-05, 10:45 PM	Ya know what. Whether you can buy an item really has nothing to do with the gp limit for the town. If your DM says it's an inappropriate item to find in that town, you can't have it, even if you've got the cash for it. If you're a DM more than a player, feel free to quote rules out of the DMG. If you're a player more than a DM though, the rules of the DMG are off limits. The DMG has power only in the hands of the DM. Rules lawyer players don't get to call the DM out on something in the DMG. Out of all the other books, sure, but never the DMG. I'm a nice guy when it comes to being a DM...until I get a player who doesn't deserve mercy or kindness. And it happens. I agree, Eberron's priority on lower levels removes any real reason for power-gaming. I think there's more to Eberron's low levels than just fluff though. I think it's because few groups now really play long enough to get anywhere near epic or even high levels. So they made a game that's more fun at lower levels than higher ones. I don't like playing with power-gamers or role-players. They both aggrevate me and bore me to tears. I don't like players who focus on nothing but story, especially when the story they focus on is only their character's. And I especially don't like those who exclusively dungeon-crawl for no good reason. If all we're gonna do is wander underground killing random monsters for random treasure for no reason other than because we can, forget it, I'll just stay home and play final fantasy by myself. I want to go on a quest. Maybe it'll start out small, just being a good samaritan, or maybe it'll be the treasure-seeking dungeon-crawl, but it turns into something more important...save a village...save a nation...save the world...I dunno. Maybe flip it around to an evil point of view and do the opposite. Either way though, I don't play with uber-power-gamers or uber-role-players. They aren't worth my time.
deusxmachina 10-13-05, 12:56 AM	The level of competition isn't there, and so the NEED to make a power-gamer isn't there. You can actually make a subpar character and not be that underpowered, because you don't have to worry about being rousted out of bed by the Twinkied Thayan Red Wizard/Archmage with his DC30 Spells and the like...and there aren't an unlimited amount of them to throw at you, either. Maybe the authors for Mark of Heroes amp it up a bit compared to other Eberron stuff, but when you're fighting 3+ Medusas at level four, you've got to have a bit of powergaming in you if you don't want to die a quick death. So far in MoH, most fights have been pretty tough, and this (mostly) isn't an inexperienced group. Heck, the other week we had enough of a problem just trying to get the gnome wizard up onto a moving train without him dying or getting left behind. Should have put some powergaming thought into train-boarding.
boytbpc 10-13-05, 02:06 AM	It just dawned on me what may be the problem! How old are you? How old are your players? What is the average level of education completed? Would you classify the people who have a problem with power gaming as someone who is using D&D to escape the reality of their already dreary existence, or as someone who uses it spice up their life and help them depart from their existential thinking and develop more metaphysical pathways? If you were playing a fun co-ed street hockey (basketball, etc) game would these guys check the girls, because, "hey, its not a foul!" or do they realize that the purpose of the game is fun for all? I am an adult, I have completed university, and so have my players. Everyone realizes that the purpose is fun for all, not simply for one person to 'win'. Let me know what you think. Boytbpc
The White Sorcerer 10-13-05, 04:13 AM	Everyone realizes that the purpose is fun for all, not simply for one person to 'win'. Are you saying that power gamers don't realize this?
LuciferNietzsche 10-13-05, 04:43 AM	Our group is in our late 20's to late 30's, and we're all quite well-educated regardless of completion. We don't play to get away from a dreary life, we play to have fun. Well...all but one of us anyway. That said, I still don't like those who lean too far into power-gaming or role-playing. Call me a balance-junkie. I'm not going to comment on metaphysics and its relative, theology, because it would only start a war. And I haven't finished building my nuke yet.
