Economic Superiority of the Dragonmarked Houses [Archive] - Wizards Community

Economic Superiority of the Dragonmarked Houses [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bholdr_mage
02-19-07, 02:44 PM I'm curious about how MUCH superiority of magical trade the Dragonmarked Houses have in your game.

Obviously, through the marks themselves, the "marked" members of the houses have advantages over the Ma and Pa store on the corner in the slums.

But is this enough to form monopolies? The way I see it, Dragonmarked Houses are kind of like Wal-Mart. They offer lower prices than the casual warforged artificer could sell and make a living off of. Of course the Houses have an impact on buisnesses that are in no way connected to the house.

Pg 62 of the ECS mentions guilds. So does this mean that if some magic item shop owner joins a guild, he gets support; as in advertising, word of mouth (positive anyway), possible loans from the houses at lower interest, etc. from the respective house?

What of the ones that aren't in the guild themselves? Would you think that these businesses would charge more for their services AND get harassed by the houses to join the guild (at a cost per month, of course) or be run out of business?

Keith, I'd like to get your intention of economic power the Houses have in comparison to non-affiliated "shops" in the setting if you have the time. What does everyone else think?
Nived
02-19-07, 02:57 PM Small town, but large enough to support two blacksmiths, there's enough work mending things shoeing horses, and general work to go around. One makes a deal with House Cannith to become part of their guild. The guild sends some people out to inspect his facilities, make sure his work is up to guild quality and what not... it is. He gets the stamp of approval and he gets to put the guild seal on his sign.

While he does have to pay his guild dues, he now gets his raw materials at a lower cost. House C buys in bulk and distributes said materials, while the independant smith has to more or less order for every job he does individually.

Soon between the people's trust in the guild seal and his ability to undercut his competator, the guild smith is getting the better and higher paying jobs while the independant merchant eeeks out a living.

Perhaps through loyalty and hard work the independant smith can continue to make a living... but he's not going to be as successful or as stable as the guild smith.
Elemental_Elf
02-19-07, 04:58 PM Guilds have monopolies, that is a huge percentage of the market, but not all of it. Villages will likely possess few if any guilds held with in their limits. Most likely you'll have a small time, independent craftsman working on commission. This is esspecially true for nations outside of the 5. The Dragonmarks are firmly established in the 5 nations but not as much in outlying countries, like Lhazaar, Q'Barra and Droaam.

Yet as the Nived said, members of the Guild receive cheaper materials, a broader market and the almighty seal, 3 things independent craftsmen will never have. Thus the Guild Members will always have better, easier lives in terms of business.

Personally I don't see the Dragonmarked houses needing to physically bully small time craftsmen - they can do it with their prices. The Dragonmarked houses can do the same thing that Wal*Mart does every day - Move into a new town, drastically undercut all of their prices to the point where they are taking a significant loss, thus forcing local businesses to capitulate and close up shop. Following that Wal*Mart-like Dragonmarked Houses slowly raises prices so that they earn a profit. And thus the DMHs have run all competition out of town with out ever lifting a finger.
bholdr_mage
02-19-07, 09:19 PM Wouldn't this have caused particular anti-dragonmarked house groups though? Like Wal-mart, groups tend to rally against that. It's normally not in force...yet. But it might in the future.

Of course, I'm sure such a thing exists...and this could actually be great campaign material. The PCs are hired to find the culprit of sabotage in a particular dragonmarked house...say Phiarlan. Clues are throughout that Thuranni played a role and is the culprit, but some things don't click. In actuality, it's a group against dragonmarked houses, trying to turn them against one another by making them spend their assets on finding the problem maker.

This could be quite interesting...
UnderworldLord
02-19-07, 09:27 PM Don't think of it like Wal-Mart. Think of it like a drug dealer who's buisness is legit. The houses do stuff that isn't legal, and they get away with it through sheer power and influence. We have a house [or two] based on entertainment and spying. Sure people may not always like Cannith cornering the market, but how are they going to argue? You're not just going up against a buisness like walmart: you're going up against a power player who's been building reputation and wealth for longer than you've been alive.
(Psi)SeveredHead
02-19-07, 10:52 PM So many groups could be opposed to the DMHs. Jealous nobles and governments, aberrants, now business groups or struggling business people. I think that would be a cool power group. They need a name, nickname, and symbol. I like "Clean Slate" as a nickname myself (as in "erasing marks", heh heh heh).

Don't think of it like Wal-Mart. ... a power player who's been building reputation and wealth for longer than you've been alive.

Um, that is Wal-Mart! :D I just had to say that.
The Fireballed Mage
02-19-07, 11:11 PM Wouldn't this have caused particular anti-dragonmarked house groups though? Like Wal-mart, groups tend to rally against that. It's normally not in force...yet. But it might in the future.

