Elemental Binding Monopoly? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Elemental Binding Monopoly? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DM_Dracophile
10-12-06, 05:46 PM I was wondering, in your honored opinions, how difficult is it for a non-Gnome to track down and be trained in the art of Elemental Binding? I have a Lyrandar Artificer in my campaign that is ga-ga for Elementals and is dying to find a way to decipher the secrets of that feat.

Suggestions?
Edymnion
10-12-06, 06:54 PM Yeah, I would say the monopoly on elemental binding is pretty firmly in the tiny little fists of the gnomes. About the only other place to learn it, if not from the gnomes, is going to be going to xen'drik and getting the drow to teach it to you.

Although, I suppose a case could be made for the arcane congress and/or the twelve knowing how to do it, but getting it from them would be just as hard as getting it from the gnomes.
darkthought
10-12-06, 08:54 PM Your Artificer could run into a gnome who'd be willing to sell the secrets. The gnome needs protection from The Trust, since the gnome secret police want's to keep Elemental Binding a monopoly of the gnomes that's not one of the dragonmarked houses.

Assassinations, attempts to crash the airship with the gnome aboard, and pressure from the Houses, oh my!
Edymnion
10-12-06, 10:46 PM Your Artificer could run into a gnome who'd be willing to sell the secrets. The gnome needs protection from The Trust, since the gnome secret police want's to keep Elemental Binding a monopoly of the gnomes that's not one of the dragonmarked houses.

Assassinations, attempts to crash the airship with the gnome aboard, and pressure from the Houses, oh my!"They're already trying to kill me, what more can they do? Look, I gotta keep moving. You want the process, you gotta pony up the credits. We doing this or not?"
Elrinade
10-12-06, 11:40 PM You said that you were from the House of the Storm? They can elemental bind, they learned it from the House of Cannith when they created elemental ships and what not.
Ellorin
10-13-06, 05:25 AM You said that you were from the House of the Storm? They can elemental bind, they learned it from the House of Cannith when they created elemental ships and what not.

No, they don't know it either.And I doubt that they would share such a secret even if they did.
Just another user
10-13-06, 05:47 AM "They're already trying to kill me, what more can they do? Look, I gotta keep moving. You want the process, you gotta pony up the credits. We doing this or not?"
In a world with magic there are worse things that death :)

like, kill you, raise you, kill you again, repeat.

Baleful polymorph.

put on you a ring of regeneration, a ring of sustenance and hang you over a pack of hungry wolves, just high enough that they can only byte at your legs for, I dunno, a couple of months to start.
And that are just some examples.
DM_Dracophile
10-13-06, 06:49 AM You said that you were from the House of the Storm? They can elemental bind, they learned it from the House of Cannith when they created elemental ships and what not.

Yeah, my understanding is that House Lyrandar does not know the secrets of elemental binding, and that all their elemental ships are built in Zilargo.
The odd thing is, the Elemental Binding feat doesn't have any racial prereqs IIRC.

hmmmm
ekomega
10-13-06, 02:25 PM I calculated a long time ago that one gnome who knew Elemental Binding could've made every bound elemental vessel in Eberron since their original creation.

This, of course, is ridiculous, but the point is that probably only a handful of people know how to do it. The level requirements are high, and it is a powerful secret. I'd say less than a dozen know the secrets.
Kreistor1
10-13-06, 02:41 PM When faced with an obvious "secret" technique for creating something, humanity has shown a remarkable aptitude for either uncovering the secret to its manufacture, or creating better.

The Egyptians built massive pyramids. We don't know how they did it! Such a great secret! Except that at least three other societies replicated the feat: the Mayans, the Easter Island inhabitants, and the creators of Stonehenge. Some secret.

The Chinese had excellent porcelain. Within 100 years of "china" becoming the upper class' desired pottery, Europe was making better porcelain (despite never figuring out the specifics of the Chinese technique).

It is not inappropriate for someone in House Lyrandar to just figure out how to bind elementals, whether it is simply genius or study/adventure in Xen'drik, but it doesn't even need to be exactly the same technique as the gnomes anyway. It could be better, worse, or just different if you so desire.

