elves vs. dragons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

elves vs. dragons? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sciborg2
12-27-06, 07:18 PM i think i missed this after reading the ECS, but why is there conflict between Aerenal and Argonnessen?
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer
12-27-06, 07:36 PM In a nut shell? the Dragons of Argonsen see the Undying court, imortal and with a vast colecave intelegence to equal the dragons own, as rivals for controll of the Dragonic profesy.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
12-27-06, 08:01 PM Eled makes a nice summary...it all boils down to the dragons not wanting the elves to wield that much power.

In more detail, the first elf-dragon conflict occured on Xen'drik, though the dragons were more focussed on destroying the giant civilisation and its magic.
As a remnant of giant culture, some dragons saw the need to destroy the elves' as well. Thanks to the Undying Court, the attempts have failed, but not without losses on both sides.
larskrygan
12-27-06, 09:13 PM well, the situation lessened a bit just after the D'Vol incident.

The house of Vol did put a stop to the war, we all know how it ended though :P

and how everything and everybody got better and merier afterwards:schemes:
Nature-boy
12-28-06, 01:52 PM Eled makes a nice summary...it all boils down to the dragons not wanting the elves to wield that much power.

In more detail, the first elf-dragon conflict occured on Xen'drik, though the dragons were more focussed on destroying the giant civilisation and its magic.
As a remnant of giant culture, some dragons saw the need to destroy the elves' as well. Thanks to the Undying Court, the attempts have failed, but not without losses on both sides.

So why did the dragons seek to destroy the giants? For the same reason? Too much power?
Neofish
12-28-06, 01:59 PM So why did the dragons seek to destroy the giants? For the same reason? Too much power?

Yeah, ripping a moon outta orbit seems to be a big no no.
Quasidork
12-28-06, 02:34 PM Don't forget locking a plane from ever being anything from remote. That's definitely up there with the whole moon thing.

I also don't think that the destruction of the Mark of Death family ended the Elf-Dragon conflict, but they called a temporary truce on one another as they eliminated those who would create such an "abomination" as Erandis Vol.
Godu
12-28-06, 02:45 PM The dragons went after the giants when they attempted to use the same magic that they had used against Dal Quor against the rebelling elves. The leaders of the elves had some prophesy concerning an upcoming cataclysm which is why they fled Xen’drik to Aerenal. I believe the books stated that the dragons feared that if the giants used their destructive power against a target on Eberron it would destroy the world, so they intervened in the giant – elf conflict.

My reading of the event is that the dragons were okay with the giants using their power (which the dragons had taught them) to save the world from an alien invasion (even if it did cause great destruction) but were unwilling to risk the world for merely an internal power struggle between the giants and their slaves.
androkguz
12-30-06, 03:52 PM The dragons went after the giants when they attempted to use the same magic that they had used against Dal Quor against the rebelling elves. The leaders of the elves had some prophesy concerning an upcoming cataclysm which is why they fled Xen’drik to Aerenal. I believe the books stated that the dragons feared that if the giants used their destructive power against a target on Eberron it would destroy the world, so they intervened in the giant – elf conflict.

My reading of the event is that the dragons were okay with the giants using their power (which the dragons had taught them) to save the world from an alien invasion (even if it did cause great destruction) but were unwilling to risk the world for merely an internal power struggle between the giants and their slaves.

that's right. However, the elf-dragon conflict is because the Elves have their own prophecy. That's right. The liberation of the elves from the giants began with a single leader who masterminded a plan to make thousands of his fellow spellcasters cooperate in the casting of a single spell that killed all them and gave the elves that chance to escape. That same leader (today being the most ancient of the undying) made some kind of prophecy that somehow contradicts the draconic prophecy. That's why they hate each other (specially the dragons hate the elves).
By the way, that elf's name was Aeren
Read about it in Magic of Eberron
ieattrollsforbreakfast
12-30-06, 04:25 PM that's right. However, the elf-dragon conflict is because the Elves have their own prophecy. That's right. The liberation of the elves from the giants began with a single leader who masterminded a plan to make thousands of his fellow spellcasters cooperate in the casting of a single spell that killed all them and gave the elves that chance to escape. That same leader (today being the most ancient of the undying) made some kind of prophecy that somehow contradicts the draconic prophecy. That's why they hate each other (specially the dragons hate the elves).
By the way, that elf's name was Aeren
Read about it in Magic of Eberron