Chiyo 10-13-05, 04:33 PM	Are you saying that power gamers don't realize this? <casts resist elements (fire) upon self> I'd probably say that most don't (and get flamed for having an opinion) based on the concept of powergaming/munchkinism which is to optimize performance of a character at all costs. And based on the (thankfully) few examples of such players I've seen. For the record, I don't make this statement based on high vs low level campaigns powergaming or not either. High level game - something not very emphasized by the setup of the Eberron campaign world - can be all about roleplay and have people with non-optimized characters. In the same fashion, you can have low level characters who are optimized in unrealistic ways for specific performance. But if the CO boards are any indication, look at many of the threads there. Especially optimized builds. Many are created in vacuum just to see how much damage that lvl 20 would dish out or how insanely high they could get a specific skill, stat or whatnot. Not picking any thread in particular but where else can you see threads about "I need a character build for going thru the entire monster manual solo." Those builds are not to actually take on an adventure. More like an exercise in style on how to use 1000s of available options best to produce a desired performance on a character. And it doesn't matter if you need to pick a class or race from a different setting, prestige classes from 10 different books and 5 settings. As long as the goal of reaching optimized performance is accomplished. I really don't know what some of those builds have in common with regular D&D to be honest when a character becomes only an assembly of optimized stats that you don't even play. I'm not saying the players making up those builds are not having fun doing so but that's not a gaming group dynamic (at least none of the groups I've seen/been part of). In that CO context, where is the emphasis on "everyone" having a good time at the gaming table? Is the emphasis on individual performance in a group situation not leading to competition between players and/or possibly in a DM vs players situation? Unless there is no overlap in functions and abilities, yes it will. Then why emphasize outperforming other players? Wouldn't that emphasis on inter-player competition for performance - say damage dealing - mean that someone's gonna "win" and someone else would therefore "lose"? I think a lot of times the extreme powergamers tend to want to beat the system, out-perform the other players to set themselves apart above them for gratification. I don't think that behavior leads very often to healthy gaming group dynamics but maybe that's only the groups/players I've encountered. As player or DM, I don't have a problem with character optimization when it's still integrated to the campaign world, justifiable and done in a realistic and believable fashion. I require my PCs to have (even brief) backstories to justify their motivations and actions and I try to touch on those throughout the campaign. My goal being to let players have a character development/personal growth rather than just bumps in levels, skills and stats.
Inkling 10-13-05, 06:34 PM	It just dawned on me what may be the problem! How old are you? How old are your players? What is the average level of education completed?I think boytbpc hit the nail on the head with a flaming warhammer. I think a lot of the problems with "power gamers" described in this thread are actually caused by immature (and possibly sociopathic) hack-and-slashers. There's a difference between power gamers and hack-and-slashers. Power gamers wanna be the best gun in the west and hack-and-slashers wanna be bazooka joe and nuke everyone with their new build. Power gaming is more about "hot rod-ing" your character and squeezing every last bit of horsepower you can out of a build. Power gaming isn't about showing up your friends...sure there's some rivalry there, but high fives still go around the table when someone else comes up with a sweet build. Teams of specialists function the best, so if you've got a super-sniper, a super-tank, a super-spellcaster, etc, you've got a great team and no one steps on each other's territory (triggering non-useful competitiveness). I've certainly seen "teams" that think the best way to be on top is to knock everyone else to the bottom and who get all sullen when someone else comes up with an idea that's better than theirs, but I don't see that very often (not since elementary school anyways). Maybe banning power gamers isn't the answer...just ban the psycho hack-n-slashers. EDIT: Better yet, just give them the cheat codes to Unreal Tournament and let them take out their aggression somewhere else.
deusxmachina 10-13-05, 06:45 PM	But if the CO boards are any indication, look at many of the threads there. Especially optimized builds. Many are created in vacuum just to see how much damage that lvl 20 would dish out or how insanely high they could get a specific skill, stat or whatnot. Not picking any thread in particular but where else can you see threads about "I need a character build for going thru the entire monster manual solo." Those builds are not to actually take on an adventure. More like an exercise in style on how to use 1000s of available options best to produce a desired performance on a character. And it doesn't matter if you need to pick a class or race from a different setting, prestige classes from 10 different books and 5 settings. As long as the goal of reaching optimized performance is accomplished. I really don't know what some of those builds have in common with regular D&D to be honest when a character becomes only an assembly of optimized stats that you don't even play. I'm not saying the players making up those builds are not having fun doing so but that's not a gaming group dynamic (at least none of the groups I've seen/been part of). In that CO context, where is the emphasis on "everyone" having a good time at the gaming table? The first paragraph says a lot of the builds on the CO forum are created just to see what's possible, but then you ask how those builds emphasize everyone having a good time during a session. No DM in their right mind would allow half the builds on the CO board. And no player in his right mind would use half the builds on the CO board. When my group was getting ready to start a new set of modules, I told my DM, "I'm thinking about playing a Hulking Hurler build. It will eventually be able to throw the world." He said, "Ok, go ahead." Maybe he thought I was kidding about what the character could do. Of course, I wouldn't and didn't actually play that. The CO forum is a fun read to see what's broken but to also see what's possible. I hadn't played a fighter in ages because they're too straight-forward a lot of the time, but thanks to the CO forum and seeing how certain feats and a prestige class or two work together, now I'm playing one, and he's actually harder to play in a fight than a wizard or something since if I'm not thinking tactically the whole time, he's dead. And even if I wanted to try to min/max him and see how much max damage he could do and all that, he'd still be a wimp compared to my straight Druid with nothing really special done to him. I don't know why this kind of conversation gets so either/or so often. Going all-out on a build is just as bad as not knowing much powergaming because a wimpy character can be a big hindrance to the rest of the party, forcing the other players to pick up their slack because the person is a burden. Funny part is, the less experience a player has, the more they might be inclined to powergame, and yet the less they should be playing a powerful character anyway. A couple of the less-experienced players in my group have started working on more powerful characters, which is fine, but then they sometimes don't have the additional knowledge to play those characters correctly in a fight without endangering the rest of the party. Misjudging area-of-effect spells, summoning swarms that then attack other party members, moving 5' and wind up blocking the charge the barbarian was going to do on his turn, etc. And, who knows, maybe that's part of why you may not see as much powergaming for Eberron. I'd think more-experienced players would be playing Eberron at this time, and more-experienced players have usually outgrown both munchkinism and dinner-theater character histories and things.
