Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Inkling 12-03-05, 07:13 PM	Sorcerer spell casting rules just don't make any sense. I can understand the rules from a mechanics point of view, but has anyone ever heard of something like the sorcerer spell casting rules in literature, movies, or myth? All I've ever heard about are magic systems that say you can prepare a few ritual spells at a time (like our Wizard) or you can cast a bunch of weak spells at the cost of not being able to cast higher-powered spells or use up all your magic for one big high-powered spell (like our Psion). I can't imagine any story about Merlin describing the way he performs magic the same way you would describe the sorcerer spell system. In my Eberron campaign, we eliminated the Sorcerer class entirely. We simply renamed the Psion class to "Sorcerer". The whole sorcerer-dragon-magic fluff works perfectly with the psion-crystal-emphasis in the context of Eberron's dragonshard fluff. It works so well, I wonder if Keith planned it that way... In our campaign, we only have Wizards that practice ritual magic and Sorcerers (formerly called "Psions") that practice what they call "true magic" or "dragon magic". Kobold sorcerers believe their power comes from their dragon ancenstry. Kobold sorcerers are particularly "crystal crazy", always digging thru Khyber in search of more precious dragonshards that they turn into cognizance crystals, psicrystals, etc. Various other sorcerers like the Kalashtar and Inspired have other theories saying their sorcerer magic comes from the Inner Light, will power, Xoriat, Dal Quor, Irian, etc. What are your opinions on this? Like/Dislike? Any ideas to add? Do you think WotC should do this in the 4th edition rules?
Charles Phipps 12-03-05, 08:05 PM	Weird, I replace Sorcerers with the word "Psion" and thus eliminate the Psion rules.
7sigma 12-03-05, 08:23 PM	I would like it if I didn't use psionics. But I do, and if I used that rule there would be no cool class for my beloved Inspired villains :D But I think the whole fluff of "mind power" and "force of personality" apllies beautifully to the sorcerer, and the mechanic of the psion pleases me as well. But then, it kinda loses its arcane flavor, doesn't it?
Inkling 12-03-05, 08:35 PM	But then, it kinda loses its arcane flavor, doesn't it?I agree that psionics in D&D has too much of a sci-fi flavor, but that's easily removed by changing some fluff (renaming powers mostly).
dang 12-04-05, 04:07 AM	Sorcerer spell casting rules just don't make any sense. I can understand the rules from a mechanics point of view, but has anyone ever heard of something like the sorcerer spell casting rules in literature, movies, or myth? All I've ever heard about are magic systems that say you can prepare a few ritual spells at a time (like our Wizard) or you can cast a bunch of weak spells at the cost of not being able to cast higher-powered spells or use up all your magic for one big high-powered spell (like our Psion). I can't imagine any story about Merlin describing the way he performs magic the same way you would describe the sorcerer spell system. that's funny... i think WOTC actually introduced the sorceror class, and began changing some mage and priest rules for 3E because *they* were so inconsistent with our mythos. consider: in ANY arthurian legend/fairytale/celtic myth, do you ever remember merlin/fairy godmothers/druids or witches ever saying "wait, i have to go rememorize and sleep before i can advance the plot?" No! do you ever recall in a (non D&D) movie seeing this, or per-night preparation? in literature, did andre norton, tolkien, mckiernan, um anyone, ever structure magic according to D&D mage rules? why do all video/PC games use a mana system (which is more consistent with sorcery)? because it makes more goldarn sense. why? consider realism (which i know is ridiculous since we're talking 'bout MAGIC, but still). do fighters have to relearn all their skills every night, or do they simply run out of physical energy? don't reply with a "but their skills are *physical*" argument, because that's ridiculous. ALL skills -- everything humans do -- is mental (which is biochemically physical, of course). sure, you might gradually forget some stuff gradually after cramming for an exam, but it sure ain't cuz you expended it by exercising your "fill blue-book" ability. if you're interested in an awesomely sensible portrayal of magic in high fantasy, i recommend reading the fiction of katherine kerr. all that said, i agree with phipps and yourself that psionics seems inconsistent with fantasy. isn't the definition of preternatural powers summed up in arcane terminology?
