Education and school-years [Archive] - Wizards Community

Education and school-years [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Morgengrauen
07-28-06, 06:03 AM How exactly does the Eberron education system works? There are some information in the Sourcebook, but not that much.

Do all people in the middle class go to school? Are there teacher? It reminds me of Harry Potter. How long does the education last? Is it connected to the races? Or do only human have the education?
JayDubya
07-28-06, 08:27 AM I'd bet places like Sharn, Korranburg, Fairhaven, Karrlakton, etc. (the largest cities) there are a wide variety of private schools. Medium sized cities probably have a single private school in town. People living in smaller towns would have to send their kids off if they wanted them educated. I'd bet the Silver Flamers provide schools with a religious bent throughout Thrane.

The ECS doesn't talk much about education outside of universities, though I'm sure private schools exist that aren't only for the ir' and d' crowd of nobility and wealth.

* * *

Now I apologize but I can't talk about public versus private schools etc without a little bit of politics working their way in, even when discussion Eberron. It's that whole "private vs. public and what should the state provide vs. what it shouldn't" debate.

I won't be arguing real world politics, however, nor will I be arguing anything outside of suggesting that certain nations in Eberron may be a certain way politically.

The ECS also doesn't go into politics very much if at all with regards to national policy (and I can't say I blame Mr. Baker for not wanting to get heavily involved with that sort of thing), so I'm not sure which nations would be likely to have public education.

I don't see Breland having them because I see Breland (under Boranel) to be a very socially liberal but fiscally rightist society, i.e. private industry, private schools, private everything, laissez faire economics (and this idea is reinforced throughout Dragonshards and sourcebooks alike).

The realworld right vs. left fiscal scale doesn't really work in a fantasy setting where almost all nations are monarchies and there's no Marx equivalent, so it's hard to say, oh Aundair is similar to France, therefore it's a socialist nation - but that can't be right. How could it be socialist when it's a traditional monarchy... especially when France is the way it is due to revolution against the monarchy?

One can, however look at Thrane and see similarities to the Vatican and the power it wields over nations - and understand that the nature of tithing to the church to give to the poor and build social improvements and missions etc when the church IS the state means that Thrane would have to be fairly leftist even if it is also socially conservative. I can certainly see the state opening up free schools for the public but I also see those schools being strongly laced with the state religion.

The upswing of this is that THAT is how I see the Thrane vs. Breland conflict. On the surface you wonder how they could have problems with one another outside of geography, but when I add the political element into the mix, it makes sense. It isn't just LG church vs. CG king, it's a libertarian, strongly capitalist society versus an authoritarian, weakly socialist society - and that is a conflict I can certainly understand.
DragonWatcher
07-28-06, 09:40 AM For what it's worth, in MY Eberron... there's no organized education other than the Universities.

The way that I see it, the people receive the education that they need to survive through passing down knowledge from one generation to the next. It's more of a master/apprentice system than anything resembling formal education, and in a society based on the productivity of the people, it would seem to me that formal schools (public or private) would be a waste of the people's time.

It's just as easy for a parent to teach their child to read, write, speak, and do basic math at home, and this is all that's really necessary for the majority of the population. Specific vocation skills would be learned by apprenticing with a master (or at least skilled practitioner) of that trade. You want to be a blacksmith... find a blacksmith to teach you.

Sure, temples and monasteries teach their monks and clergy, but that's because the monks and clergy NEED to be better educated. Likewise, Arcanix and the Twelve also teach their apprentice wizards more than just magic. That said, I don't see them offering mundane education in the way of primary/middle/highschool level education to the masses.

Even the Universities seem more geared toward research than general education. They're trying to work out the secrets of the past, and present. What happened in Xen'drick, what level of magic did the giants possess, what caused the Mourning, etc.