But you do have to remember, that according to the ECS, 60% of the population have less than 50 sp to their name. While more educated and mobile than peasants in real world feudal societies... they're still peasants. Farmers, unskilled labourers, tradesfolk (ECS pag 132). Most of these people are living day-to-day, and if they know a House run guild will provide will quality product at a reasonable price...

For the other end of the social spectrum: the rich like to hang out with the other rich (ie: Dragonmark nobles), and the Houses have enough money and influence to crush serious competition before it can become a threat.

While Eberron does have some trappings of the modern age, its always good to remember that many people should still have a feudal mind set: it's still fantasy after all. While some groups (like adventuerers) like to cause trouble, most people know their place in soceity and don't want to rock the boat.

However, you are correct it that having some anti-House groups would make for a set of good adventure hooks. Works even better if there's more to it than just, "we don't like Wal-mart," but instead who is behind this anti-House group and why are they doing it.
Splendide
02-19-07, 11:52 PM In my Eberron, Zilargo have a ridiculous number of negotiations in place with the various Dragonmarked houses, Cannith included.

One of the organizations that works to maintain these long-held agreements is the East Bank Dining Club, an association of independent Trolanport craftsmen and artificers. If you're looking for some way to get your party to steal prototypes, schemas or similar things from Cannith, these guys would be good backers...think of them as a very focused Aurum, looking to make money and keep Zilargo on top.
bholdr_mage
02-26-07, 04:24 PM The bankers definitely have an upper hand, as does house sivis. I think there's some DMH that have a more probablility for power than others. Those that deal with information over travel, for example.

Thanks for the feedback, and definitely the idea about zilargo, those gnomes have their noses in everything!

It's been a while since I've ran an Eberron Campaign (going on a year now), so getting refreshers before I delve into the material again always gets the story going.
Euangelion
02-26-07, 05:21 PM The economic superiority of the DM Houses is made possible by dragonshard focus items, such as lightning reigns and the speaking stones. Think of any business a house is involved in and there's a dragonshard focus item behind it, an item only someone with the proper dragonmark can use. Basically, if you want to reduce the power of the DM houses in your game, take away their focus items. Thus in such a world an heir of Lyrandar could use their dragonmarks to push ships along faster than normal, but no more so than anyone with access to the spell gust of wind, nor could they control bound elementals better than anyone else.

Undoubtably, House Cannith has items that allow it to produce mundane and magical items much more easily than anyone else, perhaps focus items that emulate and stack with the Legendary, Extraordinary, and Exceptional Artisan feats.

Edit: and to address a previous point, those in the proper guild could thus purchase items that are beyond their ability to create for themselves wholesale from Cannith at a lower price than anywhere else, which allows either to undersell their competitors or take home a larger profit, or both.
Romulus LoneWolf
02-26-07, 05:54 PM Here's how I look at it... Few outsiders can rival the economic might of the Dragonmarked Houses and their respective Guilds...

So this means a Dragonmarked Guildmember's biggest economic rival...

...Is another Dragonmarked Guildmember.

Using House Cannith as an exemple, I don't see the Fabricators as company-owned factories, but rather as individual craftsmen officially liscenced by the House to perform their craft. Each craftsmen does his work, not only to make a daily living, but also to increase his reputation and standing within the Guild. The higher the standing, the higher ranking of clients you attract, and the more prestige and wealth you make.

This, of course, means that competition between Guildmates is fierce; Cannith Fabricators are constantly trying to one-up each other in terms of item quality, quantity and customer service. Spying on a rival is common, sabotaging their business isn't unknown, and there are sadly the occasional assassination of a perticularly hated rival, which the House seriously frowns upon.

So, if your character is a House Cannith Artificer, he probably thinks he's got nothing to fear in terms of competition from rivals outside the House. And he's probably right; he should be more careful about his fellow Housemembers, especially if a ruthless upstart wants that swordmaking contract with Duke Ir'Toriun...
DragoonDarkfire
02-26-07, 06:05 PM Not every nation has equal shares of Dragomarked houses. Only the original 4 nations really do in my opinion (4 if you don't count old warped and destroyed Cyre).

The Moror Holds are basically the strong hold of Kundark and since Dwarves are such good smiths anyway and with access to the mineral wealth of the holds I don't see why they'd need house cannith making their weapons or armor.

The Eldeen reaches are Valdallis's stronghold and since most people there rely on the support of nature and the druids (and the Ashbound being so "Anti magic" and all) I can't see that many houses being involved with the Reaches (other then the above mentioned Valdallis)

Drooam, Shadow Marshes and Darrgun? Tharask all the way. Save for Denieths large connection with Darrgun that uses it as a hold for the nation.

I don't see the houses having much use for Qubarra or the Demon Waests.