DarkWarriorKarg 12-04-05, 08:17 AM	Not necessarily. Read Katheryn Kerr's Deryni books. It's only inconsistant if you tell youself it is.
Inkling 12-04-05, 11:00 AM	D&D doesnt even say wizards "memorize" spells anymore (except in some errors)...wizards spells are prepared rituals that are triggered at the last second by "casting" the spell. And prepared ritual spells ARE a part of popular myth. The whole reason why they changed wizard spellcasting from memorized to prepared was to be more in line with popular myth. I think they should continue with that effort and eliminate the sorcerer class and use a true power point system. Granted, D&D is more than 30 year old technology now and there are far better role-playing game systems out there. Don't you think it's time D&D caught up with them?
Siran Dunmorgan 12-04-05, 12:18 PM	In literature, did Andre Norton, Tolkien, McKiernan, um anyone, ever structure magic according to D&D mage rules? No, but the Dungeons & Dragons magic system itself—memorization of spells, highly empowered items—is based directly on the works of fantasy author Jack Vance, in his "Dying Earth" stories. The original authors of Dungeons & Dragons were Jack Vance fans, and adopted his magic system for their game. The early—circa 1950—Dying Earth stories present an astonishingly familiar environment in this respect. —Siran Dunmorgan
Inkling 12-04-05, 12:57 PM	No, but the Dungeons & Dragons magic system itself—memorization of spells, highly empowered items—is based directly on the works of fantasy author Jack Vance, in his "Dying Earth" stories. The original authors of Dungeons & Dragons were Jack Vance fans, and adopted his magic system for their game. The early—circa 1950—Dying Earth stories present an astonishingly familiar environment in this respect. —Siran DunmorganI know where it comes from, I'm just saying it sucks. I'm talking about popular magic systems. :D (I'm just kidding Jack, he's more of an author than I'll ever be)
Siran Dunmorgan 12-04-05, 01:08 PM	Not necessarily. Read Katheryn Kerr's Deryni books. It's only inconsistant if you tell youself it is. I'm sorry—are you referring to Katherine Kurtz's Deryni books, or Katherine Kerr's Deverry books? Mind you, both authors and both series are very good; but they're also very different. I know where it comes from, I'm just saying it sucks. I'm talking about popular magic systems. :D (I'm just kidding Jack, he's more of an author than I'll ever be) Actually, the official material seems to be moving the other way, i.e., toward more acceptance of the Vancian system and its implications. For an example, see the spells with the [Mindset] descriptor in Races of Eberron: the [Mindset] mechanics explicitly depend upon spell preparation. —Siran Dunmorgan
makeshiftwings 12-04-05, 03:30 PM	D&D doesnt even say wizards "memorize" spells anymore (except in some errors)...wizards spells are prepared rituals that are triggered at the last second by "casting" the spell. And prepared ritual spells ARE a part of popular myth. The whole reason why they changed wizard spellcasting from memorized to prepared was to be more in line with popular myth. I think they should continue with that effort and eliminate the sorcerer class and use a true power point system. Granted, D&D is more than 30 year old technology now and there are far better role-playing game systems out there. Don't you think it's time D&D caught up with them? I don't think I've ever seen a movie or book that works that way even if you do replace the word "memorize" with "prepare". So-called ritual magic is usually just a spell with a long casting time. I've never seen Gandalf sit and "prepare" three Magic Missiles and then "speak the final word" to cast them each later. I think the Vancian system sucks, and would love to see it replaced by something more mana-ish in 4th edition, but I doubt it will be.
a_psh 12-04-05, 04:29 PM	Wizards can technically "spontaneously" (I put this in quotes to distinguish it from the rules definition) cast from their spellbooks... it just takes 15 minutes.