In this case, here's a player offering you a major plot hook. Unless you've got better, then go with it! Half your problem is solved. You can involve House Cannith as an adversary in Xen'drik. You can smack into the Riedrans (who may also possess the knowledge of elemental binding, at your discretion). Forces of the Shadow are always interested in Secrets.

You can make it as difficult or simple as you want. You could reveal it in one trip to Xen'drik, or in three plus a trip to Sarlona, or even more if you like.
DragonWatcher
10-13-06, 03:00 PM The Egyptians built massive pyramids. We don't know how they did it! Such a great secret! Except that at least three other societies replicated the feat: the Mayans, the Easter Island inhabitants, and the creators of Stonehenge. Some secret.

Um... since when are there pyramids on Easter Island or Great Brittian? I mean, come on... there's more to building the pyramids than just moving the stone. Also, I've actually read an article (bugger me if I can remember where I saw it) that said that even with modern technology we couldn't reproduce the great pyramids in Egypt with the same precision of stonecutting and placement that they used 10,000+ years ago.

While I'm not saying that some technologies (and I suppose magics) would be impossible to reproduce, I do think that it would be a rather monumental event if this happened. If an heir of House Lyrander was able to figure out how to bind elementals (and therefore no longer needed the gnomes), I would imagine that the House would be abuzz with having him teach anyone that could learn, and conversely, I would imagine that the Trust would be looking to have this person (and any that were taught) killed off as quickly as possible.
Shady314
10-14-06, 04:16 AM The Mayan pyramids are stepped or tiered. Only Egypt has the smooth sides and pointed tips. Theirs are larger too. That's one example shot to hell.
Shady314
10-14-06, 08:24 AM How about an example of keeping a secret? China kept silk making a secret for about 2,000 years holding a monopoly on an insanely lucrative trade everyone was dying to get their hands on.
Bluebrush
10-14-06, 08:11 PM You know, the title of this thread made me think of a Korranberg based version of monopoly.

"Ha! Your Elemental galleon lands on Soverign Avenue! With three houses that means you owe me seven hundred and fifty galifars!"
"Aw crud. Looks like I'll be mortgaging Old Ghalt Road again."

Five turns later, the player with the magebred blink dog counter loses his cool over a Free Stabling houserule, flips the board over and draws his battleaxe. It all goes downhill from there.
Loki5654
10-14-06, 09:14 PM You know, the title of this thread made me think of a Korranberg based version of monopoly.

"Ha! Your Elemental galleon lands on Soverign Avenue! With three houses that means you owe me seven hundred and fifty galifars!"
"Aw crud. Looks like I'll be mortgaging Old Ghalt Road again."

Five turns later, the player with the magebred blink dog counter loses his cool over a Free Stabling houserule, flips the board over and draws his battleaxe. It all goes downhill from there.
Somebody call Parker Bros.

I want that game!
MartM
10-15-06, 03:01 AM Magic of eberron. page 10. "...small groups across Khorvaire have begun duplicating the experiment that result in elemental items..."

In short, Zilargo are the best in elemental binding, the most advanced... But others are starting to getting involved in this "science".
MartM
10-15-06, 03:02 AM Sorry, Double post...
DM_Dracophile
10-15-06, 09:52 AM Excellent! I would have missed that nugget entirely.

Arigato
Edymnion
10-16-06, 09:03 PM The Mayan pyramids are stepped or tiered. Only Egypt has the smooth sides and pointed tips. Theirs are larger too. That's one example shot to hell.Actually, the great pyramids are little more than stepped pyramids with extra blocks filling out the steps into smooth sides.

Of more interest are things like the mayan crystal skull, which is carved out of a single huge quartz block, except that it is rounded and smooth in ways that even modern gemcutters can't replicate (by everything we know, the crystal should have shattered along it's fracture planes trying to get the shapes into it that the mayans did, but there they are all the same). Or damascus steel. We can reproduce the look with modern technology, but we have not been able to reproduce all of it's qualities. Or the south american "cities" that discovered a way to make self-regenerating highly nutrient rich soil. We can use what is left to make more of it, but no one knows how to make the stuff from scratch, which could potentially end the world hunger problem by allowing us to produce rich farmland wherever in the world we needed it.