Inkling 10-13-05, 07:44 PM	No DM in their right mind would allow half the builds on the CO board. And no player in his right mind would use half the builds on the CO board. When my group was getting ready to start a new set of modules, I told my DM, "I'm thinking about playing a Hulking Hurler build. It will eventually be able to throw the world." He said, "Ok, go ahead." Maybe he thought I was kidding about what the character could do. Of course, I wouldn't and didn't actually play that. Come on now, everyone knows the "planet throwing hulk hurler" and "killer kobold" builds were joke threads. They were more about pointing out all the loopholes in D&D rules than creating a character that someone would actually use in a game session. Most of the threads on the CO board are asking for ways to tweak out a character concept they created. Most of the threads are along the lines of: "Any ideas for Super-spy changeling builds?" or "Druid/Warlock/Arcane Heirophant ok?" where someone has an idea for a character concept and just wants advice on how to get the most out of the character or if the character build is actually playable in a real game.
deusxmachina 10-13-05, 11:36 PM	Come on now, everyone knows the "planet throwing hulk hurler" and "killer kobold" builds were joke threads. They were more about pointing out all the loopholes in D&D rules than creating a character that someone would actually use in a game session. I think I mentioned that. The CO boards show what is possible, and it's up to the person's maturity level and/or playing environment to determine how far to scale those possibilities back to make them playable with the group.
boytbpc 10-14-05, 10:23 PM	Are you saying that power gamers don't realize this? No, if you read my previous posts you would have realized that I am a min/maxer. What I meant is that if you are having problems in your group with munchkins trying to 'beat' the game, then maybe they don't realize that the point is fun for all. I have played with too many people who didn't realize this. It isn't just powergamers who fail to realize this. I have a player who is a consummate role-player, but he never brought in the other players. So although he is a great roleplayer, no one else was having fun with him. When I told them this, he was struck dumb. He knew it to be true, he knew it to be right, but he never thought of it before it was brought to his attention. So, T.W.S., no I'm not saying the power gamers don't realize this, I am saying that many players don't realize this. Boytbpc
Llochlyn 10-14-05, 11:41 PM	I will just report you something I've lived at a table, wich is hilarious, and mixes powergaming and roleplaying We used a point buy system, to ensure everyone was at the same level somewhat. A new player came, with a level 1 character in our level 8 party (wich ended up at the edge of death fighting minor encounters and won the day in one round at every major fight agains evildoers... actually our first D&D table) This new player was new to the game, and, even our characters were far unoptimized, really, we could help him build something crunchy enough to survive by our side... He'd gone for a lawful good rapier elf fighter... well, why not, but quite harsh to play for a beginner We explained each characteristics, helped him chose his feats etc... He dumped on wisdom, cause he said "I wan't to be some kind of heroic jump around d'artagnan" ... in french for a better charisma... he really dumped on wisdom (7 or 8)... selected bluff as a cross class skill, jump and tumble cross class... Something in between candor and power gaming i would say (no swashbuckler class back that time), but it was his character... 7 levels lower than us, he saved our life twice out of cunning strategies (let's call it actually sheer luck) And endangered them some more times out of naiveness : DM : "As you walk through the marshes, you spot something scally lurking in the water... As it approaches, some of it emerges, it's some kind of chitinous exoskeleton" Player : "I pat it on what might be the shoulder to sympathize" (looow wis) DM : "... eeeer well... eeeer... Okaaay soooo... well... " Then the cthuul's claw came out of the water and grappled him, shaking into the air amazed of this misinterpretation of his intention... fun fight... That was the stupid roleplay is possible and can be fun with minmaxers part Last fight we had, him level 3, BBtraitor guy who was kind of mentor for us... estimated level 16-18... He successfully disarmed him out of luck and optimization, and the second weapon failed it's save againt an heigthened [read optimized] heat metal... Munchkinry, now roleplayry Well, who runs faster in the party ? [munchkinry] Grab them and run in the dungeon we crossed... While I as a druid summon bears to slow him down (he knocked them off actually... BIG bad traitor guy) Most hilarious fight of all times, and quite in character too (druid bard = humorous, halfling rogue = malicious, Stupid fighter = eermm just fun) What if our characters power is here, but is also a way to emphasize their role play, and how can "role play" succesfully exploit character's power... It has been said, but D&D is BOTH of the worlds, because it's D&D and will always be, for some people... The goal of this game is having everyone enjoy, and if every player at the table is powergamer who KNOWS how to properly play (and when to powergame) without spending hours making math at the table, and is able to roleplay their character... I don't see how it can be possibly incompatible with Eberron Yes, Eberron is this kind of setting that remembers the characters are truely unique individuals... well, allow them to be truly unique their own way, it's your work as a DM to level the ground of power... A player wants to be powerful allright, then he explains the game mechanics to his fellow players, and they are powerful together, and as individuals... And YOU DM, explain them how roleplaying works and set