Siran Dunmorgan 12-04-05, 05:14 PM	I don't think I've ever seen a movie or book that works that way even if you do replace the word "memorize" with "prepare". So-called ritual magic is usually just a spell with a long casting time. I've never seen Gandalf sit and "prepare" three Magic Missiles and then "speak the final word" to cast them each later. I think the Vancian system sucks, and would love to see it replaced by something more mana-ish in 4th edition, but I doubt it will be. You're right! Too many people would deride the resulting game as not being Dungeons & Dragons. In fact, this option was considered for 3rd Edition, and discarded: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/3E_intvw_RichB.asp On the other hand, if you're interested in a spell-point based system with official status, take a look at the system presented in Unearthed Arcana: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/881560000 —Siran Dunmorgan
Arcane Guyver 12-04-05, 08:07 PM	Yes...take a look at the spell point system...then dismiss it entirely, as the system is not very well thought out, and doesn't give nearly enough spells/day compared to the spell slot system. I initially thought about replacing Sorcerers with Psions, but there's supposed to be three flavors of magic in Eberron, and messing with that would be a real shame, IMO. I find that with just a few tweaks, Sorcerers are fine. One major tweak for all spontaneous casters is to implement the 'spell-weaving' from Arcana Unearthed/Evolved. Basically, spend two lower-level spell slots to cast one higher-level spell, or use a higher level slot to cast a lower-level spell (with no change to the spell's power). In order to differentiate the Sorcerer from the Wizard, I did the following: remove the Familiar (which can be obtained easily enough at 3rd level by spending a feat) 1st: Heighten Spell (bonus feat), Eschew Materials (only applies to Sorcerer magic) 2nd: Detect Magic (supernatural, always on ability; get a replacement cantrip if need be) 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th: Bonus feat (any metamagic feat the sorcerer meets the prereqs for).
Inkling 12-04-05, 08:28 PM	Yes...take a look at the spell point system...then dismiss it entirely, as the system is not very well thought out, and doesn't give nearly enough spells/day compared to the spell slot system. I initially thought about replacing Sorcerers with Psions, but there's supposed to be three flavors of magic in Eberron, and messing with that would be a real shame, IMO. I find that with just a few tweaks, Sorcerers are fine. One major tweak for all spontaneous casters is to implement the 'spell-weaving' from Arcana Unearthed/Evolved. Basically, spend two lower-level spell slots to cast one higher-level spell, or use a higher level slot to cast a lower-level spell (with no change to the spell's power). In order to differentiate the Sorcerer from the Wizard, I did the following: remove the Familiar (which can be obtained easily enough at 3rd level by spending a feat) 1st: Heighten Spell (bonus feat), Eschew Materials (only applies to Sorcerer magic) 2nd: Detect Magic (supernatural, always on ability; get a replacement cantrip if need be) 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th: Bonus feat (any metamagic feat the sorcerer meets the prereqs for).Hey, I like that a lot! Giving sorcerers spell-weaving and eschew materials instead of a familiar really makes them more "realistic". I've always thought about giving both wizards and sorcerers a free Detect Magic or Arcane Sight at will ability. I thought about nerfing it a little by making it a feat that requires a very high Wis and needs a Spellcraft check and an expensive focus to detect anything. How does it work in your campaign, does it seem too overpowered to you?
a_psh 12-04-05, 08:47 PM	4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th: Bonus feat (any metamagic feat the sorcerer meets the prereqs for). I would change this progression to 6th, 12th, 18th at the very least... otherwise, this guy gets quite a few more feats than the wizard, which seems a bit off to me, honestly.
Inkling 12-04-05, 09:02 PM	Or maybe kick the wizard up a notch by giving him a free Apprentice (spellcaster) feat. I always thought wizards needed to be a little more knowledgable than they are.
