Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elderich 09-23-06, 11:08 AM	Discussion Thread Response (Sam S.) 09/21/2006 10:19 AM Hi there E, The FAQ entry will be changed to this: When an artificer scribes a scroll, is it an arcane scroll, a divine scroll, or neither? Actually, it’s neither. According to the official errata for the Eberron campaign setting, the magic items crafted by an artificer are neither arcane nor divine. This has no bearing on the artificer’s ability to use the scroll, but it means that the scroll is useless to any other character without a successful Use Magic Device check. Take Care and Good Gaming! :) We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Sam Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST Stay tuned for film at 11:00
Loki5654 09-23-06, 07:44 PM	'Bout time they got around to that one. Nice to see they went that direction with it, a lot of people would have been sorely disappointed if they'd gone the other way with it.
Engilbrand 09-24-06, 10:36 AM	So an Artificer can use a scroll without any danger of ASF, right?
Just another user 09-24-06, 11:15 AM	So an Artificer can use a scroll without any danger of ASF, right? No, an artificer use a scroll with an UMD check like everyone else. Personally I don't liekthis rules because it make artificers less useful in the world, why couldn't just say that a) an artificer must specify if the scroll he create is arcane or divine and b) they can't be used to learn spells from?
DarkPawn 09-24-06, 12:20 PM	So an Artificer can use a scroll without any danger of ASF, right? Any artificer can use scrolls that he or other artificers make without ASF. If it is an arcane spell scroll they suffer ASF.
Elderich 09-25-06, 01:02 PM	EXCLUSIVE UPDATE Thank you Sam. I ment to ask about both the FAQ entries. You addressed the first. There is another Question pending and not yet addressed. The very next question in the FAQ "Are artificers required to use arcane material components or arcane foci for infusions that simulate spells? What about a divine focus?" The answer given ALSO contradicts the ECS Errata. The RESPONSE Hi there E, At this time, there is not an official answer for the components issue. I've passed the discrepancy along to the appropriate departments to be clarified in the future. When it is fixed, it will be updated in the respective document. Thank you for your patience. Take Care and Good Gaming! :) Hey, can you ask about scrolls in your own thread?
Sereno 09-26-06, 09:15 AM	Personally I don't liekthis rules because it make artificers less useful in the world, why couldn't just say that a) an artificer must specify if the scroll he create is arcane or divine and b) they can't be used to learn spells from? But, how do you explain (B) if you accept (A), though? DM: You find an arcane scroll; Dimension Door. PC (Wizard): Hey! Did you say Dimension Door? Sweet! I'm going to scribe it in my book! DM: You can't. PC (Wizard): Why not? DM: 'Cause an artificer made it. PC (Wizard): But, you said it was arcane. DM: I know, but an artificer made it ... you can't scribe from it. But, you can cast from the scroll like normal, without UMD! PC (Wizard): WTF?! I can USE it like normal, but I can't SCRIBE it like normal. DM: Yup, 'cause an artificer made it. PC (Wizard): Friggin' artificers!
The Livewire 10-01-06, 12:50 AM	please tell me this negates the sage, again. Else the wizard/archivist/mystic theurge w/artifcer cohort rears his ugly head again.
HarmonysRage 10-01-06, 05:14 AM	NVM... I stand corrected.
Elderich 02-27-07, 03:46 PM	no update yet.
yrogerg 02-28-07, 07:25 AM	But, how do you explain (B) if you accept (A), though? DM: You find an arcane scroll; Dimension Door. PC (Wizard): Hey! Did you say Dimension Door? Sweet! I'm going to scribe it in my book! DM: You can't. PC (Wizard): Why not? DM: 'Cause an artificer made it. PC (Wizard): But, you said it was arcane. DM: I know, but an artificer made it ... you can't scribe from it. But, you can cast from the scroll like normal, without UMD! PC (Wizard): WTF?! I can USE it like normal, but I can't SCRIBE it like normal. DM: Yup, 'cause an artificer made it. PC (Wizard): Friggin' artificers! Actually, that's part of the issue, isn't it? If an artificer is supposed to be a major feature of the world -and in particular, the major source of crafted items- then where is the Wizard getting all these scrolls to copy into his spellbook, anyway? I suppose he *could* just be getting them all from other Wizards, but that just strikes me as *wrong* somehow, and vaguely the point of adding extra item crafting setting-dressing. I always thought that useful magic items were supposed to be part of the artificers' "footprint" in the setting.