There is so much lost knowledge in the real world that may never be re-discovered. So yes, there are lots of things that can be copied to get the same effect, but then again, there are some things that once lost, the secret of their creation can never be found again.Magic of eberron. page 10. "...small groups across Khorvaire have begun duplicating the experiment that result in elemental items..."I think the key thing with this quote is that groups have begun to duplicate the experiements that result in binding elementals.

Its not unlike saying that a backwards nation is beginning to duplicate the experiments that split the first atom, and then trying to jump to the conclusion that they have nuclear power plants and the atomic bomb. No, they are beginning to head in that direction, but they are still at the beginning of the process, and/or have had only very limited successes on a small scale. They might be able to bind a fire elemental to a sword, for example, but something on the scale of binding one into an elemental ring to power an entire airship is still years ahead of them.
ekomega
10-16-06, 10:24 PM Or damascus steel. We can reproduce the look with modern technology, but we have not been able to reproduce all of it's qualities.

They reproduced damascus steel a few years ago. A materials scientist and a metallurgist teamed up. The missing key was steel from a particular area that had a very low sulfur content and a higher than normal vanadium content. It was published in a scientific journal (I don't think Nature or Science, but maybe Acta Materialia). Check Science Direct, if you are interested.

Or the south american "cities" that discovered a way to make self-regenerating highly nutrient rich soil. We can use what is left to make more of it, but no one knows how to make the stuff from scratch, which could potentially end the world hunger problem by allowing us to produce rich farmland wherever in the world we needed it.

The reason we can't do this is our heavy to desire to nitrogenate the crap out of everything. Better methods of fixing nitrogen into the soil have developed as civilization has developed. Getting more yield from crops, by changing the soil, is what has allowed humankind to flourish. Unfortunately, doing this damages the soil badly after each crop and requires rotating crops and the like.

South American soil is generally wetter, richer, and more nutrient filled, for lots of reasons. When the Mayans, etc., were living down there, they were getting their dirt from the rainforest (or right next to it). Things grow well in rainforest soil, since it's full of all kinds of everything.

As for elemental binding, it took the gnomes a lot of time to take what they learned from Xen'drik and turn it into something useful. And they had all the notes. Others trying to reproduce the technology are just reverse-engineering.

With elemental binding, House Cannith and the gnomes are selling LCD, DLP, and plasma TVs. Everyone else is still trying to build the CRT.
Kreistor1
10-17-06, 11:44 AM Um... since when are there pyramids on Easter Island or Great Brittian? I mean, come on... there's more to building the pyramids than just moving the stone.

Right, there's moving massive stones, shaping stone, and stacking it. The particulars of the shapes are only fluff.

On Easter Island, with grossly limited resources, they moved blocks as large as any pyramid stone long distances and stood them on end, and capped them with little hats.

The Mayan example is obvious. That they didn't shape the carve the corners into a flat pyramid is irrelevent: they had the stone shaping knowledge and could have.

In Great Britain, it's Stonehenge. The rocks used for that are harder (and denser) by far than anything used in the pyramids and they weren't shaped by metal tools. I've seen one person demonstrate a simple shaping method. That they didn't place the stones in a pyramid shape doesn't mean they couldn't. They could shape the rocks, move them, and had the ability to orient and stack them.

Note that I did not state that it was necessary to duplicate the specifics of one solution to demonstrate that a particular result could not be reproduced another way. Damasscus steel had a competitor we generally don't know about in the West, because it never shipped out of India. The Indians had high quality steel for longer than anyone, and it is suspected that secret of Damasscus steel was actually stolen from them. But, in the end, Europe developed the blast furnace, which could control the carbon content, and did the job much better. The point is, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and the guy that gets there first doesn't always find the best way.

It is hard to figure out lost techniques, but when techniques are currently being used, it's a lot easier. Bribery works wonders. Extortion works. Industrial theft. And so on. It is very hard to keep a secret for long periods in a world where spying is common practice.
DM_Dracophile
10-17-06, 03:57 PM *facepalm*
What have I wrought? :(
Need_A_Life
10-20-06, 07:11 AM DM_Dracophile: Let him seek out someone to teach him

Everyone else: STOP COMPARING EBERRON TO ANCIENT EGYPT/INDIA/ENGLAND/SOUTH AMERICA (or at least make a seperate topic)!