zambuka 12-04-05, 09:44 PM	Or maybe kick the wizard up a notch by giving him a free Apprentice (spellcaster) feat. I always thought wizards needed to be a little more knowledgable than they are. To power up wizards a notch try this, something I played around with but never finished. Original thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=518238) Feat: Hermetic Magic. Requirements: Wizard. A wizard may only take this feat as one of her bonus feats or instead of scribe scroll at first level. Hermetic magic allows the wizard to cast spells directly from her book. To cast a spell she must have access to all the components and foci for the spell, she must have enough freedom of movement to cast the spell as well as sufficient light to read her book. The wizard may do this a number of times per day equal to her level. If interupted the wizard must start again using a fresh batch of components. Casting a spell like this takes more time than normal, it takes spell level times caster level in minutes to cast a spell this way. She cannot cast a spell of a higher level than she could do normally. 0 level spells count as 1st level spells when determining casting time. Spells that allow the caster to hold a charge do not work the same way when using this method of casting. The spell will release its charge instantly on completion so a wizard could not, for example, cast shocking grasp using hermetic magic and hold the charge for the duration. Spells that require concentration to maintain cannot be cast in this method either. The wizard cannot use this method of casting when creating magic items, scrolls, potions etc, she must use her prepared spells. Examples: Alarm. This is one of the simpler spells a wizard can use. A fifth level wizard wants to guard her camp with an alarm spell. She figures the the full 10 hours she can get from the spell is plenty of time so she spend the next 5 minutes (5th level caster times first level spell) casting the spell. Animate dead. The necromantic wizard can spend time before hand gathering some undead minions. It takes 35 minutes to cast and if she is interrupted she must start again. Maze. While it only takes 2 hours to cast this spell (15 x 8 = 120 minutes) you have to worry about keeping your victim still and quiet for that entire time, interuption is difficult to avoid without restraining and gagging the victim. The primary purpose of this feat is to encourage out-of-combat use of utility spells. It does require a bit of policing on the part of the GM because there is the potential for serious abuse. It also negates having to mess about with cumbersome and abuse worthy spell point/spell recharge systems that never really gel with the system that well.
a_psh 12-04-05, 09:53 PM	zambuka: Not a bad idea. Wizards can already partially do this by leaving a spell slot unfilled when they memorize spells and then spending 15 minutes later to fill it (effectively allowing them to cast it in 15 minutes), so I'm not quite sure it's necessary. But not bad, not bad! OP: If sorcerors are psions, then what are psions? Also psions, or unused? Why did you choose to use the psion rather than the wilder as the base here?
Inkling 12-04-05, 10:46 PM	If sorcerors are psions, then what are psions? Also psions, or unused? Why did you choose to use the psion rather than the wilder as the base here?The psion is still a psion too, just different fluff explaining their powers. So Kalashtar and Inspired using the sci-fi fluff call themselves "psions" and others that think of themselves as descendents of dragons or outsiders call themselves "sorcerers". The names of powers are changed for the sorcerers to make them sound more arcane. It's kind of like Warlocks getting unlimited Shatter spells but calling it "Baleful Utterance". Both psions and sorcerers use the same Psion class for the rules mechanics.
Charles Phipps 12-04-05, 11:14 PM	Psions that are Sorcerers are something that work for me because it fits what *I* think of when playing psions. Charm Person, Esp, Suggestion, Friends you can make Jean Grey. Fireball, Produce Flame, Magic Missle, you're a Pyrokinetic.
Inkling 12-04-05, 11:36 PM	Psions that are Sorcerers are something that work for me because it fits what *I* think of when playing psions. Charm Person, Esp, Suggestion, Friends you can make Jean Grey. Fireball, Produce Flame, Magic Missle, you're a Pyrokinetic.But without the spell weaving variant, aren't the sorcerer spellcasting rules clunky? Can you imagine Jean Grey saying "I can't use Charm Person on him because I've run out of strength!"..."Can you use Charm Monster on him?"..."Oh sure, I can use Charm Monster a couple more times today...just not Charm Person"..."But isn't Charm Monster a more powerful spell?"..."Yes, but I have lots of strength to cast a powerful spell, just no strength to cast a weak spell."..."Huh?" It gets even weirder when you say you can use Charm Monster or Phantasmal Killer 3 times a day and Fireball or Fly 4 times a day...but if I used up all my Fireballs (OR Fly's) for the day, I can still use my Charm Monster (OR Phantasmal Killer) 3 times today and my Charm Person (OR Sleep OR Identify) 5 times today. Not even Vance could write anything that twisted. It sounds like an Abbott & Costello bit. The whole level based power point system of the Sorcerer is just a kluge...it should be replaced with a true power point system like the Psion or the spell weaving variant from Arcana Evolved.