Bluebrush 02-28-07, 08:47 AM	I'd prefer to just rule that an artificer scroll can be cast by anyone with the spell on their spell list, no ASF, or used with UMD. Also, you can't learn spells from them.
Elderich 02-28-07, 12:27 PM	Ok this is off topic, but whatever. I'd prefer to just rule that an artificer scroll can be cast by anyone with the spell on their spell list, no ASF, or used with UMD. Also, you can't learn spells from them.Why not? I cannot see any reason why a wizard should not be able to scribe from the scroll.
Edymnion 02-28-07, 12:32 PM	please tell me this negates the sage, again.Who cares what the sage says? The only thing that actually counts, rules wise, are the written books and the official eratta. The sage can say elves get a +20 racial bonus to Craft (Toys), the FAQ can say the same thing, but if its not in the PHB, and its not in the PHB errata, it don't happen. The sage, reguardless of who is wearing the mantel, is just one guy tossing out his opinions willy nilly. No better or worse than most of the "normal" people like us on the boards.
Kreistor2 02-28-07, 02:00 PM	Who cares what the sage says? The only thing that actually counts, rules wise, are the written books and the official eratta. The sage can say elves get a +20 racial bonus to Craft (Toys), the FAQ can say the same thing, but if its not in the PHB, and its not in the PHB errata, it don't happen. Because the writers do not always see that one sentence can be interpreted in multiple ways. And sometimes, people intentionally misinterpret rules in order to make what they want out of sentences that are intended to be read completely differently. There needs to be someone without an agenda interpreting the rules.
Lilinthra 02-28-07, 02:43 PM	Who cares what the sage says? The only thing that actually counts, rules wise, are the written books and the official eratta. The sage can say elves get a +20 racial bonus to Craft (Toys), the FAQ can say the same thing, but if its not in the PHB, and its not in the PHB errata, it don't happen. The sage, reguardless of who is wearing the mantel, is just one guy tossing out his opinions willy nilly. No better or worse than most of the "normal" people like us on the boards. The one problem with this is that it seems that WotC has cut back on errata updates, if not stopped completely.
Emeramber 02-28-07, 04:19 PM	Of course, this begs the question, is there, or should there be, a difference in price between artificer scrolls and what I can only call "Real" scrolls. Scroll A (For artificer) is neither arcane nor divine, so a wizard needs UMD (unlikely), a cleric needs UMD (also unlikely). The rogue still needs UMD. There's a pattern here... And even if it's a scroll of Summon Monster 3 (available to both Cleric and Wizard), it's as hard for them to UMD as a scroll of Summon Nature's ally, even if they actually have they know SM3 already. The wizard also can't scribe it. Scroll B (For Better) is either Arcane or Divine, allowing the Wizard or Cleric to use it properly. The other is out of luck, which is to say it has all the limitations noted above. If it's arcane, the wizard can even add it to her book. Somehow, Scroll B just seems, well, better than scroll A. Usually a mechanical difference is reflected in price, but not this time. Sadly, I see it likely that most people would say that Scroll A is the base cost one, and real scrolls (a la PHB, DMG, etc.) would be marked up, or at least unavailable, but doesn't that kind of hurt the people scrolls were really made for. (And I mean casters, not rogues, btw.)
Millenia 02-28-07, 04:31 PM	Scroll B (For Better) is either Arcane or Divine, allowing the Wizard or Cleric to use it properly. The other is out of luck, which is to say it has all the limitations noted above. If it's arcane, the wizard can even add it to her book. The problem with this, though, is that a wizard and an artificer can work together to give the wizard all wizard spells ever, barring monetary/time limitations (which can be circumvented with that Blessed Book of Boccob or whatever). ^^;a
Emeramber 02-28-07, 04:57 PM	I understand why they're doing it, in theory. However, that's what a scroll DOES. If they wanted something that doesn't work like a scroll, they should have instead not given them the ability to use their artificer creation rules on scrolls (even if they take the feat) and given them craft talisman (OA) or a similar one shot spell effect. If they are going to make scrolls, they should make scrolls, not psuedo-scroll rip-offs. Oh, and an artificer can give anyone all benefits, essentially, barring time/money limits.