Regards,
Need_A_Life
Euangelion
10-20-06, 08:38 AM Anyway, back to the topic. First, IIRC both Magic of Eberron and PGtE mention that the Inmost will accept members of other races and that the Inmost has a good relationship with Lyrandar. But, would even the Inmost be willing to teach a member of the House the knowledge of binding, with the potential of Lyrandar no longer needing the Inmost or any other Zil organization? I'm not so sure. (On the other hand, elemental binding is a Zilargo technology, not a gnome technology. Even the writers of the sourcebooks sometimes seem to forget that saying "gnome" is not necessarily the same as saying "Zilargo.")
Second, there's another way to learn the secrets of elemental binding. Steal it from the drow. That should be fun!
Ozymandias V.
10-20-06, 03:25 PM Things grow well in rainforest soil, since it's full of all kinds of everything.

Geologists say otherwise. The soil is supporting so many plants that it's pretty leeched. Most of the nutrients in the rainforest are already in the plants and such.
Edymnion
10-23-06, 01:44 AM Geologists say otherwise. The soil is supporting so many plants that it's pretty leeched. Most of the nutrients in the rainforest are already in the plants and such.Yup, thats why slash and burn is such a problem in the rain forests. The soil is only rich and fertile while it has an active rainforest on it. Once you clear that away, the land is totally stripped of it's nutrients in only a couple years, which means you have to cut into more forest.

The south american city-state that discovered how to make this self-replinishing soil that can stand up to heavy agriculture practically pulled of a miracle that even modern biologists can't reproduce.
Dr. Benway
10-23-06, 02:46 AM Keep in mind that House Lyrander is one of the largest and most powerful organizations in the world...fully comparable to many nations in scope of both resources and influence. I honestly do not think that if those stingy midgets actually did try to keep it a secret that Lyrander wouldnt just fund spy after spy after spy until they knew the process. No matter what, no Dragonmarked house would leash themselves so completely to any single nation or group. Aside from all of that tho, the ships are keyed to Lyrander marks...they must have been present for at least the creation of the techniques that allow this. Other than that, bound elemental items, not just ships, are common enough to be in the same price range as normal magic items. That implies that enough people know how to do it to make them reasonably priced.
Yes, there are plenty of precedents for elemental binding being far from a complete monopoly. That being said, who are you going to get to build your car from scratch...Joe the mechanic? Or the factory run by the transnational corporation?

Just my 2 coppers...

DocB
:88E: vs :coolcthul who shall prevail?
Gilganarz_the_reporter
10-23-06, 05:52 AM It has also been alluded to, in MM3 if nothing else, that the drow of Xen'drik have access to elemental binding.
Recovering_Blackguard
10-23-06, 11:22 AM It has also been alluded to, in MM3 if nothing else, that the drow of Xen'drik have access to elemental binding.

As stated in Magic of Eberron, at least some of the drow of Xen'drik know the secrets of elemental binding, because it was from them that the gnomes stole the knowledge.
Thrincold
10-23-06, 02:26 PM Just my 2 cents,

You can look at elemental binding like Nuclear power. Only a few countries have the ability to harness it. Even fewer can use it as weapons. Yet, I can find tons of information on the Internet about how to enrich uranium, create a reactor, even the early theories of nuclear bombs. Does that allow me to build any of the above? No.

The same holds true with the Gnomish control of Elemental binding in Khovaire. Others have access to the benefits, can see how it is done, may even be able to watch the process.

But, to replicate it is harder than it appears. Look at Iran and N. Korea right now, both can in theory use and make nuclear devices, from reactors to bombs. Neither is successful, and the weight of nations and corporations is against them succeeding.

With the Trust behind the nation, their power and influence, and all of Zilargo against you, the odds are you may get a prototype, or even someone to help you. The moment you do though, there will the a Thronehold Nations security council meeting to embargo and fine you for your actions.

Elemental binding has limited and dangerous uses. Why on earth would any nation allow a house to have that information. They are autonomous and dangerous as they are, giving them more power is counter-intuitive to the well being of all of Khovaire.