Charles Phipps 12-05-05, 01:07 AM	The whole level based power point system of the Sorcerer is just a kluge...it should be replaced with a true power point system like the Psion or the spell weaving variant from Arcana Evolved. Meh, I disagree. In game terms you can just really refer to it as "I have strength enough to concentrate REALLY hard for my effect but don't feel up to doing delicate work." Power Point systems always end up making it about mathmatics really and frankly, I never liked the Psion effects system as a basis. Its simple with spells "I can throw 3 fireballs"
Leonidus 12-05-05, 01:28 AM	But without the spell weaving variant, aren't the sorcerer spellcasting rules clunky? Can you imagine Jean Grey saying "I can't use Charm Person on him because I've run out of strength!"..."Can you use Charm Monster on him?"..."Oh sure, I can use Charm Monster a couple more times today...just not Charm Person"..."But isn't Charm Monster a more powerful spell?"..."Yes, but I have lots of strength to cast a powerful spell, just no strength to cast a weak spell."..."Huh?" Ummmm, actually, you CAN use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell. (It's always been that way with Sorcerers, IIRC.)
Just another user 12-05-05, 03:10 AM	But without the spell weaving variant, aren't the sorcerer spellcasting rules clunky? Can you imagine Jean Grey saying "I can't use Charm Person on him because I've run out of strength!"..."Can you use Charm Monster on him?"..."Oh sure, I can use Charm Monster a couple more times today...just not Charm Person"..."But isn't Charm Monster a more powerful spell?"..."Yes, but I have lots of strength to cast a powerful spell, just no strength to cast a weak spell."..."Huh?" If she can use charm monster she can use charm person, too. A sorcerer can always usa a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell, if she want, even if in this particolar case I can't see why she should). Beside the distinction between the two "charm" powers, expecially for a psion, happen only at rules level, a character would see them both as the same power.
Subedei 12-05-05, 03:36 AM	I've had an idea for a system involving "preparing" individual spells at various levels and then spending "mana points" to cast them rolling around in my head for quite some time but haven't been able to work out a few fundamental problems. Then again, I haven't really spent that much time thinking about it. The way I see it, the current system is like this: *The idea of outfitting your character with a versatile set of abilities and then being able to change that outfit to adapt to accomodate new general strategies is very good, you wouldn't want to lose this. It's like designing a magic deck, great fun! *Currently, higher level spells are just plain better. Under a mana/pp system the low level spells would become entirely obsolete as soon as you gained access to higher level ones. This is something I've always found annoying in MMORPGs, FF, etc. It's either this, or have everything be at the same level and accessable from the beginning of the game, but simply scale up in what it can do as you become more powerful - not a bad option. The current system is nice because it gives you far more limited access to higher level spells (they're your trump card, you use them sparringly) while the lower level ones form the backbone of what you can do and see a lot more action generally. *As expressed above, the idea of preparing spells, while a good gameplay choice, is kind of dump from a fluff. I haven't, however, seen a system that works better than this, I certainly don't think the Psionics system does. Another idea occured to me as well - combining Artificer and Sorcerer to some degree...that's right, artificer and sorcerer. I like the Artificer's in Eberron a lot but I'm talking about D&D in general here. So we have a person with some form of natural ability to work magic. What they can do isn't really up to them. So this inborn tallent is essentially the characters spell-like abilities - useable at will or a certain number of times per day. They increase in power and variety with level but they follow a certain theme. For instance, one individual may be able to control and produce fire, another might be a shapeshifter - they're like superpowers ;) Now this is obviously much more restricted than normal D&D magic. Artificer mechanics to the rescue! To overcome the limitations of what they can do naturally, mages rely on items for versatility. Scrolls, wands, potions etc. Think of all those magic users in popular literature and movies. They really do seem to have natural abilities that follow certain themes that require no spellbooks, wands or anything else to use. However, most of them seem to rely on various objects they or someone else has created quite a bit. Powerful magical rods, warding talismans, cursing scrolls, gems of apocalyptic power much saught after by evil that somehow find their way into the hands of unwitting teenagers on a regular basis... We'd just be merging two very fun styles of play and then streamlining redundant elements to create something that I think would be even more fun than either of them.
Inkling 12-05-05, 08:02 AM	Ummmm, actually, you CAN use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell. (It's always been that way with Sorcerers, IIRC.)But doesnt it make more sense that you give up a higher level power to gain more lower level powers? Like you can in the psion power point system or spell weaving variant?