The account of the legend of Aeren in Magic of Eberron contradicts every other source about the legend published previously, so its validity can be called into question, especially since many of its ideas are contradictory to some pretty fundamental aspects about Aereni tradition. A couple of the major ones are that if Aeren was the first undying, why was the Undying Court founded 14,000 years later? and how, since the deathless require the manifest zones of Irian (such as those in Aerenal) to reach their power, did Aeren become deathless in Xen'drik?
Plus, the account in MoE mentions nothing about Prophecy. In that version of the legend, Aeren made no prophecies, he simply figured out a way to use the power of sacrifice to the elves' advantage.

Read the more consistent legend here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050530a)
androkguz
12-30-06, 05:55 PM The account of the legend of Aeren in Magic of Eberron contradicts every other source about the legend published previously, so its validity can be called into question, especially since many of its ideas are contradictory to some pretty fundamental aspects about Aereni tradition. A couple of the major ones are that if Aeren was the first undying, why was the Undying Court founded 14,000 years later? and how, since the deathless require the manifest zones of Irian (such as those in Aerenal) to reach their power, did Aeren become deathless in Xen'drik?
Plus, the account in MoE mentions nothing about Prophecy. In that version of the legend, Aeren made no prophecies, he simply figured out a way to use the power of sacrifice to the elves' advantage.

Read the more consistent legend here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050530a)

It does mention a prophecy, in the sidebar on that page.
"Some say Aeren’s journal contains more than the secrets to
the Ritual of Undying. These whispers imply that the elf was
inspired with the gift of prophecy just before the first ritual
and sacrifice, and laid out a plan for the elves to follow once
they were free. Supposedly the undying now work to fulfill
this prophecy in their own patient way, and this pursuit is
what drives a faction of dragons on Argonnessen mad with
rage. This prophecy, these same scholars believe, is what has
led to the dragon assaults on Aerenal over the course of so
many years. These dragons seem to believe that the prophecy
of the Aereni conflicts in some way with the pursuit of their
own draconic Prophecy."

The journal also had the information of how to perform the mass sacrificial ritual that would create and undying (and a lot of destruction). But that same ritual could not be cast again because it implied the dead of a hundred other elves to create one deathless. So it's not strange that the elves took 14.000 to found the undying court, specially considering how the race is very fond to the "long term view". 2.000 to discover the manifest zone. 5.000 to learn that they can use the positive energy instead of the blood to create undying. 2.000 to have some undying population. 5.000 to build the City of the Dead.
With the dragons trying to destroy them that time makes some sense.
ieattrollsforbreakfast
12-30-06, 07:51 PM It does mention a prophecy, in the sidebar on that page.
"Some say Aeren’s journal contains more than the secrets to
the Ritual of Undying. These whispers imply that the elf was
inspired with the gift of prophecy just before the first ritual
and sacrifice, and laid out a plan for the elves to follow once
they were free. Supposedly the undying now work to fulfill
this prophecy in their own patient way, and this pursuit is
what drives a faction of dragons on Argonnessen mad with
rage. This prophecy, these same scholars believe, is what has
led to the dragon assaults on Aerenal over the course of so
many years. These dragons seem to believe that the prophecy
of the Aereni conflicts in some way with the pursuit of their
own draconic Prophecy."

The journal also had the information of how to perform the mass sacrificial ritual that would create and undying (and a lot of destruction). But that same ritual could not be cast again because it implied the dead of a hundred other elves to create one deathless. So it's not strange that the elves took 14.000 to found the undying court, specially considering how the race is very fond to the "long term view". 2.000 to discover the manifest zone. 5.000 to learn that they can use the positive energy instead of the blood to create undying. 2.000 to have some undying population. 5.000 to build the City of the Dead.
With the dragons trying to destroy them that time makes some sense.