[/rant]

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DM_Dracophile 10-12-06, 05:46 PM	I was wondering, in your honored opinions, how difficult is it for a non-Gnome to track down and be trained in the art of Elemental Binding? I have a Lyrandar Artificer in my campaign that is ga-ga for Elementals and is dying to find a way to decipher the secrets of that feat. Suggestions?
Edymnion 10-12-06, 06:54 PM	Yeah, I would say the monopoly on elemental binding is pretty firmly in the tiny little fists of the gnomes. About the only other place to learn it, if not from the gnomes, is going to be going to xen'drik and getting the drow to teach it to you. Although, I suppose a case could be made for the arcane congress and/or the twelve knowing how to do it, but getting it from them would be just as hard as getting it from the gnomes.
darkthought 10-12-06, 08:54 PM	Your Artificer could run into a gnome who'd be willing to sell the secrets. The gnome needs protection from The Trust, since the gnome secret police want's to keep Elemental Binding a monopoly of the gnomes that's not one of the dragonmarked houses. Assassinations, attempts to crash the airship with the gnome aboard, and pressure from the Houses, oh my!
Edymnion 10-12-06, 10:46 PM	Your Artificer could run into a gnome who'd be willing to sell the secrets. The gnome needs protection from The Trust, since the gnome secret police want's to keep Elemental Binding a monopoly of the gnomes that's not one of the dragonmarked houses. Assassinations, attempts to crash the airship with the gnome aboard, and pressure from the Houses, oh my!"They're already trying to kill me, what more can they do? Look, I gotta keep moving. You want the process, you gotta pony up the credits. We doing this or not?"
Elrinade 10-12-06, 11:40 PM	You said that you were from the House of the Storm? They can elemental bind, they learned it from the House of Cannith when they created elemental ships and what not.
Ellorin 10-13-06, 05:25 AM	You said that you were from the House of the Storm? They can elemental bind, they learned it from the House of Cannith when they created elemental ships and what not. No, they don't know it either.And I doubt that they would share such a secret even if they did.
Just another user 10-13-06, 05:47 AM	"They're already trying to kill me, what more can they do? Look, I gotta keep moving. You want the process, you gotta pony up the credits. We doing this or not?" In a world with magic there are worse things that death :) like, kill you, raise you, kill you again, repeat. Baleful polymorph. put on you a ring of regeneration, a ring of sustenance and hang you over a pack of hungry wolves, just high enough that they can only byte at your legs for, I dunno, a couple of months to start. And that are just some examples.
DM_Dracophile 10-13-06, 06:49 AM	You said that you were from the House of the Storm? They can elemental bind, they learned it from the House of Cannith when they created elemental ships and what not. Yeah, my understanding is that House Lyrandar does not know the secrets of elemental binding, and that all their elemental ships are built in Zilargo. The odd thing is, the Elemental Binding feat doesn't have any racial prereqs IIRC. hmmmm
ekomega 10-13-06, 02:25 PM	I calculated a long time ago that one gnome who knew Elemental Binding could've made every bound elemental vessel in Eberron since their original creation. This, of course, is ridiculous, but the point is that probably only a handful of people know how to do it. The level requirements are high, and it is a powerful secret. I'd say less than a dozen know the secrets.
Kreistor1 10-13-06, 02:41 PM	When faced with an obvious "secret" technique for creating something, humanity has shown a remarkable aptitude for either uncovering the secret to its manufacture, or creating better. The Egyptians built massive pyramids. We don't know how they did it! Such a great secret! Except that at least three other societies replicated the feat: the Mayans, the Easter Island inhabitants, and the creators of Stonehenge. Some secret. The Chinese had excellent porcelain. Within 100 years of "china" becoming the upper class' desired pottery, Europe was making better porcelain (despite never figuring out the specifics of the Chinese technique). It is not inappropriate for someone in House Lyrandar to just figure out how to bind elementals, whether it is simply genius or study/adventure in Xen'drik, but it doesn't even need to be exactly the same technique as the gnomes anyway. It could be better, worse, or just different if you so desire. In this case, here's a player offering you a major plot hook. Unless you've got better, then go with it! Half your problem is solved. You can involve House Cannith as an adversary in Xen'drik. You can smack into the Riedrans (who may also possess the knowledge of elemental binding, at your discretion). Forces of the Shadow are always interested in Secrets. You can make it as difficult or simple as you want. You could reveal it in one trip to Xen'drik, or in three plus a trip to Sarlona, or even more if you like.