Inkling 12-05-05, 08:46 AM	In game terms you can just really refer to it as "I have strength enough to concentrate REALLY hard for my effect but don't feel up to doing delicate work."Said the goblin to the ogre: "I'm not weak, I'm 'delicate'". :rofl: How is Charm Person a "delicate" version of Charm Monster. It's just weaker and it doesn't make sense that you dont have the power to cast weaker spells, but still have power to cast powerful spells.
Mula 12-05-05, 12:02 PM	Said the goblin to the ogre: "I'm not weak, I'm 'delicate'". :rofl: How is Charm Person a "delicate" version of Charm Monster. It's just weaker and it doesn't make sense that you dont have the power to cast weaker spells, but still have power to cast powerful spells. Spell Slots The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level. See?
Inkling 12-05-05, 06:54 PM	See?You've missed my point entirely. Yeah I know you can use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell. I'm saying that a power point system makes more sense because you can use a higher level spell OR several lower level spells. With a power point system 1 gallon equals 4 quarts, but in the sorcerer system 1 gallon only equals 1 quart. The sorcerer system doesnt make any sense. The psion power point system makes more sense and you don't have to leave D&D to use it (because if you wanted rules that make sense you'll have to go to Shadowrun).
Siran Dunmorgan 12-05-05, 07:47 PM	...because if you wanted rules that make sense you'll have to go to Shadowrun... The Dungeons & Dragons magic system was designed by a fan of 1950s-era fantasy. The Shadowrun magic system was designed by someone obviously well read in actual occult literature, with an emphasis on hermetic traditions like the Order Aurum Solis, and not so much on fantasy per se. Back on topic: the great difficulty in simply replacing sorcerors with psions is that, indeed, the "fluff" surrounding them in the Expanded Psionics Handbook does, then, need to be replaced. Further, there are significant distinctions between arcane magic and psionics: specifically, there is no functional equivalent to conjuration—yes, I know about shapers, but they can only produce constructs, not, for instance, celestial animals—and there are a variety of effects dealing with the elements that are not available to psions. The bottom line is that if you're not using memorized/prepared spells, and the concept of a spell-level slot for arcane magic, you're not actually playing Dungeons & Dragons: you may be playing something very like it, but not quite. Another quasi-official alternative, by the way, is found in Call of Cthulhu d20, where spells are essentially cast with ability damage, i.e., casting a spell saps one's strength, or vitality, or makes someone more irritable, or less able to concentrate. It's a moderately clever system, though I doubt many Dungeons & Dragons players would use it. —Siran Dunmorgan
Fabius Maximus 12-06-05, 11:59 AM	Further, there are significant distinctions between arcane magic and psionics: specifically, there is no functional equivalent to conjuration—yes, I know about shapers, but they can only produce constructs, not, for instance, celestial animals—and there are a variety of effects dealing with the elements that are not available to psions. Exactly. Just think about the sources of power. Sorcerers use the magic energy of their surroundings, psions tap in the power of the mind. It's just not the same, and changing the fluff may be a lot of work. I agree that the sorcerer is suboptimal. But if you are looking for a better one, try the various thread in the generel forums.
Mula 12-06-05, 01:09 PM	Further, there are significant distinctions between arcane magic and psionics: specifically, there is no functional equivalent to conjuration—yes, I know about shapers, but they can only produce constructs, not, for instance, celestial animals—and there are a variety of effects dealing with the elements that are not available to psions. Plus, psionic manifesters really don't have any illusions.
Cobu 12-06-05, 01:41 PM	I'll be honest. I don't really know much about sorcerors. However, Psion can definitely fit into fantasy. Yes they use their mind and they try to understand their brain like some sort of uber-psychologist and no their powers aren't mystical persay but that isn't the all important matter. You are simply drawing energy from yourself instead of the world around you or other planes. With the advent of Psionic races like the Kalashtar the Psions become even more fantasy oriented. These creatures and the coomon races who exhibit psionics really do fit the fantasy realm. They are special people who are adventuring in a fantasy setting. You don't hear Psions saying my medulla oblongata is responsible for my mind thrust. They don't know the brain that way. They understand their brain as a druid comes to understand the forest.