Artector 02-28-07, 05:08 PM	The problem with this, though, is that a wizard and an artificer can work together to give the wizard all wizard spells ever, barring monetary/time limitations (which can be circumvented with that Blessed Book of Boccob or whatever). ^^;a Barring very real limits the Artificer can. Anyone think that's reasonable? I do. Because you are removing two important limits. A wizard can do it anyways. Barring Money limits of course. See my point? In my campaigns Artificers will scribe arcane or divine scrolls. It just makes sense.
Edymnion 02-28-07, 05:43 PM	There needs to be someone without an agenda interpreting the rules.Which cannot happen. Anyone with enough rules knowledge to serve in the position will also have an opinion about how they think the rules are supposed to work, if they actually work that way or not. The problem is that a position of authority like this should not be given to a single individual with apparent lack of oversight and controls. We need a Sage Council, not a Sage. Say three people, and they cannot publish any answer unless at least two of them agree that the answer is correct. And, if possible, all three of them should be differant ends of the spectrum (like a powergamer ruleslawyer, a hardcore roleplayer, and a moderate in between the two).
Nightshade 02-28-07, 06:39 PM	Barring very real limits the Artificer can. Anyone think that's reasonable? I do. Because you are removing two important limits. A wizard can do it anyways. Barring Money limits of course. See my point? In my campaigns Artificers will scribe arcane or divine scrolls. It just makes sense. I agree with you Artector. In my game, Artificer Infusions are neither Arcane nor Divine (and therefore not subject to things like arcane Pearls of Power. But Artificer magic items are either arcane or divine, including scrolls. Therefore, the Artificer is subject to Arcane Spell Failure and this is a major drawback to an artificer wearing medium armor. Personally, I think it's a requirement to balance Artificer's out. [EDIT:] At the same time, there is an arcane component of some kind to Artificer scrolls that is missing and that prevents those scrolls from being copied into Wizard spellbooks. Non-Artificers do not need to make a UMD check if the spell is on their class lists. I was thinking of adding a requirement that the spell caster must first cast Read Magic to understand the item but this actually hasn't come up in my campaign yet so I haven't decided.
yrogerg 02-28-07, 09:21 PM	The problem with this, though, is that a wizard and an artificer can work together to give the wizard all wizard spells ever, barring monetary/time limitations (which can be circumvented with that Blessed Book of Boccob or whatever). ^^;a But what keeps a Wizard from buying all spells ever, though? When it comes right down to it, it's only the DM's say-so about the availability of that knowledge and/or whether it can be found/created via research. I would hazard to say (while still attempting to skirt the boards fallacy related to this), that the same should apply to Artificers. In fact, "you don't know how to create that effect" seems a lot more plausible in many instances than "you can't find anyone in the continent's biggest city that has that knowledge". IMO, at least.
Epicweaver 03-01-07, 12:33 PM	I've always felt that Artificer scrolls were different the Wizard/Cleric beyond the given descriptions. Imagine if you will... A wizard casts a spell through a scroll, the scroll instructs the wizard to hold his hands in the proper way to create the proper gestures. The scroll also instructs the wizard in the necessary words of power that must be spoken. And finally, the scroll is consumed in the triggering of the arcane spell (the scroll itself providing the necessary additional components/experience/etc as needed). An artificer has a scroll, the scroll depicts a complicated group of symbols, having little to no words for it (note that most, if not all, infusions have no verbal component). The artificers scroll also instructs him to hold his hands in a proper way and create the proper gestures (which are different then the arcane spell being duplicated). I see how these can be different, but perhaps that's just a "fluffed" approach to the "crunch" of the matter.