Ah, I'd overlooked that sidebar! I'll concede those points then, it isn't as bad as I thought it was. Though while it is more internally consistent, it still contradicts the other sources and presents some serious problems to the growth of the Valaes Tairn and Blood of Vol religions IMO.
I think you're timeline of events is extremely pessimistic for the elves, I really doubt it would take even them 5,000 years to build a city, or 2,000 years to discover manifest zones.
The idea of a conflicting prophecy makes sense, but there's no reason why that can't work with the Dragonshards version of the history, especially since Aeren is specifically mentioned as a prophet.
Edymnion
12-30-06, 08:16 PM Reason the Dragons blasted the Giants in a nutshell:
Quori invade giant-land.
Giants are losing, they ask the dragons for aid.
Dragons give giants some kind of incredible power that allows them to banish Dal Quor.
Backlash from the severing throws giants for a loop.
Giants try to use said incredible power to rebuild, Dragons say uh uh.
Giants try to use it anyway.
Dragons beat the snot out of Giants.

My reasoning is that the Dragons taught the Giants how to use Epic level magic. The reason the Dragons are fighting the elves is because the Undying Court took the seed ideas for Epic casting, and rebuilt the techniques on their own. Dragons come after elves to stop the spread of epic magic, only by the time they get their scaley butts in gear, the Undying have already linked with the manifest zone and have built up enough Epic might to be able to properly defend themselves.

Within the manifest zone, the Undying Council is able to equal the entire combined might of the dragons (at least the amount the dragons are able to bring to bear on a remote location), but only when they are actually in Areneal and the manifest zone (which explains why they haven't actually done anything with their power, they can't use it outside of the manifest zone).
The White Sorcerer
12-31-06, 11:04 AM A note on the forces of Argonnessen: The dragons don't have one monolithic culture and nation, so it is entirely possible that only a small part of them waged war against the elves.
Edymnion
12-31-06, 12:25 PM A note on the forces of Argonnessen: The dragons don't have one monolithic culture and nation, so it is entirely possible that only a small part of them waged war against the elves.That one is more DM dependant, IMO.
In my games, the dragons *ARE* a unified culture. There are various aspects and sub-groups, but when all is said and done, they are the Dragons.

Rather like America. Lots of differant groups, lots of differant ideals and left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, but if there's a threat, you get a unified front ready to kick your ass.
Neochronic
12-31-06, 09:24 PM That one is more DM dependant, IMO.
In my games, the dragons *ARE* a unified culture. There are various aspects and sub-groups, but when all is said and done, they are the Dragons.

Rather like America. Lots of differant groups, lots of differant ideals and left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, but if there's a threat, you get a unified front ready to kick your ass.

Oh... That is so how it will work in my game now. :D

And beware: That unified front ready to kick your ass is Dragons!
Manyfist
01-01-07, 02:39 AM Reason the Dragons blasted the Giants in a nutshell:
Quori invade giant-land.
Giants are losing, they ask the dragons for aid.
Dragons give giants some kind of incredible power that allows them to banish Dal Quor.
Backlash from the severing throws giants for a loop.
Giants try to use said incredible power to rebuild, Dragons say uh uh.
Giants try to use it anyway.
Dragons beat the snot out of Giants.

The Gaints weren't losing the War v. Quori when they ask for magic. The Giants had Magic for 20,000 years before the Quori invaded. Dragons sat back and let it happen intill the Giants were about to cause the apocalypse when the Elves rebeled. So then the Dragons went down and beat the snot out of theG Giants. So bad it DE-EVOLVED them... that must of been one major arse kicking. :D
ArcTan
01-01-07, 09:13 PM Reason the Dragons blasted the Giants in a nutshell:
Quori invade giant-land.
Giants are losing, they ask the dragons for aid.
Dragons give giants some kind of incredible power that allows them to banish Dal Quor.
Backlash from the severing throws giants for a loop.
Giants try to use said incredible power to rebuild, Dragons say uh uh.
Giants try to use it anyway.
Dragons beat the snot out of Giants.