Siran Dunmorgan 12-06-05, 02:27 PM	I'll be honest. I don't really know much about sorcerors. However, Psion can definitely fit into fantasy. Yes they use their mind and they try to understand their brain like some sort of uber-psychologist and no their powers aren't mystical persay but that isn't the all important matter. You are simply drawing energy from yourself instead of the world around you or other planes. With the advent of Psionic races like the Kalashtar the Psions become even more fantasy oriented. These creatures and the coomon races who exhibit psionics really do fit the fantasy realm. They are special people who are adventuring in a fantasy setting. You don't hear Psions saying my medulla oblongata is responsible for my mind thrust. They don't know the brain that way. They understand their brain as a druid comes to understand the forest. Sure. That's part of the flavor text for Kalashtar, that they use strange words like "ectoplasm" in their day-to-day speech. I'm not supporting the point that psions have no place in the fantasy world of Eberron: I'm supporting the points that sorcerers have a separate place from psions—or wilders, for that matter—in Eberron, and that there are a number of alternatives available for players and Dungeon Masters who are concerned about the limitations of the core magic rules that incorporate both wizards and sorcerors. The principal difficulty with this latter point is that, apparently, many of the official or quasi-official "point" systems for magic are either cumbersome to use or not appropriately balanced for play. Further, the sorceror class concept is used to advantage in the Monster Manual, where a great many creatures' spell-like abilities are characterized as being cast "as a sorceror of nth level." My basic points can be summed up with: play Dungeons & Dragons. If you want to experiment with variant system, do so. I believe that replacing sorcerors with psions is more trouble than it's worth. If you want a broader fantasy texture in your magic system, here are some options.. —Siran Dunmorgan
zambuka 12-06-05, 07:21 PM	Here is a question, and perhaps some unthought of consequence of replacing the sorceror with the psion. What about dragons? They play such a huge role in the Eberron setting even if you don't end up fighting them. A dragon casts spells as a sorceror do you replace that with psion or do you leave it as sorceror? If dragon become psions then how does that change their interaction with things like the Quori? how does this change the draconic interactions with the giants in the past? The dragons taught magic to the lesser races. None of this really matters if your campaign never includes dragons or giants but it is something to think about.
Arcane Guyver 12-06-05, 09:45 PM	I would change this progression to 6th, 12th, 18th at the very least... otherwise, this guy gets quite a few more feats than the wizard, which seems a bit off to me, honestly. I don't think it's a big deal, honestly. Wizards really shouldn't be messing with most metamagic feats (better off with item creation feats & rely on metamagic rods). The way I see it, Sorcerers don't get the choice between item creation or metamagic (forget Spell Mastery), and those feats are weak anyways. If a Fighter takes Cleave, he auto-gains an extra attack if he fells an opponent, free of charge. A Sorcerer who takes Still Spell needs to expend a higher level spell slot than normal to even use it. Metamagic feats don't provide any extra power - they just allow casters to manipulate what power he already has in different ways. Freeing up the Sorcerer's level-based feats helps them diversify a bit (sort of makig up for the pathetic skill list, which I recommend expanding slightly as well - give 'em Gather Information, and maybe even Diplomacy or Intimidate).
a_psh 12-06-05, 10:16 PM	If a Fighter takes Cleave, he auto-gains an extra attack if he fells an opponent, free of charge. A Sorcerer who takes Still Spell needs to expend a higher level spell slot than normal to even use it. Metamagic feats don't provide any extra power - they just allow casters to manipulate what power he already has in different ways. Freeing up the Sorcerer's level-based feats helps them diversify a bit (sort of makig up for the pathetic skill list, which I recommend expanding slightly as well - give 'em Gather Information, and maybe even Diplomacy or Intimidate).So now you've given the sorceror more spell slots than a wizard and more metamagic feats (using which specifically disadvantages him less because he has so many damn slots)... I don't think this is a good way to balance things at all.