Cromag 03-01-07, 01:37 PM	The problem with this, though, is that a wizard and an artificer can work together to give the wizard all wizard spells ever, barring monetary/time limitations (which can be circumvented with that Blessed Book of Boccob or whatever). ^^;a I'm going to go with a big "who cares" regarding this. Clerics Know all cleric spells ever Druids Know all druid spells ever Artificers Know all Artificer infusions ever Warmages Know all warmage spells ever Beguilers Know all beguiler spells ever Duskblades Know all duskblade spells ever Soooooo what's the problem with a wizard having to spend cash like a gunshot victim spills blood? The entire Idea of a wizard over a sorcerer is that he -can- learn every spell ever, as long as he shells out the cash and the time. I just count artificer spells as either the arcane or divine, if it can be cast as either (for example hold person) I let the artificer choose. Notice how I mention hold person, like animate dead it has a different cost and spell level associated with it depending on the type of scroll. This is another important reason why it can (and should) be selected as one or the other.
Elderich 03-01-07, 03:27 PM	The problem with this, though, is that a wizard and an artificer can work together to give the wizard all wizard spells ever, barring monetary/time limitations (which can be circumvented with that Blessed Book of Boccob or whatever). ^^;aIn Ebberon any wizard may join a guild and get any spell anyway. I agree Cromag. It just makes no sense to restrict the artificer in this way. I did see on some designers website a 1st level infusion that made an artificers scroll either arcane or divine. I put that in my campaign, and that was that.
Cromag 03-01-07, 03:34 PM	Here's something I just saw from Rich Baker, regarding a warlocks ability to do basically the same thing. Q: In reference to the “Imbue Item” ability, if you have the feat "Scribe Scroll" and you create an Arcane Scroll with any spell of your choosing can a Wizard learn this as a new spell and/or copy it into his spell book? Since the Warlock doesn't know any spells, then what is to prevent him/her to try to imbue an arcane scroll with a brand new spell. Something a wizard would typically have to research to get. Assuming that you follow the guidelines for spell creation. A: I chatted with the developers about the Imbue Item-Scribe Scroll trick for giving the warlock nigh-infinite spell diversity, and we realized pretty quick that it's not broken. Here's why: 1. The warlock is supposed to be able to read off other class's scrolls and use their spell trigger items by means of a great Use Magic Device check. 2. Given that, the warlock can just *buy* scrolls or staffs at full market price and use them easily anyway. 3. Therefore, Imbue Item really only gives you the opportunity to expend a feat choice and buy one category of magic items at half-price... spending some XP and some time to manufacture your price break. 4. If you were scribing scrolls of interesting spells your wizard buddy would want to learn, you could have just *bought* your wizard buddy a scroll of that spell and given it to him. You didn't need to make it yourself, really. So, it's a good tactic, and some smart play, but it's not as crazy as it might seem at first glance. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=405215 (for the source)
Elderich 03-01-07, 04:03 PM	Excellent post. This should be in the handbook. IMHO.
ressurrector 03-01-07, 04:16 PM	Seriously, Wizards still have to choose their spells beforehand, even if they have 20 auron's spellshards full they still have limited spells at any given point in time. They still have to shell out for theose Boccob's blessed books or Aureon's spellshards in the first place. They still have to limit it to one spell scribed into spellbook per day. What is the balance issue here?
Wrathamon 03-02-07, 06:35 PM	3. Therefore, Imbue Item really only gives you the opportunity to expend a feat choice and buy one category of magic items at half-price... spending some XP and some time to manufacture your price break. But that puts the power of Choice squarely in the Player's hands... The DM is hard pressed to be able control what is or isnt available when the player says I made it. I have noticed that the power is being given to the player's and less to the DM in the rules. Like that one feat in Complete Scroundrel ( I beleive) that lets you tell the DM that this magic item is in this store or something obsurd to that affect. sorry this is off topic :"(
Elderich 03-02-07, 06:48 PM	The DM is hard pressed to be able control what is or isnt available when the player says I made it. I have noticed that the power is being given to the player's and less to the DM in the rules.It is OT. But anyway... The DM can simply say no to any spell that is a problem. As to the players/DM thing... I think it just makes sense that we should move from the DM as a dictator to the DM and players as a group having fun.
ressurrector 03-03-07, 07:17 AM	Part of why everything in the item crafting section for making up new items is called "Guidelines for crafting" Meaning the DM has final OK for any item not specifically present in a book. The DM also has final OK for any item not from core.