So, in my game, there is no school year, Breland doesn't have an extensive public education system, and the Church of the Silver Flame doesn't have a Sacred Heart Academy in every major city. People are educated by a combination of their families, their mentors, and their life experiences. :)
DarkWarriorKarg
07-28-06, 10:05 AM <sarcasm>Let's ignore the fact that only barbarians are illiterate (their less important warrior cousins in the tribe have found the time to read/write, though).</sarcasm>

I see basic education being a requirement in the 5 nations. You don't have to go to school, but everything is written down... so you need basic skills. "School", in this case, is more like the 1-room schoolhouse of day past. 3 Rs. That's it. And if you nee dto work the fields instead, that's what you do.

<sarcasm>Obviously, the barbarian tribes exempt those who have the gift of becoming barbarians. Probably out of safety for the teachers.</sarcasm>

Outside of the 5 nations?
Zilargo: Education is required as a matter of course. It's a bardic nation.

Dargunn: Required if you want to get anywhere. But it's more like advanced Klingon studies (dismemberment 101, advanced pillaging 211) The goal is to get an MBA (Master of Barbarian Anger).
Kalanth
07-28-06, 10:10 AM I never thought about it because my players do not have children in character. The only time that has happened was last time I was a player, and the characters daughter was to young.

I would suspect the more "diplomatic" nations would be working toward establishing school systems, but with nothing set as of now. I can see Breeland as being a nation that want to establish school systems, but this would all be based on how the nation went when King Boranel passes. If the government was overturned and goes towards a democracy I can see them wanting all their people to be vastly "improved" in all ways. Setting schooling would help the nation bring in more money, and turn out a great gross national product. Of course, there is the opposite direction where the nation stays a Monarchy and in that the government turns down the proposition of schooling in their nation. Morgrave university continues to focus on history, and the other hush hush projects they work on and never try to advance the civilization further.

Aundair is another that I can see focusing on education, maybe even more so than Breeland. My only Eberron character was a Lyrandar Half-Elf who moved to Aundair to recieve an education and came home to Sharn as a Historian. I have always looked at Aundair as a nation that is more accepting of the concept of formal education.
Sereno
07-28-06, 10:54 AM Here's the relevant info from the Campaign Setting:

EDUCATION

Throughout the Five Nations (or at least what’s left of them), formal schooling is considered a right and a necessary part of every child’s training. Rural manors maintain schools for the sons and daughters of the peasants and laborers. Private tutors provide an education for the children of royal and economic nobility. In towns and cities, schools cater to all who wish to attend. In no case is education mandatory; however, most people understand the advantages offered to them by the remnants of the Galifar education system.

Higher education and study is available at a number of colleges and universities, as well as among the religious institutions. For those who don’t want to become scholars, apprenticeships and on-the-job training replace higher education. The exception to this system involves magewrights and wizards, who must attend one of the magical colleges for at least some of their training.

Formal schooling seems to be encouraged and paid for by the state (at the manor/local lord level in most cases).

After basic ed., things move on to the apprentice/mentor or private tutor until university.
JayDubya
07-28-06, 11:26 AM We'd really need more information about the "Galifar education system" to know what its remnants would be like and whether it was regulated / paid for at the local level, the "state" level (Aundair, Breland, Cyre, Karrnath, Thrane), or the national level (Galifar).