DragonWatcher 10-13-06, 03:00 PM	The Egyptians built massive pyramids. We don't know how they did it! Such a great secret! Except that at least three other societies replicated the feat: the Mayans, the Easter Island inhabitants, and the creators of Stonehenge. Some secret. Um... since when are there pyramids on Easter Island or Great Brittian? I mean, come on... there's more to building the pyramids than just moving the stone. Also, I've actually read an article (bugger me if I can remember where I saw it) that said that even with modern technology we couldn't reproduce the great pyramids in Egypt with the same precision of stonecutting and placement that they used 10,000+ years ago. While I'm not saying that some technologies (and I suppose magics) would be impossible to reproduce, I do think that it would be a rather monumental event if this happened. If an heir of House Lyrander was able to figure out how to bind elementals (and therefore no longer needed the gnomes), I would imagine that the House would be abuzz with having him teach anyone that could learn, and conversely, I would imagine that the Trust would be looking to have this person (and any that were taught) killed off as quickly as possible.
Shady314 10-14-06, 04:16 AM	The Mayan pyramids are stepped or tiered. Only Egypt has the smooth sides and pointed tips. Theirs are larger too. That's one example shot to hell.
Shady314 10-14-06, 08:24 AM	How about an example of keeping a secret? China kept silk making a secret for about 2,000 years holding a monopoly on an insanely lucrative trade everyone was dying to get their hands on.
Bluebrush 10-14-06, 08:11 PM	You know, the title of this thread made me think of a Korranberg based version of monopoly. "Ha! Your Elemental galleon lands on Soverign Avenue! With three houses that means you owe me seven hundred and fifty galifars!" "Aw crud. Looks like I'll be mortgaging Old Ghalt Road again." Five turns later, the player with the magebred blink dog counter loses his cool over a Free Stabling houserule, flips the board over and draws his battleaxe. It all goes downhill from there.
Loki5654 10-14-06, 09:14 PM	You know, the title of this thread made me think of a Korranberg based version of monopoly. "Ha! Your Elemental galleon lands on Soverign Avenue! With three houses that means you owe me seven hundred and fifty galifars!" "Aw crud. Looks like I'll be mortgaging Old Ghalt Road again." Five turns later, the player with the magebred blink dog counter loses his cool over a Free Stabling houserule, flips the board over and draws his battleaxe. It all goes downhill from there. Somebody call Parker Bros. I want that game!
MartM 10-15-06, 03:01 AM	Magic of eberron. page 10. "...small groups across Khorvaire have begun duplicating the experiment that result in elemental items..." In short, Zilargo are the best in elemental binding, the most advanced... But others are starting to getting involved in this "science".
MartM 10-15-06, 03:02 AM	Sorry, Double post...
DM_Dracophile 10-15-06, 09:52 AM	Excellent! I would have missed that nugget entirely. Arigato
Edymnion 10-16-06, 09:03 PM	The Mayan pyramids are stepped or tiered. Only Egypt has the smooth sides and pointed tips. Theirs are larger too. That's one example shot to hell.Actually, the great pyramids are little more than stepped pyramids with extra blocks filling out the steps into smooth sides. Of more interest are things like the mayan crystal skull, which is carved out of a single huge quartz block, except that it is rounded and smooth in ways that even modern gemcutters can't replicate (by everything we know, the crystal should have shattered along it's fracture planes trying to get the shapes into it that the mayans did, but there they are all the same). Or damascus steel. We can reproduce the look with modern technology, but we have not been able to reproduce all of it's qualities. Or the south american "cities" that discovered a way to make self-regenerating highly nutrient rich soil. We can use what is left to make more of it, but no one knows how to make the stuff from scratch, which could potentially end the world hunger problem by allowing us to produce rich farmland wherever in the world we needed it. There is so much lost knowledge in the real world that may never be re-discovered. So yes, there are lots of things that can be copied to get the same effect, but then again, there are some things that once lost, the secret of their creation can never be found again.Magic of eberron. page 10. "...small groups across