Err, the dragons never directly gave the giants this incredible power. The dragons taught the giants many secrets of arcane magic at the beginning of their civilization, sure. But the giants invented the secret used against the quori *themselves*, at a time many thousands of years later, when it's implied the giants had grown sophisticated, independent, and estranged from their former mentors.

The dragons aren't said to have intervened in the quori war *at all* until the point at which the giants turn their secret weapon against the elves. *Not* to rebuild their culture per se. Their culture's been greatly eroded and destroyed, yes, which is what enables the elven rebellion against them -- but the use of their power was clearly going to be a destructive one, one intended to destroy the elven resistance, not a constructive one (rebuild the cities or whatever). The implication, at least to me, is that if the nature of this weapon is to throw planes out of whack, what the giants were planning to do may have been as drastic as dividing Eberron into multiple planes and exiling the elves into some kind of prison dimension. Whatever it was, it was something that was going to threaten the fabric of existence on Eberron as the dragons had known it.

In any case, this version of events differs importantly from yours, mainly in that it makes the dragons appear a lot less capricious (they never *gave* the giants this power, they may never have wanted the giants to use it at all, and in any case they don't get involved at all until the giants are clearly going to do something terrible to the nature of the Material Plane itself). It also makes the giants appear less sympathetic or pitiable -- they are, after all, using this power not to generically "rebuild their civilization" but to lay waste to a whole race of former slaves -- and using a power they developed *themselves* and probably were aware of the deadly potential of.
ArcTan
01-01-07, 09:15 PM That one is more DM dependant, IMO.
In my games, the dragons *ARE* a unified culture. There are various aspects and sub-groups, but when all is said and done, they are the Dragons.

Rather like America. Lots of differant groups, lots of differant ideals and left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, but if there's a threat, you get a unified front ready to kick your ass.

*shrug* I picture NATO more than the USA. The USA is clearly a single nation with a comparatively unified culture, when all is said and done (surely more monolithic than, say, the EU). Whereas I do expect there to be large "nations" of dragons in Argonnessen that rarely communicate with each other and have wholly different leadership and ideals, who only collaborate with each other when there's a threat to Argonnessen as a whole.
Psionycx
01-01-07, 09:39 PM It's worth noting that even if Aeren became deathless, then it doesn't completely follow that the Undying Court dates from that moment, any more than one dates the beginning of the Kingdom of Galifar from the departure of human colonists from Sarlona.

Assuming the elven culture was not set from the beginning, and that it evolves more slowly than that of humans, it may have taken some time for the structure of the Undying Court to develop.

One possibility is that, like liches, the Undying Counselors are not "immortal" in the sense that they are eternally unchanging. Over time some seem to become Ascendant Couselors and perhaps beyond that lies some kind of abstract state not unlike a demilich?

If Aeren and the earliest deathless eventually achieved some kind of transcendent state where they became unresponsive to concerns on the material plane, the elves would have had to develop some kind of succession system to cope with the fact that the deathless eventually move on to another plane.

Hence the later rise of the Undying Court. It wasn't needed in the beginning because the first deathless were around. But as they gradually ascended other deathless would need to take their places. Note how this fits with the elven belief that becoming deathless is just part of a journey to divinity.

As for the dragons, they may have simply been hostile to magic-using "lesser races", especially in light of what happened with the giants. The fact that Aerenal is fairly close to Argonnessen and had valuable natural resources in the form of dragonshards and manifest zones may not have helped either.
Dr. Benway
01-02-07, 02:32 AM That one is more DM dependant, IMO.
In my games, the dragons *ARE* a unified culture. There are various aspects and sub-groups, but when all is said and done, they are the Dragons.

Rather like America. Lots of differant groups, lots of differant ideals and left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, but if there's a threat, you get a unified front ready to kick your ass.