It does seem that in the 5N, education is publically provided if a child wishes it, though how that's handled precisely is kind of iffy given two paragraphs in the ECS. I'll have to review my copy of the 5N sourcebook.
Inncubi
07-28-06, 11:37 AM I'm a newbie at this Eberron thing; but I believe some help can come from this front.
I'll base this post on the info given by the other memebers concerning nations.
If Eberron has a medieval level technical application, the wealthier classes -nobles and the "bourgeoisie"- probably have personal turors attending their younger boys. Even in bardic tradition, a personal tutor allows for control on what teachings the youngster is receiving and can attend the VERY important social obligations his family has.
The working classes probably are organized into guilds -varying from lawyers to blacksmiths- and the parents interested might "give away" their sons / daughters to well known crafters, artisans and what-nots who, as part of the deal, swear not to reveal the guilds secrets. In big cities there might even be lots of guilds with the same area of expertise.
Religious teaching goes more from cathecism and religious history given by the local priest, who is someone tied deeply to his people -he attends births, tends the sick, is there when your loved ones die, buries them, etc- and gives also moral counseling. A "school" as we know it is propbably far from the idea of a medieval world, even a techno-magical medieval world. Universities on the other hand tech medicine astronomy/astrology, philosophy/theology, medicine, and the arts to the same students. The specialized teaching is more contemporary.
Magical teaching is probably seen as philosophy, and essential -the basics at least- to every person who can afford some tutors and university. Discussions in noble reunions probably need as much knowledge arcana and spellcraft as social graces, because it probably IS a central debate topic, and you don't want to be seen as ignorant.
Most learning is done by self-taught individuals, who get the books and read -I recommend reading Abraham's Lincoln's "notes on lawyers" and his letters on how self-teaching is the best way to become one-.
Politically speaking, before saying this government is leftist or whatever, you must think what does the government defines as education, and what politics he has on educated citizens. For example 4th century bC Athens gave to the poor citizens governement paid entrance to the theater, which was covered by taxing the rich ones. THAT was education to their eyes, the academies -Plato's, Aristotle's- were more like think tanks, and some weren't appreciated by the state.
Nowadays, the theater is for fun, a diversion and the academy is education. This point can be stressed and worked deeply into the world of Eberron.
And yes guilds are productive, they are the backbone of all the liberal revolutions -as they become the ascending liberal bougeoisie-.
Splendide
07-28-06, 08:08 PM Most people here went a different way than I expected, so I'll chip in.

Temple schools: Whether its Silver Flame or Sovereign Host, religion is the business of getting you to think how they want. There are few better means to achieving this than through education. All the temple needs to provide is a place to study, and wives of farmers and other people of education help the priests do the job. Here you'll learn the three Rs, a bunch of stories, and some basic history, geography and religion.

Clan schools: In the cities of the Mror Holds, it would be most likely that each clan has its own educational facilities, in addition to temple schools.

House schools: In certain regions, Dragonmarked houses themselves may have schools. In rural regions the most likely would be Lyrandar and Vadalis, who would teach the basic stuff you'd learn at temple school with a practical bent. Lyrandar would have large geography and profession (farming) components, Vadalis would be ready to tutor in biology and basic techniques for magical enhancement (for the dealing with magebred horses). In addition, in each of their headquarter capitals, all of the Dragonmarked houses no doubt have their own schools.

Village schools: If you're too worthless to be even a little important to one of the above organizations, you'll just be learning whatever you can from anyone that will teach you. I would imagine a large amount of infrastructure in Valenar is hurting, from a human perspective, and only Cyran pride would keep them educated.

Royal edict: If Newthrone in Q'barra doesn't have schools, Sebastes is ignoring the Galifar ideal, so lets assume they do and they study one hell of a lot of history. :D
Ellorin
07-29-06, 04:00 PM Sereno and Splendide have covered it very well in my opinion. I just wanted to add my speculations about...

Riedra: Where common Riedrans are concerned, just the 3 Rs with a little Common. Everything else seems contrary to the way Riedra is ruled. Of course, the vessels are a totally different matter... I would expect a quite broad and carefully modelled system here.

Aerenal: It's the exclusive responsibility of the line. Each line has its own customs, but in general the standards would be high and the Aereni would be well-educated indeed. The key here is a different view of time and focus. The master-apprentice system could work in the case of the PC.

The Lhazaar principalities: Princes Rygar ir' Wynarn and Kolberkon would certainly follow the Galifar model...not sure about the others.

Stormreach: Here temple schools, private tutors and possibly House schools are the norm.
Romulus LoneWolf
07-29-06, 05:13 PM Since Eberron uses a medieval model, Universities are definetly possible for advanced education, and would likely be sponsored by powerful nobles as a matter of prestige. Sharn's Morgrave University is definetly a good model, although I'm certain many more universities would exist throughout the Five Nations.