Khorvaire have begun duplicating the experiment that result in elemental items..."I think the key thing with this quote is that groups have begun to duplicate the experiements that result in binding elementals. Its not unlike saying that a backwards nation is beginning to duplicate the experiments that split the first atom, and then trying to jump to the conclusion that they have nuclear power plants and the atomic bomb. No, they are beginning to head in that direction, but they are still at the beginning of the process, and/or have had only very limited successes on a small scale. They might be able to bind a fire elemental to a sword, for example, but something on the scale of binding one into an elemental ring to power an entire airship is still years ahead of them.
ekomega 10-16-06, 10:24 PM	Or damascus steel. We can reproduce the look with modern technology, but we have not been able to reproduce all of it's qualities. They reproduced damascus steel a few years ago. A materials scientist and a metallurgist teamed up. The missing key was steel from a particular area that had a very low sulfur content and a higher than normal vanadium content. It was published in a scientific journal (I don't think Nature or Science, but maybe Acta Materialia). Check Science Direct, if you are interested. Or the south american "cities" that discovered a way to make self-regenerating highly nutrient rich soil. We can use what is left to make more of it, but no one knows how to make the stuff from scratch, which could potentially end the world hunger problem by allowing us to produce rich farmland wherever in the world we needed it. The reason we can't do this is our heavy to desire to nitrogenate the crap out of everything. Better methods of fixing nitrogen into the soil have developed as civilization has developed. Getting more yield from crops, by changing the soil, is what has allowed humankind to flourish. Unfortunately, doing this damages the soil badly after each crop and requires rotating crops and the like. South American soil is generally wetter, richer, and more nutrient filled, for lots of reasons. When the Mayans, etc., were living down there, they were getting their dirt from the rainforest (or right next to it). Things grow well in rainforest soil, since it's full of all kinds of everything. As for elemental binding, it took the gnomes a lot of time to take what they learned from Xen'drik and turn it into something useful. And they had all the notes. Others trying to reproduce the technology are just reverse-engineering. With elemental binding, House Cannith and the gnomes are selling LCD, DLP, and plasma TVs. Everyone else is still trying to build the CRT.
Kreistor1 10-17-06, 11:44 AM	Um... since when are there pyramids on Easter Island or Great Brittian? I mean, come on... there's more to building the pyramids than just moving the stone. Right, there's moving massive stones, shaping stone, and stacking it. The particulars of the shapes are only fluff. On Easter Island, with grossly limited resources, they moved blocks as large as any pyramid stone long distances and stood them on end, and capped them with little hats. The Mayan example is obvious. That they didn't shape the carve the corners into a flat pyramid is irrelevent: they had the stone shaping knowledge and could have. In Great Britain, it's Stonehenge. The rocks used for that are harder (and denser) by far than anything used in the pyramids and they weren't shaped by metal tools. I've seen one person demonstrate a simple shaping method. That they didn't place the stones in a pyramid shape doesn't mean they couldn't. They could shape the rocks, move them, and had the ability to orient and stack them. Note that I did not state that it was necessary to duplicate the specifics of one solution to demonstrate that a particular result could not be reproduced another way. Damasscus steel had a competitor we generally don't know about in the West, because it never shipped out of India. The Indians had high quality steel for longer than anyone, and it is suspected that secret of Damasscus steel was actually stolen from them. But, in the end, Europe developed the blast furnace, which could control the carbon content, and did the job much better. The point is, there is more than one way to skin a cat, and the guy that gets there first doesn't always find the best way. It is hard to figure out lost techniques, but when techniques are currently being used, it's a lot easier. Bribery works wonders. Extortion works. Industrial theft. And so on. It is very hard to keep a secret for long periods in a world where spying is common practice.
DM_Dracophile 10-17-06, 03:57 PM	facepalm What have I wrought? :(
Need_A_Life 10-20-06, 07:11 AM	DM_Dracophile: Let him seek out someone to teach him Everyone else: STOP COMPARING EBERRON TO ANCIENT EGYPT/INDIA/ENGLAND/SOUTH AMERICA (or at least make a seperate topic)! Regards, Need_A_Life