Just keep in mind that is Not cannon tho. That is your personal interpretation. The cannon interpretation supports the previous comment, that the dragons are NOT a unified force.

DocB
:88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sciborg2 12-27-06, 07:18 PM	i think i missed this after reading the ECS, but why is there conflict between Aerenal and Argonnessen?
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 12-27-06, 07:36 PM	In a nut shell? the Dragons of Argonsen see the Undying court, imortal and with a vast colecave intelegence to equal the dragons own, as rivals for controll of the Dragonic profesy.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 12-27-06, 08:01 PM	Eled makes a nice summary...it all boils down to the dragons not wanting the elves to wield that much power. In more detail, the first elf-dragon conflict occured on Xen'drik, though the dragons were more focussed on destroying the giant civilisation and its magic. As a remnant of giant culture, some dragons saw the need to destroy the elves' as well. Thanks to the Undying Court, the attempts have failed, but not without losses on both sides.
larskrygan 12-27-06, 09:13 PM	well, the situation lessened a bit just after the D'Vol incident. The house of Vol did put a stop to the war, we all know how it ended though :P and how everything and everybody got better and merier afterwards:schemes:
Nature-boy 12-28-06, 01:52 PM	Eled makes a nice summary...it all boils down to the dragons not wanting the elves to wield that much power. In more detail, the first elf-dragon conflict occured on Xen'drik, though the dragons were more focussed on destroying the giant civilisation and its magic. As a remnant of giant culture, some dragons saw the need to destroy the elves' as well. Thanks to the Undying Court, the attempts have failed, but not without losses on both sides. So why did the dragons seek to destroy the giants? For the same reason? Too much power?
Neofish 12-28-06, 01:59 PM	So why did the dragons seek to destroy the giants? For the same reason? Too much power? Yeah, ripping a moon outta orbit seems to be a big no no.
Quasidork 12-28-06, 02:34 PM	Don't forget locking a plane from ever being anything from remote. That's definitely up there with the whole moon thing. I also don't think that the destruction of the Mark of Death family ended the Elf-Dragon conflict, but they called a temporary truce on one another as they eliminated those who would create such an "abomination" as Erandis Vol.
Godu 12-28-06, 02:45 PM	The dragons went after the giants when they attempted to use the same magic that they had used against Dal Quor against the rebelling elves. The leaders of the elves had some prophesy concerning an upcoming cataclysm which is why they fled Xen’drik to Aerenal. I believe the books stated that the dragons feared that if the giants used their destructive power against a target on Eberron it would destroy the world, so they intervened in the giant – elf conflict. My reading of the event is that the dragons were okay with the giants using their power (which the dragons had taught them) to save the world from an alien invasion (even if it did cause great destruction) but were unwilling to risk the world for merely an internal power struggle between the giants and their slaves.
androkguz 12-30-06, 03:52 PM	The dragons went after the giants when they attempted to use the same magic that they had used against Dal Quor against the rebelling elves. The leaders of the elves had some prophesy concerning an upcoming cataclysm which is why they fled Xen’drik to Aerenal. I believe the books stated that the dragons feared that if the giants used their destructive power against a target on Eberron it would destroy the world, so they intervened in the giant – elf conflict. My reading of the event is that the dragons were okay with the giants using their power (which the dragons had taught them) to save the world from an alien invasion (even if it did cause great destruction) but were unwilling to risk the world for merely an internal power struggle between the giants and their slaves. that's right. However, the elf-dragon conflict is because the Elves have their own prophecy. That's right. The liberation of the elves from the giants began with a single leader who masterminded a plan to make thousands of his fellow spellcasters cooperate in the casting of a single spell that killed all them and gave the elves that chance to escape. That same leader (today being the most ancient of the undying) made some kind of prophecy that somehow contradicts the draconic prophecy. That's why they hate each other (specially the dragons hate the elves). By the way, that elf's name was Aeren Read about it in Magic of Eberron