Lower education would best be handled by private tutors, homeschooling or church-run schools, as mentioned above.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Morgengrauen 07-28-06, 06:03 AM	How exactly does the Eberron education system works? There are some information in the Sourcebook, but not that much. Do all people in the middle class go to school? Are there teacher? It reminds me of Harry Potter. How long does the education last? Is it connected to the races? Or do only human have the education?
JayDubya 07-28-06, 08:27 AM	I'd bet places like Sharn, Korranburg, Fairhaven, Karrlakton, etc. (the largest cities) there are a wide variety of private schools. Medium sized cities probably have a single private school in town. People living in smaller towns would have to send their kids off if they wanted them educated. I'd bet the Silver Flamers provide schools with a religious bent throughout Thrane. The ECS doesn't talk much about education outside of universities, though I'm sure private schools exist that aren't only for the ir' and d' crowd of nobility and wealth. * * * Now I apologize but I can't talk about public versus private schools etc without a little bit of politics working their way in, even when discussion Eberron. It's that whole "private vs. public and what should the state provide vs. what it shouldn't" debate. I won't be arguing real world politics, however, nor will I be arguing anything outside of suggesting that certain nations in Eberron may be a certain way politically. The ECS also doesn't go into politics very much if at all with regards to national policy (and I can't say I blame Mr. Baker for not wanting to get heavily involved with that sort of thing), so I'm not sure which nations would be likely to have public education. I don't see Breland having them because I see Breland (under Boranel) to be a very socially liberal but fiscally rightist society, i.e. private industry, private schools, private everything, laissez faire economics (and this idea is reinforced throughout Dragonshards and sourcebooks alike). The realworld right vs. left fiscal scale doesn't really work in a fantasy setting where almost all nations are monarchies and there's no Marx equivalent, so it's hard to say, oh Aundair is similar to France, therefore it's a socialist nation - but that can't be right. How could it be socialist when it's a traditional monarchy... especially when France is the way it is due to revolution against the monarchy? One can, however look at Thrane and see similarities to the Vatican and the power it wields over nations - and understand that the nature of tithing to the church to give to the poor and build social improvements and missions etc when the church IS the state means that Thrane would have to be fairly leftist even if it is also socially conservative. I can certainly see the state opening up free schools for the public but I also see those schools being strongly laced with the state religion. The upswing of this is that THAT is how I see the Thrane vs. Breland conflict. On the surface you wonder how they could have problems with one another outside of geography, but when I add the political element into the mix, it makes sense. It isn't just LG church vs. CG king, it's a libertarian, strongly capitalist society versus an authoritarian, weakly socialist society - and that is a conflict I can certainly understand.
DragonWatcher 07-28-06, 09:40 AM	For what it's worth, in MY Eberron... there's no organized education other than the Universities. The way that I see it, the people receive the education that they need to survive through passing down knowledge from one generation to the next. It's more of a master/apprentice system than anything resembling formal education, and in a society based on the productivity of the people, it would seem to me that formal schools (public or private) would be a waste of the people's time. It's just as easy for a parent to teach their child to read, write, speak, and do basic math at home, and this is all that's really necessary for the majority of the population. Specific vocation skills would be learned by apprenticing with a master (or at least skilled practitioner) of that trade. You want to be a blacksmith... find a blacksmith to teach you. Sure, temples and monasteries teach their monks and clergy, but that's because the monks and clergy NEED to be better educated. Likewise, Arcanix and the Twelve also teach their apprentice wizards more than just magic. That said, I don't see them offering mundane education in the way of primary/middle/highschool level education to the masses. Even the Universities seem more geared toward research than general education. They're trying to work out the secrets of the past, and present. What happened in Xen'drick, what level of magic did the giants possess, what caused the Mourning, etc. So, in my game, there is no school year, Breland doesn't have an extensive public education system, and the Church of the Silver Flame doesn't have a Sacred Heart Academy in every major city. People are educated by a combination of their families, their mentors, and their life experiences. :)