the rules. You, as a DM, give your players tools to immerse in roleplaying experience, by having roleplaying NPCs, by forcing players to at least explain what they try to do "no you don't diplomacy him, what kind of things will you tell him etc..." Remember players can't be their characters so don't expect too much... If bob has got a low charisma, there's no way he can fast talk as well as his bard magically because he's sitting at the table, but YOU can help him to get close to it... I once had a player that was powergaming and not roleplaying at all... Just told him that : So, if you don't roleplay well, half XP... It's totally arbitrary, but we'd love to hear you talk so I have to... Miracle, he's become a nice roleplayer, and I never had to cut his XP actually :) Wow long post, sorry for the bad english and the length player's name was not Bob, no offense to be taken by any bob either... His name was Mike
g. felix 10-15-05, 12:28 AM	make fun of me, that is fine, but what is CO? i am guessing some sort of person who likes to interact with the environment instead of kill everything. please help me. i think powergamers, those guys who are chaotic neutral so they can take advantage of every situation, the same guys who take a level of barbarian when they have never even met one, the guys who do 50 points of damage each attack;are childish and boring. I would much rather play with someone who has a character with character; the storings of losing or doing something stupid are just as much fun as the ones where you killed the bad monster. In fact, the stupid things make the good kills even more enjoyable. of course, i would never tell someone how to do things, i only know what i enjoy. And enjoyment is why us 30 yo's play this game.
The White Sorcerer 10-15-05, 12:46 AM	No, if you read my previous posts you would have realized that I am a min/maxer. What I meant is that if you are having problems in your group with munchkins trying to 'beat' the game, then maybe they don't realize that the point is fun for all. I have played with too many people who didn't realize this. Ah, you were talking about munchkins, not power gamers. Sorry, my mistake.
Inkling 10-16-05, 03:35 PM	make fun of me, that is fine, but what is CO? i am guessing some sort of person who likes to interact with the environment instead of kill everything. please help me.CO = Character Optimization. CO Board/Forum/Threads = the Character Optimization forum here: http://boards.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339 From the CO FAQ (pay special attention to point #3 below): Q: What is CO? A: That’s not as easy and straight forward as you might think. Here are some ways of describing CO. Description 1: Min/Max – Character Optimization is when you Maximize a characters advantages and minimize their weaknesses. Description 2: Math – Character Optimization is the part of character development that is mathematical in nature. Attack Bonus, Armor Class, HP and so forth are the parts of a character that this board is concerned with. Of course it’s not that simple. Min/Maxing has rules, guidelines and customs. First off, let me tell you that there is no ultimate gaming authority. Therefore the exact definition of most gaming terms does not exist. Instead the definition is based on a group consensus. (I am going to largely use the term Min/Maxing in this section. Since the term CO is exclusive to these boards, and CO=Min/maxing, it makes more sense to refer to min/maxing than CO when talking about the community in general) It is generally agreed by min/maxing aficionados that min/maxing must follow certain guidelines: Min/Maxing… 1) …is always constrained by the rules at hand. 2) …must have some kind of numerical advantage. 3) …is not the opposite of role-playing. 1) The rules are vital to min/maxing. If you ignore the rules you are cheating, not min/maxing. Anyone can just cheat on a character and give them powers and skills just by writing them down on a character sheet. A min/maxer will attempt to find a perfect blend of race, class and equipment that gives them everything they want. Changing the rules is kind of a sticky subject for min/maxing. Technically if you just change the rules then you are not truly min/maxing. Then again if your DM has made the changes and you are just exploiting them, then that should be considered min/maxing. To make things even more murky there are some common house rules included in discussions of min/maxing. So how do you tell the difference between cheating and min/maxing? Well, here are some cases: If the written rules allow for some combination, then it is min/maxing. If by changing some rule you can do something really cool, then that is cheating. If you can convince you DM to change a rule based on the rule itself being bad or unfair, and it allows you to do something really cool, that is min/maxing. 2) Even if something is really cool, it is not min/maxing unless it grants you some kind of numerical superiority. In other words simply getting a power that allows you to shoot fire out of your fingertips is not min/maxing. But being able to cause the most damage with fire fingers is min/maxing. As far as anyone interested in min/maxing is concerned that is enough justification. Making the ultimate “read lips” character is reason enough to maximize read lips. 3) Have you ever gone camping? You can only fill up one backpack so you have to decide what you will take. You know you need to be comfortable, safe and fed. So you try to put together the best combination of gear given your limitation of space and weight. Now, because you have taken the time and effort to put together a really effective kit, do you enjoy nature any less? That is the best analogy of min/maxing and role-playing I can think of. Just because you put together a really cool fighter are you now going to role-play him badly? No of course not. You may play him badly anyway but that is not related to him being min/maxed.