ieattrollsforbreakfast 12-30-06, 04:25 PM	that's right. However, the elf-dragon conflict is because the Elves have their own prophecy. That's right. The liberation of the elves from the giants began with a single leader who masterminded a plan to make thousands of his fellow spellcasters cooperate in the casting of a single spell that killed all them and gave the elves that chance to escape. That same leader (today being the most ancient of the undying) made some kind of prophecy that somehow contradicts the draconic prophecy. That's why they hate each other (specially the dragons hate the elves). By the way, that elf's name was Aeren Read about it in Magic of Eberron The account of the legend of Aeren in Magic of Eberron contradicts every other source about the legend published previously, so its validity can be called into question, especially since many of its ideas are contradictory to some pretty fundamental aspects about Aereni tradition. A couple of the major ones are that if Aeren was the first undying, why was the Undying Court founded 14,000 years later? and how, since the deathless require the manifest zones of Irian (such as those in Aerenal) to reach their power, did Aeren become deathless in Xen'drik? Plus, the account in MoE mentions nothing about Prophecy. In that version of the legend, Aeren made no prophecies, he simply figured out a way to use the power of sacrifice to the elves' advantage. Read the more consistent legend here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050530a)
androkguz 12-30-06, 05:55 PM	The account of the legend of Aeren in Magic of Eberron contradicts every other source about the legend published previously, so its validity can be called into question, especially since many of its ideas are contradictory to some pretty fundamental aspects about Aereni tradition. A couple of the major ones are that if Aeren was the first undying, why was the Undying Court founded 14,000 years later? and how, since the deathless require the manifest zones of Irian (such as those in Aerenal) to reach their power, did Aeren become deathless in Xen'drik? Plus, the account in MoE mentions nothing about Prophecy. In that version of the legend, Aeren made no prophecies, he simply figured out a way to use the power of sacrifice to the elves' advantage. Read the more consistent legend here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050530a) It does mention a prophecy, in the sidebar on that page. "Some say Aeren’s journal contains more than the secrets to the Ritual of Undying. These whispers imply that the elf was inspired with the gift of prophecy just before the first ritual and sacrifice, and laid out a plan for the elves to follow once they were free. Supposedly the undying now work to fulfill this prophecy in their own patient way, and this pursuit is what drives a faction of dragons on Argonnessen mad with rage. This prophecy, these same scholars believe, is what has led to the dragon assaults on Aerenal over the course of so many years. These dragons seem to believe that the prophecy of the Aereni conflicts in some way with the pursuit of their own draconic Prophecy." The journal also had the information of how to perform the mass sacrificial ritual that would create and undying (and a lot of destruction). But that same ritual could not be cast again because it implied the dead of a hundred other elves to create one deathless. So it's not strange that the elves took 14.000 to found the undying court, specially considering how the race is very fond to the "long term view". 2.000 to discover the manifest zone. 5.000 to learn that they can use the positive energy instead of the blood to create undying. 2.000 to have some undying population. 5.000 to build the City of the Dead. With the dragons trying to destroy them that time makes some sense.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 12-30-06, 07:51 PM	It does mention a prophecy, in the sidebar on that page. "Some say Aeren’s journal contains more than the secrets to the Ritual of Undying. These whispers imply that the elf was inspired with the gift of prophecy just before the first ritual and sacrifice, and laid out a plan for the elves to follow once they were free. Supposedly the undying now work to fulfill this prophecy in their own patient way, and this pursuit is what drives a faction of dragons on Argonnessen mad with rage. This prophecy, these same scholars believe, is what has led to the dragon assaults on Aerenal over the course of so many years. These dragons seem to believe that the prophecy of the Aereni conflicts in some way with the pursuit of their own draconic Prophecy." The journal also had the information of how to perform the mass sacrificial ritual that would create and undying (and a lot of destruction). But that same ritual could not be cast again because it implied the dead of a hundred other elves to create one deathless. So it's not strange that the elves took 14.000 to found the undying court, specially considering how the race is very fond to the "long term view". 