Euangelion 10-20-06, 08:38 AM	Anyway, back to the topic. First, IIRC both Magic of Eberron and PGtE mention that the Inmost will accept members of other races and that the Inmost has a good relationship with Lyrandar. But, would even the Inmost be willing to teach a member of the House the knowledge of binding, with the potential of Lyrandar no longer needing the Inmost or any other Zil organization? I'm not so sure. (On the other hand, elemental binding is a Zilargo technology, not a gnome technology. Even the writers of the sourcebooks sometimes seem to forget that saying "gnome" is not necessarily the same as saying "Zilargo.") Second, there's another way to learn the secrets of elemental binding. Steal it from the drow. That should be fun!
Ozymandias V. 10-20-06, 03:25 PM	Things grow well in rainforest soil, since it's full of all kinds of everything. Geologists say otherwise. The soil is supporting so many plants that it's pretty leeched. Most of the nutrients in the rainforest are already in the plants and such.
Edymnion 10-23-06, 01:44 AM	Geologists say otherwise. The soil is supporting so many plants that it's pretty leeched. Most of the nutrients in the rainforest are already in the plants and such.Yup, thats why slash and burn is such a problem in the rain forests. The soil is only rich and fertile while it has an active rainforest on it. Once you clear that away, the land is totally stripped of it's nutrients in only a couple years, which means you have to cut into more forest. The south american city-state that discovered how to make this self-replinishing soil that can stand up to heavy agriculture practically pulled of a miracle that even modern biologists can't reproduce.
Dr. Benway 10-23-06, 02:46 AM	Keep in mind that House Lyrander is one of the largest and most powerful organizations in the world...fully comparable to many nations in scope of both resources and influence. I honestly do not think that if those stingy midgets actually did try to keep it a secret that Lyrander wouldnt just fund spy after spy after spy until they knew the process. No matter what, no Dragonmarked house would leash themselves so completely to any single nation or group. Aside from all of that tho, the ships are keyed to Lyrander marks...they must have been present for at least the creation of the techniques that allow this. Other than that, bound elemental items, not just ships, are common enough to be in the same price range as normal magic items. That implies that enough people know how to do it to make them reasonably priced. Yes, there are plenty of precedents for elemental binding being far from a complete monopoly. That being said, who are you going to get to build your car from scratch...Joe the mechanic? Or the factory run by the transnational corporation? Just my 2 coppers... DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul who shall prevail?
Gilganarz_the_reporter 10-23-06, 05:52 AM	It has also been alluded to, in MM3 if nothing else, that the drow of Xen'drik have access to elemental binding.
Recovering_Blackguard 10-23-06, 11:22 AM	It has also been alluded to, in MM3 if nothing else, that the drow of Xen'drik have access to elemental binding. As stated in Magic of Eberron, at least some of the drow of Xen'drik know the secrets of elemental binding, because it was from them that the gnomes stole the knowledge.
Thrincold 10-23-06, 02:26 PM	Just my 2 cents, You can look at elemental binding like Nuclear power. Only a few countries have the ability to harness it. Even fewer can use it as weapons. Yet, I can find tons of information on the Internet about how to enrich uranium, create a reactor, even the early theories of nuclear bombs. Does that allow me to build any of the above? No. The same holds true with the Gnomish control of Elemental binding in Khovaire. Others have access to the benefits, can see how it is done, may even be able to watch the process. But, to replicate it is harder than it appears. Look at Iran and N. Korea right now, both can in theory use and make nuclear devices, from reactors to bombs. Neither is successful, and the weight of nations and corporations is against them succeeding. With the Trust behind the nation, their power and influence, and all of Zilargo against you, the odds are you may get a prototype, or even someone to help you. The moment you do though, there will the a Thronehold Nations security council meeting to embargo and fine you for your actions. Elemental binding has limited and dangerous uses. Why on earth would any nation allow a house to have that information. They are autonomous and dangerous as they are, giving them more power is counter-intuitive to the well being of all of Khovaire. [/rant]