Thievingrouge 10-25-05, 09:59 PM	It just dawned on me what may be the problem! How old are you? How old are your players? What is the average level of education completed? Would you classify the people who have a problem with power gaming as someone who is using D&D to escape the reality of their already dreary existence, or as someone who uses it spice up their life and help them depart from their existential thinking and develop more metaphysical pathways? If you were playing a fun co-ed street hockey (basketball, etc) game would these guys check the girls, because, "hey, its not a foul!" or do they realize that the purpose of the game is fun for all? I am an adult, I have completed university, and so have my players. Everyone realizes that the purpose is fun for all, not simply for one person to 'win'. Let me know what you think. I am 16. My goal isn't to win, it is to beat my enemies. There is always some thing cooler than me.
Medesha 10-26-05, 03:50 AM	I can play powergaming or IDRP. I don't really care as long as the whole group is on the same page. I currently DM a 13th-level party in Eberron who are pretty awesomely min/maxed, fwiw. Btw, love all the FR bashing. Makes me feel ashamed and guilty to love the setting.
LuciferNietzsche 10-26-05, 08:19 AM	There's nothing inherently wrong with min/maxing. The camping analogy is a good one, but truthfully, there's an ultimate way to configure your backpack so you're always the most prepared you can be. So your backpack's contents would never change. That doesn't make you enjoy nature any less...but in D&D, everyone doing everything the same way is both boring and unrealistic. It doesn't happen much at all, I admit, but it does happen, and it's becoming more frequent. I've heard of people who found out that with a chain lash, a fighter with the proper feats is nearly untouchable except by magic, the have reach and can strike adjacent foes. I'm tempted to have someone build just such a fighter and to build a somewhat more conventional fighter of my own, just to do my best to make sure that chain fighter doesn't become popular. D&D would be horribly boring if everyone played the same type of melee, skillful, or spellcasting character... Or worse yet...exalted one type above the others, claiming that the others aren't at all worthwhile in light of the uber-potential of the one type. Granted that'll get you results...but sheesh, could it be anymore power-greedy, right-wing? Building your character properly is important, because if you don't, you're dead, it's as simple as that. But, various adventurers choose their paths not because it's the best way, but because they BELIEVE it's the best way. One kind of fighter may be inherently superior to another style of fighter...but that's not why the inferior one chose his style. He chose it because he thought it was the best, or didn't know there was something potentially better. If you're going to optimize your character, great...just don't do it from your point of view...do it from your character's. And no one say, "but I do, I look at it from their point of view," because I'll bet only a handful actually do (and to that handful, I applaud you), and I never lose bets. If, during the process of creation, you never once look at a feat, spell selection, skill selection, item, multiclass option, or PrC and think, "that would be perfect for me, but I know my character wouldn't actually do it, or isn't in the right mindset for it," then chances are you're doing things from your point of view, not theirs. It's always possible that things just happen to work out just fine with the way you play your character, might even be likely...but at some point, that situation or some similar one should come up, and if it's not, then you're probably not seeing things through their eyes. D&D is a cross between an ad-lib sketch comedy, and a shakespearean play. We're not in it to perform, we're in it to have fun. We don't have a script, but we're still actors on a stage of sorts with roles to play, hence, role-playing. If we're not having fun, we're doing something wrong. If we're not filling our role, both in optimization and in personality, properly...we're probably not having fun either.