Valenear? Thus far only Lyndara has made good connections with it.

Lhazara Principalities? Thunnani, what would honest business have in a haven for pirates?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bholdr_mage 02-19-07, 02:44 PM	I'm curious about how MUCH superiority of magical trade the Dragonmarked Houses have in your game. Obviously, through the marks themselves, the "marked" members of the houses have advantages over the Ma and Pa store on the corner in the slums. But is this enough to form monopolies? The way I see it, Dragonmarked Houses are kind of like Wal-Mart. They offer lower prices than the casual warforged artificer could sell and make a living off of. Of course the Houses have an impact on buisnesses that are in no way connected to the house. Pg 62 of the ECS mentions guilds. So does this mean that if some magic item shop owner joins a guild, he gets support; as in advertising, word of mouth (positive anyway), possible loans from the houses at lower interest, etc. from the respective house? What of the ones that aren't in the guild themselves? Would you think that these businesses would charge more for their services AND get harassed by the houses to join the guild (at a cost per month, of course) or be run out of business? Keith, I'd like to get your intention of economic power the Houses have in comparison to non-affiliated "shops" in the setting if you have the time. What does everyone else think?
Nived 02-19-07, 02:57 PM	Small town, but large enough to support two blacksmiths, there's enough work mending things shoeing horses, and general work to go around. One makes a deal with House Cannith to become part of their guild. The guild sends some people out to inspect his facilities, make sure his work is up to guild quality and what not... it is. He gets the stamp of approval and he gets to put the guild seal on his sign. While he does have to pay his guild dues, he now gets his raw materials at a lower cost. House C buys in bulk and distributes said materials, while the independant smith has to more or less order for every job he does individually. Soon between the people's trust in the guild seal and his ability to undercut his competator, the guild smith is getting the better and higher paying jobs while the independant merchant eeeks out a living. Perhaps through loyalty and hard work the independant smith can continue to make a living... but he's not going to be as successful or as stable as the guild smith.
Elemental_Elf 02-19-07, 04:58 PM	Guilds have monopolies, that is a huge percentage of the market, but not all of it. Villages will likely possess few if any guilds held with in their limits. Most likely you'll have a small time, independent craftsman working on commission. This is esspecially true for nations outside of the 5. The Dragonmarks are firmly established in the 5 nations but not as much in outlying countries, like Lhazaar, Q'Barra and Droaam. Yet as the Nived said, members of the Guild receive cheaper materials, a broader market and the almighty seal, 3 things independent craftsmen will never have. Thus the Guild Members will always have better, easier lives in terms of business. Personally I don't see the Dragonmarked houses needing to physically bully small time craftsmen - they can do it with their prices. The Dragonmarked houses can do the same thing that WalMart does every day - Move into a new town, drastically undercut all of their prices to the point where they are taking a significant loss, thus forcing local businesses to capitulate and close up shop. Following that WalMart-like Dragonmarked Houses slowly raises prices so that they earn a profit. And thus the DMHs have run all competition out of town with out ever lifting a finger.
bholdr_mage 02-19-07, 09:19 PM	Wouldn't this have caused particular anti-dragonmarked house groups though? Like Wal-mart, groups tend to rally against that. It's normally not in force...yet. But it might in the future. Of course, I'm sure such a thing exists...and this could actually be great campaign material. The PCs are hired to find the culprit of sabotage in a particular dragonmarked house...say Phiarlan. Clues are throughout that Thuranni played a role and is the culprit, but some things don't click. In actuality, it's a group against dragonmarked houses, trying to turn them against one another by making them spend their assets on finding the problem maker. This could be quite interesting...
UnderworldLord 02-19-07, 09:27 PM	Don't think of it like Wal-Mart. Think of it like a drug dealer who's buisness is legit. The houses do stuff that isn't legal, and they get away with it through sheer power and influence. We have a house [or two] based on entertainment and spying. Sure people may not always like Cannith cornering the market, but how are they going to argue? You're not just going up against a buisness like walmart: you're going up against a power player who's been building reputation and wealth for longer than you've been alive.
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-19-07, 10:52 PM	So many groups could be opposed to the DMHs. Jealous nobles and governments, aberrants, now business groups or struggling business people. I think that would be a cool power group. They need a name, nickname, and symbol. I like "Clean Slate" as a nickname myself (as in "erasing marks", heh heh heh). Don't think of it like Wal-Mart. ... a power player who's been building reputation and wealth for longer than you've been alive. Um, that is Wal-Mart! :D I just had to say that.