2.000 to discover the manifest zone. 5.000 to learn that they can use the positive energy instead of the blood to create undying. 2.000 to have some undying population. 5.000 to build the City of the Dead. With the dragons trying to destroy them that time makes some sense. Ah, I'd overlooked that sidebar! I'll concede those points then, it isn't as bad as I thought it was. Though while it is more internally consistent, it still contradicts the other sources and presents some serious problems to the growth of the Valaes Tairn and Blood of Vol religions IMO. I think you're timeline of events is extremely pessimistic for the elves, I really doubt it would take even them 5,000 years to build a city, or 2,000 years to discover manifest zones. The idea of a conflicting prophecy makes sense, but there's no reason why that can't work with the Dragonshards version of the history, especially since Aeren is specifically mentioned as a prophet.
Edymnion 12-30-06, 08:16 PM	Reason the Dragons blasted the Giants in a nutshell: Quori invade giant-land. Giants are losing, they ask the dragons for aid. Dragons give giants some kind of incredible power that allows them to banish Dal Quor. Backlash from the severing throws giants for a loop. Giants try to use said incredible power to rebuild, Dragons say uh uh. Giants try to use it anyway. Dragons beat the snot out of Giants. My reasoning is that the Dragons taught the Giants how to use Epic level magic. The reason the Dragons are fighting the elves is because the Undying Court took the seed ideas for Epic casting, and rebuilt the techniques on their own. Dragons come after elves to stop the spread of epic magic, only by the time they get their scaley butts in gear, the Undying have already linked with the manifest zone and have built up enough Epic might to be able to properly defend themselves. Within the manifest zone, the Undying Council is able to equal the entire combined might of the dragons (at least the amount the dragons are able to bring to bear on a remote location), but only when they are actually in Areneal and the manifest zone (which explains why they haven't actually done anything with their power, they can't use it outside of the manifest zone).
The White Sorcerer 12-31-06, 11:04 AM	A note on the forces of Argonnessen: The dragons don't have one monolithic culture and nation, so it is entirely possible that only a small part of them waged war against the elves.
Edymnion 12-31-06, 12:25 PM	A note on the forces of Argonnessen: The dragons don't have one monolithic culture and nation, so it is entirely possible that only a small part of them waged war against the elves.That one is more DM dependant, IMO. In my games, the dragons ARE a unified culture. There are various aspects and sub-groups, but when all is said and done, they are the Dragons. Rather like America. Lots of differant groups, lots of differant ideals and left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, but if there's a threat, you get a unified front ready to kick your ass.
Neochronic 12-31-06, 09:24 PM	That one is more DM dependant, IMO. In my games, the dragons ARE a unified culture. There are various aspects and sub-groups, but when all is said and done, they are the Dragons. Rather like America. Lots of differant groups, lots of differant ideals and left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, but if there's a threat, you get a unified front ready to kick your ass. Oh... That is so how it will work in my game now. :D And beware: That unified front ready to kick your ass is Dragons!
Manyfist 01-01-07, 02:39 AM	Reason the Dragons blasted the Giants in a nutshell: Quori invade giant-land. Giants are losing, they ask the dragons for aid. Dragons give giants some kind of incredible power that allows them to banish Dal Quor. Backlash from the severing throws giants for a loop. Giants try to use said incredible power to rebuild, Dragons say uh uh. Giants try to use it anyway. Dragons beat the snot out of Giants. The Gaints weren't losing the War v. Quori when they ask for magic. The Giants had Magic for 20,000 years before the Quori invaded. Dragons sat back and let it happen intill the Giants were about to cause the apocalypse when the Elves rebeled. So then the Dragons went down and beat the snot out of theG Giants. So bad it DE-EVOLVED them... that must of been one major arse kicking. :D