Wrathamon 03-03-07, 12:11 PM	The DM also has final OK for any item not from core. shouldn't they have final say on any item even if it is core?
ressurrector 03-03-07, 03:14 PM	shouldn't they have final say on any item even if it is core? Ideally yes, however there are some who would argue. Personally I've re-done plenty of the core items changing cost and such.
eRaz0r 03-09-07, 06:47 PM	But, how do you explain (B) if you accept (A), though? DM: You find an arcane scroll; Dimension Door. PC (Wizard): Hey! Did you say Dimension Door? Sweet! I'm going to scribe it in my book! DM: You can't. PC (Wizard): Why not? DM: 'Cause an artificer made it. PC (Wizard): But, you said it was arcane. DM: I know, but an artificer made it ... you can't scribe from it. But, you can cast from the scroll like normal, without UMD! PC (Wizard): WTF?! I can USE it like normal, but I can't SCRIBE it like normal. DM: Yup, 'cause an artificer made it. PC (Wizard): Friggin' artificers! Is this better or worse than : ________________________________ DM: You find an artificer scroll; Dimension Door. PC (Wizard): Hey! Did you say Dimension Door? Sweet! I'm going to scribe it in my book! DM: You can't. PC (Wizard) : Why not ? DM: I said it was an artificer scroll. If you want to even cast from it, it's a UMD check. PC (Wizard) : Friggin' artificers! Or ________________________________ DM: You find a divine scroll; Dimension Door. PC (Wizard): Hey! Did you say Dimension Door? Sweet! I'm going to scribe it in my book! DM: You can't. PC (Wizard) : Why not ? DM: I said it was a divine scroll. If you want to even cast from it, it's a UMD check. You see, it was scribed by a Cleric with the Travel Domain. PC (Wizard) : Friggin' clerics! The only game-balance reason to make the artificer scrolls "neither arcane nor divine" is to prevent infinite Wizard spell book cheese. And the only reason to prevent that is not because of found treasure (which the DM is in control of), but because of PC interaction - if the artificer in the party can make scrolls that his wizard friend can scribe, one 'balancing' tool of the DM is taken away (spell-access for wizards). The problem here is really an assumption that DMs need to balance spell-access for Wizards. In theory, the Cleric's spell access is balanced by "role-playing" : their divine spell lists are granted by their Deity who can decide not to grant certain spells. However, few DMs ever exercise this option, and so the Cleric enjoys unlimited access to their entire spell list each day .. and they get more slots. (admittedly, the extra slots are balanced a little by the usual "Dumb fighter need heal!!11!" spontaneous spell sacrifice clerics usually need). The wizard needs to spend time and money to add each spell to their book, and *also* gets shafted by DMs who "don't like that spell". Well guess what? The arcane spell list just isn't that powerful anymore, compared with the divine spell lists , so this ancient and artificial limit on spell acquisition is a phantom problem. All that is an aside : it's magic. To me, a limit on scribing (but NOT using) an artificers "arcane" scroll is no more inherently unbelievable than the idea that the artificer produces "non-arcane, arcane" scrolls that ALWAYS need a UMD check to use, by anyone... And no more annoying to the wizard player in practice than the appearance of a dozen divine scrolls as loot, and not a single arcane one. Or to put it a different way : DM: You find an arcane wand; Dimension Door. PC (Wizard): Hey! Did you say Dimension Door? Sweet! I'm going to scribe it in my book! DM: You can't. PC (Wizard): Why not? DM: 'Cause it's a wand, dufus ! PC (Wizard): But, you said it was arcane. DM: I know, but it's a wand... you can't scribe from it. But, you can cast spells from the wand like normal, without UMD! PC (Wizard): WTF?! I can USE it like normal, but I can't SCRIBE it like a scroll? DM: Yup, 'cause it's a wand PC (Wizard): Friggin' wands ! No wizard I know would turn up their nose at extra power that they didn't have to spend their cash on, whether they can scribe from it or not.
Elderich 03-09-07, 06:54 PM	The only game-balance reason to make the artificer scrolls "neither arcane nor divine" is to prevent infinite Wizard spell book cheese.Except that ANY wizard already has access to ANY spell the DM/group allows in Ebberon thru Guilds. And it actually costs less thru a guild!