The Fireballed Mage 02-19-07, 11:11 PM	Wouldn't this have caused particular anti-dragonmarked house groups though? Like Wal-mart, groups tend to rally against that. It's normally not in force...yet. But it might in the future. But you do have to remember, that according to the ECS, 60% of the population have less than 50 sp to their name. While more educated and mobile than peasants in real world feudal societies... they're still peasants. Farmers, unskilled labourers, tradesfolk (ECS pag 132). Most of these people are living day-to-day, and if they know a House run guild will provide will quality product at a reasonable price... For the other end of the social spectrum: the rich like to hang out with the other rich (ie: Dragonmark nobles), and the Houses have enough money and influence to crush serious competition before it can become a threat. While Eberron does have some trappings of the modern age, its always good to remember that many people should still have a feudal mind set: it's still fantasy after all. While some groups (like adventuerers) like to cause trouble, most people know their place in soceity and don't want to rock the boat. However, you are correct it that having some anti-House groups would make for a set of good adventure hooks. Works even better if there's more to it than just, "we don't like Wal-mart," but instead who is behind this anti-House group and why are they doing it.
Splendide 02-19-07, 11:52 PM	In my Eberron, Zilargo have a ridiculous number of negotiations in place with the various Dragonmarked houses, Cannith included. One of the organizations that works to maintain these long-held agreements is the East Bank Dining Club, an association of independent Trolanport craftsmen and artificers. If you're looking for some way to get your party to steal prototypes, schemas or similar things from Cannith, these guys would be good backers...think of them as a very focused Aurum, looking to make money and keep Zilargo on top.
bholdr_mage 02-26-07, 04:24 PM	The bankers definitely have an upper hand, as does house sivis. I think there's some DMH that have a more probablility for power than others. Those that deal with information over travel, for example. Thanks for the feedback, and definitely the idea about zilargo, those gnomes have their noses in everything! It's been a while since I've ran an Eberron Campaign (going on a year now), so getting refreshers before I delve into the material again always gets the story going.
Euangelion 02-26-07, 05:21 PM	The economic superiority of the DM Houses is made possible by dragonshard focus items, such as lightning reigns and the speaking stones. Think of any business a house is involved in and there's a dragonshard focus item behind it, an item only someone with the proper dragonmark can use. Basically, if you want to reduce the power of the DM houses in your game, take away their focus items. Thus in such a world an heir of Lyrandar could use their dragonmarks to push ships along faster than normal, but no more so than anyone with access to the spell gust of wind, nor could they control bound elementals better than anyone else. Undoubtably, House Cannith has items that allow it to produce mundane and magical items much more easily than anyone else, perhaps focus items that emulate and stack with the Legendary, Extraordinary, and Exceptional Artisan feats. Edit: and to address a previous point, those in the proper guild could thus purchase items that are beyond their ability to create for themselves wholesale from Cannith at a lower price than anywhere else, which allows either to undersell their competitors or take home a larger profit, or both.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-26-07, 05:54 PM	Here's how I look at it... Few outsiders can rival the economic might of the Dragonmarked Houses and their respective Guilds... So this means a Dragonmarked Guildmember's biggest economic rival... ...Is another Dragonmarked Guildmember. Using House Cannith as an exemple, I don't see the Fabricators as company-owned factories, but rather as individual craftsmen officially liscenced by the House to perform their craft. Each craftsmen does his work, not only to make a daily living, but also to increase his reputation and standing within the Guild. The higher the standing, the higher ranking of clients you attract, and the more prestige and wealth you make. This, of course, means that competition between Guildmates is fierce; Cannith Fabricators are constantly trying to one-up each other in terms of item quality, quantity and customer service. Spying on a rival is common, sabotaging their business isn't unknown, and there are sadly the occasional assassination of a perticularly hated rival, which the House seriously frowns upon. So, if your character is a House Cannith Artificer, he probably thinks he's got nothing to fear in terms of competition from rivals outside the House. And he's probably right; he should be more careful about his fellow Housemembers, especially if a ruthless upstart wants that swordmaking contract with Duke Ir'Toriun...
DragoonDarkfire 02-26-07, 06:05 PM	Not every nation has equal shares of Dragomarked houses. Only the original 4 nations really do in my opinion (4 if you don't count old warped and destroyed Cyre). The Moror Holds are basically the strong hold of Kundark and since Dwarves are such good smiths anyway and with access to the mineral wealth of the holds I don't see why they'd need house cannith making their weapons or armor. The Eldeen reaches are Valdallis's stronghold and since most people there rely on the support of nature and the druids (and the Ashbound being so "Anti magic" and all) I can't see that many houses being involved with the Reaches (other then the above mentioned Valdallis) Drooam, Shadow Marshes and Darrgun? Tharask all the way. Save for Denieths large connection with Darrgun that uses it as a hold for the nation. I don't see the houses having much use for Qubarra or the Demon Waests. Valenear? Thus far only Lyndara has made good connections with it. Lhazara Principalities? Thunnani, what would honest business have in a haven for pirates?