ArcTan 01-01-07, 09:13 PM	Reason the Dragons blasted the Giants in a nutshell: Quori invade giant-land. Giants are losing, they ask the dragons for aid. Dragons give giants some kind of incredible power that allows them to banish Dal Quor. Backlash from the severing throws giants for a loop. Giants try to use said incredible power to rebuild, Dragons say uh uh. Giants try to use it anyway. Dragons beat the snot out of Giants. Err, the dragons never directly gave the giants this incredible power. The dragons taught the giants many secrets of arcane magic at the beginning of their civilization, sure. But the giants invented the secret used against the quori themselves, at a time many thousands of years later, when it's implied the giants had grown sophisticated, independent, and estranged from their former mentors. The dragons aren't said to have intervened in the quori war at all until the point at which the giants turn their secret weapon against the elves. Not to rebuild their culture per se. Their culture's been greatly eroded and destroyed, yes, which is what enables the elven rebellion against them -- but the use of their power was clearly going to be a destructive one, one intended to destroy the elven resistance, not a constructive one (rebuild the cities or whatever). The implication, at least to me, is that if the nature of this weapon is to throw planes out of whack, what the giants were planning to do may have been as drastic as dividing Eberron into multiple planes and exiling the elves into some kind of prison dimension. Whatever it was, it was something that was going to threaten the fabric of existence on Eberron as the dragons had known it. In any case, this version of events differs importantly from yours, mainly in that it makes the dragons appear a lot less capricious (they never gave the giants this power, they may never have wanted the giants to use it at all, and in any case they don't get involved at all until the giants are clearly going to do something terrible to the nature of the Material Plane itself). It also makes the giants appear less sympathetic or pitiable -- they are, after all, using this power not to generically "rebuild their civilization" but to lay waste to a whole race of former slaves -- and using a power they developed themselves and probably were aware of the deadly potential of.
ArcTan 01-01-07, 09:15 PM	That one is more DM dependant, IMO. In my games, the dragons ARE a unified culture. There are various aspects and sub-groups, but when all is said and done, they are the Dragons. Rather like America. Lots of differant groups, lots of differant ideals and left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, but if there's a threat, you get a unified front ready to kick your ass. shrug I picture NATO more than the USA. The USA is clearly a single nation with a comparatively unified culture, when all is said and done (surely more monolithic than, say, the EU). Whereas I do expect there to be large "nations" of dragons in Argonnessen that rarely communicate with each other and have wholly different leadership and ideals, who only collaborate with each other when there's a threat to Argonnessen as a whole.
Psionycx 01-01-07, 09:39 PM	It's worth noting that even if Aeren became deathless, then it doesn't completely follow that the Undying Court dates from that moment, any more than one dates the beginning of the Kingdom of Galifar from the departure of human colonists from Sarlona. Assuming the elven culture was not set from the beginning, and that it evolves more slowly than that of humans, it may have taken some time for the structure of the Undying Court to develop. One possibility is that, like liches, the Undying Counselors are not "immortal" in the sense that they are eternally unchanging. Over time some seem to become Ascendant Couselors and perhaps beyond that lies some kind of abstract state not unlike a demilich? If Aeren and the earliest deathless eventually achieved some kind of transcendent state where they became unresponsive to concerns on the material plane, the elves would have had to develop some kind of succession system to cope with the fact that the deathless eventually move on to another plane. Hence the later rise of the Undying Court. It wasn't needed in the beginning because the first deathless were around. But as they gradually ascended other deathless would need to take their places. Note how this fits with the elven belief that becoming deathless is just part of a journey to divinity. As for the dragons, they may have simply been hostile to magic-using "lesser races", especially in light of what happened with the giants. The fact that Aerenal is fairly close to Argonnessen and had valuable natural resources in the form of dragonshards and manifest zones may not have helped either.
Dr. Benway 01-02-07, 02:32 AM	That one is more DM dependant, IMO. In my games, the dragons ARE a unified culture. There are various aspects and sub-groups, but when all is said and done, they are the Dragons. Rather like America. Lots of differant groups, lots of differant ideals and left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, but if there's a threat, you get a unified front ready to kick your ass. Just keep in mind that is Not cannon tho. That is your personal interpretation. The cannon interpretation supports the previous comment, that the dragons are NOT a unified force. DocB :88E: vs :coolcthul Who shall prevail?