Setherial 12-07-05, 06:44 AM	Sorcerer spell casting rules just don't make any sense. I can understand the rules from a mechanics point of view, but has anyone ever heard of something like the sorcerer spell casting rules in literature, movies, or myth? All I've ever heard about are magic systems that say you can prepare a few ritual spells at a time (like our Wizard) or you can cast a bunch of weak spells at the cost of not being able to cast higher-powered spells or use up all your magic for one big high-powered spell (like our Psion). strange you think this, I always though of the Dnd Wizard approach as very strange and the sorcerer way more natural and familiar when comparing to what I've absorbed from books and movies. The only place I ever read about wizards preparing spells in advance and then forgetting them after they've used them (which doesn't make any sense) is in dnd novels. In movies and books spellcasters always have the right spells for the right job at the right time suggesting a system more like the sorcerer. They do get fatigued after casting very difficult spells which makes sense since it takes enormous mental control and strain. This could be compared to the sorcerers limited amount of spells. He can cast a lot of low level spells as they don't strain him much, much like solving a simple math problem, higher level spells however give him a headache and he can't cast as many of them a day as they tire him (again think of a very difficult math problem and the effect of solving many of them in the same day). A possible house rule I could live with would be connecting a fatigue system to the amount of spells a sorcerer has cast in the same day. Wizards and clerics and all classes who study spells and then can only cast them once because afterwards they forget them just don't make any sense to me. Just like the rediculous xp loss system where someone looses experience by doing something instead of gaining it because he learns by doing. Dnd has some pretty wierd stuff out there if you ask me...
Inkling 12-07-05, 09:33 AM	According to the current fluff, wizards don't "memorize" spells then "forget" them once they are cast. That was the old D&D rules (but artifacts from the old system like Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer are still hanging around). The current system is that wizards prepare rituals which are finished during the "casting" which triggers the magical effect. This goes a little more in line with popular myth (especially hermetic and ancient egyptian myths). I still dont love it, but at least it makes more sense than the current sorcerer rules of energy levels running out but still having plenty of other levels of magic to cast. Maybe the sorcerer rules are a "Quantum Theory of Magic"? I think the variant sorcerer's spellweaving and/or the psion power point system makes the most sense with current myths about spell casting. The "Sears Diehard Battery" theory of magic.
Vrellum 12-07-05, 01:45 PM	Personally, I like sorcerers and I think their spellcasting mechanics are fine. Their skills and maybe some nonspellcasting stuff could use a little work, though. I see no reason to eliminate them from the game and I would consider it quite a loss if it happened. As far as the 1 gallon = 1 quart idea. Maybe that could be changed, but then you'd have to rebalance the whole class and since I think the class works pretty well, I don't think its worth it.
Lurkalot 12-08-05, 01:57 PM	I'm with Inkling in that I find the D&D magic system hard to believe in. Especially when I've used systems like Shadowrun and Mage which allowed you more flexibility and yet were still simpler. I particularly liked how Shadowrun let you sustain as many spells as you liked, but penalised your rolls for each of them. Sadly my two attempts to adapt the D&D magic system to something more natural came up against one big barrier. You also have to play with non-magic users. The D&D system is as Inkling called it, a kludge and the purpose is to make it balanced with non-magic using classes. In most fantasy stories, wizards are more powerful than non-wizards. In D&D, they can't be or everyone plays a wizard.
Arcane Guyver 12-08-05, 05:43 PM	So now you've given the sorceror more spell slots than a wizard and more metamagic feats (using which specifically disadvantages him less because he has so many damn slots)... I don't think this is a good way to balance things at all. ...alright, maybe I'm overcompensating a bit due to my group not wanting to touch the class (and still don't). But I wanted to do something different than the old 5/10/15/20 feat progression that both Wiz's and Psions subscribe to. That was my whole point - not necessarily re-balance them, just make them something other than 'spontaneous wizards.' Nerfing it to a 5/10/15/20 progression would probably be better balanced (that's the way I always had it, actually; I just recently traded out the familiar for everything else). Oh, and to the guy who asked earlier (sorry I missed it)...I have no idea what effect the detect magic has on the campaign for a Sorcerer. However, both the Warlock and Spellthief get a similar ability at about the same level, so I'm unconcerned. Instead of "I use detect magic" at every door and chest in a dungeon, the DM just says "The door radiates magic." I bet it could make for some cool moments if the player runs into an overpowering aura and has to take a free action to suppress the ability.