DarkWarriorKarg 07-28-06, 10:05 AM	<sarcasm>Let's ignore the fact that only barbarians are illiterate (their less important warrior cousins in the tribe have found the time to read/write, though).</sarcasm> I see basic education being a requirement in the 5 nations. You don't have to go to school, but everything is written down... so you need basic skills. "School", in this case, is more like the 1-room schoolhouse of day past. 3 Rs. That's it. And if you nee dto work the fields instead, that's what you do. <sarcasm>Obviously, the barbarian tribes exempt those who have the gift of becoming barbarians. Probably out of safety for the teachers.</sarcasm> Outside of the 5 nations? Zilargo: Education is required as a matter of course. It's a bardic nation. Dargunn: Required if you want to get anywhere. But it's more like advanced Klingon studies (dismemberment 101, advanced pillaging 211) The goal is to get an MBA (Master of Barbarian Anger).
Kalanth 07-28-06, 10:10 AM	I never thought about it because my players do not have children in character. The only time that has happened was last time I was a player, and the characters daughter was to young. I would suspect the more "diplomatic" nations would be working toward establishing school systems, but with nothing set as of now. I can see Breeland as being a nation that want to establish school systems, but this would all be based on how the nation went when King Boranel passes. If the government was overturned and goes towards a democracy I can see them wanting all their people to be vastly "improved" in all ways. Setting schooling would help the nation bring in more money, and turn out a great gross national product. Of course, there is the opposite direction where the nation stays a Monarchy and in that the government turns down the proposition of schooling in their nation. Morgrave university continues to focus on history, and the other hush hush projects they work on and never try to advance the civilization further. Aundair is another that I can see focusing on education, maybe even more so than Breeland. My only Eberron character was a Lyrandar Half-Elf who moved to Aundair to recieve an education and came home to Sharn as a Historian. I have always looked at Aundair as a nation that is more accepting of the concept of formal education.
Sereno 07-28-06, 10:54 AM	Here's the relevant info from the Campaign Setting: EDUCATION Throughout the Five Nations (or at least what’s left of them), formal schooling is considered a right and a necessary part of every child’s training. Rural manors maintain schools for the sons and daughters of the peasants and laborers. Private tutors provide an education for the children of royal and economic nobility. In towns and cities, schools cater to all who wish to attend. In no case is education mandatory; however, most people understand the advantages offered to them by the remnants of the Galifar education system. Higher education and study is available at a number of colleges and universities, as well as among the religious institutions. For those who don’t want to become scholars, apprenticeships and on-the-job training replace higher education. The exception to this system involves magewrights and wizards, who must attend one of the magical colleges for at least some of their training. Formal schooling seems to be encouraged and paid for by the state (at the manor/local lord level in most cases). After basic ed., things move on to the apprentice/mentor or private tutor until university.
JayDubya 07-28-06, 11:26 AM	We'd really need more information about the "Galifar education system" to know what its remnants would be like and whether it was regulated / paid for at the local level, the "state" level (Aundair, Breland, Cyre, Karrnath, Thrane), or the national level (Galifar). It does seem that in the 5N, education is publically provided if a child wishes it, though how that's handled precisely is kind of iffy given two paragraphs in the ECS. I'll have to review my copy of the 5N sourcebook.
Inncubi 07-28-06, 11:37 AM	I'm a newbie at this Eberron thing; but I believe some help can come from this front. I'll base this post on the info given by the other memebers concerning nations. If Eberron has a medieval level technical application, the wealthier classes -nobles and the "bourgeoisie"- probably have personal turors attending their younger boys. Even in bardic tradition, a personal tutor allows for control on what teachings the youngster is receiving and can attend the VERY important social obligations his family has. The working classes probably are organized into guilds -varying from lawyers to blacksmiths- and the parents interested might "give away" their sons / daughters to well known crafters, artisans and what-nots who, as part of the deal, swear not to reveal the guilds secrets. In big cities there might even be lots of guilds with the same area of expertise. Religious teaching goes more from cathecism and religious history given by the local priest, who is someone tied deeply to his people -he attends births, tends the sick, is there when your loved ones die, buries them, etc- and gives also moral counseling. A "school" as we know it is propbably far from the idea of a medieval world, even a techno-magical medieval world. Universities on the other hand tech medicine astronomy/astrology, philosophy/theology, medicine, and the arts to the same students. The specialized teaching is more contemporary. Magical teaching is probably seen as philosophy, and essential -the basics at least- to every person who can afford some tutors and university. Discussions in noble reunions probably need as much knowledge arcana and spellcraft as social graces, because it probably IS a central debate topic, and you don't want to be seen as ignorant. Most learning is done by self-taught individuals, who get the books and read -I recommend reading Abraham's Lincoln's "notes on lawyers" and his letters on how self-teaching is the best way to become one-. Politically speaking, before saying this government is leftist or whatever, you must think what does the government defines as education, and what politics he has on educated citizens. For example 4th century bC Athens gave to the poor citizens governement paid entrance to the theater, which was covered by taxing the rich ones. THAT was education to their eyes, the academies -Plato's, Aristotle's- were more like think tanks, and some weren't appreciated by the state. Nowadays, the theater is for fun, a diversion and the academy is education. This point can be stressed and worked deeply into the world of Eberron. And yes guilds are productive, they are the backbone of all the liberal revolutions -as they become the ascending liberal bougeoisie-.
Splendide 07-28-06, 08:08 PM	Most people here went a different way than I expected, so I'll chip in. Temple schools: Whether its Silver Flame or Sovereign Host, religion is the business of getting you to think how they want. There are few better means to achieving this than through education. All the temple needs to provide is a place to study, and wives of farmers and other people of education help the priests do the job. Here you'll learn the three Rs, a bunch of stories, and some basic history, geography and religion. Clan schools: In the cities of the Mror Holds, it would be most likely that each clan has its own educational facilities, in addition to temple schools. House schools: In certain regions, Dragonmarked houses themselves may have schools. In rural regions the most likely would be Lyrandar and Vadalis, who would teach the basic stuff you'd learn at temple school with a practical bent. Lyrandar would have large geography and profession (farming) components, Vadalis would be ready to tutor in biology and basic techniques for magical enhancement (for the dealing with magebred horses). In addition, in each of their headquarter capitals, all of the Dragonmarked houses no doubt have their own schools. Village schools: If you're too worthless to be even a little important to one of the above organizations, you'll just be learning whatever you can from anyone that will teach you. I would imagine a large amount of infrastructure in Valenar is hurting, from a human perspective, and only Cyran pride would keep them educated. Royal edict: If Newthrone in Q'barra doesn't have schools, Sebastes is ignoring the Galifar ideal, so lets assume they do and they study one hell of a lot of history. :D
Ellorin 07-29-06, 04:00 PM	Sereno and Splendide have covered it very well in my opinion. I just wanted to add my speculations about... Riedra: Where common Riedrans are concerned, just the 3 Rs with a little Common. Everything else seems contrary to the way Riedra is ruled. Of course, the vessels are a totally different matter... I would expect a quite broad and carefully modelled system here. Aerenal: It's the exclusive responsibility of the line. Each line has its own customs, but in general the standards would be high and the Aereni would be well-educated indeed. The key here is a different view of time and focus. The master-apprentice system could work in the case of the PC. The Lhazaar principalities: Princes Rygar ir' Wynarn and Kolberkon would certainly follow the Galifar model...not sure about the others. Stormreach: Here temple schools, private tutors and possibly House schools are the norm.
Romulus LoneWolf 07-29-06, 05:13 PM	Since Eberron uses a medieval model, Universities are definetly possible for advanced education, and would likely be sponsored by powerful nobles as a matter of prestige. Sharn's Morgrave University is definetly a good model, although I'm certain many more universities would exist throughout the Five Nations. Lower education would best be handled by private tutors, homeschooling or church-run schools, as mentioned above.